Fighting the Slop: How to Win the War Against AI Garbage

Most small businesses think growth comes from squeezing margins. We’ve learned the opposite can be true: lower prices, ship more, and let volume create the learning, leverage, and momentum that higher prices can’t. That idea kicks off a wide-ranging conversation about building a modern podcast and video production engine that prioritizes speed, scale, and customer value.

We talk through what actually differentiates a serious production studio from “anyone with a microphone” and why recording is only the beginning. The real work is the messy middle: editing, cutting clips, formatting for every platform, staying current as algorithms change, and keeping a consistent cadence. We get into why frequency beats perfection in marketing, why businesses still resist it, and how original human content performs better as AI-generated content floods the internet. When everything starts to look synthetic, authenticity becomes the advantage.

From there we zoom out into leadership: how to hire for curiosity, keep bureaucracy from creeping in, and build a culture that learns fast. We unpack the logic of starting service-based to discover the real problems, then automating the repeatable parts with AI and eventually offering hybrid SaaS. Along the way, we hit decision-making under uncertainty, avoiding perfection paralysis, and why a little hands-on focus outside work can sharpen intuition inside work.

If you want practical insights on podcast marketing, content production systems, and building a customer-obsessed small business, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a business owner who needs to publish more, and leave a review with the one idea you’re going to act on this week.

Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!

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Transcript

Why Lower Prices Win

SPEAKER_02 0:00

We need to lower our prices, is what we need to do. Like, and I would rather have more customers at lower prices because the customer needs lower prices and they need to be able to distribute more content. And so if we raise our prices, then we're basically not allowing the customer to have more value in what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Anyway, this has been another episode, or this is and will be another episode of big talk about small businesses.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Okay. Yeah. So that's part, that's that's our plan for um we've we've tapped into some some really pretty large organizations that have you know a lot of depth for content that they need to be promoting. Uh that's pretty exciting for us to kind of scale out as well. So big opportunities.

Building A Studio That Scales

SPEAKER_03 0:56

So yeah, it seems, you know, when you first told me about this concept, you I thought, oh, there's a lot of places like this out there. Yeah. But you've really got a completely different twist on it. Well, I mean, obviously, one thing is you've invested to build a real facility here and have it staffed with people who actually know what they're doing. It's always interesting to me when I'm in your lobby. It's like a who's who of the local business community. I mean, yeah, it's really cool. I see so many people here. It's always a it's it's like, let's go to the party. We got a podcast videos. Everybody's there, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

That is cool. When the studio starts getting busy, you know, and there's multiple shows going on. I mean, you do get to see a lot of buck into a lot of folks, you know, influential folks and business leaders that are in here doing their shows, and that's always a good time.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

That is cool. So, how do you differentiate though from I mean, aside from the fact that you've spent more money and to hire the people and build the infrastructure that you have, what else is really different about what you're doing here?

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Uh, everything that we're doing is about speed and scale. You know, it's about driving costs low for the for the cost customer. Um, I mean, we definitely employ the theory of like, you know, if we can use any kind of automation in our process, we employ that so that way we can pass that savings on to the customer. I mean, our big get is that you can basically do four episodes per month, you know, it's for about twelve hundred, thirteen hundred dollars. I mean, that's sixty-minute videos shot and edited. Now, distribution costs extra. You know, you have all these ancillary services that you can do on top of it, but just that, just the recording production aspect, we've got it nailed down pretty good. Um, then I think the biggest value is, I mean, really, I always say our best client is somebody that's already tried to do it because I mean, even individual influencers and creators like, you know, to do the distribution, to cut down the videos, to create the snippets.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Oh, you spend a lot of time.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

It's it's just an enormous amount of work that no it's production work that nobody wants to do, you know. Or you have one person helps you and then they flake out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, people get vulnerable, you know.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

You're you're out of business, basically.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah, and and it's just it's I mean, and then not to mention as soon as you learn or figure something out, especially in the social media front, algorithms change, you know, sure recommend or requirements change. Yeah, it's a never-ending, growing process. So we're we're constantly, I mean, our team is constantly at bat at trying to figure out well, you're in there with all these different situations and companies.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

So you you're you're in it daily and you see what's going on. Oh, yeah, 100%. It's got to be valuable.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Just digging in the weeds, you're getting in the clients. It's like being good at like insurance or something. Yeah. Like it's just so messy in there. Right. Like, what the hell does everything mean? And that's our goal is to figure it out so that way we can just, you know, provide that turnkey service and let the businesses do what they do really well. If they're manufacturing products or they're teaching classes or whatever it is, doesn't matter. You know, let us do this ridiculous thing. You know, it's the same, you know, I I like to liken it to the same analogy of when you know cameras became on people's phones and or digital cameras came out, everybody became a professional photographer just because there was a camera available.

Frequency Beats Perfection In Marketing

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Yeah, well, it's just like when when desktop publishing came out, everybody was a graphic designer. Oh, yeah, but they weren't. But they weren't, yeah. A tool. But it's like I give you a rifle, you're automatically not a sharpshooter.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah, yeah. And so like just because you can buy uh, you know, a nice microphone in a in the camera. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, that's that's that's the easy part. And then, or it's kind of easy, it's assumingly easy, but you know, setup, you know, how you turnkey it, like how you know it's all about reduction of time, you know, for if you did do your own thing, like how do you expedite the time? Because it was you'd spend an hour and a half getting things ready.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

It's kind of like having a trainer at a gym, too. Yeah, it's like you'll go to the gym if the trainer's there and it's scheduled. That's fair. You know, so here you've got the same thing, the company that's scheduled, you got to show up, you're gonna go there and you're gonna do your thing.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Well, and because I think it probably helps a lot of people. Well, it does because I think that you know, frequency and repetition is key in any kind of media. You know, like if you know, back in the day they you know they would have a weekly newspaper, then they turn it into daily. Well, they didn't do daily because it's it was a good idea. They did it because people wanted more information on a daily basis to stay current. And that's the same thing that if you're doing video shows as a C level to your team, they want more frequent communication from them. Oh, I'm a big believer in that, you know, from marketing standpoint. It's marketing. I mean, just even just like hell hell, even like not take the human out of the equation, the robots, the algorithms want more frequent content too. Everybody wants new fresh information. Yeah, we can do that now. It's just do companies actually see the light in that? That's the that's the gap that we're fighting all the time. So sales in, you know, on the go-to-market, you know, talking about business. I mean, you know, like if you are in a more of an innovative type business, like you I think it's I've deceived myself about 100% of the time since I've been in business that, oh, I see this. This is obvious. Look at this, we can do this. And then you go to clients and they're like, I don't understand even what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

And then you talk to them, then they go out and they buy their own microphones and video cameras, and then they staff somebody, you know, for$10,000 you know a month trying to do the same thing, and the output's just as slow because everybody gets qualitative about it instead of thinking about that frequency, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Oh man, that's so true. I mean, it's just I fought that in marketing for the client, the architecture and engineering firms I work with for years. Yeah. We'd rather have one good thing than than 10 frequent. I'm like, do you understand anything about marketing? Okay. We want one good quarterly newsletter. I'm like, no, no, let's divide that up. Yeah, let's send that stuff out every week. Absolutely. We're gonna have a lot more impact.

Real Content Versus AI Slop

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Human beings want the most recent current information. They don't want you know, I mean, nobody wants to. People don't understand that. They don't we know that. Yeah, we know that, but I mean, they don't get it. No, they don't. I mean, and then and then and at the end of the day, you like no, you love that analogy or that that cliche. Yeah, what about the beginning of the next step? Yeah, the cliche. Yeah. Yeah, the cliche. Um, you know, to be able to feed the human listener, but also just as importantly in today's time, that that algorithm, that this fresh, new created content is really a big deal. And speaking of, you know, I asked get get asked the question a lot about the AI, AI avatars, AI content, all that type of stuff. I mean, you know, as as more content is infused into social or whatever platforms, like people are still gonna want to hear from people. And actually, the algorithms. I mean, they actually want something that's real. Yeah, they do. Yeah, they want something real, and the algorithms want something that's real too. Like, and so a lot of this slop that goes out there. I mean, the algorithm, you know, AI is smart enough to read AI. You know, I mean, it knows what it's seeing. And so, but our shows that we do when we put this content out, it's brand new, it's fresh, it's not anywhere else in the in the uh you know cyberspace. Yes, it's got new guests, new topics, all this stuff. I mean, we're just basically the algorithms are falling in love with what we're doing. Love it. And and as more slop comes into the equation, we're actually rising up because of it.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

I mean, look at those. I I don't know whether the the awards show I saw several months ago on TV, they now have awards for podcasts. You know, when they're giving out awards for various movies and stuff, it's now a new form of media.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Oh, it 100% is. Actually, I just read a stat. I I mean, I can't quote off the top of my head, but I saw it where podcasting has now superseded radio in the amount of listeners. That's wild, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

I mean, it's like And you get exactly what you want with a podcast. That's the thing. You you know, with a radio, like you you got to sit there and listen to a lot of stuff you don't want just to get to the little bit that maybe you do.

Hiring For Curiosity Not Bureaucracy

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Well, the technology just allowed technology and platforms have just allowed the you know, the rifle shooting scenario versus the shotgun of the radio, you know. Yeah, exactly. It was much more expensive, and you had to be broad and you had more people, and that was the only source of avenue or channel to get your information so everybody would come to it. But you know, my my big uh statement has always been, you know, in the past there's been a hundred media outlets with millions of listeners apiece. Now there's a million outlets with a hundred listeners apiece. Yeah. That's so everything's just getting very way to look at every yeah. So it's exciting business. I mean, it's challenging though. I mean, it's like any business. I mean, there's just so much change. You know, the uh, you know, I think that like you know, that plus other businesses that are going on right now, like the just the the rapid scale of AI, the can you know, the continuous you know, inventions of technology, to, you know, the demands that our customers are have facing, to the budget constraints, I mean, all that type of stuff. I mean, it's pretty it's pretty challenging to you know to build a business in this realm. I think only only by that I mean challenging mentally for the team. Sure. The team has to they have to come in the doors with a desire to learn and grow every single day. Sure. And that's something I think that I've never seen at a sk at at such an intensity level in my years of business. Uh, and how do you, you know, how do you encourage that? How do you reward that? How do you, you know, you know, try to prevent the opposite of that, the drag? Like, I mean, you just there can't be one person on the team dragging. Sure. There simply cannot be. And and uh, I mean, it requires a lot of the leader to continue to push.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yeah, and you can't let the bureaucrats take over as you get larger. And and they and you bring in, quote, professionals to handle various aspects of the business because they can bureaucratize it so fast. They can and it kills it.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

You know, and one of my one of my I mean, I guess my attempts or or exercises for this business has been, you know, since day one, we didn't really hire any experts. You know, I hired folks that are newer in their career that have this curiosity to learn and then to dig in and get things done, right? Like, I mean, if you don't know, you can learn and you can figure it out. Yep. Um, and I'm only saying that like from the standpoint of we do need, we're at a position now as the company's growing, you know, to bring on a little bit more senior, experienced, business type people that have a little bit more foresight, maybe, or they can see a little bit further down the road, you know, and how do you start building those things? Um, but if I would have hired the professionals in the beginning with the experience, I mean, it would have been immediate bureaucracy. Yeah, there would have been, you know, nobody would want to actually get their hands dirty. That's the hardest thing to do. You know, they're all used to having other people working for them. And you can't do that in a in a startup innovative business. I mean, yes, like I have to get my hands dirty.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

You gotta do. I gotta be a doer.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

I mean, uh, you know, yeah, the advent of AI, like, I mean, it's forced me to, I mean, like, I have to use it. I have to be a practitioner. I have to I have to understand, you know, what the hell Gemini Enterprise is, and then I have to understand what pro is. And that, you know, I mean, it's just this and then how to structure those things so that everybody can get access. I mean, it's it's a crazy. Well, you have gotten smarter the older you got.

Service First Then Automate With AI

SPEAKER_03 12:28

I mean, it's just you just keep getting smarter and smarter. It blows me away. I just keep learning, you know. Just keep just keep diving diving in. But but let's just take a step back for a minute. Well, well, we, you know, so you've got this business here, and and you know, you've really stuck it out to where you got to a critical, you know, it started as a hobby for you, if I recall. I mean, you had that studio over there, the old studio. Yeah. It was a place you went and played music and stuff. Yeah. And then the next thing you know, you're doing podcasting out of there. And then the next thing you know, you know, you're building out one that's got all the multiple studios and everything. But so I know you have a passion for this stuff personally, right? But look, you're a guy that built a software company that had a really successful exit. Okay. Why do you fool around with a business like this? I mean, I'm not, you know, I I and I say this as somebody who does the same thing. Sure, sure. Okay, because you know what I'm involved in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it, I mean, there are other businesses maybe that would offer you. I mean, you've got a uh an AI-based company.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Okay. And I mean, let's face it, the potential of that is staggering. It is. And so, and yet you still do a business like this. Because not to say this isn't innovative, but I'm just saying it's not in the same league or category. It'll never have the value of a business like a software SaaS or AI company would, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Yeah, I think there's a couple there's a couple of things. Why do it? Well, first, I would say that this one actually might have just as much or more. Really? As far as potential exit.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Okay. You know. I guess I I I'm not smart enough to see that when I compare it to starting SaaS first.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Right. Like this business has so many broken pieces to like not our business, the the the industry or the genre. Yeah, the genre of what the hell we're dealing with has a million broken pieces. And so to try to go fix something in SaaS, like it's going to really isolate you, narrow, narrow you down to you know, to something so de definely niche that like that's very vulnerable, in my opinion, because uh, you know, a Google or YouTube or somebody could just completely bust that niche up.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Well, that's true. Yeah, it's much more I get that. It's much more vulnerable to a change and environment.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

And then if you started with a really broad-based SaaS that can do everything that we're doing here today under a SaaS platform or a Gentic Flow or whatever, like I think that's extremely expensive. Like I don't know, yeah. Um I I mean, I'm you can't market it because the whole world could buy it. That's yeah, 100%. And you need you would need a few billion dollars, honestly, to to try to build something like that. And yeah, then I think also that there's just so much undiscovered territory as to what the real problems are. And I and I feel like that that's the other part. You know, if I was to start this company out brand new, saying, hey, let's be like like we did what we did with Ad Fury, if I was to say we're gonna build an agentic flow with the software as a service, and that's our plan, like it would have been really risky because there's so many unknown nooks and crannies of problems that you couldn't solve them technologically. And so you would end up having this SaaS that need that depended on a very big human-based scale that would have been a paradox to that total model.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

And so you've done business, but your SAS business that was aimed at a very specific problem. Yeah, so the other company it is, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:04

I mean, so but this one, the the decision to go service-based first, we've talked about this, like there's a it has cost money, but it's been in human human capital, right? That's where the that's where the investment is primarily. And we invest in the people and in, like I said, getting hands on keyboard and digging into these wormholes of hell that nobody else wants to mess with. And nobody's done it from a from a processed mindset to go, okay. Yeah, to make it scalable. Yeah, exactly. Like like you, yeah, sure, you got millions of influencers out there that have figured out certain things about certain channels, but none of them are sharing their information. It's Joe's burgers versus McDonald's. You're maybe McDonald's. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so, but to start out with service-based, and the reason why I think there's a scalable exit approach is because now that we've figured out the service-based, we are, we already have, started doing agentic flows against some of our back end process of where you can actually do it and where there's not a solution for it. And so we can build our own AI flows to automate these little pieces. But if you looked at a hundred boxes in the process, well, you're perfecting your system first.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You're testing and perfecting.

Creative Work Incentives And Resistance

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Perfecting, figuring out, and then and then we do have SaaS plans. We do, I mean, there's some things that we we're we're gonna be doing to continue to automate and make our business more efficient, but at the same time, it can be resellable in a SaaS format. But that could happen in a year or two down the road when they become easily available. So I do see down the road that you might see more of a hybrid business that where it's you know, half of it is SaaS and tech led, the other half is still very service business. And that actually kind of butts into I've done that before with White Spider. We started very very much service and we started automating the processes that were fatiguing us and that we could actually automate. So in and and then also there's the the whole media component to this that that has a lot of tentacles to it. It's just extremely complicated business, you know. And then but there's a lot of room to grow. A lot of room to grow with that. Now, adfury.ai, which is the SaaS company you're talking about that I got with my partner JS, um that one is very defined niche. Like it's a you know, it's it's within a retail media network in the retail world that's outside of the big mass advertising spaces, you know, and so it's very defined already. So the world's gotten smaller. Right. And then even in that world, we gotten really tight on just the creative supply chain or the content supply chain aspect of how you create the creative for the advertising. So we're not trying, there's a plenty of players doing um, you know, campaign management, automation, using AI, doing sponsored search and all these different things, but nobody nobody wants to piss around with the creative because and so what they do is they don't use creative a lot of times or the creative advertising spaces down here where the automated you know budgets are up here. And our job is to to take all that filthy production work that no one wants to do, including the creative designers themselves. Nobody wants to sit around and redraw boxes, you know, and sure and reformat ad sizes.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

I'm I'm i I'm really skeptical of the quote creatives. Okay. I mean, I hate to say that, but I find a lot of them I I A, I don't think they are that creative. And B, they're so inconsistent in their output and productivity that I'm I'm just skeptical, I guess. It just, I mean, I've got limited experience dealing with them. I know you've got a lot more than I do, but I've been involved in a million different companies where we hire outside creative talent. And so many times they're just such a letdown. It's kind of like PR firms. It's the same thing there, you know, where they just stroke you, stroke you, stroke you. They got lots of words, sell it, but you know, in the end, yeah, it's not that good.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

And I think that well, I think that that that that exists across any line, honestly. I do, but but I'd say in the creative space, a lot of time, my experience on just the agency side is a lot of times the agent, I'm talking small shops you know, are founded by creatives that are very creative, but then they get into business and they don't understand the amount of time and operational organization that that requires. And so therefore they spend you know more just as much time in QuickBooks and pissing around with legal entities and then with that scopes of work and all that, yeah, then they lose, they they have to lose their creative, you know, flow. They they lose that creative lock-in. So maybe they do better if they're in a bigger company where all that's taken care of. A lot of times, you know, a lot of times, but then you get those creatives that I think that when you get into bigger companies, you know, um I have experience or seeing that there's a lot of resistance in evolution. Um I think that in today's time with AI, there's a lot of there's a lot of threat. And so the resistance on AI Oh, resistance to use it because I don't but uh but I do think that there's creatives that are embracing it and that do evolve that are actually the the best. Right. They're using the tool for what it's supposed to be. 100%. And it can, you know, those folks are gonna really they're gonna be, you know, they're gonna be really successful. You know, the ones that are understanding that that technical side, you know, and and leveraging those tools the the appropriate way. But but a lot of times things get stalled out and they they slow. Down in a lot of the times the the billing model to it is kind of the the anti of what a business owner wants. Business owner wants you know frequency, con continuous, you know, consistency. Yeah. You know, getting that word out, message out. And a lot of times creatives, you know, want to spend more time than what maybe is needed in something and get paid for it. And get paid for it. Yeah. Because it's built on an hourly basis. So the age, therefore, the agency doesn't want to just the same thing as architecture and engineering.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

I mean, it's like when CAD came around. Yeah. You know, I was in the business 40 plus years ago. And it was like, you know, we can use CAD, but then we have less drafting hours to sell. Yeah. How is that good for us? Uh, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's like, well, maybe it's going to make you more competitive, which then allows you to do other stuff that maybe is higher value, but so many people resisted and fought it and kicked tooth and they just thought all they saw was it's going to reduce their hours they can build. And then no, I mean, very few companies will like, yeah.

Decision Paralysis Versus Taking Action

SPEAKER_02 23:05

I mean, in like you have a kind of like you can't fight it, right? You have to you have to go with the changes and with the customer. It's always about what the customer's value is. It's never about the business's value. Yeah, the customer just wants the output, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Yeah. They want the product.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah. And I mean what went into it. Just like I get pressure for, you know, hey, we need to have a higher profit margin in the business, you know, at times. And I'm just like, no, man, we need to lower our prices, is what we need to do. Like, and I'd rather have more customers at lower prices because the customer needs lower prices and they need to be able to distribute more content. And so if we raise our prices, then we're basically not allowing the customer to have more value in what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Right there to me is like one of the key departures between an entrepreneurial thinker and a small business owner. They think about the profitability and what they can extract, and they forget all the benefits of the growth. Right. The growth, having more clients, having more experiences that you're learning from that'll advance, having more expertise that you couldn't have if you were smaller. Well, yeah, but they just think short-term profit.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Well, you said a key word about the experiences, right? That's what that's why you want more volume of clients. That's why you want a greater diversity. Right. You know, like if you don't have that, that you you're not really surfing or navigating, trying to find that really good, you know, current of a specific industry or a type of job title or whatever your audience is. Yeah. You know, your goal is to find a really great target audience that is consistently buying what you have because there's value that you're giving to them. They see it and they know it and they need it. Yeah. And you're able to do that really well and do it better than anybody else. And that's how you lock into that's how your that's where your moat is formed. That's how you that's why you got to cast a lot of hooks and water. You do, man. I mean, it's you do, and they all teach you a little something. Sure. And it's just like anything. Like if you're gonna be a great, you know, freaking NBA basketball player, you better be freaking dribbling the ball and trying a whole bunch of different things. You can't just sit there, sit there and shoot free throws because you want to be a good free throw shooter. Yeah. No, you know, you may not be a good free throw shooter. Or there might be a hundred of them that are just as good as you. Yeah. So you better learn how to dunk and shoot three-pointers and get rebounds, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:27

Well, you know at all. Speaking of basketball courts, this new house that we bought, we haven't closed on yet, has a basketball court. It's got a Michael Jordan basketball court. Why the hell do you need it? I don't. I'm gonna take that out and make that part of the pool deck. What are you gonna do with the basketball goal? I'm gonna leave it there, probably. Oh, okay. You're just gonna I'm just it's got all that that decking on there that makes it, you know, that's expensive. Oh, wow. That's got a wood floor? No, it's it's got some kind of like like rubber pad things on it. Okay. This was owned by a basketball coach. So what is it? What's it's good stuff. Maybe I can find somebody on Facebook Marketplace that will buy all that. But I'm not gonna be shooting baskets out there. Yeah, maybe you could. But no, that's that's very interesting. So you've got these two different entities out there. Do you find that it's difficult? Um, and I know you got other things you're involved in too, both profit, for-profit, and nonprofit business um entities. Do you find it's it's hard for you to decide where to put your time?

Focus Breaks Build Better Intuition

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Yeah, it's it's an hour by hour freaking issue. You know, I mean, I got I mean, it's a continuous problem that I'm always thinking that it might be a solution to it. I don't know, maybe it's just the the reality of the world. But I mean, I try to I try to reserve Mondays for podcast videos, Tuesdays for ad fury, meaning that I'm at those locations on those days working with the teams and having team meetings and getting up to date. But, you know, the rest of the time, the rest of the weeks, I mean hour by hour, and one's popping in, one's popping out, I'm getting calls, texts, you know, emails from one or the other. There's just a lot too a lot of variety going on. Um and then the worst part about it is that there's things that I need hours to work on myself because I think that a lot of folks don't are la have the lack of confidence to make decisions and go forward with stuff, you know, versus what maybe I do. And I don't think it's the anything about intelligence, I just think it has a lot to do with like a mentality of a small business or an entrepreneur to where there's there's a level of non-perfection that I'm okay with. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

And they and you can always say, I need more information. You totally can. So you just keep going to one expert after another, they give you different inputs. Which one do you listen to? So they become paralyzed.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

They do. Yeah. And then and then they they don't want to get in trouble, they don't want to fail, they don't want to be let go. Sure. You know, whereas I think that we have this thing like, well, hell, man. I mean, like it's the only thing we can do. So let's go. I've survived this far. Yeah. I mean, you gotta pull the trigger, you know, you gotta take an action, you gotta get to market. And yeah, you know, and so that that becomes kind of challenging because I think there's a very and the thing about it that drives me a little crazy is the kind of work that I love to do. You know, I mean, I loved, I mean, like I did spend three hours on Sunday diving deep into a world that that I I have experience in that nobody else was going to take the charge on. For whatever reason, nobody could create a good outline and a strategy for this. It was about an event. And then everybody's asking questions and nobody wants to own it. And so it falls back. That's what happens a lot to me. Nobody wants to really own something.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

And so it ends up getting delayed, delayed, delayed, and then I have to Oh, I get that. I get that. You know, does that happen to you? Oh, God, yeah. I mean, it's like an every week, everyday thing, like where there's something that I have to own because no one else wants to take ownership. Yeah. And like put a really good foot forward.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

You want everybody else to do it, but they're at some point you discover it's not going to happen unless you do it. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Yeah, yeah. And it's not clear and it's not well thought out. Yeah, like sure. It took me three hours, and I was using AI the entire time. It was my basis of research. Oh, AI is great for research. But I'm not looking at my hours and contemplating okay, am I spending three hours where I could be doing something else fun or like, is it worth my time? Yeah, I'm not getting paid anything. Yeah. You know, but I'm doing three hours because it took three hours to get the shit shit done right. Most of what I do is not getting paid anything.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

No, I'm not getting paid anything to sit here with you.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

We're both free. But I mean, like, I did the three hours and it just became three hours because, but it was done right. It was well articulated, it was clear, you know, it had the value to the customer, which most people forget. I don't it blows my mind how people so quickly get drifted away from the what are you really trying to, like, why are you doing what you're doing? Yeah. And it comes down to does the cut, is that something the customer is going to be interested in buying? I know. You know, and is it valuable to them? And so I I don't know if we have a special knack to just stay locked into that, but like I can, you know, as I'm doing my AI research and I got, you know, freaking two hours worth of this information coming through, I'd like that it populates back and I read it. Then I re-prompt it and do things so it gets clearer. And then I'm I'm combating the what the the robot has said and what research has said to really, and I'm having to twist it back to get back to the kernel of the value because it forgets and it goes off into this other world. And I'm like, no, you know, this is who we're going after. This this is what these people care about, you know, and so get back on track. And so, but anyway, but by the end of it, it's now it's something that actually is going to provide value. And it's just simply an outline, it's a direction. Yeah. And anybody under the sun can do that work. Like, there's there's nothing special about what I'm doing. I'm just thinking about the customer and making something done correctly, you know, and that has been thought about a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

That's it. But no, so like you just said though, I could have been doing something else. I mean, you also like to do physical things, yeah. Where you see the output immediately, don't you? Yeah. It's so gratifying. It is, yes. I mean, I think that's a big part of the problem with a lot of entrepreneurs and and business small business owners is that they don't get that gratification from doing physical work. Yeah. And then it it somehow it impacts their their psyche. Oh, totally. Yeah. You know, because it's a normal part of being a human is doing something. Yeah. Tangible. See something get completed. Yes. A project get done or something being built. I was working on one of my motorcycles this weekend and making a lot of modifications to it. And I mean, my wife was like having to call me, you know, because we had to go somewhere. And I'm just I'm staying out in the garage. If we had to be somewhere at five, leave at 5:30. I mean, I'm out there at five to five. She's telling me you got to come in and take a shower at five, at 5.05, at 5.08, at 510. Okay. And I don't want to leave it. Yeah. All right. And during that time, I completely block everything else out. Yeah. And then when I'm and I figure out what how to do what I'm doing, it's so gratifying. I'm like, God, why don't I do this more? I when I was a kid, I would focus in on things like that. And it's it's just such a great feeling.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

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Reading Customers Like A Waiter

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Well, I think that what um you know, that kind of comes back into balance or whatever you want to call it, but we call it integration. But you know, uh the biggest release is when you don't think about all the other things that are going on in the business, right? Like this. You have to have that that's the separation. That's what's so hard though. It is, but but I think that the reason the the way to really force your way into that is to be doing something that has to require your focus and attention, just like what you're talking about. You know, I like to I used to love that, that's what I love about mountain biking. You know, as I get on a mountain bike and it wasn't You can't be looking at your phone. Dude, you can't be thinking about anything else, you're gonna smack the tree. Yeah, exactly. You know, and so there's some danger to it, right? Same thing with like, you know, if I'm on that uh excavator trying to build a new little trail or road or something, I'm like sitting on the edge of a freaking hillside. I'm like, okay, bro, yeah, where's the track at? You know, as I'm backing up. That happened the other day. Better not be talking, man. And you better not be thinking about you know something else somebody needs, you know, or that you have a deadline looming. And but I mean, I think that escape is is really valuable and people need to find what that is for them. You know, it could be a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Well, I think too, when you do that, sometimes you do make those creative breakthroughs 100% because it even during the activity of what you're doing that's not related to that, it somehow blocks out all the excess shit.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Well, hey, so on that, I have always proven again and again to myself, my intuition, my gut thought is always seems to be the right way. Oh, I know. You know, no matter I don't know. I don't even know what circumstance that I've that where if I if I that I should not have listened to it or that I, you know, was happy that I chose a different, you know, a logical reason. But I think that when we get that focus out into something else, our gut and our intuition is actually working better. It's starting to grow again instead of being beaten down by our logic and reasoning and what what the hell everybody else is saying. And expectations of others. Yeah, and I mean, and and you know, like a good example that I had that's been time proven in every circumstance is I know that this person is not doing a really great job. They're not help, they're helping not progress in the company, right? They need to make a change. And I'm like, I know that that's the right thing to do, but then my emotions come in. Oh man, but they're so nice. I know.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

You know, oh you rationalize. You start rationalizing, you get emotional about it. You know, well, what's what's Jimmy gonna think about me letting her go? Yeah, right. Sarah gonna think about letting him go. You know, it it's and so you start allowing all these other things to compile against it, but the whole time the right decision. And the longer you elongate that decision, the worse and worse and worse it gets, and the more complex it gets.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Well, I don't know. Working with software developers and all, but I can tell you, working with architects and engineers, particularly engineers, is anytime you want to follow your intuition or just do things, they see that as unprofessional or you're a hip shooter, or you don't know what you're doing. We know how to do it right, you don't know how to do it right, but they can't get it in some cases, they can't get things done.

SPEAKER_04 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

I I I I never see enough experimentation and trying things, yeah, as opposed to coming up with the perfect solution right out of the box the first time because we spent so much time planning and along the way that we know, you know, it it it kills businesses, I think. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. More action, more experimentation, more just trying stuff. I mean, I think that that's the But it's looked down on by a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Well, it is, but I think I I do think that that's where Silicon Valley area has the re the biggest reason that they I mean man, that their business practices and their cultural mentality like that about testing, trying, getting to market is like it's such a a different scale than every other business under the sun right now. I mean, because they're willing to take risks and push things out that are not perfect and then kind of reiterate, reiterate. Yes. And just and they're always launching, launching, launching. Like it's amazing about how their speed to market and their speed to, you know, to evolve is like it's it's you know, it's something to be uh I mean, you know, greatly appreciated by every other type of business that's out there.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Well, people do it with their business plans too. And then instead of starting and doing something and getting paid by somebody to do it, they want to perfect it. Yeah. And then they never really get it out of the gate. Yeah.

unknown 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

I mean, you know, that that holds a lot of entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

And I mean, I've I don't know that I don't I don't know that I've ever really started a business that I actually planned. Yeah. I know, I get it. I've planned some businesses I never started, but I don't know that I've started a business that I really planned, you know. Yeah. I mean, because a lot of it, again, is the gut. Like, I mean, like, dude, I know there's just like this business, I know that there's a market. I know that there's a massive problem. There's one that has to be fixed. I can s I can sense you've proved it. I mean technology, the the ecosystem continue. Like when I saw that thing, that freaking here's what drives when I see the freaking stat about podcasts are now have superseded radio. And back like in 2009 or something, it was saying that it was only 15% of what radio was doing. And now it's at like 60%. You know, and so it took all these years, but it was so obvious to me. Like, who wouldn't want to have more control over what they listen to? You know, and the same thing for the robots. What robot doesn't want to have new fresh content that it hasn't, that their competitive robots makes total sense haven't already chomped out and said it makes it makes absolutely total sense. You know, why do we have to wait until the data gets here to say that we're right? But the really the intuition is pretty clear.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

You know, like, and that's why I'm not really afraid of all this other stuff. It's like they, you know, you get these stats come out and these people have opinion, but at the end of the day, like you're dealing with with humans and you're dealing with robots, and what do they want? They want new fresh content. How do you get that?

SPEAKER_03 40:09

Why are you so good at figuring out what the other guy wants? Why, why? I mean, you you constantly go back to that. Well, I've uh uh you know what the customer, what the customer wants, what the client wants. Um because I waited tables. Is that it? Hell yeah, bro. Uh huh.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Watch them over there, right? Dude, I I remember like I remember being like in the wait station. And everybody's fine. I'd have four tables, but I'd just sit there and I'd watch them and I'd see them do that. Uh huh. I'm like, boom, I'm gonna hit them up with some more tea. I'm like, as soon, because you know, I knew that they're at a little bit above half.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Yeah, they got some ice in there, and that much really left.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Yeah, well, I mean, I would catch them when they get right past that halfway line.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

But if I got them above the halfway line, like that's a little annoying. Yeah. And a little ridiculous. But below the halfway line, it's like really good, right? Yeah, and then I'd watch them too. You know, they'd take their last, like they'd be sitting there eating's, and I'd be like, Eat, you know, take that last dot, you know. Boy, I'm gonna come get that plate, you know. And as soon as they I'd be walking over there, drift their paid their plate out of the way, they'd have a nice clean space. I mean, so you just observed. Observed and um and predicted, you know, and and and was just trying to be at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing, you know. And so, I mean, I think waiting, and then you'd have the checks, you know, and as soon as, you know, I knew I knew I could sense when they're wanting to pay their bill and get out of there, you know.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Drives me crazy when they give you the bill and then they leave for 30 minutes. Yeah. I'm like, service, service, service. Then I get the bill and then they're gone. I can't pay them.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

I wanted people to like have the bet like again, I would recognize they might spend 30 or 50 bucks on that meal. You know, like that stuff's not like that's expensive, you know. I mean, but I mean, I wanted them just to have this great experience and I wanted to be part of that, you know, and I wanted recognition as well. I wanted them to leave and tell the manager, hey man, that server is ridiculously good, like the best one that you know. I mean, it's kind of competitive, I guess, in a way, you know. Sure. Um, but a lot of it's from waiting tables, man.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Yeah. Well, whatever it is, it got you unusually tuned in. Yeah. You know, I because I don't think a lot of business owners are that good at that. I think a lot of people, you know, they do well if they aim a business at people like themselves. All right. That is one strategy that I think is a good strategy because you understand you and you understand what your needs are, and there's probably other people like you. Yeah. So if you design your business around you, you, you know, you're probably going to find a certain market. Now, not all businesses can be done like that, obviously. Right. Yeah. And then it takes a better, maybe a higher level of skill to be able to really understand what clients and customers want. Yeah. Because you're not always the client or customer.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

No, not at all. Especially even back at White Spider. I mean, I've never worked at Walmart or a retailer. Right. And I never worked for a supplier as a brand. But yet I service both of them.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

That's why when you first told me you were going to go after consumer products, I'm like, why do you want to do that? Hell are you going to know anything about that? You're an idiot. Boy, was that ever bad advice.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

But it but you can see their pain points. Like I think it's an easy thing to visualize. Like they have a lot of problems. They had a lot of problems. Fix the problems, and it doesn't even be sexy. Just fix the production problems, make their life a little bit easier, make it faster, make it less expensive, make them a hero.

Listener CTA And Closing

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Let them have a great experience walking off the table. Make them a hero inside big organizations. It's a really big deal. It's a huge, huge deal. That's a really big deal. All right, man. I think we blew past. Tom. It's been fun talking though, and I've learned a lot.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

And uh and I always do when I talk with you. Thanks, Mark. I appreciate that. And this has been another fantastic episode of that Big Talk about SmallBusiness.com.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

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