Big Talk About Small Business
Hosted by Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Our Mission is to inspire, empower, and equip entrepreneurs with the knowledge and insights they need to succeed in their ventures. Through engaging conversations with industry experts, seasoned entrepreneurs, and thought leaders, we aim to provide valuable strategies, actionable advice, and real-world experiences that will enable our listeners to navigate the challenges, seize the opportunities, and build thriving businesses.
Big Talk About Small Business
Ep. 66 - Delegate or Drown: The Biggest Mistakes Company Founders Make
Unlock the secrets to transforming your small business by tackling some of its most insidious issues head-on. What if the key to a more efficient and dynamic workplace lies in breaking the cycle of non-responsiveness and passive-aggressive behaviors? Join us as we peel back the layers of communication barriers and explore practical strategies to foster a more engaging and responsive organizational culture. Learn how to encourage your team to embrace delegation and efficiency, moving away from the safety net of busyness to unlock their full potential.
In the world of business acquisitions, not all buyers are created equal. Discover the stark contrast between strategic and financial buyers and the intricate dance of achieving true synergy. We highlight the often-overlooked importance of aligning incentive structures with overarching company goals and maintaining honesty about acquisition intentions. Through insightful examples, we reveal how the right company culture can make or break the success of mergers and acquisitions, proving that synergy is not just a buzzword but a strategic necessity.
Hiring the right team is crucial, but it's easy to fall into common pitfalls. We discuss the importance of aligning hires with your vision while avoiding the trap of building a culture of convenience rather than growth. Tune in to hear our personal experiences and learn why strategic hiring and a strong online presence can make all the difference. Finally, we emphasize the role of financial vigilance and the sacrifices necessary for sustainable growth, sharing personal anecdotes that illustrate the balance between frugality and business success. Join us for these insights and more as we equip you with the tools to thrive in the small business landscape.
hey everybody. This is another episode of big talk about small business we're back again.
Speaker 1:We're gonna. I told eric today we're gonna have a serious talk. Oh hell, okay, I'm ready, for I don't even know what you're gonna talk about. Well, there's some things I did want to talk about. It's a. It's some things I did want to talk about. It's really dawned on me. It's a big problem. Okay, I'm going to be interested to hear your perspective on this, right, okay, and what this problem is?
Speaker 1:I think it's absolutely pervasive through so many organizations and that is this when people who are in charge of an area, or when partners are dealing with other partners in their business and they make a suggestion and say we should do X, or here's what I think we should do one, two, three and they send that to their. Do one, two, three and they send that to their partners or somebody who works in the company for them or in a client organization, and they just get nothing Dead air, as a response. Okay, I've had a number of situations like that and it becomes a pattern. There's certain people, if they don't agree with what you're saying, they just don't say anything. They don't say anything, they don't go. You know what? I hear you, but here's why we're not going to do that.
Speaker 1:Or here's where I have a problem with that they simply stongwall you and don't respond. It's a passive, aggressive kind of thing. Yeah, no, I agree. And sometimes you got to ask four times yeah, okay, yeah, and you just get no response. If they don't like what you're saying, you get no response. Unacceptable, I agree, I I just am so tired of that. Work it out okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like the start of bureaucracy. That's what that becomes, and if you're running a small business, you can't have any of that stuff going on. You can't.
Speaker 1:You've got to have honest dialogue because the priorities are changing constantly. Anybody who thinks they can make their plan out and it's just execute their plan and it's going to work out and with no diversions or changes along the way, is kidding themselves.
Speaker 2:So what do you do if you're the one that sent out that note? Right, I'm going to confront it.
Speaker 1:I'm not just going to let it sit there and go forever. I'm going to go. I need a response here. Yeah, yeah, I brought this up four times I've got no response. Okay, you're telling me something. What's your problem with it, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, you're telling me something. What's your problem with it? Right, yeah, okay, yeah. And you got to be the one that's insistent on getting that response back, because it's not like it's going to go away and it's not like people are just going to do what needs to be done, and I think a lot of that goes back to that statement. I mean that I've kind of lived by. That keeps me comfort in all this business stuff, which is, by the time you're tired of saying something, people are starting to listen. A lot of times if I've sent a message like that, it's because the team doesn't understand the vision again or as deep as they need to understand it. But it's super critical. If I just let that float out there and it doesn't ever get addressed and I'm not the one that's persistent on getting that response then all it does is just A it completely stonewalls everything and it just makes everything bottle up. But then, b it teaches a habit that that's acceptable and the next thing, you know, that's all that's happening.
Speaker 1:And they're doing it to each other, and other people are doing it because they see their bosses doing that. Here's another problem, though, that absolutely drives me nuts. Okay is when you ask somebody to do something and they tell you how busy they are. Yeah, I can't do that because I'm so busy right now. Okay, wait a minute. Okay, whose company are you working in here? Okay, and you think you're busy. It's like when I tell my kids to do something, I can't do that. I don't have the time. I'm like what are you? Are you out of your mind? You don't have the time. You don't want to make the time because you don't want to do this, but this is what we need to do now.
Speaker 2:And a lot of those things are because the things that have been discussed and planned for a person to do, they do them and they don't ever take the initiative to figure out how to make that particular previous objective process-driven more efficient. Oh, dude, pass it off. Find contractors Bad, I mean just bad managers, bad delegators, bad managers, yeahators, bad managers, yeah, all that, and then they can't fill up their bucket more. I mean there's no way that you can start any position or role and only do that one thing for the rest of your life. Oh, and then get paid more money. Yeah, I know the economics of that make zero sense. It's just not going to ever be possible.
Speaker 1:I have never worked with anybody who tells me that they can't do something because they don't have the time, that I could not figure out where the time could be found. Yeah, okay, it always comes back to what you're talking about. They are doing tasks that there's no reason they should be doing. They should part with those, but they're control freaks. Yep, or they feel like that's some measure of job security that other people don't know how to do those things, which is the worst? Yep, or they like to do those things and they don't give those up, but it's not the best use of their freaking time yeah, absolutely, and a lot of times maybe they're not even ambitious in what they're doing.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean, like when I used to work with you, like if you gave me another thing, I don't think I ever said I don't have the time, no, you would never do that, and I've actually warned you to give me more stuff. That was the intent of what I was trying to continue to learn, and if you asked me to do something, I took that as an appreciation and that you knew I could handle that. Yeah, and I felt good about that, right, and then I'd go try to conquer it and murder it and, by the way, I would knew my position and if I had other people on the team that were better suited for it, I would figure out what you wanted me to do. I'd perfect that, make sure you were good with it, and then I would package that thing up and then I'd go assign it to somebody else that can do it. Yeah, you're really good at that, and I gave them the process to it.
Speaker 1:It's true You're good at that, but you know, my old partner, fred White, used to say smart people are inherently lazy. I don't know that it's laziness, I just think it's intelligence is what it is. It's intelligence is what it is, it's good management. If somebody else can do this, that I can part with this. It frees up my time to do other stuff. And how am I going to make that possible? Of course, as you said, it takes a little planning, it takes a little instruction, but then it takes a willingness to see if they can freaking do it. Yep.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, you know. I mean I think that the older I get, the more I realize like that. You know, business is a lot like marriage, in the sense of where your partner grew up in a completely different atmosphere, learned all kinds of behaviors, make decisions. They have all these fears that are baked up inside every decision that they make. They're human beings. Same thing in business when you hire folks and they get in, you start realizing that a lot of them are scared to spend money from the company, right, Even though I've told them I'm like, hey, you have this budget, go spend it. Or you have the ability to contract. Yeah, they think it's better not to spend it, yeah, yeah, and it's like, oh man, but then it doesn't get done. It doesn't get done and then you can't take on more responsible things that I need you to do to drive the business. Yes, and so I mean I your time's being taken by trying to coach people out of things that maybe they're going to be resistant about doing that for months I mean you're part of.
Speaker 1:The problem is they came to work for you as an employee. Yeah, they're not thinking like an owner of a business. They are more risk averse. Naturally, they think they have a lot of preconceived notions. I see it with my students, you know. When we talk about like in my new venture class the idea of using debt versus equity, they've been taught that debt's all bad. Okay, but wait a minute. If I have debt, I can control my business. I still own it. That's right. I may owe money to everybody, but I own the business as soon as I part with the equity. Now somebody else owns the business. Now we're going to go their direction, but it's so imbued in them that debt is bad and it's because of their upbringing.
Speaker 2:It really is don't get a credit card. Yeah, you know, if you get a credit card, you know spend a hundred bucks on it, paid all off the very next month, and like that's not really leveraging the cash flow like you probably should be able to right, you know, and I mean, and then and then, oh, by the way, if you have debt one place, you're stuck there forever until you paid off off. No, you can refinance it. You're always trying to figure out better rate, better terms.
Speaker 1:Hey, and if I'm borrowing money at 8% but I'm making 50% or 100% return on my invested capital, why?
Speaker 2:wouldn't? I want to do that.
Speaker 1:All day Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why wouldn't I? Yeah, people are just so scared about this horror story of that where you wreck up debt and then you just owe it for the rest of your life. Everybody hates you, you can't ever borrow again, and that's just not. I mean, if you look in history, that's just not what a lot of the entrepreneurs went through. A lot of them went through bankruptcies, but they still continued on. They still continued on.
Speaker 1:The debt too. There's different kinds. I mean, if it's just debt for personal consumption, yeah, that's one thing. But if it's dead and you're, you're taking that debt on so you can support your business, that's right and you can.
Speaker 2:That's another bad those hurdles that you can't get over, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah, but anyway, you're right. I mean the programming, the history, the how people are raised, the culture, all these things affect their behavior when they're working in companies like ours. Yep, yep, and it's difficult, you've got to. Some of them are trainable, retrainable and some of them aren't?
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, I think that you know it's interesting, even like with the company I have now, like there's individuals, that I will invest a little bit more because you can see that they're wanting to break through themselves. Yes, there's a light in there, there is, yeah, and then you know a little flame there, a little flame trying to blow up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you can kind of really see that that ceiling that they don't even know is there, that they put on themselves, but and you can kind of really see that that ceiling that they don't even know is there, that they put on themselves. But you know, sometimes they have to get to this point, to where they have to introspect, they literally have to. It's them conquering themselves. And sometimes it has to kind of get to a road where it's like you know, I just had a case recently that is like you know they have to think about is this what they want to do in life? And then you let them go think, and then you come back and then you know I'm like sitting there, going I don't know which, I'm expecting it to go the way of like look, this isn't for me, but it actually turned out that, no, I'm going to take this on. That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:That's a beautiful thing, man. You see them developing, you see them maturing.
Speaker 2:Oh man, it's gorgeous, it's wonderful, yeah, because that's a forever. That's actually a legacy thing, man Like. If somebody can overcome themselves, then you change your generation, you change your family history and your legacy because you overcome something.
Speaker 1:It's one of the greatest satisfactions of being a business owner 100%, it always comes back to this is to seeing your people succeed. Okay, it's just so. It's better than buying a freaking vacation house, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's better than money man 100% better than money.
Speaker 1:It's so true. Well, we got to pull something out of the hat. Would you like to pull from the hat today, can I? Yeah, please. Thanks, mark. We're pulling out of this YCAT a topic and we're going to talk about this briefly. This one is just one word Okay, what's that? Synergy, oh God, okay. I think a lot of people think it's just a cliche, but it's true. You can't have synergy. Sure, sure you know. I think every acquisition from a strategic buyer, the intent is to have synergy. You know, now, a financial buyer that just wants to keep you out there on the side, there's not going to be any synergy. Right, right, but is it possible? Yeah, it is possible. I think there's a lot of things that work against it, though, in a typical deal structure, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, on the acquisition side. For the word synergy, I mean that's kind of the big goal, but it's actually I mean my experience in acquisitions you know and had a few and I know that you've had a lot more but the integration and becoming synergy with the company that you acquired, or that whole thing, is one of the hardest things that I think that companies can go through. It is there's just not many people that I think that companies can go through. It is there's just not many people that I've seen do it very well, even with their best intentions.
Speaker 1:Well a lot of times the deal structure works against it. I mean, I had this discussion recently with a client of mine who got an offer and we're dealing with the M&A quote advisor. He's trying to get them to take this deal, which was, in my mind, a really crappy, bad deal that they never should have taken which they didn't, thankfully. And there's not going to be any synergy. They say it's a strategic buyer, but then oh, we're going to keep your name the same, we're going to keep you out on the side over there, and a third of the deal is based on your earn out, which is only what you do, what you get and what you do. That's not synergy. And there's no role identified for the seller in the overall company. Their role is just keep running their own business. That's a financial buyer. There's no synergy there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's the point of being part of this network of companies? They're all held out there as individual companies because of the deal structure that you have. And then, what's the integration vehicle? Yeah, do they have like regular meetings? Do all the clients get shared between these companies? Is there some mandatory process that you look for expertise through the entire network of companies if you get a job. No, there's none of that, right, right zero, and if you're the seller if you have the right minds.
Speaker 2:The problem one problem with synergy is on those things is you have one party that really believes it and the other one that really doesn't, but yet you're still using that term as like. That's why you should come together, right?
Speaker 2:yes, if I'm a seller and I can see that it's a just a for the money part of the acquisition, if I can align that, okay, this is what this is. And then I don't have an expectation. I'm not going to spend emotional or time, energy into trying to be centered, having synergy with this new buying company and then just hit nothing but walls. This can be absolutely frustrating, yes, and then you're going to have a bad taste, your team's going to have a bad taste. I mean, everybody's going to be miserable as hell.
Speaker 1:It's like an outright misrepresentation of what the situation is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean I think that maybe buyers should come together, I mean, if they can approach it as in that's what exactly this is, then you don't have all that extra attention to something that doesn't even exist. Yeah, good point. I just want to buy you for your assets. I'm going to do my stuff. Here's the deal. If you want a little third and you want to keep driving your business, but just know that you're going to be over there on your own. If you want to take that, that's good. It makes sense for me financially to pay you that. But there's no integration here, bro. I don't want you to be Be honest. Honesty, Honesty, man, Like I don't want your yeah be honest, honesty, honesty man, it just comes down to honesty, the whole synergy thing is based on a lot of misrepresentation.
Speaker 1:Whether it's intentional or it's a byproduct of the culture and the deal structure, it's a problem. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point. Anyway, I don't know Synergy inside the company. I'm not sure that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that inside the company, with the team, to me that's culture. Right, that is what the culture is. You're trying to have a culture that is synergistic, but that's not a one time thing and you're done. You can't just hope for that. You have to work your butt off. Oh, I'm telling you.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's just a constant initiative and again you can't have your incentive schemes all set up. So you eat what you kill over here and these guys eat what they kill over there. That's right. Never is there any reason for you to cooperate. Ok, that's another common problem. I see it's like the whole incentive structure is geared around how the particular revenue-generating unit performs as opposed to how the overall. I never liked any of that in my companies. I want the overall company to be the only thing anybody cares about.
Speaker 2:But that's your apex of having synergy. Yeah, if everybody's driving the same big number, then you got to find your way to have goals that are driving to that, so that everybody knows that. Okay, what I'm doing is impacting that.
Speaker 1:Yes, some people who run companies are afraid to do that because they say, well then, I'm not holding people accountable, okay, there's no accountability then. Because I'm not holding people accountable, okay, there's no accountability then, because I'm just part of this bigger thing and, like you said, there's got to be a way to measure and report on the productivity. But the thing about that I've found is, you know, businesses run in cycles. You know this. Like you could have a company that serves five different types of clients. These clients over here might be hot for three years, okay, then that market cools down, yeah. So meanwhile, while they're hot, these other ones aren't doing that good, that's right as well, okay, but it you know, three years later the situation changes. Yep, there's a reason why we serve these different groups of clients or markets.
Speaker 2:Plus they're, you know, yeah, no, absolutely Like. I think that's been one of my experiences. We try to. It's so easy for companies to kind of forget their OG clients, which to me, in my mind, is the most important clients, right, because you have this relationship and you try to, you should be able to continue to accommodate them and keep doing what you're doing and get focused on that. You can't keep going for the shiny objects all the time. There's a core, oh.
Speaker 1:God, I tell you that's such a problem in professional service firms. Yeah, it is. They take their original clients for granted and they put their resources on the new clients, and then they put their resources on the new clients and then they use their, their good old clients as a training ground for any fights.
Speaker 2:it's always been one of my pet peeves oh it's like dude, it happens on my side all the time. If I'm a buyer, yeah, like, I'm just like I'm, you know, when I talk to them and I find out that they're going for bigger clients, I'm like I know what's what they're, what they're doing. They're just I I'm deprioritizing you being used. I want your better team. My money, my cash is just as good as everybody else's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't want the second string here.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right, that's true, it's a hard thing to fight.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, I don't know that we're going to get any further on synergy, so our topic for the day is the biggest mistakes company founders make. Okay, what do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Why is that important for people out there in the listener land? I mean, first of all, there's a lot of them. Yeah, there are, and I think that if you go down that road, like a lot of times when you're making decisions and you'll, what I've found is that some of the smaller what I thought were small decisions become just absolutely enormous big problems, and they don't ever and you never have more time than you do right now.
Speaker 1:A great illustration of that is hiring the wrong people from the start. Who do typically new companies hire Relatives, people they know, people who work cheap, friends and family. Yep, friends and family, mm-hmm. That's where the you know, and those are the problems that later on manifest themselves. Yep, as much bigger issues. Yep, easy to make. Now I need something done. I don't have a lot of money, someone says available to help me out, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I think there's difference. You know and you got to. It depends on the role within the company. So like, for example, with podcast videos, what I did is I didn't hire highly experienced leaders in the beginning, Like you know, like I didn't like high earners or experienced people.
Speaker 1:Sure, you can't afford to.
Speaker 2:I mean you're starting out yeah, can't afford to. And then also what I've learned that can be a massive problem. Can't afford to, and then also what I've learned that can be a massive problem. Because what I need to do in the beginning is I have to articulate a specific vision. I don't want my company being another agency or another one of these things. I'm trying to innovate something, I'm trying to create something new and based on my experience and my investment this is my investment and based on my experience and my investment, you know this is my investment and so I want to.
Speaker 2:I need to articulate the vision with tangible results and real work right, and I need folks to get in there and just follow direction and just go into the uncharted territories for them. But I know where it's going. Then I bring on leaders once the work has. We've figured out the work right, you know, and so we're kind of in that stage right now. But I did actually last year hire a leader for more of the business practices the operational, the project management, the you know the financial parts, you know the, the kind of the ones that are, like you know, does actually need to require. It doesn't require anything, you know super specific to our industry. I mean there is an attitude to it.
Speaker 2:But I need somebody that could think and lead in that specific realm. And so I think it's a lot about timing and you know, and even then, like I don't know if I did everything right, but you know, I feel like that it's the right way to go. You know, and even then, like I don't know if I did everything right, but you know, I feel like that it's the right way to go, you know. And then leaders can come in and they can polish really well, yeah, and they can start leading people. You know, Refining, Refining. They're helping guide folks, they're looking at better goals, they're paying more attention to the team that I, you know, maybe couldn't have given that amount of attention to.
Speaker 1:Well, and maybe your people you hired had to be pulled in a lot of different directions too, initially because you can't just hire experts for everything Right?
Speaker 2:No, and then they're doing a lot of things and as you add another person on, everybody becomes a little bit more focused in the lane. You know, at first it's really broad. Right, exactly, and that's a hard thing too. Yes, right, exactly, and that's a hard thing too. If you have one person doing a lot of stuff and you hire somebody else, it's like this person that was doing a lot has a big struggle to let go and let this other person take on work, even though that's what they've wanted the whole time.
Speaker 1:But it's a really hard transition Sometimes they resent them too, they're like well, yeah, of course, they can do a good job with that. That's the only thing they've got to do. Yeah, or they feel threatened, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know? I mean that's going back to the fear stuff, but I think that, like when we're talking about, the biggest mistakes is, you know, when you hire somebody, like it's not just hiring and letting them walk in the door and get to work, right? I mean there there's some preemptive things, discussions you've got to have with the existing team. They have to really understand and you have to be very attentive to the fears that might be being placed in people, and so I try to do a try to do a better job of that preemptive discussions, making sure that such a no this is not a threatening.
Speaker 2:I'm bringing in this. Yeah, this is going to help this. This is help. This is going to help you grow. This is going to help everything out and don't be worried about your job well, I, I've got another situation.
Speaker 1:So it's a company I'm intimately involved with as a, as an owner and, um, you know, when you talk about mistakes that founders make, I mean, the whole culture of the place was based on. This is a lifestyle business. So we hire people who want to come here and have a certain lifestyle. We don't want to work over four days a week. We want to be able to go on camping trips with our buddies. We want to be able to, every Friday night, um, talk about what independent brew pub we're going to and what band is playing.
Speaker 1:Um, if you're following me, okay, we're not necessarily here to build this company. Yeah, to enrich you as the owner, which is not the only purpose of it whatsoever. So to try to get them to go from that's the culture to where we don't want to work that hard. We work here because we don't want to work hard. We don't care that we don't make a lot of money. Yeah, we'd like to make more money. We'll complain about it every so often, but when it really comes down to the nut cutting, we're not going to make any sacrifice to make more money, okay, or make this thing better. So that culture that is created from the get-go, because it starts out as a hobby. Yeah, man, it's a real problem for some businesses. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, that seems like a really great idea, you know Peaceful, but it's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not sustainable. So you're right, You've got to go back to the vision and you've got to explain to people what the real vision is, how that's going to benefit them and change their lives, what we're going to have to go through in order to make that happen. And some of those people will not be there. Some of them, a light's going to go off and say, oh my gosh, yeah, we could do that. I could have a different life than I have right now. Maybe it won't be so hand to mouth. Maybe I can actually pay for my kid to go to college or, you know, have steak instead of 80% lean burger every time. Yeah, you know what I mean. It's like, maybe I could actually. So some people will wake up to that and the vision's got to be one that they see themselves participating in and benefiting from. But I do think you know we're talking about mistakes companies make. We create an expectation on the front end because of a lack of resources or the scale that we're operating at at that time.
Speaker 2:I think it's, you know, on the lifestyle thing, I think that's a really dangerous scenario and I've seen a lot of people do that, especially that have worked a long time in corporate. Yeah, you know, I mean it's first of all. It's, you know, I mean a lot, of, a lot of care work where they were at and they see a lot of things that are happening and they attach that the all the negatives that they experience were because the company is just focused on money. Yeah, you know. And so then they want to start a business that doesn't focus on money, yes, or focus on revenue, you know, yes.
Speaker 1:I've probably been guilty of that myself in the past. Oh yeah, Even comparing my original business to my successor business.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and so you want to create this environment. I don't need the money. I don't need money. We're not after money. We're after friendships and whatever else it might be.
Speaker 1:Building public visions of our art or whatever, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a dangerous thing because if you start out a business with that intent, you're going to basically you know businesses are nothing but a group of people, right, and then you're going to be hiring people based on that reality. But those people, like I, would have loved that type of business when I was, you know, maybe 19 years old and had a great time. But by the time I'm 27 and I have a kid and I'm married, shit changes real quick. No kidding.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and so you're going to have these people that are going to grow out of this perspective. Yes, and they need more. They want more. And you're going to lose people because of that. Good people, good people yeah.
Speaker 3:And they can't find a pathway.
Speaker 2:So I think that there's not a way to start a business that doesn't have an objective to build revenue, grow, have an exit or provide a lot of financial resources.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and maintain good people. I agree with that. I've always said growth has to be. When business owners tell me, well, we don't really want to grow, I'm like, okay, you're not going to have anybody good, that's going to work here eventually. Yeah, okay, you're not going to have anybody good that's going to work here eventually. Yeah, okay, this, it's not going to be self-sustaining. Utopias don't work, do they? No, they don't. So what other mistakes say do you think founders make?
Speaker 2:you know, I think I mean one of the biggest one is not, is not investing in in sales? Yeah, marketing, oh god, yes, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, it's the no marketing, it's, it's so common and you have in in the bucket of marketing is advertising, you know, and you have to invest in advertising. Yep, in your marketing plan. You know? Yeah, you know honestly, at my previous company, we had a like basically a zero dollar advertising budget, however, company. We had basically a $0 advertising budget. However, we had a different way to make sure we were in the public. We did a lot of in-kind marketing support that were already exposed to certain audiences that we wanted to be in front of. So, even though we spent little to no cash, time was invested significantly, and that's money.
Speaker 2:Very much so, yeah, and so I think that if you don't have this relentless pursuit of being out in front, showing up, being in front of your target, and that's not a significant part of your plan, then you're fooling yourself. Because I see, a lot of times I hear like product's the most important.
Speaker 1:I agree, your product is, but if you don't have a way to promote that, then you're yeah, just building a better mousetrap doesn't mean everybody's going to be the path to your door, right? I mean you see this over and over and over again. I mean it blows my mind. I had a tenant in one of my retail centers who had a restaurant. He had really good food. Okay, this guy had his restaurant established in another location. He moves to our location. He doesn't even put a sign up in his old location. I've moved to a new location.
Speaker 1:He does nothing, zero social media posts. Okay, all I could think to myself was, if I had that restaurant, I swear to you I'd put five to 10 posts a day on Instagram and Facebook of my food and my customers enjoying my food. That's right, okay. And if I just did that every freaking day not the days I felt like it, and then not doing it for a week or a month, every single day, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom that guy would have been successful. It's like if you said that to him, he'd be like oh, I don't have time for that. How long does that take? Not long. I can go to the bathroom and put my damn post out. I could sit there at night and make five of them in 20 minutes, 10 minutes probably, and schedule them to go out. Yeah, there's so much you can do. Now. It's like it's not that hard, but they don't do it, you know. But I've got really good food okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but one of the easiest things I can see that you know, especially a business that's a local business, has a local audience, like a restaurant, one of the biggest misses that I see these folks doing that is the easiest thing to do and probably one of the most important is focus on your Google business business, yeah, of course you know what I'm saying. Yeah, your search, your, your search criteria, yeah, just for where your location is on the map, and you go in and you build out that profile, you make sure your hours are accurate, you pay attention, oh god there's so many of you.
Speaker 1:I mean just drive for reviews on that that is so critical there's one business that I again it's interesting because it's the same owners of the one I told you that failed. If you go and you do a Google search and you get their phone number and you dial that number, you know, by clicking on it it doesn't work. That's terrible.
Speaker 1:It hasn't worked in two years. You can't. And they're like no, no, that doesn't work. Like, fix it, for god's sake. 10 minutes. Yeah, I'm trying to make a freaking order from you and I get a random recording. Yeah, because your number's wrong here. Yeah, I mean, it's terrible, it's so easy, but hey, I'm too busy for that. Yeah, don't bother me with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got to be relentless in the sales. I saw another business here locally that was started by one of my former students and her boyfriend's significant other, mm-hmm, and I think they're having some success with it, okay. But then I saw their sign yesterday on North College, mm-hmm, and they've got this sign out by the street. It's elevated and everything. You can't even read the sign, eric. It's white writing on a light pink background.
Speaker 2:There's some fundamentals there.
Speaker 1:What? Wouldn't you notice that? What I want to go slap him. Is that obvious? Wait, what the hell is wrong with you? You can't see that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, one thing I want to go back to the hiring the right people. Okay, well, we're stepping back now. Yeah, well, because how does a business owner identify those people? Because the interview process. I'm not a really big believer in a totally structured interview process, especially for a small business. Yeah, I hear you. How do you find the right people? To me that's like this mystery in a way. I guess that over time I found a way to clue in, but I think it comes back to you have to be able to have something instinctual in you. Yeah, so when I'm talking to people, like I'm really listening to what they're talking about, about their personal life and what's important to them, you know, and I'm trying to gauge how important is it that you come into this business and that you are driving for the growth of the company. Yeah, and if I hear things that are in my mind, counter to that, counter to that, yeah, it's a red flag, it is a massive red flag.
Speaker 1:I think you know I'm a big believer in a consistent process for hiring, but that doesn't mean I believe in a consistent process for interviewing.
Speaker 3:Okay, tell us more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's certain steps you need to follow, okay, like, first thing is is there anybody inside the company? You know, I mean, what do I want somebody to do? Is there anybody inside the company? Is there somebody inside the company who wants that job? Yeah, we ought to at least give them a chance. I mean, there's certain things. Before I run an ad, I should look at my database of prior applicants and see if that got anybody in there, okay. So that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:When I say a consistent product, I mean we're going to write an offer. The offer letter is going to have certain things in it. We're going to give people certain materials on the company. We're going to have a certain you know, we're not going to give them two weeks to make a decision. We give them 48 hours. There's certain things that we always do, okay. And we're going to have a certain onboarding process Okay. All that, I think, needs to be consistent. But when you sit down in a room with somebody and meet them, that's where you know. Do I ask these 10 questions? No, not necessarily. It's what you said. It's like I want to get to know the person. I want them to let their guard down. I don't want them to be defensive. That's the only way I'm really going to figure out what they're all about, and so it takes a much less structured approach, I think I agree, I agree, I'm a big hey, let's have coffee and let's chat, let's meet, let's discuss.
Speaker 2:What's going on? Burby, ben, what have you done? And then, you know, following up with that, like what's the response time? Yeah, noticing, if they've. You know, what have they been doing for the last couple weeks since we started talking? You know, my biggest one is it's like hey, I can't. You know, when do you want to come back in and talk again and keep talking about the job? Well, it's Monday, right, and I met with you on Friday last week. Oh, I'm out for the next two weeks on vacation, right, you know?
Speaker 1:Like no, no, no, no, no. We used to always look at their cars in the parking lot to see what their car looked like. If they were slobs they didn't have to have a nice car or anything. But if it's filthy and you look at the interior and it's all just got fast food trash in it or whatever it's like uh-uh.
Speaker 2:They're not taking care of themselves. It's going to be hard to take care of a company Exactly and take care of a bigger family, no pride.
Speaker 1:I'll never forget one guy that this company. The first day I went there and I was in charge of HR for a particular section of the company it's called Division One, it was Memphis and Little Rock and the boss, the CEO, he was interviewing a guy. The first day I show up for CFO he comes out of his office. He says I want you to meet our new CFO and I meet this guy. Okay, and I immediately got a negative feeling about him. I won't get into my prejudices on why, but I did so I get. I said let me see the resume on that guy, don, so I get it. He's got an MBA from Memphis state, 77 to 78.
Speaker 1:Undergraduate in finance 77 this is like 1983, okay, so I well, first off is before, while he was in there interviewing the guy, went out in the parking lot to see what he was driving. Because we had visitor spots yeah, 72 cadillac deville, no fender skirts. They were gone and no hubcaps on it and I'm like, wait a minute. And this guy's got an NBA. Doesn't look like an NBA car to me. I was driving like a 79 or 80 Saab 900 turbo at the time. That was a yuppie car that you drive if you were an NBA you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3:Not a yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Not a 72 Caddy, yeah, with no fender skirts, and you've got to fix that stuff, and no hubcaps. You've got to fix that and I thought this doesn't add up. Anyway, to make a long story short, I start checking the background out on this guy and I find out he does not have either an MBA or a degree in finance. It was all a lie. I made the CEO Rene, on our offer. Oh wow, I said, don, you hired this guy. Now you got to get us out of it. Lying, okay, lying, deception, first day on the job. But I'm just. The only reason I point that out is, like you say, the signs. Yeah, don't, you can't ignore the signs.
Speaker 2:Well, because bringing on people, especially in service-based business I mean obviously in any business the most expensive investment you can make, it's one of those things where it should be a long-term investment. I mean you don't hire people for a short time period, unless that's exactly why you hired them, but I mean, once that problem starts, that's one of the hardest things to get out of. Oh, I'm telling you, it takes so much energy out of everything. You keep giving people chances, you keep trying to work on it, but if the whole time the source of that person, that individual, is not in line to acclimate, then that problem will never be rectified.
Speaker 1:I saw this video. I know you like Gary Vee. Yeah, yeah, okay, he's fine.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't love him, but he's good with me.
Speaker 3:He makes some good points he does.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, he seems like an asshole. On a certain level he's egocentric or whatever he was talking about. One of the greatest satisfactions of business is firing what you call D-heads yeah, did you see that video? And because they're so negative and there's such a problem that when you get rid of them you feel so good he goes, and sometimes they're great performers, but they're not people who get it. He goes. Good performers are either good performers for one of two reasons Because they are very secure or because they're very insecure, because most are very insecure. Therefore they alienate people around them. Therefore they're a problem. It's very true.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I just thought that was kind of funny the problem is that once you hire somebody like that, it takes a while to start seeing those things come out. A lot of times they're lying, they're fibbing, they're smoking mirrors, yeah and then we delay on making decisions we don't want to. You know we're back to the rest of the nation, don't want to hurt the rest of the team, don't want to start all over again. Oh yeah, that's hard, but you have to do it. You have to do it, you have to do it.
Speaker 1:A couple other things I think people do, aside from hiring the wrong people and doing nothing in marketing, is they don't do a good job tracking their numbers. They don't really follow any kind of financial plan. Yeah, I'm going to be paranoid. I'm going to be looking at my bank accounts every single day. I'm going to be on QuickBooks 10 times a day.
Speaker 1:Okay, to see what the hell is going on. I'm going to have, I'm going to, I'm going to have a cashflow forecast. I'm looking ahead to see whether I'm going to run out of money or not. I am absolutely driven by paranoia about the money, yeah, and I think a lot of people are just too loose and they almost don't want to know.
Speaker 2:I'm guilty man. I admire that in you. I want to know how to do that more Well. You're too well off. No, no, no, that's your problem. No, it's not.
Speaker 1:I mean honestly, like even whenever I was negative, everything I ever had is like got no capital at all.
Speaker 2:Okay, everything I ever had has got no capital at all. I've always been loose on that as far as paying attention to it. I don't know why I need to figure that out. It's not exciting, but it's also like it. You know, it kind of almost is what it is, and so my mind's just 100% on new business. Yeah, like if I can bring more in at the top, you'll solve every problem.
Speaker 1:I understand that logic too.
Speaker 3:Don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:I am very revenue driven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's why I always hate it. When I hire these people who tell me we've got to get out of that, we don't make money on that, we need to pull the plug on that we don't make. I'm like, no, you don't, I'm not going to give up any of my revenue here. Guys, you want me to get out of this because you don't make money on it. That pays for overhead still. Yeah, pull that out. Worse, you know how much more do we have to make everywhere else to make up for the quote loss of selling this that we don't make money on anyway? It's always been a pet peeve of mine, so you watch that, you watch those numbers like a hawk.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, do I ever. Yeah, yeah, always. And my wife is the same way. Like I mean, anything that hits the account she's investigated, yeah, 100. She'll text me hey, did you do this? I'm like, yeah, I mean, that was me, you know, but I mean like it's, there's never a second.
Speaker 1:I do think that's a mistake that a lot of small business owners make. Okay, that, coupled not knowing their numbers, which then impacts where they spend money and the things they spend money on, and then that, coupled with taking too much out too early, okay, it's like, well, you know, as you said, I had my corporate job. I made 200k a year or whatever. I gotta live on 200k. No, no, you need to learn to live on like nothing for a while, or 50k or whatever. Yeah, everything goes back in the business. Everything caught, everything, cotton, everything.
Speaker 1:When I started my company, I had a new 4Runner and I had a new Alfa Romeo. I say new within a year? Okay, 4runner and Alfa Romeo Gone. Okay, I bought myself a $300 Dodge Colt Nice, not a bad club. No, $200. I paid $200. I sold it two years later for $300. Yeah, I paid $200. I sold it two years later for $300. I made $100. Boom, and I'm a car guy. I hated that, sure, but you didn't have to sacrifice Exactly. I wanted every dollar I could direct into the business and not personal consumption, and I know you lived like that. Oh, totally, I still do in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you were lived like that. Oh, totally, I still do. In a lot of ways, yeah, you were always like that and you have to learn to navigate that personally, and then you also have to navigate your family.
Speaker 1:Hey, I remember when you had a 4,000-square-foot two-story house in a very affluent area and you moved out of that into your rental. Oh yeah, it was probably 1,500 square feet in a predominantly student-oriented area, right, yeah. And you didn't really do anything to the place either when you moved in. No, because you're like you know what I'm going to live? Freaking cheap, super cheap, dirt cheap, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that was you know what I'm going to live? Freaking cheap, Super cheap, Dirt cheap. Yeah, and that was you know. Some of those things are humbling. Of course they are, you know. Especially, I remember whenever I did that and then I had like some folks over from the team and there were people like, oh my gosh, our CEO lives in this dump, you know.
Speaker 1:It wasn't a dump, but I mean it, but wasn't what you lived in. No, before.
Speaker 2:No, but it was. But it was definitely a shocker, but, in all honesty, they were making more than I was at the time. Yeah, and I've lived like I mean, I've lived off of zero payroll for nine months at a time, right back in the day, when I didn't have anything in savings and I was putting things on but you didn't have a twin um bridal staircase.
Speaker 1:no, like that, that house you had before that. But you didn't have a twin bridal staircase. No, like that house you had before that. No, I didn't. I seem to remember the stairs came down on both sides and dumped, didn't they? Yeah, am I wrong about that? They were curved?
Speaker 2:No, they were. It would come down. On one side it had these landings, that would come down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it was definitely, it was impressive, it was grand. It was grand Like a two-story entry. Yeah, yeah, it was grand, but you don't need all that bullshit. No Right, you got to live cheap. You got to fuel this thing that makes you money.
Speaker 2:Everything goes back in, everything goes back towards sales and marketing. I did.
Speaker 1:It's reinvesting. I did the same thing I Second cheapest house in Natick, massachusetts, when I bought my house in 1988 there, yeah, okay, and believe me, it was so ugly, lime green, built 1870. The entire yard had a chain link fence around it and was paved with asphalt. It looked like an industrial compound. Okay, now the house I had before that in Texas, wasas, was completely redone. It wasn't fancy but it was totally redone. I was saying before that in memphis was a five bedroom, three and a half bath in germantown in a community that had a community pool and clubhouse, and I bought it from a doctor. Yeah, okay, I mean, I'm just saying it's, it's sacrifice and I lived there for eight years in that house. Even when I was making a lot of money, I was still living in that house.
Speaker 2:Because you were continuously reinvesting in the business. And I think that that's a you know, there are a lot of folks that want to be an entrepreneur, that have good jobs, you know, making good money. The risk is is that do you recognize what you're going to have to sacrifice? Because you are going to? If there's one thing that's true in owning a business, it's starting a business. It's absolute sacrifice.
Speaker 1:Sacrifice financially and time Totally.
Speaker 2:Everything Health, Whatever it takes man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, my health isn't enhanced by a half a pack of Lucky's and four cups of coffee and a Burger King Whopper at lunch, no man. But I can get in five minutes and drive while I'm eating it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I shouldn't admit that I do those things I still do. I was thinking the other day I'm damn near 67 years old and the average lifespan for a male in this country is 73. Oh wow, so that gives me like six more years to live. My 13 year old is only going to be a freshman in college when I keel over, but that's not what's going to happen, okay you got these genetics that you can last till hundreds I need to change, um, but yeah, so I think we could go on.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of mistakes founders make, but unfortunately we're running out of time. Okay, it's been good. Yeah, this is a good discussion today. It's a serious discussion. We want to help people. Yeah, we want them to learn from us. You don't have to learn everything on your own, that's true. Okay, that's true. Learn from other true.
Speaker 2:Learn from other people, learn from their mistakes, learn from their experience and don't think that these and look for the common threads that everybody says yeah, and there's a lot of the times where the things we talk about are the common threads that every entrepreneur and business owner would tell you, because it's. It doesn't matter how smart you are or how good you think your plan is, or your forecast and your pro formas and all these business planning tools that you have. You can have the best in the world, but as soon as you hit the streets with that puppy, you will absolutely sacrifice.
Speaker 1:It's essential. It really is. I'm so lucky that over the last 20 years being a professor working here at the U of A in the Walton College, and all the guest speakers that I bring in people like yourself and many others who have started and own businesses or work in family-owned businesses or bought businesses or sold businesses the experience that I have been able to capture from all those people, coupled with all the projects my students do, it's been a tremendous education for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and now you're passing this on. On this show I'm trying to.
Speaker 1:No, it's good though I'm trying to, I hope people take what we're saying seriously and realize that they can implement a lot of what we're talking about here To make their lives better, make their business more successful, improve the lives of their employees and their clients and customers.
Speaker 2:And then create change in the marketplace to keep us going.
Speaker 1:And create a lot of value they can cash in on someday that's right and develop other options for themselves in the way of time and business opportunities and ways to exercise creative expression. Yep, okay, that comes from having an exit. Yep, oh, absolutely, at some point where you get paid back for all that, yeah, and comes from having an exit Yep, oh, absolutely, at some point where you get paid back for all that, yeah, and it's risky as hell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's risky, but it's Not being negative, but it's the reality to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's I always say. But you know, I still don't think business ownership is as risky as working in corporate.
Speaker 2:America?
Speaker 1:No, I agree, at least you can see things coming, you can navigate it. Yeah, your head's on the chopping block any minute. It's like you're self-employed and you have one client or customer.
Speaker 2:Yep, and the idea that you're not vulnerable to that and you're not taking a risk is not truth.
Speaker 1:It's not. I mean, there used to be a cartoon of a fish in a blender. You know sitting there like, and you know at any moment the corporate boss can push the button. You know what I mean? That's right. Don't give yourself any illusions of your security. Somebody else?
Speaker 2:outside of your control. Can push that blender button, Yep, but you can keep swimming around in that blender. Yeah, we can feel like hey.
Speaker 1:I got a lot of room in here. Life's great, yeah, so anyway, well, listen, it's been great. Again, if you would like to reach out to us, get on our website, wwwbigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom. We do value your feedback and your questions. If you'd like to sponsor our show again, reach out to us on our website or to either Eric or myself as individuals and we can talk about how we can help you grow your business.
Speaker 2:Yep, if you have a business and you want to come on the show we want to hear from you.
Speaker 1:If you're a parasite, he's got a one-man company. No, we're not interested. I'm sorry. I mean, I get these things continuously. Okay, it's like no, we don't want that business. We want you where you've actually that's your number one marketing channel. Yeah, we want to where you've actually got your number one marketing channel. Yeah, we want to see you've actually done something, not like, hey, I've got a thing I'm going to sell, like a million other people sell, but I'm a one man band and I haven't really done it yet. No, no, we're not looking for that. Yeah, so we do have some good guests coming up here soon. Next week we're going to be talking with Gary Head, a signature bank. He's a real character. For those of you who don't know Gary, he's the bank founder.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Everybody knows Gary. Yeah, everybody's. The guy is hysterical, but he's also really smart. Yeah, no, he is, and he was actually the banker for Merle Haggard.
Speaker 2:Oh, are you serious yeah?
Speaker 1:That's cool. He was a crazy guy. But yeah, Merle Haggard liked Gary and did his banking with him.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's awesome. He didn't live around here.
Speaker 1:We need to talk about Merle Haggard next week then. But Gary knew all of them. He knew Don Tyson, he knew JB Hunt, he knew Sam Walton, all JB Hunt, the new Sam Walton, all of them Cool. So that's going to be fun, good show. So, anyway, until next week. This has been another episode of Big Talk About.
Speaker 2:Small Business. We switched that up.
Speaker 1:That was pretty tight, See you everybody.
Speaker 3:Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk about Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, wwwbigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business and be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes and ask questions about upcoming shows.