Big Talk About Small Business
Hosted by Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Our Mission is to inspire, empower, and equip entrepreneurs with the knowledge and insights they need to succeed in their ventures. Through engaging conversations with industry experts, seasoned entrepreneurs, and thought leaders, we aim to provide valuable strategies, actionable advice, and real-world experiences that will enable our listeners to navigate the challenges, seize the opportunities, and build thriving businesses.
Big Talk About Small Business
Ep. 90 - Coaching vs. Consulting: What Founders Really Need
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Have you ever felt completely alone in your business struggles with nowhere to turn? That suffocating feeling where you can't share your fears with your spouse without alarming them, can't reveal vulnerabilities to employees who need confidence in your leadership, and hesitate to approach mentors fearing judgment?
In this illuminating conversation with Ben Cashion, CEO coach and strategist, we dive deep into the hidden psychological burdens of entrepreneurship and how the right outside perspective can be transformative. Ben brings a uniquely powerful combination to his coaching practice: extensive experience across four startups and scaling companies, plus seven years as a licensed professional counselor conducting over 5,000 hours of therapy sessions.
We explore the dangerous terrain of business partnerships. He identifies the two primary partnership killers that every business owner should watch for: disengagement and vision drift. These insidious problems can slowly tear apart even the most promising business relationships, sometimes with consequences more devastating than personal divorces.
The discussion takes a fascinating turn when we examine what makes an effective coach versus a consultant, and how quality coaching delivers four essential elements: "useful strategy, outside perspective, measured accountability, and energizing hope." Ben pulls no punches about the coaching industry itself, acknowledging that many who hang out a coaching shingle lack the necessary experience and training to deliver meaningful results.
For small business owners contemplating their future, Ben offers profound wisdom on whether it's truly possible to build a business that remains small yet highly profitable over decades. His insights on intentional business design, including a surprising "catch and release talent strategy," challenge conventional thinking about growth and retention.
Whether you're considering taking the entrepreneurial leap, struggling with partnership challenges, or feeling the weight of leadership isolation, this conversation delivers both practical strategies and the comforting reminder that you're not alone on this journey.
Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!
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Partnership Perils and Pitfalls
Speaker 1I mean . A lot of times two people get together because they are like each other , which makes for the worst kinds of partners . You know you need to have different skills and orientation typically to work well together , so you're not in each other's territory .
Speaker 3Well , let's just be honest . When you're sitting at the beginning and the risk is through the roof , it feels nice to have somebody else in the boat . Sure , I guess . It's comforting to go . If this thing sinks , he or she's sinking too , and I'm not alone .
Speaker 1All right , we better get started . Let's do this . We don't want to waste any time of our listeners . And today , here in the studio , eric and I have a guest , and that's ben cash . And how's it going , ben ?
Speaker 3it's going great . I'm excited to be here , uh and uh excited to be on the show with you guys we're glad you're here .
Speaker 1Hopefully you'll feel the same way when it's over no , we'll see , we'll see .
Speaker 3I'm a little nervous after the pregame , so here we go as you should be .
Speaker 1Yeah , uh , now being yeah , being nervous and paranoid keeps you out of trouble .
Speaker 4That's right . We always give ourselves at least 45 minutes to see if we ruin a relationship .
Speaker 1Yeah , there you go . That's good , that's good , we enjoy it . But no , we're glad you're here and this is another episode of Big Talk .
Speaker 4Small Business , and so at the end end , then you have to join us for the couch roll .
Speaker 1Yeah it's , I can do this . Okay , cool it's , it's a , it's essential I'm still here .
Speaker 3I'll do it if I haven't left that's a good point .
Speaker 4I'll do it . That is a good point all right , so kicked out oh gosh , I tell you , um .
Speaker 1So we've got a lot to cover today , though , wouldn't we do ? Do we have a spotlight that we can use to focus on him as we begin our authentication ?
Speaker 4That's right . Yeah , we can do that in editing , no problem .
Speaker 3All right , good , no , ben , tell us a little bit about yourself . I know you're in the coaching business . Tell us more , yeah . So CEO coach and strategist which is a really awkward title like at a cocktail party when people are like I'm a banker or I'm a real estate agent and I'm like I'm a CEO coach , it doesn't really roll off the tongue super well , but it actually makes more sense if I give you just a quick bit on my background . So I always tell people no one would ever do on purpose the career that I've done on accident .
Speaker 3I've been a part of four different startups , a couple of different scaling companies and spent , you know , probably two thirds of my career in the marketplace . But in the middle I had a bizarre and wonderful experience for about seven years as a licensed professional counselor . That was part of my entrepreneurial journey , was actually founded a counseling clinic . So psychology , yeah , I was a licensed professional counselor technically , but that stuff's all pretty similar buckets , gotcha , gotcha . So what I do today is in coaching is really a nice coming together , uh , my marketplace experience and my time , uh as as a counselor , uh , which is long , long in the rear view , um , but certainly skills that that I still lean into today . So what type of counseling ?
Speaker 4was that yeah ?
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah . So , um , really saw two things primarily . Uh , one was professional men . Now , this was this was back in like 20 , 2010, . All the way through 2016 . Um , and so really , counseling was a different world back then , um , but so a lot of professional men . There weren't many male counselors back then , uh , and , and men typically wanted to see a male counselor , and so I saw a lot of professional men and then I did a lot of marriage therapy . Okay , and what was great about that is over six years , seven years , I did around 5,000 hours of therapy . Wow , and just the skills that you build , doing something that much , and really was the first time I sat in the seat of outside perspective , which is the same seat I sit in with CEOs and founders today but really developed those muscles , really discovered how I can best you know , with my unique skill set , personality , whatever how I can best sit in the seat of outside perspective and really learned a ton in counseling and really thankful for uh , uh , and really thankful for the experience .
Speaker 4It was also just , it was a lot , and when it was time to move on , it was very time to move on Well you probably ended your day just hearing about other people's problems and considering I mean , I mean , not that that's a bad thing , but I mean .
Speaker 3But you gotta be uniquely wired through that for a long time . Um and and you know , I learned a ton . I don't have any regrets about doing it , but also knew when that season was coming to a close .
Speaker 1I think the question , though , that all our listeners are going to want to know the answer to is how many times have you been married ?
Speaker 3Once for 20 years and still presently .
Speaker 4Yeah , man , I love you .
Speaker 1That's a success . I know you probably learned a tremendous amount about just like how to deal with your own relationship .
Speaker 3Oh yeah , but my wife doesn't put up with any crap from me , Like she doesn't say this anymore , but she used to literally say don't you bring your therapy stuff on me . That's right . I don't want it . That's right . I don't want , that's right . You keep that out of here that's unusual .
Speaker 1Most spouses want to bring the therapy stuff on and we're like , no , don't bother us at certain phases when they get past that , that's , they just gave up .
Speaker 4Yeah , yeah , that's bad , that's when you , that's a good big bread . We have experience in that department couple times . Some of us three , four , yeah , three , okay , sorry it's third times .
Speaker 1The charm got it , got it , but uh . So that is interesting , though I'm sure , and especially like partnerships . A lot of times in businesses , whether they're organized as partnerships or corporations or llc's that yeah the one owner . It's like being married to somebody isn't it absolutely ?
Speaker 3um , uh , those , those I you know I'll have conversations all the time , guys , with people who it's like being married to somebody , isn't it Absolutely ?
Speaker 3I'll have conversations all the time , guys , with people who want to become a coach , because they are either in a pastoral role , they are a counselor or a psychologist , and they're like I think I want to get into coaching and I and I tell them all the same thing , which is the skillset you've built will translate , but it's going to sit on top of a completely different piece of context and you better learn that content because you might do a little bit of coaching here or there , because you've got some skills you've built . Um , that that can , that , that you can take and give folks under the name of leadership or whatever . But you better learn their context and you better get really serious about learning that context . Like , if you don't want to start reading books and reading articles and getting into the HBR and reading the Wall Street Journal or whatever your source is , then don't think you can become a coach , because you got to learn the context , your skills , don't think you can become a coach .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 3Because you got to learn the context , your skills . Don't get to just come over here and sit , yeah , just constantly growing and learning .
Speaker 4That's right , yourself right . And I mean you know , and I think it's . I like the whole counseling thing just because I think that everything in business is about relations . I mean it's about how do you handle your relationship , how do you you know , how do you you'll come across , how do you not offend ? How do you offend ? How do you be direct ? I mean there's just so much emotion nestled within every business decision that I think it's important that , especially for our
Meet Ben Cash: CEO Coach
Speaker 4listeners , right , that are your thing about jumping into a business , starting one or you're trying to grow one , it comes down to that relational factor , I mean everywhere .
Speaker 3I had a guy ask me a year ago . He was starting a business and he had been talking to another guy about partnering to start it and he said , should I take on a part ? And I was like , maybe , like , maybe that could be a great thing or maybe it could be a complete train wreck .
Speaker 3Exactly , and he was like what's the point ? My mentor's telling me that I really should , and I was like , well , he might end up being right , or it might end up costing you thousands of dollars and years of your life , and I mean let's stay in that for a second , because I was telling somebody just not even a week ago about I have been blessed with great partners .
Speaker 4I mean I really have like , but I've I've seen with my other peers in the business community that that's not the case with everybody . Actually , it's kind of a unique experience because I have seen some partnerships that have been absolutely devastating , even more devastating than divorces .
Speaker 1Yeah , well , I mean , it's a . We see it all the time . I mean , a lot of times two people get together because they are like each other , which is makes for the worst kinds of partners . You know you need to have different skills and orientation typically to work well together , so you're not , yeah , in each other's territory well , let's just be honest .
Speaker 3When you're sitting at the beginning and the risk is through the roof , it feels nice to have somebody else in the boat . Sure , it's comforting to go . If this thing sinks , he or she's sinking too , and I'm not alone , you know like so that that , that feels good , but you're trading a lot for that , for that early on .
Speaker 4Well , and there's a lot of when you're trading a lot for that , for that early on . Well , there's a lot of when you're sitting the boat with all that risk and one of you you know the goal would be is that the other person is as invested as you are fills a rack against the wall .
Speaker 4Are going to fight like hell yeah , they're at the same time and attention they're not looking eight to five , they're not talking about the next vacation and all this kind of stuff . They're engaged . But the problem happens when that other person starts getting discouraged , becoming depressed , starts isolating , distracted for any reason . Yeah , yeah , yeah , just tired , exhausted , worn out . They're not . They're not on the , they're not on the battlefield with you more . That's devastation .
Speaker 3Yep , the two things that I see in partnerships uh and I don't work with a ton of partnerships , so I'm not trying to position myself as an absolute expert here , but I've had partners and I've worked with some partners the two things that I see the most number one is exactly what you just said , which is somebody retreats a little bit and they're just being worn down whatever Sure man , life happens , yeah that can happen .
Speaker 3Yeah , number two , though , is vision drift . I see so much vision drift that just seeds this . You know it starts off here Like we're going , we're rowing in the same direction , we want to do the same thing , but we get seven years into the business and all of a sudden we're in a new season . We got some people working for us , we got some opportunities that maybe we didn't have , and all of a sudden , this partner wants to go that way and this personal partner wants to go that way .
Speaker 3Well , it's not very big at first , but , man , as time goes and then you look up all of a sudden and you're yelling at each other and you're arguing with each other and you're going we need to do this , and the other partner , we need to do this , and it's vision driven . Yeah , and and what ? Both visions might be viable , they might be good , they might be profitable , but if they're different , it's it . It will really , really wreck that partnership over time .
Speaker 4You know how do you mitigate that or how do you navigate that vision , because I mean , if you see that real early on , I mean the optimal thing is to catch it really soon .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 4Right , just like in a marriage , right . If you start splitting a little bit , how do you bring that back in ? I mean , one thing I think about is just go have more time together as partners , right .
Speaker 3Absolutely . And you've got to fight like hell for alignment . You've got to fight for alignment and over and , over and over again .
Speaker 3And the problem is the first 90 percent of alignment I'm making up a statistic here , by the way , guys , the first , we're all about that anecdotal we got it fine , no , first 90 percent of alignment is typically pretty easy , like it's like okay , well , we make water and we sell water at gas stations , and this is our consumer . And it's like okay , well , we make water and we sell water at gas stations and this is our consumer . And it's like , okay , yeah , great , we got it . Well , there's this last 10 of alignment , where , where things get a little bit more into focus and we have to make some real decisions , that is really really hard and it's so easy to leave that last 10% undone . And that's the 10% that grows and grows and grows over time , makes total sense . And so you have to , you have to really really fight for that , that full level of alignment .
Speaker 3And and you need you you have to actively fish for , for misalignment , like you . You need to like , if you're doing , if you have a semi-annual partnership retreat which is a great idea , by the way of some sort Okay , you need to . You need to not just say are we aligned ? Yeah , okay , great , we're aligned . You need to go let's . We need to like spend 15 minutes brainstorming places we're not aligned , like specifically looking for places we're not aligned .
Speaker 1I like that . That's good . I want to go back to one thing , though , if we can Back on this coaching thing and you're saying people need to understand the context . I mean , I'll be honest with you that I feel very skeptical of most coaches . You should . Most of them have been through some kind of training class . I know one individual , for example , who's a quote life coach . Yeah , I know one individual , for example who's ?
Speaker 1a quote life coach yeah , and this person has had a series of failed relationships through their entire life . Yeah , they've never built any kind of a career success . Yeah , okay . And now , at whatever age let's say you know advanced age they've become a life coach and they're going to go out there and tell me how to live my life or how to be more successful in business . Get real , yeah . I mean , I think a lot of business owners feel like if the coach hasn't been as successful as they have been in business , they don't have any credibility with them .
Speaker 3Yeah , what do you think I think it's a great question ? They don't have any credibility with them . Yeah , what do you think I think it's a great question ? I'm going to maybe nuance a little bit my answer . So level one is I completely agree , like there
From Therapist to Business Coach
Speaker 3are . I'm telling you guys , I get calls every single week of people who want to become coaches . I believe that In the marketplace , sure and done big work , you haven't done seven years as become coaches .
Speaker 1I believe that Sure and done and done , big work Haven't done seven years as a therapist .
Speaker 3That's right . Yeah . Sat on a leadership team yeah , right , and start a business that grew from 25 million to 150 million in five years . Exactly , yeah or persist . Participated in four startups , so yes , I agree so like yes , it's , it's real .
Speaker 3We just eliminated 98% of them right there , 99% , I will say there are some really good coaches who , who don't have the experience you would expect . I mean , you know , like I've got a , I've got a coach or I've got a CEO in my portfolio . Right now we're a year and a half in to a to a year long engagement , okay , so we extended . Yeah , he's a happy client , sure , okay , and , and he is running a $750 million business in Los Angeles , california , that is backed by private equity money . I've never done that , yeah , sure , I haven't done that . So here's my nuance to that yes , the experience matters and you got to have it , you , you got to have some level of it . But there's also this level of , like , serious training and and really getting into the science and art of being a coach , where I can sit down with him and and I haven't sat in his seat , but I can prove to him that I've developed enough skills as a coach to be the coach that comes along , the guy that's sitting in that seat , and there is some skill .
Speaker 1No , I believe that I mean I've been a management consultant since 1980 , and I've worked with CEOs and founders , architecture and engineering firms all over . Certainly , some of them were much bigger than my own company yes , that's right . So I believe that you can make that Absolutely , yep , and if you have credibility and sensibility .
Speaker 3Yep , yep , but you have to . That's only for the coaches that are taking really serious the work .
Speaker 1I got another question for you , though . What's the difference in ? Well , I think I know what's sort of conventional wisdom is about the difference in a coach versus a consultant . You know , the consultant tells you what to do . The coach is supposed to like pull it out of you . Is that your thought process or no ?
Speaker 3I hear that exact line pretty often yeah , I don't love it , I don't either . So here's how I would describe it , like if you are , if you're running , if you're the CEO of a hospital system , or let me pick a more relevant example for our audience today If you're the CEO of a $25 million home services company , right , sure , and you're going . You know what . I need help on this industry-specific topic ? Go , get a consultant . That's what a consultant does . If you're like I've got this really hyper-specific , industry-level problem that I can't solve HVAC marketing , that's right . Yeah , like , go , I'm just throwing that out there . I don't want to help you with that , so don't call if that's what you mean Don't call , I got it .
Speaker 3But you know I don't think that a really good coach is just pulling answers out at you . Thank , you .
Speaker 3We just pulling answers out in you . Thank you , we say all the time . There's four things that we provide for every client engagement . Number one is useful strategy , outside perspective , measured accountability and energizing hope . That's our four . We're doing those .
Speaker 3Useful strategy and outside perspective you better believe I am bringing .
Speaker 3I am bringing some ideas , some best practices , some fresh thinking to the table , and that's going to be on strategic topics , that's going to be on um , that's going to be on leadership topics . That's going to be on things about your P and L , like we're we're getting shared , so um , there are times where I'm going to let some space sit and let some , you know , let a client do a little bit of self-discovery , but there are also times when I'm going to come straight in and be like this is a mistake , you need to go do this , go do this . And that art whether we're talking about , you know , small business owners who are managing and leading others , or a coach who's working with a client that art of knowing when to lean in and when to lean out is , is a big , big part of the coaching posture and leadership posture as well , like knowing when to go . Hey , I'm just going to be directive here and everybody needs to , needs to hear yeah or hey , I'm going to , I'm going to let some of the more open space play .
Speaker 4So I want to put it in kind of a really practical scenario from my experience and this is a good dialogue , because I've never really looked into a coach or consultants .
Speaker 4I've experienced consultants but I've never really looked into a coach but there are a lot of times as a business owner that I'm like who do I trust ? Yeah , cause , everyone around you , their , their opinion , is what I mean , not like them as a person , but as their opinion , their advice or direction , and it's there's a lot of times as an entrepreneur , I feel very isolated and like does anybody have a motive to give me an answer ? That's , that's objective and for the good of the business ? Yep , is that what I'm kind of looking at with a coach ? Is somebody that's that's in that , that is in my circle of basically trusting that . The advice that I get , or a directive or and what I liked about what you said just a second ago is don't do this , do this , because that's for the good of the whole versus the good of of any one person I mean , is that , is that a good way to kind of put that ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I , I , I think so . Now , now look , even even us , you know , sure , motive coaches are , are , are sending an invoice at the end of the month , so our motives are not completely pure , uh , but , but no doubt , I , I , I think one of the things that's really really important there , um , yes , it is unbelievable . The isolating weight in a founder or a CEO at any level of businesses is , uh , is feeling , I mean , I , I tell people , all the time we , we talk about an org chart just comes down like this , don't forget , a lot of times it also goes up to an ownership group or a board , right , and the pitch point it's either the pinnacle or the pitch point Every single time is that founder or CEO who's leading ?
Speaker 1And I think another not to interrupt you , but I think just in support of what you're saying even if you don't have outside owners of which I've had companies where I was the majority owner and other owners and I started it and didn't have any private equity or anything you still feel like you're not , it's not all yours . I mean , you've got all these other partners . You got to please them . If you don't , they leave or they have an insurrection , that's right . You've got customers or clients out there . You got to take care of them and you got your employees out there , which you know they all have free will too . So it's like nobody can just operate with impunity . That's right . If you're smart man , I tell you like here's what's .
Speaker 4You know , there was a period in my career's number of years ago to where , like , I was facing such like literally I tell people for a six month period on a daily basis . I was facing such like literally , I tell people for a six-month period on a daily basis . I was facing life and death decisions of the business . Every day there was something coming up . I mean I had culture draining but yet at the same time , invigorating . I had really great folks and really bad folks . I was making massive decisions about the direction of the company . I had no partner . I had , I mean , like it was and , by the way , I didn't the cash
The Isolating Reality of Entrepreneurship
Speaker 4wasn't working , the revenue wasn't coming in , you know , or I'd have a big job , have to execute it . I mean , there was just so much going on this period and I remember like going , I don't have anyone to talk to . Yeah , you know , that does it like . If you talk to your spouse , you scare the shit out of your spouse . Yep , right . If you talk to your employees , it just further exasperates the freaking , the you know the negative culture and all the fears of everybody like about their jobs and when really everybody needs to come together , put the ship and go , you know , and that's all I was trying to do . It it wasn't .
Speaker 4I mean , I didn't , I had lost any hope of my own personal income and financial security , like that was on the complete break , like I was riding on the edge , you know . And then , of course , you have reputation and all these things . You know , I mean there's just like failure staring at you in the face , right , and , and I think that that that that period , and when I've talked to other entrepreneurs , they have lived that , right , and you , you're in this dark area of who do you talk to ? Yeah , you know , because you . It's almost like you can't even talk to mentors . I couldn't call mark because , mark , when you look down on me and pass judgment on you , yeah , you would pass total judgment on me , right , but I mean , but's , that may not be truth , right , but that is how you feel in that moment . Yeah , yeah , right , yeah .
Speaker 3You know part of the for for me , founders , no doubt it's an isolating space . No one in their world understands all the different aspects of family financials decisions managing down . Oh , by the way , trying to manage myself a little bit too , to make sure I don't drive this ship off the fence . Yeah 100% With coaching . But the problem with coaching is you can't pay somebody a monthly retainer to just come in and be the person that you can be Like . They've also got to drive value for the business .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 3A great coach has got to do both of those things . They've got to be able to come in and actually be helpful to drive bottom line value for the business and come in and be that person that goes hey , I'm not trying to say I know exactly what it's like to be you , but I would imagine that when you tapped that line of credit to make payroll this month because you're waiting on that big invoice to be paid , and oh , by the way , that line of credit secured against your house and your , your spouse may kill you if she knows that you've tapped it again Like , and your , your spouse may kill you if she knows that you've tapped it again .
Speaker 1Like yeah , okay , like you get some credibility with that's where you bridge that gap you were talking about . Absolutely yeah , I get it . I mean I , that makes total sense that's good dialogue you know I I don't want to go sidetrack too much , but I was a a leader of one of these groups of business people who get together .
Speaker 1I won't name the brand yeah okay , and it was all you know , and I think there were some really good aspects of it . Yeah , meaning , so somebody like eric is talking about like , who's he going to go to when you've got like eight or ten or twelve other business owners together at a table and they have no vested interest in your business whatsoever , they can sort of function as your board and catharsis you know cathartic experience sharing your problems with them . You know that they also have . But at the same time , you know there were other aspects of those groups that I think are really bad .
Speaker 1Yeah , um , like they're always trying to sell their members something . Yeah , okay , there's always a program they want you to sign them up for . There's always , um , an outside speaker who's got something that they're selling , yeah , and and that's a real negative . So you know , but I I will say that a lot of people who are in those groups , they would go back and forth between being part of a group , having a coach yeah , doing that for a while , then going back to a group , doing that for two while , then going back to a group , doing that for two or three years , again back to a coach . Do you see that ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I mean , you know , I say this with fondness , not judgment . Some people are just are content junkies .
Speaker 1Yes , they are . Some people are just like , I call them management junkies , but yeah , yeah , like they .
Speaker 3Just they gotta have . You know , they read the new book and they got to implement that strategy in their business . And they met a guy at their Vistage group and they got to implement the EOS is the savior of every single thing Of the entire world .
Speaker 1Yeah , exactly , I know . No doubt Drives me insane . Yeah , yeah , I know exactly what you're saying . And so it's like one out of 10 . If there's 10 owners in the company , one of them is going to be one of those jobs .
Speaker 3And , by the way , if you've ever worked for one of those people before , it is professional whiplash . Oh yeah , Because you're going this way and then they read the new book You're swimming with on the bus and then you got a blue oceans whatever . But then you know we also have , uh , on the other end of that , one minute managing , we've got , we've got the we've got the maverick who's never let me anybody into the circle .
Speaker 3Yeah , like that's the other end of that spectrum yeah , I'm over here and I'm gonna do my thing and what like whatever happens is gonna happen , and I'm charging the dadgum hill and you guys better be coming with me . So there is another end of that spectrum too . But yeah , I mean , we see people move in and out of that . Look , I am extremely fortunate to be a few years into my practice where I'm not begging for clients anymore , like I'm not scraping the barrel looking for clients anymore and and I'm really it it it becomes this really weird momentum thing happens in coaching when all of a sudden you can be a little more selective of your client and go this person needs help . They know they need help and I can actually be the one that could help them .
Speaker 3Now , all of a sudden we've sudden there's some serious momentum happening here where they're going to have a better experience , I'm going to have more confidence , I'm going to deliver more value , like a lot of good can happen there , and so you know that's a nice place to be as a coach , where I'm seeking out clients that I know I can help .
Speaker 4Sure . So , bing , can you give us some , I mean for the listeners , right , like I mean , you've got an entrepreneur that's listening to this . What are some of the values from a coach standpoint ? Right , and you said the good analogy about consulting . You know , from a consulting arrangement , very isolated , very niche , very specific task . But if they have greater needs , I mean what , what are some like , uh , some examples , tactical examples that you could give so that they could say , oh , I actually might need a coach ? I mean it's enlightening for me too . I mean , hell , I don't know if I need a coach , you know .
Speaker 3Um , so there's a lot I mean we help , we , we we work on . Let me give a little bit of overview of how , please let me answer that question . So we try to isolate five to 10 really specific things that a client wants help with . So that might be something strategic in the business , it might be something with the P&L , it might be leadership , management , management . It might be like a long-range vision or dream . I want to sell my business or I want this to lifestyle for the next three decades , whatever . But we're going to isolate five to 10 things and then we're going to work really , really hard on those things . So because of that , we get into a lot of different things . We do not have cookie cutter . It is not EOS . Do not have cookie cutter it's it is not EOS . Or working genius Like ah , here you know , here , here's the playbook , just go run that . It's all real custom . But I will give one thing particularly relevant for for your listeners Uh , when , when I talk to small business folks , the number one thing that I'm interested in is do you have line of sight to the business creating the outputs that you actually want ?
Speaker 3Now , I'm not saying you got to be there today , like sometimes the small business journey is a dumpster fire and you got to go through the dumpster fire , yeah , but like , do you have line of sight ? Can you see , you know if , if ? Can you see the exit that you're chasing ? Like , is it real , is it out there ? Or can you see the business funding the lifestyle that you want to see ? Or can you see yourself ? I mean , you know time like the number one , not not the number one thing , but something that you hear all the time as well .
Speaker 3We're just really busy right now I'm like yeah , that's what we've all been saying the last 30 years , right ? So , like , if you're telling me you actually want it , like it's important that the business that you've put your entire financial , uh , you know , uh , your all your money , all your risk on the line , your identity , your identity , yeah , you actually . And you're telling me I want to own a business because eventually , I want to get some of my time and flexibility back , do you actually have line of sight to that ? Like , is that a real potential outcome right now or not ? Yeah , and a lot of times , the real answer to that is no . I have a dream , but I don't actually have a line of sight to it , and so a lot of times , what we'll do , I don't actually have a line of sight to it , and so a lot of times , what we'll do , particularly with small business owners , is say here's current state , here's where we are today .
Speaker 3Let's get really real about that . Here's the P&L , here's the team . Frank sucks . I need to fire him . I've known that for a year and a half , exactly , yeah , you know . Whatever , whatever , like here's the , here's the , here's the nitty-gritty of the present state . Yes , and here's the actual like . What is that ? Desired state yeah , yeah .
Speaker 3What is that future state ? And maybe it's three years away , maybe it's 10 years away , sure , but like what is that desired state ? What ? Do we have line of sight to it ? Where we not , and if we don't have line of sight , we better get serious about creating some pathways to have that line of sight . Now , those lines of sight they may go into strategic initiatives . They may go into a decision to kill one part of an offering and start a new part of an offering . They may have . It may be I need to make a $200,000 investment so that I can like whatever , but that's something we see a lot of , particularly with small business owners . Is is creating a lot inside the future state .
Speaker 1It's interesting you know , you just said something I think is interesting . Um , you said whether your goal is to have this exit at some point or to create a business that that funds a certain lifestyle for a long time in the future . I guess my experience is that the second one is extremely difficult to do . And what's the second ? The second one is build a business that funds a lifestyle for 30 years into the future Just cash flowing . Yeah , for 30 years into the future , cash flowing . Yeah , yeah
Consultant vs. Coach: What's the Difference?
Speaker 1, yeah , yeah . That that I think a lot of people have that idea about their business , their small business , that they're going to start this thing , they're going to get it to a certain point where it makes a lot of money . They're going to step back out of it . It's just going to churn out money for them . Okay , I think that is so unlikely and in fact , I think it's a disservice to most people to allow them to think that that's even a realistic possibility . Yeah , what do you think about that ?
Speaker 3I think it's a really fair push because I think , look , if we just surveyed a hundred small business owners in their experience over the last decade , the number who have ended in that state is going to be extremely small , yeah , yeah . So I think it's a really really fair push . I do think , look , it's never this clean , it's never this easy . Look , it's never this clean , it's never this easy . But if you can go into the journey and and know that that's what you're aiming at and that it influences a lot of early decisions like , let's , let's take a very , let's go back to the partnership , right , if you want a lifestyle , if you want the business to to fund your lifestyle , don't get a partner , because now it's funding , it's got . You just put a lot of pressure on the P&L . It's got to fund two lifestyles , not one . It's a lot easier to fund one lifestyle than two .
Speaker 4And that's assuming that the partner is aligned to that same exit plan .
Speaker 3That's right , no doubt about it . No doubt about it . For a lack of exit plan , right , yeah , if you do have some vision from the very , very early stage and can influence decisions as you go , it is a . It is a uh ambition worth worth chasing . Um , now , at the same time , I've I've got a client right now that's in home services . He has a uh , it does . They do about 12 million bucks of revenue a year , uh , and they're doing profit around $1.5 million . So a really nice little business . Sure , but consolidation is happening in his industry like crazy , sure , like crazy . I mean , everybody is buying or being bought All this private equity money chasing , banding all these little companies together , no doubt about it , and so his vision it's a family business .
Speaker 3He's second generation , it's been in the family for 30 years and he's like I want it to fund our family for another 30 years . And I looked at him a couple months ago and I said I don't know that that's going to be an option that's on the table for you . Yeah , because I don't know that you're going to be able to exist as this independent organization in an industry that is getting consolidated like crazy , and so sometimes you may even set out and be one of the few that does everything right and still lose that opportunity now if that happens . So he's going to get a nice check and he'll be okay . Like I'm not super worried about yeah , uh , but , but it could be very real .
Speaker 1This game makes a lot of sense .
Speaker 4I'm , you know , I'm impressed , yeah well , I mean , I think you know skeptical about coaches , come dude , I am a slight redemption of my mystery .
Speaker 1I'm slight , yeah , you see . Well , you're not . I mean , what you do really isn't much . I mean , I hate to be the word you know , can I ?
Speaker 3speak to that real quick though .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 3I should give a ton of credit to my mentor there . So my mentor is a guy named Steve Graves . You guys have probably heard of Steve . He's a local guy . Steve taught me to be a coach and that's a message for a lot of great coaches is don't just go hang your shingle Like you . Get somebody that knows what the heck they're doing .
Speaker 1Yeah , exactly .
Speaker 3Who's been successful ?
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 3Who's been successful ? Right , I agree , not only did I have some industry experience , but , man , then I had a mentor who taught me how to do it . That's helpful , and I've made plenty of mistakes , both in my time in organizations and in businesses and even as a coach , but having a mentor to kind of pull me along has been really helpful .
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Speaker 1I guess what I was going to say is I don't want to split hairs over the terminology , but what you're doing in my mind is the same thing that , let's say , I did as a management consultant at a high level . Yeah , I don't see much difference in it . Yeah , call it whatever you want . Yeah , sure , but obviously you got to get into the people and their motivations and what the desired end state is and all these things that you've mentioned . And you know , I don't know why it is that people don't like the word consultant today . I mean , it's like every consultant now is an advisory yeah , yeah firm .
Speaker 1Okay , I , I mean it , just it drives me crazy .
Speaker 1Consultant became a dirty word at some point yeah , yeah but anyway , back on though what we were talking about with the small business owners and all . I mean , what do you think about ? I mean , is it viable to say we just want to be small and highly profitable as an organization and go on like that for a long time ? I mean , is that really viable ? I mean , is that really viable ? I guess I keep coming back to this idea that who good wants to work in that company ? If you told me that your company is like Mark , you've come to work for me as a young , highly motivated person , but we're never going to have more than eight or 10 people and I'll never sell you the company . I'm going to turn it over to my daughter . Why would I want to work there ?
Speaker 3Highly ambitious people are probably not applying . Why ?
Speaker 1would I want to work in that environment . I mean , it just seems like a lot of business owners . They're so myopic and they can't . They want what they want and they can't look at it more objectively and say who's gonna want to be part of this thing ? Yeah , do you ever give ?
Speaker 3that talk to people . It's , it's a great question . Um , I do , I do think it's possible . I do think that slice is really is is quite thin and takes an extraordinary amount of strategy and discipline . Let me give a small example , and this is like I'm kind of shooting from the hip here . Sure , it's okay , I mean , if this isn't full of flesh , it's okay , our entire show yeah . Perfect , that should be right .
Speaker 1We shoot from the hip .
Speaker 3My wife would tell you I'm best when shooting from the hips when I aim that's right , it that thinks that's right . Um , it's like show skeet , you like that ? Yeah , yeah , that's a point , yeah . So , going back to your example of of , uh , your business and and the guy that doesn't want to grow it , he's going to pass it to his daughter . Look , this is an extreme example , but like the type of strategy it takes to make something like that , work is to go . So here's how I'm going to account for that in my business plan . I'm going to have a catch and release talent strategy and I , instead of panicking when good people leave , I'm going to celebrate and even market that they left so that the next young , ambitious person that comes along and knows this . They can't take over my business and it's not going to grow to be 50 people it's going to go , but at least it's a good stepping stone .
Speaker 1That's right , yeah , but that's an interesting point , these books so . But that's the never thought about that .
Speaker 3But you're right , you know what you're designing for . Yeah , you've got to design on purpose like crazy , like crazy . And look , most of us are so dadgum busy fighting the fires of today that is really hard to pull out and do some of that . Invent the future work around that design and and look , I'm not gonna stump for myself too hard , but that that's where coaches come in and can be really helpful yeah it's by helping you hide some of that design stuff it .
Speaker 4It's like a founder . Okay , so that's your goal as a founder , but your responsibility as a founder is to think about what does that impact mean ? And you have to be realistic with yourself and strategize about that , because you can't have a company without other people . That's right , absolutely , and you've got to be able to accommodate that .
Speaker 3If you're going to take some things , what are you going to give ?
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right , it's got .
Speaker 3Yes , it's got a balance .
Speaker 1It's like we hear it all the time . It's like we don't have any good people . There's no good people out there . Well , what do you do for your people ? Well , nothing . We pay a minimum wage . We have no benefits . There's no open book management .
Speaker 3There's no shared business planning . You wonder why you have crappy people ? Yeah , yeah , that's it . I mean hey . So Steve Graves always says every organization is perfectly designed to get the results it
Creating a Viable Small Business Strategy
Speaker 3gets . Yeah , it's a haunting phrase .
Speaker 1I like that . That's a great phrase .
Speaker 3Every organization is perfectly designed to get the results it gets . It's a haunting phrase , but it can also be a hopeful phrase , because this , this plot there is . If we change the design , yes , we can change the output , yes , but changing the design is stinking hard . Like that that you have to pull away from . You know , the tyranny of the urgent yes , step back and go . I'm going to spend even more time and money now . Yes , to change the design . That's not going to play out tomorrow , next week , or help me make .
Speaker 1And I got to survive the working capital . That's right as the cost of that . Absolutely it's very difficult , yeah .
Speaker 4So I got a question . I'm going to get some free advice on the show . Good yeah , some free advice on the show Good yeah . So my perspective is a little bit different in what I do with my business , like , my goal is to exit , it's to get a check at the end , right , yep , that's my goal , yep . In the business , the people that work for me , they know that's my goal , that's our goal , collectively , yep . And so they will benefit , they will benefit , they will benefit . And to that point , okay , so we may not be making , you may not have this , this , this latter step of big corporation where you're constantly making , making more and more money , but you do have a chance to get a part of the check , yep , right at the end . And so that's our motivation and work towards what I see that happens .
Speaker 4And here's my frustrating point . I , as a founder , can see that vision . Every freaking time I wake up , well , you've done it . And every decision that's made as his company , and every single nook and cranny , I'm like how ? And I get .
Speaker 4And here's where I get frustrated . Yeah , I'm like how in the hell can you not see what you're doing ? How exactly come to work ? Yep , yeah , and you have . This is our motivation was there yesterday like how can you not see your decision to do it ? This process , this way , is going to never , ever , ever get us to the scale we need to go . Exactly how do I , as a founder or as a business owner , continuously en enlist that vision ? Like you , do you not understand the compound interest that you have on your time today that will get us to that level ? When you don't do these things , it impacts everybody's paycheck at the end . Like you're , it's not me . You're fighting against . You're fighting against your own negativity . You bring that into the company . You're lazy , you're tired , you're exhausted . So is everybody else , yep . But if you can just see something and know that every time you spend an hour in this company , you're multiplying your return on your investment , how do you get that point across to the company ?
Speaker 3Three things come to mind God , thank God . Number one is hire the right people . Okay , crazy like I . I mean and I'm not saying you've hired the wrong people , right , right , no , I agree like yeah , it starts right there and you gotta , and you have to scrape for that mentality in the hiring .
Speaker 4How did okay so in that ? How do you interview for that ? How do you know that that person's the right one ?
Speaker 3yeah , you'd have to give me a little like if a client asked me that question . I'm going to do some homework and some preparation , okay , but you would need you need to design for scraping , for ownership mentality . Okay , not going to be easy , but it is possible . I mean , look , I used to . I used to work for an egg company . We had people come in and try to sell eggs . Like you want to sell eggs , come sell eggs . Like you know , I mean we got pretty creative with our interview process , got it . So that's one piece . The second would be , obviously , vision casting , and I'm sure you're doing a ton of that , but as quantifiable as we can make the future potential check , as much vision as we can cast for what that day is going to be like , and doing that pretty often , and I think the repetition of that .
Speaker 4The repetition of that is I'm often worried about . Is it too much ? Like a lot of times I'll talk and I'm giving they call it the Eric soapbox or you got Eric . There's literally a verb that they title it the team . Yeah , you got Eric , yeah , but like team , yeah , you got eric . Yeah , but I like a lot of times I'm talking and I want to keep talking but I quit because I can just see the freaking ice .
Speaker 3Oh yeah , like you got to be bold , you got to be brilliant , you got to be going , okay . I mean , like we got to be , we got to be fast , eric , okay , okay . So we need to , we need to probably , we probably need to shorten that message up a little bit . Then , uh , and then what's the third thing ? Here's the third thing , and this is the one that sucks . It may not matter , damn it because here , here's the deal . Are you mad , are you happy ?
Speaker 1no , I'm agreeing okay , great , I didn't know , mark , I was worried , I was worried . Yeah , it's , that's a sad reality .
Speaker 3It is a sad reality and I learned this is a hard way . I was doing , uh , some compensation planning for a company that I worked for one time and we spent so we know salary benefits , short-term bonus plan and then long-term incentive plan , and we spent a ton of time and money on a long-term incentive plan for a big company that was going to exit and we put the number in front of people three times a year . If we sell in two years at this amount , here's your Right . Yeah , really , being specific , a lot of changing money . Big meaningful numbers Like go pay your home off yeah , right , sure , big meaningful numbers . And at the end of the day , what we found was people would leave the job for a different role where they were going to make 20% more salary yeah , or 10% , and with no glory .
Speaker 4And with no glory .
Speaker 1No , honor yes exactly .
Speaker 3It's a mentality , it's a mindset . It's a unique person Sure To stay latched on to that mindset . It's a unique person Sure To stay latched onto that vision . And not everybody has it . And you can't build a team full of people Like there's not enough of them . You can't build a team full of people . I hope your team's not listening . I'm sure you guys are all great .
Speaker 4They will be listening . I'll require them to listen .
Speaker 3I'll make them all listen , but they will be listening , I'll require them to listen , I'll make that all this good , but they're they should , they should . It's just not a . That's not how everybody's wired and at the end of the day , and look , I actually want to defend the person a little bit , like there are some people that just their life is oriented around different things and that's okay .
Speaker 1But they need to . It's okay , but they need to know who they are and , more importantly , we need to know who they are
Final Advice for Entrepreneurs
Speaker 1. You're right , hey wow . This has really been a great discussion and I'm very impressed with Ben's insight and thought process . So if anybody wants to get a hold of you , how do they do so ?
Speaker 3Easiest . You know well this is going to be ironic , given our pregame conversation . The easiest way is to shoot me a note on LinkedIn .
Speaker 4No problem , Just don't start with just how was your day ?
Speaker 1Yeah , be really clear . Just don't try to sell Ben anything , cause I'm not , cause we're all getting those .
Speaker 3Or you can go check out our website cornerstonecocom , and you can go check out our website cornerstonecocom , and you can . You can find me pretty easy there . I'm , I'm , I'm not too hard to find .
Speaker 4In closing , what is one piece of advice that you would give to an entrepreneur ? Like , and just a quick snippet , like a all right , let's look . Here's the case . If I'm I'm in a large corporation , I have had a dream to start a company . I can't decide whether I want to take the step or not , but I'm miserable here and I see happiness , or at least glory and honor , strength and honor in starting my own business .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 4What's your advice ?
Speaker 3So two different pieces of advice one for somebody that might make the jump and one for somebody that's already in the journey . One for somebody that might make the jump and one for somebody that's already in the journey . So for somebody that might make the jump , if you've had the nagging dream and it's not going anywhere , take the daggum risk . Go do it Like , go for it . You know , like , if you've had a fleeting , half serious , half baked thought , keep your day job , okay , you don't need to go do it . But , like , if this is real and it's deep in you , take the jump , the need . Go do it Like . So that's number one . We like that .
Speaker 3Number two for the person that's in the journey I'm going to steal from my own world To thine own self . Be true , to thine own self . Be true , like , if you're in the entrepreneurial journey , be really real with yourself about where you're at in the journey . Like , what , what ? Where's the business going ? Is it producing the life for you that you actually want ? Do you have line of sight to where you're trying to go in the future ? Are you , are you losing too much outside of work ? Are you or are you content with where you're like ? Are you or are you content with where you're like just be really freaking real with yourself about where the business is and and find somebody that you can share that with , like whether that's a mentor , somebody else that's on the entrepreneurial journey , uh , or a coach , whatever . Find somebody that you can get into that a little bit with .
Speaker 4It's great .
Speaker 1It's good . Well , this has been a lot of fun . It has been .
Speaker 3Hey , thanks for taking a risk and letting me jump on the show with you guys . I appreciate it .
Speaker 1We really appreciate your being here . It's been great , so until next week .
Speaker 3I'm so nervous about the sign-off guys . I've been worried about this since the beginning . You should have been . You can do it . I'm going to do my best I'm trying to flow . I want to show you the hope what's that one of the words , the energizing hope man .
Speaker 1I'm going to read you some energizing hope .
Speaker 3You can do it .
Speaker 1Ben , I know , come on , so until next week . There's been another episode of .
Speaker 2Big Talk About Small Business at bigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show . Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business and be sure to head over to our website to read articles , browse episodes and ask questions about upcoming shows .