The Hiring Edge

Betrayal at Work: How It Destroys Trust, Health, and Culture—And How to Heal with Dr. Debi Silber

• Josh Matthews • Season 3 • Episode 77

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Betrayal at work is the hidden threat sabotaging your culture, health, and performance. In this episode, Josh Matthews talks with Dr. Debi Silber, TEDx speaker, psychologist, and author of Trust Again, about how workplace betrayal damages trust and how you can heal.

Learn why betrayal is different from any other trauma, the symptoms of Post-Betrayal Syndrome, and the five proven stages of recovery. Whether you lead a team or are healing yourself, you’ll discover actionable strategies to rebuild trust and create a thriving workplace.

Keywords:
workplace betrayal, rebuilding trust, team culture, leadership, trauma recovery, Dr. Debi Silber, TEDx speaker, Post-Betrayal Syndrome, employee well-being

Dr. Debi Silber:

And this is where and people think I'm crazy when I say you know, trauma is the greatest catalyst for transformation, because it is. You are cracked wide open and it's from that space that you deliberately and intentionally rebuild yourself.

Josh Matthews:

Welcome to the Hiring Edge, the podcast helping leaders navigate the age of AI, create teams that thrive and build a workplace people never want to leave. Welcome to the Hiring Edge. Today's guest is Dr Debbie Silber, founder of the Post-Betrayal Transformation Institute, holistic psychologist, tedx speaker and best-selling author of Trust Again and seven other books. She's the go-to expert on betrayal and how it wrecks not just your health and mindset, but your workplace too. We're talking about betrayal in the office, broken trust between leaders, teammates and partners, and how betrayal outside the office can silently sabotage team performance and culture. If you're building a team, leading one or just trying to show up better at work, this one's for you, so let's get into it. Welcome, dr Silber. It's great to have you.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Just call me Debbie Well thank you so much Looking forward to our conversation.

Josh Matthews:

It's great to have you Just call me Debbie. Well, thank you so much, Looking forward to our conversation. So, Debbie, you had this incredible experience of betrayal, both in the home that eventually was resolved, which is amazing as well as with your family, and that drove you to just say you know what? I'm going to go get a PhD in this. And when you went and did your studies, you made three groundbreaking discoveries. Maybe we can start there and share with everybody what those are.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah, you know, I don't think anybody says, oh, I think I want to study betrayal, I like that topic. No, because you have to. And my whole way of doing things is, if I want to learn something, you know, I always go to books or courses or something. And so here I was, I was betrayed and there was no book, there was no course, there was no anything. And this was so big that I needed to study it. So big. So, at 50, here I was four kids, six dogs, a thriving practice, and I enrolled in a PhD program and it was really just to understand how the mind works. You know why people do what they do and how I could truly heal from this. And while I was there, I did a study. I studied betrayal truly to help me heal and help my clients and whatever. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

Josh Matthews:

Well, you certainly seem happy and healthy, so we're excited to hear what these were.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah. So the first one was you know, I had a feeling that betrayal was a different type of trauma. I had been through death of a loved one, I'd been through disease and I was like you know what Betrayal feels different? I didn't want to assume it was the same for all my study participants, so I asked them if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal? Does it feel different for you? And unanimously they said it's so different. And here's why Because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally, so the entire self gets shattered Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust Like when you lose someone you love and everybody can relate to this. You grieve, you mourn, right. Life will never be the same, but you don't necessarily question the relationship, you don't question your ability to trust, you don't question your sanity with betrayal. You do so that it's a different type of trauma that requires a different way to heal. That was the first discovery.

Josh Matthews:

Yeah, it's, it's. It's incredible, you know, when we try and put, you know, you can't put a Band-Aid on a bad artery right. Different pain, different injuries require different procedures, methodologies, shattering. It's like, oh, you know, maybe these five steps that have worked like magic for healing all of these things, so those normal processes, you know, denial and so on, and moving through those stages, how are those stages?

Dr. Debi Silber:

different, the second. So to answer your question. The second discovery was there's actually a collection of symptoms physical, mental and emotional so common to betrayal. It's now known as post-betrayal syndrome, and we've had easily over 100,000 people take our post-betrayal syndrome assessment to see to what extent they're struggling. The first thing is we've all been taught time heals all wounds, right. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. A new relationship won't heal it. Time won't heal it If you intentionally and deliberately heal it. That's what's going to heal it, and every few months I pull the stats from the quiz. I'm happy to share some of them if that would serve.

Josh Matthews:

Please do no, that's great. Okay, Because Josh that would have been an awkward moment if you said no it would have been an awkward moment if you said no, it would have been really weird. No, we don't want your stats. Please, no facts.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Okay, all right. So now imagine 100,000 people, men and women just about every country is represented. Okay, as much as I'm going to share the symptoms. Hear these numbers 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power Through every symptom I'm sharing. Imagine how this shows up in the workplace and I know we're going to dive into that more deeply. 94% deal with painful triggers.

Dr. Debi Silber:

These are the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy. 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. So you go to sleep all night. You wake up, you're exhausted. Now think about you're showing up for your workday. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning you can't hold food down. Later on, you're emotionally eating yeah, the yo-yo concentrate. You have a gut issue. You're exhausted. And now you're supposed to perform at work. Now you're supposed to sell, Now you're supposed to, you know, promote that new program or product. Right, that's not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry. Now, if you're walking around very angry, what's that going to do to team culture and collaboration and how are you going to handle someone's? Like a misunderstanding or something like that?

Dr. Debi Silber:

You're going to compound everything If that's what you're attracting, if that's what you're putting out Sure, because it's the dark side.

Josh Matthews:

Let's face it. It's just the dark side, it's feeding the wrong force.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Exactly Because you're so upset, You're so angry, you don't know what to do with this. You're told kind of keep it out of the office, but it can't help but seep in. I'll just read a few more. This one killed me. Eighty four percent have an inability to trust. If you can't trust, think about it. This was the person you trusted the most. Now how in the world? Now you don't even trust yourself because you're like where was I? How did I not see? How did I not know? So if I can't trust the person I trusted the most and I can't trust myself, how do I trust my boss, my coworker, my colleague.

Josh Matthews:

Yeah, and you're really putting yourself in a position of isolation, because you don't trust.

Dr. Debi Silber:

You don't trust anybody or what anybody's doing or thinking, so it's a mess. And just a few more here 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. So that's where you put the big wall up. You're like no one's getting close to me again. So think about this If you're a boss or a leader of some kind, you're not allowing people to get close to you in any way. So how does that reflect on your leadership? They can't come near you, they don't understand, you know. Or even just in a, you're like, let's say, two employees working together. If you have that big wall up, what kind of connections are you making?

Josh Matthews:

You see, yeah, look, it's a nightmare. You've just described the ingredients for a toxic work environment right, exactly. We did a poll recently I think it was this past winter around the top reasons why people want to exit or leave a business. The number one reason for leaving was toxic work environment. But something that was really interesting because, look, I've talked to a lot of people, just like you I don't know how many thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of interviews, and there is a subset of people that claim every job that they've had in their last three or four jobs has been toxic. Right, and so it's a tricky thing to recognize what, if this is me, what if this is, is my filters, are my uh impressions, or what I'm bringing to the table, or how I'm showing up and how much of it is actually that. You know Susie's just not very good at managing, or Jim is dealing with betrayal, you know, in his own life and bringing it into work, and you know it gets very complex here.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Well, you know what it actually doesn't, because that was what the third discovery was about. I like that yeah.

Josh Matthews:

Simple is always nice, right.

Dr. Debi Silber:

So there's definitely that element of is it? You know everybody else around us and that could be the case, but it's also where we land and stay after a betrayal. That was the third discovery. So what was discovered was, while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and most people do if we're going to fully heal and by fully heal I mean those symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome that I just shared to this completely rebuilt place where you rebuild your life and yourself. To move through that, you will go through five proven, predictable stages, and what's even more exciting about that is we learned what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at every one of those stages and what it takes to move from one space to the next. Healing is entirely predictable.

Josh Matthews:

So talk about that very first step, if someone wants to. They recognize they've been betrayed, they recognize that they're exhibiting. Maybe they can't even identify it, because sometimes betrayal happens in childhood and we can't name it, we're not sure what it is, we're not sure if it's it's like yeah, but I was loved. But why am I so upset? I love my parents. Why am I? Why am I so frustrated? I really like everybody on my team. Why am I kind of seething or mildly disappointed in them, constantly Like these sorts of things? So I suppose we can look first like do we have these symptoms that you, that you just shared? And then what do we do about that?

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah, well, one of the and I'm happy to move you through the five stages so you see, cause everyone will know exactly where they are.

Dr. Debi Silber:

When I shared the five, stages but I'll tell you what an unhealed betrayal looks like. It looks like in your health, in your work, in your relationships, like this. This is how you know it's unhealed in relationships. We'll see it in one of two ways. Number one way repeat betrayals. The face has changed, but it's the same thing. And you go from boss to boss to boss, partner to partner, partner, friend to friend to friend. You say, is it me? Yes, it is Not in that it's your fault, in that there is a profound lesson waiting to be learned. Maybe the lesson is just understand already that you are lovable, worthy and deserving. You need better boundaries in place. Whatever that particular lesson is for you, until and unless you get that, you'll have opportunities in the form of people to teach you. So repeat betrayals. Classic sign take a look, take a look, it's unhealed. The second way is where that big wall goes up right, where we just cannot risk that level of vulnerability again, because it was so painful that we rather would keep everyone at a distance than take that chance and heal. So that's unhealed, that's hard, that's not healed.

Dr. Debi Silber:

We see it in health. People go to the most well-meaning, amazing doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. At the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. Like you heard me share, 45% of everybody who's betrayed has a digestive issue. You can go to the best gut doctor on the planet I'm friends with many of them but unless you get to the root of that, it's unhealed Like, for example, we had a woman in our community in her mid eighties. She had a family betrayal 70 years ago she was adopted. They didn't tell her it was like one of those things. 70 plus years she had a digestive issue. Two weeks into healing the root issue she healed from 70 plus years of a digestive issue.

Josh Matthews:

It's incredible, can I ask you like? I've been to therapists. I've done couples therapy, I've done individual therapy. Some of them have been awesome. Some of them have, I think, made it harder for me to trust therapists. Right, because that happens a lot and I don't mind saying this. I think vulnerability wins always. You know, sharing someone's personal experiences, when someone how do I put this?

Josh Matthews:

When we have a problem, when we have an issue, when we have something that we need to fix, we can often compound it by trying to heal, with all the best intentions, but using the wrong, wrong way to heal that or to fix that solution. In other words, the solution becomes the thing that worsens the problem, that sets it in deeper and deeper and deeper, that increases the infection, so to speak. Right, how does someone understand how to go, how to maybe even identify whether or not whatever they're doing, whatever their solution is right now, is making things better or making things worse? And I'll give, I'll give a quick example.

Josh Matthews:

There are some therapists that will validate and you talked about this on your podcast will will validate you, and that's good. We need to be heard and we need to be validated. But then there's this thing that gosh, you know, if you're talking about the past every single week, it's very difficult to be living in the present with hope and living in the future right. I mean, when is enough? Enough of diving into the past versus like, what kind of behaviors am I going to take now? How do I take action to move forward?

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah, it's a great question and this is something we see. If I tell you how many people come into the PBT Institute with therapy and counselors, trauma, these are well-meaning counselors and therapists, but when you understand the five stages and, like I said, happy to share them, what's happening is very often and in the beginnings, particularly in stage two out of the five stages you need to feel heard, validated, understood. But if that's all, you're getting over and over and over again, what it's doing is rooting you in the most common place. We get stuck and it becomes so familiar that we just can't even imagine leaving that space. So it's a common thing and it's interesting because I certify a lot of coaches, a lot of therapists, a lot of healers, a lot of healers and the therapists are the hardest ones for me to certify, because they just want to make sure that person feels heard and that's that's wonderful, but they also need to move through the stages. So that's that's our intention to move them.

Josh Matthews:

You know it's, it's. It's interesting to hear this. People are drawn to cause. Look, this is a professional show. It's about professions, it's about your career and in my career as a, as as a headhunter and as a leader um in in recruiting over the years sometimes a big fortune 500 company, sometimes just my own little gig and I've I have noticed that a lot of people who are attracted to becoming recruiters. They're attracted because they like people and they want to help people and like that's great.

Josh Matthews:

But the thing that you need to be a good recruiter is discernment. You need to know that even though this person has good intentions, this candidate has good intentions, they're nice, you like them. The fact that you feel bad for their situation cannot at all come into play. When you're trying to serve the client, they're paying you $30,000 to deliver them someone who's going to fix and heal and enhance their team, enhance their business, grow their revenue, whatever it has, solve a major problem, like whatever it is.

Josh Matthews:

Do you think that by the nature of it and I know this is a little bit off track, but do you think that just the nature of the profession of psychology, which often attracts people who suffered trauma, found it helpful, want to help others, which is a wonderful progression, but do you think that sometimes it can lack that ability to be a little bit more like the leadership that's necessary inside of those psychological relationships, to be like okay, we've talked about that, I'm glad that you're sharing this again, but I've been, I've heard it. We need to do something about it now. Let's move forward.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah, it's. You know, when you're talking about the same thing for months, years, decades, that's. That's something else. It's one thing if you don't have anybody, a support system, and you feel like you know what. I have a lot that I'm moving through and I need a sounding board. I need, I need some support here. Sure, yes, that's wonderful and in the earlier stages, like I said and again, happy to share the stages, it's important. But when that's all you're gaining from the experience, you're not moving through the stages and you're keeping yourself tragically stuck where the only thing available to you are more symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome, more betrayals, because you're living in a state of if nothing changes, nothing changes. You don't have access to those new insights, that new awareness that happens when you're past your trauma.

Josh Matthews:

Yeah, yeah. Why don't you go ahead? If you can share those five stages with us, I'd love that.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah, yeah, so everyone will notice exactly where they are. Stage one actually, before it happens, and if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual, what I saw with everybody me too was a heavy lean on the physical and mental thinking and doing, which is how most of us walk around, right, and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual. Well, if a table has two legs, easy for that table to topple over, and that's us. Stage two shock trauma, d-day, discovery day. This is the scariest of all of the stages, and this is the breakdown of is shattered. Right, that's your model. Trust this person, don't go there. These are the rules, and in one earth shattering moment, every rule you've been holding to be real and true is no longer. Your bottom has bottomed out on you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is terrifying, right?

Josh Matthews:

Terrifying.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Terrifying. And here you are supposed to be like hi, new partner, let me sell this thing. Yeah, you can barely function. Yeah, think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You'd grab hold of anything or anyone.

Josh Matthews:

Absolutely.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Stay alive and stay safe.

Josh Matthews:

Yeah, could be a bottle, could be a joint, could be some pills, could be going to clubs, all sorts of things that aren't going to serve you.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Exactly. And what's happening here is now you're surviving, and because you feel that it's so much better than the shock and trauma that you just came from, we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go we don't know there's a stage four or stage five so we plant roots here. We're not supposed to, but four things start to happen. The first thing is you start getting all those small self-benefits. You think about it, you go to work, you tell your story. You get all that confirmation, you get to be right, you get sympathy from everyone. You get your story we love our story right. And so now this is sort of what you're talking about, what you're thinking about. So now the mind starts doing things. Like you know, maybe you're not that great, maybe you deserved it, maybe this, maybe that. So you plant these deeper roots Now, because these are the thoughts you're thinking, this is the energy you start putting out.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Like energy attracts, like energy. So now you start having that situation with your boss, another thing with your coworker, another experience with a bad relationship, right, same thing. And you're like what the heck is it me? And now you join that support group. You actually sabotage yourself because you found your people. Here's where you see a therapist and you're just what's happening. And, over and over, here's where you're actually starting to heal, but you sabotage your healing because you're afraid to outgrow your betrayer, who has no intention of changing. Gets worse, but I'll get you out of here?

Josh Matthews:

What do you mean by that? Afraid to outgrow your betrayer?

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah. So let's say you have, let's say it's a, it's a relational betrayal, so this is your partner and they betrayed you. And let's say they have no intention of changing, like this wasn't the biggest wake up call of their life, where there's tremendous regret, remorse, you know all of that and they're just sort of blaming you or making excuses or whatever it is. Because if you're stuck in that stage three where you're managing and suppressing your symptoms, right, because now you're so miserable, you have to get through your day. So now you're numbing, avoiding, distracting, like what you shared before work drugs, alcohol, anything. So now you're saying to yourself I'm so sick, I'm so miserable, I'm so terrible. Maybe they're right, maybe I should just find a way to be okay with this.

Josh Matthews:

I'm not worthy.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah, and so what they're doing is they're solidifying their spot in stage three. And now the best they can hope for, right, is a suppression of these symptoms. They're not going to heal because they're not changing. Another repeat experience, because there are no consequences, right? So you can only access stage three thoughts and a stage three life when you're in stage three, you see, but people are so afraid of that death and destruction of the old. That's the only way you birth the new. And which can I take it? A four and five or go ahead?

Josh Matthews:

You can take all of us to four and five.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Okay. So if you're willing willingness is the biggest word right here Willing to let go of your story, grieve more than the loss all of a bunch of things you can move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. In that decision alone you're turning down the stress response. So you're not healing just yet, but at least you stopped the massive damage that was happening in stages two and stage three.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever your stuff's not there. It's not cozy yet, but it's this sort of hopeful excitement. It feels like that. But if you were to move, you don't take everything with you. You don't take the things that don't represent who you're now ready to become. And what I found was there's this one spot as people leave stage three and enter into stage four. If your friends weren't there for you, they're not coming along. That therapist who's keeping you stuck you're done. That lame group that's keeping you stuck you're done. That betrayer who's not changing you're done. That boss who won't change you're done. And people say is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation. If they don't rise, they don't come. So it's a very personal, not necessarily lonely time, very personal time, stage four, but very action-oriented.

Josh Matthews:

I think a lot of people leave jobs when they're ready for stage four, just like they leave relationships, just like they leave towns. We moved from Portland, oregon. Portland's an amazing city and treated us mostly well for most of the time there, but then it's like it's not serving me, right? I honestly this is going to sound silly I honestly felt betrayed by the city I lived in because of how it was run and crime and how it was managed and the destruction of downtown and all that stuff, like a city can betray you. So, of course, friends and relationships and partners and family members, bosses, coworkers you know, the only, it seems like the only people who can betray, who can't betray you, are the people that you never put any trust in to begin with.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Well, that's, that's why betrayal is so different and that's why it's a shock to the body, the mind, the heart, because this was the person or these were the people you gave your trust to. So when this is the person or these are the people to take that sense of safety and security away, it's traumatizing. And you mentioned all the different ways we can feel betrayed. You know, we can even feel betrayed by, let's say, a company where that company said their product was great for us. It's called something, called like I think it's the love turns to hate principle where you support this brand and this company and you just think it's the greatest thing.

Dr. Debi Silber:

If you find out you've been duped by that company, you turn on them so fast. We would rather knowingly choose something bad for us, like we know, let's say, alcohol is bad, but we're doing it, we know what we're getting into. But when a company says, oh, we're so healthy and good for you and you find out it's not, we turn on them quickly. There's also self-betrayal, you know, like if you know something or someone or your work or whatever is not in your best interest and you keep going back for more, that's self-betrayal too.

Josh Matthews:

Yeah, and that self-betrayal and I've seen this in family and probably myself at certain times in my life that self-betrayal it's the fastest way to erode self-worth.

Dr. Debi Silber:

That's a tall ladder to climb up that are clearly not in your best interest. And this is where and people think I'm crazy when I say trauma is the greatest catalyst for transformation because it is you are cracked wide open and it's from that space that you deliberately and intentionally rebuild yourself. And when I say people move into stages four and five new levels of health, new businesses, new passion projects, new relationships of health, new businesses, new passion projects, new relationships on a very different level it's because one of the things you are doing is you're looking at every thought that comes in and you're saying does this still serve? Because if not, it doesn't come along. And because why in the world would you bring along anything with you that doesn't now allow for this beautiful new version of you to be created?

Josh Matthews:

You know this. This is so critical. I wrote an article I think it was this winter about everything that you should do before you quit right. Everything you should do, and the main justification for that article is because I have seen so many people say this environment is not good for me, I need to move on. It's like, okay, but they leave, they go get a new job, and everything that happened in the last job it's happening in this new job too.

Josh Matthews:

And, by the way, it's going to happen at the one after that If you're not actually confronting people, addressing the challenges, addressing the communication issues, the broken promises. You know, hey, mrs Manager, I joined you said it was going to be a hybrid role and then I go remote in three months and I didn't get to do that. I feel betrayed, I feel like I've been snookered. You said I was going to get a bonus of 12.5% every year. I've been here three years. I've seen none of it. All I've heard is excuses. You said in six months I was going to get promoted to a solution architect instead of senior consultant. It's been 18 months and every time I broach it I'm pushed away, right.

Josh Matthews:

But if the people just sort of quietly slip out, they're like, yeah, it's not working out, oh, they didn't do blah, blah, this and that. Not only do they walk away with feelings of betrayal from the other company which can manifest and sits in you like ugly, dark glue in your heart. Right, it's not good stuff. So not only does that happen, oh my God, you're bound to repeat it because you never realized. Well, what aspect was you right? Hey, you forgot.

Josh Matthews:

We did try to have you go remote and you were always unavailable on the days off. We could no longer trust you that you were actually at your desk doing work, or hey, we told you that these were the specific ways to get a bonus and this is your record. And maybe you forgot that this was a really important part of that bonus game. And hey, we wanted to promote you. You shared that you knew this skill set and that skill set when you walked in the door and within a month, we knew that you didn't quite have them yet. That set things further back. And, gosh, you know what? We're sorry, because we probably should have articulated that to you sooner so that you didn't feel this way and we could have solved it and corrected it a little bit earlier. And that's on us, but we felt that you misrepresented us or represented you also. So you get to learn about yourself and like, oh gosh, maybe they have a fucking point.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Maybe some of it is me Right?

Dr. Debi Silber:

And this is all stage three stuff. Like think about it. When I mentioned stage three, we're talking about our story, we love our story, so think about it. Now we have confirming evidence to support our belief. You see, it's happening again. They passed me over for that promotion because now it's like we confirm all of our supporting, we have all the supporting evidence and it's easy to blame everybody else and instead of taking responsibility.

Dr. Debi Silber:

You know, I've been in business 34 years and there's a saying that holds true no matter what the topic, and it holds true here too. And it's hard now, easy later. Easy now, hard later. Take your pick, it's going to be one of those two. And when it comes to healing from betrayal, I'm talking about hard now because you're assessing every single thought, behavior, action that comes in where the person you just described. That's easy. Now they're not making the changes, they're not looking, they're not assessing, they're blaming, they're giving their power away. Now somebody would say to me what are you talking about? I'm miserable, this is very hard. Yes, your scenario is miserable, but you're not doing the hard work I'm talking about of changing those boundaries.

Josh Matthews:

It's the hardest thing. It's so freaking hard, oh my God. But when we do that, we have to, we put ourselves out there, because what we're doing when we're setting boundaries at least in my experience, when we set boundaries we're putting the relationship at risk. It's a tricky thing, that moment when you finally have let's just call it the grit and the resolve to put yourself out there. I don't think there's a more vulnerable moment because you're risking everything, right. So you better make sure you know what that boundary is and that that is actually your breaking point. It is terrifying.

Dr. Debi Silber:

And I think it's fair to say, don't ever expect that to get easy. It's never going to be easy, but easy isn't what's going to create that change. So actually in the study there were three groups who did not heal. The first was the group that they were numbing, avoiding distracting. They ran to the doctor who put them on a mood stabilizer or anti-anxiety medication. They were drinking. Whatever they were doing, it may have made the day a bit easier to get through, Not without a price. They, whatever they were doing, it may have made the day a bit easier to get through, not without a price they didn't heal. The second group this was the group that had their story. They were sticking with it like that person you were talking about, where it's everybody else's problem. They didn't heal because they didn't take responsibility.

Dr. Debi Silber:

The third group this was the group where the betrayer had very little consequence. So whether it was out of financial fear, you know, let's say it's a home scenario, Someone's, just they don't want to, you know they don't have the finances to live alone. A work scenario they're afraid to lose their job, right, Religious reasons, whatever it was. They did all they could to look the other way. With the betrayal, I saw two things with this group. Number one, a further deterioration of the relationship. And number two this group by far was the most physically sick, but we're so afraid of those consequences this is what we talked about with the boundaries we're so afraid of those consequences, but that's the only way we create change. Yeah, yeah, whether it's a new us, where it's like you know what that's it, I'm moving through stage five regardless or a new collective, Eventually you rebuild a very different relationship with that boss, that coworker, that partner, based on new levels of respect, new boundaries, new everything that's strong.

Josh Matthews:

I really liked what you said in your in one of your episodes you're, you're saying, look if you're, you know your, your radiator breaks. Or your said in your in one of your episodes you were saying, look if you're, you know your, your radiator breaks, or your, whatever, your, your hot water heater breaks in your house, you fix it. A window breaks you, you, you fix it. But when a tornado comes through and completely levels your home, you have to rebuild. Are you going to build the same house that got knocked down, or don't you want it to be maybe a little bit bigger, maybe a little nicer, maybe configured a little bit differently? Like that's that opportunity of transformation that comes from that trauma of betrayal. So I really like that. I wonder if I can ask about what happens towards the end of stage four. So you're in stage four and now what?

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah, so now, when you're settling into this new, very hopeful, very new and exciting, what do I need? What would be a great next step for me? Now you move into the fifth, most beautiful stage, and this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. We didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier, now we do. The mind is healing. We're making those new rules, we're making those new boundaries based on the road we just traveled, and we have a new worldview based on everything we see so clearly now. And in the beginning, remember, it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five Cs.

Josh Matthews:

Yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I would love to talk a little bit about how the folks listening to this program can actually understand like, hey, am I creating betrayal in the workplace as a leader? I think most of the people who listen to this are. You know, have people reporting to them, or are they bringing in symptoms of outside betrayal into the workplace? How do they, how can they take stock of what's actually happening? What are the signs.

Dr. Debi Silber:

It's a great question and the first thing is, hopefully, hearing the five stages you hear. Are you stuck in that stage three? Because it's not your fault, that's what most people do. But how are you showing up? It's typically a response to an unhealed betrayal. So think about it.

Dr. Debi Silber:

If you're struggling to trust, which is a natural, you know response to betrayal, how is that lack of trust showing up in all of your you know, in all of your decisions and all of your relationships? If you've been, your confidence was shattered. Well, how is that affecting how you show up in your you know, in your workday and all those other things that you have to do and your ability to speak up? It's taking a look at even your ability to discern. Because, think about it, if we didn't even see this betrayal coming, we're like I can't even trust my own decision making, right. Even see this betrayal coming, we're like I can't even trust my own decision-making, right?

Dr. Debi Silber:

So you want to take a look and say whether it was a betrayal. It really is. It doesn't matter if it was a betrayal within the workplace or outside of the workplace. It is greatly impacting the workplace in your ability to feel safe. You know, if you think you're just going to get fired because you can't trust anything. So, between a lack of trust, between your ability to discern, between your think about it, the physical signs you're exhausted, yeah. So how could you be creative? How could you?

Josh Matthews:

perform at your best. You're exactly right. I mean, look, I've noticed when someone is in a situation and there are these really interesting psychometric tests that I like to do and some of my clients will utilize them just to make sure that the team dynamic is going to flow it's going to be really solid. One of the things that's amazing about this particular psychometric evaluation is you can see sort of what someone's natural state is right, a little bit beyond just the Myers-Briggs MBTI type stuff. You can also see how they're having to behave, what is the persona that they're having to take on right?

Josh Matthews:

So, for instance, if I'm an ENTJ and I went and got a job working at an engineering company, oh my God, that would not be good, right. But I'm having to go through detailed reports and make sure that every T is crossed and every I is dotted and I'm having to operate as a sensor and not an intuitive right. I'm having to force myself to be something that's not naturally. It's not a natural setup. The way my brain is wired right, that's going to. You'll see the stress. You'll see how much someone is living outside of their high functioning self right.

Josh Matthews:

And it's such an incredible thing when you're on a team or with a partner that you actually just get to be you, and then you're always enough.

Dr. Debi Silber:

But think about it. That requires a level of safety that you don't feel coming off of a betrayal, so you don't feel safe. How can you relax and be you? That level of vulnerability is terrifying. Look what happened the last time we were vulnerable, See. So, until and unless it's all healed, we're bringing whether it's outside or inside, we are bringing this to work with us every single day Critical thinking. We're in survival, we can't think right, we can't. We're physically not Think. We can't think right, we can't.

Josh Matthews:

We're physically not think about it when you just have a toothache and you're trying to work right, oh God, yeah. So imagine your toe hurts, or something like it. Exactly, yeah.

Dr. Debi Silber:

So when we have our heart hurting or when we're just exhausted, we have all these physical symptoms, the gut issues, like I mentioned. We can't bring our best to anything or anyone.

Josh Matthews:

Yeah, it issues. Like I mentioned, we can't bring our best to anything or anyone. Yeah, it's so difficult. What is a specific action that an individual can make? Let's start. I have two questions around this. The first one is what can they do for themselves? Let's say they say they've listened to this show or they've listened to some of your read, read your books. They're like wow, I really am stuck here in stage three, like I'm just I'm stuck. Okay, what, what now? What can I do?

Dr. Debi Silber:

You know the the first of all and this is going to sound crazy but check the benefit of staying stuck. You know people say benefit. What are you talking about? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're getting lots of benefits from staying there. You don't have to make a move, you don't have to create change, you don't have to shake up anything or anyone around you. So I would say check those benefits.

Dr. Debi Silber:

There are actually four questions I would invite everybody to write down. That's my way of saying write those down. So the first question would be and this is how you see if you're stuck. So the first question would be and this is how you see if you're stuck Am I numbing, avoiding distracting? If so, how Right, like, call yourself on it. Are you walking into the kitchen? You're not the least bit hungry. And there you are, you know, shooting cabinets. The second question what am I pretending not to see? Am I pretending not to see? I hate this job. Am I pretending not to see? I hate this job. Am I pretending not to see that I'm ignoring these glaring signs of abuse at the workplace or a betrayal, the ward, whatever? The third question what's life going to look like in five to ten years if I keep this going, play out exactly the way you're handling or not handling this scenario and look at it five to ten years, ignore it.

Josh Matthews:

I love that Tony Robbins has a process called it's called the Dickens process. When you're looking at the past, the present, the future, like the ghost is leading you through, like, okay, if this never changed in five years, what's your life like in 10 years? What's your life like if it's 20 years and you never made a decision around this, you never changed anything. What's that like? I've gone through it. I've helped some of my clients walk through that process. My partner's gone through it. It is transformational, at least for me. That's my favorite part. It's transformational to be like, okay, time to take action, because the stakes we've been minimizing in our head yeah, what's actually at stake? And what is at stake is the rest of our life yeah, and our happiness and fulfillment.

Josh Matthews:

It's a massive thing and that's why.

Dr. Debi Silber:

And that's why the fourth question is what can life look like in five to 10 years if I change now? I'm not saying it's easy. Transformation begins when you tell yourself the truth. Yeah.

Josh Matthews:

Beautiful, beautiful, this individual. Let's say someone comes into the workplace. Let's say there's a leader. They've gone through this process either knowingly or unknowingly, but they're a healthy adult with excellent leadership skills. They've got one or more employees and they're seeing through their behavior, either through lack of showing up, through lack of showing up, hostility, passive aggression, like one of your coaches shared too many days absent. Yes, they're getting unhealthier. The clients aren't happy with them. How can they gently or powerfully disrupt that cycle and be a help? Yeah, and is it even their place?

Dr. Debi Silber:

You know, I'm so glad you're bringing this up, because this is one of the things that we're finding where betrayal happens all the time.

Dr. Debi Silber:

It's just not spoken about. So we're trying to make it just common language within the workplace. There's no blame, there's no shame, but let's treat the challenge for what it is Instead of just ignoring it or acting like it's not there. It's costing companies millions and millions of dollars Because think about it they're sending someone to therapy or paying for their healthcare or whatever. And meanwhile, if you like, I shared the woman with the 70 plus year digestive issue. Right, when we deal with the root, they're healed. So if we're able to have this conversation from this place of listen I'm just mentioning the word betrayal here. You know, could this be what's going on? We can actually handle the root cause of what's happening so that we can shave decades off of this person's pain, off their suffering, off of their, you know, just improve their health, their wellbeing, their productivity, their everything you want in someone at work can be healed when they healed from their betrayal.

Josh Matthews:

What might be, debbie, what might be a word track that a leader or manager can use, that can broach this subject, but still be HR compliant, not be inappropriate, not make someone feel like I see inside your soul and I know what's wrong with you, which can make them, if they're not ready for stage four, can often worsen things, or we get filters right. It's like the boss said this they're trying to help, but they heard it's like you're not enough and you're fucking up right.

Josh Matthews:

What's a safe word track that hopefully can actually create momentum in the right direction.

Dr. Debi Silber:

It's interesting because that was why I wrote my most recent book, so that it becomes this sort of corporate wellness tool that's subtly letting everybody know it has nothing, it's not your fault, it's not whatever, but it's affecting the workplace and let's handle it. That's why I wrote the Betrayal Recovery Roadmap. But what a lot of people have been doing in the past was like hey, did you see that TEDx talk? It's really interesting.

Josh Matthews:

The third party subtle hit. I love it, I love it. Let's continue the conversation just a little bit longer. In what ways? We've talked a little bit about how an individual can experience betrayal and then consequently suffer from that betrayal in the workplace might be able to do to confront them so that they can either decide I can live with this or I can't live with this, depending on what stage they're in right.

Josh Matthews:

Yeah, so in your work around the country, around the world, what have you seen are the most common types of betrayal in the workplace?

Dr. Debi Silber:

Yeah, well, it's definitely. You know, the way I describe a betrayal is the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule, and every relationship has them right. So in the workplace was there a spoken or unspoken rule that's been violated, and typically the betrayal is without your awareness or consent, someone chose to break that spoken or unspoken rule. So when we're working with our clients who have experienced this workplace betrayal, we will very often because our whole intention is, every single time we sit down with anybody how do we move them towards the next stage, incrementally or in some degree, moving them out of this one stage into the next.

Dr. Debi Silber:

So very often I will assess it something like this I'll ask them about their job how do you like your job? And they may say, oh, I love it, I just can't stand my coworker. Well then we're going to go in one direction. But what if they say something like you know, I really can't stand it? Now we can look at it and say this whole experience may have been the motivation you need to start something else, like I'm not telling you to quit your day job here, but maybe you know. And then I'll ask them and I'm watching them, you know, what is it that you like oh, I really want to do this or that or the other thing. Okay, would you have ever, you know, considered that had this not happened?

Dr. Debi Silber:

And then, it just like smile on their face. They're like you know, and now they're not even angry with their coworker who stole their credit, you know, credit for their idea or whatever. They're grateful because you're like wow, they really gave them incentive.

Josh Matthews:

Well, and it stops like as soon as you move on. You've actually moved on, yeah Right, which is powerful. You actually go from that love that turned to hate. You actually get to indifference, which is a very comfortable place to be around people that have betrayed you.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Even better than that, you get to a place of compassion, because now you're grateful that that person did that. Now you're going to pursue something you love.

Josh Matthews:

I love that, Debbie. That's fantastic. It's been wonderful to have you on the show. I want to make sure people stick around so that they can hear exactly how they can find your books, learn more about you, follow your podcast and even engage your organization's services too. All of that's going to be posted in the notes below on YouTube. It's going to be in the notes on the podcast as well. If there's one message that someone should walk away from today, yeah, I can't even leave it as one.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Can I give you two? Why don't you give me three? Go?

Josh Matthews:

ahead, give us three.

Dr. Debi Silber:

I want to give you two. I want to say, even though it happened to you, it's not about you If you have to repeat that a million times it's worth it. The second thing I would say is there's a predictable, proven, research-based roadmap to move through all of it. Staying stuck is a choice Beautiful.

Josh Matthews:

Thank you, Dr. Debbie.

Dr. Debi Silber:

This is fantastic.

Josh Matthews:

I am stoked about having you on this program and thank you so much.

Dr. Debi Silber:

Thank you so much.

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Josh Matthews

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