Big Talk About Small Business
Hosted by Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Our Mission is to inspire, empower, and equip entrepreneurs with the knowledge and insights they need to succeed in their ventures. Through engaging conversations with industry experts, seasoned entrepreneurs, and thought leaders, we aim to provide valuable strategies, actionable advice, and real-world experiences that will enable our listeners to navigate the challenges, seize the opportunities, and build thriving businesses.
Big Talk About Small Business
Ep. 70 - Brewing Success: A New Era of Beverages
Craft beer enthusiasts, entrepreneurs, and curious minds alike won't want to miss our lively chat with Dr. Jesse Core, the visionary behind Scarlet Letter Beverage Company. Jesse shares his incredible journey from a college passion for brewing to establishing Core Beer in 2009, amidst the challenges of the Great Recession. With anecdotes brimming with laughter and wisdom, Jesse unravels the highs and lows of his business ventures, including the rapid rise and near-collapse of his pub endeavors. This episode promises a glimpse into the resilience and creativity required to turn a side hobby into a flourishing enterprise.
In a spirited exploration of the beverage industry's dynamic landscape, Jesse guides us through the evolution of craft beer and the exciting innovations in hard seltzers and teas. Hear first-hand about the challenges small brewers face in a market dominated by giants, and the satisfaction derived from crafting unique, personal brews. We reflect on the peculiarities of the craft beer scene, from inconsistent service to quirky beer flavors, while emphasizing the importance of adaptability and the thrill of creating something truly new.
Finally, our discussion broadens to the symbiotic relationship between academia and practical business, underscoring the need for continuous learning and mentorship. Jesse, who also teaches at Walton College of Business, offers heartfelt insights into the joys of mentoring future entrepreneurs. With lighthearted banter about life and academia, this episode is a heartwarming testament to the rewards of fostering success in others and the shared desire to keep learning and growing in both personal and professional spheres. Listen in and join us for a blend of inspiration, humor, and invaluable business insights.
hey, everybody, we're back again in the studio. Today. It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Definitely it's a 2025. Now too, man, I know you believe that I'm ready. Jesus, I was born in 1958. Good grief, I know. I said to my wife the other day I've got like an average of five more years to live.
Speaker 3:Dang, I think you're going to make it. Mark, you think so.
Speaker 2:I think you're going to do it. I know the shovel off the ground before you bounce like that. I don't know about that Hanging with the freaking.
Speaker 1:I'm still eating a lot of french fries and smoking Lucky Strike, so my odds are not so good.
Speaker 2:No, no, you okay hold on it's, it's, it's not it's.
Speaker 1:Tell us what you did this morning, what your wife just called you about more my wife called me on the way here to tell me I used her towel this morning and said you're obviously very distracted, don't run into anybody. Quote, unquote, um, because I did have a little accident. You know last year what is your daughter's mini? Oh, we're on in your car.
Speaker 2:I totaled it, um, but other than that, when you said accident last year, I thought you were referring back to like a towel.
Speaker 1:No, that you needed a towel. What are we talking about? I thought you were talking about my 13-year-old Seriously, I'm just kidding which I'm way too old to have a 13-year-old. Let's face it. Oh yeah, because you only got five more years to live.
Speaker 2:I mean, god, I'm blessed. You want to be mentioned for your 18th birthday. Oh jeez, I know.
Speaker 1:Let's keep an eye on you two. Today, you guys are going to be laughing at me when I'm dead, which is funny, honestly, because I won't care so what?
Speaker 2:what could the podcast look like? Like, let's say, you died, you know. Like, let's say, it's wednesday and you die, and then we do our podcast big talk on thursday. You would want me to do the podcast? Oh, of course I would okay. Yeah, what would that episode need to be like, though? Do you want me to do the podcast? Oh, of course I would Okay. What would that episode need to be like, though? Do you want me to do anything special for you?
Speaker 1:No, there's no need to do anything special. A little cardboard cutout. I'd be self-conscious if you did that. It's an element I would say. I'd be like looking down, according to all those people who talk about dying. That would go into religion. No, religion, no, the near-death experiences are they lift up? Yeah, see the ring. Yeah, exactly, you say it's gonna be like big talk. I'll be like looking down here on you, eric. Maybe you'll have our guest today with you. Let's introduce him. Look, yeah, bring me back. We have dr jesse core with us today. Yeah, you know, recently got his ph. Congrats, man.
Speaker 3:Man, I appreciate it. Or DBA, dba, I got my DBA. I knew that. I apologize, that's all right. It's no big deal, I appreciate it. It's kind of weird being called that right now Doctor, yeah, doctor, doctor and doctor, doctor.
Speaker 1:We're going to come back to that, but before we do, this is another episode of Big Talk About Small.
Speaker 3:Business. It's awesome, well one. I'm really excited you guys didn't give me the cue that I was supposed to come in on that. I'll do better next time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do it at the end of the show too. I got that one.
Speaker 3:You can be with us then, jesse. First of all, thanks for having me. I've that one. You can be with us then, jesse, you know. First of all, thanks for having me. I've always wanted to be on this show. It's pretty, pretty cool to be here, so thank you guys, you got it, man.
Speaker 2:It is the biggest show about business on planet earth.
Speaker 1:I agree, the biggest show about small business. Oh yeah yeah, I guess we're legends in our own minds over here, but no, having Jesse is going to be good, cause he's a fun guy to hang out with, yeah, you know. Um, jesse, tell us a little bit about yourself. You're obviously in the in the beverage business. I can't just say beer business at this point. Right, what do you consider yourself Beverage?
Speaker 3:100% with uh, you know, with craft beer doing what crap beer is doing these days, which is going down. We transitioned to beverage several years ago, so it was a good move at that point. But, man, I'm keeping very, very busy and, like you, I'm happy as hell that 2024 is over. Good job, 2024 is good. Let's get going in 2025. So we got big plans coming up 2025.
Speaker 1:So tell us about yourself now. When did you start Core Brewing, or is it still called Core Brewing it?
Speaker 3:is. I mean, our DBA would be Scarletter Beverage Company, but you know the holding company is Core Brewing. I started that in 2009. And the way I started I loved brewing craft beer as far back as 1992. I grew up in Fort Smith, went to Fort Smith, northside, typical freshman at West Ark, I played baseball there and I had a microbiology class at 8 am in the morning and like most freshmen I was drinking beers and chasing girls. And my professor pulled me aside one day and said Jesse, if you just get your ass to class, I'll teach you how to make beer. And that was in 1992. And I'm like showing up to class, getting my work done and then just learned to love it. Then I moved from Fort Smith to Miami for a couple years. Denver three years, san Diego seven years. What were you doing in those places? Writing software, really.
Speaker 1:I did not know that. Yeah, I was a software dude Wow, software, really. I did not know that. Yeah, I was a software dude Wow, you have such a varied background.
Speaker 3:It was a cool time. You're a renaissance man. It was a cool time. So I, you know, back in the day we used faxes for resumes, right yeah, and I sent out 90 resumes and I got two offers One was Miami Beach, the other was Cleveland. Oh, that was hard, so yeah, what do you choose?
Speaker 1:I mean the mistake on the lake or Miami Vice right.
Speaker 3:What's he going to do? So I took my country ass down to Miami Beach right out of Fort Smith.
Speaker 2:Were you well-received as a country person from Fort Smith down in Miami Beach.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know about all that. You're not so much a country person. Let's get real, that's true. That's not so much a country person, let's get real All right, that's true, that's not so much country.
Speaker 3:More Fort's been north side yeah, that's true, not so much country. Hell, it was an eye-opening experience because I was able to get my car down there and I had $300 to my name and I'm like I'm rich. Yeah, you were. And pissing rain there we go with cussing already. It's just pissing rain in Miami and I pulled in front of my apartment complex and there was just one spot. I couldn't see anything. So I pulled in at this spot. God, this is a godsend. I got my spot go out to my car, turns out, I parked in a handicapped spot as soon as I landed in Miami, cost me $300.
Speaker 1:There you go Back to ground zero.
Speaker 3:So you know, I learned to love bologna yeah, bologna's a good, good product, uh, but anyway I scratched and clawed that, moved to denver for a few years in san diego, where I really started to learn about craft beer, and when I came back to arkansas I'm like there's just no good crap beer here.
Speaker 2:So you're a program writer, a program engineer, but but then you're in craft beer. So I mean, I guess from your class in college you continue to learn to make craft beer, loved it and then and you kept doing that miami on the side and went to denver, did that on the side and I mean, is that kind of what's exactly?
Speaker 3:so you know, I'm pulling around my little trailer behind me with my honda civic and I left my couch couch in Denver so I could bring my homebrew system.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, let's have the priorities straight.
Speaker 3:right, I mean my apartment in Denver or San Diego had pretty much like a futon and a homebrew system. That's what we had and I just learned to love it, you know. Then I got back to Arkansas. I was working at Tyson Great company. Tyson's a great company, people like working at Tyson.
Speaker 1:It has a very good reputation as a place to work.
Speaker 3:It is a good place to work, and I just had that entrepreneurial itch it's the only reason why I ever left. And I was on the city council of Springdale at that time and I got to know Rick Barrows, and Rick Barrows, the owner of Multicraft, a plus human being, yeah, multicraft construction company Right Big company, and Rick's an unbelievable guy. And so I said, hey, rick, I want to give this thing a shot, this homebrews thing. And so he goes, all right, go squat in one of my little complexes over there, which is where now where the brewery's at Yep. And then you know, that happened 2009. And then we just started going at that point. And then I got the itch. When I went to a liquor store, I put my product in the shell and I was stocking it. Somebody came up and bought my beer right in front of me and I'm like that's it, that's it. I, I'm Ed. Yeah, you're doing what you were born to do. That was it, that was it, yeah. And so that's how Core Beer started.
Speaker 2:So that's been a hell of a ride. So it's 2009,. So we're almost 15 years into this 16 years no 16.
Speaker 3:Now 16.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right Now, 16. So tell us what happened. How did you do it? Did you have to raise a bunch of money? Or yeah, you did it on a shoestring, or what did you do?
Speaker 3:Well, you know one, I started off. Yeah, we raised some money. It was during the Great Recession, right, yeah. So I remember going to a banker and I had this really kick-ass business plan and I slid it across him and he just goes, goes. I can't hit you, you know, and that's what it was like the whole time. I couldn't raise crap, yeah, for money. I just had to keep going bootstrapping and pull money out of my account, out of my bank, you know so, which my wife was just super excited about. Let's give up the eight hour days. You know the benefits, the 401k, and let's be entrepreneurs. Yeah, that was an easy sell, no, and uh, so um, and then, you know, then I, then I got, then I started.
Speaker 3:I went to one of my former employees at tyson and he was the first investor in the business and, uh, started raising a little bit of money and it's really capital intensive. It's so damn expensive, guys. And I get people come to me all the time with a great idea to start a brewery. Right, mike, come here, buddy, come here, come, sit down by me for a couple of minutes. We're going to have a conversation, you know, and when they really get bent out of shape is when I start talking about personal guarantees, right?
Speaker 1:They don't understand that I don't get it. My students, you know, whenever you start getting into legal forms of organization like, well, an LLC is a limited liability company and I'm like, OK, but what happens when you have to sign a personal guarantee, Forget that. It all goes out the window. That's it.
Speaker 3:OK, that's it. Yeah, I mean, there is no. And I tell my students the same thing. I'm like man. If you're in this like a cockpit and you got your one hand on the ejection ring, your business is not going to win, right, yeah, you better be all in, because it was so much more expensive than I thought and you don't even know what you don't know. So, yeah, no, no. So yeah, I raised a lot of money. We ended up raising about $10 million. Dang.
Speaker 1:Wow, good job man. So you went through a radical transformation of this business. You grew along right and you ended up with a whole bunch of pubs. I guess brew pubs Would you call them that.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I love telling this story. Thank you for breaking it down. How long do I have? Four hours on this?
Speaker 2:thing. Although Mark's got to get out of here on time to go get his motor home, now I've got to get it, take it in, got to take it in, I'll hustle up.
Speaker 3:I'll hustle up. Here we are. We had our first pub in Springdale. It was doing great. Then we opened it with Rogers, which is the core building, which I loved. It was Dusty Graham's building over there. Of course, I told everybody it was mine. Yeah, right, yes, my pub was there and it's the core building. It looked like the core building. So there you go, you're welcome.
Speaker 3:And so we had a pub there and the worst thing happened. Mark, it did great. Mm-hmm, it was doing amazing. It's the worst thing that could have happened to the business. It's sadistic to think it was a good business, oh yeah. And then the next thing, I'm sitting there with my biggest investor and we're sitting in one of our pubs and the banker from JP Morgan flies up to just tell me how smart I am. Jesse, you're a genius, you need to replicate this bud. And I'm like hell, yeah, I'm so smart, this is a surefire way. So we opened up yeah, you're so smart, and I'm one of my investors and we're like God, we're smart. And this we go like let's open eight more. Dad near killed us, almost bankrupt us. We got within 29 minutes of bankruptcy.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, and we're those eight, all here in northwest Arkansas, all over Arkansas.
Speaker 3:Okay, we had Little Rock, north Little Rock, our whole goal, you know. You put it on paper. A cool little business plan looks really smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You're spreading your brand recognition Right. You're driving your retail sales. Driving your retail sales Right. You're gaining brand equity, customer loyalty, Backfired in almost every single possible way. One you can't account for the amount of theft.
Speaker 1:That's what I tell everybody about that business. Internal theft is the biggest problem. If you're not there all the time in that business, people are robbing you. They are your employees, are giving the product away left and right.
Speaker 3:I assume that's the problem. I assume for every dollar beer we delivered we sold 60 cents why that's a lot of internal theft.
Speaker 3:I mean, I hate to say it- well, it's a pretty simple gig, you know. I mean you would, you would sell a pie to eric, eric would give you cash, take the cash, cancel the transaction, everything's good, and it was just it's just part of the norm. And I mean there was times when the pub and it was just it's just part of the norm, and I mean there was times when the pub, you know, they just wouldn't open. And I'd find out they just weren't open that day. So you're pissing off all your customers. And then so I remember in, um, we like driving around all those things all the time, all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was terrible. I was so unhappy, guys, we got away from what I really enjoyed, which is um relationships, of um manufacturing, the business side of it, and it was just really about just babysitting the whole time, sure, and then, um, I was just talking to my wife one day. I'm like I almost dropped an f-bomb there, so close, but almost did. I said I said f this. You know, this is terrible. I mean I'm so unhappy, you know we should close this business. I'm going back to my day job, you know, and my wife just goes close all the stupid pubs, just close them all. It was so hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a hard decision to make because you're and I remember reading this in the paper. You still have the one, though, at the airport.
Speaker 3:We do, and I'll tell you why we're successful there in a minute One. We're successful there because we don't run it that's right by Paradis and Paradis is really good. We're not. And so I went to my wife and you know that saying that JFK said about how every success has 100 fathers but every failure is an orphan. Oh, that was me, bud.
Speaker 3:Oh, when the pubs were going up, man, I had a lot of buddies, we were all geniuses. But, man, when that thing started getting out of hand, it's like, jesse, what did you do? You were so stupid, and so I just went to my board and I said we got to close these things. And you know, after a while we were able to close them and it was rough, man. But then, six months later, covid hits and we look like geniuses again. Oh, months later, covid hits and we look like geniuses again.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow, it was so fortuitous, good timing, it was such, you know, I like to say that is so lucky. I thank my wife for just telling me. You just got to do this, man, you're so unhappy. And as a result, guys, we went from just dying on a vine, unhappy, to retrenching, getting back to where we're good. I think Scratchy called back up to number one again. That's what it took. So what I tell our students, mark, is you know, don't be too cute. You know you have more time than you think you know and do not get over your skis. Be careful who you take money from. Amen to that. And I look back at it and I and um, well, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just gonna say a lot of people you mentioned your students. A lot of people don't know that jesse also teaches at the walton college. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, and uh is is uh, I mean, I think it's great when we have people like you have real experience out there doing this stuff. It's cool, you know, it's the students value that so much, no doubt and it's you know I.
Speaker 3:When when dr rich came to me and said, hey, man, you want to teach this class? I'm like I don't know. You know I didn't. It didn't sound that fun to me but man, after I taught the first one, I'm hooked.
Speaker 1:I love it it forces you to keep learning and refining your own business philosophy, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:100% and it also gives me restored kind of a renewed perspective, optimism. You know that the world is going in the right direction. It really is. These kids, these young future leaders, are bright. Yeah, they are and I'm really excited and there's so much fun. Yeah, from my business one, they know I make Scarlet Letter and they're like who knows Scarlet Letter? Yeah, we do Scarlet Letter Right. But they're so engaged and they give me such great feedback I learn as much from them as they do from me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I felt the same way, for sure, but you've got an amazing reputation.
Speaker 2:Well, amazing reputation. We use this book a lot of times in my class. Well, that's nice, jesse, you don't have to do that. You start using this podcast so I can get a little bit of benefit out of it, out of your celebrity status. I'm over here, I'm trying to make some, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these are passing out the podcast look, no, truthfully, eric's the most successful one of the bunch, no, but, but anyway he's been great to work with, but I'm always trying to get that money. It's a lot of fun, but. But going back, though, to your business, so you close the pubs down. Six months later, covid hits, you're making beer. Okay, when did you morph this business into what it is today, which is making these other products?
Speaker 3:Yes, so by one. How did that deal with all the theft and stuff in pubs? We're actually focused on things that actually make money, right, and White Claw was becoming a thing, right. Mm-hmm, that actually make money right. And, uh, white claw was becoming a thing right. And I remember drinking white claw and go, wow, that sucks to, not what to do this. I did not leave a career to make this crap, but my brewers were like try this, is it like zima or something? See back back in our day. We're drinking zima, right? Yeah, I mean, I never had white claw. That's z Zima. I think Zima tastes better than white claw. Truthfully, yeah, remember that song.
Speaker 2:I just can't believe you dropped the Zima note, that's like. One time I asked Mark, I was like what kind of music are you listening to? Well, I like Waterfalls by TLC. I'm like what the hell did you just say Like how the hell?
Speaker 1:I mean it's a Zima, zima and T like how the hell? I mean, it's a lab thing, yeah, but no, and it was like such a great. It's a case study in itself of a product that just like went insane and then just completely died, like overnight.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, and so it's. Yeah, it's a white claw where I'm to my brewers like, try this. I'm like sucks, sucks, right. And after eight months we we delivered something. I'm trying. I'm like, whoa, that's pretty good. So I'm like, let's do this, let's give it a real shot. We put it out in the market, did some tastings, got people to try it, and the response was great. And then, a year later, it's 95 of our business. Wow, all right. So what do you call that? That's a. That was hard seltzer, a hard seltzer. And so this year we're releasing hard tea and that's going into all this. I like that and, oh man, I'm going to like that. Oh, you're so. And what's cool, what's fun is, I think, the one thing we're good at. We suck at pubs. Clearly, right, obviously, matt, obviously you're terrible, and so. But we were really good at making stuff. Yeah, and this hard tea, sam's Club did a blind taste testing with all the national brands and ours won hands down. Wow, that's fantastic, it's really good, that's great. And so we're releasing that next year.
Speaker 1:So do we make the John Daly's out of this, or what do we do with it?
Speaker 3:You can manage it with something else. Well, you can put in your beer helmet, mark, and just go with it. Beer helmet on a Janus Guzzle, that stuff, a tennis guzzle and stuff, just go.
Speaker 1:In his motorhome. So Scarlet Letter though 95% of the business. What was so fun?
Speaker 3:about this, guys, was you still make beer, though. We do, we do, and this is what's so fun about this. I'm going to definitely write in a book about this whole experience. It's going to be called 29 Minutes. Yeah, and-. Love it so catchy. I minutes. Love it so catchy, it'll be funny. There'll be some funny stuff in it. I promise you You're a funny guy. My daughter says I'm the funniest guy, andy, and I definitely think we're the funniest people on the planet. My daughter after a time is like God, you're stupid and embarrassing.
Speaker 1:I always think that about us there's nothing we can do about that.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter how cool you really are, like we are. Yeah, our daughter is still here. When they get older, though, they'll realize how freaking cool we are.
Speaker 1:They'll be like you know what? You were really cool, Dad, your kids will say that We'll see.
Speaker 3:I'll keep you guys posted on that one, we'll see. Now I'm really lucky. My kids are amazing. Where were we? I forgot my question. This is what happens when I'm getting older.
Speaker 1:We're talking about Scarlet Letter. 95% of the business. You still make beer.
Speaker 3:Yes. So the beer thing, thank you God. All right. So the beer thing is I went to make craft beer because I loved making beer. Yeah, I didn't want to make the same crap that everything was out. This is the evolution.
Speaker 3:Eric comes to you with a homebrew and you're like, oh, it's delicious, it's amazing, this is so much better. You're going to be a bazillionaire. And then, all of a sudden, he invests. He starts with a one barrel system, a tiny system. Everybody's like it's the greatest thing ever.
Speaker 3:And then this is where it happens. He starts buying equipment and bigger equipment. All of a sudden, this stuff's not quite so sexy. And then what? He's okay, I'll just make a light beer, and that's how. And then, and then, next thing, you know he's on a fast track to nothingness.
Speaker 3:And so, bud, light, miller, light, coors, light, natty light. I have brands that are never going to go away. People just drink it and they're not going to drink the craft stuff. Sorry, that's just what I've learned, sure? So it's a part of me making scarlet letter and and going into beverages. I can now make beer that I like, right. I don't have to make the stuff that just sells, that just pays bills, right. And the ironic thing is that it doesn't pay the bills. Nobody's going to buy your lager when they've been drinking bud for 30 years. Yeah, that's a hard truth.
Speaker 3:When I'm talking to little johnny over here about his new brewery, sure I'm like. Sure your hop, that you got some experimental hop you picked up new zealand, you know, you know, stolen from a great wife's mouth. There's something and you know it's great, but you can't buy it. It doesn't scale, you can't replicate it. You can't replicate it, sure, so it makes total sense. Oh, that's, that's where we started getting better. Got to stick green dot. As we started getting better, we started getting back to what we're good at Relationships and product and driving your cogs down and doing those kinds of things. And that's where we started winning again.
Speaker 1:Like if I went to your brewery once and I was watching those cans going through those conveyors and filling up and everything, it's like I would just be hypnotized by that. Do you ever just walk out there on the floor and then just like go into, like some kind of a weird meditative hyper focus of watching all this stuff on being out your product? I'm like scrooge mcduck of the canning line.
Speaker 3:I'm like I would dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar. My floors are like a pool of cans all day long. This is so boring. I'm like dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar. That's the rest of us. So I just love it. And my chairman of the board will fly in and do the same thing. The guy runs a big company. He'll fly down here just to pull cans. I know it feels good. Yeah, it is the american dream baking stuff. It is selling it. His entrepreneurship it is.
Speaker 1:It is indeed. That's fantastic. I love being down there. Now I want to ask you, though, one question that I've always wondered sure, why do all these independent brew pubs sell skunky beer that's served too hot? What the hell is that about? Because the old guys like me go in there and we're, like you guys, got Bud Light in the cold, right. Okay, to your point earlier.
Speaker 2:I mean 30 years of drinking Bud Light.
Speaker 1:It's 50 in my case. Okay, I mean. So why do they all seem to follow this formula? Okay of that, let's bring your dog, let's sit around. Yeah, our employees are slackers. Maybe they'll give you good service this time. Maybe they'll ignore you for 20 minutes the next time. And, by the way, we'll serve you any matter of variety of oddly named strange tasting beers with shit in them that should ever be in beer, okay, and we'll serve it warm and maybe not carbonated like it should be. You don't have to answer what? No, no, this I mean. I just wonder, why do they keep doing that and then thinking this is gonna be a great?
Speaker 3:success? It wasn't. The problem is marcus was a success for now. Now you look at the data and everybody's dying on a vine because, guess what, nobody wants to drink a 400 calorie beer. That tastes like shit. Yeah, exactly, you know. I remember a phase where I I went up to colorado and I'm like I've got a 10 ounce pour of this barrel aged stuff. That's like molasses, I mean. It's like give me diabetes after one glass of it. You know, and I'm thinking to myself and I told my wife I'm like this is the beginning of the end of craft brewing right here. If I have to pay $14 for a 10 ounce glass of this stuff, that's really not even good. You know that. That's and that's why seltzer started becoming so popular. You could drink eight of them, not get diabetes, and you know it tastes good.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, it seems to well. The whole thing is is um it just. It always comes down to differentiation of your product and having something that other people aren't doing, which is what leads to great success. So how do you account, like for your Scarlet Letter, for example? Where do you see that fitting in the market that you serve? What makes it so different? What makes it successful?
Speaker 3:That's what keeps me up at night every because there's always going to be competition and if you're doing something well, it's a matter of time for somebody to start copying. Sure, so that's what we do. Well. One. I learned also that you don't have to be the first to do it. That's usually really expensive and hard to do. For example, when I came from California and, by the way, my kids are eighth generation Arkansans, I'm not a Californian, for the record I got so much shit. When I came back, I'm like I'm Arkansan, I just lived in California.
Speaker 1:I know I moved here via Boston, but I'm from Missouri, okay. So it's like, yeah, that's the worst, yeah, so anyway, I'm a native Missourian myself. I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2:I just thought you were from Boston this whole time. He's from the Lou. No, I swear to you, he's from the Lou.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am. It's not that much different from Fort Smith Outside St Louis, okay.
Speaker 2:I had no idea, honestly, all this time, that you were from here.
Speaker 3:No, I swear to you Sorry. Anyway, I came here and I bought a canning line for the business. I couldn't sell a drop of beer in cans and that's why some of my students I thought it was a no-brainer being from California, Nobody drank out of bottles anymore. So to me being the first, not necessarily the greatest idea, the first independent, independent brewer, put your beer in cans.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or just being so far out ahead of.
Speaker 3:I found that I was too far out ahead of the market. Okay, you know I was too early, I was running down the hill a little too fast, yeah, so I slowed down. And so for me, I feel like where Scarlet Letter does a good job, positioning is we're pretty good on trends and we're able because we're small, we're able to pivot quickly. We're pretty nimble and we can attack trends pretty quick, so like your flavors being a trend.
Speaker 1:is that what you were talking about, or?
Speaker 3:it's like hard tea is has five more years of runway and we're way ahead of any other Arkansas brewery on that. Yeah, Cause we've been developing it for a year.
Speaker 1:I love the idea of hard tea. I really do, it's great.
Speaker 3:And you know the I don't want to. If there's any competitors out there listening, don't listen to this, right. You know is we have a light hard tea that's going to be released in 2026. Awesome. And then we have another beverage that we're already planning for 2027.
Speaker 1:Sure, you know. So we want to make sure we're staying right, because hard tea or a seltzer is flatten like well that's. Yeah, that's got a very oaky overtones, with a little bit of nuttiness to the aftertaste, and oak cask, oh yeah, and all that bullshit. Okay, and they were trying to do the same thing with beer. Did you notice that I was?
Speaker 3:awful, I hate. I call them the neck beards. You know, the neck beards, no fish was like right here and they got, you know, their harpooner whaler hat on like they're about to go. You know harpoon moby dick out there in the same uniform and they had, like this pretension to the whole thing, that really turned me off.
Speaker 1:Well, it really started pissing me off in my pubs. Is I had like this pretension to the whole thing, that really turned me off.
Speaker 3:Well, it really started pissing me off in my pubs is I had to go kiss their asses the whole time. You know, I'm like oh, hey, you know, what do you think about this? Because I don't want a bad review on and this rating site. Oh, you know, and so you know I give them this, this product I work really hard on. I have to sit there, pretend like I care what they think, you know, and it's usually when you said oh, it's, it's a good fruity. No, tangerine, yeah, exactly yeah. And I'm like like there's no tangerines, I'll let start career for this crap.
Speaker 3:And then what happens is you tell eric, then eric's got his neck beard, he's rocking out there, he's got his beanie on at 97 degree weather.
Speaker 1:We should have had Jesse on soon, I think, doug.
Speaker 3:That's right, Our kind of spirits bark Beanie on in 97 degree weather. You got the uniform on and as soon as I Eric, listen you're going to start paying for your beer. Now they're gone, they're moving on the next pub and your ratings go down on the side like that, it's just, I'm done with the game. So I got to a point where I just told them all hey, you know, kiss my ass, If you don't like my stuff, go away. And so I started focusing on bigger, you know, relationships with bigger accounts, more scale and just making really good stuff.
Speaker 1:We're in the right place to do that here in northwest Arkansas, right, gosh? I mean, you couldn't be in a better location to create, have a distribution of your product, right?
Speaker 3:What a you know there's so many reasons why this is one of them. I mean, I've lived in San Diego, miami Beach, boulder, right. This is the best place in the country. It really is.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can't say I lived in all those, which are all great places, but I lived in Boston. I lived in Memphis. Everybody's like Memphis sucks. Actually I thought Memphis was great.
Speaker 3:Okay, dfw area. I'm a Cowboys fan. We're going to talk and we've got a therapy session coming up. I'm a Cowboys fan.
Speaker 1:But I'm with you on it. I mean Northwest Arkansas. I always say we're not the best at any one thing, but the overall package comes together here. It's a really great quality of life, no doubt.
Speaker 3:I love raising my family here. Yeah, I love it. And you get enough, you know I mean the cost of living. Still, well, I'm glad I bought my house a long time ago, I can tell you that. But I love it here. I love Northwest Arkansas, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're such an interesting guy. He's done so many different things in your life. You recently went back and got the DBA. What motivated you to do that?
Speaker 3:Tell us about that man, I love pain. I'm kidding about that. It's something that after I started man, I love pain. Yeah, I'm a glutton, I'm kidding about it. It was. It's something that when, after I started teaching, you know, I started learning One.
Speaker 3:Getting this past my board of directors was hard because they're like what the hell? You're the CEO of this company, you don't have time for this. But I saw the value in the academic research out there that PhDs were doing and all this amazing information that were not really accessible or even digestible for people like me, a practitioner, and I thought, man, what an amazing amount of information. And so I wanted to learn. I want to be the best CEO I can be and I also want to be the best mentor I can be, and I think about myself more as a mentor than professor and I wanted to give this a shot. And so it came down to OSU or University of Missouri, st Louis, and I chose University of Missouri, st Louis because of the academic settings I've been in. They don't really value. Oh, of course, practitioner, I know it's a little bizarre to me.
Speaker 1:I think the Walton College has done a good job. I mean, I feel like they've treated me with respect, but there is still a fundamental difference. When you have things like email groups that are for you know, tenure track versus non-tenure track, that's a big deal. You know, tenure track means you got the terminal degree and you're not necessarily.
Speaker 3:I thought you know, for me you know, and I don't want to interrupt you there but tenure track is and one. I felt like that kind of bias happened both ways. I have my board of directors that I have C-suite officers on my board and they're like I don't care what a tenure professor says, those guys just work four hours a day. Right, you know, that's what they think. And then I have the tenure professors over there thinking, well, how many publications do you have? Well, you're not in our group either. You got nothing. You got nothing.
Speaker 1:You got nothing Right. So what you could have? Like 300 articles published in the business journal, but that doesn't mean anything because they're not academic journals.
Speaker 3:Yeah, not to me.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:But it could be a C-suite office for a company that's doing $400 million a year and be like how many publications, if not how many publications.
Speaker 1:Exactly Go ahead. Well, no. So you decided you were going to go through this.
Speaker 3:And because this particular program this is why I'm an advocate for the executive DBA program is because it bridges the gap. They focus on practitioner scholars, people that have run businesses, who have the scars, the blood, and they teach them how to do that academic research, to speak that language. To me, I felt like it was a one plus one equals five, and it was some of the best money I spent. How long did it take you?
Speaker 1:to do this Three and a half years, well, and so how often did you have to go to St Louis?
Speaker 3:Once a month, Okay, and it was hard. You know you dedicate 20 hours a week to this program. Wow, and it's a lot. It's a lot and I'm already working 100 hours a week Running a business and family and teaching at the Walden College.
Speaker 2:It was hard, so what real value do you see that you got from it all One? I'm a far better leader. Why, though I mean why did that help you become a better?
Speaker 3:the information that you learn in this, the, the, the research, um, my ability to um digest uh, this one. The thing I tell you, eric, is academic research has put a lot of good uh publications out there. How many of them have you read? Zero, yeah, see, that's a problem.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of good research out there, and what it also helped me is be able to um uh to be able to be a better professor for these students as well, and also I wanted to go into the professional field. Before I get on that, I want to talk a little bit about, uh, what my research was. It was really cool. I worked with Harps Foods and with Harps Foods I was able to stop company yeah, no doubt, and Harps is a great local business and Harps went and met with J Max Van Hooster, ceo, and with Harps I was able to do an experiment with them and measure shelf space and, because of my relationships with J Max and Harps, I was able to get in there and do a physical experiment that measured the shelf space changes from if you swap out a large brand with a small brand, what would happen. The data was fascinating. It showed that if you swap out a large brand with a small brand, facing sales of the total modular went up.
Speaker 3:I couldn't have done that if I were just in academics Interesting yeah, so, but I learned how to conduct that. If I were just in academics Interesting yeah, so, but I learned how to conduct that experiment through this program as well. Wow, yeah, that's very cool. It was good. I'm very happy that I did it. I'm very happy. I didn't do a great job of explaining it but I am very happy that I did it.
Speaker 1:No, you did a great job explaining it, jesse. You know I mean you talk about. There's useful research out there that those of us on the practitioner side don't have access to or unaware of. You know, I think part of the problem with academia and I just had breakfast this morning with one of my friends who was a former professor here and now he's moved to a different school and his thrust has always been that we risk our academic existence if we don't do more practical research than what is done. That's I think that for a lot of people, um, they're very skeptical of anything that they would see in an academic journal, good or bad. And then, you know, when I see even our own college or university promoting some of the research that's been done, I think it really hurts our credibility out there in the marketplace with practitioners.
Speaker 1:For example, what happens to the performance of teams when you give them misinformation? Is that a worthwhile topic? What do we think is going to happen? Performance goes to shit, okay. Or another study that was published people who don't go to the office don't get sick as often as those who do. Now can you believe that? Yeah, because you've isolated yourself, okay, weird. Or those whose urine is darker in color are less hydrated yeah no than those who have light. These are all studies that I have seen put out by our university. Okay, and there are, for what it's worth. There is a group of people I know in northwest arkansas non-academics, who run businesses, who jump on every bit of PR about absurd research done and share it amongst themselves and say this is what the hell's wrong with higher education today.
Speaker 3:Man, I completely agree with that and that's why I think it is so important again, kind of going back to you know, mark, it's people like us and Eric that we are the ones that need to be more involved in higher education, because I truly believe education is really the solution to a lot of our problems. But I, for the life of me, don't understand and they've tried to explain it to me, but I think maybe I'm just dumb Is the rigor versus relevance argument For me. I just don't understand why you would do anything that's not relevant. And they explain it, they explain it, explain it. And I still struggle with that. I don't really want to do anything that lacks relevance. And there's been. I've had to read a lot of that, you know, and through the DVO program there's one class in particular that I read, that I went through and I read a lot of shit. It was completely useless, you know. But there were some other classes, particularly my corporate strategy, that was unbelievable, that absolutely helped me become a better executive and think at a higher level.
Speaker 2:So you know, I mean I'm a. It's funny this conversation, because I do think about it quite a bit. My dad was a professor. Yeah, chair of psychology.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I grew up in this. It's, you know, academia. I know, yes, I'd rather have it as an academia, but, you know, as a practitioner, like the reality is is, I probably would put a bet on how much I'm constantly self-learning, like continuously. I don't watch a lot of TV, I don't do a lot of other things that are passive. I'm constantly reading, listening to audio books, listening to YouTube, seeking, seeking, seeking constant industry information. You are, I know that about you. Yeah, I mean I have to right, right, but what dumbfounds me is whenever I'm talking about that information you are, I know that about you. Yeah, I mean I have to right, right, you know, and. But what dumb founds me is whenever I'm talking about that and I hear somebody from the walton college of business say, oh, have you looked into our research program? We got a lot of studies, research that we've done for the last, you know, decades that can be helpful for you, and I'm like give me.
Speaker 1:And they're like, yeah, I'll connect you with somebody, the journal of academy of management science or whatever right absolute most inconvenient.
Speaker 2:Yeah, completely like we could do it like a complete mystery as to how I get my damn hands on any of that research.
Speaker 1:We could do a much better job, boiling it down and distributing that through the sort of widespread business media, no doubt, than we do. Well, I, I, there's no doubt. I don't even know where to go Right After.
Speaker 2:after a decade of working and being an entrepreneur in this area and I have worked a lot of, I've taken a lot of initiatives on my end to get to know the college and the university yeah, these types of things, no, it's a very good point and I and I and I push out that energy but I get nothing back in return, not like zero, like I get a little bit, but then it's like no more, it's crickets that's why I felt like the executive db was good for me, because I want to be able to speak that language, because Google Scholar has a lot of good stuff out there.
Speaker 3:Sure, there's a lot of crap too, but it's also really hard to read those things as well. I mean, they're hard to digest a lot of those journal articles. So how do I produce research? How do I do things that are really practical, that you guys can use?
Speaker 2:That's why I chose. So I have a little bit of an answer and it's a little bit of a pitch, but it's genuine. What we're doing right now is exactly what academia is need to do. We need more video talk shows on discussing the research and putting them in areas that I, as a practitioner, can discover and listen to the distribution channel. Yes, I'm going to do a professor podcast areas that I, as a practitioner, can discover and listen to the distribution channel. Yeah, like, I'm gonna do a professor podcast, you know, like to where. Like that's a great idea. But I mean like, okay, so I've said that, mentioned it, but I can get no activity on this stuff. It just frustrates me to no end. But I mean we could totally set up this entire network. It's a great idea.
Speaker 3:Let's talk about it, because that is I mean. My brother, Andy, recently completed his PhD in psychology, Did he really? Yeah, and and we both talk about the same things are like it's, it's really, it's it's. You can't digest this information, and so we were actually considering doing some sort of podcast. Like you know, a, a, a digestible form of information from research that can actually be used.
Speaker 2:So we'll like that you know what we need to have you and I know Andy really well, your brother, yeah, have you all guys back on the show. I've been wanting to do this. Mark hates it when I bring up the emotional side of business ownership, he always cuts me off. Won't let me go down into it, but I want like to me it's how I'm.
Speaker 3:That's what he did to me last time.
Speaker 2:Well, he said it was like we're huggies and things like that, but it's not like the emotional. Anyway, I would love to have you guys on this talk about the the the emotional intelligence part about entrepreneurship and being a business owner, because the reality for me is is book smarts. But what you had to go through on when you had to shut down your, your stores you talked about earlier hard decision. It wasn't hard because of the math, because of the business model. You knew you're losing your ass. You knew these things were happening reasonably right. It was the emotional decision that you struggled and warred with within yourself to where your wife finally, you know, pushed you over the edge and that you made an emotional decision that probably was costing you a fortune for months that you should have made months before. That's the hard stuff for entrepreneurs who wants to lose.
Speaker 3:I don't, and that's my mindset.
Speaker 1:Who wants to give up any revenue? Yeah, I never want to give up any revenue, or your reputation.
Speaker 3:Or your reputation. Reputation was a big thing.
Speaker 1:It was like holy cow, is Jesse going down? Yeah Right, Stay away from Jesse. I remember whistling. That's an article.
Speaker 3:Really, no doubt, no doubt. And I remember feeling gravity the couple of days that I got out of bed and just tried to get both feet on the floor. Absolutely, you know, and but I just, you know, I put on. Damn, it feels good to be a gangster by the boys. Yeah, you do, put in my car and just go, you go, you go. That's what you got to do, though, man.
Speaker 2:You got to self-motivate yourself out of these dark holes, because that's all that entrepreneurship really has, because nobody's sitting around with a bunch of money saying good job Jesse, good job Mark, no.
Speaker 1:So proud of you.
Speaker 2:You keep the economy going. You keep losing your butt and having people steal from you and having your reputation potentially threatened, but you keep doing it for the good sake of mankind in the economy in the United States of America they don't no one's there to do that, so no, that's true, he's going to change the topic.
Speaker 1:No, I want to come back to this though. So, jesse, so you've got this DBA now and you're teaching here at the U of A, you're also still running this company that, I assume, is continuing to grow right. What direction are you going to just keep pursuing both of these paths simultaneously?
Speaker 3:Is that the plan, or I want to have options you know, I think you know, for me I'm happy with where I'm at. You know I considered, you know I had some some faculty opportunities non-tenure track. I don't think that's my path because I don't have time to sit there and focus on the research and the thing I really enjoy is I love the student interaction.
Speaker 1:So I've received a couple offers for faculty positions to be a teaching professor, but the problem with that in our field is so you get these offers to be a teaching professor and then you have this tenure track over here with this 26-year-old. You get fired. This 26-year-old who has no work experience at all, oh yeah, okay, but has a PhDd, all right, and they're going to make x dollars. And you're going to make x minus y dollars in spite of your history of being able to actually start and grow a business to a significant enterprise. How do you rationalize that?
Speaker 3:I don't, and that's why I'm not a faculty member. I mean that's such a big problem. It seems to me. It's a massive opportunity for academia to quit, you know, to look at the opportunity to bring Mark on as a research professional. It makes so much sense. One like my, my my thing with Harps Foods was there's not a lot of tenure track people that can convince the CEO of a major company. I can do that because I'm a practitioner and I have you got credibility with that credibility. If there's some person 26-year-old off the street he's going to be like how'd you get my number? Yeah, yeah, right. And so I think that's an opportunity for both of us. But I'll be worm bait before that ever becomes an amazement.
Speaker 1:It's so hard to change, isn't it? The momentum over there, the inertia.
Speaker 3:And just the price of education these days is so stupid.
Speaker 2:Well, we've got to remember, I mean education, you know, it's like the ad industry, right. It's hundreds of years old, right, it's been developing way before and it's got its own system, its own rules, its own economy, you know. And so I mean what we're facing is, you know, and before the internets, getting this type of information was extremely difficult, yeah, it's true, like not available. But now that folks can get their own research, now you've got AI, right, I mean, you've got a lot of things that are happening that are causing these two worlds to try to come together, but there's still that traditional tension that's sitting out there, that that that mavericks like yourself, jesse, have to bust through. So best of luck to you, sir, on that I, I well, I mean I first of all.
Speaker 3:I love what I do, I love being an entrepreneur absolutely and, um, it's tough man, because what I have learned in just dealing with academia and just even through the doctoral program, for all it's good, all the good things it's taught me, there's still a sense of that they don't really want me in their club. Yeah, they don't want me in their club. I know, I believe it and that's sad to me. It is, and I think it's a hell of an opportunity if we just get past these kind of silly threatened feelings. And I remember, sitting in one class, one of the professors asked me what I thought about stay at home. Um, you know, employees staying at home, what do you think? You know it's a trap, guys, they don't know. And when I started talking about, well, hey, you know, as a business owner, I think you know I have seen productivity go down and, man, I got attacked. You know.
Speaker 1:well, we don't want to just keep beating on this, on this horse MBA. I used every single thing I learned in school, whether it was from a practitioner or a research professor or a TA teaching some discipline class. I mean, I guess that's the. That's the other side of it. Like, I used every single aspect of my education and I think sometimes entrepreneurs maybe don't value some of the at some of the stuff that you get from a formal degree. It's important.
Speaker 3:I and I, you know, oh, yeah, for sure, I'm encouraging some of my employees, I'm helping a few of them go back and get their degrees, you know, and business. I think there's a great benefit for formal education, you know, and yeah, as flawed as it is.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm not saying it's perfect in in in any way, but I but I do think we still provide people with a lot of good and can really open a lot of eyes. If you think about all the classes somebody takes and all the different disciplines and all the people they interact with no doubt along the way. I mean that's a valuable experience that.
Speaker 3:A broad depth of knowledge is very. Yes, being able to speak the language is important, yes, so yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:Not everybody's as motivated as Eric over here. He just is like on this constant quest to learn.
Speaker 2:Then you are Well, I mean, I was actually thinking about the other day. I was like I mean, I was actually thinking about the other day. I was like, you know, because my girls are all graduating, going to college soon, so there's a lot of this thought process, but it's just like it's not about the degree, it's not about a lot of the stuff that it's made out to be, it's about the person. That's like, if you're wanting to learn, that's where. That's why the colleges exist, that's why the postgraduate programs exist, for the folks that are wanting to be masters and to continue to improve things. And I mean that's. You know, when I look at that system, it's just like it's amazing that we built that like over the years, right, I mean it's, you know, it's very fortunate that we have folks that are studying yeah, they're constantly studying, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So I got one more question for youesse, sure, um? So eric and I both have had, like, different kinds of businesses along the way. You know, you had the magazine business, the marketing consulting, the software, now the podcast video studios and other things. You know, you, you've, you've had your, your beer business that you're morphing into a beverage business. You had pubs along the way, which is a different business. Now you got your dba. Okay, how do you think, um, is this a response to staving off the boredom that one would have if they just stayed in the same thing forever? What is that that makes you want to do these, these other things that you want to do?
Speaker 3:because you know, let's face it, they do take time away from your primary business, obviously it's a great question and I not to get, you know, super, super huggy with Eric here and all emotional about it but I mean I'm in, I'm in for it, I'm in you ready. Well, hold tight, we'll get that in a second. But I think in large part, you know you grow up, you know I mean I was broke growing up. You know, and you know I remember my mom would get paid every second Thursday and I knew I mean we got some good groceries that day. It was rough. So a lot of what I'm trying to learn is because my fear is I always continue to have to improve, because I was always forever afraid that trap door was going to be pulled out. No matter how successful you get, there's that trap door Right.
Speaker 1:That paranoia, that fear, that fear that keeps all of us in, doesn't it? Oh yeah, what fear Like that?
Speaker 3:I mean, it's a motivator, for sure, but I totally understand what you're saying it's you know Java's going to hit the butt and you're down with the rank court. Right, I'm with you. That was a lot of what was leading me up to, but at this point I'm also just kind of learning to relax a little bit more. I love learning and I wish I could have told myself earlier going hey, man, jesse, chill, it's going to be all right, you're going to be okay. I did not enjoy the journey enough. I can tell you that right now. I did not. I did not. I'm so results-oriented all the time and I fight myself with that all the time, and that's my, that's one of the things I want to do with the back, the back nine of my lives, you know, I think my both my parents died at 59, so I got eight more years. So I'll be right behind you, mark dude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you better live right. Just be me on this damn podcast.
Speaker 2:No, just be eric, okay harris are both still alive because I'm living till I'm like 80 minutes at least eight times.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, well that's a good run. So for me, you know, what keeps me going is, man, I want to fall into my grave. You know, I want to give it everything I have and just be like I'm going to fall into my grave.
Speaker 1:I never had a desire to just stop working. And just what do we do?
Speaker 2:Just think about where we're going out to eat that night. I, I don't know at 4 30. I mean, it was the best quote in the world from sam elliott on roadhouse, the original roadhouse. I'll get enough sleep when I'm dead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there you go yeah, you know, I just yeah I do wish patrick swayze found out what it was like too young no doubt he was. He was here in the original roadhouse.
Speaker 2:I know, man, trust me, man, I'm ripping throats out dude, you know, sorry, I just did that to him. So what about?
Speaker 3:you, mark? I mean, what keeps you going? I mean, as you say, you've got five more years left. I think you're going to do better Cigarettes, so what keeps me going?
Speaker 1:Yeah, two ex-wives, five kids, um, it's a. It's a hungry machine. I mean, my god, hungry machine. That's a hungry 13 year old in private school, two college tuitions, four of them in invisalign at once. I mean, come on like a lot of ladies, okay, or it's because you don't have a son, do you? No, I don't how many daughters I got a grandson, five, a total. Five daughters, yeah, four, four original ones and one stepdaughter. It's like a daughter. I mean, you're just shelling out though, bro. Yeah, I am, but now it's, I don't know, I think it's, I think it's, I do think it's.
Speaker 1:You know, it gets boring to just do the same thing. I mean it's sort of like my cars and motorcycle thing and my house thing. You know, I've done more houses in Fayetteville than anybody else and everybody thinks, oh, they associate me with this craftsman style. Okay, I'm out of that, I'm bored with it, I'm not into it, I'm not doing it. I'm in mid-century modern now, cars, I never got locked into one thing. I like hot rods, I like Porsches, I like old cars, I like new cars, motorcycles, I never got stuck on one brand.
Speaker 1:Okay, I just think it's, it's, it's your nature either to, um, just be super hyper focused on one thing, or be like the three of us are, which is we're constantly, you know, going out on these other exploratory missions, yeah, and down these other paths. It's just it. It's not necessarily the way to make the most money, though, but I think it is the way to be the most um fulfilled and keep your brain alive. No doubt you know, you know, no doubt. I just think everybody faces I don't know what.
Speaker 1:Everybody's got different numbers in mind of how much you got to make or have, or whatever, but, you know, not everybody's motivated by the same thing, and I think the people I seem to have the most respect for are the ones who don't just do what they do to just make more and more and more money, but are trying to branch out and do new stuff. Yeah, yeah, it just seems like a better path for personal fulfillment, doesn't it? Oh yeah, you know, but it's not necessarily the most lucrative. I mean, you look at the people who make the most amount of money. It's like they started I built hotels, and I'm 22 and I'm 82 and I'm still building hotels. Okay.
Speaker 3:That's the way, you know. Doesn't wake me up in the morning, though, man. It doesn't I, you know, I'm too entrepreneurial for that. I want to keep going and trying new things. Um, that's, that's just my DNA. I get you. I think we're all like that for better, for worse.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I would say that now, you know, um, I'm probably starting to slow down a little bit on that and try to smell the roses a little bit more, but, uh, I'm not sticking around on one rose too long, you know, I'm I'm, I'm moving forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think your, your success and in your ability to be a good teacher and mentor to others, um is going to be enhanced, yeah, by that approach um to.
Speaker 3:I agree with lots of life what I tell my students and reason why I develop. You know, I think you know friendships or mentorships with a lot of them that I keep in touch with. I actually give a damn about them. I mean, I'm not. I'm not Dude, I'm with you. Yeah, it's not. I'm not doing this job because I make good money.
Speaker 1:You're doing it for the gratification you get out of helping these other people and seeing them succeed and their relationships. Yeah, I mean it's fantastic. I just showed my wife last night it was funny you say that, but just last night I showed her a picture on LinkedIn of one of my former students with his insurance agency and probably 30 employees. Insurance agency bears his name. They're all there. I said this is one of my former students, that's cool. Look at this guy yeah, man. Look at how successfully he's got 600 new clients last year.
Speaker 3:That's cool, you know, that's a legacy. That's a legacy, man.
Speaker 1:You know way to go. That's right. I just saw another one of my former students over here at the coffee shop this morning. That's cool, you know, I just love seeing him be successful. I'm with you on that Same. That's why we're doing this podcast. Yep, we may not get the feedback from everybody we can influence, but doggone it, we're trying to help people get into it and get through it. There you go, you know, get into business and get through business and be a success in the end as success is. You define it as the end as success as you define it as the individual, not society necessarily, that's right, mark, that was some beautiful emotional shit, man.
Speaker 1:Thanks, buddy Is that what I'm talking about, man. You're all about the emotions. That's why I love you. I love you too, man. You say I'm not emotional Dude. I can cry at an AT&T commercial. Just ask my wife yeah, I love too, man. You see, I'm not emotional dude. I can cry at an AT&T commercial. Just ask my wife yeah, I love Hallmark movies. They make you cry. Yes, they do, dude, I do cry at movies a lot. I watched that one the other night. Just get pitched, don't look at me, man. I watched that one. It ends with us.
Speaker 3:That's real controversial right now with blake lifelike. Have you seen that? My wife tried to make me watch. That was too emotional.
Speaker 2:It was good, I thought it was you know what the most I I've watched? I've watched this scene a million times and I cry every time. What's that? Have you ever seen? The patriot? Oh yeah, you know. When the little girl runs to mel gibson, oh it's horrible, leave, I'm crying right now breaks. It breaks me every time. Oh yeah, it's horrible. It breaks me Like I can't help it, like I know it's coming. I'm like don't cry. And I start crying.
Speaker 3:You're breaking me down here, right here, that's stuff.
Speaker 1:That's some good stuff. Well listen, we're getting off the track here. I think it's time we wrap this up, but it Jesse and Misha has, hasn't it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've always wanted to be on here. You guys are a lot of fun, you know. And, mark, I value your reputation. Nate, no smoke. I know you don't like compliments, so get over it. Here it comes. It's hug time. It's hug 30. Yeah, you know is your reputation around the universities is unbelievable.
Speaker 1:You know, when I hear my students talk about you it's just great. So I appreciate what you're doing. Thanks, it's kind of you to say. I just hope my rate, my professor ratings, reflect that.
Speaker 3:That's still brutal, right oh yeah, I'm telling you, man, how is it some of the professors who I hate this a question. We're going to have nine more minutes, all right. How is it? Some of the how some of now I gotta go to some of the professors would be how are they not on? Rate my professor and, and I know some of those guys are a-holes, so why aren't they on there? How do you get off? I can't tell you.
Speaker 2:It's a secret thing, man, you're not there yet, bro, I mean you got to know the secret.
Speaker 3:Hey, my score's pretty good right now, so your at Mark's is great.
Speaker 1:I bet it is. You know, they used to rate you. To rate you, did you know that, with chili peppers as to how hot you worked, did? Yes, they had a rating system for how hot you were. I never got a single chili pepper, and this goes back 20 years. So, wow, man, that's so. You know, man. So forget all the ratings of how beautiful you get chili pepper. Now I I never got it. That never really bothered. But my former mother-in-law did and, believe me, she didn't deserve it. But I'll leave it at that. That's not right. No, that ain't right. So no, they dumped that system. I guess that was considered too sexist or something, come on, inappropriate. That's good grief. So no more chili peppers, but thanks. Thanks, jesse. No, it's great having you here. We'd love to have you back again. Would you come?
Speaker 2:back. I would be honored to.
Speaker 3:Bring your brother psychoanalyze us. Yeah, and I think there's really something on to this practitioner, academic side. To take something that is otherwise some really boring, unreadable stuff and convert it into something that's relevant, I think it'd be fun, who knows?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's great when it comes from somebody like you, who's been through the ups and downs and made it through and has a tremendous business that bears your name and has transformed itself multiple times.
Speaker 3:I'm not man, I'm not resting. You know, the thing to wrap me up here would be you know, we all remember when the Seahawks played the Patriots, right. You know, we all remember when Tony Romo dropped the extra point. That's what keeps me up at night, every night. It's first and goal at this point, and you know it does like that you were a Texas kicker.
Speaker 1:I was watching yesterday Poor Auburn.
Speaker 3:Bad day for that guy. They ended up winning, but I would say, man, I'm not resting, you know, and I don't take the success for granted because I know I was eating poo-poo four years ago, so you know we're going to get this into the end zone. Yeah, I love it Good.
Speaker 1:All right, Well, until next week. This has been another episode of Big Talk About Small Business.
Speaker 4:Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk About Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, wwwbigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business and be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes and ask questions about upcoming shows.