Big Talk About Small Business

Ep. 123 - From Chick-fil-A to Cityscapes: Building Without a Safety Net | With Cameron Clark

• Big Talk About Small Business • Season 1 • Episode 123

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The empty building at the corner isn’t an eyesore, it’s a question waiting for a brave answer. We sit down with developer Cameron Clark to unpack how a mid-century church becomes a walkable hub and why “public art with a P&L” might be the most honest way to describe thoughtful real estate.

Cameron traces an unconventional path from Chick-fil-A to licensed apparel to small-scale development, sharing the service mindset that still shapes his projects. He breaks down a real Fayetteville redevelopment: anticipating traffic and safety concerns, adding crosswalks and park connections, and inviting supporters to speak up when NIMBY voices dominate hearings. We get into the messy middle, rezoning, planning commission, city council, and the tactics that align a project with adopted plans to earn staff support. If you’re curious how design decisions become political wins, this is the blueprint.

We also talk about the risk math nobody sees on Instagram. Cash flow droughts. Personal guarantees that pull spouses into the arena. The overhead trap that pressures developers into bad deals. Cameron’s strategy is plain: keep a lean team, raise smart capital, prefer singles and doubles over moonshots, and focus on Northwest Arkansas where community, trails, and neighborhood retail compound value. From condo conversions near Wilson Park to practical re-tenanting, he shows how modest, human-scaled projects can change how people live day to day.

For founders and builders, Cameron’s advice is direct: find mentors, do the work, and build for the long game. Attention spans are short, entitlement timelines are not, and vision only matters if it survives hearings, budgets, and weather. If you care about walkability, NIMBY dynamics, local development, and the real grind behind “vibrant streets,” you’ll leave with a sharper lens and a few battle-tested tactics.

Enjoyed the conversation? Follow the show, share this episode with a friend who loves cities, and leave a review to help more builders find us. 

Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!

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Opening Rant On Work Ethic

SPEAKER_04

He's got a situation where basically his income is unlimited based on his performance. This guy could double or triple his income in a year. It would be life-changing for him. And yet it's not that important to him. It just freaking blows me away.

SPEAKER_02

Some people are never gonna change. I think in the in the development space, you just have to expect that we need some people who are in favor of this stuff to come speak out.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. It's the complainers talk, but the supporters don't.

Meet Cameron Clark

SPEAKER_04

Anyway, we are here with another episode of that big talk about small business. And we've got a guest in the studio. Um was that awkward?

SPEAKER_02

I liked it. Okay, Chris. The energy it can't be made its way over here, too. So fantastic. Um we we feel like I've listened to y'all enough to understand there was something like that coming.

SPEAKER_04

Well, we've we've got a guest here. And this guy, he is a son of a friend of mine, Ben Clark. Who has been on a show? This is Ben's been on the show. This is Cameron Clark. And Cameron is deceptive. Okay. Nice. That's a good way to answer it. It's deceptive because he looks young, but he's got a tremendous amount of entrepreneurial experience. Awesome. Um, the guy has done everything. Um, he started out working at Chick-fil-A, like his dad makes every kid. He says, Oh, really? Which he did himself, which of course that's where you learn how to be a really good service provider. 100%. Get in the food industry. Agreed.

SPEAKER_02

Everybody should do it. Love it or hate it, you know, it'll it'll leave a good scar.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. It's good for you. Well, love it or hate, Chick-fil-A, their service and the way they treat their customers beats everybody else. It really does.

SPEAKER_03

It's just why people keep going back. It is. Like it's a pleasant experience every time. You know it's going to be on time. It's always good quality. Yeah. It's dependable. But the people, I mean, it's always better. How may I help you? Yeah. They're nice.

SPEAKER_04

They smile.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. What's the one thing they cannot say? They can't say um You're welcome. You're welcome. They can't say you're welcome. They say my pleasure.

SPEAKER_04

Oh. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good.

SPEAKER_02

Why why what's the difference? What's I don't know. I think that was a true is a I don't I think I know it was a true at Kathy thing. I don't know why he did it, but um that was what he instilled from the get-go.

SPEAKER_03

It's my pleasure. Yeah, it's your pleasure. So I guess because it's it's more first person. My pleasure. Yeah. To serve. To serve. You're wealthy for me.

SPEAKER_04

Right. So he was there seven years. The last

Lessons From Chick-Fil-A And Apparel

SPEAKER_04

job you had was director of business development. Is that right? At Chick-fil-A, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh well, no, that was it. That was at Be Unlimited. That was that was the that was high high school days. But I was a night night manager, a night manager at Chick-fil-A. Okay. So was closing, closing down the restaurant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And yeah, I mean Okay, then be unlimited. Yeah, that's right. Then Be Unlimited, which is a company that sells t-shirts, new shirts, basically, and across the nations, right? Yeah, primarily college apparel, cliche apparel for to uh Greek life, fraternities and sororities. Fashion. It's a big business, very successful. And um, so you did that. And then how did you get into real estate?

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, through so kind of be unlimited to real estate. Uh like you said, my dad um has be unlimited the licensed apparel company, be unlimited. And so through college, that's what I did through college, from starting to taking t-shirts and pulling them off the dryer when they're going through the pr the the press um and uh to doing sales, the traveling around the different college universities. And it was a lot of fun. I mean, the the team, I mean, I mean, you've got to you both both of y'all got to interact with, I'm sure, different folks there. The the energy is amazing. And but my wife Lindsay wasn't doing residential real estate. And we were I mean, kind and kind of I mean, somewhat similar to your story, but like we're on small remodels.

Finding A Calling In Development

SPEAKER_02

And so we were we were buying houses and just doing small little remodels, not at your scale by any means, but like I'd love with much better quality and class and style.

SPEAKER_04

Go ahead. That's impossible. No, it's not at all. Um, it's not at all. This guy's got a good sense of style. His stuff is good, it looks good.

SPEAKER_02

No, my my my wife does. Um but uh but no, I I I'd love the touch and feel. I was like, this is and I mean and growing up here, to me, it was like this is a physical like legacy. Right. I don't know, I don't even know if I was using that word at the time, but I was like, this is sure, yeah. This and this is a way like the the investment side, the the legacy piece, the the interactive piece, the culture side, it just like to me it was it was like my DNA was coming into one industry. And uh um I didn't know that development or commercial brokerage were gonna was gonna be the path. But uh as I knew I wanted to leave Be Unlimited and do my own thing. Um and my dad's fantastic, the team is amazing, but just I think I saw my dad be an entrepreneur his whole life, and it was like without without me vocalizing it, it's like, man, this is this is my path.

SPEAKER_03

That's right. Yeah you felt it in your blood, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, I guess felt it in my blood in the blood.

SPEAKER_04

You can't control it, you can't over your yes, okay.

SPEAKER_03

I just said something like that on LinkedIn. It's true. I just wrote a little story about that like two days ago.

SPEAKER_02

You gotta be crazy.

SPEAKER_04

You do. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. But I was just going back and forth with one of my business partners today, and he sent out a meeting invitation last night for a meeting. And of course, you know, I had to teach till nine o'clock at night, but um, so I got up um at 6 a.m. this morning and I um immediately accepted my invitation. And um, another person who is one of our employees, key employees, he responded to it over five and a half hours later. And you just have to say to yourself, what is he doing? Yeah, is he busier than I am? His job, he should have been online at 6 a.m. this morning for the opportunity that he has. Yeah, yeah. He's got a situation where basically his income is unlimited based on his performance, and yet it's amazing. It's not that important to him. Five, I'll get to it five and a half hours later. I mean, it just freaking blows me away because I know how busy I am. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And they're just missing out. Yeah. Absolutely. This guy could double or triple his income in a year.

Public Art And Proving Skeptics Wrong

SPEAKER_04

It's carpe diem, man. It it's like it would be life-changing for him.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Absolutely life-changing. Well, on this, like, real quick on this post I was talking about, like, talking about entrepreneurship and how American entrepreneur defines an entrepreneur as someone who sees a market need and takes personal financial risk to meet that need. And I was mentioning, I was like, I was doing that then, which meant like back in my early days. Sure. All of us were. And still am today. And I really cannot explain why. Exactly. Except that it must be done and done now. Yeah. It's it's you, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

I have to do, yeah, and you're living your life.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

What else? It's all there is to it. There's one life. It's like you're alive.

SPEAKER_05

You're alive.

SPEAKER_04

It's gonna happen. And the and the real estate development, I mean, it's it's so gratifying. I mean, to me, it's like public art. You know, what you did with those stores over there on Block Street that you bought. I mean, he had like the cleaner, the the um tables and ale. Yeah. Remember that place? Is it not there anymore? No, he bought that building and redid that thing, and it is beautiful. Nice. And it was a dump. Yeah, it was. I mean, it absolute dump. And so you do that, you're improving the environment for all of us.

SPEAKER_02

That's true. Seeing people interact with it is like is the most like rewarding, gratifying, whatever you call it. I obviously we all want to make a good investment, but like that's pretty good. Yeah, that's it's motivating.

SPEAKER_04

You gotta be honest with me on this. When you do a development project, is it the money that motivates you, or is it just the desire to see it happen?

SPEAKER_02

Uh neither. The I think what it's the it's the problem and seeing like I think I love the vision piece of seeing, okay, this is the potential outcome. So you could say money's involved in that. You could say, but I think more than that, realizing like, oh, this is an underutilized deal, piece of property, whatever term you use there. And like, I think I know what we can do here. Um, and then showing everybody, right? Yeah. Show the skeptics. Is this guy crazy? Show the skeptics. Show the critics. Yeah. Uh yeah, I mean, especially just be like nothing is more rewarding than people who are here building

Stigma And Barriers In Fayetteville

SPEAKER_02

here.

SPEAKER_04

And uh but don't you get the feeling doing projects in Fayetteville that the attitude of the general public and the regulatory authorities is that you must be a criminal if you're a developer and you have unlimited funds.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, no, don't you get that feeling? This guy must have been born on third base. He must have, yeah. There was like, yeah, there's no uh I I do think the I mean, yeah, there's all the stigma for sure. I think not just Fayetteville is hard to build, you know, Bitonville is hard to build in now. There's other there's other there's other other barriers or whether it be people or just like sewer capacity or building and safety, what you know, whatever's all else is on that list. I think what I like about Fayetteville is like you know, going high school, college, and still making that my immediate circle. Yeah. And that's your community. It's my community. Yeah, it's your home. I think there's and whether any of these larger families here that have blessed Northwest Arkansas so much, is there I think you can make the argument that like there's there's not like a massive real estate focus from from one of them right now in Fayetteville. And and so maybe hopefully I would love, I'd love, love for more of that to come. It'd be fantastic. But I to me that's the inspiration of like, hey, it's it's taking us regular dudes. We need we need to if if we want to make something happen, whether it be a restaurant, you know, or or a house somebody's living in, like, we gotta go build it. We have to go create it.

SPEAKER_03

You know, what I I mean on that topic, which I know exactly what you're talking about, but Fayetteville's been is you know, you rewind 20 years ago, and I mean Fayetteville was the city from a populist standpoint, from entertainment, all everything that you want to do. There was nothing in Bentonville, people came in Bentonville and Rogers, too.

SPEAKER_04

There was no Pinnacle, there was no downtown Bentonville, there was no Crystal Bridges. Yeah, you went to Fayetteville. Exactly. And we've lost that.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I mean, let's be honest. No, no, no, no. That there's truth to that, but I think that at the same time, there's a core of culture that it it almost it's self-sustaining in a way. And so that's why there's probably not much investment down in there from some of the larger circles, like there has been a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04

Well, we got the university, that's our entry. Yeah, yeah, that that's the the growth driver for Fayetteville. And there's a certain type of population that goes along with that, educated people, you know. But I mean, to me, the the the NIMBYism.

The Church Redevelopment Story

SPEAKER_04

So we were just talking before the show started about a project you're currently doing, which is you bought an underutilized asset. It was a pretty forlorn looking mid-century modern church, abandoned church, right? Yeah. And and you're turning that into um townhouses and and restaurants and other things that I think is gonna be tremendous because it's in the middle of a residential area and it's close to where I live. So I like that. All right. But did you have problems with the NIMBY's? Like, oh my God, what about the traffic? What about the noise? What about the fact that we need more affordable housing and these townhouses are gonna cost 600? Did you hear any of that?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, yeah, we we heard some of that. Yeah. I mean, I think my expectation going into it was like it was we're gonna hear so much of that you could not hear any good noise at all whatsoever. And luckily that wasn't the case. I think my expectations were so low. Like, hey, I are we even gonna be able to get this thing rezoned? You know, are we are we even gonna be able to get this thing you know through large scale? But get it permitted. Because I think it's kind of what you have to, in my opinion, what you have to have when you're going going into this. How do we you have to be optimistic enough to like feel like you can do it, right? Have the expedit costs money. So yeah, you gotta be optimistic. You're restricted, you're spending real money. Yeah, right. I get it. Um But I think the what's what has been crazy is like when we've been out there on site, and then there's a you know um a mom or running by this hat this happened. It's probably mid mid 40s, ran by, raised her fist in the air. I I can't wait for this. Yeah. That that those little moments there, and after confident coffee opened up and has been slammed. Oh, yeah. In that building? No, in old Missouri. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

That's owned by a friend of ours, Amber Deuce. Yeah, she's on the show, too. Yeah, Amber's awesome. But uh, where'd that where's that open up at? It's it's in a new um mixed use, basically townhousey development project, very large, with a it's sort of in the main building.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and she's the core retail name, a little bit of office space.

SPEAKER_04

It has been slammed all the time. Yeah, is that on the crossover? No, it's right on Old Missouri. So it's again, it's in a at the intersection of old Missouri and Rolling Hills. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So, so unlike when you guys do these types of projects and you're expecting the NIMBY switch with acronym for not in my backyard. Yeah. Correct.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, like how do you all handle that? Like, I mean, is it is is the way to handle it to calm, like to calmly bring folks down, show them the plan over and articulating the vision over and over and over again, or you just ignore it, or you fight it?

SPEAKER_02

What I mean, what's the uh you made the comment on traffic. So like let's talk, let's take this township project for an example. One of the NIMBY's was hey, there's gonna be more traffic here. Hey, I record there's track, there's more traffic coming here regardless. We're putting a crosswalk in, we're gonna try to slow traffic down. There's gonna be call there's gonna be more called.

SPEAKER_04

You want to kill my kids walking home from school to the park. You will kill them. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_02

No, I'm sorry. And that's what I mean that that's what yeah, yeah, exactly.

Handling NIMBY Concerns With Design

SPEAKER_02

This is beautiful. I I want to create a safe environment for your kid, actually. Sure. Believe it or not, and believe it or not, I want your kid that's not there, right? Right right now, you're your kid, your kids going looking both ways and running with the bike. You know, it's like, hey, let's let's push the little button that make the makes the flasher go on. Yeah. And now we've got two crosswalks back to back, so people are used to slowing down. Sure. Um it's it's hard though. I mean, it's some I think some people are never gonna change. Yeah. And that's and that's what we I think in the in the development space, you just have to expect that, expect that. And and I think the harder thing is what people don't realize who's on who are on the other side, is we need some people who are in favor of this stuff to come speak out.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. It's the complainers talk, but the supporters don't. Yes. And and the unfortunately, the government, i.e., city council, which is really where the problem is with a lot of municipalities. My sister, she was a city council member in the town I grew up in Kirkwood, Missouri. Yeah. And basically she lost all her friends over, or I shouldn't say lost all her friends, but she lost friends over the fact that generally the development projects she supported.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

For a variety of reasons. Make the town nicer, give people the amenities they want, property tax revenue, increase sales tax revenue, yada yada, provide affordable housing. Okay. But she was she was really out of step with the majority of people who in like our town were basically any development is considered bad.

SPEAKER_03

Any change is bad. So when you're doing these plans, do you like like on the crosswalk example? Yeah, was that something that you you guys and your architects, I'm sure, are pr are premeditating and thinking about? Yeah, was it planned or was it a response? Yeah, or a response.

SPEAKER_02

I think the that was planned, but but as as a part of like, okay, what are the five things people are gonna you know be crying about saying, yeah, these these guys are ruining my next door property? One get like so this one was actually a suggestion from the city, which I think was actually fantastic, was direct access into the park. Hey, we're building a path that connects into the park where if you're walking from the crosswalk, you can walk, you know, across across the parking lot at our our property and go right into the park, even if you don't go to the restaurant. Hopefully you go to the restaurant. Um but just yeah, creating like more synergy there. The you can walk from the park to the restaurant if you're at the park.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. Yeah, you don't need to drive.

SPEAKER_02

No, I I yeah, a stay-at-home mom who's who's there at noon or 11 a.m. can push the stroller right up in there and like grab a coffee and trail system, all links into it.

SPEAKER_04

It's fantastic. Love those trails out of that park, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It's we're and I think the the beautiful thing about the trail system now is like it's as long as you're in this big loop in Fayetteville, you can get anywhere. It's true. It's fantastic. But

Entitlements, Timing, And City Process

SPEAKER_02

it's I mean, it's challenging. You don't know. I mean, what are what are people gonna say? And like what experience have people had in the past? Like, did they know someone who their kid got hit by a car because there was their kid or like whatever.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I was just gonna say one thing, if you let me. Uh even that experience though, I'm just saying, and I'm not trying to be negative when I say this. I would predict that there were people who said, Oh, great, now they're gonna fill up the parking lot at the park to go to this restaurant where there's already not enough parking. When I go over there, the parking lot's full. Did you hear that?

SPEAKER_02

Not not at city council, thankfully. Okay, like, but I mean it's it's a thought. I mean, yeah, people people park everywhere.

SPEAKER_04

Like, sure, yeah, I get it. I I'm just saying that it's uh that's frustrating.

SPEAKER_03

Well, the process is like you guys as a developer working with your planning teams who are privately paid by you, yep, coming up with all this, you go buy the property. I'm assuming that you buy you you buy the property before you go then to the city and say, hey, here's our plans. Depends.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, in a perfect world, you wouldn't close on the property until it's fully entitled, meaning you've got the property rezoned, you've got it through large scale development, you pulled your permits to start grading. But this is what reality happens is is the seller is like, I'm not waiting on you anymore. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Are we buying this thing or not?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because like otherwise you'd Have to sign a contract that's gonna could be nine months long. Yeah, they don't want to wait. Nobody wants to do that. Yeah. So so then you go to but when you take your plans to the council like you before or after you buy the property, but in the in the city in the city is like advising on some additional ideas that they're seeing that can make the this work out. Basically, we are collaborating to get it passed through city council hearing. Yes. Is that right? Well in commission.

SPEAKER_04

The planning commission. And then the city council.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

So you then take the planning commission, all your plans after you talk to the city, then you take, then they approve it, then you go to the city council meeting for a hearing on it, and that's when the NIMBY's have their voice. They come out before and after. They come out at the Planning Commission too. Okay. And what the city councils really were. And I think what I heard you say though earlier, which was interesting to me, is like if if you had a hundred people in the public that showed up, it's 90% of the NIMBY's, and you only have 10% that are anti-NIMBY.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, and and it I don't think it's I think we are not, I'm gonna say we as like a in the developer space, it'd educate people more of

Guarantees, Debt, And Spousal Support

SPEAKER_02

like, hey, if if you're excited about this, please go say something. Yeah. Not even not, you don't you don't have to come to every single meeting or whatever. Just just just come to even if it's online, tune in to Zoom. Tune into Zoom and say, hey, by the way, I cannot wait until there's a restaurant near my house. I'm gonna walk. This is gonna be awesome. Yeah. And I think the lucky thing about this project, like I I really I do give like kudos to the city of Fayetteville for like the specific zoning we got. Like it there is a vision for things like this happening in Fayetteville. Thank God. Um and we happened to fit that box. I think which was like part of the reason where there's yeah, there was NIMBY's on this on this particular deal, but like the staff support was very much there. And it was like, oh, this is I mean, because the inspiration we have from this project two, three years ago, me, my family, and then two other couples, we went to we were in Austin and for a wedding, and we took, we got you know, kids that are all under three, and like we're trying to figure out okay, where can we take our kids that are under three? They can they can run around, we don't have to be anxious, worry, like whatever. We just sit down. Sure. And uh we we went to this neighborhood smoothie coffee breakfast taco spot. And we ended up going three times that week. Wow, because it was relaxing. Yeah, and we could hang out, and it was like, man, that was the inspiration for this project. Yeah, and that's that's not verbatim, the kind of thing that's exactly restaurant going in there, but like conceptually, like we need more of these things here. That's people that's the reason people travel Europe because you want to go exactly in the street.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah, we can make everything walkable, but if there's nothing to walk to, yeah, what you know, what's the what's the point? Well, I didn't want to get too sidetracked on this one project. Let's just talk a little bit more, though, about what it's like. This is your business, right? You're doing these development projects. My experience is wow, if you want to talk about spiky income, that's a hard one. I mean, I had one year where I had nothing to sell for like 11 and a half months of the year. It was just all out, out, out, out. How do you deal with that? Good question.

SPEAKER_02

Is this a therapy session or is it? It always is.

SPEAKER_04

Um it's the cash flow aspect of development and and how do you survive?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I mean, I think the I'm lucky to be married to a woman who also works where we kind of have, you know, the consistent income there. But um yeah, I mean, I think there's there's okay, when is when is real cash coming in? Is one question mark. And then also like, what kind of debt am I signing on? Do I really feel good about this? Do I I mean it's all those, I mean, you know, all those numbers are real. It's like billions of dollars. Yeah. It's uh and and in and in my sake, I'm raising money for these projects. And so like I I want people to trust Cameron and like come back for the next one and feel like they like obviously made a good investment, but then my particular projects, you can if you live here, you can drive by and see them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Some progress on them. Yeah. You got to

Overhead Traps And Market Cycles

SPEAKER_04

personally guarantee the debt, don't you? Correct. Yeah. So and that means your wife has to sign too. Yeah. Um, yeah, in a lot of cases, she has signed too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So how does she feel about that? She's a good uh she's a good gut check of like, yeah, if she bel if she if I'm telling her something and she's like, Cameron, you find an idiot. It's like, it's probably not the right project for you. But even if she doesn't fully understand the deal, she can be like, oh wow. I I see what you're saying here. Um and so I think that's I'd call it her superpowers. I'm I'm very, you know, glass half full. Like, let's go conquer the world, let's jump on the rocket ship. And and she's like, Oh, did you put rocket fuel in there? Like, and uh um yeah, she's she's a good balance. I can't talk about it. She comes from a family that owned businesses. No, no, no, no. Her her dad worked to worked in uh repair for American Airlines his whole life and still does. One job, one job guy. And respect to him, but but yeah, it's uh so the the whole idea of and now she's a business owner ground, but like yeah, the idea of risk is not in her vocabulary.

SPEAKER_03

So she has her own business too, then you are both entrepreneur business owners.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well Well, that's the fact that she's has her own business and it's broken into that realm. She understands it. Yeah, it makes it easier. I always like to ask that question. Yeah. Because I I just think it it is. I mean, I think if your spouse didn't come from an environment or a family where people were self-employed, they're going to be a lot more risk averse. And when you're in a space like a lot of us are, you know, again, the privately held business world, most of the time, if you take on any kind of debt, you're going to personally guarantee it. And they want your spouse to sign too. And it so that could be a real barrier if you don't have a supportive spouse. Yeah, you can get divorced real fast. Yeah. Or not be able to do your project. Yeah. I mean, because they won't sign. Yeah. Um, but I just think a lot of people don't think about that. They're like, what do you mean? I've got an LLC. I was sold that minimized as my liability exposure. Welcome to the laws in the state of Arkansas. Yeah. Um, good luck, uh, baby. Okay. They want a personal guarantee anyway. That means a personal guarantee. That means they come after you and all your assets. You got it. That's the thing. I mean, it we've talked a little bit about this, but you know, we're gonna get Luke Renier back on the show. We need to.

SPEAKER_03

Because there is one entity structure that will absolutely protect you, but it's a it's the irrevocable trust, right? Yeah. Which but has a lot of governments to it that you can't just you know put anything on there.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you really have to be careful with those things. It's it's it's it's I mean, it's gonna cost you about 50k to create. It's very restrictive. Yeah, let's just say. It's very I'm too freewheeling to get myself nailed down in that box right now.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's right. You got it like you got you have to put your you have to put your gold in it and leave it never, you can never touch it. And I don't like that. Yeah, they're able to access everything at any time. Well, the second that you stick it in there, you lose you lose the uh you know the library. Yeah, there's no liquidity whatsoever.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, there's so you can't even use it. Yeah, you can't it's you can't use it as collateral.

SPEAKER_02

No, yeah. Which is which is breathing room. Yeah, it's like it's gonna be that in cash.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's true. So we're all at risk a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, we we all have we all have to have that sign or name on the dotted line

Current Projects And Local Focus

SPEAKER_02

and just yeah, be in a spot where it's like, okay, I can sleep or at night, or like, hey, if I can't, like why, why not? And like what what's what's really going on is the project, or is it something something else? Like what uh what what is it? Um yeah, you gotta be able to like live with whatever whatever you're signing on.

SPEAKER_04

So with your development company, have you like tried to build a sort of infrastructure for that with other employees, or are you just basically acting as chief cook and bottle washer?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I've got one employee, I've got one employee right now and primarily does like operations admin um work and she's she's fantastic. Um that's a big question mark in my head, right? Like, do we because you know in my world, if I build add employees, that kind of says, hey, Cameron, you're you got to sign up for you know X number of projects coming on. It's like there may not be that right project, but it's like you want to force yourself to do it to do a deal to because you have more staff. You need to keep feeding.

SPEAKER_04

Um that was a real problem for me, I'll be honest with you. I did do that. I had, you know, I had a business manager, I had an in-house accountant, I had um you had all your own framers, all my own framers, laborers, architecture, yeah, degreed but not registered, um uh property manager. You start adding that overhead up, and then you find yourself where you did exactly what you said. It's like, okay, I gotta make so much money per month here. Yeah, yeah, but there's projects coming along that aren't great projects, but do I need to take that to keep everybody busy? That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that can be death. Yeah. Well, it strays you away from your ult your original vision and makes you just cut corners and take additional risk. I mean, it gets uh gets out of hand.

SPEAKER_04

I didn't do that. I chose not to do that. Yeah. Which is, you know, which is a is when I started saying we need to wind this whole thing down.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you didn't want it, but but it recrut caused you to kind of go back.

SPEAKER_04

I either had to go one way or the other. Yeah. Yeah. And it just seemed to me that with the marketplace being, as you said, I mean, it's there's not always good deals out there to buy. It's you know, yeah, I I think that's where a lot of developers get in trouble.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

They just feel like they've got to do transactions and projects in order to keep their their thing going, that they've created this, you

Singles Over Home Runs

SPEAKER_04

know, infrastructure.

SPEAKER_02

Real estate's cyclical. It always will be. Yeah. And especially right now in our market where it's like a lot of people are like, oh man, let's go buy these old office or retail buildings. It's like, where? Good luck. Yeah. Like, and and you're probably, if you're gonna buy it, it's like, it's not like you're you're paying like pennies on on the dollar. It's like you're paying for the real estate.

SPEAKER_04

And uh well, years ago I had uh four different properties on North College that were all steals at the time. And it was interesting because I was going from residential and then I strayed into commercial because there was so much less competition over there. Like if it's a house, there'd be 20 bidders on it. If it's a ramshackle 7,000 square foot building with a roof caved in on college, there was nobody trying to buy it. Yeah, okay. What do we do with this? Yeah, now it's a totally different environment. So I get that. But um, so where are you going from here? What what are your plans?

SPEAKER_02

We've got a couple more projects teed up. Okay. Um, so we've right now we've got an apartment to condo conversion deal under construction right now in Fayetteville, as you know, the Wilson Park apartments.

SPEAKER_04

The I'm yeah, you I tried buying that years ago. I don't know how you got it. Tim Cooper wouldn't sell it to me, said he would. Love that location. You remember Tim? Oh yeah. He was our landlord over there for all of them. Yeah, yeah, you office in the same thing, though. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Great, great project. Another one. Love that. Well, thanks to Jeremy and Seth for um selling it. Um and then I love retail. And so we uh got a couple more retail uh deals in the hopper here. One that's like a larger redevelopment deal, and then one that's like kind of a mere um little like smaller, like a retenant um situation. But right now, everything I've I've got's in in Fayetteville. Um and uh I've taken a swing at some Rogers things. And um, when I was doing brokerage, 80% of the deals I were doing, I was doing were in Benton County. Sure. And office in Benton County, and and yeah, I mean, but I think naturally, as you know, you have to you have to have a niche to be good at this, even if it's in the broad spectrum. And there's not a whole lot of I've got some fantastic call competitioners, other friends doing doing this. And it's like some are in downtown Bentonville, some are in Pinnacle here, and like, and they do a lot of these deals and know them well. And like that's where I've I feel like I'm gonna continue to focus a lot on Fayetteville. Um, not saying I won't do things outside of it, but I'm definitely focused on Northwest, Arkansas.

SPEAKER_03

Like I'm very, very uh sure of that. I think there's something good too about you know you you know being younger in the development space, like your whole you travel to Austin, you saw something that was good for families in your demographic that have young three-year-olds and being able to bring that back. I mean, there's definitely a unique perspective to that. Well it re-enlivens the culture.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm I'm fine having the long-term view. That's like in fact, like that's what I want to have is like don't have to, yeah, don't have to get rich on any deal. Yeah. Like, hey, attitude.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, like we can make a single or a double and be totally happy. You're not going for the home run, right? Like that's where you get you lose, lose your loser, lose your less.

SPEAKER_02

Get on base and just keep going. Let's do a good

Why Northwest Arkansas Wins

SPEAKER_02

job on this project. Yeah. And I'm fine taking on some, you know, other partners and sharing, like it's just let's just do a good project. And then if we did a good job here, you know, that'll lead to something else.

SPEAKER_03

That kind of requires some discipline, right? I mean, I mean, especially in y'all's space, where there's a lot of I mean, even if you look at a piece of dirt, right? Nothing on it, like the vision of seeing something big, and can you do a multi-purpose massive plan? And everybody's, you know, you see your architectural renderings and everybody's happy as shit, you know, getting food and sleeping and walking dogs in your rendering. You know, I've seen those, like they paint this picture, this utopia society. Yes. You know, but but I would I would have a really hard problem of trying to find, okay, this discipline structure of okay, what's realistic and smart for me to do?

SPEAKER_04

I think a lot of developers go down that path and they just keep doing bigger and bigger and bigger jobs, and you just take more and more and more risk. And then when the market turns, it's so big and you've got so much debt, boom, you get killed. That's what had happened. It it really does that would happen to me. So I mean, I saw that happen the last go-round with pretty much all the developers went broke. Yeah. It was it was amazing. All the big ones. They did, the ones that were doing huge projects. They they all tanked. And it's just because they just keep ramping the scale up bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

SPEAKER_03

So I think that would happen to me if if development was my sole thing, right? It's I'd do yeah, I'd do some goofy stuff on the side. You'd be very disappointed. Both of y'all would be extremely excited.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, yeah, with like goofy stuff like create an AI company in a market that he totally understands after a successful building and exit about the I mean I'm talking about my real estate stuff that I have.

SPEAKER_03

I don't even bring it up to you because it's so I know like downtown Springdale. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and you got some big tracts of land. Well, I mean, that's but that but yeah. Downtown Springdale, like I've bought this building. I haven't done really I mean, I've did some refurbishing. I haven't done like you guys would go in there in a month, you'd have it turned around. Whereas I've been sitting on it for listen, that's fine.

SPEAKER_04

That's really there's nothing wrong with that strategy. Is there not? No, because you didn't spend a lot of money, and in five or ten years it could be very valuable. Okay, well, that is my strategy. Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, especially here. I think that's what everyone's saying

Advice To Ambitious New Builders

SPEAKER_02

is like, man, 10 years, it's like it's it's like 30 here in northern northwest Arkansas.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, it is so what do you tell people about why Northwest Arkansas is so great and why it's different? Because that's always been one of my things, you know. I feel like we're always typecast by in pop culture or the media as a place where there's nothing but a bunch of stupid rednecks, okay, who are walking around without shoes and have, you know, tapeworms and going to the bathroom in a friggin' outhouse. And it's like, how what do you say to people about this area? How do you I see how do you what's your response to that? I'm so sick of that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and I I think your your perspective is even different. Mine, maybe me, you know, being younger is I I remember going on a trips or you know, being on an airplane and someone being like, Where are you from? Where is Arkansas? Yeah, I know is that a city in Texas? No, no, exactly. Which I and that narrative has changed so much over the last like five years, even. Uh yeah. To me, what gets me so excited about the area is is the once you're here, you're on the team. Yeah. And hey, I want you to do something really great. I want you to do something really great because it's good for all of us.

SPEAKER_00

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SPEAKER_04

That is a good way to look at it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I think it's a general sense too, because I mean anybody that moves into the area, they end up it feels home, it it is becomes home, and they and the people immediately start trying to contribute.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, we don't have an exclusionary two-class society, though, though. We respect the person who claws their way up. Yeah, oh, 100%. You know, 100%. Because everybody is a great thing.

SPEAKER_02

Other than like the legacy families, but the the you know, they I mean, it's it's y'all's era of the you know, uh late 40s to mid-sixties of folks who like like everyone feels like and they all made it themselves. And then there's like that, that's the and and then there's a and then the same thing, there's still a sentiment in the same tranche of whether whatever age you are, but it's like, hey, this is the attitude here. Hey, go create something. Yeah, go like there's a piece of dirt, like Pinnacle was five years ago, it didn't look like this. Like, just go go go figure it out. Like, and by the way, so-and-so down the street, he'll actually probably want to help you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, there is a lot of help like that. People do there is. People could just need to ask. Yeah. I wouldn't say the only thing that's what they're talking about. You said yawzer, like Mark was from the 40s and the 50s and 60s, but I was born in 77. 40. So

A Family Story About Risk

SPEAKER_03

so I mean, Mark. I know I'm old. Mark depends that's okay. That's true. Can I cut?

SPEAKER_04

Something I need to tell you. My last wife was the same age she is. I'm old enough to be as dad.

SPEAKER_03

Why'd you have to throw the E up? You know Why'd you gotta say dad? My wife's mom and I'm old to be dad, and everything's good.

SPEAKER_04

My wife still calls her mom mommy. Yeah, but Mummy.

SPEAKER_03

Well, that's different though. You call yourself daddy.

SPEAKER_04

I got five daughters, okay? I'm daddy. To the what can I say? But anyway, um, no, it is a great thing about this area. People want to see you succeed. Yeah, there's a lot of help available. So I guess sort of the we're we're running out of time, but I mean, so you're still a fairly young guy, but you've been out there for a while. What do you say to the young people? Let's say they're 10 years younger than you and they're getting out of school and they're coming and they they seek you out. And they go, you know, that Cameron, he's a smart guy. I'm gonna go see him and get his reaction to my business idea or ask him for input on what I should do as I graduate. What do you say to these people?

SPEAKER_02

Um I like the dream. So I'm like, there's an element there where I'm like, hey, I want to encourage you to do that. But there's also the the side of like, if you want to go do this, you gotta put the work in too.

SPEAKER_04

So we always come back to the work.

SPEAKER_02

Every successful person who comes in here, find some good mentors, and I think you can probably jump, you know, so some like I don't even call them steps, but you can maybe move a little faster. But the work is still there. The work is like very much still there, the risk is still there. Um I yeah, I mean, it's great if you find something you really enjoy. That's that's what yeah, I think everybody should do that. But like um, and I think everybody I don't know, may everyone's not wired to take risk, but like, hey, if you've got something that you need to like go do because you feel like really passionate about it, go do it and go take some rest. Because what collectively in Northwest, Arkansas, we need more people starting businesses. And if like if you want to go start something, like, hey, I'll give you all, I'll give you whatever my take on this is, any of my advice, and I'll connect you with people that like, hey, I think you probably should know this person. If I assuming I respect you and I think like you're a great person or what you know, you're not gonna waste your time. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

Like, um, yeah, I think do you think these young people don't want to work as hard?

SPEAKER_02

That's a loaded question. Uh geez.

SPEAKER_03

Uh the I mean, in short, do you think that the most of the human population is stupid? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

What do you think about that? No, the average IQ is below 100. I mean, that's hilarious. To me, so yeah, like I said, our our kids are young. Our kids are three and under. Sure. And so we have a lot of babysitters come over to the house and watch the kids. You can tell when someone shows up immediately if they've like had to work and if they're gonna do the dishes but when you're when you're back and all that stuff. And that translates across everything, a part of life to me. Like you are, you either have that or you do not. And like that's one thing I kind of I fear about our kids is like, let's how do I like not like how do I instill this in you or just like force it upon you, like go figure this out? Like, I think that's one thing. If I look at my dad, the two things that I really admire about like the what he instilled in me and my brothers was one, we saw him take, we saw him take risk, and some of that risk paid off, some of it didn't. Um we

Attention, Discipline, And Long Games

SPEAKER_02

saw him take risk. And so like to me, I was like, of course I'm gonna do something that involves a little bit of risk. And then also uh he just he would connect us to people, but it was like go get a job, go figure like yeah, go like if you want to go to the movies, go go go find some money.

SPEAKER_03

Like so I was actually gonna ask you a question that followed, like, do you think that you know your dad notice how I said that?

SPEAKER_04

Not daddy, correct, single D. If you were at Little Rock, you'd have said daddy. Okay, but this is Northwest Arkansas, not the deep south here.

SPEAKER_03

Do you think do you think your dad? I mean, you know, your dad's an entrepreneur and you just kind of mention it about seeing the risk and all that, but you know, I imagine there's a lot of folks like, well, I mean, of course, you know, you're you're able to get achieve success because you know, you have your your dad's influence and all this other type of stuff or resources, but let's tell the truth about it. What is it? And you say no.

SPEAKER_02

Like, I I think that's no the answer no to like that that thing there. I mean, there's there's a moment I will never forget this because I it bonded our family together in ways that like can't explain. I was uh I was a sophomore in high school and uh 2010 and I was at a I was a summer camp. It was 2009 summer and uh well, sorry, 2010 summer. I get a call at summer camp. You know, you're not supposed to get a call while you're at summer camp. It's like who died? And uh my dad says, hey, we're about to lose the house. We gotta sell your car. Um I just want to let you know, and like I'm like, yeah, we're not gonna lose our house. Like, but it was there was a there was a team energy that came from that. It's like, hey, like, let's figure this out. Like and uh, and like we're gonna like let's figure that those things like and and I say that out of respect. Sure, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Like he pulled it out, he pulled it out. Oh, he did, and a hard call to make on his and a hard thing to hear as you know. I mean, like you that would in all honesty, let me I mean, I'm my question's a little loaded because what I'm trying to get across is number one, you brought up something I didn't think about. Most people being scared of things in life. It's a motivator. It is, but the most of the motivation for no for I'd say the average majority of people that are not entrepreneurs would say, I will never ever have my own business. I saw my dad almost lose the house. I saw my dad, and I got this phone call in the summertime. So there's number one, that would strike out 99%. You're right about that, but not the freaking entrepreneur. Exactly. Number two, y'all were talking about earlier in my loaded question was yes, you know, your dad has been successful. You've seen that despite the things you saw and you overcame and you wanted to be an entrepreneur too. Was it takes a crap ton of work? Yeah, no one on this planet is going to do things for you, right? And so, like, it's not like you're I think a lot of the perception is is oh, okay, well, it's easy for them because of that. So therefore they can work, you know, 10 to 2 p.m. every day. Yeah, and they're challenging.

SPEAKER_04

They've got passive income.

SPEAKER_03

They got passive income and they don't have any fail scenarios. Yeah, no, I know.

SPEAKER_04

You know, but the thing about it is, I think any of us who have some degree of affluence, okay, let's say maybe more than the average person. The danger is that we ruin our kids. Yeah. Okay. Now or your relationships with other people. Yeah, or the relationships with your. I mean, I think about like my two older kids, and to a certain extent, like the oldest one had the least amount given to her, and she certainly is super highly motivated. Okay. And now I go down to the youngest one. There's kind of a continuum there. And, you know, it's whatever she asks for, basically, I give her. Yeah, of course. And you know, because she's 14, I'm an old man, you know, like a grandpa. I might as well be. But how do you avoid ruining them when you know you could solve their problem? Yeah. And and and and I do think it's a slippery slope. On the other hand, you know, this to a certain extent, they just all turn out differently. You could have the you could have a crop of kids raise them exactly the same way.

SPEAKER_02

There's 12 of you guys here.

SPEAKER_04

Lots of baby mamas and and one daddy, and one daddy. Yeah, and they and they turn out completely differently, though. Seriously. They can all have the same parentage. They're different people. All different people and they just and they just some of them just turn out to be entrepreneurs and risk takers and self-motivated, and others don't. I mean, I don't like the generational typecasting that people try to do. I think it's a harmful thing. I think it's gone on for a million years. You go back to the Romans, said it about their followers, you know, the next generation that was worse or whatever. But that said, I do think that there is a problem today with attention span. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, you're doing things that take long-term commitments and and planning. Um, I think a lot of people today just they don't have the stomach for it. They expect immediate gratification. We're all addicts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like, I mean, on phone over there right now. Yeah, it's just like thanks for calling them out. Well, we can I mean, I'm I'm I'm not saying what you're doing is not important. I'm just like, I just I'm saying this about myself myself too. It's like, okay, here I can name 15 things that I've taken off my phone, like because I just you were just in here for an hour. I mean, what did you miss during the hour?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I got a roll. All right. Well, end the show this way, for God's sakes. Okay. Hey, man. Um, so

How To Reach Cameron

SPEAKER_04

Cameron, before we go, how can people reach you if they want to reach out and get your insight on into something or bring a wonderful deal to you?

SPEAKER_02

Um that first off, that'd be amazing. Um, just websites cjcdeskdevelopment.com or my email, Cameron at CJCdesk Development.com. Um, but yeah, it's I think the world we live in now, everyone's phone numbers everywhere, anyways, too. So great. Um, yeah, we'd love to love to hear from folks. Thank you guys for doing this.

SPEAKER_03

I really appreciate you coming on, man. It's been a really good conversation. Yeah. I can promise you there's folks out there that are in your same boat that are needing to hear this conversation. Good stuff. It is. It's great stuff. We're glad you're here. It's always fun to be with you, and you're a positive guy. It's cool to know that like your statement about being a grandpa basically for your dog. I mean, like, you really are that. So that's the there's a lot to that statement. Let people not forget. Oh boy. Let people not forget about that and the crop of kids. Well, beautiful.

SPEAKER_04

Uh okay. Well, until next week, this has been another episode of Join us, Cameron. Big Talk about Small Business.

Closing And Listener CTA

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Big Talk About Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com, and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business. And be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes, and ask questions about upcoming shows.