Big Talk About Small Business
Hosted by Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Our Mission is to inspire, empower, and equip entrepreneurs with the knowledge and insights they need to succeed in their ventures. Through engaging conversations with industry experts, seasoned entrepreneurs, and thought leaders, we aim to provide valuable strategies, actionable advice, and real-world experiences that will enable our listeners to navigate the challenges, seize the opportunities, and build thriving businesses.
Big Talk About Small Business
Ep. 75 - Why Small Businesses Fail at Marketing (And How to Fix It)
Can marketing be the lifeline your small business needs to thrive, even when you're flying under the radar of giant corporations? This week, Jeremy LaDuke from Epic 9 joins us to share his journey in revolutionizing marketing strategies for businesses earning between $5 million and $50 million annually. With his hands-on experience, Jeremy shines a light on the importance of calculated risk-taking and creative branding, sharing stories of success and challenges faced by businesses that don't have the luxury of in-house marketing teams. From the significance of strategic planning to the power of bold marketing choices, Jeremy offers a treasure trove of insights for those ready to embrace change and innovate.
Dare to defy traditional marketing norms? We unpack the potential of audacious strategies and the pitfalls of playing it safe—essential listening for startups and innovation-driven companies. We discuss how embracing unique branding, like that of Liquid Death and Red Bull, can set a business apart in a crowded market. By pushing boundaries and understanding consumer psychology, small businesses can forge deeper connections with their audiences. We also delve into the art of identifying and targeting the most profitable customer segments, a crucial step for anyone looking to sharpen their marketing edge without alienating potential clients.
Struggling to manage a marketing budget on a shoestring? Discover the Climb Club initiative—a genius solution for businesses under the million-dollar mark that offers valuable resources and community support for just $58 a month. With Jeremy's guidance, we explore how this initiative empowers small business owners to DIY their marketing while maximizing their budget's impact. We emphasize the importance of having a strategic marketing framework and the value of shared learning in a collaborative environment. Whether you're looking to evolve and adapt your strategies or find the right audience fit, this episode offers the tools and insights needed to navigate the marketing landscape with confidence.
all right, everybody. Uh, we're back again with another episode of big talk about that small business and we've got a guest with us today. Um, he's virtual and we have jeremy leduc from merrillville. I gotta say that right Merrillville. We say that here too we say Fayetteville, when they say Fayetteville.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we know, you're not from around these parts. You're not from around here, are you so?
Speaker 1:anyway, we've been trying to get together with Jeremy for God knows how long.
Speaker 4:You know what, jeremy? It was you that, when we had you scheduled back last summer and then you were part of the scheme of my celebration party for Vice Spider. That's right. Yeah, I forgot about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, jeremy, yeah, I got an email saying, hey, we're going to cancel, but pretend like it's still going. Yes, an email saying, hey, we got it, we're going to cancel, but pretend like it's still going. And or or no, no, no, no, mark, you said. You said figure out a reason why you have to cancel because we've got to do this this birthday party, so or or retirement party or something.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's what Mark called it on LinkedIn. Eric's retirement party, yeah, and I'm like I'm the last thing from being retired.
Speaker 1:Man, well, you did from that business, that's true, that's true. So at least you went out of there with a bag full of money, so I guess that's good. But uh, that's what he says. But but anyway, um, no it. Uh, we appreciate that. Jeremy, I forgot about that.
Speaker 4:You were so fun, yeah yeah, thanks for doing that man. He really took one for the team there and was actually surprised. I had no idea what was going on. He did a beautiful job though.
Speaker 1:He's always so gracious and gives credit to other people for his success. Yeah, well, it's true, eric is one of the loveliest people you'd ever meet. Jeremy, he really is a good guy. Thanks, mark, got that recorded. Yeah, we're here, though. Thanks, mark, got that recorded. Yeah, we're here, though. We want to talk to Jeremy. Jeremy is a wide-ranging marketing expert.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was looking at his profile and stuff again here recently and I'm like man, this guy has been marketing his face off for years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when I saw he had worked on a product with Ninja in the name, I thought, oh my God, eric's going gonna have a lot in common with this guy, because eric had a product called skew ninja. Yeah, yeah, skew ninja, oh okay, oh yeah yeah, that's fun yeah, that's fun so, so I'm just gonna say tell us a little bit about yourself, give it, give our audience a little rundown on jeremy ledoux yeah.
Speaker 3:so I guess the the the Reader's Digest version. Um, then, uh, started my company, Epic 9, uh, 11 years ago, been doing that Um, you know, you know how it is 80, 80 hours a week, uh, for the last last 11 years, Um, which I'm super excited to talk about this last year as well. But really got my start way back when in high school days doing graphic design, web design, and kind of did it on the side for over a decade and then decided to launch out and give it a go as an entrepreneur. So here we are.
Speaker 1:So tell us about some of the companies that you work with and some of the services that your company provides.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Epic 9 Proper, we work with companies that are in that $5 million to $50 million a year range. It's about that time when they have a decent budget for their marketing and advertising. But they haven't grown to the point when they have a decent budget for their marketing and advertising but they haven't grown to the point where they have a whole in-house team doing things. But we do everything from branding and strategy and just creative strategy figuring out ad campaigns and whatnot to implementing that strategy. So websites, video production, media buys all of the things that go into marketing. So if it smells like or looks like or sounds like marketing, we do it and what's your primary role there now?
Speaker 4:Are you kind of more on the strategic side, meeting with clients, building out plans and proposals and such yes, yeah, that's kind's my favorite part to do.
Speaker 3:I wear several other little hats, but the the main role, main function I have for the business is the the creative strategy.
Speaker 1:So you find that there are companies with five to 50 million in revenue who actually have marketing and advertising budgets. That's definitely something that we observe in so many small, privately held companies is that they just don't believe in and and invest in marketing like they should.
Speaker 3:It's fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's like the greatest single deficiency, if there was one, is that.
Speaker 4:Why do you think that's the case with your experience? I mean, when you talk with, I mean, these companies and they're like you know well, do you have a budget, I mean, and I think that there's kind of two budgets in this right. You have a marketing budget which is just kind of your resources and just the plans of support execution team, kind of your resources, and just the plans of support execution team. Then you have the ad budget which is just paying for media outside, you know, to push your product and brand. But I mean a lot of times, like when you approach them, do they have one or the other, or is it neither sometimes, or what's the kind of it's all over the board.
Speaker 3:So what we come across a lot is you ask what the budget is. They have no idea, right, it's not necessarily a line item in their budget that they stick to. Precisely A lot of the times they're spending money on marketing things but they're not necessarily putting it in the marketing budget. It's just kind of all over the board. Then, and then you've got folks that come to us and they're they're very, you know, they're down to the, down to the uh, you know, last cent, they've got it mapped out, um, and so it's.
Speaker 3:It really is across the board, um, but I would say, more often than than not, what we deal with is folks who come in and and they're they're not really sure what their goals for their marketing are or should be. And so that's the. That's the first step we take with them is figuring out what's that measurable goal that we're shooting for. So at the end of the day, you know, after we've gone, you know, six months, 12 months, we can say marketing worked or marketing didn't, and that's where we start and then we build out all right, to get there, what sort of investment do you need? What sort of uh strategy do you need?
Speaker 4:you know, I mean, I think this, this whole, I mean we could probably spend hours on the marketing budget discussion, because but I think that maybe the reader or the listeners would love to hear a little bit more about this, because this is like a demystification of the unknown. It's like what is your marketing budget? You know it. So hard to calculate and I think that there's different steps and stages. Right, and Jeremy, you could probably fill in on this. But, to your point, you have somebody that doesn't have anything. They don't know what they're doing, they don't really practice marketing, they don't have it on staff. They're like hey, jeremy, I don't do any marketing, I got this business going.
Speaker 1:No, wait a minute, we don't believe in that. We believe that word of mouth, yes, is what? Um word of mouth's the best advertising yeah, oh yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker 3:Word of mouth is the only way businesses have ever grown, ever that's right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's the way, and you don't do anything to push the word of mouth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have, they don't worry about it they're in the first place and doing business with you, so they can give you word of right, yeah, right, but it's magic really it's.
Speaker 4:It is just magic, it just falls out of the sky. You know which? I think that if you're starting a business, you know, you have to know that you have to invest in marketing. You don't have, I don't think that one should even think about an roi when they're starting to invest in marketing. You, you know, like what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, not everything is going to give you a tangible direct result that you can tie to a specific marketing effort. Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of people think it's going to be today.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because they hear big companies talking about ROI but they don't think about those. Big companies have a huge staff or big agency and also.
Speaker 3:Also, I'd say in the last like 10, 10 years or so we have the marketing industry as a whole has focused really hard on this, uh, performance marketing, the roi, all the acronyms, right, the cpcs, the rois, all the things and we've failed to to uh or was forgotten about.
Speaker 3:Um, there's a lot of intangible return that you get just from good branding good, good awareness that you're never going to be able to put a dollar sign on that. But they found that when you do your branding and your your awareness really well, it that's how brands grow, that's that's that what they do, they don't grow from Google ads.
Speaker 3:I mean, there's going to be somebody out there that gets mad and says I grew my business from zero to a million dollars on Google. There are exceptions, but for the vast majority of businesses you grow your brand long-term with great branding and awareness. If you don't have some sort of budget going towards that, then you are shooting yourself in the foot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean one thing is inquiries. The other is what's your close rate and the familiarity and the brand has such an impact on that, and what kind of pricing can you charge for whatever it is you're selling? Again, a good brand reduces risk on the part of the customer and it's it's so interrelated. Back on on on, you know, startups and growth companies, though One thing I always try to get my students to understand is, in clients, if they want to grow at a faster rate than the industry that they're part of, what makes them think that's going to happen if they don't spend more money than the industry. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It's like yeah, Well, there's. So here's. Here's what we've run into, especially especially with businesses, small businesses that are starting up that are, I would say, that are under that million dollar a year revenue mark. Um, they are good at whatever they do, right, they're good at whatever service or product they offer. They're good at that. And so they look out at the at the world, because the marketing is not their, their forte, it's not what they're they're doing. Sure, they look out the world and say, okay, what's this other person down the road? How are are they? How are they positioning themselves? How are they marketing themselves? And they said, oh, it's Joe's. You know Joe's plumbing. Well, I'll call mine. You know Mark's plumbing. Um, and because it it feels safe, yeah and so, and so they they're.
Speaker 3:I'd say the biggest risk in marketing is playing it safe. Um, you're, you're. You're losing out on opportunity, You're losing out on just the ability to be memorable by playing it safe. Again, we're over here in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains. There are probably a list of a thousand different businesses that start with Smoky Mountains and they typically have a logo with a mountain range right, and every time I see it I'm like y'all, it's not memorable, You're just blending into the noise.
Speaker 1:Here everything is a pig, a hog or a Razorback or Ozark yeah, occasionally Ozark.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the danger of being around something iconic, I think yeah exactly, and plus pigs don't necessarily have a positive image.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the danger of being around something iconic, I think. Yeah, exactly, and plus pigs don't necessarily have a positive image. No, they don't, you know. I mean, think about it, it's true. But yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 4:I love the statement playing it safe, because here's one thing that I go irate about right, and it happens even here. You know, as a startup company that's not known in the market, we're actually an innovation company too. There's not anybody around us that's doing what we're doing. So we're trying to inspire and educate the for a new industry in a way, for the production here. But when we do a marketing campaign, when people are too safe, they're like that didn't really have any benefit, that didn't really do anything for the company.
Speaker 4:That effort, and I'm like as like, there is no such thing as a zero return marketing effort, ever. It cannot happen. And there's no such thing as a zero return meeting. It does not exist. And I think that that pessimism that you know, that safety people are looking for, it's like how do I? It's? It's like how do I take a thousand dollars, invest in the market and, and you know, have a positive return on everything that happens? You, just like you said, you have to take some risk, but you got to know that if you throw out a direct mail piece to 5 000 people and get zero return leads on it, it doesn't mean that it did not have any impact.
Speaker 3:Yeah, unless it never left the mail house right yeah that's that's the one thing that's funny you say that, hey, yeah, and even then, even then there's a postal worker that's seeing that, that branding, and it's good point.
Speaker 4:There's somebody that looked at 5 000 mail pieces and go I'm not sending, but they know, but you know.
Speaker 4:I mean like that is one thing that I've checked into is like if something doesn't work, like you look at the mechanics of the effort and did something break down and it literally didn't get in the postbox, you know, yeah, so, but anyway, I really appreciate that's and that's what yeah, and the brand, the brand awareness stuff, the stuff that you, that you don't really have an ability to measure a hundred percent we always tell people, like don't, the phone's not going to ring tomorrow off of this?
Speaker 3:Right, you need a billboard. Right, billboards are good, but nobody's going to call you because they saw that billboard, but it it. It's that nudge, right it's. You're just constantly nudging people towards that decision and if you don't have all those pieces in place, then you're going to nudge less efficiently. It's so true.
Speaker 1:Here. I always like to bring the story up and forgive me, eric, for saying it again, but I think it's so critical to our listeners. Sam's Furniture is the best example of that. They were just another furniture store selling the same stuff that every furniture store in the nation sells. You know sofas with a secret, where they've got a compartment to throw your chips and put your your cup in. You know um mattresses, box strings, thomasville. You know sort of perfect sleeper, I mean, you know whatever the brand, the same stuff. And here they are in this strip mall, in this in Springdale, arkansas, in the sort of back location, and they just promoted and promoted and promoted. They were on billboards, they were on TV, they were on radio.
Speaker 1:You go to the airport and the elevator that you get on it's got a sam's furniture. Uh, you know, burned into the doors and so. But the point of all that is okay. So my ex-wife calls me up one day and she says hey, brooke, her friend just bought a new house. She's got five bedrooms and she needs to buy all new mattresses and box springs for it and she needs them by tomorrow. Who should we call? And I'm like get it at sam's. She goes, but she needs it tomorrow. I said same day delivery. Yeah, and it just like comes out of my you know it's the familiarity.
Speaker 3:Familiarity breeds trust. It breeds credibility. It's what you, it's what you, and it's just a matter of so here's. Here's my take on that, though. Um, they could have probably grown faster and better if their branding had been more distinct, right, it's not. There's nothing more boring than sam's furniture, right, like that's what. That's why they had to use so many billboards. That's why they had to have their logo printed everywhere, because it's inefficient. But when you have creative branding and good ideas and ideas that make an emotional connection whether it's humor or just boldness or whatever when you have those ideas that connect with people, your marketing is a lot more efficient. Right? Do you all have Buc-ee's where you're at? No, but we know what.
Speaker 3:Buc-ee's is, but you know what it is yeah, it's, it's that, it's that idea, right. So they, they spend a ton on billboards. Their social media is crap, right, their social media is garbage. They don't have a good social media presence at all. But they, they found this unique branding and niche type of thing and they just ran with it really hard. And so now, every time, every time you go on a road trip, everything you think where am I going to stop and get snacks and use the restroom?
Speaker 1:you know over here, yeah, yeah, bucky's has only been around here for a couple of years. Beaver nuggets, that's what they have. Yeah, yes, that's exactly but you know you're right about that. I mean, I always wanted to name a business that best furniture store or something like so. Then every time anybody talks about it, they talk about it in a positive light. Where are you going?
Speaker 4:I'm going to that new furniture, that best furniture store, or like my donut company that I want to start. Oh no, we were just talking about that this morning. I have a donut company that I wanted to start. Well, I can't say it, can I, because it'll let the cat out. It's called Deez Donuts, deez Donuts.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I love it.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you brought that up, because not that he brought up, deez.
Speaker 3:Donuts. Think about it. You're going, you're going to a town and and you've never, you've never been there before and you run a, are you going to go to, you know, the, the frosted donut. Are you going to go to these donuts? You're going to say, oh, that's kind of fun, I'm going to go there, I'm going to, just to get the t-shirt right?
Speaker 4:Yeah, here's the thing that I found I got the dot com. I've had the dot com for 15 years, literally 15 years.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't have that I tell you, eric, is something else. But why do? While we're talking about these names, why do companies today so many of them, especially these ones started by the young folk come up with these names that have no relationship to what they do Like? There was an electric vehicle company here that just went out of business called Canoo spelled C-A-N-O-O. Where do they come up with this?
Speaker 3:There are dumb risks, right. You should be, risky but you don't need to be dumb, risky.
Speaker 4:You get too outside the box, you're trying to be too distinguishable in a way, right, and then you've got to compete with your own brand to explain what you do.
Speaker 1:I always love it when companies I came out of the architecture and engineering industry and they're professional service providers they're not great marketers, most of them Some of them that are do really, really well, but I always like it when it'd be like ABC and Associates. And then they have this newsletter they send out called Infrastructure World. I'm like what brand are you trying to promote here, abc and Associates or Infrastructure World? I never understood that. It's like a total. Let's try to sell two things now that are unrelated. You know, but people seem to do stuff like that all the time, don't they?
Speaker 3:You know, but people seem to do stuff like that all the time, don't they? Yeah, they, they do, uh, they do, and, and part of it, I, I'm going to go, I'm going to pull back to branding. When you have a weak brand, it's every marketing decision you make is kind of a hurdle, right, um, because you're having to rethink like, how do, how do we, you know, market this the best, but we'll have a strong brand. All those, a lot of those decisions that you spend a lot, you waste a lot of time on with those, with those decisions, a lot of those things are kind of done for you, right? We know our voice is going to be this. We know our, our imagery is going to be this Our, yeah, our name, the theme. We, we are, uh, our name, the theme. Our full title is Epic Nine Marketing Outfitters. We are very camping-oriented.
Speaker 3:The book's called Climb. We've got Climb Club. So anytime we do a marketing piece, we know how we're going to lay it out right, so we don't have to waste a lot of time figuring out all right, what color do we use, or what font do we use, or what style is.
Speaker 1:It's just like a company that has no strategy. Then every single decision is so difficult to make it's got to be modified, whereas if you've got overarching strategy, you know go with that Right. Let's talk about your climb club, though Tell us a little bit about what that is, jeremy.
Speaker 3:So I'll pull us back around to budgets and I think that's a good way to tie it in. So Climb Club is built for those businesses that are under that million dollar a year revenue mark, and it's going to vary for different businesses, but when you're under that mark, typically what we've seen is it doesn't make sense to go to an agency to pay them to do the work for you. It doesn't make sense to even hire a freelancer necessarily because you need to use every dollar that you have in. Whatever marketing budget you have goes towards something, whether it's direct mail or ads or whatever Because when you come to an agency or when you go to a freelancer, the minute you take them $1,000, $500 of that, that's going to their pocket, right.
Speaker 3:And so you need to be able to take that money and make it as efficient as possible so that you can get over that mark. And what we encourage people to do is get to about that three thousand dollar a month, uh, budget. Um, that's when it starts making sense to have those conversations of can someone manage my ads for me? Can someone, uh, do my social media for me? That sort of thing? Um, because what we've seen is people there are people out there that, for you know, 500 bucks a month, they'll they'll manage your, your social media, and it looks like you pay them 500 bucks a month, they'll they'll manage your, your social media and it looks like you pay them 500 bucks a month. Right, it's the. It's the same cookie cutter posts on social media. There's nothing engaging in it.
Speaker 3:Um, there are some marketing costs that you need to plan for on the front end that you need to invest in, no matter what your branding, your website, those sorts of things but for the most part, when you're under that million dollar a year revenue mark, you need to. You need to be DIYing it as efficiently as you can. So we created Climb Club as a it's a, it's a bank of resources for folks to get in there to learn some marketing fundamentals to. They have a how to instructions on how to set up their, their Google analytics, how to measure things, how to how to do their email marketing all of the tools that they need to really do what they need to do on their own, and that's a great value.
Speaker 3:We're going to keep on adding to that, but the value that I really think that people get the most out of is the community. So we have a weekly mastermind where small business owners can come together and say, hey, this is, this is where I'm at, this is what I'm doing, and they can get and give advice to each other. Do you charge for that? Yeah, yeah, so it's. It's a 58 bucks a month, so it should. It should, no matter what budget you have. Cancel your Netflix account and sign up if you're strapped. That looks like it's only $17.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I think we pay more than that for it you know, what I mean.
Speaker 3:You get the idea.
Speaker 4:But I mean it makes a lot of sense because what you're doing is you're kind of grouping. It's like a learning environment, right, learning, networking, which are really important. If you're diy in marketing right, especially if you're starting a business, you have product fit, you know, you kind of got this aspiration but you don't like we're talking about, you just don't know marketing. A lot of times when people don't know something, they avoid it, right, because they don't want to be incompetent in it. But I like this idea for you to. You're basically giving a place for people to come and learn with other people that are learning, and then they can help each other grow on that. That's a good idea, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, eric had a marketing company, by the way, so just so you know, and more than once, and he converted it into a software company, which was an amazing transformation. But so, yeah, he understands where you're coming from on this.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, I mean I think that and I like the idea of how you've kind of packaged this into where, like these people that are a million dollars and less in revenue, right, and so you know they're really scrapping. And I appreciate the idea too of what you're saying is, you know, if you do hire a freelancer, they will suck that money up. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I mean it's just the reality. They have to get paid, they're in business, it goes to their time, but you don't know what you're getting with a freelancer.
Speaker 3:You know I've worked with a lot of freelancers in the marketing side. Yeah, they're not very good. There are some gyms out there, yeah, well, no, I'd say the fact.
Speaker 3:So the nature of our business right now is, if you have a computer or if you have a camera or a drone, you're a marketer right, so you can throw a rock anywhere you go and hit probably 10 of us, but there's no licensing right, there's no governing body that's saying you're a good marketer, you're a bad one, and so it's kind of a wild wild west scenario. So that's what we've seen is like every once in a while I'd say one in 20, you'll get somebody that's just a gem right. They are the diamond in the rough. They do great work, it gets good results, um, but the vast majority, I think, are they're just kind of not great, and so what happens to your small businesses.
Speaker 4:Small businesses waste a lot of money on them you and I can go on and on about this combo because we both get it. But, like, the thing that with marketing is is I don't, people don't realize how vast this industry is. Like it is, I mean I don't really know. Like, if I think of another division or department, like even in tech, I mean maybe maybe development technology has gotten there, you know, with all ai and stuff coming in. But when you say marketing, like to find a marketing professional, like there's so many different levels because you can't be a master at all, you know you have to be a jack of all trades, is kind of what. Jeremy is your strategist, right, he knows enough about all these pieces to put together the puzzle. And that's like if I was trying to freelance something out and I came to you, you cost me a lot and I mean you could build me a plan, you know, but that's going to take time, it's going to take investment, money. I'm not going to see a return for 90 days because you're trying to build a strategy, right, you know. And I mean, and then, and then I can tell you you, if I was under a million dollars, like you're talking about, and I hired you, I'd be frustrated at day 45 because I'm like where's the return? You know, I don't have enough capital to keep paying for that. So you're not the person to turn to necessarily Like I mean and I'm not trying to, you know, no, you're exactly right.
Speaker 4:But the thing is is like do you need a designer? Do you need a brand designer? Do you need a logo designer, which is different than a brand designer? And then you have an artist that's not just a logo designer, but they're actually an illustrator, and do you really even need all that? I mean, you know what I'm saying it's like. And then you got your PPC, your SEO, you got your writing. I mean, there's content marketing, there's social.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's just direct mail experts, yeah, experts in Shopify, trade show marketers, right I mean, which is a whole other level.
Speaker 3:Real, and here's what happens is you go to someone that's good at one thing right, so you might go to someone that's really good at web design, design and then you ask them about this other thing and you know what they're going to tell you.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah, I can do that.
Speaker 1:Well, that's, that's the same thing I always tell I always tell my students it's the same thing with attorneys, you know they'll all say, yeah, they can do that, but that doesn't mean they're the best divorce attorney or the best one to paper up your m&a deal or the best one to look at your franchise operating agreement. I mean, those are all specialties they are. But back on marketing, though as a subject matter. I think you know again, most small business owners think marketing is only promotion. You know, when you look at the four Ps in the marketing mix, I think it's just such a great thing when it's product price promotion and Physical distribution.
Speaker 1:It really touches everything. It's so it is strategic. It should happen at the top level, where you really decide like what business are we in? What do we sell? Those are marketing.
Speaker 3:Yes, I would say if you're, if you're, if you're a small startup, have them bring a marketing person in to talk about your product, right? Yes, if you're a larger business and you've got a team of people, make sure your marketing person is in product development, is in the pricing conversations, because they're the one that know what people are going to do. Right, otherwise, you just get you got some engineers that are tinkering around creating this widget that may not be sellable and so but but the marketer could kind of come in, ideally, right, if they're a good marketer they're going to, they're going to be a little empathetic and know what will your consumers actually buy and how much will they pay and all of those sort of things.
Speaker 3:They'll have a better gauge on that, because a lot of times what we deal with is is someone brings us, you know, a service or a product and we're like, huh, that's just, it's not great. And so a lot of what we wind up doing in the strategic conversations is why don't we tweak this a little bit, why don't we change this and package it up a little bit differently? And, uh, that's fun, um, but a lot of times those decisions are made before they ever get to us you know one thing that I don't know if this is in your climb club or not, but it maybe.
Speaker 4:it is maybe or it should be. I think marketing is a cultural thing, yes, and it's just like sales, sales. All these things have to be cultural, but marketing in particular, which is often not. Everybody should be a marketer, everybody should be thinking about that, because if you can make that into a cultural value or perspective, Then it guides your daily action Exactly, without a rule and without a policy and procedure.
Speaker 4:That's the point Because, especially in today's time, every click, everything that anybody sees, has got to bring in that prospect. You know somebody's discovering you. Is it easy to click around? Did I leave a phone number? You know some of these misses that like. And why can't people see, like, the touch points, the touch points of how to contact the freaking company? Yes, like there's nothing, dude, I spent. I'm going to fort worth this weekend, right for my daughter. She's got a soccer thing going on there for college and I'm trying to go to the Cowboy Coliseum to watch a rodeo. Sure, I know where it is Northside.
Speaker 1:Fort Worth.
Speaker 4:I had to spend five minutes on their website digging to find out where the hell this place is at, because I already booked a ticket. I'm just trying to get an address so I know where to go. Sure, five minutes, it's crazy. I know it's insane. On your website, like it should be the most prominent thing Location I mean you have an event location Like everybody wants to know that answer.
Speaker 1:You know it's so true. Can I shift gears, though, for a minute, Because I totally agree with what you're saying.
Speaker 4:But here's another one, jeremy, I'm curious you're the host, so you're the host and you're the host, obviously you're not I.
Speaker 1:I want to hear what jeremy has to say about this, though. Do you find that a lot of small businesses don't know who their target customer is, because obviously that guides everything right, like who are we trying to Like? Who are we trying to attract? Who are we trying to sell? Whatever we sell to Seems like so many of them are like well, anybody can buy this. Okay, no, all right, who's your focus? Who's your primary target customer? It impacts every decision that you make. Yeah.
Speaker 3:We run into that, a lot of folks that come in and be like oh my thing is good for everybody, everybody wants this or everybody can use it. And I think part of the problem is they a lot of, a lot of small businesses, especially on the local level. Um, people who aren't. They didn't really start something to like think about scaling it to a national level or or, uh, creating a franchise or do anything like that, but that there's local businesses Um it. What seems to happen is they.
Speaker 3:They are good at this thing that they're doing, they rush into it and they they start a business because someone told them it was a good idea. They rush into it and they start a business because someone told them it was a good idea. But they've never really sat back and kind of had these conversations and really thought through who makes me the most money, like, what sort of person is going to be the best customer for me? What sort of opportunities am I leaving on the table by not going after specific groups of people? And so that's and those are the conversations we love to have with folks, as well as helping them figure out are there opportunities you're missing by not focusing in and being targeting a certain group. Now there are other businesses that, yeah, their product is for everybody. Right, you can, anybody can do it, and it's.
Speaker 1:That's hard to market.
Speaker 4:I like ones that have a narrower audience. Oh yeah, more niche the better, right, and I would say too, like just because you think a target audience is your direct but you need to be exploring others. Yeah, exactly, and like making efforts to speak to them. What are their needs? Everybody's needs is different, especially because this happens to me a lot in my businesses. I have a target audience. It's a perfect fit for them. They should be doing it, they need to be doing it. It's obvious as absolute hell, but guess what? They don't have the freaking budget to spend to pay for it. So you've got to go find a different target audience, and so your goal is is to find the right audience that has the interest, has the need and the budget to spend on it, or you'll be out of business because you can knock on all the doors in the world, but you don't have any money.
Speaker 4:You don't have any money, yeah, and don't have any money, yeah, and it could be seasonal and even and even for those, those businesses that do they can appeal to everybody in terms of your marketing.
Speaker 3:You, you do need to, you do need to be. You didn't you need to speak to a specific group a lot of the times and be distinct with them, because if you try to appeal to everybody, then you're going to be forgettable to most of them Exactly. You've got to be willing to lose some customers in order to gain some. I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always like to think about that when I do business with any business. Do they know who their target customer is? Am I fitting into that? Do they know who their target customer is? Am I fitting into that? And you know, when I think back, like Abercrombie and Fitch, they did a great job 20 years, 20, 25 years ago. You know, I got older kids and whenever you went to buy clothes they wanted to go to Abercrombie. Today they all want to go to Lululemon, as I'm sure you've seen here. Oh, yeah, totally With your daughters, but back then. So you go to ever crumpy and I go to the mall and you go in there and it's dark, there's music playing too loud, the smell of the cologne I was just gonna say that and I would be like I hate this freaking place.
Speaker 1:Okay, my two teenage daughters would want to and I'd be like I'm gonna going to go sit outside. Here's my credit card. Buy what you want, okay, and then come back.
Speaker 3:And if for that, if it was for that reason only, just to drive off the parents, that was probably a good decision when the credit cards let the kids shop, we make it so annoying.
Speaker 1:They knew their brand, they knew they were targeting so effectively, though, and like you say, you run off. Some customers, like grandmas, aren't going to go over there to buy stuff for their grandkid, but boy, the grandkids are going to be in there. I mean, you've got to have that focus, it just seems so critical and they were so niche.
Speaker 4:I mean, it's like they had that specific audience and that's what they dove into.
Speaker 1:But I'm sure that they had to explore it. Yeah, you know, that's what I find it. Yeah, that's wasn't the original audience.
Speaker 4:I guarantee it. That's the thing is like. If you're an entrepreneur and you're trying to get a business off the ground, like you may not be freaking right, it's okay, that is so true, and you gotta you gotta pivot, oh please.
Speaker 1:Eric knows I hate that term pivot, my ass.
Speaker 4:Okay, sorry, but you do have to adapt, you have to evolve, you have to move and shake.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have to adapt and evolve.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, yes, it's so true, you don't that, hey, jeremy, so on your climb, uh, on on your club, and that's what it's called, right Climb club. So is this just something? Is this something that anybody I mean, that's that's Pete can participate in, I mean, even if they're not local to where you're at?
Speaker 3:Yep, it's, it's all online, so yeah. Anybody anywhere can, can join, yeah, theclimclubcom. And yeah, you can sit up there. We've got a free month trial. So uh, jump in, uh, uh join us for a month and and if you decide it's not for you, then then you know no harm, no foul you know, and I'd like to like plug it a little bit too, because I love this idea it's, it's, it's really a genius idea.
Speaker 4:I commend you on it, because if there's one thing in marketing and you that you can agree with me on, it's like it's in any ever changing space, like if you are not constantly learning, you're not relevant.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, yeah what you did yesterday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't think of another industry where it's this fast paced. The change is just constant. It's a little exhausting, but that's the nature of it. It's like when you're in that small startup, local business arena, you're kind of in this no man's land of marketing where you need to market or you're going to die, of marketing where you need to market, or you're going to die, or and you don't have a budget to market. So it's like what do you do? And that's, I think that's a big part of why, you know, 80% of small businesses fail before they get to the year five. It's this is one of those elements, right, this core element. You know you got your, you got your marketing, you got your finances and your and your legal stuff, um, but they, they.
Speaker 4:I'd say, more often than not, marketing is probably the, the crux of it, because if you don't have business coming in, it makes all the other issues, uh, worse and I'd say, if you're not in an environment where you're constantly evolving and learning and changing and drilling down, trying to to find this, and then, by the way, your whole target audience could change too. It's so true you know that, like technology can disrupt your entire audience and they have no need, but then you have to be ready to go find somebody else. Like you know, in a lot of things, like with all this, this macro evolution of tech right, which is threatening a lot of things, you know apparently threatening. You know marketing we talk about all the time customer service.
Speaker 1:You know that's going to always be. It's the one thing you can differentiate yourself from Totally.
Speaker 4:But do you market this it's part of marketing, yes. And do you market it's about the customer service? And then hit those problem value propositions Like are you tired of calling and talking to freaking robots? You can have an entire campaign about robot, it's your machines.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just like rail on. I mean everybody's going to be like yeah when I call them. Yeah, that's it, man. It's true. The only Jeremy about your climb club, just as a consultant over here, lifetime myself. Why only 58 bucks? I mean, if they'll pay 58, they'll pay 99. Aren't you leaving money on the table?
Speaker 3:Hey, that's one of those trial and error type of things. We might raise the price at one point, but yeah, no, I've kind of had that reaction from a lot of people. That's a no-brainer. Yes, sign me up, but I'll be honest with you. Marketing an online community is something that I've never done before, so this is new to me.
Speaker 3:I'm kind of learning as I go and so I wouldn't say we've got it right yet. We're trying some different things and kind of just trying to figure it out. But pricing it's one of those weird things where you want to price it at some. You don't want to make it free, but you don't want to make it too expensive. But the more expensive you make it, the more valuable people perceive it as right, whether they from the outside or the inside.
Speaker 3:An anecdotal story do free consultations. They were not small 15-minute calls. I used to sit down with people and spend an hour, hour and a half, sometimes two hours, like hey, this is what you need to do. These are some ideas you need to try. Here are some blah, blah, blah. If we do it for you, it's going to cost this much. They would look at the price and be like, no, we're good. They would go down the road to the company that was cheaper and do all the things I told them to do.
Speaker 3:The minute that we started charging for that, our conversion rate went up like double at least, and we started out at $99. This was about close to six years ago. We started out at $99. It's charging. All right, this, this consultation, is $99. Now we've we've just kind of inched that up and now we do the same it's. We were a little bit more involved with it, we we put a little more time into it, but the essentially the same thing is is 2000 close to 2000. So yeah, I would say if, if there's, if there's people out there that are just starting to do something, especially if it's service-based, you probably need to charge more than what you're charging.
Speaker 4:And your client club is kind of like an online consulting in a way. Right, I mean, it's like where you can pay the $58. Do you self-learn in this environment? Is that kind of the?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so you can go through and watch the videos and do the things at your own pace.
Speaker 2:So it's video training there's also the mastermind, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's good. So it's about half and half. There's a lot of videos. There's also some written, kind of step-by-step instruction, type of things.
Speaker 4:Do you have webinars and things?
Speaker 3:like that for your members. Yes, yeah, we do those occasionally.
Speaker 1:Good, I have several companies I want to get turned on to this. I was thinking right now, as soon as we get off, I'm going to be sending them some emails and texts to sign up for this thing.
Speaker 4:We'd love to have them, and so they can go to theclimbclubcom forward slash big talk about small business.
Speaker 3:Hey and get a 404 right now, but we will put that.
Speaker 4:Why don't you do that and see how many of our listeners come to there you?
Speaker 3:know, sure, um, yeah, let uh, uh, let's, let's get that here and we'd love to. Yeah, yeah, or we can, or we can, we can put a coupon code or something, something in there some way to track them. I would say, um, I'll say this that this is, this is a, this is a huge plus, this is a huge benefit to your listeners. If they come, they sign up and we can track them back to you guys, I will give them a free Kindle version of the book.
Speaker 1:Wow, there you go.
Speaker 3:I know the doors are going to be busted down now?
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you don't understand how many millions of listeners we have. Oh yeah, it's crazy, you don't?
Speaker 1:understand how many millions of listeners we have. Oh yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. We can't even go out on the street here without getting stopped, Jeremy, by people telling us how much they love our show. It does happen. You've been on a few airplane rides. It's the craziest thing I know I've been on planes. People come up to me. I've seen you guys.
Speaker 3:Has that really happened? Oh yes, yeah, that's impressive. Yeah, you've made it as a podcaster.
Speaker 1:It's absolutely bizarre. Yeah, I mean us. We're right below Joe Rogan. You know it's coming. We just have to get some people on here who've had like alien encounters and stuff to really get the big audience. So, jeremy, what are your thoughts on ufos?
Speaker 3:no, I'm so glad you asked. I've actually I've actually got another online community, all about that yeah, so, um so.
Speaker 1:So back back to sort of wrap things up though yeah, you work with a lot of small businesses, all right, you've seen a lot of people start businesses. What would be the most critical piece of advice that you could give to small business owners that is going to increase their odds of succeeding at whatever they're doing?
Speaker 3:Be distinct. I think it goes back to branding, but be, be distinct. If you look like everybody else, you're going to be forgettable and the the you will waste more money being forgettable than you will just about anything else. Um, if you're forgettable, your ads are extremely inefficient, um, and people just aren't going to remember you. But if you're distinct and you can build those memory structures um easily, um, then you're going to, you're going to save yourself a lot of time and money, um.
Speaker 3:I would say this to it being distinct make it. It will make you nervous, right? Because it kind of makes you go out on a limb a little bit. And so, on a practical level, I would say, if you're making a marketing decision and it doesn't make you at least a little bit nervous, it's probably boring and it's probably forgettable. So I would say, for for all small business owners out there, don't be afraid of doing something that just kind of kind of kind of makes you question yourself just a little bit, because if you're doing something that that is safe and feels good, it's going to waste your money.
Speaker 4:Hey Jeremy, can you give us some examples? That's great, yeah, it really is really good advice, and I agree 100%. What are some examples of being distinct, though? Like I mean throw some out? I mean, there's a lot of them that are going in my brain, but I'd love to hear what you're thinking.
Speaker 3:One of my favorite ones is a water company, and so you go to your gas station. You open the cooler where the bottled waters are. What do you see most of the time?
Speaker 1:Describe that scene You're talking about brands.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the colors, what's it look like? White and blue and gray and silver. Yeah, maybe a waterfall or a deer or some woodland creature. Yeah, yeah, a lot of names with springs and, yeah, and crystal. And yeah, yes, yes, art, yes, artisan, um, one of one of the companies that I'm actually fascinated with and I fanboy over a little bit.
Speaker 3:Um is a company that came on the scene I think about six or seven years ago and they, they entered a saturated market, no pun intended, or pun intended, um, that is, they entered a saturated market and, uh, they did something just completely off the wall. Um, they came in and they didn't, they didn't make a clear bottle, they didn't, you know, put water imagery on it. Really, they put their water in a can and called it liquid death. Yeah, um, and they, they are valued at, I think, close close to, or over a billion dollars now. Wow, yeah, uh, and the.
Speaker 3:The thing that pushed them over the edge is they went with a very distinct branding. Right, you don't miss this thing. Like it looks like, it almost looks like it's a beer, yeah, and that's part of that's part of how they kind of got their foothold, as they were in a lot of festivals and it gave people who were non-drinker you know they didn't drink beer gave them a way to kind of have something to hold and not look like they're just holding a bottle of water. The water's not great, right? There's nothing differentiated about the water. It tastes like it's from a can. It's not. It's you know.
Speaker 3:Um, some, some people are very particular. They have very strong feelings about Dasani or Aquafina, all that sort of stuff. But Liquid Death came along. They didn't. They didn't make any sort of like supreme water. They just made a very distinct brand that they were able to play into. All of their marketing and messaging is about death. It's very edgy, and so they're. Probably one of the extreme cases of this is how you be distinct and you take a risk and it pays off.
Speaker 4:I will say this Go ahead.
Speaker 3:I was going to say people don't get fired in large corporations for making safe decisions, and I think that's why, even if the, even if the, even if the safe decision is, is ineffective and it fails, they don't get fired for that, right? Um, but if you're, if, if you are making a risky decision and have a risky proposal, it it is scarier, but it oftentimes is a lot better. Um, rory Sutherland, one of one heroes, wrote this book called Alchemy. I think the subtitle is like the dark art and magic of marketing or something like that. But he uses this example of Red Bull and how they came up with the Red Bull.
Speaker 3:And you think about it. It's like it's a tiny little can. It's twice as expensive, it tastes like ass no-transcript had had tastes like Cola and we're going to put it in a bottle, you know, and charge a dollar 99 for it. No one would have said that's a horrible decision. You know you're going to get fired for that, but someone had to take a risk and say we're going to make this, we're going to make this tiny, tiny little can, we're going to charge twice as much for it. It's not going to be a great, it's going to be an acquired taste, right, people aren't going to naturally just gravitate towards this taste. But you think about all the psychological things that are happening when, with that decision, it's smaller, it's more expensive, so it feels more valuable. It tastes bad, so it must be doing something for me right.
Speaker 3:And so there's all of these kind of unintuitive, doesn't-make-sense-on-paper tactics that went into it. But in the real world because we're irrational kind of dumb decision-makers when it comes to our buying habits in the real world it works and it happens. I think the frustrating thing that a lot of small business owners do is if it doesn't look good on paper, if it doesn't make rational sense, they shy away from it. But what they don't understand is people are irrational and we and we have irrational buying habits, and so if you could tap into that, then you're you're golden.
Speaker 1:I think that's a good interesting point and you know, it's kind of. My dad was in the advertising business. He was Don Draper in real life in every regard. You know the jag, a close horse, stay out all night, you name it Okay. Anyway, he used to tell me ad executives die at age 57. He lived to be 96, but he retired at 57. But anyway, he always said marketing was ruined by research because, you know it, they took all the fun out of it. You know, and it, and there's something to that. It's like if you ask everybody what they want, yeah, and they tell you and then you deliver it and it flops. You know, I always use the example of the pontiac aztec. I don't know if you're a car guy, jeremy, but I mean, you know, I remember that, yeah, it was one of the most heavily researched automobiles in history.
Speaker 1:So was the, you know, and it turned out to be a total flop. They thought 25 year olds would buy it, or outdoorsy, you know, they sold it to like 70 year olds who wanted a cheap car. You know, it's like it totally missed the mark. Car, you know, it's like it totally missed the mark. Sometimes the mark you can go off course by asking people what they want. You've got to figure out something that they want or need, that they don't even know they want or need well, and that's.
Speaker 3:that's the thing I so. I don't don't quote me as saying this, but but sometimes great marketing, just it makes people want things. Yeah, right, it does. It's like exactly what you said. They don't know what they want until you present it, say you want this. Right, it's the same. It's with the distinction between an Apple and an Android phone, right? Or? Which camp do you guys fall in Apple? I'm on Android. I'm.
Speaker 1:Apple, you're Android, right or which? Which camp do you guys fall in apple I'm on android I'm apple. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, look at it. Oh dude, what the heck is wrong with you. It's freaking great. I moved to apple years ago when I decided I didn't want to have problems. Everything works.
Speaker 4:I'm going to apple because you're different. You are different.
Speaker 3:I'll grant you that. The fascinating thing about this is you both have reasons, and probably none of them are rational. Right, you? You made this. You made an emotional decision to choose a brand, yeah, and you built your reasons around it, like you started building reasons to justify why you're this Right, but there's there's really no rational reason for choosing one over the others. They're, they're both supercomputers in your pocket. They pretty much do the same thing, right, sure?
Speaker 1:So yeah, just one of them is a lot easier and more reliable. You're being 100% emotional right now. I was the last guy to give up on BlackBerry, jeremy, yeah.
Speaker 4:I was the last guy. Now, blackberry was a rational decision.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was legit. You know what I saw the other day, just this couple days ago. You can buy something for your phone that plugs into a case and it's got a blackberry keyboard built into it. No way, seriously, I could take this iphone and plug it in that thing with the blackberry keyboard. Did you need it anyway? I may have to try that someday, but all right, we're running out of time, um great episode, jeremy.
Speaker 4:Thanks for joining us, man. Yeah, it's really good this is fun.
Speaker 3:You guys, y'all, y'all are a great podcast, great host, thank you thanks, and well, he's the host.
Speaker 4:I'm just. I mean, you saw him on the show just a minute ago, like earlier on, like he's like. Hey, listen, eric, we've talked about this. You need to quit asking these questions. I'm the host. As mark's blog, sit back, shut up and just just play.
Speaker 1:He's so full of it. We're in his own studio here. Okay, he's the guy that's got the checkbook. So, anyway, I'm just an old guy. No, no, no, who Eric has taken under his wing. It used to be the other way around, you know, but it's switched. I always said the mentee has exceeded the mentor, and now I'm here to learn from him.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but I'm still scared of this guy. I'm scared of him to look at my finances and my business. He'll rip them apart. But I do use it against my team. I'm so scared of this guy Like I'm scared of him to look at my finances and my business He'll rip them apart. But I do use it against my team. I'm like do you want me to send this to Mark Zweig? And they're like, oh shit, I'll get my shit together.
Speaker 1:Well, listen, no, it's been, it's been. It's been great having you here, Jeremy, and we wish you continued success and thank you for helping the small businesses that you help, yeah.
Speaker 4:And everybody go check out the climb clubcom that's right and tell them that big talk about small business sent you and you'll get that hookup from Jeremy and if you need other help beyond the climb club, see Jeremy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4:Marketing strategy yeah, absolutely All right.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks guys.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Jeremy.
Speaker 1:And all right folks.
Speaker 4:Well, thanks, guys, Thank you, Jeremy, and all right folks. Well, we're going to sign off. It's been another episode of Big Talk About Small Businesses.
Speaker 2:Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk About Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, wwwbigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk about Small Business and be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes and ask questions about upcoming shows.