Big Talk About Small Business
Hosted by Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Our Mission is to inspire, empower, and equip entrepreneurs with the knowledge and insights they need to succeed in their ventures. Through engaging conversations with industry experts, seasoned entrepreneurs, and thought leaders, we aim to provide valuable strategies, actionable advice, and real-world experiences that will enable our listeners to navigate the challenges, seize the opportunities, and build thriving businesses.
Big Talk About Small Business
Ep. 82 - Balancing Business and Motherhood
What happens when an architect-entrepreneur adds "mother" to her list of titles? Jessica Hester's candid conversation about balancing business and family offers a refreshing perspective beyond the typical work-life balance clichés.
Jessica founded Verdant Studio from her laptop and dining room table ten years ago. Her journey includes acquiring another firm, surviving both embezzlement and COVID in 2020, and having a baby while running her business. With remarkable honesty, she shares how these challenges shaped both her business approach and leadership style.
For entrepreneurs considering acquisitions, Jessica offers hard-earned wisdom: hire forensic accountants to thoroughly examine books, ensure cultural alignment between companies, and obtain insurance protection against potential fraud. Her experience highlights the difference between theoretical preparation and the messy reality of business growth.
Female entrepreneurs face unique challenges in breaking into traditional business networks typically dominated by men. Jessica observes that while progress has been made, women must still navigate spaces like golf courses and hunting trips to build the relationships critical for business success. Despite these hurdles, research suggests women-owned businesses outperform those run by men.
Perhaps most fascinating is Jessica's approach to motherhood through an entrepreneurial lens. Unlike many women who step away from business after childbirth, she returned after just two weeks, gradually increasing her involvement. This approach reflects her comfort with risk and ability to adapt to new challenges – skills honed through years of entrepreneurship. Even with careful preparation, her business lost a major client during her maternity leave, underscoring the delicate balance required when stepping away from a business you've built.
Ready to start your own business journey? Jessica's advice is refreshingly straightforward: "Just do it." Whether you begin as a side hustle or take the full plunge, proper financial planning and market research can help overcome hesitation about risk-taking. Visit verdant-studio.com to learn more about Jessica's architectural work and approach to creating authentic spaces.
If you are a mother or you have a family and you're a female, figuring out how you're going to manage the motherhood piece with the entrepreneurship piece. It is extremely time consuming. Even if you own a successful business and you have a lot of support staff under you, you're constantly thinking about your business. You're constantly trying to make changes or run things or put out fires mostly put out fires.
Speaker 3:Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of Big Talk about small business. Mark Zweig has failed me today and has decided to not show up for the show. He's got more important things to do in life than to come on to Big Talk, but that's okay. I'm here. I know for most listeners Mark's the favorite. I'm just kind of the guy on the side. I'm his co-host, but anyway, I'm going to do my best here today.
Speaker 1:I have faith in you. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you. The good news is, though, I have an incredible guest with us today. Her name is jessica hester, and she owns a studio, an architectural firm, here out of fayetteville. Is it in fayetteville?
Speaker 1:no, it's in rogers.
Speaker 3:It's in rogers, northwest arkansas, uh design studio, architectural and design firm called Verdant Studio.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:I'm almost doing as good as Mark.
Speaker 1:You're doing so good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mark is so much more prepared than I am, which is a kind of a half lie. But anyway, jessica, welcome to the show. Thank you, it's great to have you here.
Speaker 1:Glad to be here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I appreciate your time, so tell us a little bit about Verdant Studios.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I founded Verdant Studio by myself, on my laptop, on my couch and dining room table. About 10 years ago. We're going to have our 10-year birthday this summer and it's been a wild ride. It's been a wild ride, it's been a wild ride. So the first five years were all just kind of organic growth, like really just normal uh doing stuff, and it was just an architecture firm and I was the architect and had some help, um, and then at year five I bought another architecture firm you acquired another acquired company.
Speaker 3:I acquired another firm.
Speaker 1:Wow, it was quite the adventure. We had a major embezzlement. We didn't talk about this beforehand, but we had a major embezzlement, covid. All the things happened in 2020. That was your 2020. Wow, I got an MBA in education in 2020.
Speaker 3:So you're almost an attorney now for yourself.
Speaker 1:For sure, and I've definitely like paid a year's salary of of an attorney.
Speaker 3:No doubt, get it yeah.
Speaker 1:Um and so after after 2020, we made some changes and um, we, we, uh. One of the nice things, one of the silver linings about that whole experience, is we were able to kind of return to our kind of origins and we were able to keep some of our acquired staff, which are fantastic, and still with me and some clients and then so at that point we were about 20 people I'm really big and then over the last couple of years, we've started to be more strategic about things and we're down to about seven.
Speaker 3:Kind of niched down a little bit, you got in your lanes right, basically.
Speaker 1:We're figuring it out. And then, last year I had a baby.
Speaker 3:Uh-oh.
Speaker 1:So that really changed things.
Speaker 3:It does. Yeah, yeah, Babies change things. It did. They're so little, but they change so much. You know they do. They're little and big at the same time.
Speaker 1:Very much, yes, little package.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:Big experience.
Speaker 3:That's right. That's right, man. So the whole acquisition thing, so that was I mean. You were in business for about five years then.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I was, and then you decided to acquire this other company, which is a pretty significant decision, and then you got the joyful experience of integrations.
Speaker 1:Oh boy. Yeah, it was something else.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was something else.
Speaker 3:Would you do it?
Speaker 1:again. Nobody's ever asked me that, oh man, would I do it again?
Speaker 3:that's why I'm such a great interview host, you know. That's why people love me more than Mark of course, obvious, that's obvious.
Speaker 1:Um, I would do it again. I would do it again if it was the right fit in the right timing. Yeah, and the circumstances and stars align.
Speaker 3:So maybe not that specific deal.
Speaker 1:I would never do that deal again Right.
Speaker 3:But you would do another acquisition again, potentially.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would potentially do another acquisition. I would also go the other way. I would sell if it became the right thing. So I'm really open.
Speaker 3:You would become acquired.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would become acquired and loop into something bigger if that made more sense for the future of the firm.
Speaker 3:So for our listeners out there that maybe they have a business or whatever, but they're thinking about an acquisition, what would maybe three top points that you would give?
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, hire a very good accountant and do forensic bookkeeping before you run the acquisition.
Speaker 3:So actually really genuinely do due diligence.
Speaker 1:Yes, and don't just trust their documents, like make sure they open their books and that you have accounting access to them and you have a forensic accountant, not just some, you know not, you're like dad's brother, you know brother or something. Sure, a real forensic CPA and accountant.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's good, that's really good advice.
Speaker 1:Second point Second point would be make sure that your motives are aligned with the motives of the team that you're acquiring and that the culture is the right fit.
Speaker 3:So a cultural value alignment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I I heard recently that in acquisitions, culture is the number one thing that kills deals, um, and and going through a process, um, almost like a strategic planning effort with the new team and and your current team, um leadership. If it's a big acquisition, um, but the whole team. If it's a smaller acquisition, but the whole team. If it's a smaller acquisition, ahead of time how do you?
Speaker 3:how do you do that? How do you do the motives?
Speaker 1:I often hire a third party for that kind of exercise. So somebody who does specifically leadership, training and strategic planning, come in and run some exercises with both both the groups, to make sure that your culture is going to be aligned, got it basically interviewing all the staff members and talk about values and ambitions, talents, capabilities, processes, processes, yeah, third point Third point oh, those were two good ones.
Speaker 3:I know they were really good. I'm going to keep going on points until you're exact. No. Third and final.
Speaker 1:Third point is and I would say most people are not going to deal with this, but this is the lesson that I learned be very aware of the staff, the staff you're bringing on, and if they have uh strategic access to either your processes or your finances, make sure they're fully vetted and insured. Insured. Yeah, so you can buy insurance to help protect you from fraud and other things Okay, got you. Not key people.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:But it's more of a protection insurance for if they are really just not people of integrity.
Speaker 3:Wow so like a risk insurance kind of thing Interesting Is that a specific like acquisitional insurance. No, you can get it at any point in your business, yeah, man, I tell you, speaking of insurance man, it drives me nuts, dude. Like I'm telling you like some of the most challenging things in my business career have been accounting, legal, and now insurance is a close third man. It is so confusing they I mean it's just like it's the greasiest business industry that I can get. I mean you can't get your hands on anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well and when you and when you finally need it yeah, oh, there's always excuses, oh yeah, no, no, no, we don't do that.
Speaker 3:I mean it's, it's insane, it is absolutely insane. You know, nobody likes to, to, to be accountable and own responsibility anymore. You know, it's like a it's a finger pointing nightmare which keeps getting attorneys paid. You know, you know, congratulations, yeah, I know Right. I mean, you know, and it's funny like there's real quick on this. Like I was talking to an attorney about a year ago and I was like hey, what are you going to do when AI takes all your jobs? They're like we're not worried about that and I'm like like how's that? And he's like we'll pass legislation to protect. I'm like that's a, that's a really great point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they will, yeah, they totally will. So, will the architects, by the way.
Speaker 3:Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah Right, congratulations on that too. Right, the rest of us? You know, we're all you know, we're all screaming at that no, we're really not. But the all right. So one thing just tell us real quick, what does your firm do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Verda is an art and architecture firm. One of the lovely things that happened in 2020 is I brought on an artist. His original title was director of visual thinking.
Speaker 1:Now he is director of placemaking, which means that we are able to do much more than like technical architecture. We're not just designing buildings, we're creating places. Okay, and so we bring him in to his background is in architectural scale, sculpture, art, but he does things like art, master planning, wayfinding, creative placemaking is all about creating authenticity and spaces where it doesn't currently exist. So think about locally, think about like 8th Street Market and how there's a layer of kind of rawness and interestingness, and that's because there's so many layers of placemaking.
Speaker 3:Somebody at some point was thinking about this yes. You know, is the ultimate apex of architecture. Is it like to create Zen and Nirvana in a space?
Speaker 1:MapUp's, not my game. Okay, cool, yeah, all right, that's just me. No, and we try to design without ego. What we're trying to do is really give our clients what they need. We're here to serve them, whether that's functionally or financially, timeline, all those things. We're a service industry as much as we are anything else.
Speaker 3:Right, and so I think what the end, anticipation or objective is that, like your clients, patrons, whoever's visiting whatever space, I mean they have an experience, right, there's something that they leave with and it's memorable, subconscious, and all that type of stuff, right? Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Nailed it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I'm an excellent interviewer. Again, I mean I'm just it's amazing. So, hey, we were talking before like kind of what we're going to discuss today, and you know there's one thing that you have a lot of passion in right, and that's women in entrepreneurship, women business leaders, right, and so I think that you know, I really want to dig into that. So what does that mean to you? Uh, for, like, if there's a listener out there that is female, that is looking to get into entrepreneurship, I mean what's you know, tell us a little bit about your experience with that and what this means to you and what's important about that.
Speaker 1:Um, so I'll start with my experience with it. Um, I, I started, I co-founded my first firm when I was 26 years old. I co-founded my first firm when I was 26 years old. I was living in Georgia and I was in a town that didn't have a lot of architects, and so I found another one and he hired me to be just a designer on staff. That lasted six weeks and he's like I think you should be a partner, and so we just did it, we just jumped in together and we we created a firm, the the two of us and, uh, I did it because I didn't know any better.
Speaker 1:Right, like I was totally naive to the amount of risk I was taking yeah and I I honestly didn't even learn the amount of risk I was taking until COVID hit and we were dealing with all those struggles. Really, everything from I guess that was like 2013 until 2020 was a pretty uphill or downhill, I don't know. Positive.
Speaker 4:It was pretty positive.
Speaker 1:And things change. I sold my ownership in that firm. I moved back to northwest arkansas because my family's here, I, um, I was born here and, um, I started brilliant studio because I didn't know any better. Um, I've always owned a firm and my, my parents are entrepreneurs and so they've always just said own, own and own and operate business, even if it's kind of in the background. So you have the tax break and so I kind of I just started it.
Speaker 1:I really wasn't doing much, I was helping with some like bathroom renovations and just really mundane things, and it took off. And so my experience and story is one of not knowing the fear that's involved in that and also not feeling like I had a lot of risk. I was young enough that I didn't need a big paycheck, I didn't have a family to support, I didn't have a mortgage, I rented a small apartment and I had support and I had a support system around me support system around me. I know it would be different today if I was like okay, how are we going to? Like, I contribute financially to the, to our wellbeing and our livelihood as a family? What happens if I don't make any money for six months or a year.
Speaker 1:So what I, what I tell people now is there's a math version, right, there's a math version of saying get your finances in order, save, have six months of your life saved away in case you need it. There's the spreadsheet version. There is then the emotional version of making the decision, and that is do I feel comfortable? Have I done the market research? Do I feel like I have a product or an idea that is market ready and viable? Have I run the tests? I think starting a business is all about running the experiments, and if you're able to do it as a side hustle, depending on what it is, as in the night, and you're making, hopefully as much money as you make in your day job, or close to it, close to it, then you can. You can take the jump and and hopefully, feel comfortable about it. Um, that's that's kind of how I describe entrepreneurship. Now, that's whether you're a man or a woman, it that it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:Right, it's just the reality.
Speaker 1:That's just the reality of starting a business. I, in my opinion, um, the other side of it is if, if you are a mother and or you have a family and you're a female, figuring out how you're going to manage the motherhood piece with the entrepreneurship piece. It is extremely time consuming and you have a lot of support staff under you. You're constantly thinking about your business. You're constantly trying to make changes or run things or put out fires mostly put out fires and so being prepared for creating balance in that is a real challenge.
Speaker 3:So would you say then, like the big difference, I guess, in male and female entrepreneurship in a way, is it is about the motherhood piece, or is there, is there more to it? Is there something before, preliminary, before that? Yeah what's the what's the what's the other part. I mean before we jump into yeah, yeah, good question.
Speaker 1:I think even before you have children and a family there's. It's different for women because, largely because of network, I think, okay so so much of business is built on who you know um, even in today's world yeah and getting in the room, being in the space with the people who are making decisions about money, about financing, about purchasing and cap, like all the.
Speaker 1:All of those decisions are often largely men and they often have a network and and getting in that network requires you to to participate in things that are also largely men. You know, golfing and hunting and fish all those things that are typically male dominated. All those things that are typically male dominated. So learning how to navigate that, those relationships, in a way that is strategic and effective, could be a real challenge as a woman.
Speaker 3:You know, it makes me think like a lot of that has to do, or maybe a good portion of it has to do with, like just the historical makeup of it, right? I mean like, if I mean that's kind of the yeah where where it's happened, because there was obviously many decades, you know centuries, I guess you could even say, if you go back even further to where it was a male dominated industry or just reality yeah right, but you know, mean, I think that obviously there's been a tremendous amount of progress, right, and there's been a lot of champions, and definitely a lot of female champions, that have broke through those networks as reestablished, right.
Speaker 3:Do you think that today, like it's, it's, it's evolved enough, or do we still have a long ways to go, do you? I mean, where do you think that balance is?
Speaker 1:I think we still have some room to go, but I think it's actually going to. I think it's going to solve itself.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:I think, generationally, as our, certainly, as our children, but maybe even as, like, the next generation comes on, I think it's actually going to solve that gender gap even more. There's actually some research recently that we've spent so much energy, uh, impacting the women in our, in our lives, in our country, that our boys are being left behind, and so I think balance is really important. Um, and I don't know that we figured that out as a teacher, yet I know, you know, as a millennial, that my experience has been very gendered and not always in a positive way.
Speaker 1:Okay, my first internship I had when I was in undergraduate school and it was towards the end of my schooling and I had gotten into grad school. I'd gotten into one of the best grad schools in the country. I was super excited about it. I walked in to tell my boss which, by the way, the firm was. I think there were three women in a 30% firm and I was one of them. Yeah, and I walked in to tell my boss about it and, as I was telling him, the owner of the firm heard the conversation and he asked me in this bullpen, you know, set up right, open office, set up. My boss was extremely excited for my, my opportunity to go to grad school.
Speaker 1:The owner of the firm said well, why would you do that? And I said oh, it's going to be incredible. I going to get an incredible education. He goes, but your place is in the kitchen, are? You serious and I had worked for him for three years um, I don't know, I mean that's insane, so yeah I mean those, those things were still happening. Now I've never I haven't had an experience quite that yeah impactful or demeaning since then and it's been 20 years since that happened- yeah.
Speaker 1:But it is so. I think it is getting better.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's perfect.
Speaker 3:Right sure.
Speaker 1:But I don't know that it ever will be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's like we have a, there's a pendulum swing going on. I mean I think it's like the way everything is right. You look at supply chain or whatever you know, I mean Right, everything is right. You look at supply chain or whatever you know. Yeah, right, just for you know recent topics. But I mean like it, you know where does that balance hit? And I mean I think you're right, it's just going to figure itself out.
Speaker 3:But I feel like that, you know, I mean I can testify just as a male, right, I mean there's, you know, my experience is. You know I as a male, right, I mean there's, you know my experiences, you know, I would say that if I went back to when I was much younger, maybe 20 years ago, I think that there was a little bit more clear difference, but today it seems like that it's it's. It has progressed, you know, and and um, you know that's just insane, I can't, I mean I'm having trouble getting past what that dude said. I know it's just like that's like you know, I mean that's insane that that happened in 2000s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right yeah.
Speaker 3:That's craziness.
Speaker 1:It is crazy. But you know, the thing that it did do was it fueled me to never want to work at an office like that, which is why I give him a lot of credit. Honestly, if I saw him on the screen I'd be like, hey, thanks, man. Your very inappropriate behavior fueled me to start my own company because I really wanted to create a culture that valued everybody and gave everyone space to be the person that they wanted to be and support them.
Speaker 3:That's fair man, I like that. And so are there other things like I mean, like that you would think you know. And speaking of the networks too, I think that it's um worth noting. You know there's that there is that male history, but then there's, I think one of the bigger things, or another big thing to this is just the, the, uh, the aristocratic. You know, old money, yeah, scenario and and just, or it can be old money in companies or individuals, those networks that I mean like it's almost impossible for anybody to bust into yeah you know I bump up into that a lot, but but on that side too it's also, I think, that that is evolving quite a bit.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of now, new money in the last 20 years, you know, know, you look at like the, you know the big tech players, like I mean, they bust a lot of busting up in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and they're creating off like VC opportunities and other things, that to fund things that are that would never have been funded 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. I don't really operate. I mean, I I hear about it. I don't operate in that world very much but it is, I think, that kind of the you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours mentality Like we. We do still talk a lot about like the old boys club here in Northwest Arkansas and it it is. It's gotten better.
Speaker 1:even in the last 10, the 10 years I've been back here I've seen it improve greatly and it's not just in like finance and money, because I think that's definitely happening, but even in, like you know, at the city level just trying to get a project permitted, things like that it used to be so much different and now that, because of our growth, they've had to put so much structure in place, and I think that translates to a lot of businesses where you know, you used to walk into the bank and do a handshake deal, and now there's just too much structure in place and so they they can't be as um one-sided as they should be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I mean, and I think that's encouraging. I think that's encouraging for entrepreneurs, new entrepreneurs, I mean, like the there's ways to. You know, like you mentioned the bc right that all that stuff, a lot of that stuff, there's a lot of new financing, new startup, there's new capital opportunities. That I remember whenever I was young trying to get a business going, I didn't even know about them back there, weren't anywhere there. I mean, it wasn't happening anywhere around here. But it feels like that the young startup companies have a little bit more options yeah, you know, and they know about it too.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, you can go hunt for it and you can get meetings and you can learn and really accelerate pretty rapidly if you're digging your heels in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you have a good idea and you're willing to work hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember trying to sit down in a bank when I was like 22, and I was talking to this loan officer at a bank I don't remember who it was or which bank, but it was like the most intimidating thing. They're asking questions I had no idea about and I left there without any kind of option. You know, I just felt like that was it? That one person, that one answer, you know, and it was really discouraging, but, to your point, it fueled me to just do it my daggum self and just go make some sales, and that's really where the money's at.
Speaker 3:The best financing in the world is from clients, for sure, and customers.
Speaker 1:For sure, for sure, if you can make it work that way, the way that I describe going to the bank because we have an operating line of credit and some other things, and every time we have to go through that process, I'm like man, I don't want to get naked again. Because, that's what it feels like. It feels like you're totally exposing yourself every time you have to have a conversation with them. But that is the systems that are also helping it be more fair. Sure.
Speaker 3:So yeah, how do you question that Before we get into motherhood? Is there anything else that, like I mean, you would say that that's a significant topic in regards to female entrepreneurship that you want to communicate to the audience?
Speaker 1:I think more women should do it.
Speaker 1:I think that the emotional side often stops women from taking the plunge and taking the risk. I think, just generally, women tend not to be the risk takers in a relationship or across our culture, and I would just empower more women to do it. Take the risk. The worst thing you can do is fail, and really is it that bad? You're going to have a great story and you're going to be able to leverage that experience into something else that is probably going to push you higher than you were before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's. I mean obviously like, what I love is kind of defining an entrepreneur versus a professional manager or a really highly skilled, experienced person. Huge difference, right. And one of my favorite definitions is that they see a market need and they go to fix that, but then they take a significant personal risk. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know you have to have at least those two components to call yourself an entrepreneur. Now Mark and I get on this soapbox quite a bit. A solopreneur is not necessarily an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs are growing. They're risking Solopreneurs a lot of times, just they're building a job that they put a box around. They have freedom, but they're not trying to grow. They don't want to hire employees, they want to deal with sales tax, they want to deal with all this stuff If they get a big job, which is fine, I'm not knocking a solopreneur.
Speaker 1:We need them all.
Speaker 3:We need them all. Honestly, if I wasn't an entrepreneur, I probably would be a solopreneur, you know, because I don't know that I'm employable anymore.
Speaker 3:You know, but it depends on what the deal is, you know. But you know, I think that when we talk about that, when you bring up that term risk, you know that's a big deal right and I think that there's a very small percentage of just human beings that take an entrepreneurial approach right, that will step into that unknown sea of risk. Um, and you know, and I, and to your point, like I mean, should we have more women that have that, that, that take that step? You know? And then how we, how do you, how would you encourage that, like just as a as a female to a female, I mean, like, like I mean, how would you articulate that it's okay, I understand it's okay and go for it?
Speaker 1:Um, my favorite thing to tell people is if you have an idea and you've put your guardrails in place, just do it. Just do it. If you need to baby step it right, like do it as a side hustle to start it off and then like inchworm your way into it, do it that way. Find a way that works for your lifestyle, but just do it. Figure out what that version is. And if you can just take the plunge and like leave your day job behind and really dig in, that's even better. You'll find that your growth is probably a lot faster if you're able to give it all your energy. There's a statistic out there that actually that women-owned companies, women entrepreneurs, are far more successful than male entrepreneurs and male companies let me tell you something like I mean from, from just a.
Speaker 3:I mean from my experience, like a, a, a woman owned, a woman entrepreneur has. I mean like I, I get like it's pretty intimidating to an extent because they're I mean when they're on something like I mean it's, it's going to get done and it's going to get done with perfection. I mean I have a lot of admiration towards that. I mean, cause there's a lot of things. I just like I feel like I can't multitask very well at all. I can't. I'm not quick with conversations, you know.
Speaker 3:I mean there's a lot of Well you're faking it really well, then I mean, hey, I am Now I'm a really great liar. No, I'm just kidding, no, but I mean, but it's. But they, you know, like my experience has been like I mean, it's, you know, and also there's a lot of accountability for some reason. Like I mean, that's just been a little bit of my experience, but I've met some really incredibly awesome female entrepreneurs. I mean, they bring some grit, that's good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm friends with quite a few female entrepreneurs and we're all just gritty, yeah you, yeah, you're scaring me right now, you know. So let's get into motherhood though, because that's the, that's the. That's one of the things I think that we all can absolutely agree with. There is a difference I think innately humankind you know from a father and a mother you know on, if you're owning a business and I'm a dad, it's going to be different than if you own a business and you're a mom. For sure, right, we can agree with that 100% yes.
Speaker 3:So tell me about motherhood and entrepreneurship, because you actually know this quite well recently, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, seven months ago. Yeah, seven months ago, I became a mom.
Speaker 3:That's awesome, congrats.
Speaker 1:Thank you. And we liked out our babies healthy and sleeps well and eats well and all the things, so she's been an easy baby, comparatively Good. It was a big change for the company, um, and you know I so I only took two weeks off of of real maternity leave and I wouldn't suggest that for anyone necessarily, but it's that's what I needed to do for myself. Um, part of it was just not wanting things to like my tasks to pile up yeah um, and feel like I was going to come back to something that was not manageable.
Speaker 1:And I did. I actually put a lot of piece. I hired people to actually backfill me while I was gone, but I just wanted to kind of stay in the know on it. So I gradually came back over three months of leave and that way just wasn't. It wasn't as stressful that way and that was actually recommended a recommendation of my um OBGYN, who's a female, you know she owns her, her clinic, um, and she said just don't let it don't, don't let it pile up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I just start getting back in the groove, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And she says if there's a way to balance you know, a couple hours a day of taking care of some things, then that will help. Um, so, help you process it. And also, like you've been in this, like like grinded out mindset for years, and then to go from like that to just kind of like I mean, the first three months of a baby's life, they mostly sleep. Yeah, um, that's not that for me, that wasn't the time when I needed to take off work. I, I needed to take off work. You know, a couple of months ago, not not not those first three months yeah um, but um.
Speaker 1:But lots of things change, like physically, your body's way different. You are the lifeblood for your child and they do demand a lot of your time from that perspective and you're recovering from a major physical life event.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I think one thing you said right in the beginning was about preparing the company for your absence, right? You know, I think any business owner can like, I mean, if we really think about it, if I was like, okay, I'm going to be out for three months, two months a month, two weeks, right, whatever it might be, like I mean, if I'm preparing for that, like that's why I don't take vacations, really, yeah, but what if? You did, I know exactly.
Speaker 1:That's what's. That's what's stressful for me to think about that.
Speaker 3:So there's what did you do to prepare? So luckily you know you're pregnant and you got lots of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean there's some clues, Something's coming. You got many months to figure it out.
Speaker 3:One of the primary things I did was I hired some help to come into the company and I trained them on some of my key tasks, and this is well in advance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was like months in advance of delivering, yeah, okay, and that they were able to come in and take over some really primary things, especially the one of my biggest roles is client communication, okay, and just maintaining that relationship relationship, and they were able to do that. For the most part, I will say, you know they'd. Only it wasn't what if I could were to do it different. Let me put it this way if I were to do it different.
Speaker 1:I we knew for several years we were going to try and have a kid. It actually took us a while to have a kid. I would have done that process a couple of years in advance, because just having them done what process? Hiring those that help. Oh, okay, wow because they need time to build relationships with clients to make them feel comfortable. Um, I didn't give them enough time to do do it well, um, and so we actually lost one of our really big clients.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was on leave, yeah it, I mean. I mean honestly, like we all know, right, like relationships are that's it that's, that's, that's it right. And then to you know but? But when you're talking about that, it presents to me like a a financial struggle in a way, because I mean it's hard to like. You're still dependent upon the business yeah right, it's not like you're riding an 80 profit, unless maybe you are and you're just I know I'm not okay, cool, I just clarified that because I was going to say do you have any positions open for partners?
Speaker 3:yeah, but, uh, but you gotta hide, like what you're talking about is adding additional expenses to an burden to company and then doing that for months prior to get acclimated for an extremely significant role. Right or part of the business with relationship management.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's I mean. We're talking about preparing to leave. That's what it takes.
Speaker 1:That is what it takes.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's pretty serious stuff right there yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, my husband is also a high-level, he's an engineer, so he's a high-level person in his company and it wasn't even remotely the same for him, right, like he it didn't, he could check in and out of the business in a way that I couldn't, because he's employed. Because he's employed.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:But he also has the client management role. Okay, but because he wasn't recovering from major surgery. You know, dealing with major body changes and feeding a child and all of those things Like you. Just it's like if you have any kind of major surgery, you need that time in convalescence and he just was able to do it much different than I was, and I think that you know, just kind of circling back to preparing for it, he didn't have to prepare for his absence the way that I had to prepare for my absence.
Speaker 3:Well, the reality of this is like it's. You know, he's obviously busy and has a lot of change going on, right For sure. But I think what you're articulating, that I'm kind of, you know, having a little bit more awareness about, is like he's probably going to feel well and normal yes, exactly, and there's a huge difference with that. Totally, if you get sick or you got the flu or whatever, like you're, you're down like physically, yeah dude, it's hard to do anything right, right.
Speaker 1:And my point in that is that male entrepreneurs are never going to experience unless they have major surgery of some kind. They're really never going to experience that level of physical change. And you know, especially if any mom has any kind of postpartum depression or anxiety or any of those things that just your hormones create, you're just never going to understand that and that's not good or bad, it just is yeah, right um, and so, thinking as a as a woman, as a woman owner, how do you manage?
Speaker 1:just the maternity leave piece is extremely challenging and it does cost a lot of money. Um, but I I don't know that there's any other way to do it unless you and I don't have a partner. If I had a business partner, it would be different.
Speaker 3:No, that's very true. I mean, you know it's man, I tell you, like not to jump onto another topic, but having having a business part, like you experienced that, like you had one in the beginning, now you're rolling solo right. Um, there is a difference in having that person that and it's kind of like a marriage right, like we are, we together are committed. You know, like in a marriage that the bills get paid, kids get taken, you know all this life gets taken care of.
Speaker 3:Same thing in business and being able to lean on somebody and tell them a need or have a different perspective of somebody that's really invested in the outcome and that's dependent, I mean somebody that's really invested in the outcome, totally, totally, and that's dependent. I mean that's a huge deal. And so I always encourage folks like if they ask me, would you do? You know, because I have people come to me that never started a business and they're like, what do you think about partnerships? I mean, should I have a partner? Because they hear the horror stories of getting kicked out. I'm like man, listen, like it's. You know, there's a lot, a lot of benefit to having a partner.
Speaker 1:I agree it actually this whole experience. I've been having conversations about bringing a partner on.
Speaker 3:It brought some additional light to the need right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know, and we've had one kid. If we ever want to have another kid, are we going to? Am I trying to do it the same way? I don't know. Maybe what I've proven to myself is I ran that experiment and it didn't work as well as I thought it would work. Um, and I would just need more time with with any help and but, but is that person come on as a partner and they, you know, does that help solve some of the financial burden and some of the other things? Um, so all of that has come out of this experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know, with a partner as well, like it's, it's, I would say, and tell me if you agree. But it's about having somebody emotionally connected to the business right that you know like part of I can only imagine like but part of you preparing to leave for this business right and you hire people, you got some tactical things taken care of and even if you did it, absolutely perfect and you felt like everything's running its ship, but there's still this emotional burden that you're feeling like there's a fear. There is a fear right that something significant is going to happen or I'm going to lose a significant client, because it's hard to trust anybody that's not very much invested in that business. Like it's the wake up at 4 am worried about it. So you go ahead and get up and you start working before workday starts, because that relationship is so critical. It's hard to pay somebody and have that type of fear. Folks that are employed just don't have that fear.
Speaker 1:They don't, and we don't want them to.
Speaker 3:Right sure.
Speaker 1:They don't make enough money for that.
Speaker 3:No, no, no 100%.
Speaker 1:But having somebody with skin in the game, both financially and the finance piece, often creates the emotional piece. But who's bought into the vision, who's bought into the success and who knows that if they're successful they'll reap a financial reward from that, makes all the difference it does and it's it's hard to you can't replicate it with an employee hardly, I mean occasionally.
Speaker 1:You find like the perfect employee, that's like I'm really bought in and I don't want, I don't want the responsibility of partnership. But I'm going to do all the things, but I don't. I've never had that necessarily happen.
Speaker 3:And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm empathizing a little bit with your preparedness for this, and, but you, even though you did prepare and you did take your two weeks which is not very much at all, but you know but like that, you were still the one carrying the burden of the business, yeah, even even if you weren't actually working that day, right those days.
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Speaker 3:So what else is involved in motherhood? I mean now, okay, so we talked about the event of having the baby and the preparedness beforehand. Yeah, what about coming back? And now you're a mom? Right, you left the business, not necessarily a mom with a baby, but now you're coming back. Is there a difference there?
Speaker 1:I mean Absolutely Okay yeah.
Speaker 3:Stupid question interviewer. No, of course there's a difference there. I mean Absolutely Okay, yeah, stupid question interviewer.
Speaker 1:No, there's, of course there's a difference. Yeah, yeah, the biggest I think the biggest like physical difference is just time. My time is just so different. You know where I used to wake up. So this is. This happened yesterday. I woke up at 5 am.
Speaker 3:Perfect.
Speaker 1:Expecting to get a couple hours of work in before the baby woke up and we had to do all the school routine and all daycare stuff. She woke up at like 5.15. What? What is she thinking? Instead of getting those few hours of work in that I really needed to do to prepare for it, I had a project interview yesterday morning. You know I just took care of my kid, but you know it works out.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1:I was talking to my husband last night. I'm like you know, I could have spent two more hours on it, but would it have been a better interview? No, the interview was great. The team did what I asked them to do. They were totally prepared and ready for it. I spent 30 minutes before the interview thinking about what I was going to say and that's all I really needed. So you do start to realize, like maybe I don't actually need the level of, maybe I don't need to worry about it as much, and some of that comes with just time and having some team behind you to pick up some pieces. If I was a solopreneur, that would have it would have been an absolute catastrophe.
Speaker 1:Actually, I would have just walked in and been like hey, chris, my husband, you have to get up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I've got to go do this thing, so you're now getting up at 5am, even though you were up with her at one.
Speaker 3:It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what you have to do today.
Speaker 1:He is definitely as much a part of the business as I am most days, so the time thing is really different. You know, the evenings there's always a three-hour window where we're just being parents and taking care of the house and being normal humans like everybody else. But then, you know, eight o'clock hits and we're often laptops and trying to get a few things done before the night ends. So your schedule really shifts. I think that's one of the biggest things. You just shift your time to work in different windows. So that's a physical kind of piece of it.
Speaker 1:I think that the emotional piece is you just don't want to Like. I just don't want to spend 80 hours a week grinding it out at the company anymore. I want to spend 40 hours a week strategically doing the things, the high level, high value things I need to be doing. And then I want to spend those other 40 hours with my family.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's fair man.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, and I think that can impact that, that impacts dads too, right, totally, you know. But but is there, like you know, I don't know, man I like, I see in my experience, um, you know, with my wife, particularly like she, she thinks differently as a mom than I do think as a dad, specifically related with the kids, right, you know, um, and, and, and I'll be the first to admit there's, it's, it's another level of where my natural thinking occurs, like I do a lot, I don't do a lot of things cause I'm not thinking like she's thinking, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, have you had that experience at all? Or thinking like she's?
Speaker 1:thinking you know, yeah, I mean, have you had that experience at all? You know, I haven't had it that much, but I've seen it.
Speaker 3:Maybe your husband's just better than me.
Speaker 1:My husband is amazing.
Speaker 3:I mean, he sounds awesome, he gets like all the gold stars.
Speaker 1:He is A lot of days he's just, he's thinking about, like, did we wash the bottles and get the things? Yeah, and he's doing that and but. But I will say I think that's unusual yeah not just because my husband is that way, but the business was my first baby, true, um, and so it's been really hard to kind of, even though my I will always choose my actual baby. My business like no confusion there.
Speaker 1:There there's been a bit of a like emotional transition and it's different. I know that it's just motherhood has been different for me because I had the business.
Speaker 3:You know, and also I think that it sounds like your husband too. He probably supports you a lot with your business.
Speaker 1:He does.
Speaker 3:Right and so it's, you know, having a real baby or a physical baby, a human baby. But you had this baby beforehand and I mean, if he was supportive and engage with you on that and helping in kind of like your you know your partner in a way on that.
Speaker 1:Totally like a silent partner in many ways yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like he probably can pick up on some of the pressure that you're undergoing with this additional human baby that's in the picture.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and is able to help navigate that Absolutely, and you know we really try. He's got an incredible career as well, so we try to support each other in that effort. I would not relate our experience to other partnerships where somebody owns a business, but I would not relate it to anybody who's got two employees. It's just been so different. From that perspective, I've watched some of my team members have children and the women that have babies on my staff. Their relationship to motherhood is completely different than mine. They're doing what your wife does, Right. They're always thinking about their kid. They're, you know, like they're the primary caregiver. They're doing all the things. They're worried about stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They react to things that happen in a much different way than I do. They just think about it differently, and I just want to be clear it's not that they love their baby more than I love my baby. It's just we approach motherhood really differently.
Speaker 3:You know, honestly, Jessica, I don't know if this is. I'm not trying to be a psychologist and I'm not licensed.
Speaker 1:I do love some therapy, I do too. Big fan, big fan.
Speaker 3:I love it too. You know one of my, my big thing I want to have a psychologist on this show you?
Speaker 1:oh, I have one for you, do you yes?
Speaker 3:connect me afterwards, I will. She, she's awesome. Okay, I love it. I love fantastic psychologists, people that help me think in about how I think, but anyway, yeah, but what I was thinking of when you're talking about that, uh, that difference is like maybe it has something to do with the fact that you're actually risk tolerant totally, totally, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I have like, like, my relationship with risk is really unusual, for you know it's, it's the same as every other entrepreneur.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah and so yeah, there we go, I figured it out. You did. I'm a genius, oh my gosh did you just make 700? No, I wish. I mean I need to. Don't wait, let me 700, I'll bill you okay but I mean, but there's something to be said about that, right. Like I mean, you're kind of approaching it's almost like from the way you say like you approach motherhood in a in kind of an entrepreneur, in an entrepreneurial way, in a way yeah, because it's ingrained in me.
Speaker 1:It's yeah it's my process and um, you know, as long as she's breathing, she's fine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right no, absolutely, you know, and it's, um, you know it's. It's really an interesting conversation because I think that there's an awareness you know from just you know like, as a male right, and how I'm thinking about life and life experiences happen. My youngest, uh, whenever I had businesses Right, but it, you know, it didn't like like to me. There was this like I immediately shifted into kind of like this balance mode, like it became you know an additional responsibilities that I had and I just rolled with them and I just figured out and however I do, you know, and and and make those things happen. Uh, but there was not. I did not prepare beforehand. Okay.
Speaker 3:Okay, and and I did not have any sort of like, um, you know, like when the when the baby was was coming and it was going to be delivered, like there wasn't a time period that I felt that I needed to take off to recover.
Speaker 1:Oh man, yeah, that's.
Speaker 3:Is that bad? That's bad. I'm judging you, you should, oh man. Well, now here's the reality, though I was very present and inactivated and involved in all this and helpful, very helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, you know, I mean I did a lot.
Speaker 1:Did you end up taking it off? You just didn't plan for it. Or did you continue to work and you?
Speaker 3:just, I worked in different, different time slots.
Speaker 1:Okay, you adjusted your schedule.
Speaker 3:I adjusted yeah, so I wasn't meaning to communicate, I didn't care or participate in the baby care or participate in the baby.
Speaker 3:No, no, I didn't mean that, but I will tell you like there was not, like no, what it was is, like you know, a week before, two weeks, as they got closer, right Like I was, you know, I was working harder and longer to prepare because I knew that I wouldn't, for whatever time period that I wouldn't have. But I did not prepare like you did, I wasn't thinking forward, I was just rolling and adjusting as it came along and I just worked longer and harder and kind of ridiculously, in no set pattern, right. And then as and I just kind of gauged day by day, so, is mom okay, Baby's okay, okay, then I'm going, okay and I'm close by and I come back and you know, do this.
Speaker 1:And I have to break and that was in the day where you couldn't remote work and yeah, it was before all that, right, yeah, um, would you do it different now?
Speaker 3:I don't think so. No, I mean because I mean, like what happened? Like here's the reality, like I I have a lot of memories of being around my, my daughter, right During those times. Like I mean I was absolutely a hundred percent, you know. Like it, I mean I was, you know, I mean I was the best diaper change in the world and you know, I mean I was like really good, really fast, like I mean always had my stuff together, like there was never a mess.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I was so good at it and I you know, feeding, taking a daycare, you know, as that started happening, like you know, giving baths, I mean I was feet, you know all that stuff, so I mean I wouldn't do. I don't know that I would do it differently, because I do feel like that I was very present and I was helpful. I guess the point is that beforehand I guess I just didn't think about a bigger time span. I don't know, it's kind of weird.
Speaker 1:Well, that doesn't really surprise me. I think that a lot of well. I think women think about it because they know they're going to have to recover 100%. Men don't think about it because it's all. You're just adding something in, and especially if you're already running a business, adding in is nothing. You're so used to just being like okay, I'm just going to have this extra responsibility and I'll just you know, I'll balance it with all the other stuff that I have going on.
Speaker 3:That's what my mentality was, balance it with all the other stuff that I have going on. That's what my mentality was and I think the difference I mean to point out the difference there is that you know I wasn't, you know, personally thinking about me being down.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:In a way right.
Speaker 1:Right and and physically you're, you're not really down, although there's a lot of there's a lot of research now about the impact of having kids on men. And there is a level of postpartum that happens with men as well now, and so you know had you reacted to having a baby differently.
Speaker 1:it might not have worked out as well, right, If you would have been somebody who had been afflicted with some kind of postpartum reaction, of postpartum reaction. So I think in some ways you got lucky, but probably also because you were used to that level of stress and risk and and the kind of putting out fires and navigating between challenges, you were prepared.
Speaker 3:You know that's interesting. Thank you for the psychology lesson. Now we're zeroed out, right, you me? I don't okay I don't know you about the therapy session, but I mean it is. It is interesting, though, as an entrepreneur they're like you. I think that's something to really talk about someday is like the ability to like getting shot with arrows all day and you just kind of duck, dodge, totally get hit and take one out, bleed a little bit yeah, you know, you just kind of go on, and that was definitely my mentality.
Speaker 3:It just it was another aspect in life that was coming in and I just managed it. Yeah, I just flowed with it. Yeah. And I contributed in championing it out, like I try to do with everything that hits me in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what we do. That's what we do, yeah that's what we do. That's what we do. Yeah, it's the joy of being an entrepreneur.
Speaker 3:Jessica, what a great combo. I hope that the audience enjoys your conversation. I hope that they don't throw things at me when they see me out, as you know, as this guy.
Speaker 1:I hope they do, I just think it would be entertaining.
Speaker 3:Well, if they do, I will duck and dodge and navigate that too.
Speaker 1:That's what you do, right.
Speaker 3:We'll definitely want to have you back and, if I can, get Mark to actually work a little bit and show up for the show. It is a challenge, but what a great conversation. I appreciate you coming in Congratulations on the success of your business. If people need to get a hold of you or want to look you up, how do they do that?
Speaker 1:Verdant-studiocom.
Speaker 3:Which how you spell that.
Speaker 1:V-E-R-D-A-N-T V as in Victor.
Speaker 3:The dash mark.
Speaker 1:And then the dash mark, and then studio S-T-U-D-I-O. Okay, singular Dot com. Yes, got it. That was really difficult it was.
Speaker 3:But you know you pull it deep there.
Speaker 1:You got to be clear okay, gotta be clear with folks. You know yes, uh, yeah, that's how, that's the best way to get ahold of me excellent.
Speaker 3:And then you also are, you're involved with women in entrepreneurship. I mean, what's that look like?
Speaker 1:I mean as far as like formally, yeah, so I am uh, I founded the the urban land institute's women leadership initiative here Initiative here locally and highly involved in the Urban Land Institute's growth of that and I'm in all sorts of other women empowerment things as well. But that's the most accessible one here locally and I can join in on those right no, no, you can't. I'm out to. I can join in on those right no.
Speaker 4:No, I'm out, I'm out.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, hey, it's been so good to have you on the show. Let's do it again I love it. And keep going and think a little bit more and do some more dealings before you acquire another company. I will, I will, okay, perfect. This has been another fantastic episode of Big Talk About Small Business. Enjoy having Jessica Hester on the show. We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 1:All right, thank you, eric.
Speaker 4:Thank you Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk About Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, wwwbigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom and click on the ask the host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business and be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes and ask questions about upcoming shows.