Big Talk About Small Business
Hosted by Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Our Mission is to inspire, empower, and equip entrepreneurs with the knowledge and insights they need to succeed in their ventures. Through engaging conversations with industry experts, seasoned entrepreneurs, and thought leaders, we aim to provide valuable strategies, actionable advice, and real-world experiences that will enable our listeners to navigate the challenges, seize the opportunities, and build thriving businesses.
Big Talk About Small Business
Ep. 85 - When to Launch a Business
Thinking of starting a business? Stop waiting for the "perfect moment" because it doesn't exist. That's the core message we tackle head-on in this candid conversation about entrepreneurial timing.
We shatter the myth of first-mover advantage, revealing how second movers often win the game by entering markets where customers already understand their need. Being too early means educating an unaware market, which can be exhausting and expensive. Meanwhile, waiting too long means fighting through a crowded field of established competitors.
One powerful insight we unpack: buying an existing business might be smarter than starting from scratch. Most established businesses suffer from two fixable problems—inefficient processes and poor marketing. With fresh energy and modern approaches like AI implementation, you can transform moderate success into significant profitability without the cold-start customer acquisition struggle.
The conversation takes a philosophical turn as we examine entrepreneurship as a purpose-driven calling rather than merely a financial decision. We share personal reflections on the entrepreneurial mindset—how true entrepreneurs never really "retire" because their drive to create can't be satisfied by leisure alone. This explains why successful founders who experience lucrative exits often launch new ventures instead of riding off into the sunset.
Whether you're contemplating your first business or your fifth, this episode offers practical wisdom about timing, purpose, and the undeniable reality that the best time to start is now. Because tomorrow won't be easier, market conditions won't be perfect, and your preparation will never feel complete. The only question is: are you ready to get nasty and jump in with both feet?
One of the things that I've experienced in business on the startup is I've typically in most often cases, been too early in the business that I started, you know, in which I think that some people may think that that's a you know, if they look at it like oh wow, you're really able to see the future.
Speaker 3:The second mover usually wins the game. Yeah, exactly, that's true. Not the first mover, that's right, Like it's actually I've had a lot of pain. You don't want to be the 29th mover, but you don't want to be the first either. We're back. We're back, baby. Another episode of Big Talk about small business.
Speaker 1:It's 100% organic listeners every time.
Speaker 3:Eric and I have been going at it already here for about 10 minutes.
Speaker 1:Hell, we're going at it every day, man. We're just talking about how we're just grinding.
Speaker 3:We are I mean even though we're, old. Yeah, well, I'm even older than you. You, I mean, you're a lot older than I am. But yeah, I'm, I'm tired, but still you've had a lot of miles put on. You know I've been. If you talk about like work time, you're probably as old as me I don't know man, you know I've.
Speaker 1:I've just been honestly like. I've always tried to stay up with you. Oh God, no, I mean seriously, dude, you're one of the hardest, fastest workers I've ever met in my life, it's insane.
Speaker 3:Well, you are too. I mean you are somebody that just constantly keeps reaching out for more. I mean I think what you're doing right now with Ed Fury is absolutely brilliant. Thanks, man, most people would not do that. They build this company that you did with, you know, white Spider, and go through everything you went through, and then have this great exit and it goes on in a new form and all, and then, you know, you get right back into it. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:It's nasty time.
Speaker 3:With another one that's got huge potential. It does. I mean. It's just you're so brilliant and you brought your former partner back. Yeah, you were lucky to get him, and very lucky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's awesome man. I mean, it's just we have a great team man. I mean, the older I get on this, the more I see the value of team building. You know, getting the right people on the bus in the right seats it takes time, it takes investment, you know. But I mean I feel like that. That company, um, you know, it's just been in existence for a few months, but I can see now the team starting to gel, gel.
Speaker 3:It's a beautiful thing, I mean just being in your office last week, that place, place has a buzz. It's like people are back there working their ass off Getting nasty. I love it.
Speaker 1:Let's get nasty.
Speaker 3:It's so great you see so many small business owners and entrepreneurs out there or want to be entrepreneurs, and they're sitting there right now and they're griping and I mean I've been on that boat too about the tariffs or the uncertainty or the stock market goes down and then consumer confidence drops. All those things are real, but you know what? So what? At some point you got to say those are real, can't do a damn thing about them. Now I'm going to get off my ass and figure out how to be successful anyway.
Speaker 1:It's the same premise as personal life. Right, like I mean, I mean you, you either get at it or get out of the way. Yeah, I mean, and I think that getting into business it's like it's exacerbated that, that entire policy right like that, where you just you have to freaking, get on the bus and go. You can't worry about what you can't control exactly.
Speaker 3:And the other thing is there's always a risk. Yes, okay, I mean, look, you and I both, and you know probably you to a greater extent than me but we still take our money and we put it into things where we don't know if we're going to get it back. Okay, right, but we do it and that's how we get ahead. Other people go oh man, you're lucky, aren't you? Wow, I can't believe it. You're so lucky that you got into that. It's not luck no no. You're willing to take a risk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know we've talked about it a lot of times but that's the definition of an entrepreneur Like this. One big part of it is that you take a personal financial risk Right, that you take a personal financial risk. And that looks like a lot of different ways. If you have money, you put it in, you risk the money or you sacrifice. Yeah, you take your time and you sacrifice making it somewhere else.
Speaker 3:Or you do both, or you do both.
Speaker 1:Or, like in our situation, you're doing all of your money right. It's true, but you have to. I mean, like, and I think that, like you, people want to take banking policies and apply them to entrepreneurship, and it does not work out. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Banks are risk avoiders.
Speaker 1:Their entire business is set up on minimizing risk.
Speaker 3:It has to be. If you look at what banks their margin is so slim I mean the difference in what they pay for the money versus what they lend it out for. Yeah, they have to cover all their overhead, all their people, all their locations, all their software, all their marketing, all their insurance, everything, and then make a profit. They can't afford to make a bad decision.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:I always say that to my students. It's like I'm going to go in there with my business. They don't care about your business plan.
Speaker 1:They want to know have you got assets to secure this with? Do you have other income sources? That's right. If I loan you this money, how can I get paid back in case you fail, like most people will? So I'm minimizing my risk and I think that there's a lot of. That's what I think a big barrier is. With a lot of really smart people, it's almost like the smarter you are, the harder it is to be an entrepreneur, because you have learned to calculate so much.
Speaker 1:You know so much. You know so much like you've been doing this dog market, you've been investing here, you're looking at all this stuff, working with banks, and you're so elevated and smart You're going to the Northwest Arkansas economic outlook all these smart, greatly intelligent, sure. But then you calculate in your brain the amount of risk that it is and if it's worth it. Yeah, and I would say that in anything that I've ever done, had I calculated that, I would have never done anything Exactly.
Speaker 3:I mean, I totally understand A hundred percent. It's so true. You'd be like that's a bad idea. Too much information bombarding you gives you all the reasons not to do something.
Speaker 1:You don't just have to be ignorant enough to do it.
Speaker 3:Ignorance is a good trait.
Speaker 1:I mean at this age, I mean, would I do what I did when I was 22, you know, as an entrepreneur? I mean I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to do it. You know it. Or maybe am I doing it again. It's just even multiplied, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I hear you yeah it's interesting because I'm I'm writing an article right now that I'm delinquent on for this weigler. It's advice to my 30 year old self and one of the things I was thinking is like take 10 of what you make and put it in the stock market. Never touch it. Okay, yeah, I know that's good advice. I know it is. I've tried to do it so many different times when I was young.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But then the reality sets in. It's like oh my God, I got a huge tax bill. Where am I going to get the money for that? I know let's hit the 401k.
Speaker 1:Pay. Know, let's hit the 401k. Pay the 10 penalty. Okay, early withdrawal, pay tax on it, got all this safe tucked away. Then payroll hits. You know like oh, do I lose all my staff or do I keep my little?
Speaker 3:68 000 this week. Where am I gonna get that?
Speaker 1:oh, I know oh yeah, I made a good decision five years ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's time to suck that one out. People don't understand. It's like I always find it interesting when I like talk with I'll have students that go into. You know investment management or wealth management. Okay, there's a lot of them that do that. You know, they all come from Dallas and there's a lot of money there and everything right, yeah. And they're like I, I'm gonna get into wealth management. And who are you gonna target? I'm gonna target entrepreneurs. I'm like wrong people to target. Entrepreneurs are not your target, but your. Your target client should be lawyers, doctors, dentists, people who make a lot of money and know nothing about business. That's right, because entrepreneurs will always put their money in their own business, where they have control over it and they know it. Yeah, there is a.
Speaker 1:I'll look at it. I feel very isolated a lot of times because, you know, if I work with any advisor or bankers or whatever like, there's this tension that I'm always having in every single conversation that I have, Like nothing that they do makes any sense to me whatsoever. You need whole life.
Speaker 3:I'm like why? The last time I bought I did buy one of those policies. And then they're like okay, now we need 20,000 from you this week for it to fund this. You know I'm like 20 grand. What? Why? I don't want to. And any suggestion they make, you know I'm like 20 grand, what why?
Speaker 1:I don't want to, and any suggestion they make, you know, I'm like countering it with like how does that make any sense If? I invest in a company. How do I maintain liquidity in case I need to?
Speaker 3:pay payroll. Exactly, that's my number one question. Plus, what's my return on invested capital in my own business? Right, okay, well, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:It's like, oh well, you'll make. You know, maybe you'll make 5% after inflation and you're like that's terrible.
Speaker 3:It's like my own business. I never make less than 50% a year. I don't know what I've got invested. Yeah, that's right. It's like they don't understand that. Yeah, because they're used to the fact that a lot of businesses fail.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, it's all about securing what you already have, not going for something that you don't have. Going for the brass ring right.
Speaker 3:That's right, and just hope when you get through it. That's right. Yeah, well, today we're supposed to start. We're supposed to talk about how, when's the best time to start a business?
Speaker 1:Now, exactly, okay we're done with that.
Speaker 2:We're done, that's not the episode Don.
Speaker 3:Exactly okay, we're done with that. Don't delay. You want to learn how to do it? Do it okay, jump in baby.
Speaker 1:Both feet. Both feet get nasty. Put everything on the lawn, stress out, wig out, have sleepless nights, work harder than you've ever had before in your life, and just do it yeah, it's.
Speaker 3:You know, I know this is probably this hasn't really been your strategy necessarily in your over your course of your entrepreneurial career, but so you know, I teach a small enterprise management class and I'm just wrapping it up right now my final grades and I read all my final papers turned in by my students which is probably like 75 or 80 students this semester and and they're great. Okay, I love them. Um, but one of the most important things they got out of my class this semester is you don't have to start a business to be an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2:You can go buy a business or you can buy a franchise.
Speaker 3:Okay, and so you know. This idea that is pounded into people's heads that the only way to become an entrepreneur is to do a cold start, I think is fundamentally flawed.
Speaker 1:No, it is Agreed. You know there's a lot of I mean, like it's attractive to me to think about buying an existing business and just improving the processes. Exactly Right now is actually the best time in the world, I'm telling you. All these two wills are getting out. There's no plan. And then there's the whole AI scenario. You can go into about any business that's existing and improve the efficiency. I believe that With using AI, workflows and everything else, just going in there and mapping out and then applying the AI throughout the entire organization every nook and cranny, and you can turn that thing from somewhat profitable to extremely profitable and that's just.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's working on the processes of how they do what they do. The other side of it is pretty much every business that I've ever looked at has shitty marketing, yeah, or does nothing. Yeah, you know, we've talked about that before on the show, but I mean, if you fix the processes and then apply some basic marketing to it, dude, you can blow that puppy up, man. It's so true. I just like taking an existing business because I can see what's there. Yeah, you know, when you start from scratch it's harder, I think, in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the biggest. Well, it's expensive because the cost you can't finance it as easily as you buy Well, and the cost for new customer acquisitions, the most expensive thing you can do in business. I mean it all honestly, it really is. It really is. And if you can buy a business that has a consistent amount of clientele that are coming in the door, that know about you, that are calling because they're, yeah, their faucet's broken and you've been known in the industry there's this as a faucet fixer like look, I know we've talked about word of mouth, but there is. The best form of customer retention is word of mouth and of course it is, but it it takes time to get there, they've got to get there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they've got to try you in the first place. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:But if you have this word of mouth, recurring calls like that's gold man Dude, I just wrote about that in the last issue of this Weigletter. I know you probably haven't read it yet, but it came out on Monday and it's all on referrals. Okay, and so you know why do we give referrals? I get people call me all the time. It's like they want to hire architects or engineers or contractors. Right, I get calls and emails and texts almost every day from somebody and you know I put that article out there and in a 24 hour period, I gave five referrals to one provider and I gave two referrals to another provider and I gave one referral referral each to two other providers. Wow, now why do I give the referrals, is the question.
Speaker 1:Because you trust that. You trust that the contractor will fulfill your valuable reputation, that you're being asked this question and so if they fail on that job, then it's gonna it's gonna hurt your reputation you refer people who return phone calls and emails promptly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, get work done.
Speaker 1:They do what they say.
Speaker 3:They're gonna exactly, it's so simple what they say they're going to. Exactly it's so simple what they say they're going to do. So that gets you the referrals they're they. They understand what a budget is and that it's important to comply. Okay, they don't create problems for you down the road. I mean, there's all these things that are really not that hard to control. That's right In your business that you have to control, that give you the reputation that allows your customers and clients to refer you.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3:But anyway, today we're talking about the best time to start a business. We both agree it's now Right. Okay, don't fool around, do it.
Speaker 1:So Well, this first bullet like let's, let's use whatever what our team gives us right, okay, let's structure yeah, let's do a point. So first question is what's should people wait for the perfect moment versus taking immediate action? And I know we answered that right out of the gate. Yeah, but I want to say something about waiting for the perfect moment. It's the best analogy I have is like saying I'm going to have a kid at the perfect moment. I knew you were going to say that because it came to my mind too, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:It's like there's no perfect moment. You can plan to your freaking 50 on how you're going to be the best parent and the best circumstances, but it doesn't matter. Like it's about the time you know, and, and you, you have the kid and you, just you get on it, man, you, you become a parent, you do what you got to do, you do what you got to do, you're responsible, you move forward. Yes, you know, you are responsible. That's right, that's right. And so I think that you know that perfect moment which kind of comes in that second one about looking for the certain indicators or favorable time to start the business. Right, I mean, there's, you know there is some.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that I've experienced in business on the startup is I've typically, in most often cases, been too early in the business that I started, has been too early in the business that I started, you know, in which I think that some people may think that that's a, you know, if they look at it like oh wow, you're really able to see the future.
Speaker 3:The second mover usually wins the game. Yeah, exactly, not the first mover, that's right, like it's actually I've had a lot of pain. You don't want to be the 29th mover, but you don't want to be the first either.
Speaker 1:I've been through a lot of pain on being ahead, you know, and you know it does work out as long as you can push through. If you succeed, it's going to be a big success. It will be. Yeah, that's the thing, but don't expect that it's going to be an easier ride.
Speaker 3:It's actually a harder ride to be the first mover. Well, the reason is because not only do you have to figure out how to do what you have to do, but you got to convince people they need it. They don't know they need it Exactly. Okay, the second mover. It's like okay, the market's already established. I know that they need it. Now we need them to select us.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 3:But the first mover has got to convince them that they have a need in the first place.
Speaker 1:That's a different game and you've got to own the hell out of it. Once you get a job you have to push, and push and push and make sure that you stay in front of that. So there's some advantage in the sense of where you can get some of the folks to work with you first. But basically what I've seen is that I just breed competition by doing that. Yes, basically what I've seen is that I just breed competition by doing that. Yes, you know right, when you launch you've got a lot of doubters and naysayers. You know not only clientele, but you've got your competitors out there like. You know that don't believe in. You think it's going to do anything, but when you start getting the jobs, they start getting jealous and most of the people that are watching what you're doing, if it's innovative, are bigger companies that have bigger funds that can kind of come at and they have existing clientele where they can add a little, adding your service on top of what they already do is an easy.
Speaker 3:They've already got the distribution channels yeah, they're selling stuff to your target clients. Already exactly you got these relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got it and so, and so that's a that's a huge threat. Yes, you know, and uh, and, but I mean the thing is is like you, and then you have this period of where they come in. They try to interrupt that, but then there's a cycle of coming back to you because they are not able to fulfill with what you can, but they land, grab it and they that could cost six months to a year, year and a half worth of this cycle, to where they. They basically have caused this massive distraction between you and your client originally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you have always been in these things where you're trying to create something all new. Yes, okay, I mean, and that you're going for the home run, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The other startup, if we want to call it that, or new business when you start is you are one of thousands of existing providers. Okay, right, the potential may seem like it's not as great. It may not be as great as the first mover, new creator, right, but the risk is a lot lower because the market already knows it needs, like, trash collection or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and trash is a great industry to get in. So so you, just you know, all you got to do is figure out how you're going to do your trash collection a little bit better. Like what do our containers look better when they sit out in front of somebody's house?
Speaker 1:Which could be a big deal for people that are.
Speaker 3:In a really nice neighborhood, heck, yeah, like where you live right now. I mean, I don't know how the trash gets collected over there at Shadow Valley. You stick your trash out on this tree. Yeah, yeah, do you have like recycling bins? Yeah, is that a separate? No, it's a separate. Another rolling container.
Speaker 1:It's another rolling container. Okay, well, that looks better. Yeah, it looks better than.
Speaker 3:In Fayetteville. So you know, I got to put my trash out. So just last night I put my trash out. All right, I got two rolling containers for trash. Then I have two bins with lids for my two types of recycling. Yeah, then I had all my leaf bags and stuff like that that are paper. Yeah, they've been sitting out in the rain. Yeah, I see. So I put all that crap out in front of my house.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Looks like hell. When I get back from this podcast recording session this morning, I will be picking up crap out of my front yard. My recycling bins will be tossed out there, the lids will be tossed out there. One of my trash cans might be falling over in the street. The leaf bag where it broke is going to leave stuff all over the curb. It's going to look like hell. The curb, yeah, it's going to look like hell. So if somebody has a solution to that and for nice neighborhoods, they might they might win a business, yeah it's just one example.
Speaker 3:Sorry to get distracted on you with that, but but anyway, there is a difference in a startup in an established market, where they know they need you and all you're doing is tweaking things a little bit, versus these. Invention is something new, kind of businesses that you've been known to do, which this one we're in right now is an invention yeah, the podcast videos? Yeah, really yeah who does that? Well, create this all these different studios here and all the production capabilities and everything that you have to make it completely turnkey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's been the same story. I mean a lot of innovate, a lot of inspiration, education towards clientele, but it's starting to turn, you know. I mean which probably shouldn't say that because now everybody's going to start jumping in, you know a little bit, and trying to mimic, but that's okay, let them come Well you've got the capital investment.
Speaker 3:I mean, the average person starting a business like this isn't going to be able to do what you do. I got the crazy Mark. They would not invest in this studio and this technology that you have put in place here and already refined your technology, One of the most invigorating things, though, is when you see somebody trying to freaking.
Speaker 1:Take a little bit of what you got.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know I used to hate all energy. I used to hate all competitors. I don't necessarily feel like that anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't either.
Speaker 3:Really I don't hate it, but I love the, I love the, I love the less sport them though, yeah, it's a bloodsport, because I think you know in reality it doesn't have to be, that it's not a zero-sum game. The market size is not fixed. Yes, that's where the flaw is in that thinking, yeah, that the market's X and you're going to get point something of X and they're going to get point something of X. Right, just not like that. No, it's not. You could expand the whole market.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of room to play right.
Speaker 3:Yes, there is, everybody can have a piece.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it actually. It's good though, I mean because it makes you kind of get out of any kind of complacency and a lot of the complacency has to do with the team, right, but I mean, if they can feel people biting at their heels, I mean it motivates you. Yeah, bit extra. Everything's about the extra right.
Speaker 3:so do you? I mean, do you when you start a business, how much do you really look at the competition out there and go, I don't, I don't gotta do this because the competition's doing this. What I mean?
Speaker 1:I don't know that I do that in any like normal process? No, no, not at all like I will. I really don't look at competition because a lot of times the things that I'm doing personally don't really have competition to begin with. Right, because you're inventing something new, yeah, yeah, I look for I see a gap in the industry, you know, in the market, and I go after that gap. Then I do start looking at people that are somewhat adjacent to whatever I'm doing and seeing if and kind of watch, if they're trying to get their toes in or how much they've gone into it, and a lot of times I mean they're not very far into it and so I kind of just push them to the side a little bit. But I don't do any kind of massive competitive analysis.
Speaker 3:I didn't do it either. To be honest, Never really did. Not to say I don't know what's out there. I'm curious.
Speaker 1:But I mean you can, you can do some quick five minute research and kind of get what you need to know. You know, I mean I do watch. If I see somebody come out with something that's that's kind of impeding, then you know, then you need to make a counterattack. But it's a lot of it's it's like boxing, right.
Speaker 3:I mean they're you, you know you're getting click jabs and you punch back and you just move on. What what I find is like? So if I've got a business that serves a whole lot of small customers, that's a lot harder for somebody to come into and compete with me on. If I've got like one mega customer, yeah, then the big guys they love that. Okay, because they're already doing business with the mega customer, their whole business orientation. We don't want those little. If they can't pay us X million dollars a year, we have no interest in them okay.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep, so they don't fool around with me. If I've got this business, that's got a lot of little clients. Yeah, we're talking business to business clients.
Speaker 1:And a lot of times I find that favorable. I like that yeah, I do too because the more, the higher quantity of customers you have, the safer you really are. Exactly, you're actually protecting yourself.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because if you lose 10%, you're okay, Yep, but if you lose one client and you have five big clients, I mean it's kind of the. I see that a lot in the ads. It's client concentration risk it devalues the business. Yeah, risk it devalues the business, yeah you lose an account, you have to lay off 20 of your staff. You know, I mean, that's not a yeah and you're living in that vulnerability the entire time, which makes you a a puppet yeah, to the client, my oldest brother, you know.
Speaker 3:He came out of the ad agency business at a big level and like they had like one automaker client that paid him either one or two billion dollars a year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gosh, if you lose that you're screwed and anybody in that organization that has a problem with you.
Speaker 3:Any day of the week it's stressful I'm sure their competitors were just like aiming at them like crazy trying to get that a piece of that. Yeah, but uh, yeah. So if you start a business and you serve a lot of small clients, you're in a better position to fend off competitors. Right, we agree on that. So what do you think about, like, what's? How important is the the legal and financial thinking that goes into a startup in your opinion?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean it's absolutely critical, I mean as far as the point of them. But I think that as far as if you're looking at starting a business, I mean you could, that's where you can kind of fall in this trap of just where you never get anything going Because you could spend the rest of your life digging into the financial pro forma and analysis.
Speaker 3:I mean like yeah, I don't have six months of free cash to survive with no income, Right? That kind of stuff that they teach in school, sometimes Like nobody does that, no one has that.
Speaker 1:You'll have analysis, paralysis, yeah, so that's true, yeah, and so I think that you have to do some diligence on that. I mean, obviously, um, but I think that it's it's more about having an instinctual gut that you know it's, you know, are there, is the risk worth the reward, basically, and you just kind of got to go for it. Um, you know, and, and then um, because a lot of times it's more about are you on the phone making calls and are you building a business than it is looking at finances and financials and legalities all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know about you, but I always feel like and not to say I always do, but yes, I probably always do do is if I know, if I do the work that's required, the results are going to come 100. I never feel like, when you really come down to it now, do I always feel like doing the work? No, I don't. I'll be honest with you. Sometimes I'm tired or I'm not that interested in it at that point in time. I've been distracted by other opportunities or whatever. But I honestly in my gut, I know if I do the work that I have to do and I'm supposed to do, that business is going to make it. Yeah, yeah, don't you feel like that? Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. It's like you know, like and I think to your point, you know, like you don't always feel on, I think to your point you don't always feel on. You shouldn't feel bad for feeling bad, or for feeling tired or whatever it might be, or overwhelmed or whatever it is.
Speaker 3:I guess some people turn to drugs and booze during those times.
Speaker 2:That was never my tendency.
Speaker 3:I'm going to get through that. It's not going to last forever, I guess, is what?
Speaker 1:I'm saying, yeah, it doesn't. It's been amazing, like I think, when I look at the journey, like there's been some high, there's been a lot of. I think there's a high quantity of stressful moments, right that they're kind of acute, they come in quickly and intensely. But if you can just but that's why you need to know how to go get your head to head right, like, and sometimes you have to stop and just go out and do what you need to do right, go mow the yard, do something yes, exactly, get your head out of it. But a lot of times, like you, it just kind of happens and for the most part, things work out for the better, the people that have good intentions yeah, exactly if you're, I agree, there's a hundred percent there's a different level of stress.
Speaker 1:Imagine if you're unethical or you're cheating or you're whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because there's these things that could come out there and crush you.
Speaker 1:Yes, in the future, yeah, that yeah, and you can easily get you. I mean, it's just like anything else you can get into a gambling habit like it starts out kind of fun. But I'm sure that you that's true too you would.
Speaker 3:But over time.
Speaker 1:As the entrepreneur, you're like a gambler you are a certain level you are, and like I don't think you're doing anything stupid, though, or risk that you can't yeah, take but yeah, but I mean, like, if it is true, if you, you can get yourself in a pattern real quick, you know, and we've seen it happen to people like, I mean, even top executives, you know, I mean that they can get into a behavior or pattern that was going to be a one time thing and the next thing, you know, they're just built this thing around them and then they're in this jeopardy, you know, and where they can lose it all it's.
Speaker 3:It's interesting. You know, even watching that show I don't know what it's, on what channel or anything, but my wife has it about these famous chefs. Yeah, have you seen that show?
Speaker 1:yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, it's great. What I love about it where they just focus on one at a time and they get into their whole story. What I love about it I love any business that combines business with creativity. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3:And art you know where I take my art and I turn it into a business. The cooking that they do is art, yeah, okay, oh, yeah, for sure, but they make it a business. But my point of all this is it's funny you say that, love, these people are all obsessed and they all tend to over commit and over expand. Yep, it's like they wake up one day and I got 47 restaurants, okay, and then the whole thing crashes down at me. It's just like you're saying, it's like compulsive pushers and gamblers. You can take this thing too far, to where you can't manage it, yeah, and you can't manage the risk, yeah.
Speaker 1:And a lot of, but you know, it kind of backs up to you know what is your character as a person, Because I mean, like yourself, myself and the people that I do business with are really great people trying to do really great things, and they're putting themselves on the line, they back up what they say they're going to do yeah, we're not trying to do anything that like exploits our customers.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, yeah, yeah, and we're not at it for the money, right right, we're trying to just. We're in it to do what we do. Yes, you have a purpose in what you're doing, not you're just trying to make money and be flashy and narcissism. Basically, it's all about you, it's about everyone that's in your team and I think that if you're in that realm, then you will have struggles and bad things, but most of the times, that energy or that karma business karma Boy, you're so right about it.
Speaker 3:You're so much more philosophical than I ever realized. Thanks, Mark. I appreciate that I can see Every day I get more respect for you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that, but there's been a hundred times that I can look back and see that like at wit's end about something. But then things start turning. There's people that come to help.
Speaker 3:Exactly Because of your good intentions and the good things that you've tried to do, people respect that. Yeah, they want to help man.
Speaker 1:They want to support you. That's so true, it really is. And business karma is a real deal, man. Oh my God, like I've seen it. I've seen it, I've seen it in its worst and best. You've only got one reputation.
Speaker 3:You do, I swear.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you destroy that, you may never recover. And that energy, that negative, dark cloud energy, follows people viciously. And so I think that you have to kind of trust the invisible, the intangible and all this business stuff. And that's part of the problem of being really smart. You feel like that it's logical, you feel like that everything's reasonable and you can plan to your wits end before you start a business.
Speaker 1:But the problem happens whenever you sold a job, you put the line of credit on there so you can cover the cash, but then all of a sudden the client just doesn't pay at the right time. Now you've got a problem right, and then the next week they don't pay. And so how do you handle those things? In most cases, if you're paying your bills to your vendors and you're working and you're respecting that and you're respecting the flow of business, when you have a bad apple in there, like things just seem to kind of work out for the people that are doing the good Right, but the bad apples, they start crashing because they don't pay their vendors but they also don't get paid, and then this karma, this energy, is negative, you know. And so I think that you know, you, you, you can't analyze it so much.
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Speaker 3:It's funny you talk about paying vendors, because I just had this discussion recently with a company that we're involved with and my goal with my businesses was always to be the fastest payer. Yeah, does it help my cash flow if I string everybody out? Oh, yeah, sure it helps my cash flow. The vendors are basically financing my business. Do I get people to jump when they need to jump? Do they do me favors when I need a favor? No, okay. So my strategy is the opposite of a lot of people. I want to be the fastest payer there is in the construction business. That was always my thing. Yep, give me a bill today, I'll pay you today. Yeah, okay, instantly. Then they jump, then they want to help me.
Speaker 1:A lot of people, when they're starting up a business, they look at how big companies and big corporations exactly. It's not the same same game, bro. Yes, like you cannot implement what big corporations in your small business. Like. It's the same principle of somebody saying you know, I've met a few of them, right, they're creative artists or whatever, and they want to charge 150 an hour. Yeah, but they have no other clients, right, but they want to charge $150 an hour. But they have no other clients, right, but they want to charge you $150 because that's what other big agencies are doing. Yeah, so you're trying to level up your small little business into a big frame and play this big frame game.
Speaker 3:You've got to work your way up, yes, but you have no freaking overhead.
Speaker 1:You've got to work your way up. I'm going to take business at $3 an hour. I went through a long time making less than minimum wage. Man, you know what I'm saying. But it paid out and then you calculate it back in, gives you a chance to demonstrate is what you're saying. It does man Like you can't apply big business prices, builder relationships, to a really small business and that's a big fail. Amen, and that's a big problem with folks that have been working in corporate land. I mean this kind of comes down to this topic of when do you start at the best time. They're so smart, so well-trained and so analytical. They try to apply these big principles and organizations with people and support systems and resources that they have.
Speaker 3:The small business does not have that. No, you just don't do it. I've been on boards of directors of privately held companies where there'll be another outside director that comes in from, like that, from one of those organizations. I've been 30 years at abc megacorp, okay, and then every meeting, whatever issue comes up, it's like, well, at abc megacorp we did yada, yada, yada yada. And like at some point I feel like saying, would you just shut up, we don't care about abc megacorp. Yeah, it's not abc megacorp. Okay, stop telling us what they did at abc megacorp. Okay, we're not that, we're a 20 million million company. They do $200 billion or whatever they do.
Speaker 3:It's irrelevant, whole different animal.
Speaker 1:It's so true what you're saying. You got to, and I think that you got to reach and it's another thing too to start a business and that business starts growing. Now you're in a different position Second phase growth second stage growth in a business is not the same as a startup.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know, know. And then when you start up, people say that all the time, and then they go well, now I need to have professional management. Okay, there is some truth to that. But where it fails is when they go now I need professional management, I don't need the entrepreneur, no, okay, I've seen that a million times too. And then it just flattens out and dies.
Speaker 1:That's right, because I think that big companies don't understand, you know, like everybody has to relate of where that company is at at that moment and then make the decisions based on where that company is at that moment. If you have a big company buys a small company and they're over here playing in big land, they don't understand that that smaller area has there's some value that it has that's not even relative to what they're doing on the big side, yeah, and so they can make decisions that crush, yeah, and that destroy this, this karma that this business might have oh, they do that all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's, that's the culture or whatever that they ruin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then I don't think it's ever intentional it's right, it's, but it's the same thing as a small business starting up Like there's some big business, like you have to be able to be flexible as to where that company is at a certain stage and know what to do with it Then not trying to apply things that are outside of a different room.
Speaker 3:That's what I hate about these books, like good to great. I'm sorry, but I mean, even though there's a lot of sense in it, I don't care what they did at Megacorp. Yeah, you know, here's the, the practices that they have in my small privately held company. It just may not be relevant at all.
Speaker 1:yeah, you know, and it's the same principle if, like you and I got hired and worked at Walmart in an executive role I mean like it we cannot come in there now with our mentality. There's a whole different level of in different play playing field than what I'm used to, you know, unless we're hard to do exactly that to be a disruptor crusher I was.
Speaker 3:it's funny you say that because we all went through these battery of psychological tests in 1985 when I went to work for one company and and was at the higher management level and they basically said I was unemployable, okay, that I wouldn't stay there long, which I didn't, at least there, I was only there three years, still became my biggest client, though over time. Anyway, yeah, but it's so true. I mean, like I hate that term executive applied to like even my title at the U of A at one point was executive in residence and I said I don't like that title, I'm not an executive. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Never will be.
Speaker 3:You're a dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you put that dog in residence.
Speaker 3:I'm an entrepreneur. There's a difference there and I'm glad you brought that up, because when it comes time to start a business, executives may not have what it takes. They'd probably be better served if they want to make that adjustment to get out of corporate America then go to work in the industry that they want to work in in a company and just get paid. Yeah, okay, be there for two or three years, find out how the little company's doing it, then go do their own thing. That adjustment period may really change their thinking about how they're going to do things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say too, like the right time to start a business. You need to know what kind of business you're going into. Your point, right, do you buy an existing one, that one, that one has a different plan, a different timing of what? Maybe a totally different industry? Yeah, yeah, but I mean like it's like if I was to buy a business, like there is a timing factor that's different than me to start something that's brand new, oh yeah, there is. To something that's different.
Speaker 1:If you're going to start a software and you know some sort of or it's your domain, yeah, I mean, like that's a different type of business that you need. Your timing is different. Like, yeah, a lot of times that is a race. You know it's a freaking race, but it requires more capital, more time to get revenue in, versus you buy a business like it could be more impacted by a little bit more macro events. Is it the right time to get into the plumbing business? Yeah, you know, but some of them don't really matter, like plumbing or trash, right where you always are going to have that need.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the time is more about your own personal life yeah, you know and and how to calculate.
Speaker 1:That is so. There's so much variety to it.
Speaker 3:Well, let's I mean one. I'm glad you brought that up, though the personal life issue is a big issue. Yeah, you got to have the spouse We've talked about this before who understands the difference when you own a business versus having a job.
Speaker 1:That is probably your biggest timing factor. That's the biggest. In all honesty, it really is especially if you're old as hell, like we are. Yeah, and you're married, right? Yeah, like you know the what my wife would say if I was to start a new business. Like she's actually cut me off. Yeah, I'll start another business. No, I get it I totally get it just like the other day.
Speaker 3:It's just like okay, we need money in this business, here we go, boom. You know, it's like my wife. Okay, we need money in this business, here we go, boom. You know, it's like my wife's like I want to go to Italy. I'm like Italy, we're not doing that now. Okay, I'll just spend 10 times that on something else, but yeah, we're not doing that right now. I mean, you know what I mean though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you play this out, though, like, let's say, that you are a top-level executive or senior manager at a big corporation and you have this desire to start up a business, and you're married and you've got kids right.
Speaker 3:You're used to bringing home $482,000 a year, and then you get a bonus at the end of the year for $200,000, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and talk about being philosophical, right, yeah, and I mean here's and talk about being philosophical, like if I was in that situation and I went to approach my wife, like the thing is, is that you, you know, assuming that you're a guy, you know, or whatever uh, you know, I'm sure it'd be different, you know potentially, but I mean, like anybody, that, like you, you have to go with that ambition. Is that this is your purpose? Like you have a purpose? Yeah, it's starting this business. This is not about finances. This is your purpose. Like you have a purpose in starting this business. This is not about finances, this is about your purpose. You see a need you've got to fill that need. It's driving you freaking nuts.
Speaker 3:Thank God my wife truly understands that. Yeah, it's a big big deal. Number three, though I will point that out again you want business advice? Take it from me. You want marital advice? You can either think I don't know anything at all, or maybe you know a lot. Yeah, but wife number three, she doesn't question that. I mean, if she does, it lasts about one second, yeah, and then she's done with it.
Speaker 1:And so your spouse has to believe that it's your purpose and they support that purpose and it's not about you know. And then your job of that purpose is you have to know that, like you have to provide, you know you have to continue, you still have to do. Yeah, you got to do your shit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you can't sit around, you're not daydreaming. Yeah Well, you got to earn credibility too. A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:I paydays or whatever. Then they have a little bit more respect. Yeah, and then if you're leaving this trust, if you're leaving this kind of comfortable, you know, environment.
Speaker 1:You're going to dive into the unknown deep abyss of the ocean. Yeah, and that's a lot of times why people decide not to do it and maybe they rapidly shouldn't. Yeah, but you, if you believe it's a market fit that you're going to go after it and you're about to leave this. You know this secure situation, but it's your purpose and you can't help but doing it and your spouse is supporting that. Then you jump in. But if you jump in, like you, you need to know that you're the one rolling that boat man and so, like it's your responsibility to get back out of it as fast as possible. If you have to, yeah, but then if you get back out of it, you're not freaking depressed and holding your head down. You're back in the grind, baby, and you're getting back into your purpose again real quick.
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean, that's so true. But you know, if you think about it, let's say either of us had like a big exit from a company or whatever and we got enough money that if we were really and lived with any kind of reasonableness, we'd never have to work again, okay. So you know we could say, well, you know we could have done that or we should have done that, or whatever. But then think what your life would really be like. Let's say you had no businesses at all, okay. And now you get up every day. You got somebody out there cutting your grass for you and somebody out there maintaining your pool and somebody out there cleaning your grass for you and somebody out there maintaining your pool and somebody out there cleaning your house, all right, and you take your car to the car wash and they clean it and they vacuum it and they clean your windows and everything, because you go to the good car wash. Yeah, what do you do with your life? I mean, where are we going to go out to eat tonight, honey? I don't know.
Speaker 3:Uh, dude, okay, I'll be vulnerable for should we go to our house in florida and sit there for two weeks and do nothing and think about where we're going to go out to eat in florida?
Speaker 1:being vulnerable. Like there was a situation that I had where I didn't have to work as hard. Sure, you know I could take that time, but I was. I got it only took me about two weeks to recognize how confused I got real quick. Like I like it's.
Speaker 1:That was not a fun feeling, you know, because you've, if you're are an entrepreneur, you're living by purpose. Yep, right, at least that's how I think. And so if you take that away and you and now you don't have a purpose and you're sitting and, yeah, you might have a lot of free time, yeah, but just because your spouse or whoever your family's purpose is different than yours, doesn't mean you can fit into that mold. Like you cannot do that, like you, and so it's like death, it is. It's like death is gonna set in soon, it is. It's depressing really fast, you know, and I've depressing really fast, you know, and I've seen a lot of entrepreneurs very respectfully in our area, you know. I mean like nick dozier is a good example of of how he lives on his purpose, right, I mean like he has a good exit but then he's back in the ground because that's what he's supposed to do. Yeah, and knowing why you're alive and what you're doing, baby, I mean, that's a, that's, that's the gift of life, that's what you're doing, man?
Speaker 3:God, you've gotten philosophical, as she calls her. I just had no idea. Okay, I mean, you're always a lot of fun to work with and we have a lot of laughs, but I just didn't know. You were saying you're deep, you're like Jack Handy Deep philosophy, deep thoughts.
Speaker 1:You should look at my life book sometimes Deep thoughts, with eric howerton. Introspection's a big deal because you are on an island. Yeah, like it's hard to like, that's what, but that's why I really enjoy the show. Well is that we can, that I'm able to talk with somebody that kind of understands a little bit what goes in these brain cells.
Speaker 3:You're on an island and soon, though, we're going to have a coach coming on our show, and I know coaches are supposed to take you off that island. To a certain extent, a lot of people believe in coaches. I mean, we just had that discussion in a board meeting you and I were both in. The coach can be critical. I'm skeptical, but some people think it's great, yeah and it can be helpful, right, I mean sometimes you need, you need somebody to talk to you as your coach.
Speaker 1:You need someone to talk, somebody to talk to I mean you talk about, uh, being vulnerable.
Speaker 3:I mean there was a time in my life I went to go see somebody to talk to, but he died and I never went back. It was kind of nice, though, just cathartic.
Speaker 4:Just sit there and say yeah, he's got a lesson.
Speaker 3:Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. What do you feel about that? Okay, and then he died on me, and that was the end of that.
Speaker 2:I. What do you feel about that? Okay, and then he died on me and that was the end of that.
Speaker 3:I never went back. It's terrible to say he was a great guy it was really sudden and I considered him a friend, yeah, but anyway, well, we got to wrap it up.
Speaker 1:We flew through this one man. So I guess, again, the answer, answer, when's the best time? Is now, yep, to our point in the very beginning. I mean, if you see the market need you better jump on it. I mean because there's, it's not like it's going to get somebody's going to do it. Here's the big thing. It's never going to get easier. Yeah, right, yep, like so. You might as well, you might as well, get in there and get nasty with it yeah, I mean, I mean, I do agree with that, truthfully.
Speaker 3:I will say, though if there's things you could do to reduce your overhead, get your debt paid down, have as much available credit if you need it, those things will help you. Yeah, okay, yeah, for sure, I mean, there's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1:I mean, sometimes I look back and go. I wish I would have sat around and read for a few months and really plan something out. Yeah, man, at the same time, though again it's like my mentality there is no such thing as a bad meeting. There's no such thing as bad marketing. It always helps, it's always beneficial. There is a such thing as speed and acceleration so you just jump in, you make the decision, you get going. And acceleration so you just jump in, you make the decision, you get going. And there's a huge thing called FOMO. Yeah, what's that? Fear of missing out? Oh yeah, you know, and that usually creates a, creates a market for you. So, like, sometimes it's just good to jump in, sometimes it's good to plan a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no question about it. All right, well, this has been a fun episode. Yeah, as always, we encourage people to like and subscribe, like and subscribe. Yeah, big talk about smallbusinesscom. Yeah, we're on every streaming platform that you can imagine, as far as I know and and send in your questions.
Speaker 1:We get questions this is part of one of the questions too from a listener. Yeah, you know, we love, we love answering these.
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Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:But we don't care In the meantime. So anyway, until next week. This has been another episode of big Talk about Small. Business and Entrepreneurship.
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