Big Talk About Small Business

Ep. 120 - Overselling Kills Trust

• Big Talk About Small Business

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Markets move fast and new competitors can appear overnight. We unpack how small businesses keep their edge by acting quickly, listening hard, and building trust with the people who fund, buy, and build the company. From saying yes to real customer needs to cleaning up your chart of accounts, this conversation blends candid stories with field-tested tactics you can use today.

We go straight at the hard parts: how to manage investors without overselling, why banks hate surprises, and how sloppy billing can nuke client trust. You’ll hear a wild but true tale about a $20 pizza that nearly cost an account, plus a step-by-step look at financial hygiene that actually supports strategy. We share practical ways to structure deliverables, own shortfalls early, and propose make-goods that keep renewals alive. If you’ve felt the drag of legacy processes or staff trained for yesterday’s offering, you’ll find a roadmap to regain speed without losing control.

We also pull back the curtain on raising capital. Learn how to choose investors who add more than money, and what it’s really like to use WeFunder to pool non-accredited investment through a lead. Expect clarity on expectations, voting, SEC compliance, and why transparent updates matter more than perfect outcomes. Inside the company, we talk about closing the money gap: helping teams understand where capital comes from, why it’s finite, and how to think like owners. Hire standout people, then shape roles to their strengths. Share customer stories so every sale becomes personal and quality rises naturally. Want stronger relationships and faster growth built on truth, not hype? This one’s for you.

If this conversation helped you think differently, subscribe, share it with a founder friend, and leave a quick review so others can find the show. 

Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!

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SPEAKER_06:

Business today moves so quickly and there's so few barriers to getting in business, especially with these service businesses. You know.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Things that don't take a lot of money to start.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_06:

Big infrastructure. Yeah. Like it'd be hard for somebody just to start podcastvideos.com because it takes some money. Mm-hmm. We are back with another episode of that big talk about that small business. There's a lot of talk and not enough action in small business. Man, you said it, right? Isn't that the truth? So much the truth. So much the truth. So too much planning. Too much planning, not enough acting.

SPEAKER_04:

Just act.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. I I mean, strategy, I'm not saying it's not important, it's fundamental, but it should be in your mind. Yeah. It guides everything you do. But I mean, at some point you got to start doing stuff.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, we've talked about this quite a bit. Just listen to your customer base. Exactly. I mean, there's no greater strategy than walking into a client meeting, offering what you thought is a good fit, and then them saying that actually you need this. It's a little side twist of what you're doing. And then you go, absolutely you say yes.

SPEAKER_06:

You do if you're smart. Yeah. I mean, like you said before, I mean, it's like that's why you got to get face to face with people so you can read the signs and not just miss all that communication that tells you when it's time to redirect. Yeah. But I think some people are just so in love with what they do and the way they do it, and they're so rigid in their idea of what they'll do that they miss out, don't you think?

SPEAKER_04:

I do. And I think that also, you know, I've actually fallen victim to you know, if you have a business and you start the wheels start turning and you're doing something, it's you know, you're you're getting business for it, but then you quit listening to your audience. You're just trying to sell the thing that you've been selling. Yep. And then you you get stuck in this vein, this is what we do, and this is the only thing that we do. Yeah, and your people start thinking that. Yep. And then that's a kind of a danger zone. It really is. And then you lose innovation, and then you become vulnerable. Yep. Because the guess what changes all the time? The market. Of course it does. It's constantly changing.

SPEAKER_06:

There's always new entrants to the market, and they don't have a lot of constraints. No. That's what you got to remember. They have zero bureaucracy. That's right. They have zero constraints on what they can do. They're not bound by the past, so they can do whatever they want to do faster. The longer you've been around, the slower you tend to get.

SPEAKER_04:

And I think that's due to you, you get a contract, right, and you're immediately bound. Yep. And then you get more staff, and you have to keep that machine going. And by the way, the staff was specifically trained for a specific offering. And then you get caught and you you're you're too afraid to make a move, and then you have the new entrants come in and they're just doing whatever the market says.

SPEAKER_06:

I'm telling you, that's the truth. There's just that's the thing about business today moves so quickly, and there's so few barriers to getting in business, especially with these service businesses. Yeah. You know, things that don't take a lot of money to start.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_06:

Big infrastructure. Yeah. Like it'd be hard for somebody just to start podcastvideos.com because it takes some money, you know, and planning and capital investment. Yeah. But a lot of service businesses, software, apps. Yeah, that's heavy. Dude, they can jump right in on you. Yeah, they can blow you out of the water fast if you're asleep at the wheel.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, one thing I was interested in in discussing with you, because I think that you've been you you've had some pretty fresh experience with it, is how do you manage investors?

SPEAKER_06:

Oh wow. That's a really big topic. I mean, I I just think there's a lot of things. You've got to be in communication with them constantly. Yeah. It takes constant communication, not just through the formal channels, but also the individual conversations with people.

SPEAKER_04:

That's such a good point because I think that, you know, like we've talked about, a lot of the new entrepreneurs or aspiring business owners get into this pitch deck and go out and raise capital. But they really but guess when you raise the capital, anytime you take money. That's just the start. Yeah. Anytime you receive money, whether it's from an investor, a bank, or even a customer. Yeah, you are now responsible for that money. Boy, that's so true. And if and I think the same thing applies, what you just said, whether it is an investor, a bank, or a customer. Yeah. Right? You have to be in formal comms. Right.

SPEAKER_06:

You've certain cha things you got to do on schedule.

SPEAKER_04:

That's right. And then you better be building relationships continuously. Yep. Or else that starts turning. And people it's people, you know, I was talking to somebody about this the other day about what causes this. I mean, the second that you sign a deal with anybody, and our a lot of times our human nature is, oh, I accomplished that. Right. Now I can go now. Now I'm done, I can start doing something else. But but the reality is somebody that's a really great practitioner is actually starts putting more fuel behind that communication. And because the whoever gave you the money, the second if you gave if I gave you money right now, I'd be excited to give it to you. But then I'd be like, what's he doing with that?

SPEAKER_06:

Exactly. Oh man, that is so true. I mean, we were just talking about that this morning. It's it's really funny you say that because um, you know, I think the most important thing, and it's it's a weakness in one of the companies that I'm involved with right now, is the quality of our information is not what it needs to be. And that does not lead to um faith from these investors that they're putting their money into something that's good.

SPEAKER_04:

What do you what we give some examples of the quality of the accounting information?

SPEAKER_06:

Okay. It's it's the numbers. The numbers. There's still problems with the numbers. Yeah. And it's just due to bad, it's due to people who are not doing what they need to do. Maybe they're not skilled enough or their attitude is bad culturally, not used to having the discipline that it takes to absolutely get your numbers to where they are right and you have 100% confidence in them.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, a problem with that that I've seen is the numbers in a business is just like learning math. Sure. It just constantly stacks on whatever you started with, right?

SPEAKER_06:

Man, that is the absolute truth, too. I mean, just again, the same company. I was looking at our PL on QuickBooks last night. I'm like, we have got to fix some of these expense categories in order to be able to accurately tie expenses to certain revenue lines.

SPEAKER_04:

It's it is it is my it's mind-blowing to me because like I am not a numbers guy, right? I mean, I've But you understand the numbers. What up you show them? I think what I understand is the categorization of it. It's like, why? I mean, why would you ever not put it in the like the second you get an invoice in, yeah, or the second that you get, you put an invoice out. And then it's not just that, but it's the line items in the invoice. Are they classified correctly in the correct revenue streams, and then your expenses the same way?

SPEAKER_06:

Why is that so hard? I don't know why that's so hard. But like you said, if you get off on the wrong foot, then it's so difficult to brain that button, fix it, and go forward. And you know, now we're entering the time that somebody's gonna need to do that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

End of the year. This is when you fix all that stuff.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and you and you shouldn't and you and if you don't do that, you can never read your business. You can never understand what's going on, what you need to invest more in, what you need to peel back on, expenses on. Yeah, it's just mind-blowing to me the lack of of just the collective group of people to be so insistent that those things are extremely accurate. You know, and and I would make a statement too: if you do not do that, it's going to bite you so heavily, not only through every day of your business, but when you go to sell and you go through due diligence, they're gonna find all that stuff. They're gonna be curious. You could be losing millions and millions of dollars.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, or you could be sitting there trying to reconstruct the past, which is damn near impossible when you're under a tight gun to do so. And guess what? And losing the faith of the buyer.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. They start going, yeah, man, their books are all jacked up. You know, I mean, I know we've been talking to them for three months, but we've been digging in and they don't know heads and tails. They can't, and they start losing that confidence, and then your deal falls through.

SPEAKER_06:

You're gonna make me lose sleep right now with this talk. I bet but yeah, I mean, I I think it's a really good question. It's like, how do you keep these investors happy? So, yes, we do need to have regular communication with them. Yes, we do need to have one-on-ones with them. Yes, we need really tight, good information that we can count on. I can't say, I can say I I I try to do number one, but because I don't have number three, which is the good information, I'm failing. So I over-rely on number two, which is the individual communication. But that's a great strategy, though. It's it's all I can do.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, well, because here I I'll testify, like what I've really appreciated about how you operate in that vein, is you never you you always bring clarity and you bring it quickly, or or you bring truth. True. What you know is truth, right? Like, I mean, and and part of the truth is is like by saying I don't know. Right. Because I think where a lot of people might find themselves in problems is is you know, especially in a small new starting business, you don't want like it's our human nature to not look stupid or ignorant about something.

SPEAKER_06:

Or to oversell.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and to oversell because you don't want to lose that confidence. But if you start trying to have any kind of dialogue of making something look better than what it is, you're gonna start finding yourself in a lot of hot water, especially Dude, are you ever especially with the investor? Most important, most especially with investors, I'd say second's the bank and then your your client. Oh, yeah. I mean, because on the client side, you know, it's not much about numbers that it is deliverables and executing the contract, right? Yep. But I've never seen it where that doesn't bot you in the butt either.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, but even back on the client side on another issue, back on the billing.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh yeah. I I will never forget, I don't know that I ever mentioned it in this podcast, but there was a time where one of our guys um had charged a Domino's pizza delivery to a client project, and the client was based in Ohio, and we were in Massachusetts. Did I ever tell you this story? No. So I have the woman who does the billing for consulting comes to me and she goes, hey, she goes, Mark, it goes, so-and-so charged this$20 Domino's pizza delivery, this job. And you know, I don't feel right about like putting that on the client expense report. I go, Yeah, I get why you don't. They're based in Ohio. We're here in Massachusetts. I don't understand that. So I called the guy in and he says, Yeah, I did that. He goes, I was coming back, I was at the airport, and I thought, well, I could either eat at the airport or I could wait till I get home at 10 o'clock and then order a Domino's and just eat that at home. I'm like, you're kidding me, right? He goes, No. I said, what do you think the client is gonna think if they audit our bill and you have an effing$20 Domino's pizza at your house at 10 o'clock at night, charged to their job? They're gonna think we're criminals. You can't do that.

SPEAKER_04:

You lose all of the client's business for a$20 pizza. Yeah. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_06:

Anyway, it's hard to track, but I mean No, but that's a great point, though.

SPEAKER_04:

I mean, like doing things like this, some folks may not see a problem with that. He didn't. But if you're a small business owner and you have a staff, you know, that's what I like. A lot of folks don't realize is like it's not just your confidence in the client, but it's your team's confidence, and you can't watch everything all the time. No, you can't. You know, but you have to manage it somehow. You have to be able to rectify those things. Thank God.

SPEAKER_06:

I mean, I wanted to fire the guy on the spot, but my other partners wouldn't let me. He was a low-level partner.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, he just didn't understand, he didn't realize the consequences of it.

SPEAKER_06:

But that told me there's some kind of major disconnect with this dude that you would do something like that. You know what I mean? I'm like, what's wrong with this guy's wiring? He doesn't understand how that's gonna be perceived by the client. Get real. But to go back to what you were saying about deliverables, I don't want to cut you off on that.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, I mean, I'm just thinking like if if I sign a scope at work with you and I'm saying I'm gonna do A, B, C, D, and E. Right. And you sign as that's part of the business, you know, to ensure you take that scope of work and those deliverables back to the team and that you make sure you're executing. Oh, absolutely. But if you start saying, if you try to start ignoring two of the lines because you just haven't had the time to do it or whatever, or you just don't think it's necessary.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, but the client, and the client's not asking you. Yeah, you said you were gonna do this. But you you could get away with that for a while. But uh, when it comes time to re-scope or whatever, they're gonna scrutinize that.

SPEAKER_06:

Man, that is very true. I've been there before on that one. Yeah. Where we said we'd do certain things that we didn't do because they didn't drive us to do it. But then at the end, when it comes to the renewal of the annual agreement, they're like, wait a minute, you guys said you're not doing that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, did it? It's so true. It drives me crazy. And I think that anybody can understand this that you have a responsibility as a business owner that if I say I'm gonna do this for this exchange of currency that you're gonna give to me, yeah, I'm the one that needs to be driving that. It's as the service provider, not the cut client or customer. And it is so rampant in today's time. Oh man, I'm gonna be able to do that. And the construction industry is the god-awful worst industry in the world about this. Oh my god. It's so incredibly terrible. Uh-huh. They say they're going to do things and then they make you chase them to start organizing and detailing their job. I've actually had I've had that, I've never not had that happen to me.

SPEAKER_06:

I've been in the business. I know exactly what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_04:

Anytime I assign somebody, like if they're going to come fix a wall in your house, you're the one that has to manage their work that they did everything that they're going to do. Because they're just going to keep sending you bills. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06:

And then you have to watch their bills for them. I view them as pimps, most general contractors. They just pimp out individual service providers, whether they're companies or individuals. So there's no quality control and no coordination. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04:

Like I don't understand why that's so hard. That's what your markup is for.

SPEAKER_06:

Exactly. That's why I'm paying you your 15 or 20 percent on the deal. It's your job.

SPEAKER_04:

You keep the spreadsheet. You make sure the bills are coming in correctly. If there's something wrong, you have the explanation, you warn, you asked before things get done.

SPEAKER_06:

This is why there's such an opportunity in so many businesses today. That's it. You just pointed out a perfect illustration. What's one of the highest failure rates of small business? Contractors. What's why? They do a shitty job. Okay. If you come in and you just do what you say you're gonna do and you actually manage the job and you actually manage the quality, and you actually go out on the job site and see to it that your subs are doing what they're supposed to do that you said you were gonna do for the client. You win, you win. You'll get all the business. It's just it's just not that hard.

SPEAKER_04:

It's not. And I think it's applicable towards any type of business. Like I think it is. My experience was, I mean, back in White Spider Days, like we just would we would do our absolute best to deliver on everything that we did. Now we we weren't ever at 100%. I mean, that's that's really hard to do. Of course, nobody is. But you're striving for it. You're striving for it. And and if you come to the table and you didn't deliver, you're honest about that lack of delivery. And even better, if you come to the client and say, hey, we're not gonna be able to accomplish what we said here, but we're gonna do X, Y, and Z, or I will do it pro bono for you on the next deal that we do. Right. Or something. Or we're doing something different that's gonna work better, and this is why we changed. And it's and that's how we won. I mean, at White Sparter, we just relentlessly just service the client, the best absolute best ability.

SPEAKER_06:

I try to get my students to understand this. Uh, like if I give an assignment on a paper and I go, you're or project, you're supposed to come up with recommendations to increase revenue, increase profit, increase value of the business, and reduce the risk. And then all your recommendations are about marketing. What did you not read the freaking requirements here? Okay. That why wouldn't you recast that and say, here are my recommendations to do?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Blah, blah, blah. It's it's just it's hard for people to understand that. If you don't do that, there's a disconnect, there's a feeling that you didn't get what you're paying for, they weren't listening. It goes on. But I want to go back, um, I think that's a really important point here for small business owners to understand. I wanted to go back to this whole investor bit for a minute. Please. If we can. Because I think it's a really interesting topic. Um you know, one thing I would say about outside invest, you know, well, obviously, once you take on outside investors, you've got a whole different set of responsibilities. Yeah. Right? And you've got to listen to these people. 100%. But, you know, you've also got to be smart about picking your outside investors. Yeah. You got to get people who understand the risk that they're getting involved with, and people who can contribute more than money, I think. 100%. In a small business. They've got to have some expertise they also bring to the table.

SPEAKER_04:

Expertise, connections. Connections, yes. Right? Yeah. Um, I mean, even general, I mean, like even expertise like within the financial side of things. It doesn't have to be expertise just in your trade. You know, but just could be in a discipline, whatever it is. Or even where you're trying to go is a good one too. Like it may not be what you're doing today, but you're trying to franchise or something. It's great to have somebody who's been through that process.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, absolutely. Or building up the cell, what do you need to do? I mean, yeah. Or marketing. Yep. Okay. Um, you know, there's just a million different things. That's one thing. Um, for also, um, one thing I did want to mention to our our uh listeners that I think has very been very interesting. It's been a huge learning process for me, is going through this Wefunder.com app um program, which um, you know, I thought it was just for startups, but it is a way for existing companies to raise capital. Yeah. And I've sent several of my friends with different businesses to them to do it. But basically, it's sort of a quasi public offering that you can go out with. Um, now there's a lot of work, a lot of Lot more work to get ready for it than I realized.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Because you've got to comply with SEC requirements because you are doing basically a direct public offering.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay. But it allows you to bring in people who can only invest very small amounts of money. They don't have to all be uh, whatever the term is, not qualified investors, accredited investors, accredited investors. Okay. So, like you and me, if we invest in a company, a lot of people don't realize this. You have to have a certain net worth outside of your house and certain amount of income in order to be able to legally invest in some of these businesses. It's not like we could just take 50 grand from your grandma and put it into podcast videos if grandma is not an accredited investor. Okay. But once you go to something like WeFunder, it opens the door to these other people.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay. So you don't have to be an accredited investor to participate in a WeFunder.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, which I think is really cool. Um there's a lot of work you got to go through, but it is a vehicle that I think many small businesses, especially those that are successful or startups both, um, have a way of going out to a broader audience and non-accredited investors to get capital.

SPEAKER_04:

So what's the value other than obviously capital and they don't have to be accredited? I mean, what's the value of doing that form of raise versus private?

SPEAKER_06:

Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of value. I mean, first off, is they're not going to necessarily be trying to redirect your business.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Do they sit on the board?

SPEAKER_06:

No. They all invest in one vehicle, and that vehicle has the ownership in your business. They have the stock. Okay, so there's one individual who's appointed as a lead investor. From is it from Wii Funder? Front, no, it's one of the investors in the Wii Funder. Yeah, it's in the Wii Funder pool of investors. Okay, I got you. But that person is your lead investor. So you only have one entrant entry on your cap table, and and they're not going to be the same as getting a million dollars from Joe over there. Right. You see what I mean? Right, right. And Joe's got a voice, you better be listening to, right?

SPEAKER_04:

Right, because he just put it a million bucks in the company. Yeah. So this lead investor, do they sit on the board? Do they have voting rights or anything?

SPEAKER_06:

They have voting rights as um toward in in I mean, it's all a matter of the rules that you said. Okay. But let's say in the case um right now that that I'm involved with, um, they would only have a vote toward election of the board of directors. Okay. In accordance with their share of ownership. Got you. So they're not coming to all the board meetings and representing their no, no, no, no, no, no. None of that.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. So it's just, I mean, that's the only thing that so the lead investor would represent the pool of which represents X percent of the total outstanding equity. Yeah. Okay. Um, total outstanding shares out there. But anyway, I think it's a very interesting um opportunity for people. We fund or take 7.8% of the funds that were raised. Yes, as their fee, but they're extremely organized and they keep you compliant. But it but again, it goes back to our original thing that we were talking about is you cannot make any representations on the value of this investment, that it's gonna be worth X dollars in 25 years or whatever. Do you have to start out with a valuation of the company? Oh, you got no, you don't have to, you set the value.

SPEAKER_04:

You just set the value to whatever.

SPEAKER_06:

You set the value where you want to do it. If people want to invest in that on based on that, they can. If they don't want to, they don't.

SPEAKER_04:

But you're not gonna you can't allude to it's gonna be if you put in a hundred bucks a day, it's gonna be worth$10,000 in two years.

SPEAKER_06:

No.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

No. You don't you don't want to do anything like that. That's where you get yourself in real trouble. Yeah. Well, that's yeah, it's deceitful, right? Yeah, or maybe you think you're gonna do that, but you but you're wrong. Yeah. I mean, it's it's you know, but the point is you can't mislead, you can't oversell it. Um, which again, it goes back to the fundamental um tenet of bringing outside investors in. I think the tendency of a lot of people is to oversell.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

And create an expectation that's not realistic and not accurately um convey the risk associated with um what the investor is doing. So the a big value with the You want to keep good relationships, don't oversell. Right.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, no, exactly. The thing is with the WeFunder, it's kind of a pure capital play, right? Because you're not getting really any experts out of that. No, you're not. Just a pure capital play, but they only take one seat on the voting of the board. Right, as a shareholder. So they're very much a silent capital partner. Correct. And then you can go raise additional capital from strategic capital partners. You can. They would put in half a million or a million, and but they have a seat potentially at the board, on the board. Potentially, sure. But then they have a voice that can misdirect the company, and so that's where you start getting into a little hot mess. Yeah. Potentially. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06:

You get a little hot mess. That's a good way to look at it. So, yeah, I mean, I think again, it it all goes back to dealing with investors, giving them regular information.

SPEAKER_04:

So, question on that we funder too. What about like we were talking we've been talking about, communication? Do you is there a lot of communication after the WeFunder campaign, the investment comes in that you have to come back to?

SPEAKER_06:

I would think I don't know whether you're formally required to or not, but I would think it would be in your best interests. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

Because you may want to do another round. Exactly. I mean, you want to keep the support of these people.

SPEAKER_04:

So it seems like to me, like is and I imagine that we funder, there's um, you know, if you participated, I mean, there's people probably sure investing in just random Wii funder campaigns.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh, there are. There's people that have a high net worth that say maybe five or ten percent of my my um. Portfolio is being invested in we funders. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Because it's probably high risk, but higher potential return. Not much money that you gotta put in. Right, exactly. And so you kind of spread your you spread your odds out like you're going to uh the casino a little bit.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, it's like anybody who's got any kind of assets. You know, you got your portfolio. I mean, you got some of it sitting there and stuff that's really secure. I know, I think it is. I mean, it's like investing in penny stocks or something. Yeah. You know, there's there's there's some things that could hit, you might have a lot certain amount of losers, but but I mean, private equity firms operate the same way. I mean, venture capital firms really operate that way, right?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. And so, but but like imagine the WeFunder ecosystem, right? You got these call them professional WeFunder investors. Yeah. And I'm sure that they're looking at the like if they have a bad experience with a company, that that probably doesn't bode well for that company to try to raise funds again within WeFunder ecosystem. No. But if they have it's kind of like the ratings and reviews for a product on e-commerce. Oh, yeah, exactly. So can they rate and review the companies that they invest in? We don't know. That'd be the answer to that. No, because that would be a reason to very much be in communication. Yeah, it would.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, I think if your stuff performs, I mean, obviously then you're gonna get it.

SPEAKER_04:

Then you get the five star, right? Yeah, exactly. But I think until then you might be getting four stars for being somebody that's actually communicating back to the to the investment pool.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. So I think it's uh this whole communication is is really in being realistic and not overselling and not um underestimating the power of the individual uh um outreach, there's just a whole lot of things that kind of coalesce to come up with a good relationship with your investors. But I mean, ultimately, though, yeah, let's have a company that performs.

SPEAKER_04:

No, 100%. Okay. Yeah, you want to deliver good news. But if you can't deliver good news, the next best thing is to deliver bad news as fast as possible. Like, I mean Exactly. That's what I'm guessing. Um one of my big points I want to make sure people get. Because I've learned a lot watching you over the years, and you've always been so good at like we have a problem and it just happened.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And this is what I'm seeing. I'm digging in, we're digging in as a team. And then when you do dig in, you come back and you you you let everybody know as soon as possible. And that's that goes such a long way because any any good investor that's most likely has is in business themselves, they understand that, like we've always say, business is nothing but problems.

SPEAKER_06:

It's just nothing but problems, yeah. And so But are you dealing with your problems? Right. That's the question.

SPEAKER_04:

That is the question. But you Yeah, but how do you figure them out? And if you got people on the team that are literally running the like that's what running the business is dealing with freaking problems constantly and just figuring your way out through them. And that's if I'm an investor and I see a group of people that are that are attacking the problems and not just gives you a little more faith that maybe a little bit crazy, right? Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

But you said it earlier, you you just touched on it a minute ago. It's also your bank. Banks don't like surprises. Trevor Burrus, Jr. They're in the exact same boat. They are, except they're even m ultra, ultra risk averse because they can't afford not to be. It's not that they're bad people or anything like that. They just can't afford to be take on any risk. I mean, people don't understand. Banks are a business. Yeah. They got a very low margin. They pay X dollars for their money, they lend it out for Y dollars. That gap has to cover all their space, all their marketing, all their people, all their legal compliance, all their insurance, every single thing they do, plus make a profit. And when you look at that, that gap, that difference is just not that great. Yeah. One bad loan, and they got to have 50 loans that go that make money. Let me ask you.

SPEAKER_04:

Let me ask you a question too.

SPEAKER_06:

Give them the info.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, but let me ask you this question, because I think this is really good. Is there a such thing as an overcommunication? I don't think so. Yeah, that's what I was hoping you'd say. Like, because if I was a banker and investor, and I have you're over here and you keep talking to me. I mean, yeah, you might annoy me. Yeah. But at the end of the day, I would know I would feel good about wherever we're at. Like I know that you're keeping me up to speed, and so therefore, I'll be more apt to lend you money exactly in the future.

SPEAKER_06:

It's when you shut up and there's no communication at all. It's like you'd put your head in the sand. That's they they're like, okay. Something bad's going on. What's gonna where's the shoe gonna drop now?

SPEAKER_04:

And then like to this point, let's say that you lent me money and I go silent, but I'm actually just because I'm so buried in the weeds of making sure this business is running, that's still inexcusable. It is. It's you're creating problems for yourself. You're creating suspicion. Yes, creating suspicion. That's it. That is it. Because when everybody, I mean, you know, I think the one big disconnect with what this has been my experience as an entrepreneur. A big disconnect is that if I'm an entrepreneur and I'm bootstrapping, I have no money. Yeah, I'm actually floating money everywhere, trying to make it, right? Yeah. And in my brain, I don't have any idea what it's like to have money. And so therefore, I'm like, you know, if you gave me money, I don't feel like that I owe you anything. I think that you're over there dogging it like I'm dogging it, but that's not really what's happening. You're giving me money, and I need to be in that line of communication. I need to understand what the person's seat is like that just gave me money.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, the reason they've got money is they're not stupid. Okay. Let's let's take that as a presumption right there. That's very good. You know, so they're gonna be questioning things. I I it is, you know, that is another point I'm glad you brought up, though. Is so you get these outside investors that put money into your business, okay? And in some kind sometimes they're propping it up, other times they're giving you the gas that you need to be able to grow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

The employees of that business, okay. They need to know who the heck is propping them up if you're losing money, and somehow you gotta get the idea across to them that it's not an unlimited source of funds over here, that we can't keep operating like we are losing money. Okay. That that's that's that to me is one of the greatest challenges.

SPEAKER_04:

So you're basically saying like people get used to to where the money's coming from and feel like they're gonna get saved again and again and again and again.

SPEAKER_06:

We always get bailed out. No matter what we do, we get bailed out. That's dangerous as hell, man. Oh my God, that's so dangerous. It's so and and especially just let's just again, I'm not trying to generalize.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Let's say you got a bunch of forty, fifty, sixty thousand dollar, seventy thousand dollar people salary-wise who aren't they're not savvy business people. They do stuff, okay? They can be bookkeepers, they can be well, whatever the hell they are, okay? They see those outsiders as just rich. They're rich. They probably didn't deserve it. They can lose this money. They can lose this money. Okay, it won't make any difference to them.

SPEAKER_04:

They just put in as much as I make in a year in one day, and so therefore they can afford exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

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SPEAKER_06:

And see, man, that I think management and ownership of the business needs to communicate to these employees where this money's coming from, the background of these people, why they got the money that they did, and what the expectations are to perform based on that. If you really want to put the whole picture together, yeah. Can't just be between you as the founders slash owner managers and the outside investors. These employees have got to be brought into the picture to quote, get it.

SPEAKER_04:

You know what we're talking about, and it's kind of striking me, I mentioned it a minute ago, but we're talking about gaps and relatability between different people. It doesn't matter what walk of life or anything, but this whole money gap scenario. Yes. Because if if you let's say that I received a million dollars for my business, yeah, and I have somebody on my team that's making fifty thousand dollars a year.

SPEAKER_06:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

And if that fifty thousand dollar a year person could relate to the significance of receiving that capital, and they took that mentality and they started driving like hell. Yes. What do you think that I would do? You would be happy. I would be happy. I would, I would be, I would watch that person, I would bring them in more into the Because they're thinking like an owner.

SPEAKER_06:

Yes. I know.

SPEAKER_03:

That's the secret right there, right?

SPEAKER_04:

It is. And it's the same thing. If you're a small business owner and you're going out and you raise capital with investors, or you get a big loan with a bank, yeah, and you can see in your mind and get not like what I was when I was an entrepreneur earlier on in my entrepreneur career.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, not not like you are now. Okay. You get it. I I kind of get it.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm almost getting it. I feel like I'm almost there. I'm getting closer, but I'm still got this old mentality of this difference, like where but if I could say this bank just gave me a million, right? That's a huge trust mark. What's what are they thinking in their seat on a day? What is their pre like I can think of that all day long for a client? That's one of my strengths, is I can literally put myself in my in their chair. You do that.

SPEAKER_06:

That's why you serve your client so well.

SPEAKER_04:

100%. And you know, I learned that from waiting tables.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, well, it's a great experience really. Well, it is.

SPEAKER_04:

I mean, like to sit down and I'm about to spend$30 on this meal, it better be freaking an epic experience. You know, and that's my job.

SPEAKER_06:

Today, our expectations are 30 bucks. I could spend that at a fast food place, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04:

But but the thing, but if I can do that as an entrepreneur and I get that investment, and then I'm locked into saying they need to have rapid communication, they need to have updated correspondence formally, relationally. And I now I'm looking at you as my investor as like a part of my ecosystem.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

And I owe you these comms. Yeah. And that's now my job. Like, that's going to bowl very well for me. And now my investors are going to be like, dude, even if this business doesn't work, this guy, this is. And you have faith in these people. And guess what? You as an investor with your other portfolio pieces, there might be another company out there that's really sucking. Their CEO or their founder is really not communicating at all, but their business is kind of all right. Yeah. But my business sucked and it went down the twos, but I communicated to you the whole time.

SPEAKER_06:

Guess what might happen? You might put me in charge of that business. I know.

SPEAKER_04:

It it is This is so interesting to me. Why are we like that as humans?

SPEAKER_06:

I don't know. I don't know what it is. There's there's a natural um tendency of people, I think, to resent other people who have more than they have. Yeah. Okay. And to I don't know whether it's jealousy, envy, rationalization, or what.

SPEAKER_04:

But I think it goes down into like this um it's the same. I mean, it it's it's this this the self-esteem, confidence, self-image that we have. Like if you are doing better and I'll I might try to knock you down by say talking some smack about you. Yeah. So that way I don't feel as bad as what I do. Because I'm the the truth and honest to it, like if you were a bodybuilder, right? Yeah. And I'm over here and I got a spare tire wrapped around my freaking waist and my fatness.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Like I'm actually I'll hate on you, but I'm actually kind of jealous of that. Yeah. But the difference is that you're more disciplined than I am. You put in a lot more effort than I have by going working out, eating right, every decision. I mean, like it's not easier for you than it is me. Right. But because I'm a little jealous and I just want to be instantly have a six-pack like you, then I'm going to knock you down. Yeah. But the reality is that I'm actually a little jelly.

SPEAKER_06:

This is a really dangerous thing. And I think a lot of people don't, they only think about the investor and their connection with management slash founder. Yeah. And that that other piece of it is this these people and this culture over here. Yeah. Okay. And and it's it's a it's a really big struggle.

SPEAKER_04:

You know what's dawning on me too in this discussion? What's that? So, like, one thing I can say about White Spider is our culture was absolutely f fantastic. Yeah. Like, and I would express that or articulate that if there was somebody interested in investing or acquire. But I'd but I would stop. There and but I wouldn't push to get that them to experience that in a better way. Like I owed it to the investor, but I also owed it to the team. And so as a business owner, mean to bring those things like how like I should have been more insistent on bringing those together so that they could both of them could see to our discussion.

SPEAKER_06:

That's a really interesting point, is maybe get more physical interaction between the two.

SPEAKER_04:

Why why wouldn't have I invited them over more? Why wouldn't I have have joined have had had gone to any one of my employees say, hey, I'm about to jump on a line with such and such. That's a good join me with this and I'm going to introduce you.

SPEAKER_06:

So they could be that attached. That's really smart and see that they're just people like you are and just trying to make it make it better between everybody. Yeah. That's a really, really good point. And that's my job. Like I am like we Well, you create a good culture in the place.

SPEAKER_04:

No, it is. I mean, I I believe in that, like with the team, but I don't do a good job on bringing the other parties all together so that we all experience that. Because to be honest with you, as an investor, a lot of times these investors have been successful, they got bought out, now they got cash and they're investing. But you know what? They're missing the team camaraderie. That's why they're investing. You're so right. They go sit on a board with a bunch of other people that are like them, sort of. Yeah, and then it stagnates and it becomes this pompous, arrogant scenario that a lot of them hate. But there's no, I mean, dude, I got folks on my team right now that I'm actually I I love for you know, people that have achieved, you know, a level of success that can come meet they energized. I love your people.

SPEAKER_06:

I come in here and I always feel good. In fact, just today I had coffee with one of my former students who I'm helping out with her business before this podcast. And she's thinking about, she graduates in um at the end of next semester. Okay. She's a really sharp woman. Okay. She's got her own photography business, she's a hustler, she's she's pretty. She's a producer to me. I gave her your info and I said, you should contact Eric. I go, I don't know if he's got any apet opportunities in his businesses, but he knows how to create a really good work environment. That's exactly what I told her. Because she's articulate, she's a good writer, she's extremely well spoken, she can deal with people, uh, customers, clients, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04:

Deal with problems. I'll tell you what, this might be some good advice for a new entrepreneur. I hire more often now based upon the people that I meet, and then I create the role.

SPEAKER_06:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04:

Versus creating roles and descriptions and then going to trying to find a call if I can.

SPEAKER_06:

It's so much harder. Why not go with design your business around the talents? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Somebody that can meet me over coffee, look me in the eyes, tell me who they are, make me feel like they're what's their ambition in life. They're energized. What's their energy and their attitude? How excited are they to be successful?

SPEAKER_06:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04:

And then guess how discipline. I don't have a role for you, but you know what? I've done it multiple times where I'm like, dude, you're hired. We're gonna start out here. Yeah, I don't know what I got something you can do. Anybody that has that like they're immediately I'm gonna think client facing or sales, always looking for that. People go out there and campaign, build the business. Come on, man.

SPEAKER_06:

I but but see, it's it's so I had somebody like that sitting in front of me who I've known now for like let's say a year and a half, because I had her as a student, too, yeah. Before this semester, and you know, and I know you, and I know the way you run your business and the kind of morale that you have, and you create this feeling of fun. Yeah, 100%. It's just it it it always surrounds you, okay. I mean, I've known you when you had nothing and you were down on you know, and you had some bad stuff going on in your personal life and everything else, but you still you're always fun to be around. Yeah, you're fun to be around. Yeah, and so yeah, but I but I'm so glad um I'm so glad you came up with this idea of getting your investors together with your employees.

SPEAKER_04:

Dude, it's it's magical, actually. That's what that's what makes great things happen. Yeah, and and I would say even the bank.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So uh my bank, you're too bad. About a year ago, and I actually had my bank out, and then here goes my ignorance again. My banker came up, one of my bankers for the business came up and said, Hey, are you guys gonna do another podcast videos end of the year get together? Like you did last year. Because they came last year and they got to meet the staff and the team, got to hear our strategy and vision for the future. And we're not asking them for any money. Yeah, we're just incorporating them into the business so that they know what the hell we're doing in our vision. Yes, yes. But they specifically ask if we're gonna do it. I'm like, and I brush it off like, I don't think so. But what kind of an idiot am I? I know, you're right to not do that again because like you would be invited, you know, a lot of other folks I know, the banks, you know, potential investors. Like, come hear what we're up to. Yeah, we're not even asking for money right now. Right. We're just showing you we got something cool.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and you're cool. People are interested in the cool. We're cool, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Everything's cool.

SPEAKER_06:

That's the way business is done. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_04:

Instead of running around desperate. Uh like, and so I think the message here, a good message for the audience. If you know, when you're thinking about raising capital, think about it in a different way. Who are you bringing into the organization? And when you do, do you know what that means? You're talking about a really a relation. Same thing with banks, same thing with customers, same thing when you hire people. What are you building here?

SPEAKER_06:

Well, that's that you know, back on you said the same thing with customers. Yeah, it's so true. Um, one thing I want to do this year at the motorcycle company is every sale that comes in, I just don't want to see uh my daily, oh, we sold two of these and one of these report. I want to see who bought that. What's their what's their profile? What's their profile and give that to everybody in the place so they go, now I've got a personal connection. Oh, Joe, he learned about us two years ago. He was at this event and met Steve, and Steve was such a cool guy and he loved the product that he's been thinking about buying. You know what I mean? Yeah give them some background. So then when they're working on that bike and and getting ready to deliver it to the customer, they feel a tighter bond with the customer and more uh of commitment to make them happy. 100%.

SPEAKER_04:

You know what I mean? 100%. Sounds like to me you're doing you're wanting to start some storytelling. Oh, stop it.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, hey, we're we're out of time.

SPEAKER_04:

Storytelling. We're gonna leave it at that, folks. Mark is a really great storyteller. And that's what he does for his business. He storytells.

SPEAKER_06:

Thank you for storytelling with us today, Mark. Just don't Google that. Or no, don't go into LinkedIn and put storyteller in the profile selection. No. But when you do, you will see how many storytellers there are out there. It'll blow your freaking millions of storytellers. No, I'm not telling stories. But anyway, um, no, I think this is some good stuff. It's fun. Good, good to be here with you again. I got enlightened again. I got enlightened by you. I feel good. I do too. I'm ready to roll, baby. I am too. Just go fix some more freaking problems. It's it's time to wrap it up today. Um, we still are looking for a sponsor. Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

Hey, we were talking about that earlier, though. We were. We don't ask the the people we know to sponsor us. No, we don't. We just do it on the podcast episode. I know. We should we should get a lot of people. No one's listening cares about us.

SPEAKER_06:

Anyone who's got anything they're trying to sell to small business owners could benefit from having us hawk in their project. Oh, dude. Like we've talked about before. You know? Hey, if you're the what about a hat man? Why what about Woolrich? I don't know. We should get Woolwich. Why don't Woolrich sponsor us? They they should, except nobody's called them.

SPEAKER_03:

That's what we gotta do. That's what we need to do. We need to call some people.

SPEAKER_06:

All right. Well, hey, it's been great being with you as it always is, my friend. Yes, sir. And uh let's wrap it up. This has been another episode of Big Talk Talk about Small Business.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Big Talk About Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com, and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business. And be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes, and ask questions about upcoming shows.