The Meteor co-founder Doug Zell Built Pioneering Cafe Brand Intelligentsia in the Mid 90s_Part 1/2

Doug Zell is the cofounder of various businesses including Intelligentsia Coffee, Allied Cyle Works, and of course, The Meteor, where you can find him fastidiously attending to the smallest details of the cafe, bike shop and wine bar. What unfolds in part 1 of our 2 part interview, is a story about racing bikes in the midwest in the 80s, pioneering the modern coffee industry in the 90’s and discovering an appreciation for design in the aughts. If you listen closely, you’ll notice that Doug was at the forefront of the "direct trade" movement, which nurtures relationships directly with native growers in order to enhance businesses on both sides of the transaction. This first installment, with its focus on establishing a consumer aesthetic, sets the stage for why Doug is an outsized contributor to Austin’s bike community. We’ll cover that in Part 2. Please enjoy this remarkable episode, as Doug’s experience and vibe make him a special addition to our guest list.

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My business partner who, you know, we both grew up in Wisconsin and he was at he was at the his gym and he saw somebody he went to high school with from Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin. And, you know, the guys, I guess, smart guy and Chris said, you know, what's what's going on? What are you doing these days? And he's like, I work at Whole Foods. Right? So In Austin, that could mean, like, you're you're stocking the shelves Yeah. Or, like, you know, working in produce Yeah. Or something else. I mean, so then and that that's all he said. And they're, like, great, good to see you. Like, let's catch Yep. You know, we whatever. We're working on this sauce that we wanna drink in Whole Foods. And then Chris goes back, and he's he's the CEO of Whole Foods. Hey. This is Sam Huntington, and you're listening to Hill Climbers. Over the last 10 years, I've ridden bikes In Philadelphia and then LA and more recently, Austin, Texas. And it's been one of my life's pleasures to meet hundreds of cyclists over the course of this time. And, sure, there's been friendships and camaraderie built around some healthy competition on group rides and and on Strava, and and that's great. But Hill Climbers is really paying homage To those, cyclists I've met that I admire off the bike. These are individuals that have really fascinating stories. They're they're building businesses or or they're part of the cycling zeitgeist in alternative ways. And I think It is a a fantastic opportunity here with this podcast to tell stories of what they're doing off the bike that, maybe you you would never hear about on the group ride riding next to them. In setting up this intro, I was compelled to borrow from The Big Lebowski, in which Sam Elliott opens with a monologue about why the dude is the man for the time and place. Sam was talking about a particularly lazy Angelino. And, of course, on this show, we're talking about an enterprising contemporary Austinite. Doug Zell is the cofounder of various businesses, including Intelligentsia Coffee, Allied Cycle Works, and, of course, The Meteor, Where you can find him fastidiously attending to the smallest details of the cafe, bike shop, and wine bar. What unfolds in part 1 of our 2 part interview is a story about racing bikes in the Midwest in the eighties, Pioneering the modern coffee industry in the nineties and discovering an appreciation for design in the aughts. If you listen closely, you'll notice that Doug was at the forefront of the direct trade movement, which nurtures relationships directly with native growers in order to enhance businesses on both sides of the transaction. The 1st installment, with its focus on establishing a consumer aesthetic, Sets the stage for why Doug is the dude in Austin's bike community. We'll cover more on that in part 2. From Please enjoy this remarkable episode as Doug's experience and vibe makes him a special addition to our guest You know, I've been chatting here with with Doug Zell who among many other things is is one of the founders of of the meteor, and we'll talk about the the other businesses as well. But, Doug, I feel like we we have a lot to discuss. You you, your life has has really Kind of, I feel like straddled, exactly what, we like talking about in the show, you know, which is bikes and and business. So, yeah, Yeah. I guess just to just to kind of kick things off, best question to start with is how'd you start riding bikes? What would you how'd you get into it? So I start you know, I I raced as a kid, you know, I grew up in Milwaukee Yeah. Which actually at the time in the late, you know, mid to late eighties. You know, the American riding scene was pretty strong. You know, it was like the Lamond era, the Haydens Yeah. Speed skating, you know, them racing in the Olympics, etcetera. If I'm getting that right, I think that's So how so so if we're If we're comparing the Lamond era to the Lance era Right. How does that stack up? You know, it was it was a really fun time. I mean, there particularly in in the upper Midwest because a lot of a lot of the kids that speed skated Mhmm. Would ride bikes in the summer for training. Okay. So that was very common. It was very accepted. And then, you know, the cold states also have a a long history of, like, endurance sports whether it's cross country, you know, cross country ski racing Yeah. And, you know, and and whatever, fall sports like cross country, it it it's very big in that or was very big in that part of the world. And, you know, there's a series now that's become tour of America's Dairyland that back then was called Super Week. Mhmm. So that was like, you know, at my a doorstep. Okay. So I started, you know, you know, bicycle touring with my friends, I would say in my, you know, mid teens, and I think my parents were And this this was, like, the eighties? This was yeah. Okay. I mean, I I, you know, erased, I I I think, what what would be 8 80, you know, like 80 to 84 Okay. Kind of thing in in high school. I graduated from college in 88, but I stopped racing when I went to went to college, essentially. So And you're you're one of the one of the few folks that I I'd I'd strike up conversation and, you know, and ask people how they got into riding all the time. And and it's pretty rare for Americans to be riding bikes and racing bikes that early. So I I'm always I'm always really tickled and Fascinated by it. Yeah. No. I I think it it was a really fun time. You know, we were discussing this before, we we, you know, got to this interview if you will. It was a great era where juniors juniors racing was, like, blowing up and I'd roll to the races with some of the better, you know, seniors racers Mhmm. You know, whatever category 1 racers and and race all over the Midwest, and it was it was really a great way to see, like, that part of the country Yeah. Meet other people. You know, when I went to the Olympic training center. My roommate was Frankie Andreyo. So it's like, you know, we went we went different directions in racing and Yeah. And, but it was a a really a wonderful time, and it was a sport that I just I adored it, you know. And then and then there wasn't really a collegiate, much of a collegiate scene developed at all. Right. And I think if there had been, I might have dipped into that, but it was you know, I What? I raced for, I wanna say, 3 or 4 years. Raced a little bit in New Zealand. You know, graduated from high school early to go do that. From And raced in New Zealand meaning went went to New Zealand to race. Yeah. Well, I I I graduated semester early and, you know, winter in the Upper Midwest is not wonderful so I was, you know, in in Auckland in and around Auckland and and rode and raced around there which was super cool. And it has 17 year old becoming an 18 year old. How'd you end up there? I mean, how how that Well, because it you know, I think that my concern was that, you know, do they speak English? Yeah. So that was part of it. You know, it also has an interesting, pretty successful racing tradition for being such a small country, 4,000,000 people, you know, great geography to race. Did you did you have a relate was a did you have a friend from No. But I had a actually, I had a buddy who went and, When as an exchange student, I wanna say junior in high school, played rugby, said he loved it. I went out to, like, the cycling association there, found someone to, like you know, that I could go live with Right. And, who was on their national team and had a younger brother. So it was really wonderful. I mean, it was just super cool Yeah. You know, see the world and, you know, again, spoke English, you know, just had to ride on the other side of the road. Totally. But it was, I I loved every minute of it. You know? Right. I loved all of my early cycling experiences and actually, you know, have been racing as a master's racer, and it's funny that there's There's actually a kid on a kid, like, I love that. As I'm 57. There's there's a guy on my team now that I raced with when I was in my teens. Okay. And I ran into him on the trail in, in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And I was like, Nelson, is that you? And he's like, Doug Zell. And and and we raced against each other's kids, you know, he was always a little bit better than me and still is, but he's now the associate dean of the MIT Business School. So, you know, smart guy, which is just an interesting guy. So Yeah. So it it's it's, you know, to to reunite with folks like that and and, And, you know, masters racing now has become really lovely too and that, you know, you get into your fifties and no one wants to really hurt hurt each other, put each other under the curve, all that stuff. So The conversations you have and the community that exists is really is really compelling. They're fun. Yeah. I mean, just interesting folks. Yeah. You you know, and and a lot and a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of clever people, a lot of people may have go into coaching. It seems like those, you know Right. So those are the folks that are that are racing now. So I, you know, I I raced when I was younger, and then I I wanna say I took a 20 what was it? Like, a 29 year break. Okay. Yeah. I didn't I didn't know that either. So I took a bunch of time off, you know, I mean, starting Did did you burn burn out or or it was Yeah. I think it was I think it was just one of those things that There was a choice of trying to go on and race in Europe and go or go to college and etcetera etcetera and I said, you know, let's go to college. So home. The the year in New Zealand came back and went to I I know I did I did I did like a I did winter. It was like 5 months in New Zealand and and then came back and decided like I should just, you know, I'm I'm pretty good. I'm not probably not good enough to Right. Make a profession out of this. And, yeah. So I mean, went to college, forgot about it for a long time, and, you know, led a couple of lifetimes between then and now. And, yeah, and got, you know, got back on the bike and, you know, when I was 47. As a kid, you were really into cycling, pursued the passion, and then you you've done some a few really interesting things, as part of your career, you know, outside of cycling. So I'm I'm curious what what were you like as a kid? I I mean, so so much of what you've done in your career is is sort of aesthetically driven with with, you know, food and and coffee, and And literal design aesthetics. So, like, what kind of kid were you? What yeah. I think I was very similar to what I am like now. Mhmm. I think that, you know, My parents were, jewelry designers. So, you know, I don't wanna say grew up there. Both of them were? Yeah. They worked together, you know, his own. Had had had a small shop, you know, I I saw them go from, you know, putting, you know, beads on strings and feathers and all that stuff. Again, realize this was, you know, this was, like, late seventies, early eighties. Yeah. There's still sort of room into it. The picture is Yeah. It ripped for me. So I I, you know, they They the the if I can make it quick, my my mother was a, you know, beautician, whatever, you know, managed a beauty salon and then somehow owned it, and then my dad kind of did a bunch of different things and started making jewelry and showing it in her beauty salon, and then that kinda took off, and then they started doing art fairs, and I, like, slept in the back of the you know, back behind their booth. Wow. And then it, you know, transformed from a business that was, like, feathers and beads to, like, diamonds and gold. So They they were entrepreneurs. Yeah. Yeah. So so I I I saw that process and, you know, I enjoyed it and I, you know, help whatever at the help cell or whatever it was. Right? So I you know, it was it was, like, you know, and from, you you know, like, the Wisconsin state fair to the Elkhorn County Fair. I mean, some of these, you know, where the people next to us were selling vacuum cleaners. Right. So watching that, was cool. Yeah. I I so I so I think that they did their own thing and to me, you know, there was there was certainly design in that, you know, I I wish I could draw or paint or do sculpture or something like that, I I I I'd love to say that I can, but I'm not particularly good at it. Mhmm. But I can tell you what I think looks good. Yeah. So, Which is very valuable. Yeah. So so I think that it It, so he no. I mean, I think design was considered in in the house that I was growing up. And I think that, you know, they went from, you know, from nothing to something, you know, sort of before my eyes and kind of be in in a in a period where I could see some of it and maybe understand some of it. I think you don't really Understand what that trajectory looks like until much after it happens. Mhmm. You don't have the capacity to really understand. So they they, Grew their jewelry business and and did they end up owning a store and a and a brand? Yeah. They had a store. Right. Okay. Yeah. And they did, like, custom design rings and stuff like that. Got it. So, yeah, that they they they built and sold whatever one and and retired. Got it. So I saw that. I think that, you know, I think that I didn't realize the importance of design and what I'm did and didn't know or consider, so much later in life. Mhmm. I I think that you don't there's a point where it it probably it hits you how important design is. Yeah. And and some people, it never hits them. Yeah. They don't see it, and that's fine. It's it's not it's not it's not good. It's not bad. But I think that once you realize how important it is and how you feel about things when you walk into a place, and those pieces are considered, you can't once you know it, it's hard to un unkrow it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that it it's it's profound when you see things that are, Yeah. That are that you walk in and it it, like, you you look like, woah. What's going on here? Yeah. And I think that that became clearer to me in the process at, at Intelligentsia as we as we developed, you know, what what we wanted the brand to look like and then what we wanted the cafes to look like. And I think it was really, you know, a credit to when we moved when he opened our 1st cafe in Los Angeles and meeting some very talented architects and just worldview and the way other people saw that. That's so so interesting. So that, By the way, to catch everyone up, Doug was a co founder of Intelligentsia, which is a, you know, very well respected, Coffee brand that, you know, I think I think you started in the mid nineties or 95. And, and really it grew, You know, I I obviously, not an overnight success but, but it really grew, meaningfully with with Incredible design aesthetics and and obviously incredible coffee. Yeah. So sorry. Sorry. No. No. That's alright. That's alright. No. 20 years to an overlay. Yeah. Success we like Right. But that but that was I think that when we got to, the cafe in Silver Lake, that was when it occurred to me that how how important design was Right. And what was considered and Which was materials in 9 2007 Right. We opened. So I I think that's really interesting because you, You know, you build this brand that today to to me means premium Right. Premium design, premium coffee. Yes. And it wasn't until, you know, 12 years after you you all start or so that, you know, that really hit hit you in the in the face as far as how how important, the entire aesthetic of the experience, the location, the design piece, you know. I think that, You know, there was a bit of good fortune in all the pieces coming together and the people you meet and the connections you make. And I think it was at that point that our sourcing and, you know, our the the the barista craft and all of those things were, It it was a bit of a lucky moment in time when they all when they all came together Yeah. In one place. Yeah. And I think that that's and also, frankly, it's when, from Los Angeles from a from a cultural standpoint and an artistic standpoint was also ascending. Okay. I would say it was the you know, it was when Los Angeles and, like, Brooklyn were taking off. Got it. So and frankly, that part of town in Los Angeles, Silver Lake Park, Los Feliz. All of that was just it was so cool. It was just really wonderful. And I think that it led me to believe as a kid from Milwaukee, that, you know and and part of the DNA of Los Angeles that's so impressive. It's just that creativity is like a birthright, like, go for it. Right? And and and everything's like, well, Let's have a look. Yeah. You know? And it's and it's not like, oh, I gotta walk by 200 times for us to consider it. Like, let's go check it out. People people are supportive, you know, really across the board in a way that the, you know, East Coast, it's not like that. It's different. It's different. It's different. You know, and and I think that so so I think that was lucky and and and really impacted how I considered things. Mhmm. You know? And I and I also met some people there that, you know, were younger and doing some really clever stuff with design. Mhmm. I was I was impressed with how confidently they were moving forward with it. Cool. They weren't like, oh, I don't think this is gonna work. Right. And it occurred to me that a big part of why what they did worked is they had conviction about it. Mhmm. So I thought, well Yeah. It seems like a good idea. Very very cool. Yeah. So so so I think that that was when it occurred to me that having a point of view and and really getting behind it, was the right way to do things. Yeah. It it it because otherwise, if you if you if it's too guided by trying to take in what everybody thinks, and that's a nice thing to do. Yeah. But I just I just don't know that you get to something that is that really, Avangard or out front or Yeah. You're following the curve. You're you're not you're not setting it. So so there is some risk in doing things that are a bit more out there, but boy, it's it's so fun. From Can we take 1 step back? And can you give give us the kind of, You know, hard to sum it up, but but give us the kind of origin story for Intelligentsia. Yeah. For Intelligentsia? For for maybe we source coffee or for which part? The whole thing. Yeah. I I guess I guess the whole thing, if if you could just let let the listeners kind of know a little bit Sure. About the brand. I I think that, you know, it it started humbly as a a cafe that roasted its own coffee in Chicago. Right? Yeah. There was there was, you know, I I worked for a couple of Which which was uncommon. Right? Yes. It was uncommon. It was uncommon, which now sounds like Crazy town. Silly. Right? It's sort of, you know, it's like saying, you know, then there's, like, a couple of craft brewers, which at the time is all also true. Right. So the idea of a, you know, a little roaster inside of a coffee bar was not typically considered. It was so strange I still remember, like, the city of Chicago trying to figure like, what's the permit like, who do we bring into approvals, etcetera. So, you know, at that point it was just fresh freshly roasted coffee, and and we knew very little, you know, You'd have the importers send coffee and you taste it or you wouldn't or whatever you, you know, and say that's good. We didn't know much about the seasonality of the green coffee. We didn't know much about what the supply chain looked like really. You know, we we just wanted roast coffee and then the and frank and frankly in 2000 1995, 1996, the barista half thing was not yet a thing either. Yeah. It was, you know, it was lots of milk and etcetera. So sloshing it in after the, you know, darkly roasted espresso. So so Isn't it crazy that we can barely remember that the time when when that was the case where, you know, there there wasn't like Well right. And and, again Intricate coffee, being offered everywhere. Evidence that if something Yeah. That that a small idea can spread far and wide if it's well conceived Yeah. Is not something I would have thought if you asked me in 1995. Yeah. And now I would say, yeah. That's the thing. Right. And then if you can take it and you can endure the hard part of getting it started and having enough and convincing enough people to believe in it Yeah. Then it can really be something. Yeah. But I think it's that ability to endure at the beginning that is very hard for people to do. Yeah. And it's not not the overnight success. Right? It's No. It's not. And and it's not it's not it doesn't take 10 year It doesn't take 18 months. It doesn't take it takes it, you know, and I tell this to other people it takes at least 5 years. Yeah. At least 5 years. Yeah. So expect it to, like, be really hard for 5 years. Really hard. Like, so hard that you're wondering most of the time why you did it. Yeah. Right? And then it then it becomes something and then it makes sense why you did it. Right. Before the trough. Yeah. It was fair. Yeah. But yeah. But before that, you're like, oh my god. I should have just stuck with what what everyone else is doing. So, so anyway so then we began to dig into the sourcing piece, and I remember there was a moment, you know, we had traveled with an importer to Mexico and and and another one to, you know, Costa Rica. And there was a point where we realized that, Oh, gosh. The people that are growing the coffee really aren't getting any feedback from the roaster about what they think about the coffee. It was it was as if you It's it's as if you were, you know, there was a cook back there. There was a cook back there and he was just putting or, you know, whatever. She was putting food through a window Yeah. And no one ever said if it was good or not. Right. They're just like more food and then the price of that was controlled externally Yeah. And the and the person making the food would have no control over what they get paid regardless of the quality. I mean, so that was coffee. It was, like, sold from the the producer into a black hole that they didn't know what the quality was like or or or or it was being they were not being rewarded for it. Right. So we So the the the point you're making is That they could be making incredible premium, growing incredible premium beans or growing beans that were nothing to write home about and they would be paid the same and there was No way to compensate them for I mean, I think there's some people that realize the quality and they also had, you know, geographic advantages of altitude and and infrastructure. Sure Mhmm. The country had put together programs where there were good, you know, meals and and and and and feedback Yeah. In that regard, but it was not particularly widespread. So that was, you know, there were a few moments there where we, you know, we said, oh, gosh. You know, let's see if we can work directly with these people. And then there was the whole challenge of, like, well, There's these importers and they serve a purpose and they serve financing and they can, you know, carry the you know, but then we we figured out a way to go to the bank and there was a, you know, a guy who kind of gave me a break with a building and some other stuff. There's, like, well, why don't you just import it yourselves? And and We're like we're like what? How do we do that? You know? And then not realizing that global shipping had been figured out, you know, whatever 50 years ago, you know, and he was an importer of stuff that, like, Crate and Barrel sold from China in India. And he's, like, it's not hard. You just call this guy. And I, you know, and then I remember making the call and asking how much it was to bring a container from wherever to wherever. Yeah. And I remember, you know, and this is when, you know, mobile phones were not high. I I remember dropping the phone because it was so inexpensive compared to how much we were being charged. Wow. So that was like a woah. We could do this ourselves. Yeah. So, you know, then we Slowly, you know, we And did you have to get the the growers to, cut a side deal with you where they it Well, I think it was an exclusive with them. You had to begin discovering other producers that weren't working with a particular With a collective. With a with a with an importer. But typically, you know, let's say you're You're in, you know, you're in Guatemala or Mexico, and and there's a producer that does good work that's known. There's another one across the dirt road, same elevation, same altitude, same same, you know, same, on the map. Yeah. Yeah. And you and and so you begin to talk to someone like that and figure out a way, like, can we get some of this on a container or can we consolidate or, you know, there's a cooperative in Mexico that's got a a bunch of small growers. Can we so we began to, like, taste and build the coffees with the producers or with the Growers Cooperative and give them feedback and say we'll we'll reward you, you know, we'll score these coffees and we'll reward you with better prices if they score higher. And we'll build these specific lots so they can be delicious. And there was, you know, a lot of mistrust at the beginning because historically they've been working with, you know, exporters and and and that really didn't want them to know where the coffee was going Right. Right. Because they would You know, predatory might be a strong word but but not It just it just was. Right? So so business. So it it was, you know, so we and they're like well why wouldn't you just score them lower and pay us less and and we're like no we want them to be good. Right. And you know, so we to you know, and and we wanted there to be good prices back to producers and reward them for good work, tell their story, and connect that piece to the to the customer and then also, you know, you asked about design and and and and then in 2007 the whole, like, cup pour over all that stuff was catching on too again. So that way so it got to be, you know, we're like well we're gonna charge more for these coffees is because we can tell their story and it's not just everything's, you know, it's not like walking into Weimar. They're like, wine. It's all the same price. So, you know, we began to say, okay, there can be differentiations between countries and origins and regions and and and, you know, micro lots and producers and all those things. So, you know, there there was an elevation in in in what knowledge was available. Yeah. Whether whether the consumer still is caught up to that, you know, hard to say. Yeah. From so anyway so so we really this whole thing that you hear direct trade was was a a term that we coined and modeled and, you know, it it caught on and and frankly in many ways you know it became the premise of of transparency back to the producer is now kind of globally considered. Across all industries. Right? Yeah. So coffee was an interesting Pioneer. In the for it because it's I didn't know that. It's this connective glue that we all, you know, drink, you know, whatever. It starts our day and makes us happy and it's something everyone talks about and, like, many people value a great cup of coffee. So So and are we talking Africa, South America, Central America Yes. Any other markets? Those I mean, those were yeah. I mean, I think those are the biggest week. We also bought some coffee from the Pacific, you know, Indonesia Mhmm. Those places. But I'd say primarily Africa, you know, it it it ended up I wanna say 15 countries around the world and he's we would go country by country and and develop those relationships. Mhmm. So it it, you know, it was it It was methodical Yeah. Place by place and we try and discover somebody and there was, you know, there's and it's still ex there's something called cup of excellence where these producers would submit their and, you know, and and they would go at auction and that was also another great way to find these producers that would wanna, you know, not just sell 10 bags of the coffee, they'd wanna sell a container. You know? So so it was there was a discovery mechanism that way, and we we participated very heavily in the the the beginning days of that as well. From Why coffee? How how did it all start? Let's see. Well, I think that, you know, I I had I like to say I had one real job out of college. I have a degree in history. Yeah. So I don't And were were you ever a, employed historian? I I I I was reading about you and I saw, you know, historian Doug Zell. Just just for a summer, I I worked in the, the the rare Wisconsin. So So technically, yes. The the answer is yes. There was some cool stuff there but, you know, I I think that, you know, the world of academia, you know, let's just say, you know, I've had some, whatever, people I know that are in it. And and It it, it's its own thing and I I don't think it would have been been for me. So, you know, and then I thought I would I would, you know, be a lawyer and I didn't do that well on the LSAT so that that crushed that. Nipped nipped it in the butt. I crushed that to him. So or fortunately. So, you know, went into did well in corporate sales but then, started a bottled iced tea company in 1980. Corporate sales and it was here's a good one. When laptops were being Alright. It just, you know, play the old timey music. So it was when it was That's an important product. Yeah. So it was it was for a company called NEC, which is a big Japanese company. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, at that time, it was, like, NEC and compact. I feel like they they made video games NEC. I mean, then cash registers. I mean there's Yeah. Electronics. Electronics. Yeah. So they're a big company. So anyway did for, like, 10 months and, was good at it but not for me. Yeah. Ohio was my territory. So, you know, was out sitting at a a bar across the street from where I lived in Columbus, Ohio and, like, I asked for a glass of iced tea and they said they were out and this was in 1988. Mhmm. May have been 89. And, and And I was like, gosh. Wouldn't it be great if there was, like, fresh fruit iced tea in a bottle? And they're like, yeah. Crazy idea. And, so I called a buddy of mine who had moved out to, Los Angeles. I'm like, oh, we should try this, you know, figure out a way to do this. So we had a, so then we went out, you know, we we we launched a bottle iced a tea company that was Stevia sweetened Mhmm. In 1989 because we wanted to do something different. And it was like a black tea and like a mint and a herbal berry, I remember, you know, with a painted on label and, it was Stevia sweetened, which at the time sounded like a great idea because it's a non caloric sweetener, but it wasn't generally recognized as safe by the FDA. Mhmm. So then all of our inventory all of our inventory was seized Which is amazing. Right? Like By the by the FDA? Right. Right. Wow. Yeah. So, then we reformulated it with juice and it was it was, his, you know, got cloudy and whatever. But we we got into national distribution like natural food stores, you know, which at the time Whole Foods was still, like, ascending. So Yeah. You know, there's places called, like, missus Gucci's in Los Angeles and I can't remember the others. Yeah. So but Erewhon. Yeah. We didn't we didn't yeah. The first the first iteration marijuana or whatever it was way back when he said. East Coast. Yeah. So it didn't it didn't, it, you know, it it it went belly up after 4 years. So it it didn't it didn't work. 4 years is a run though. Yeah. But it was like not enough. Yeah. But it was like Learn a lot. Credit card debt and, you know, try to my parents or whatever it was. So anyway, So after that I went to go work in coffee, you know, we we started the the tea thing in in Los Angeles then moved it up to the Bay Area. She went to, you know, went to go work in coffee at Pete's Coffee Mhmm. In in in Northern California who was eventually acquirer of Intelligentsia. Yeah. Which is, you know, whatever you wanna say it is. Yeah. And then another roaster called Spinelli that's, you know, now defunct that somebody else bought and, and and whatever. So so and and, you know, the thought there was, like, well, if I, you know, control my own, you know, your own my own environment have a have a have a cafe Mhmm. Where we roast and we can serve the customers, then we have a much greater control over, you know, the the what what happens with the product. So that was the idea. And and I think that Hence the roasting. Right? Yeah. Hence the roasting and and and in store experience and all that stuff. But then We backed into wholesale with Intelligentsia through a series of events with the, you know, like, one of the kind of seminal farm to table, you know, molecular gastronomy restaurants at the time called Charlie Trotters which is now, but, you know, so one of the famous Yeah. Of of that ilk and that, you know, and 1 Whole Foods in in Chicago, you know, went and said hey, you know, they're like, well, yeah, we use local coffee know, it was all this is in Chicago, it's like all from, like, Madison, Wisconsin. I'm like Right. Well, this isn't this is from Madison. Right. Local. So anyway so then they put us in 1 bulk from and that was, you know, who knows? I wanna say it was, like, you know, 1997, something like that. So Well well, one thing we we've talked a little bit La Colom, which which was, you know, a a counterpart competitor Yes. In Philly at the time. And the The legend about La Colom, which it sounds like it's similar with you guys, is getting it into the the the restaurants, the the tastemakers. So people are coming in saying, wow, you know, I I haven't had coffee like this anywhere else. And and then, is that one of the way that one of the way the ways that word Word got out? Or Yeah. I think so. I mean, I think that you could, you know, I'm I'm sure a lot of coffee roasters, if you were to call a 100 coffee roasters, they'd say, Putting it into restaurants on menus can be a good thing or a bad thing because they don't They're not gonna have a TLC. The likelihood of brewing it well or making well, particularly like espresso drinks is it's not high. Okay. It's higher now because a culture has been built like around that values of barista and like you expect the coffee at a high school to be to be much better now than it used to. Right. So I think that that's changed in the value of you know, and and also it used to be, You know, they wouldn't wanna serve good coffee, because then you'd linger too long and they wouldn't turn the table. Right. And I still remember that at a steak house that shall remain nameless in Chicago and went and did a presentation. This was kind of in the early days of wholesale. And I was like, what'd you think? And they're like, we loved it. And they're like, of course, we can't buy it. Not for us. And I was like, what? And I was like, this is the weirdest you know, I'm like, why don't you serve bad you know, because he's like, because then we won't turn the table and I was like, well, why don't you serve bad steak then and then turned the table really quickly. Yeah. And they didn't they didn't laugh. So, so anyway it it it I think that the the restaurant piece is part of it. You know? I think that, but it was showing up in the right it was showing up in Whole Foods first and other grocers like that as well, and then people didn't think grocery was where it should I mean, there's a bunch of, you know, conventional wisdom around freshness of coffee and other things that some of its myth and some of its true and, but I think it was a combination. It it it essentially taught me also that the the the the the brand in its, entirety is important. Right? Yeah. Each each piece. So people will like For lifestyle. Yeah. People will people will give a cup of coffee that's not so great at a restaurant if they've had it at your cafe and they know it's great or they brewed it at home and they know it's great. So I but I do think more people expect to have really good coffee with their meal now than ever before. Yeah. And I think there's a generation that in many ways, particularly for, like, a breakfast or brunch. Like, if the coffee's not good, they're not gonna go get breakfast or brunch there. Yeah. So so on that on that topic, like, my it's my favorite time of the day is when I wake up, I have my espresso machine. Right. I You know, make a latte usually. Right. And, like, that that's the best for me, you know? So, like, literally, it's one of my favorite parts of of the the whole day. Completely agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I you know, it's it's it's do that, pet pet the dogs, stare off into the and and have gratitude that lies pretty good. It it it just and and I'm I'm gonna belabor the point. It's just one of my favorite foods. Yeah. Like period. It it's one of the best taste and feelings. I still say that I I I dream about the coffee that I'm gonna have tomorrow morning You said it. When I go to bed. Alright. So great. I mean, thanks for telling us about it. I don't know if I answered the question. No. Wait. Who cares who cares? We we already forgot the question. Apologies for rambling. This concludes part 1 of this interview. So please keep an eye out for part 2 In which Doug tells us more about the meteor, his restaurant concept that blends cafe, bike shop, and wine bar in one. Doug has plans to expand the meteor and shares them with us in the 2nd part of the episode. If you're enjoying Hill Climbers, please remember to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Thank you for your support.