Sell Through Trust: Building Real Relationships

Sales is the part of business most people want to outsource first, and it’s also the part you can’t afford to ignore. We get real about why founders have to sell early on, even if they’re introverted, technical, or allergic to the “salesy” stereotype. For us, selling is simple: understand the problem, tell the truth, and earn trust one conversation at a time. That mindset matters even more in B2B sales, where the buyer is choosing a long relationship, not a quick transaction.

We talk through the habits that actually build a pipeline in small business: showing up in your community, treating every meeting like it matters, and staying persistent through the follow-up grind. You’ll hear why small gestures can keep you top of mind, why confidence dips are normal, and why integrity closes deals faster than clever scripts. We also dig into a value-first approach where contribution comes before margin, and how the “hidden” benefits of marketing and reputation often beat what your spreadsheets can measure.

Then we shift into the hard part: hiring salespeople. Great sales interviews can fool you, psychological tests can be gamed, and the real issue is belief. If a salesperson doesn’t believe the product is worth the price, they won’t last. We break down the real math behind performance, why the salesperson is carrying payroll, and how splitting the sales process into prospecting, founder-led closing, and operational follow-through can reduce risk. We wrap with how to coach a new hire through the first 100 days and how sharing customer stories can get your whole team aligned.

If this helps, subscribe, share the show with a business owner who needs a sales reset, and leave a review so more people can find us. What’s the one sales habit you want to build next?

Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!

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Transcript

o Salespeople Need Industry Knowledge

SPEAKER_03 0:00

For a lot of people that are hiring salespeople, do they need to really understand my industry? Did they come out of my industry? Do they come out of the types of clients that we are trying to go sell to? Back in the studio today. It's another episode of that big talk about small business.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

It's freaking awesome.com. Sign up, subscribe, send us money. Send us products.

ales Creates The Good Problems

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Send us money. Send us money. Send us money. We'll talk up your product if we like it, though. That's right. We're not just for sale at any price here. So we have our standards.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Let's let's kick off about talking about sales. So if you're starting a business, I would say the most important number one thing that you could do. Skill to have. Skill, action, priority, freaking investment towards. Yeah. Sales. Yes. And finding you a good sales structure, team, director, associates, presentations, sales, sales, sales, sales. Because like we talked about, there's only problems in business. They're either good or bad. Right. Sales brings good problems. Everything else brings bad problems.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Yes. The the good part about sales is you get revenue, right? Yes. The bad part is you actually have to do it. That's right. That's right. But who cares as long as you have the revenue? Exactly. You can do it. Figure that out, right? Yeah. 100%. I mean, it starts with you, though, as the owner. You've got to be able to sell, right? If you can't sell it, nobody's going to do it for you, probably. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

And you don't have to be, quote unquote, a good salesperson. But you have to be the one out there doing sales. You're always selling as the entrepreneur. As a matter of fact, most of the great entrepreneurs I've met are excellent at selling. Yeah. And they may not be trying to sell, but they know the product intimately. They see the vision. They are out there. They're they're having c conversations with their clientele, making custom type of project plans and scopes, and they can make the decisions.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

You know? They know what problem it solves. Yes. That yes. Isn't that fundamental? 100%. I mean, 100%. But you're so right about that when you say you don't have to be the quote sales persona that a lot of people think is required, you know, that you're some super extrovert or whatever. You really don't.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

You can you can be a lead programmer, entrepreneur, starting your business, like we had we've had a couple of folks in here talking about. But remember the one conversation we had, he's a great programmer, has the idea about Sean. Yeah, Sean. Yeah. Sean doesn't want to be the one selling. Right. But you can't do that, Sean, if you're listening to this episode. That's true, Sean. And we talked, we talked about that. Yeah. And I feel like that he kind of disregarded, because no nobody wants to admit that that's what needs to be happening, because that's like a that's that is such an uncomfortable territory for him. Yep. But he the reality is, is like he is still the best salesperson for the entire organization. And he has to be leaned into that. He has to absolutely be leaned into it.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Yeah. I mean, I think about like Joe Sumweber, who was also on our show. Joe is not your stereotypical salesperson. The glib, fast talker, uh, extrovert. No, I I mean, I think Joe's probably an introvert. Yeah. But he's solid. He's not full of bull. Okay. He's sincere. Yep. He understands what the problem is and how they're going to solve it. Yep. Selling to me is solving somebody's problem. 100%. It's not convincing them to do something they don't want to do. Right. I mean, especially when you look at like B2B sales. Yeah. You know, it it it I mean, maybe B2C sales people make more impulsive purchases, right? But in a business, uh it's got a lot of impacts.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

The client needs to understand fully. They need to have confidence and have trust. It's a longer relationship. Yes. Hopefully. Yeah. And it takes more for a business to get you procured into their system. And I mean, so there's a lot of upfront work. And so the decision's heavier. So they have to do a lot of diligence and all that.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

You know, and but to have somebody like a Joe, you know, that can sit across the table, answer all the questions, you know, deep in the weeds, be able to click play credible, yes, build trust. Give the confidence that they're going to go through all this painstaking process as the buyer to get you in the system that you're going to have their back and fix problems.

hy Founders Must Sell

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah, exactly. You know? Yeah, it's so true. You know, so what are some of the things that you found just off the top of your head made you the most effective seller? Because you've always been a great seller. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Yeah, I think that uh my personal experience, uh, I mean, I would say the number one thing is, and this is a really hard one, not maybe in the beginning. Okay. If it's your first time, when I first started my first business, this was just a natural thing I did. And like it was exciting and exhilarating. It wasn't exhausting to me. And that's just being connected and meeting people. Sure. There is no such thing to me as a bad meeting, like or a waste of time meeting, right? What I'm calling bad. Like every single person that I've ever met my entire life has kind of built this opportunity inertia. And it just keeps widening and widening and widening the older I get, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:52

You're so know people and you're so right on that. Yeah. Can I just jump in on that? Yeah. Because like last night and and well, Monday and Tuesday, I had in my three classes Wes Taylor, who's the president of NWA Steel, which is going to be like a$30 million company this year. That's great. From a million dollar company in 2013 or whatever. I mean, it's unbelievable. But you know, it's exactly what he said last night in my class. He goes, you know what? He goes, everybody out here, he goes, you all could be my client someday. Okay. You could be my biggest client. My business may depend on you. And it's that type of attitude of treating everybody with kindness, respect, uh, giving them your attention that builds that goodwill of that thing that you just said. Because we're all connected. 100%. And you know, especially when you start again talking about either a business that serves a local market, which a lot of our small business owners do, or a business that's focused on an industry. Yes. Very tightly focused on one industry. Because it might as well be local, even though that could be all over the world, right? Because everybody talks and everybody moves between all those organizations.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

There's there's no there's nothing better than having a reference when you go, if I met you, and then I say, Hey, and you mention, you know, somebody's name, um, you know, Donnie Hubbard or something, you know, Donnie. Sure. And then I'm like, yeah, I've known Donnie. And then you I'll leave, and then you run into Donnie and say, Hey, I've been meeting with Eric. Right. What do you think about him? Is what you're gonna say. Exactly. Donnie's gonna be like, dude, he's great. Been working with him for years, totally solid. Yeah, he and what he does is really he does what he says he can do. Right? It's like and God knows you just close the deal.

unknown 7:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

But it's because I didn't screw Donnie. Exactly. You know, and I was but my point in the beginning was is I showed up in places as much as possible to have the chance to even meet Donnie five years ago, ten years ago. You're right, yeah. And so, you know, what I found is most effective, and so in the beginning, that's that's kind of easy, especially because you're just kind of ignorant, you know, in entrepreneurship, you know, you're you're get you're naive about all the the pains that are about to come unfolding up across your entire existence of life, but you're excited. Well, you don't know everybody either yet.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

You don't know everything, you don't know everybody, you don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Oh, you don't know about sales and use tax reports that you gotta do every quarter that piss you off and somebody's gotta do, but anyway, and so I'm just running around excited to promote the product, but over time I found that as business becomes more complex, like you start having to work on the stuff that you've sold. Sure. And you stop showing up. And so my point is You can't stop showing up. Like it has to stay at the highest priority. And I do that, like I actually do it almost to a fault. Like this morning, I'm over at the coffee shop. I've been at the coffee shop since freaking 7:30 this morning.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

And I probably have ran into 15 people. Oh, that coffee shops on it. And I've had three meetings.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

I don't go in there when I don't see somebody I know.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Oh, 100%. I'm always meeting there. I'm meeting with somebody that's that's that's that's looking for a job now. Has nothing to do with what I'm doing, right? But he's a good person in the community. I've known him for a long time. Trying to help him out? Help him out. He's helped me out. I mean, like that's all good. Yeah. You know, but I do that all the time.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

I I do the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

And I can't I can't go, this isn't worth it.

how Up And Build Momentum

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Yeah. I can never do that. Because you never know when it's gonna come back to you. You know, it always does. It does. Well, it we're all connected. I mean, people can say whatever they want. You can call it karma, you can call it God, you can call it whatever you want. Yeah. Okay. But the fact is that we are all connected in ways we don't understand. 100%. And you put the good out there and it comes back to you. You know, so what else though have you found? So you you get out, you got to get yourself exposed, you gotta show up. What else do you is has been part of your um success in selling, you think?

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Uh I'm I've been told I'm extremely persistent. Yeah. And I don't know that that might be a natural thing, you know, for for me. Like I just I can't it's more of like I believe that this is good for them, and and I'm just gonna keep knocking until something happens, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Well, it's the same way you treat your businesses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you you encounter obstacles, things that would shut other people. Yeah, yeah. But you just keep going. And then you you you you overcome every time, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

When I follow back up later and they need me and everything's okay now. Right. Right. And always work.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Boy, I understand that.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Yeah, right. Yeah. And uh so I think that persistence is is a key. Like sure. There's a lot of stats to it, you know, even like for professional salespeople, you know, um, that are even popular influencers. You know, it's like it takes seven follow-up follow-up contacts. Oh, yeah, we've all heard that one. Right. But I mean, but it's so true. Seven contacts before you're gonna make the sale or yeah, and you gotta have seven deals in the pipeline to close one. I mean, it's like there's there are numbers out there, there are odds that bear out over time, right? Yeah, and it's who's the person that's gonna play the quantitative game. Yes. And and so you can't that's that and you have to have persistence to get through those things, you know, because I I'll I'll be the first to admit, like when I worked for a company, I remember I was selling title insurance, you know, of all things, and I baked all these Otis Spunkmeyer cookies, which by the way, when you bake your own Otis Spunkmeyer cookies, you can get into the Pentagon with these things because everybody loves them so much. I didn't even know you sold title insurance. Oh, yeah. There's always something about you. That's right. I did it for about a year and a half or so, and but I had my own Otis Spunkmeyer cookie oven in the office. This is I'm sorry, it's been everywhere. Most genius sales strategies of all time. Uh-huh. Get you an Otis Spunkmeyer cookie oven.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

You get frozen cookies, you make them cookies, and you make cookies there at the office. Uh-huh. And you put them in bags, like two double, two chocolate chips. And you just you fold the little package and you staple your business card on it. And then you got like 20 cookie deliveries. Who doesn't like that? Dude, I'm telling you, it's wonderful. And I would drive around Northwest Arkansas. I love it. But knocking on banks and brokers and stuff like that. And I'd walk in and I'd have like 10 cookie bags. And Eric loved me so much. Now I'd eat the hell out of them. Yeah. So I got fat. A little oh yeah, you got fat. Yeah, I did. But I mean, I was I was eating too many cookies. But you could get in the door with those cookies, man. Everybody loves cookies.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

That that's funny. You know, years ago, I I remember I was uh an HR director for this company in Texas, and I was constantly getting called on by Kelly girls. That's what it used to be called. Okay. Then it went to Kelly Temp's. Okay. So they they got rid of the quote girls. That was obviously too sexist. Sure. But so I'd have these two women would would they'd come by my office every single month, and they always brought me stuff. Well, they'd bring you. They'd bring me the mouse pad, they'd bring me the coffee cup. They're always Kelly Green, okay? They'd bring me the floppy disk drive, you know. Swag. Yeah, the the keychain, the the whatever, all right? The the stress release, your call, your desktop calendar is full, and it's like all these billboards for Kelly Tempts, all right? And then lo and behold, one day that the the receptionist is not gonna be there, and the backup person is not gonna be there. What do I do? Call who do I call Kelly Times? That works, man. It took them like, I don't know, six, seven, eight, nine months. Yeah. I was just boom, boom, every month. I mean, that's and then they went. And then after that, every time I needed a temp, that guess who I called? Kelly Times. It works, it does work. It's it's amazing how many people don't understand that, but they give up, they go after that. Maybe they bring them the cookies once and they don't get a call in like no bastard over there. I gave him cookies and the guy didn't even thank me. Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

You know, right. I'm not bringing you cookies anymore. You can't have that attitude. That's why you got to have a motive of just like I mean, I think like number one, I would say people don't do that as much because they want an easier path. They want a one-to-many. Yeah. How do I? It's like like they're like they're going to the casino. What are my odds if I can send an email to a thousand people and two of them respond? That was easy for me. And now I just go go after those, versus putting a box full of cookies and driving down the road. No kidding. And and walking. Pressing the flesh, huh? Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I mean, I my point earlier was like, I admit, like, I'd I there'd be times I made all those daggum cookies. Yeah. And I remember this happening a couple of times. And nothing happened. Well, I'd make them and have them in my back seat, right? And I pull up to the bank and I go, they don't want any cookies today. Oh, yeah. Talking yourself out. And I just pull out, I'm like, it's noon. Everybody's at lunch. Oh, me or dude. I know I did it a few times. Sure. But they we've all done that. Yeah. It's another thing. I don't think anybody talks about that much. Yeah. But like that, that lack, that total depletement, depletement of confidence or like you're annoying and uncomfortableness, you know, so much easier. Just, oh, I'm just going to go ahead and go to lunch myself. But I've wasted that opportunity. Sure, you did. And you got to figure out how to pierce through that puppy and to show up with the goddamn cookies.

ersistence Plus Follow Up Stories

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Yeah. What what do you think about the strategy of telling people something that you can't do or that you don't do as well as a way to build trust? Like, you know, you worked as a server at a restaurant. Yeah. And you know that you've, I know you've been to restaurants before where you're like, well, what do you think? Should I get the linguini with the clam sauce, or should I get the chicken uh cachetore? And when they say to you, you know what, we're known for the linguini with the clam sauce, but the chicken cachetore, we don't get we don't sell much of that. Okay. Yeah. As a tactic to build trust. Yeah. What do you think about that as a sales approach? People love that, man. I mean, sometimes you got to give people the news. Like, you know, I was I do a lot of business, done a lot of business with the Lewises over there, Lewis Automotive Group. I mean, it's really, if I need a car, the first place I'm gonna go is to see them. Yeah. Okay, because I know them. I also do a certain amount of business with Superior. I mean, it depends on the brand. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Because I know the people who own Superior also. And but you know, I just I I think back, and I've had great good experiences with both of them, but I I think back on times and I've said to Matt, like, what do you think about this vehicle or this kind of a of a deal? And he's like, No, you don't want that. Okay. That's not like thank you. He never BS's me. Yeah. So that's where I mean, it just immediately builds trust when you can give people like it would be to his best interest to sell that. Sure. Or the same thing I get out of my real estate broker, Dale Carleton. I've done, you know, 150, 200 transactions with whatever. I mean, there's been times when he's like, no, you don't decide on you. You could have made a you know, a uh six-figure commission on that. And you're like, no, you don't want that. You know, well, I respect that so much.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

I think that it's a lot of this is like again, going back to the entrepreneur, you're starting up a business, and you know that you you are your greatest salesperson, and you need to be focused on that. Right? You might be a product engineer, but you've got to be thinking, how do I go market and how do I sell this thing? Yeah. Then you got to show up, you got to be persistent, like things we talked about. But I think that there's a there's a core piece here to what you're talking about, that your ambition is not about money. Right. Your ambition is to contribute value to the market and and to build the trust and relationships with people. Yes. And the money is a byproduct.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

It is a things, that's it. You show up, and and and you build that trust, you solve the problem, then the money comes.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

100%. We got a good case in point is right now at podcast videos, we got a great opportunity. Can't go into much. You know, decent amount of work, right? Good revenue. Yep. But the team's already been like, you know, looking at the costs, and and they're looking at a mentality, but as a mentality of like, okay, good amount of revenue. Now, how do we make good margin on this so that it's a good business, a good financial? Yeah. And I'm over here going, hell no. I want to spend every penny that's coming in that door back onto that client. Exactly. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Because the potential is great. Yes. Yeah, don't let the nickel get so big it hides the dimes behind it.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Like as a matter of fact, I might lose money on this because I'm going to here's what I'm gonna do. Yeah. I am gonna blow the minds of that client. Yeah. And I'm gonna perfect the product that we built.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Exactly. There's a residual value of doing it because it creates a whole new line.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yes, I they they buy more. Now I go to the market, sell more, and now I have a great case study and a great reference. The money's gonna come.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

Why do we see that though? And our people don't always see that. I've always hated to give up any revenue. Okay, it's always been my attitude. I don't want to give up any revenue. I want to figure out how to do it, and I want to fit, and as you said, it's a model. This is a model for how we can go forward.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yes. And those and people that haven't been in business a long time don't understand. Like, I have been, and we have been investing in building a business to get to this little sacred opportunity point. Sure. There is so much equity in the company and time and human capital to get this little opportunity, and you're going to potentially turn that away because it's not proper. Because you're pitching, right? Have we all lost our God-saying minds? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Because opportunities do not come very often. Well, the other thing, I've I I know we've said this before, and I'm sorry to be repetitive, but people don't understand the idea of spreading your overhead cost out over a larger base. They don't realize. So let's just say you did that and you spent every dime you made on it to do it. All right. It's still covered overhead. Yeah. That then means that everything else you do is more profitable because you're paying the expense of some of those people and facilities and all is charged to this thing over here that quote doesn't make money, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Well, let's leave a really good example. Big talk about small business does not make us money. The company of podcast videos money. Don't make you and I money either. No, it makes no money. It costs people money. But there was the reason we, you know, I wanted to, you know, to to invest in this from podcast videos, because it helps our team work. Right. We learn things through it, right? It you're doing business with your own business. Yes. I was the first client of business. Isn't I mean see that's so important. So I can see and watch how the experiences. Right. And then I the team can have some portfolio. They have and it's safer ground to screw up. Because I mean, they don't like it's not good to get in trouble by the owner and and hit and the and the host of a show. Right. With the acumen and and and superiority that you have over other people. But like no one wants to be in trouble from what the hell is that? That was just me talking smack. But but it does apply the a real pressure in a in a less risky environment. It's a laboratory. It's using your own business as a laboratory. It is. But my my biggest thing is I would not want to cancel this show now. Like let's say we learned all we could from it, right? Yeah. Because there's some value that's coming out of this. Like we're able to, with the social videos, shorts that we're sending out from Big Talk that flow through and it's connected to podcast videos. So it's a marketing vehicle.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Exactly. Yeah, we get to talk up podcast videos and how great it is.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

I mean, it's true though. And it adds to our overall analytics.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

And then, you know, podcast videos can reshare that with their networking. So it demonstrates more of the quantitative. And so, like, as to your point though, like, why would like a normal person would go, oh, well, you're not making, okay, well, let's strike that entire show, kill it. I'd be like, no, dude.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

That's the problem, in my opinion, with the quote, these people who quote, we want data-driven decisions. All they want is data-driven decisions. What data are you looking at? Is my question. All decisions are data driven. I'd never say that. Okay. Yeah. Because the data is not always clear. It's not all, I can't just quantitatively say, well, what we make on doing this show, right? Mm-hmm. Because there's all these residual benefits. Yeah. It's not easy. It's always been the problem with marketing in general. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like that's why everybody loves online marketing. We can see how many hits we get and freaking how long they spend on our site and how much shit they buy.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

But at the kernel of nobody really knows why people clicked and engaged. Exactly. But we know that one did it, but why? Let's reproduce it. Nothing more. Yeah. What there's some sort of something else there. We're not measuring, right? There's a connection. Data. There's a relation. Yes. On that video or that content that went out that people related to. Yeah. And therefore they liked it. Yeah. And they shared it. Yeah. They commented and engaged with it. But if you try to if you, you know, but that was accidental in a lot of times. Yeah. Or it was just built upon something. It's because you had an opinion or a perspective. Or yeah, exactly. You contributed to the entire to the body of knowledge. Yeah. To the insight. It's the same thing when you're doing sales around your network. You're, you know, in human to human people want that. Sure. Like, and it still happens at the biggest companies.

arget Lists And Staying Flexible

SPEAKER_03 25:00

There's two things I want to bring up about selling. Okay. I think are important. I think one is you do have to have the right list and know who you're calling on. Yeah, sure. And a lot of people don't ever bother to do that out of the box. I got something big to say about that, though.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Okay, go. Are you waiting on?

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Yeah, no. Oh, wait, I need to say it.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

This is big talk. So it is big talk. My thing about that is yes, you should, as an entrepreneur, have a direction of your target audience. Yeah, exactly. Who your target customer is. But you better be damn ready to flip on a DOM. Things come in across the transit. Yes. And your job is to say, this seems like the most probable audience in the people I want to go connect with. When I start talking to people, though, I need to go in and listen and say, okay, I went after the CMO, that company to introduce my product and my service. Really wasn't the right person to call on. The HR department had more interest. Yeah. So go to the HR department. Oh, next thing you know, you the point of the sales is to discover your right audience. No, you're absolutely right. And have some comfort. It might take a year. It might take five years.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Yeah, no, no question about it. Right. But not everything is new, and you're not always discovering. I mean, some people are out there selling stuff that there's a very clear path of who the decision maker is, right? Yeah. But yeah, you're you're right. I mean, you can't be so fixed that you know, that you can't be fleet and move. But I I just see a lot of people, they never bother to define who their ideal target customer is and maybe their, you know, their secondary targets. And then they never try to build a list. They go, you know, like what's a reasonable geographic reach for this business? Right. You know what I mean? Everybody who could hire us or influence the decision to hire us, is not even the ultimate decision maker. And so if you cast, you know, the the net and you get that defined, then you can do the stuff. The other thing I just wanted to bring up that I think is important, and I know you understand this, you wouldn't have been successful. You call on people even when you're not trying to sell them anything, uh even when they have no need at all, because you just show an interest in them as a humanity of fellow human.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yes. And that goes back to her point earlier. It's the money, the success, the the business is a byproduct. I'm just being genuinely a contributor. Yeah. I think the contributor word to me keeps still like that's when I think about why do I do the things I do, I'm trying to contribute back. I'm trying to add a little bit more value to this planet, you know, in the way because I trust myself to contribute. Like I need to, because if I don't, there's a lot of people that shouldn't be that will be.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Right. You know, I get it. You've got insight you want to share. You've got knowledge that you want to share with people. And it's positive, you want to help people. Yeah, well, I believe that. You know, yeah. And you also make people feel good. Yeah. But that's also part of it. It that's that in a way is contributing. Sure. If you call somebody and you talk to them and when they get out the phone, they like it. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

They they feel more inspired, more energized, helped their day out, gave them some sort of break from all the freaking bull crap that's going on. Yeah. It's like, man, it's nice to because if you call me, say, man, I'm just checking on you, but how you been? I'm like good. I'm like, I might be in the middle of some shit. I'm like, okay, okay, okay. But then I get off the phone and I'm like, you know, Mark gives a shit.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

I know. I was thinking about that. No, I wanted to call you the other day because I was driving, I was coming back from the airport and I drove past your house. Yeah, when I'm there on the hill. It looks fantastic. And they show it to you. And then the three casitas, the way they all lined up out there and tied into it. Yeah, yeah. It's like employee to it. It was like a vision as I as I approached it, you know, and I'm heading toward it, just the whole thing just came into view there. I thought, wow, that's fantastic. Good. I'm glad you can't. It's really taken form as it's been framed.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah, man. Uh, I'm gonna need to have you out there, and that's all of my wife that did that. Like she had a great total vision for that.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

It's a great site plan and and and the forms I think really look good out there. But see, if I had done that, yeah, you might have said, that's nice, you know. Mark, Mark noticed our house going up out there. Yeah, engaging my life. Yeah, it makes me feel good about all the millions of dollars I'm spending. Yeah, a little good, but right now. Yeah, even though I'm like, God, but it's all out. Everything just goes out. That's the mode I'm in right now. We bought another house, too. I don't even know if I told you. Yeah, yeah. We close on it less than two weeks. This is after the house that you just bought. Yeah, that well, that was two years ago. I mean, now we redid that house and we're still working. How long have you been living in that new house, the house you're in right now? Two years. No, it has not. It is we moved in in in like March. Yeah, we did. Of 2028. Of 2024. Yeah. And we're still spending money on that. And I said to my wife, I'm like, oh my God, honey, I go, you realize all it's gonna be between now and the time we sell our current house is just outflow, outflow, outflow, outflow, outflow. Okay. So I guess if I showed you my new house we're buying, and you said, Oh, that's really gonna be great, you know? You're really gonna like that. You get excited and you're okay to run a check. Yeah, then you'd be like, Can I hit you up for a$500 contribution to the American Heart Association?

SPEAKER_04 30:43

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

Yeah, man, I'm appreciated.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

It's so true, man. You have to be that contributor, that yeah, that relational person, because it is relations, man. Yeah, and and I'll be honest with you, like speaking of that, my experience in in business, when I look back about what has been the most rewarding, gratifying, you know, after all the crap that comes of running your business, what I love and what I appreciate is knowing, is knowing the amount of people that I've gotten to know. Oh, yes. The team. It's looking back absolutely, it's looking back at White Spider in the early days when we were freaking grinding and everything was seeing doom and gloom, and you know, but the team's working really hard, and we came together as a team and fixed some things and got through some challenges together. That is why everything is worth it, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:34

That's why we all love these sports movies where people overcome these objects, or the coach comes into the team, it's a complete disaster. We all love those things. They're all like the worst players, and suddenly they're the, you know, by just a little bit of perseverance, yeah, they kill it, you know? Yeah, or the people who just get turned down over and over and over, the performers, and then suddenly they're you know, they break through. It that's those are some of the most rewarding things, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

It's it's it's it's overcoming, it's yeah, it's building, yeah. It's creating and contributing, you know, and and and I think that that's like with that attitude. So now when I look at it, like I literally in my brain, and I'm just being you know, reflecting here, because I don't necessarily have to go out and meet a lot of people right now. I don't have to, there's a lot of work I should be doing. I'm constantly battling my time. Well, yeah, that stuff's coming to you. Yeah, it's yeah, it's constant this turmoil, but I still like I still go meet specifically with people that don't have any contribution back towards me or a sale. You want to say that I'm not in a sales meeting, I go meet with them because like that's it gives value to everything.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Of course. I I do the exact same thing. Yeah, you do. I'm not trying to sell anything, but I mean, if you look at my coffee, lunch, breakfast call schedule with people You meet with a lot of students. Sure, I do. I mean, the majority of them aren't gonna do me any good necessarily, but uh that's not the point. You're so right. So I think I guess if the there's any moral to all this story, aside from some of the things that we've talked about of getting out there, hitting the numbers, being providing value, being helpful, building trust, all those things. Um, I I think that the the somehow this I'm not selfish and short-term oriented has to be part of the success formula for salespeople. That's right.

iring Salespeople And Real Numbers

SPEAKER_02 33:42

It's I don't think it has necessarily almost anything to do with it. Now, what I would say it starts coming into play as you're growing. And this kind of makes me want to go on to the other topic about okay, what about hiring a salesperson? Okay, what about it? Because it comes at some point, like you, it's again the quantitative game, right? You need somebody that's possible, you know, you need to conquer, divide, and conquer, or or to scale and multiply. You got to bring on more salespeople. Right. And and I would say to an to a to an entrepreneur, that's the most difficult role in the world to find a great contributor with you because you got so many things against you. Number one, salespeople in general are really great at interviews.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

That's what I was gonna say. That was my first thought. They are good at selling themselves into the job.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

So much always. Always are. I mean, they follow up, yeah, they put on their best, they show up, they smile, you know, they buy your coffee for you. You're so right about that. They're doing all those things, man. That's what they're the best at. Hell yeah, and they should be. Yeah, you know, yeah, but but it's it's was my exact thought. You know, but the thing I've experienced a lot of times is just because the great interview doesn't mean they're gonna be a great person. And so you go through a few of those, and you're like, what you know, really trying to find that person that you can that you can entrust is going to come into the business and their number one job, and and it and it's so funny to me, salespeople don't think about this, but they are literally the ones carrying the weight of the payroll. Sure. A good salesperson has a deep respect, yes, they feel that shit. Yeah, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, this is a serious job. Yeah, it is the most serious job in this company. Yeah, and a lot of times, and I think in general, the society and culturally, a lot of the salespeople don't even see that. Yeah. Like they don't, they don't even think about it. I'm like, and I and I'm and I kind of beat it into them like, hey, you know that everybody here is depending on it. Yeah, exactly. So you want them to feel the heat. Oh, I do, because I don't want them to pull up with a box of cookies and look at the dorm and say, Oh, nobody wants to talk to me. That's a selfish thing. Uh huh. But you're like you you're and by the way, you need to be making about 10 times what you're getting paid. Yeah. So if your base if your base is at 60,000, you're getting 10% commission, that means you need to be bringing in what? About what would that be? Well, it depends on what the margins are for the business. Well, sure. Yeah. Yeah, but but you need to be bringing in about$40,000 a month a new business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

For you to make there's always a ratio there. I used to do this with the architects and engineers. I'm like, okay, we got a$150,000 full-time BD person. They got to bring in three million dollars worth of work. Don't tell me they brought in a million dollars worth of work. That's that's not good enough.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

And if you're not careful as an entrepreneur, you're just like happy to get a million, but it's like, wait a minute, these numbers are gonna continue to do it. It's not gonna work. Yeah, and then you get a salesperson that thinks they're doing really good because they closed the deal. Well, great for a job for closing the deal, but hate to be the one that tells you this. You need your job. Hey, that's your start of your job. You need to be like 10 times what you just did. Yeah. They have to be, and and I'd say the other thing is is like why the entrepreneur makes the best salesperson is because they have they can see the vision, they can see the problem, they see the went in business, they understand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:13

A good salesperson has to get along with that. See, this is always a debate, I think, for a lot of people that are hiring salespeople. Do they need to really understand my industry? Did they come out of my industry? Do they come out of the types of clients that we are trying to go sell to? My experience is that that, even though they've got to have these other characteristics, I don't minimize that because I think they're so much easier for them to identify with the customer when they can say, I've been over there and you're on the table. I, you know, I man, I went through the same thing. That that that's why I'm over here now doing what I do is so I can help people like you because I come from that world. It's like, you know, it's the same thing selling motorcycles. You know, it's like I honestly don't want to have anybody out there selling our motorcycles at Janus if they're not a motorcycle person. Now we could go hire salespeople all day long, but if they don't really understand what makes our bike unique, compared, they can't just be even a Janice person. Right. They've got to have a broader perspective. No, what a Harley, Jens, Indy, all these different brands. Why we've got the unique uh offering, value proposition that nobody else has that they would not have if they weren't familiar with that. They could be a really friendly person, they can follow up, they can answer the phone, they can do all that stuff, but they've got to at least have that too, I think, to ultimately be successful.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

You know, and I would say, like, okay, what you're talking about is like that's a really hard person to find. Oh, that's a super hard person. Yeah, you know, they're already in business for themselves. What I think, yeah, right. Yeah, most likely. Those are my competitor. Right. Exactly. But you know, when I look at this, like what I've been doing is in a small business. So I'm talking about small startup business, yeah, which is much different than a Walmart or a JB Hunt that can afford they can get real professionals.$500,000 professionals.

SPEAKER_03 39:17

It's still them from the Johnson and Johnson, Proctor and Campbell.

plitting Sales Into Prospect Close

SPEAKER_02 39:22

That's a different, we're not that's you shouldn't be listening to the show. No, that's big talk about big business. That's another it'd be a little talk about a big business, you know, because we know that little. But what I've done is in the small business world, is I've looked at sales more as a box or as a departmental thing. And and I meet people and I'm like, they would be good at prospecting. Yeah. Oh, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

You just buy the process. Yes, totally different deal. Because what you're talking about is a closer. They're the initiators. That that doesn't take the same skill set. Yeah. It takes the hitting the numbers. That's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Get it on LinkedIn. Get on LinkedIn and hit four people up. You know, and I tell them what the audience is, right? And then the mechanics, yeah. And and they're kind of like training to be in sales, you know. And yeah, you're right. Because what I found is yeah, but I've I've I've lied to myself as a business owner. I'm an entrepreneur and I'm I'm I'm just doing playing so many cards. Man, I'm tired or whatever, and I need to focus over here or do this. I got these other problems. I'm like, man, somebody, and in my brain, like, this is the easiest damn thing in the world to sell. Like, I can walk into a client meeting and I don't even show a presentation. I just talk to them and I'm like, what's your problem? Oh, well, here's my solution for that, you know. Yeah. It's easy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

I can see the future, you know, and what this thing's gonna do and why they don't do it right now, and what problem, you know, and all the other products that they could use and what's wrong with them, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Someone find me a good salesperson, and hey, I need you to go do that while I'm over here doing this. And and I find out real quickly, I'm like, wait a minute, why aren't they closing? Why aren't they reaching out to more people? It's because they have such a huge learning curve that, and then it it starts deteriorating on them and it starts becoming like this thing that's not good. But I've started to be able to piece it off to where I'm like, man, this person is like got a really strong, charismatic engagement, you know, like Jeremiah.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

Sure, exactly. He's great at meeting people, he's a great press in the flesh, he smiles, and everybody's like, who's that? And yeah, who are you?

SPEAKER_02 41:30

What do y'all do? Like, he is that guy that like no, I get it. Walking, I can just see him like open up the double doors at the convention center, yeah, at a big trade show and everybody watches. Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

No, I get it. Pike has videos all over the place. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right about that. And so he would be great at opening those doors is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Yeah, exactly. And so why why put more pressure on something in in that role? You know, that there's more that they can do in this in this box, you know, uh versus but the closing side, how do I get more engaged in that? Like we're so it helps me because now my box got smaller on the sale side. If I can just show up to important meetings, yeah, you vetted out the opportunities. Exactly. That's what you're saying. And then even I come in and then I have somebody else that takes the reins and just records everything, produces the quote, sure, follows up, does all that. So you can actually as multiplied your effectiveness. You can put box one and three, and you're still in two. But you got to scale to a certain point where you can have that. I mean, don't you? I don't know, man. Like, I think that the in some cases, but if you do it right, like if as long as you're driving revenue, you can help to offload the parts of you as the entrepreneur. But it it requires that kind of that kind of planning, that vision of how those boxes work. Because and then to prioritize that, because what I've done incorrectly and still do today is I get box one and I get box three, and I'm responsible for box two, but then I kind of disregard box two because I'm over here too busy and that's about box two. Right. And I let box one and three try to take care of two, yeah, and then nothing's really closing. Right, I got it. But then I jump back in and two, and then we start closing shit. Then I jump out because I get distracted, and then it starts crumbling down a little bit again. It's but if my my goofy ass would sit there and focus on box two like I should be and quit getting dis because back to the opening discussion, this is the most important thing in the business. Barg on period. No, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

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SPEAKER_02 43:51

That's my problem. We got no business without it. I know, and and and I need console, I need therapeutic help to keep me focused. On box two, because like that's my challenge, right? And is like like if you know, and I try to put on the freaking calendar, I try to make mental notes of I try to force myself if something's always coming up and intervening and and and distracting from my box two work. Yes, I get it. You know, and but but I have been doing a little better. And what I do is I force myself to kind of play more in box one, insert setting meetings on my own of people I know, and it forces me to be in box two because you go naturally from box one to box two, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:34

They don't want to let you out of box two if you met them in box one. That's right. Yeah, you have to go to your in box two because you set the next meeting.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Right, right. I get it. And so I I I I could I could do a lot better job on on even like this discussion. Like, I don't even know that I've even talked about this with my sales team. And this would probably be greatly helpful for them. But those are the types of things I think that like driving that clarity as an entrepreneur in the sales umbrella and how it can work and how you can modify it from a startup with being scrappy. Yeah. You know, because the other thing I'd say box one and three, because they're not the industry experts like you're talking about. Box one's the prospecting and box three is the close, right? Yeah, it's it's the contract. It's the right. And then they what's great about that, box three can then start at box one, two, and and do the full cycle for that same client. Yeah, right. Because we don't need box one and box two anymore, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:30

That's the that's they just keep coming back to box three.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Yeah, and then yeah, and now you can there's a lot more of a pool of people to hire in the ones and the threes than there is the two. But when you put one, two, three, no, you're right about that. It becomes very expensive, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Very risky. No, and and low, like you risky because it's low probability that people are good at both. I get it. Sell your ass during the interview.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Yeah, yeah. I'm so excited you can take this entire thing off my plate, have a good one, take it over, and then you turn around many days later, nothing's closing, and then you got another problem.

esting Skepticism And Belief Matters

SPEAKER_03 46:06

I want to bring up another aspect about all this. When we start talking about hiring salespeople, well, two things. One is we had somebody that made us a proposal recently in one of the businesses I'm involved with that said, we do we use psychological testing for all our salespeople. I'm automatically skeptical of that. I'm sorry, I am very skeptical of that. Send me a psychologist. I was an HR person. I have seen such wildly divergent personalities. Exactly. In fact, my first wife, you know, was a psychologist. Oh, what licensed. All right. Okay. Her um specialist thesis, it's called a specialist paper, was on faking in personality measures, meaning how people can pick up on what the test uh administrators are looking for and give them that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, it's real. People do it all the time and they can pick up on it. I'm I'm very skeptical of that. But I think the other thing, though, that is a big problem with a lot of salespeople, when you really come down to it, they don't believe. They don't, you know, it's always I can sell anything if I believe in it or I believe it's good. I think a lot of salespeople are out there selling stuff that they don't really think is that good or it's worth what they're charging. Yeah. Yeah. How can you overcome that? Can you overcome that? I don't know that you can.

oach Sales Hires For 100 Days

SPEAKER_02 47:39

I don't know that they can. And I think a lot, you know, if they and the the problem is is how do you pick like this the soonest you can maybe pick up on something like that is about 30 to 60 days into the job. If you're lucky. If you're lucky. Yeah. Because, and that's probably the earliest. Yeah. That's yeah. Because like and the problem with sales folks is is like you you have to be very attentive to them. And I don't do the best job that I should on that. I mean, I I I think about it all the time. Like, I I need to get my crap together. I'm talking to you right now. You gotta be selling them. Dude, dude, you have to coach and you have to talk, and you have to you have to build a relationship with them. Yeah, they gotta really become a very tight relational person with you. So if you're an entrepreneur, yeah, you bring on a salesperson, that's like the like you you you basically have brought on a child for your business that you care for that person. You are so right about that. You know, right. Well, and they're gonna, you know, they're gonna go out and party a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Well, I find that with almost anybody I hire. That's fair. I mean, it's like especially early on, they they because I never had a job, I never took a new job I didn't hate or regret when I took it for the first two or three months. Yeah. You know, it's always like, oh my God, what did I get myself into? So if you can help them get through that and you keep selling them on the vision and the mission and why we're doing what we're doing, you can get them past that to the point where now they've got their little internal engine going.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

You're saying that, and a lot of things just hit me all at once. When I when you hired me back at Zwaghwai back then, now Zwai group, I read a book. I mean, like I took your job the job very seriously, and I was like, all right, I'm gonna get my shit together because I've been an entrepreneur. I don't, you know, like now I have something real I gotta do. Yeah, you got a real job, right? Real job with lots expected of you. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of problems. It's a big, yeah, big role. That thing's defined. It's all a mess. Okay. Like, okay, there you go. And so I read that book, First Hundred Days, which is one of the better books I've read in my career. But it's all about the first hundred days of when I start my new job, are the most important for the rest of my trajectory at that company's career, right? And in that in that role. And so I when I walked into it, I was like, these first hundred days, I am going to be relentless about how much effort I'm learning, picking ups, talking to people, meeting everybody in the company, understanding processes. Like I just dove in with that mentality of like, not that I have, I didn't go into the mentality, I'm this is a you know, 10-year career and I'm gonna learn gradually and over 10 years. Yeah. No, first hundred freaking days. Yeah. Well, you're impatient.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

Yeah, yeah. You are a natural business owner. Yeah, okay. It's like this. So you're approaching the job in the same way. Yeah, exactly. No wonder you're successful. Yeah, right. Yeah. But but you not everybody's like that, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

That's fair. But what you just said though is like I need to reverse this. And I need to have quality.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

When I hire somebody, yes, you've got your first hundred days worth of work. That's correct.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

To sell them, to yes, to coach them, to ingrain them, to to give them that vision. And I have never really done that. Yeah.

onnect The Whole Team To Customers

SPEAKER_03 51:02

And that I learned a lot just now. Well, I always learn from these calls. You know, something we're doing at Janice right now, which I think is really good. And I I have to say I insisted on it. So I'm I'm gonna take a little bit of credit. Every sale that we get of a motorcycle, yeah, we send out an email to all employees that says, we just sold a bike to Joe Blow. He's this old, he lives here, he's been following us for three years. He met Bob at the blankety blank. Okay, he was thinking about buying this, but he ended up buying this. And this is the way he set it up, and this is how much he spent on it. Love it. And the whole point of it is to get everybody in the company to understand these are the people we are making happy. These are the people who decided to go ahead. If they call, treat them like you know something about them, right? And it helps you understand why we're doing what we're doing. It connects you with your customer, the person paying your payroll. Yeah, somebody maybe all they do is sit there and put parts in boxes and send them off all day. And they never talk to the customer. Or they screw something onto a bike all day, right? They never talk to the customer. But let's get them connected. Let's get everybody sold. Let's get everybody in line with what we're doing here and see how we make people happy and learn about how they made their decision, even if they're not salespeople.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Everything we talked about today in that last statement is everything's about connecting with other people, customers, internal team, entrepreneur with your team, team with your entrepreneur. It's just all one big connection, the human connection. Yes, it is. And if you're focused on that, and if the more I focus, like it actually mark, I mean, real quick, I know we got build, but when I and we talked about how do I how do I disengage or how do I reduce my stress level? If I'm in the middle of chaos and everything's hitting, everything sucks. Sure. Which happens all this shit you do I do? Yes, forms to fill out like so much. Answering the same question that it's a 10,000th freaking time, you know, all this frustration. When literally what I have found that gets me to a state of uh you know, get out of that, getting positive again, is when I become grateful and I think about the human connections that I make.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

When I walk into this building, and if I literally stop outside the building and I take a couple breaths, I'm like, I'm gonna have to go see Brooke Gallagher, who I've worked with for 15 years. Sure. Brooke Flowers, who's out there just, you know, doing her best to do X, Y, and Z. Bob, who's in here, who's caring so much about the company, Ash, all these people. And now I walk in, it's a whole man. I'm like, I'm rejuvenated, I feel good, and the that connection. But these are the people I spend a lot of time with, and then I'm building something with. Like that, there's there's the community that's the messy building.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

And I'm not trying to be T sell hat hippie about it.

SPEAKER_03 54:07

No, I know it's the truth. No, you're right. I mean, again, I I hate to keep selling you, but you've that's what that's a big part about what makes you unique and successful, is you get that.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

But you do that like you show me how to do that connection thing. Like you would walk in, no, man, I mean no, you've always cared about people. Like and when I took that first hundred days, I noticed that real quick because like you you put expectations on folks, but you genuinely care about their well-being, you know, and I learned a lot from being around you about that because before that I didn't care about humans. Oh come on. No, but I mean, but you did you did show me a lot with that.

rap Up And Listener Outreach

SPEAKER_03 54:45

Well, thanks. I appreciate that. But you you've been a master of it, and it's a big part of your success. And I always say, whenever I get together with you, and I think other people I've said this about you to other people, and it's like, get together with Eric, you always leave feeling better than you did when you got there. That you too, you know, that's a great that helps you sell, okay? I don't care what anybody says. So let's just hang out, man. Yeah, let's do mad old good about maybe we'll sell something. Maybe somebody will finally freaking come along. We will be relentless in hawking your stuff. All right. Well, we gotta wrap it up, buddy. We gotta get on with the rest of the day here. It's been great talking with you, as always. Yes, sir. This has been another fine, fantastic episode of that Big Talk about small business.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk About Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com, and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business. And be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes, and ask questions about upcoming shows.