Call Me Limbo
Call Me Limbo is your weekly dose of comedic therapy where pop culture and politics get tossed in a blender with personal stories, improv games, and zero chill. Hosted by Dai and David—two queer best friends with more opinions than filter—the show tackles everything from reality TV and music videos to capitalist hellscapes and Bad Bunny’s underwear.
It’s entertainment with a little revolution on the side.
Sometimes you’ll laugh until you cry. Sometimes you’ll cry until you’re organizing a union. Either way, we’re here for the drama, the joy, and the work of building a better world—with jokes. Always with jokes.
We believe the personal is political, but also… pop culture is too damn fun to ignore. So whether you’re here for the Disney Channel wand impressions or a fiery takedown of billionaires—welcome. You’ve found your people because when they go low.....we go lower. So, Call Me Limbo!
Call Me Limbo
Call Me Queer Sex Education with Nick/Nicole Castro
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This week, Dai and David are joined by one of their favorite returning guests, Nick/Nicole Castro. Nick is a communications expert and our go-to person for all things kink, non-monogamy, and sex. In this very spicy episode, we get into Ludacris lyrics, the refractory period, penis cartoons, the need for inclusive and comprehensive sex education, how to get pregnant, having sex with a sock, fear of sexually transmitted diseases, queer connection education, having a relationship with yourself, being a gynosexual, representation in porn, puberty, installing computer viruses on the home computer as a teenager, consent language, navigating labels and language in queer identity, measuring risk, showing grace, communication tools for intimacy, and much much more.
Listen to Nick's original CML episode on kink and non-monogamy!
Check Out Nick's Website - New Worlds Together!
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Theme Music by Aidan Ivory Edwards.
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Hello and welcome to another episode of your favorite podcast. It's your boy Day.
SPEAKER_02And I'm David, and together we want to talk about sex, baby. Sex education, that is. This is Call Me Limbo. Today, and I I'm I'm busting out the deep, sexy, raspy voice for you today. That's how sexy I'm feeling. But we have a great guest lined up for you today to talk about sex ed with us. And it's someone who you've heard before. They are, I'll read their, I'll read their bio again. You've heard it before, but they're a communications expert. They're a cat parent. They're our kink and non-monogamy correspondent. Nick slash Nicole Castro is here. Nick slash Nicole Castro, she they is a gender queer, bisexual, biracial, polyam, neurodivergent, trans queerling who brings a lens of embodiment and mindfulness to study violence used as communication. As a relational communication expert with New Worlds Together, Nick helps individuals and groups align their intention and their impact in the world. They seek to make the revolution sustainable through co-created spaces that invite and teach people how to practice new nonviolent forms of self-expression across their relationships and community organizing. They delight in finding spirituality and magic in all things in her sacred rest time. She reads sci-fi and fantasy, practices tai chi and rides her motorcycle. So Nick, welcome back to Call Me Limbo.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, thanks for agreeing to do this with us. We were like, who would be the perfect person to talk to us about what was left out of the sex education curriculum? And we thought of you. So you grew up in Texas. And so I I'm really curious like what your sex education looked like growing up. Did you have did you have sex education?
SPEAKER_00I think y'all will be very tickled to hear that. Um like technically everyone's gonna get a sex education from somewhere. And so it's fitting that my answer is uh my sex education was a ludicrous lyrics and things I overheard on the back of the band bus. That's where I learned about sex. And I'm doing surprisingly well given that platform. Yeah. Oh my gosh, what was the ludicrous lyric? Uh lady in the street but a freak in the bed.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00That was right, like that was my entire takeaway of like what the ideal sexual femme being would be is a lady in the street but a freak in the bed.
SPEAKER_04So you had a lot of catching up to do as a doll who kicked that.
SPEAKER_00Oh, did I? Like, it's it's such a funny thing because I now looking back, knowing I was neurodivergent, like my whole approach to figuring out sex was like this like like listening to what all the other kids were talking about, and then like going home. And I didn't even like we did like the internet wasn't popping as much back then. Like I didn't like Google it or anything else, but just like I just like listen and try to like like a squirrel, like gather, gather little bits of context and try to like piece it together. Like if you can imagine in my head, there is one of those like um conspiracy theorist boards with a bunch of red yarn and it's like busy being like, okay, well, they they use this term blowjob, and that seems to indicate like like really just trying to create data out of basically nothing. Um so it really was kind of like a DIY version, and because the the things I remember on the more formal side were just that we had a health class, and there technically was a chapter on sexual re or on like reproduction. And like I remember like trying to like flip to it subtly and like be on like I'd hold like the page that I was supposed to be on and then like flip to that section. Yeah, that's where I learned the term refractory period that's stuck in there from like sophomore years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00I remember that. Um yeah, yep, it's little things, little things stuck. Um, and then you know, like I didn't really get anything from my parents, and it's it's a place where I don't know if they if that was like a choice or they just felt uncomfortable with it, as I'm sure many parents do. Um I have just like this one partially like horrible memory of going to my mom being like, why are boys and girls' parts different? And mom was like, Well, you know how one's kind of shaped like a stick and one's kind of shaped like a cup, and that's when I ran out of the room. Like that was like that was the whole that was the whole thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So interesting.
SPEAKER_00Um my gosh. I think DIY is probably the best description for that. Um I think yeah, Texas public schools really don't build it into the curriculum.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think that's the case for a lot of queer people, whereas like we do have to learn it ourselves. I was like, I remember my dad was an anatomy and physiology teacher. Oh funny. So I asked when I was like six years old, hey, where do babies come from? And my parents were like, Do you really want to know? And I said, I want to know. And so they told me and I didn't believe them. And then I later got in trouble at a sleepover for telling my friend how babies were born. But I but I remember in fifth grade we got separated by the boys went in one room and the girls went into the other room. And which I'm like, it would have been really helpful to have all of us in the same room, I think. But they gave us these little pamphlets, and I remember being hypnotized by the penis cartoon picture in fifth grade. David. Yes. And then all of the girls, when they came back, we wanted to swap pamphlets. So we were like, oh my gosh, like I want, I want us to be the see the the Is that the original?
SPEAKER_00Show me yours, I'll show you mine. Like your pamphlets.
SPEAKER_02Basically, basically contraband. And then in, I think it was eighth grade, we we like it. This was in Nebraska. So like they had to send home a like a piece of paper, a permission slip for the gym teacher to teach us sex education. And like I remember taking it home, and my parents were like, yeah, that's fine. It's probably not anything that like you haven't heard. And it it was pretty much everything that I'd already heard. Because it was very heterosexual. It was very based in heterosexuality.
SPEAKER_00Even the division of the rooms is like one, it's it's it's and it's cis cisgendered uh heterosexuality, right? Like assuming that all the boys in that room have penises, um, much like we were not even worried about intersex kids yet, um if they even know that they're intersex, and then that everyone over here is gonna have a vulva and a vagina and all these parts, and we separate them because they are inherently attracted to each other, right? Like it's yeah, every premise there is faulty.
SPEAKER_02Yes, completely agree. And then it's like my gym teacher was like, Now, do you know where to go if you ever need to buy a condom? And everyone's like, um, I don't know. And he said, You go to the Minimart gas station bathroom and you can buy them for a quarter. That was kind of precious.
SPEAKER_04I mean, he was trying to remove the shame, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So he was doing his best, and that's what he had to give.
SPEAKER_02That's where he got his. Um at least your brain.
unknownGo ahead.
SPEAKER_00Advocating of like, here's how to get what you need for safe sex, right? Like the the again, the direction's good, the execution a little sloppy, but yeah. Um yeah, what about you, Day?
SPEAKER_04I never questioned the separation of the gender until just now, like having hearing this conversation. And I'm like, because like it was just the norm. So I never really thought about it until you know my 2026 lens. And now that I think about it, I think hearing this, everything we've talked about so far, you actually make it more of a thing and you make it more stressful. And it's like, I can understand there are aspects of it that maybe you want. I can understand the good faith conversation about having it being separated. Um, but I actually think that it would be helpful for everyone to know a little bit about everything. Like, what is menstruation? What does that look like? What does it mean from a physical standpoint? Take away like the shame or the giggles about it. And then it's like, well, what is ejaculation? What is refractory period? What are these things so that people know and it's not some guessing game? And I think that by making it taboo, you make it more interesting, but you send people in there less prepared. And so my thing is why not express it in a respectful, adult manner, talk about what these urges are, talk about these feelings, and then talk about how do you navigate that in a healthy way, whether it's masturbate masturbation, you know, whether it's sexual engagement. Because of course, no one is trying to encourage young children to be sexually engaged with each other, but you're also creating this like ooh la la thing on the side where it's like now they want to try it because it's dangerous, or people tell you you can't do it, but now they're doing it in ways that are like not safe.
SPEAKER_00That's the thing, and like I I do want to come back to your story. Like, the almost the energy that we started with here is like kids are going to get a sexual education from somewhere. Yeah. You like adults, some of the only control you have is like where it starts and how you set them up to navigate the rest of it, right? Like, do you have you if you so we had this idea, and maybe it's you know, smaller groups, so it's not like the whole, all the I don't know. It also really depends on what's age appropriate to when this conversation's gonna be having. Because like even fifth grade to a freshman in high school is very different. Um, and like especially once they get to high school, like there it is, like sex drives are kicked in, and we can't pretend that it's not gonna we a lot of people like to pretend it's not people, those kids aren't gonna be having sex with each other in the thick of it. Right.
SPEAKER_02No, uh I was having sex with a sock.
SPEAKER_00Nah, good old sock. Where is the new button? Hang on. My poem or my but the the the thing for me is that like, you know, if we didn't, like you're saying, like mystify it, and you know, it's like, oh, well, you know, men don't talk about menstruation. And like, I'm just thinking about all the places where, you know, I've had young girls like women under 18 act uh, you know, they don't they don't know, like someone told them that, you know, oh well, you can only get pregnant if they come, like they're not talking about pre-com and like, right? Like just all these, there's all these ways that we can, you know, better care for ourselves if we did have all the information on how it worked, right? Um, and so yeah, that to your point of like everyone needs a little bit of everything, then you can really have that chance to both know kind of what what's normal and what's not, what you like and what you don't. Um, and even especially coming from Texas, like how your own anatomy works, right? Because like, let's talk about all of it.
SPEAKER_04Um I would say my piece to kind of answer your question, please, and before we kind of dive deeper into what we would want it to be and what we needed, is I would say I think I walked away the most with fear, and that's still something that I deal with today. Like, I'm like I all I feared was like disease, disease, and disease didn't matter. Like in my head, there was no protection. That was enough. And so like I just abstained from engaging in anything sexual because I was just terrified. And I still had that that fear or impetus at times, and it's something that I think as an adult I'm trying to work on because I'm like, it's not gonna just magically go away because I get married or something. It's like, no, I have to like really confront this. It's something that I've learned that not engaging in sex if that's gonna be your choice, that's your choice. But then you real have to realize that if it's rooted in fear, that when you decide to do things like that, that fear doesn't just go away. Like it's still there, and so now you have a negative connotation around sex, and then you can't enjoy it because it's now become this thing that isn't viewed in the context and the like that it should be viewed. And so, yeah, that's something that I think my education really just stressed was disease. And I mean, in some ways, I guess it saved me from certain things. Like I didn't engage in certain high-risk behaviors, but it's also like you also effed up my psyche and like at what cost, right?
SPEAKER_00Like, um, you know, it's like, yeah, we really want to convince kids not to play with tigers because they might get bit, but now they avoid everything all the way down to a kitty cat, right? Like, yeah, what if we had something that was right-sized? Um, and again, you'd really want to get with like a child psychologist of like what the best ways to deliver these messages are at different ages. Um, but you know, we part of high school is learning like critical thinking skills and so how to give and like you know, lead uh children through that discernment process, again, like giving them the tools that they're gonna need for the rest of their lives, whether they choose to engage in sexual activity or not. Right. Like, like here, let's build you a toolbox so that because again, like as a parent or as a um an educator, it's like we're not gonna be with you all the time. Like, we want to really send you out into the world, maybe not immediately, but over time, so that you you trust yourself to make these discernments and and decide what's best for you.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04So I guess transitioning in from that, I like what you said, is like while we're focusing on a queer lens to this, because I think I do think that cis heterology like like their that community has also done a disservice by our sex edge department, but we're focused on the queer because we're not gonna prioritize straight people on our podcast today. No, I'm kidding. Um I think everyone's kidding.
SPEAKER_00The the straights can absolutely get a lot out of this. Like there is everything we say here is applicable and like please help yourself.
SPEAKER_04Yes, and I like to think that. Like, I feel like this is actually an area where everybody is disserviced because of their fear of talking about, you know, whether it's pregnancy, religion, um, whether it's like, you know, homophobia, all the things. So I'm really excited about this.
SPEAKER_00Even racial differences play a huge factor into what a queer sex ed would look like, right? Like racial, cultural backgrounds, huge difference.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's like women weren't even allowed to prioritize their pleasure. It feels like honestly, until it feels very recent. And even that is questionable given our government's decisions and political policies. So I'm I'm curious, if you were to design uh an inclusive sex education program, that's of course age appropriate, all the things, what would that look like in in your world?
SPEAKER_00I love the question. And um, since I did get like a sneak peek on thinking about this earlier in the day, like I I don't want to just be like um someone who wants to like flip it all on its head, but almost like immediately I'm like, what if it was actually like a queer connection education? Like I feel like right, like I feel like as soon as we start to dive into what a queer sex ed would look like, it immediately explodes. It's it's something that if you try to like put your finger on it, it's a million butterflies flying in a hundred directions. Because we almost immediately uh like and this, and I think I want to validate for any for everyone who listens that like this is part of what makes it so freaking hard. Like, there is no simple, like, oh yes, I brought a 10-step curriculum for parents and teachers, and here's a workbook, right? Like, we immediately, if we're gonna start talking about like what queer sex looks like, we can't have that conversation without gender. And if we're gonna start talking about gender, we suddenly want to start talking about how gender presentation doesn't necessarily match a gender identity, which doesn't necessarily match pronouns, which doesn't necessarily match body parts, right? And so just like starting to really look at all the ways that um like queer people have expanded these vocabularies and that we have gotten words that are more more specific. That if we're gonna start talking about a queer sex ed, like it seems like sometimes almost a strange part to pull out when we are in the middle of this incredible conversation about like aromantic relationships and asexual relationships. And right, so like it for me, it really feels like a piece of a much bigger pie because I also want like a huge facet for me would be like, what is your relationship with yourself like? What is your relationship with like your own sexuality like? Those are relationships that need time and love, right? So, so just to start that like queer sex ed would be the curriculum would have this huge umbrella, and I really think that it would the other thing that I don't like about the idea of a curriculum per se is that everything we know about queerness and queer identities involves evolution over time. And so the idea that this is one thing you do in the sixth grade, like I'm just like, oh, like, you know, you like again, we can build foundations and those can like be built upon over time. Um, but when I have designed like sex ed curriculums for parents, like I'm trying to build an ecosystem. I want to build a space where kids can ask questions and you know, keep those channels open and you know, where the parents are cool that they're learning alongside because what does it even mean to be gynosexual, right? Like where it's this, you know, it's evolving and it's changing. So like my curriculum, my dream of curriculum would be um, it would be give it would be a program that invites is both given to the kids in school, and there's a parent component uh after hours. So it would be preparing parents to come in and like it parents can ask all the questions that they don't know, right? Like, what does bisexual mean? What does right? Like, like let's get let's get that vocab, let's let's get these norms. Like, um, how are you gonna let's practice some active listening skills for when your kids come and ask you questions, right? So like it it would set them up and just give parents a space to to ask all the questions they don't understand because they, if they got any sex ed, it was that really hetero, really cis, very minimal sex ed. And again, based in fear, not rooted in a desire for pleasure. So, like they parents would also be having to jumpstart that for themselves, right? So there would be an adult component and there would be a youth component. Um, and I think it would be like everything in the youth component would be a blend of hey, let's take up talk about your all's own experiences so far and do a lot of stuff to set up a structure where kids may or may not feel comfortable sharing, again, deeply vulnerable. Um, but mixing that with like, hey, you're gonna hear a lot of words um getting thrown around. Like, let's talk about what those mean. And especially for kids, being able to root that into like, here's why you want, like, man, you don't want to be the only kid on the band bus who doesn't know what this word means, right? Like, ooh, that'd be so embarrassing if you had to ask, right? Like, whatever it is to help people like see that, like, you know, this is something you might be curious about. And depending on what age group we're in, really normalizing asexuality. Like, hey, we're talking about a lot of stuff in here. Like, if it's not resonating with you, let's hear more about that. Like, what do you think? Right. So, like, it would, I would really want it to be something that evolved over time. And like, you know, what if they did meet like, you know, once a quarter or something? And like, again, I know how precious time is in K through eight, but what if they did it every other year? Like, I don't like I would want there to be those strings of continuity. And I would want like all those queer resources, all of those queer lenses to be something that the counseling staff was deeply vested in and had like matching resources for. So, like, hey, that stuff you talked about in the in the like curriculum workshop, like, oh, it's also the flyer that the counselor is gonna give you, and it's also what your parents have at home, right? So you have this continuity of the resources that come across. I think like That above anything else is going to be what my curriculum will be built in. And then, you know, a lot of it's that like dialogue approach, but also just like curiosity, right? Like, really, like I think the most crucial foundations we can put down are like being curious about it, feeling how we how we how these things present in our body. Like, what are you drawn to? What are you pushed away from? And just again, how to be curious. And I said this earlier, but like having some critical thinking about it. Like it would have to have a huge component about the digital age, right? Like let's talk about, like, let's talk about porn. Let's talk about what's on the internet. Like, yeah, it's a there's a lot out there, right? And so, like, again, instead of putting our head in the sand and saying they're not gonna access it, like, let's talk about how to access it. Let's talk about the differences between porn representation and and these other ones. Let's talk about, right? Like, yeah, it really is just a fully accepting version. And then also, you know, um, giving giving youth guardrails, right? Like, hey, if you start feeling this way, this is a great time to talk to someone, right? Like, just like what's the like, oh, going off the road a little bit. Give like letting them know like this is where this is the middle zone where you're really like safe and comfortable and you can play. And then like this is when to call someone in, right? Things like that.
SPEAKER_04I like something you said that's really sticking with me and I think has been missing, and I didn't realize it was missing from the education until now, is talking about relationship with other people. We focus so much on, and I think this is a disservice to to all genders and sexualities. We focus so much on the act of sex that we never talk about how to connect with other people. And I think queer individuals really are at the bad, the worst end of that stick because so often we're not able to express basic milestones that are emotional in tenor as well as like some physical ones as well, until much later in life. And there we know that whole concept of second adolescence and things like that. So we are we're not able to know, like, hey, what does it feel like to be in a healthy relationship? What are we talking about green flags? It's like, well, what are those? Like, we don't, it's not by chance that you know, we do so much trial and error because we're forced to DIY life when we could actually go in with some insight. And I think the idea of maybe in middle school, like sixth grade or whatever, whatever the you know, people who get paid to do this and think about these things, maybe it is just introducing the physical change that you're about to go through because that's most relevant to their life. They're about to enter puberty and learn these crazy things and all these things are happening to their bodies and hormones, et cetera. And then maybe we, like you said, we come back and we're touching again, like touching back on like, okay, you've gone through some of these changes. How are you feeling about these changes? How do you feel about your body, et cetera? And then now we're introducing, like, now you might be the point where you want to engage in things, where you're interested in relationships. Let's now re-let's restructure this conversation to talk about what does healthy sexuality look like with oneself? What does healthy sexuality look like with someone else? And I think it's making it a constant thing. Let's talk about consent. How do these things, because if you're constantly normalizing the conversation, it makes it, it removes a lot of the stigma and taboo. And then I think all parties, no matter what your identity, what your orientation, because people are in an exploratory place. And that I know people use it as like a invalid to invalidate the sexuality or gender of other people. But I think there is a legitimate phase of exploration and understanding where if you give people a safe space to discuss it, to talk about it with the resources, with people who have access to the resources that they need and have group discussion, I think it's a very positive social experience. And it really makes it a lot easier to cr establish certain rules and concepts like we talked about, like consent and things like that, that'll make a healthier generation and to really make it so that kids are informed. So they're not going to college and being, you know, dealing with, you know, essay or terrible things that should not be happening. Hopefully, we're teaching all parties how to be respectful, how to know what are danger signs, what are things to watch out for so that people go into places feeling informed. And I think we jokingly say that this month was about S E triple X. So it was uh safe empowerment and triple X fun. And so we wanted to talk about safety. We talked about that with attachment with um um Eli Harwood, and so which was amazing the attachment there. Love, love you. Thank you so much for coming on. We talk about empowerment and you know, especially we talked about it with Brandon Robertson, like the queer theologian, who really talks a lot about understanding and empowering yourself against people, especially in the right-wing evangelical nature, about making you feel shame about your thing. And of course, have you here to actually talk about the triple X fun aspect where you can what does that look like to be healthy? So sorry I blabbled for like a second.
SPEAKER_00No, I love it. David, I have things to say. Do you want to jump in first?
SPEAKER_02Well, no, the only thing I was going to add was it also would have saved my parents' computer from a lot of viruses that I didn't. Oh my god. All the pop-ups, like the infinite pop-ups. Yes. I was committed because I was like, I was waiting 15 to 20 minutes for a photo on the dial up internet.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. Oh my God. That is commitment. That is commitment. I think that's delayed gratification if I've ever heard it.
SPEAKER_04Easily, easily why the the edging, the visual edging, visual edging.
SPEAKER_00Oh god, please love. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um no pun intended.
SPEAKER_00All puns all day. Um, yeah, I do, I do want to jump back into like part of like, yeah, how would we know what we want, right? And like it's so crucial, especially because like as I was starting to like prepare for thinking about our talk tonight, like, man, most of us queer folk are gonna have some level of trauma. And so, like, it puts us at this inordinate disadvantage of like our bodies aren't safe to be in. We've been like, we have all these beautiful powers of dissociation that helped us survive. We don't like my body stopped communicating my wants and needs to me as an adolescent because they weren't gonna be taken seriously. Right? Like, that is part, and so like my last two decades have been like in slowly inviting those back online, much less doing something with them, right? Um, so like part of any queer sex ed that happens in the next, I want to say like, God, I wish it was less, but like 30 years is gonna have to be so deeply trauma informed, right? Because we don't, we can't just say, hey kids, like look at how they did it, because we're missing so many queer elders, right? And we don't have all the representation in media that we could want. Like there are so many things that are missing that this our queer sex ed has to be trauma-informed, trauma-centered, and just like working from almost an assumption that like we don't, we don't know how to connect with our bodies, right? And so that's where also like a queer sex ed and gender exploration are so deeply connected to for me is like, well, how do I know my sexual like how do I know my sexuality if I don't know if I'm a boy, girl, or a non-binary, like uh, right? Like, because all of our words require basically to know what me, the starting point is, and name where the attraction goes, right? So, like, there it's really hard to to pull those pieces apart. Um, but like I don't want to lose something that is a couple things that are important to me here of like to find our yes, we also have to find our no. And that was something that I think for me as a millennial got really lost by well-meaning parents, is that they'd be like, Yeah, like you can say no all you want, like you can like like they always could like no was always an option, but there were so many places in my life where my yes wasn't honored either. And so, like, you know, I couldn't necessarily have friends over into my room. Like, my like there were I wasn't able to say yes for my body to certain things, and so in some ways, like I didn't have autonomy in either direction, and so I didn't have autonomy at all, right? Like it it there's just all these levels and kind of what um we're talking about, like integrating consent language into other places. But like once once that's gone, like I have had money essay experiences, and I'm it's it's oh it's such a nuanced thing. And I would like it it's my unique experience that like I'm still deeply friends with a couple of them and the people who were like perpetrated it against me. And a lot of that is because my trauma body freezes when I when when that consent violation happens, right? So a lot of communication things are off the table. And it's so hard because you know, a couple of those were my partners at the time, and we do just live in this like little mermaid, just kiss the girl, go for it, like without these basic, you know, communication principles, which again, big part of my uh queer curriculum, to to learn how to read and check in with each other, right? And like some of that stuff, like learning how to read each other's bodies and things like you know, it's that's not gonna be easily put in the book, right? So there's just oh like I I feel like so much of doing this is to remember the people that are involved, including ourselves, right? To not make the act of sex more important than the people that are involved in it. Um and yeah, just like you know, especially when hormones are high, like it's the most fucking important thing in that moment. And like, like what like I have so much uh heart for like youth educators because like that's a powerful urge to try and override and be like, but remember that they're your peers, like right? Like, how are you gonna like get that message in? So, like it's not, it's not easy, it's messy. Um, real done. And we huh?
SPEAKER_04You're fighting, sorry, you're fighting social media, you're fighting all these other outside voices that we weren't listening to. Like, there wasn't like a hundred podcasts about how to get a girl and half of them telling you you just never take no for an answer. The other half is saying always ask every step of the way. Like, there's so many conflicting messages now.
SPEAKER_00Yep. And so, like, right. And so, like, there's I think that's where like trying to help them cultivate some level of discernment uh for themselves is gonna be a huge piece of that. And a lot of that is gonna be like, how does it feel in the body? Um, and like who can you talk to about this? Like, if you're trying to do this alone, you like that's just like almost like staying in a probably social media vortex, right? Um, and we know that the algorithm's like, oh, you want to hear more of this, and you just get your little echo chamber. So, like also making sure that that's why I think about it as an ecosystem. Like, you know, if if a child is comfortable talking to their parents, awesome, but let's also have them be talking to a sex educator, let's have them have access to a therapist and like or it could be a coach, like trusted adults, right? Um, because I think again, just like any any place of isolation is going to just really stifle, you know, natural curiosity as well as like uh getting a variety of answers.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04I really like you saying that because I think so often when it comes to I teach art to teachers and how to use it in their classrooms and for different to help supplement curriculum, help facilitate the curriculum. And I said, you know, to kids, art is not a subject, it's a way they see the world. So when we deny how they see the world, we're really denying them. And I think a lot of what you just said in that moment, first of all, thank you for sharing your experiences um positive and and challenging because I believe that when we don't allow children or young adults, et cetera, when we shut their curiosity down, we're telling them that maybe something's wrong with them. And I think that's I mean, I think about my own queer experience where it's like you ask, oh, is kissing boys okay? And they're like, no, it's bad, blah, blah, blah. And so then you grow up thinking, oh, okay, I won't talk about, I won't ask about that again. But then it's like, well, I had this really strong urge to do it. And then if I do it, now something's wrong with me because it's bad. And that is something that we do. I mean, look at how we tell little girls, like, you know, uh, be mindful of how you dress because da-da-da-da-da. And it's like, but you're not having the same conversation with telling young men that no matter how someone is dressed, you don't do that. Or teaching people, like, hey, even the things we are teaching is bad. Like, you know, boys will be boys, or it's like you're setting up, you're creating a culture that invites the worst of human impulse and behavior, not justifying, you know, anybody's decision to do it. But it's like when I look at, when you look at societally, we are contributing to this. What else are if we tell men all the time, like, oh, you know, if they know just means not right now, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you're treating it like a conquest, then when they start doing getting to the logical end of such thinking where they don't value their partner as a person, they value them as a pursuit, as a as a process, then it's like, yeah, that's inevitable at this point. If not right, but it's a logical endpoint to the ideology that we have cultivated around it. And I think it's doing everyone a disservice. I say this all the time, like, I'm like, I wish we could finally have a conversation where we normalize people liking being attracted to whoever they are, because I'm tired of seeing the impact of not doing that on, you know, the trans community or other people who don't fit in a gender binary where it's like, oh, we've labeled this person as gay. They can't handle the fact that they're being labeled gay erroneously or whatever the case might be. Now they want to go kill the partner after they have sex. And it's like, what?
SPEAKER_00Stop. And stop this. And it's it it is heartbreaking and maddening. And like, that's really where like I was like some of the things that I was thinking about a lot here is like necessary for adult queer sex ed too. Of like, oh my god, it's it's not one thing, and you don't have anything to prove, and like everything's okay, right? Like, like you don't like it's for you, and like we get so torn, and like the like labels and language are great because they can help us like find things that feel affirming, but then like this, like it can also so be so oh juxtaposed with how we see ourselves or how what people are gonna think of me, and then we're just off on a tear, and it's like, you know, I want I wish I could soothe everyone who struggles with that, right? Um, and that's just always gonna be hard because the language is cultural and regional, and there's always gonna be new words coming up, and like, you know, that is something that I see, you know, specific like for people who struggle with it. My advice would be like if you are genuine and curious, like most people are gonna try and meet you there, right? Um, I've had people on hinge or field like stumble over trying to ask me what my genitals are, and like, because like my mind says genderqueer, right? And so, like, you know, like it, it's it's it is, it's messy, and it's you know, we we picked messy because messy felt more liberating than the cis heterosexual version. And it's still messy, um, right? And so, like, you know, I dropped the word gyneosexual recently, and that's one of the newer terms. Uh, because people were like, well, shit, am I not being a good trans ally if I, you know, I say that I'm attracted to women, but I am not sexually attracted to penises, right? So a trans woman, if she decided or had not yet undergone decided not to undergo surgery, hadn't done it yet, whatever her choice is. Um, like, you know, people like really grappling with like, what does that mean for me as a trans ally if I'm attracted to women, including trans women, but not penises, right? And so like we have like there's this, there's this place of like just being really, really honest with ourselves, right? Um, not it does have a whole other slew of like, well, when do you ask? How is it appropriate to ask, right? Like, and then for people who might not have uh the expected genitals, like, oh, when do I disclose? Should I like like it's it's messy and you're gonna have to, you know, find find the answer there that works for you. But you know, we are trying as a queer community, I think, to catch up with some of those things. And so, like, gynosexual is someone that is attracted to vulvas and vaginas, right? Um, these are and it's not to say that it just helps offer a little more clarity as they might be dating in the queer community, right? Um, so yeah, it's it's it's messy. And I think, you know, it's also it it ties back day to what you're saying about all of this being based in fear. Like, I when I was young, if I messed up, it really felt like part of me just got cut off. It was like, oh, that wasn't safe. I will never go in that direction again. And I just got smaller and smaller until I was this very tiny like version of myself because it wasn't safe to go in any direction. And thank God for multiple supports in my life that have helped me to just feel confident in cleaning up the messes I make, right? Like, you know, if instead of you know, sex ed being based in fear because of diseases, what if it was like, hey, like here's some common ones. They're cured with like a shot of penicillin, and here's the real here's how you measure risk, right? Um and here's what you do if you find yourself there. Uh same with this, is like, hey, communication is gnarly and you can't predict for everything. Someone might just, you know, be hungry and hangry and snap at you. Like, but how do I feel good about cleaning up if I try to ask someone um about like if we're a good sexual match or a good kink match or whatever, and it doesn't go well.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, I didn't know if you could hear her banging the door stopper. For those that's listening, it's David, it's the only pussy David loves.
SPEAKER_04It's the queen. It's the personal that I'm attracted to. Yeah, it's the only gyne sexual moments he has, which is with the pussy cat Phoebe.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, I this is this is the Phoebe show. We're just allowed here. Um so yeah, so like Grace with learning all this stuff, and then also Grace for messing up, right? Like, I think like that's that would be such a huge part of the of a curriculum and youth and adults of like you're gonna mess up. And I think especially kind of like harking back to like our kink episode, like you may accidentally trigger someone in a way they weren't expecting, right? You may like these things, if we are like living together in these real intimate, vulnerable ways where we open up to each other, we're gonna find things that surprise even ourselves. And they may hurt and like you know, having room to know that like if I think it goes a lot better when I feel comfortable taking responsibility for my contributions and just being an empathetic friend through the rest. Like, I think it's really important that we we recognize that you know, playing with something so powerful can have these impacts. And what are we gonna do when when, not if it does happen?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I love that you said that because you you said a lot of things, and I'm like, yes, yes, yes. For me, it's interesting because I think I always try to go back to a space of grace because I recognize that often these education systems are built on trying to cast the widest net. And I recognize that, you know, queer people are a sexual minority, we're uh gender minority, et cetera. Like that's a real fact and that's okay. And so it's like it's not about did you get all the latest terms, but did you equip your students with the the skills and the curiosity? Did you cater and, you know, and reinforce their curiosity to learn new things as they arrive? What are the resources they can go to learn these things? And if somebody, because case in point, like, you know, we talk about transgender people, and it's like most people aren't aware, or maybe just not by people who might be identified as transgender just from a numbers game. And it's like, okay, that's fine, but it doesn't excuse, you know, disrespect. Or treating them like less than just because you have not had to be around and exposed to people who with that identity, or like, you know, I identify on their sexuality spectrum. I didn't identify with that for a long time because you get tired of people, like it was like, well, you know, you have sexual attraction to this. And so I had to learn that it's a spectrum. I had to learn what that looks like for me. And I mean, I still have people who, you know, try to refute it or just like, this is stupid, or being aside, or all these different things. And it's like, I knew these things about myself where I knew that something was off. I just didn't have a term for it. And I know the critique is like, oh, we just keep adding all these words and adding all these letters. And it's like, for most people, they're not gonna apply for you. And that's okay. But it's just recognizing that if you do find yourself where it applies, or do find a situation where you encounter someone, don't lose that curiosity. Like, I like when you bringing up the word gyneosexual. Like, that is such an important thing because it is a conversation you've had people say, like case in point. Like, I mean, my friends and I, some of my queer friends, we talked about like, oh, being trans attracted or whatever, like that. And I was like, well, you know, as a person who identifies as a gay male, like I am not attracted to trans women because I'm not attracted to women. So I was like, I don't care what their part is, that's not my attraction. But I was like, a trans man is very different. But then it's like trying to explain that to people. It's like, it feels like this like mountain and molehill trying to like explain, no, I don't like this, but I like that. This is why I like that. And you just get to a point where you're just like, never mind. And you don't bring it up. But I think it's hard.
SPEAKER_00Definitely back to Grace. Like, I'd say like for queer folk, like, you don't owe everyone your explanation. Like, choose where and when you want to have those conversations. You know, like I identify as like a non-binary, queer, gender queer. Like, I have like a lot of the words that David had in my bio.
SPEAKER_04And it's like how to know those words. Just like a year and a half ago, two years ago, I was learning, like, oh, I didn't know this. What does this mean? Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_00Right. And like, but I don't just like break those out of every party I go to. Like, I'm definitely entering a more of an era where it's like, once you get to know me, you can get to know me, right? I don't bleed with them necessarily, right? And so, like, giving your grace, giving yourself grace for like, oh God, like, especially because like I've got like long black hair right now, and I'm not rocking like a queer purple pixie cat, and I'm like You're a bad gender queer.
SPEAKER_03I'm kidding.
SPEAKER_00Oh, am I? Right. And so, like, that's what I would want like queer youth and adults to is like you're not less queer if you're not like presenting it, you're not less queer if you're not partaking in it, right? Like, that's something that's really hard for especially like bisexual folks that end up in what is a heterosexual presenting relationship, right? Like, um, you're not you're not anything less, and you know, I think that's the other part of the grace of like you may not feel it super strong every day. Like these things ebb and flow, you're living a life, right? Where it's exhausting to just think about it all the time. And again, that's a privilege I have because I don't, I'm not grating against gender dysphoria every day, right? Like I don't experience massive body uh dysmorphia when my period hits, right? Like there are privileges I have to having some of these parts of my experience and identity be in alignment. And like then for the ones that we have a little more control over, choosing how much we want to bring them up. And are we doing that in supportive environments or ones that are gonna like devil's advocate question, right? Like, man, leave them to the internet. Like, I don't fuck with a devil's advocate, like not at all.
SPEAKER_04Because there's the thing is, why are you conjuring the devil? And why are you being his advocate?
SPEAKER_00I just be someone else's advocate.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, angel advocate.
SPEAKER_00Be someone else, be my advocate. Like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_04Screw the devils. He doesn't, they don't need any advocation from advocacy from us. How about you come in and you're like, you know what, angel advocate. I might not understand what you're what all the words that you're using, but I understand that you are a human being experiencing humanity, and I support you along your journey. How about that? I'm at the point now I say, listen, I don't care if you like man or what I don't I just do you like me? Are you secure in the fact that you like me? You can like whatever you want to like. Then like let's go. Are you loyal to me? Are you clear on how you feel to me? I don't have to you could be whatever thing under the rainbow sun that makes you happy. As I always jokingly say, the LGBTQ through Z. You could pick whatever you want in there. But if you don't like me, if you don't respect me, if you don't have, if you don't, if there's not the basic green flags, as we all say, then it doesn't really matter. Like my, your preference, that person's preference, any of those things, they become irrelevant if you don't have an alignment. And it becomes challenging to look at it from a perspective where it's like, hmm, they don't really love I don't know. It's like you get into this place of flags, quote unquote. It's like, no.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's something that I want to um just bring us back to is like, you know, like what is our relationship to that sexual connection we're pursuing, the sex we're having, the relationships we're building. Like, what is our relationship to sex, right? Because like if it it it could so easily be like, well, I'm not, I want to feel affirmed in my gay identity, so I have to be having gay sex, right? Uh like I like it starts to be less of something we enjoy for the process itself, and more like something that shows that like just convinces us of something. Like I can say so clearly that my self-esteem was built off being sexually wanted by men in college. Like, y'all, I'd go to a party, I'd I'd look around the room, I'd pick one, and I'd be like him, and right, and I'd like hunt, right? But that's how I built my self-esteem. And so, especially for queer folk, like what is sex and sexual connection and sexual energy? How is it serving you, right? Like, you might want to talk to a therapist or someone if it feels like it's building the platform to your confidence. Like, not to say that it's not gonna like be a little feather in my hat, right? Um, but like, is it, you know, fortifying your sense of queerness? Because those aren't necessarily connected, right? And like it can really just change our our how we think about ourselves based on what we're doing. And if it could instead be based on seeking connection or pleasure or some of these may perhaps healthier needs, if it's fulfilling those, that's something completely different.
SPEAKER_02I have a question for you. You are a communications expert, and I've heard a little bit of it, I think, but I'm curious what communication tools do you think would have helped you earlier in in all of this?
SPEAKER_00I love the question. Um I want to start by just affirming that like depending on where you are with your trauma, um, your trauma healing journey or dealing with things, like some communication skills just aren't realistically gonna be available. So, like if these are things that you don't feel like you could bring up or ask, like there are legitimate roadblocks that can get in the way of having these types of healthy communication or even direct communication. Uh so one of the ones that I thought of was like um just a really simple check-in question. And again, I'm thinking about like sex and sexual intercourse and play, and it's literally like, hey, I see X happening, and I'm interpreting that as Y. Is that correct? Right? Like it could just be like, um, hey, I see that you uh immediately get dressed after after every time we have sex. Um and you know, to me that lands as you wanting to like put some physical distance between us and I feel kind of you know shut out because we don't cuddle. Like, is was that your intention? Can you tell me what's going on there? Right? Like here's the things I see, here's how they land for me. Am I right? And like an it's an invitation, right? It's like, hey, like I don't want to make assumptions. Can you help, can you fat, can you check me on this, right? Um, but there's a lot of places for direct communication like that. Like for a large part of my life, I would never have brought that up because especially growing up in like a Mexicana like culture, like asking something like that, especially to a man, is like a direct threat to them. Right. Like, there's almost no way that that doesn't come off as a threat to their ego or to anything else, right? So I just want to validate that like sometimes things that are lauded as like best communication skills um are taken out of a cultural context or a trauma-informed lens. And so it's they're not easily accessible. It's not like, oh my God, why didn't you just ask? It's like because there's a lot there that we'd have to unpack first. And so there's like the the ability to check in on things when you realize you might be making an assumption or having like that would be like a cognitive distortion depending on which like therapy um modality you're coming from. Um, and then also like I think part of like moving into a a sex space that's more affirming is being able to ask, ask for what we want, right? And so, like, um, you know, this my notes I jotted down, it's like, hey, I'm really into thing. Okay. Um, I'd love to try it with you. What are your thoughts? Um, and these are best practices for not immediately in the moment. Like, don't don't drop this right before the set. Like, please do these are they land best if we're fully clothed and doing something else, right? There's a lot of pressure, even if unintended, if uh I'm like, you know, getting undressed as we do this. Um and so, like, you know, inviting inviting people into stuff, and like it's so vulnerable to admit when we want something because the other person could say no, right? Um, and so like I think both sides, like it's it's a beautiful, vulnerable like gift to offer someone to like, hey, do you want to come with me on this journey that's really important to me? And so for on the other side to to know that you're being offered a gift, and whether your answer is yes or no doesn't matter. It's like, oh my god, thank you so much. It's like a bit, it's like getting a real gift. Like, oh my god, thank you so much for thinking of me. I'm actually allergic to candles. Yeah. But like I'm gonna, right? Like, but it is the thought that counts. Right, but like, you know, again, that grace of like it is the thought that counts, right? And so, like, you know, that can be so I think there's an extra layer of difficulty if you're already in a committed relationship or you're married or something. Cause like if they and it's monogamous, because like if they say no, then like it might just sit between us that like this need I have isn't getting met. Um, and I think that with the right structure and support, you can continue to have more intimacy there because it's like I still share this part of me that is like really deep and like it almost intimidating in how personal it is. And together we can choose are we going to open up and find a way for me to indulge this? Or am I gonna decide that knowing it and acknowledging it is enough and I'm going to lean into things we do do really well together?
SPEAKER_02I like that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Dave, do you have any more questions?
SPEAKER_04Gosh, yes. This see, ours love our conversations because they're able to we go around in these different ways and find so much commonality amongst our different thought processes and the way we see things. And like I I'm saying this off topic. Like I had so many friends reach out to me about the episode that we did previously. Like people I never, ever, ever, ever, ever like would have imagined would have listened and were so intrigued. So I was like, oh, this makes me so, so happy. Um, I guess one of my questions would be: which queer elder, celebrity, or fictitious character gave you more guidance when it comes to discovering yourself than maybe like an actual curriculum or something like that? I'm always curious because I learned this recently that Ariel from The Little Mermaid or Mermaids in General is something that I think has a lot of significance in the transgender community. I never knew that. And I was like, oh, that's so interesting. So I was just curious, you know, growing up with different identities, like, was there like any characters that you identified with?
SPEAKER_00Oh, um, probably the other, one of the other like trans community favorites of Mulan, like, you know, she's like, she right, she's in it, but she's like disguised, but then she's also a badass, and she like passes with flying colors because it wasn't actually about gender, like and then like reveals and it was never about gender.
SPEAKER_03Like that favorite movies.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's that's so good. Um yeah, I I think I think that one, because like man, the whole movie just really like boops it on the nose of like it never mattered, right? Like he said this. Would you rather be right or dead? Well, right, like when it comes to like defeating the enemy. Like I do love being right. We'd my the my poor partner right now. I do love being right. It's a problem.
SPEAKER_04I'm working on that. What do you say? Do you want to be in right or do you want to be in a relationship? I want to be both.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So like you are talking to a polyamorous bisexual. I want both. Yes. Like love and money, I want both.
SPEAKER_04Like forgive me at all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like your premise, I reject it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I I I I enjoy that. And I think, you know, wrapping it up here, I think what I really take away from this conversation is that it's not about, it's not just about content. Yes, the content of any curriculum or any education that includes queer students and inclusion is important. But it's really about just establishing critical thinking and fostering curiosity. Well, I think if we give, especially as we move into the age of social, you know, AI and and there's so much about the way learning is changing and the modalities of learning is changing, that really if you can't discern what's accurate, what's not accurate, if you can't really reinforce the scientific met scientific method and how to check out the stuff.
SPEAKER_00If you don't know how to check a resource and like I'll be the first to admit, like, you know, I was born in 90 and like some of the AI shit gets past me. And like that's really discern disconcerting as like a digital native, um, so-called. Because I'm like, oh, I used to have just like an instance about internet stuff, and now I don't. And so like it will, yeah, it will be about like, do you know how to check another source? And like stuff that like people who go to college are aware of of like, is it a primary source? Like, what's a reliable off? Like, you know, it's gonna kind of come back to again having those discernment skills, especially, and I think it's yeah, a good note to end on. It's like when we cannot trust the body, if it's because of trauma, if it's because the deception is too good, right? Like, you know, if we're talking about like all the like hunt all the hunting I did to get sex in college, like it felt good. If you had asked me, like, does it feel good, I would have said yes. Right. So like the body both like act can act as a compass and it can be skewed from things like trauma, intergenerational trauma. Um, like they're like it is also something to be honed over time. And so if we can kind of combine the heady intellectual stuff of like, yeah, maybe double check that, maybe fact-check that with the embodied stuff of like, oh, I'm drawn this way or this feels good. Like, if we can have kind of that combo, I think I think people will be a lot better at not just reacting to the shoulds that they've picked up, but really like finding it out for themselves.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, clear expect realistic expectations. And we talked about that a little bit with porn and things in our kink episode. So go back and listen to that. Um, but no, I just thank you so much for this, for this chat. And you know, I'm gonna listen back and think of like 80 other things and like, we gotta come back and talk about this. Because now, because honestly, dating in the digital age, that's actually something you you've talked about with AI. And I was like, honestly, people fostering relationships with AI and like how we navigate the dating world and a digital space and how that disconnects us from reality, and that we we we see, especially in queer spaces, so much of our first interactions or attempts at connection nowadays are through digital means as well as what does it look like to be doing this? So it's like we there's already this barrier and wall up, and it makes it. I think for a community that generally struggles to create vulnerable and authentic connections, that's only amplified in terms of the difficulty because of that, mixed with shame, trauma, all the other things. So you have a welcome invitation because we just love chatting with you. So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm so excited, and we can talk about how disability like plays into all that with like it's it's huge. We can keep going, and I'm really excited too. So um call me lindo, maybe y'all will call me back.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes, absolutely. I think you're our second returning guest ever. So yes. Nick, where can people follow you in your work? Yes, yay.
SPEAKER_00Uh, you can find me on Instagram at new worlds together. Um, that also gets you to uh new dash worlds together.com. Uh just hit me up through there. Um, I'd love to help couples who want to talk about like queer sex relationships, uh, kink, nominogamy, anything like that. Um man, I just love talking about this stuff. And I I think it's gonna be these connections that see us through.
SPEAKER_02So we'll put links to everything in the show notes and your previous episode. So, but thank you, Nick. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to share it with a friend. Rate us five stars on the platform where you listen. Get in touch with us. Oh, my voice. I I feel a lot better than I sound. Get in touch with us at Call MePod on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok threads, and blue sky. Go read our Substack. I just released a Substack article, and by that I mean it will come out before this episode comes out. And become a Patreon member like Nick has. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00We appreciate y'all become a Patreon member. This is this is the good stuff, and you get it early.
SPEAKER_02So, yes, and yes, become Patreon member and you know, Day and Nick. It's like I always say this pussy talks English, Spanish, and French. We love a multilingual pussy around here.
SPEAKER_04I haven't heard that I have not heard that song in so long, and I'm going to play it when we leave here. For those who are unaware, uninitiated, it is talks by the city girls. David really listens to the most ratchet music. Y'all don't understand that. You think it's me. You David is so unassuming in his musical selection. So when you get in the car, I love the city. Nevertheless.
SPEAKER_02The other one was I've been a nasty girl. And I'm very like Tanache.
SPEAKER_04Yes. But I want to say this I apologize that y'all that you had to. I don't want y'all to think that I don't care about David's vocal hygiene. It's that I actually don't know how he does the ending. Like I tried it one time and botched it. He has it down to a science. So I still have to make it even with him.
SPEAKER_02I also when I talk at like a normal volume like I am right now, my voice sounds fine. But I just get so excited that I scream. So I do it to myself. I I promise you David's going so much more after this. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Good. Well, remember everybody, thank you so much for listening.
SPEAKER_02And remember, when they go low, we talked to Nick Castro about sexual education. So call me limbo. Bye.
SPEAKER_03Bye, bye, friends.