Earned Media: Why Relationships Aren't Strategy with Ronica Cleary

Most people buy PR the wrong way: they ask “who do you know?” and hope connections turn into coverage. We sit down with Ronica Cleary, founder of Cleary Strategies and a former TV journalist who covered the White House, to talk about what actually drives earned media for a small business: preparation, systems, and a repeatable pitching strategy that does not depend on favors.

We get concrete about what “strategy” looks like in public relations. Ronica walks us through her discovery process and why she will not pitch a new client until they have four to six clear content pillars with talking points and journalist-ready questions. That foundation makes it easier to respond fast to the news cycle, land better-fit podcast guest bookings and media interviews, and reduce the chaos that gives PR a bad reputation. We also talk pricing reality for small businesses and nonprofits, how to spot red flags like guaranteed results, and what transparency and case studies should look like before you sign a contract.

Then we go where everyone is curious: AI in PR. Ronica shares why AI-generated thought leadership can destroy credibility with journalists, even while AI can still be useful for planning, research, and editorial calendars. We close with the hard truth about PR measurement, why clicks do not tell the whole story, and how earned media compounds into trust, authority, and unexpected opportunities, plus how to make deliberate decisions about political or social stances before pressure hits.

If you found this useful, subscribe, share it with a founder who is chasing PR the hard way, and leave us a review with your biggest question about earned media and brand credibility.

Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!

Stay Connected: 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigtalk.pod/ 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61564547079280
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/big-talk-about-small-business
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@bigtalkpod
https://www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com/

Transcript

Meet Ronica Cleary And Her Path

SPEAKER_01 0:05

So no, we're here with Ronica Cleary. She's got a very interesting background. Um, this is another episode of Big Talk about Small Business Business. And uh Ronica, where are you talking to us from today?

SPEAKER_04 0:19

Outside of Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Okay. Great. Um, so tell us a little bit about yourself. I you've had such a varied career. I know you're now I I don't know what I want to call you. I don't want to just call you a PR consultant. I don't think that's sufficient. But you've done a lot of different things. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into this business.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Well, thank you for that, Mark. And it's nice to meet you both. So I do, I am a founder, but I call myself a publicist as well. Uh because I still run strategy on all of our accounts, and I'm still very involved and engaged. So publicist would be totally accurate. I've been doing that for nearly eight years. And before that, I was a television journalist. I worked most recently as a White House correspondent, and I covered the first Trump administration. I make sure to pause there because sometimes people mishear that I worked for them. I covered them. So I was in the White House press corps, and um, I did that, and I covered politics for the most of the time that I worked in journalism. So that career is what sort of set up the foundation for what I do today in public relations. But before that, I did a lot of other random things. It took me a while to figure out like where I wanted to settle into and media in all of its forms, working as a journalist, now working as a publicist where we put clients in the media. It really feels like home.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

So you're not you're not nervous right now about being on our show. No. I mean, I mean maybe maybe you should be.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

When you start saying hello, you kind of wonder, but I can handle it.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

I mean, we are the biggest business talk show on planet Earth.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Absolutely. It's all it's all happening right here. You should pour you should direct all of your clients to big talk about small business.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

You will be getting many pictures after that.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Fantastic. So, Ronica, now you went to Penn, I saw. Did you grow up there in the area or did you?

SPEAKER_04 2:22

Yeah, so I grew up in South Jersey.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Okay.

Systems Thinking For Running A PR Agency

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Yeah. And the southern part of New Jersey identifies with Philadelphia, where the northern part identifies with the city. So yes, I grew up in the area. I went to Penn undergrad. I went to Drexel for graduate school, which is a like across the street from Penn. Uh, but when I went to Penn, I studied systems engineering. And so I say I still use my systems engineering degree every day to run my PR agency. I run my company and the team like a very efficient and organized assembly line and system, because I know you also have people that's listening that care about running businesses, right? So it's not just about PR. And for me, that really transformed my life as a business owner. People talk about agency life being so stressful and chaotic. And we just we do not embrace that. The stereotype of being a public system being like chaos and stress is not the way we run our accounts. And so I do think systems thinking is a really important foundation for what I do today, though, you know, I'm not working as an engineer.

Why Relationships Are Not A Strategy

SPEAKER_01 3:28

No, I get, I mean, it's uh to me, a lot of it comes down to probability theory and understanding that. And I think a lot of PR people that I've run into or you know, publicists, um, tend to be they they want to sell their relationships and their connections, and that's what they try to sell you on. You know, I've hired them many times, heard a lot of pitches over the years.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

We actually really downplay relationships as a part of our PR strategies. I actually think that's probably the that is this is how I put it. Like a relationships are not a long-term PR strategy, right? Yeah, that I'll stop there.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

No, I mean that's why it's refreshing to hear what you say because you know it takes you can get um you've got to use the laws of probability in your favor. I'll just say that. Um hit enough numbers to make things happen.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Yeah, it is a numbers game. And if you're strategic and smart about it, you will be more successful. So it's not just about, you know, like they call it um spray and pray, like that's the term for when you're just pitching thousands of people. That doesn't mean that that's what we're doing when we say it's a numbers game, but you do have to you do have to pitch a lot of people to get placements and to win. And then if you have a strategy behind it and you understand how media works, you will be very successful and probably bring your clients more results than any sort of relationship-only PR strategy. It doesn't mean I don't have friends in the business, it doesn't mean my team doesn't have friends, it doesn't mean we don't ever call them, but that is not how you maintain an account year over year. I would never know enough people. Like it just it just doesn't work. So uh yeah, we always push back on that when people ask, well, who do you know? Or like how who are you gonna? You know, that's strategy.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

So if it's not spray and prey, then what is it? I mean, like, how are you when you say strategy, right? That's kind of a big word uh that I think that a lot of our listeners would be like, well, I've heard that. But I mean, what what would you advise somebody like to be strategic about the numbers game that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_04 5:38

Right. Well, they could hire Cleary Strategies and let us take care of it.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Um so one of the things that we yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Um is to take care of all your podcasting needs.

Building Pitch Pillars And Fast Response

SPEAKER_04 5:54

So one of the things that we do that I think is different. So we do a period of discovery and onboarding with our clients that is extremely thoughtful and like painstaking, but in a good way. So we sit down with our clients and we build out what we like to think of visually, think of as like pillars on a house. We don't want to begin pitching any client without four to six pillars or content themes fully fleshed out, fully developed with talking points and potential questions for journalists. What this allows us to do is more thoughtfully build out lists of potential journalists across television, radio, digital print, and podcasts for our clients so that when we are pitching them out, we are more effective. And then it also allows us to move much more quickly because, like, there's different outbound public relations, and then it's, I don't know if the right word would be inbound, but the idea of like responding to the news cycle, right? So when we have those content themes already approved, already fleshed out, already agreed upon, we are much more efficient at responding to the news cycle on behalf of our clients because we already know the things that we can that they can talk about. We're not interrupting their work days. Again, this is all about reducing that chaos that I said just doesn't work for us. And so if we know you can talk about, like I don't know when this will air, but with Artemis, right? I was just talking to a potential client that does work in in STEM, right? And she really in the call, she said, Oh, wait, you know, I could have provided commentary on Artemis. Well, all of her, if she was our client, all of our talking points related to STEM would have already been fleshed out, already been defined. And as soon as the news story hit, we would have pitched it, right? So sure it's it's about that foundation that makes everything run a lot more smoothly. It doesn't mean like something can't go chaotic or there can't be a crisis scenario, which we guide our clients through as well, but it just sets a totally different tone on the account to allow things to just operate more efficiently.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

It's and it's all in the preparation, we used to say, my old carpenter.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

It's all in the preparation, and this is the preparation to be able to respond, you know. Um, so one thing um I always try to get people to understand about getting publicity is that the media needs you as much as you think you need them. I mean, they've got to have stuff that's newsworthy. And I think a lot of people forget that. Um isn't that the truth, though? I mean, they they want good stories, they want original data, they want um controversial opinions on things.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

Right. And when I started the agency, you know, I didn't really plan for Cleary Strategies to be a PR agency. You know, I kind of thought we'd be doing more in curve internal communications strategy or even external comms. But what happened was is people knew about my background in TV. And when I first left TV, I would, I was booking myself to do commentary, and people were seeing that, and then say in my network and saying, oh, well, can you do that for me? Can you do that for me? And like the clients sort of directed the the next steps for clear strategies. And the my point is I started this, I very much thought it was about asking for favors from your friends, right, in the business. And so, and so when I, which your point, Mark, when I realized like we are connectors and we're not just doing a service for our clients, we're actually doing a service for the media. And our mission statement, we we say that we serve both media and our client roster. It it just was like a light switch and a shift in thinking that I think made us more successful. Because I'm not asking anyone to do us a favor. I'm actually like making their lives easier. I'm and I do look back on my career in television because, and I think I really should have been a producer because our pitches are, we are producing segments for the the person that we're pitching. We're saying, like, look at this. We have the source, we have the sound, we have the b-roll, we have the questions, we have everything done for you. If this would make your life easier, let us know. And so I I couldn't agree with you more. And that mental shift really made my made me just like feel better. You know, it feels like a used car salesman thing, you know, like I just felt great about the work.

Small Business PR Pricing And Red Flags

SPEAKER_02 10:05

You're helping people. Yeah, well, what you're doing, you're providing value, you're you're you're providing value on value on both ends, right? Which is, I think, uh the secret sauce to to really doing that well. So like if we if we have a small business, if somebody has a small business, like I mean, I think that probably the conventional thought is for a small business owner is there's no way I can afford a PR firm. Like, I mean, it's like I'm I've got to really work my way up. That's that's what happens with big companies. Is that true to you?

SPEAKER_04 10:38

Or can small businesses afford that is defined with a wide range of revenue, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:45

So sure.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

I mean, it depends. I think that you if you get lucky and you find yourself a solopreneur who's out there hustling. I mean, we used to be pretty affordable when I started, you know, you could have hired us like five or six years ago. Um, but I actually think it is a it can be affordable. Work with a lot of small businesses and nonprofits. I do not think you need to necessarily pay New York City retainer rates of$12,000 to$15,000 a month to have a good PR agency or experience. I do think, though, when you're in, let's say, the four to six thousand dollar a month range, you should be careful and thoughtful because in public relations, there are no guarantees, right? Any PR firm that's making guarantees is lying to you, and that is your first red flag. However, when we're not, when we're saying there are no guarantees, then you think, well, how do I know who to hire? Because even if that's in your budget, that's still like a big line item for the year, right? It's still you'd be thoughtful about it. You know, it's not an employee, so that helps. But uh I think small businesses 100% can afford quality public relations. And if you get out of out of the New York City metro area with PR firms that have a storefront to pay for, you can find good quality firms at a lower rate. You just want to do your homework, ask questions, look for case studies, maybe ask for past client you know, contacts to chat with them because you you want to be careful that you're not getting taken advantage of.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

So what would they what would somebody be looking for? I mean, like what what I guess if there's no guarantee that a business is paying six thousand dollars a month, um how do I know that that PR firm, like once the engagement starts, let's say I signed up, how how what are some flags or what uh uh both green and red flags that this firm is gonna be doing a good job or not being to do a good job that day 30 zero through 60, right? Because you know, I mean something's gotta kick off, right?

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Right. Well, I think it's I do believe in asking for the case studies and talking to former clients or current clients. I I think that's the best way to get information. Also, look, I can only speak to running my agency, and since I don't come from agency life, I can't compare to that. But for example, like our YouTube channel, every single podcast or TV appearance we have ever booked is on our YouTube channel. So like you literally see that being updated almost every day. Every client has a playlist. We try to be extremely transparent about our placements, like nothing is behind uh like a wall to say, oh, well, that's our clients. It's you know, I obviously we would never betray a client if they asked us not to, but for the most part, we put that in our contracts because it's very important. So I think it's about being forward about what you've done, right? Do you have clients that are similar? Have you worked with clients that are similar? What's it, what's our expected, you know, outcome? Can we get out of the contract like every 90 days or so? You know, is there a way to exit early if we sign a one-year engagement? Is there a way to leave? Like, I think those are all reasonable things to ask for. Um, and then trust, right? You have to like, know, and trust the person because PR is such a like, I I have personal relationships with my clients, and I you I think you you should take your time to hire your PR firm and ask a lot of questions and look for examples of success before you make the decision. I have noticed people who hire us really quickly tend to abandon ship really quickly. That for us as an agency, that's almost a red flag. Um, where it can be like, you know, a little frustrating when people take a long time. But then I know they're being extremely thoughtful, they're asking the questions they need to, and we're building a partnership versus just like, let's try this flavor of the month to grow our business overnight. Oh, it didn't work in two months. Like we're, you know, I I just find that to be a concern on my end. It doesn't exactly answer your question, but I think it does speak to the conversations that need to be had before you engage in this partnership because it it is a bit it is a big investment, but I do think you can confidently go into an engagement and and have a lot of information to feel like you know what you're what you're diving into.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

I I come out of the architecture and engineering world and been on a lot of boards of companies and some of the larger ones, and and um I'll never forget this case where I had a client that was a pretty well-known firm and a particular uh specialty, and they had this PR person. They kept telling me she's great, she's great, she's great. She was British. They had an office in London, based in the US, though. And she came to a board meeting one time, and I figured out what she was doing because when she meets me, she she got a little too close, okay? She took my tie in her hands, both hands, and said, Oh, that is a wonderful tie. And that's uh she said, Where did you get that? On Saville Row? And I kid you not, okay? And I said, No, I think it came from like Joseph Bank or something, you know. But uh, but anyway, it was clear to me the way she was selling was simply stroking. Yeah, she she she she was simply stroking the egos of these guys, and you know, she was an attractive 50-year-old woman, and she had, and they were 60 to 65-year-old dudes, and they brought and she brought her 25-year-old clone version of herself along with her, impeccably dressed, you know, super fit, very articulate. But anyway, it just really to me that was sort of the epitome of what that certain type of seller of PR services that I've seen, you know, on one, maybe that's one end of the continuum, and you're on the other end. You're like, no BS, you know, you're very, very straight up. But uh, but anyway.

SPEAKER_04 16:50

But Mark, like think about that. Those guys maybe weren't doing the due diligence because she was making them feel so good.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

You know, they probably think investment.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

They were like, this, because I I do think some of public relations is about ego, right? And that's okay, but like I don't want people to just hire us for an in like an exercise and feeling good. But I do make my I do pump up my clients. I want them to feel great. I don't want them to go out on air and feel terrible, but that's very funny. That's a funny story. No, I mean, we don't that that's I I do like to think of dress impeccably well.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

I mean, like some of the things you said, but uh not 50. Let's like, you know, we're not there yet.

How Cleary Strategies Builds The Team

SPEAKER_01 17:33

So I I I don't get most of my ties at Joe Bank either, okay? I mean, I will admit, although we just went to MoMA last week and I didn't see anything I like there, and that was used to be a great place to get ties. Museum of Modern Art. That's it. But anyway, all right, so enough of that. Um, so tell us um more about your business, though. You've built a successful business over there. What what's been the key to that? Forget the the services and how you're unique for a minute. How have you organized that thing? How have you retained, attracted, and retained good people?

AI In PR And No AI Thought Leadership

SPEAKER_04 18:11

So I I am very careful about where I spend money and I run a team of contractors. So we can expand and contract very easily. So that I think for us with public relations the way it is, you know, we are often the first service to get cut, right? When you think about what people need uh when they're running businesses because we're B2B, obviously. Um that has allowed me to keep most of my team working. Like we just maybe adjust what we're what certain, like because if they're being paid by the service or the outcome, they're always working for the clients that we have, but I'm not getting caught in really expensive, you know, salaries or even retainers for most of them. And so that allows me to run this business extremely efficiently. And we were virtual before it was cool, right? We opened in 2018 before COVID. And I also think that, you know, I guess, like I said, being flexible, hiring the way that we do for our agency. And then I hire a lot of working parents, right? So for what it's worth, the way the work that I can offer people who work for me, it's not a good fit for everybody. So I am very careful in finding people who would want to work in an environment like mine for a long period of time. And that greatly reduces turnover, even though I mean, do you call it turnover if they're contractors? I don't know. But these the people on my team have been with me, the majority of them, for a very long time. Because if you're a working parent, a lot of them come from television journalism. So they're still connected to the industry that they love. They can pick up their kids, they can have some flexibility, they don't mind that it's not always the same intensity. It creates an environment that works for the people who work for me. And I think that's a key too. I'm not trying to scoop up big-time PR agency people that will be unhappy and think like, oh, well, just work for us through the summer until you get work. Like, I'm really looking for people who would thrive in the environment that I can give them. So for us, I think that's allowed a lot of consistency on the the my end of things because if the clients are, you know, there's always new clients and there's a lot of change in that sense. There's tons of change in the media. Like we didn't even really pick when I would put someone on a podcast in 2018, 2019, it was this like novel idea, right? The industry has transformed in that sense on what we're working with. At least I have really consistent players on this end who are very happy with the environment that we've set up for them.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

So, Ronak, I got I got a big question for you. What uh how how are you seeing AI affecting everything that you your industry is doing?

SPEAKER_04 20:55

So, you know, that's funny. So I actually just wrote a piece. So I I'm I write for Inc. Inc. magazine online, and I just wrote a piece on one area where AI is not welcome, and that's in thought leadership. So when we see journalists' queries or reporters looking for sources or quotes, it constantly no AI answers. AI answers will be deleted. It will destroy our relationships with them if our clients use AI. So for us, we're sort of in this weird space where in that one particular issue, like AI is the worst thing you could possibly use. We do, however, like use AI when we're planning out and mapping our editorial calendar and pitching themes for our clients every month, right? Like there, there are plenty of ways we've used AI to be more efficient on the services that we deliver and maybe researching potential reporters or outlets, but we cannot. We can, and my clients cannot use AI for thought leadership, or the the damage would be irreparable, not just for them, but also for us, because we go out on the line, right, basically. For every person we take on our roster, you know, we're putting our name next to them when we contact the media. Because ideally they'll say, oh, it's a pitch from Cleary Strategies. We can trust them. They have vetted them. I don't need to see their TV clips. I don't need to see their past work. We know Ronica and her team have done that. So we I have not a love-hate relationship, but there are definitely parts of my work where AI is extremely frowned upon and like cannot be used. Um but that doesn't mean I don't have a subscription to you know Claude and ChatGPT that we use. It just is for for strategy, planning, research, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

I want to hang out in this current just a little bit because I absolutely love what you said.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Well, because he owns a company called Ad Fury AI as well. But anyway, go on, Eric. Okay, so that uh it's not that I'm biased, Marcus. No, you spend a lot of time studying this. He spends out he really does. He devotes a certain amount of his time every day to studying AI. I mean, it's it's a real passion for you.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah, and well, it's a it's a it's a business I'm heavily invested in. So it's not just a passion, Mark. It's a very risky venture. I get it. Which is what we're all talking about.

SPEAKER_04 23:10

But anyway, I don't want to spend all your venture need crisis management or planning.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Oh, yeah. Totally. It's all about crisis management.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

100% live on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

This is crisis management. This just having this podcast, right? That's hilarious. But what I love about what you said, because uh I'd like to demystify a little bit about the fear factor that I think a lot of people have about AI replacing my job, my people, my business, what do I do? It gets really confusing there when you start really thinking about the humanoids coming to take over all work, right? So you got that part, but then you also have this overuse and expectation that you can automate your face off and don't have to work anymore and sit back and collect checks. So there's these two worlds that I see people that are not ingrained into AI and business like what we're we are today. Um, and so that can cause just a lot of just kind of crappy business ventures and and this perspective that you can either do very little and do very well, or you should not start a business because the end's coming soon.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah, like no, you know, there's a continuum there, and it's the reality's in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

The reality is in the middle, and it's what and it's exactly what Veronica's saying. So the human voice is still what humans want to hear. They've been wanting to hear it since the dawn of time, and we're gonna want to hear it until we die.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yeah, right? But can I say say something about that related to AI? Yeah. So I've written so much stuff, Ronica. You would not believe it, okay? I've been I've had a newsletter I published now for 38 years, basically. Longer than I've been alive, Veronica. No, it's not. Unbelievable. So every and it comes out every week, okay? I can use AI to go into my own writing and mine, my writing specifically, and say, only use my stuff as a source.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

To pull thoughts together. No, I'm not gonna take that and then go there it is on LinkedIn. I mean, but it does get me thinking about things that I wouldn't think of or wouldn't necessarily remember, but it's my stuff. I mean, you know, of course. Anyway, it's a great tool, it's a great research tool, too. I mean, let's face it.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

I mean if you know how to query it, I mean I mean, it takes care of a lot of that that's amazing, that that repetitive production-related work, but allows you to what Ronica just said, which I want the audience to hear. They need to hear it clearly. Yes, thought leadership. Even though you have the brilliant bring this in, you're still thinking as a human and providing your thought leadership from your experience in life. No, you're right, to help guide other people, readers, viewers, whatever it might be, to the right direction as a human with experiences. That's the power of it. And I and I really hope that, and if you're so if you're trying to start a business, yes, you can use AI to the end of your life, but you have to think. Yeah, you have to take your experiences and navigate the world and business. But I just really appreciate your your response to that because that I mean that's perfect. And by the way, that's what the media to what Ronica was saying, that's what the media wants and expects because its readers are humans, right? And so don't be bringing me your AI sloppy freaking quote, yeah, thinking that you're some sort of scientist.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah, no kidding, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

Absolutely, and we didn't even talk ahead of time and agree that I would say that. Can you believe that?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

That's just so organic and natural.

PR ROI Without A Straight Line

SPEAKER_01 27:03

That's the way we do our shows. We don't want to talk to people ahead of time. I'm serious, it's a lot more fun to discover things about the person live. Yeah, so I want to ask you about a take a little slightly different direction now.

SPEAKER_05 27:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Um, since Eric's monopolized the no, Eric always does that. He does that to me, so I'm just doing it back to him.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

It does not bother you because you seem to like each other.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

No, my my uh one of my pet peeves though about marketing in general, and I know you're you know, you're you come out of a data science background, everybody wants to be making data-driven decisions. And you know, my alma mater used to be the College of Business and Administration, now it's the College of Business and Analytics. Okay, yeah, everybody wants to talk about the data-driven decisions, but oh some of marketing, in my opinion, at least, has not a damn thing to do with the data. Because, you know, when I look at businesses, now, you know, you work for Inc. magazine. Inc. magazine's fastest product.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

But I don't want to, I don't want to be misleading. I I contribute to their yeah, but we don't get it.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

Okay, contribute to what I do, but yes, I I write thought leadership for them.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Right. You you know, you know what Inc. is, and you know what the audience of Inc. is, right? It's privately held business owners, entrepreneurs. And you know, um I I've got plenty of experience. I've been to the conferences at my company, one of them was on the list four times. So I get that.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

We're an ink power partner. So I'm sorry? We're an ink power partner. That's how we got that.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

I saw that, right?

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Yeah, so we have that in common.

unknown 28:48

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

But anyway, when I when I think about like some of the most rapidly growing companies that were on that list where I got familiar with the owners, and forget the industry, okay? It could be anything. A lot of them simply devoted more money to marketing than their peers, and they they poured it into things where you don't necessarily know what the return is. Everybody is fixated on on you know um online return on that spin. Yeah, because it's completely traceable. You know, you know, exactly I got so many views and so many clicks and so many whatevers, okay? But the reality of it is, in my experience at least, that a lot of the most successful companies said, you know what, we are gonna just go out there with like this unbelievable program and hammer using all kinds of media and publicity, okay, because it is better than paid. It's real. We we know that, but and and they don't necessarily get re Oh my god, I only got 2,042 clicks to this one, and we got 2,072 clicks to this one, so we're never gonna do this again, okay? It's bullshit, okay. And the MBAs of the world, which I have one, and I work for a college of business. That's an excellent program, I might add. Um, they they they want to take everything down to the numbers. Yeah, you you just can't do it with marketing. I at least that's what I think. Is there a question? What are your thoughts? What are you? Yeah, what are your thoughts? I have thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

I have I do have thoughts, and I appreciate what you're saying because the worst part of my sales pitch, but what helps me get the best fitting clients, is that there is no straight line between RPR placements and your sales. It just doesn't exist. And I I I really tried to be transparent about that because I want people, again, when you're making this investment to know what you're investing in, which is long-term credibility, you know, overall increased presence, like in the space, trustworthiness. These are all things that are really hard to quantify, but that absolutely matter and are essential for your growth. Um, but anybody that I mean, I've had clients where we sit down and they want to look at the clicks on the website during the placements and we have the conversations, but they're not the right clients. And that doesn't mean that, I mean, obviously, I think PR is a great investment. I think you, I think it makes sense. I'm here because I do PR for clear strategies, right? Obviously, I think it's worth it. But if you if you don't really believe in that long-term vision of the investment over time, changing the way you you and your business are perceived and viewed and trusted because it's not paid placements, making it much harder to track the results, then it's probably not a good thing for you to spend money on. But I I I always kind of laugh when I have to kind of have that conversation if someone brings it up, because I think this is probably against like every rule in a sales book. But if I don't have this conversation, it's the whole, it's not a good foundation for the relationship.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

So, Veronica, on that, take us through a use, a use study, not a case study, right? But a a fictional but yet realistic story that if I'm a new client, I'm like, hey, I really want to see data and have it line up to sales, my six thousand dollar investment to you as a publicist. And you and your response is you need to be thinking long term. Well, then then give me a deeper story about what does it look like? Like what's the six, like what's my experience gonna be as your client to feel, see the results of your work as a publicist? Like, what's the counter to it? So it's don't be looking at the website clicks because that's not gonna line up. Don't try to measure ROI on all your data because that doesn't, but this will happen, Eric. Like if we have a successful partnership together, yeah, you will experience this, not this, but this. What does that look like?

SPEAKER_04 32:59

So I think it would be improved and more reputable placements, right? Maybe bigger reach and a bigger, like a more expansive national placements, national op-eds, right? Those are things that we're looking for and going for. I also think understanding that the placements should be part of a bigger puzzle and strategy, right? So for example, Mark, you write a newsletter. I don't know what the purpose of the newsletter is, but a lot of people write newsletters to get like customers or to re-engage with customers or past customers, whatever it might be. Well, ideally, you're going to take the content from our placements and put it into your newsletter to make it a more robust newsletter to increase that trust and credibility to maybe close more clients. So maybe you can draw a line that a longer line with more stop points in the middle, but say, you know what, my newsletter has more clicks, my newsletter has more engagement, there's more responses on my LinkedIn pages when I'm sharing my placements and my wins. So every client is different. I do think the idea of like if you want to write up bets, maybe we're gonna hit and reach a better publication or better outlet. Maybe you're gonna be asked for repeat appearances on an outlet, right? They're gonna have again and again, right? So it it's it's hard to say exactly what it would be, but we would take in mind like what is the client's goal. Some people don't, some people say, well, we are a national nonprofit. We would like placements every year in every state that we do work in. Or we do do, I'll give you a real case study. We've been working, we're the agency of record for the seeing eye. They're the longest serving guide dog organization. They train guide dogs for people who are blind, or and and so that a that organization has now seen a tremendous increase in the number of people who volunteer to be puppy raisers to then become guide dogs, right? A sick like that where they can actually point to the increase of volunteers since we started working with them. So that's like a great example where they can point to results. And for them, it's not necessarily, I mean, we've gotten the national placements, but they're not worried about a national win, right? We have that goal in mind for them. So we're like, how can we get you wins related to the importance of volunteering as a puppy raiser, right? So they're all different, but I do think there are goals we can set for each client that could help them feel that when they look back, they have a lot to point to that's successful and worth the investment. The other thing we do, look, I do want to say this. I understand that people need some sort of results or numbers to make sense of this investment, right? Like I'm not a fool. And so we do invest in uh technology that basically provides reporting every month to our clients that gives them estimates on the reach and the monetary value of the placement based on competing advertising cars costs in the market and for the network and Nielsen ratings for the TV programs or web views, right? So we give our clients numbers and results that they can present to their boards or their investors or potential investors, whatever it is, to say, okay, we can estimate that we've reached as many people or the monetary value of this investment was would have been would have cost us this if we paid for advertising in the same market at the same time. So, like it's not that there's no data. I just don't like to put all the stock in the data and say that's the most important thing because you guys host a podcast. You know that your listeners are loyal, committed listeners who, for the most part, probably come back week after week because they like you too, they trust the guests that you choose, and they know they're gonna get great content. I would argue there's greater value in being on a podcast with a small, not that you're not that your audience is small, but like a small loyal audience compared to a national TV program that is on the airport that's on mute, that nobody knows what they're talking about. So that's where the that's why I do not put all the stock in the numbers. We still give people numbers. Like, I mean, we got to give them something, yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

But but can I jump in on this for a minute? I mean, like I think that they're the the to go back to what you were saying, like what's the best outcome that could come out from that? I could have somebody reach out to me who is gonna be my business partner, I could have a potential investor or connection from somebody that that you know, whatever we put out there really was meant something to them that they introduce us to somebody who changes the entire trajectory of our business and buys our business or whatever. So there's a lot of different ways it can go. To me, it's it it just kind of like you know, do you want to be selling Toyotas or do you want to be selling Chevies? Which one's easier? Okay, Toyotas are, all right? I was gonna say our person, I think the answer is Toyota, I don't know. Right. It's they're easier to sell. You know, people know, well, they're reliable, they hold their resale value. So it's all these other things, you know, that that if if you've got the the the right PR, it's just one piece of the story that helps you build the brand that you're trying to create that reduces the risk of buying your product or service.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Yeah, so I have a I mean I'll I'll give a testimony since Veronica is helping podcast videos out so much with our value. I believe she is. I mean, you are, and I'll go that in a second from what you said because you brought another oh dude, it's beautiful. But so I'll attest to publicist or publicist PR Earn Media as a whole, White Spider, right? Our company. Yeah. Folks ask me a lot of times, like, how did it how did you do it? How did it get through? You know, all this kind of stuff. There was it was heavily relied upon publicity and this this earn media ecosystem. We were the first out the gate to raise a flag about the significance of digital commerce in omnichannel retail, right? No one in the community freaking understood even what we were talking about, right? But we were really I still don't understand. I know you don't. Well, you don't have to, but but we needed the clients to understand. We needed the market to understand.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

You solved the problem and you built a great business.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

100%, but that took a lot of earn media, like we had to talk and educate and inspire just a whole market.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

You created the the business of what you guys did. It's basically a 100%.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

But I could see the value in that, and it wasn't a measure of clicks and all this stuff, but what started to happen was an inertia. Yeah. An inertia and an emotion, not just my emotion, but a communal emotion, industry emotion, of where, man, like to Ronica's point, I was getting calls from the New York Times, I was getting calls from these different trade pubs, you know, all the and and and and when those things started, they started compounding. Yes. And and the next thing I knew is that our entire brand, anytime we were anywhere, our brand showed up, we were speaking at an event, whatever it might be, or you'd see our white spider bus driving by, people knew who we were, what we represented, our authority, our credibility. It was like you could totally sense it. Like it was there was no mistaking. There was no like how much you know, how much credibility did I get today out of that effort? And it was never thought about that.

Being Memorable Without Creating A Crisis

SPEAKER_01 40:28

And so But you're an entrepreneur, you understand that. See, that's the problem, I think. A lot of businesses are run by people who are not entrepreneurs. Oh my gosh, you just brought up another massive topic that I'm wigging out on lately. They're freaking engineers or they're freaking MBAs that worked in corporate America.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

I just wigged it, I just wigged out on a podcast, Ronica. You might like this too. I wigged out, and I actually have to go back and edit it before it gets released because I kind of wigged out almost too much.

SPEAKER_05 40:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

But I was like, there is a difference between a founder and an entrepreneur. Yep. You don't have to be one or the other as to be a good successful entrepreneur. But if you but you can easily update LinkedIn and say I'm a founder today.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

And you don't have to be an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Right. And they a lot of times, I would say the majority of them are not. That's why 95% of businesses fail, because a lot of the founders are not entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

They don't get this idea of what real time is out here.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Shameless promoting campaigning and publicity, right? Like till you die. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:33

That idea should never stop. It should never stop.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Never stop promoting.

SPEAKER_04 41:38

And wait, you know, you talked about how like then you're getting calls and things like that. You know, if you had a PR firm, it's funny. It's not with every client, many clients they get it, but we we take credit for that, right? Just because they called, they called you because of all the stuff we did to get you the point. Sure, you should take credit for that. So it's all um, it's very like fluid and expansive, and it's great to hear you get it. And you know, not everybody gets it. You know, I never heard that distinction between a founder and an entrepreneur. That's interesting. That's the first time I've heard that. Um, but it's not, it's not an investment for everybody, but I still think it is obviously I really believe in it, and we look for clients and people to partner with who get it because that's when we can have the most success and the longest-term engagements because they are not looking for a quick fix or an overnight success. They're looking, they understand long-term credibility marketing, if you will, um, and how you get that in no other way than earned media.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

So, Ronica, I'd only counter with one statement is I do believe it's an investment for everyone. However, I know you didn't mean it like this, but just to clarify the audience.

SPEAKER_04 43:05

Right. Because I don't want to argue with a client to justify what we're doing, though that doesn't really happen. But you that's what I meant when I said it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

I know, and what I'm trying to articulate is it their monetary investment in a firm like yours, that cost may be too much for them. But they themselves, as an entrepreneur, absolutely must invest in their own relentless publicity for themselves until they can get to a paid investment with pros like yourself that can take them and multiply, right? Because I see right now as an experienced entrepreneur like you do, the absolute critical intrinsic value of having Ronica on my team. Yeah. Helping me reach out, helping me craft those strategic messages in the beginning. What can I talk about? Well, you are crazy, Eric, but let me sit down with you for And get six bullet points of the stuff that you really are a thought leader in that you're not going to be calming me down. Don't calm me down.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

No, I'm not calming you down. She would love somebody like you, my guess is. I'm not trying to put words in Ronica's mouth, because you can be controversial. You do have a unique perspective.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

Oh, yeah, I love that. I want you to say the craziest thing ever. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

What do you do though, Ronica, when you get these people and they just come out and they're like, well, we're gonna pivot and at the end of the day, and then we're gonna do find our synergy. And they just speak in cliches.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

My favorite cliche yesterday was my thesis is, my thesis is.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Now the other one, everybody's got agency now. That's the new word.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

My agency thesis is at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

You have agency. You have agency. These words, it's just like they so you must run into those too, where they basically don't have anything unique to say.

SPEAKER_05 44:58

Well, how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Um we're easy over here, okay? But how do you deal with them?

SPEAKER_04 45:06

I think the most important place for people to be relatively controversial would be in op-ed writing. So if I know a person is really uncomfortable in the space of taking a side or being incendiary, I discourage the I discourage that, right? Because I do think you can provide pretty moderate commentary on certain topics. Like we can find a place for you, you know, depending on what it is. Uh, but it makes our job a lot more fun and we can do a lot more with it if you're comfortable. You know, we we used to have this expression in one of my old TV stations, we would say we want to be the skunk at the picnic. And so, like, if you're comfortable, like being it's a good one, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:52

And so it's I want to be a skunk at a pick, you always will be.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

That's like that great. Yeah, that could be really great, but you need to do that deliberately, right? You don't you you need to be very media savvy, or you can get yourself in a lot of trouble. And that's where working with like an experienced team, and a lot of my team comes from TV, like we really get it, and we can provide you a little guidance and make sure we're not putting you in a situation that will be problematic. Like, we don't want to create unnecessary crisis. And we also, when we know a client will not thrive in an environment like that, we will just deliberately like not present or pitch certain opportunities or outlets or placements because we know it will not go well. So that that's one of the many distinctions from us between like us and maybe a booking agency. You could hire a booking agency, just book placements for you, but we have to be very strategic and thoughtful based on what kind of personality are you bringing to the table and where can you be successful without ending up in like creating a problem for yourself?

Taking A Public Stance With A Plan

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Love it. I I got a question for you that I really want to get out before we run out of time.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Well, and I have a question too. Okay. So hurry up.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Okay. Um look, especially with your background coming out of being a White House correspondent, my personal stand as it relates to um this stuff, whether it's social media, general, whatever, is I take no political stand. Okay. Now, some people could say that's chicken shit or I'm weak or whatever. I don't want to alienate half of my audience for anything I do. Okay? And that is a problem, I think, with a lot of small business owners that I've seen is they're like they they live in an echo chamber, they only associate with people like themselves and have the same opinions as themselves and religious, political, social topics, whatever beliefs. And then they they they go out there on that on that platform and and they find themselves basically walking a plank and losing half of their market because they they're so certain of the rightness of their position. What do you think about that? How do you advise your clients to deal with contentious social topics or political stuff?

SPEAKER_04 48:14

So I I have pretty hard and fast rule. You should decide how you feel, how you will like what if you are going to take a side and what side you will take, you should make those decisions before anything is going on, right? So you should make a decision. Like my our agency is not political. We are, you know, we we we do not comment on political events. I spent enough time covering politics, we are not in it. And so there haven't, so I made that decision when they were not, I mean, think about going through COVID years and how much pressure there was on businesses to, you know, make comment on so many issues that occurred. And when we went through those years, it didn't. Um, and there was a lot of pressure too, but because I knew I had made that decision before all of that came to light, it I I kind of said, well, this was my decision, this was my decision. And reminding yourself that like these moments in time when it feels like everyone's commenting, they do pass, right? So you can get through them without commenting, but there is risk. So I can point to one client in particular that I'm certain that we lost because we did not comment on social media about a huge and controversial headline. And I knew that was going to happen. And even though I made that decision, I sort of felt the pressure. But I said, look, in the long run, I do not want to start this because this is who we decided we were not going to be when the pressure wasn't there. So when the pressure is there, stay true to that. So that is the same advice I give to my clients. It's not necessarily, Mark, I don't necessarily tell them all, don't take a stance. The idea is does the stance align with your business? Like, does it make sense for you to have a stance related to it, related to your business? And make that decision when you are not under pressure so that you can navigate it very thoughtfully when you are under pressure, right? So that's more the guidance when we do crisis man management and crisis planning. That's the direction we come from with the guidance. Cause all jokes aside, you know, we're saying how fun is Eric, right? He's like, you know, crazy or whatever. He's not crazy, but like he's got a personality that he's happy to engage, like happy to bring to the table. It's not controversial, but that can be being a little incendiary, being a little unconventional can be great for the media, but it has to be deliberate and decisive and purposeful. It cannot just be like, oh, I'm on a whim, everyone's doing this today, everyone's posting this message on social media. So I have to like, it cannot be like that. That's where you get lost and it's a terrible strategic decision.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

It's good advice.

unknown 50:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

I mean, and your stance could be not take a stance. Yeah, you see what I'm saying? Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

I mean, but I but I mean, like, I don't mind being incendiary when it comes to like conventional management practices that you know I have no problem with that. But like politics, it just seems to me like we don't know who all we're gonna interact with. As I mean, as clients or investors or employees. I share the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

I share the same I don't have such a but I don't think that our conviction is is on that side of stuff is driving us so incredibly hard to the conviction of those social things are not as high as our conviction about running a business and employing folks and doing having a purposeful life existence through business.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yes, no, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

That's that to me.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

That's what drives us.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

So if my purpose in business is at this height, yeah, and I do have opinions about things, me too. I keep in my damn self and I freaking zone out and zen out and get peace with it, right? Move on with it, you know. Yeah, I get this purpose of business where I'm providing opportunities for fellow mankind to grow and experience wealth and better lives, that my contribution solved problems, that's what I'm about, baby. You know, so anyway, uh I got one last question before we before we wrap it up. So it's not really a question, Ronica. I want to see if you will agree with my statement here because this is yeah, no, this is big.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

This is the judge. No, what the judge is. I will agree. I accept her as a judge.

A Million Outlets And The New Media

SPEAKER_02 52:11

It does come down to this. So podcastvideos.com, when I explain video and audio conversational communication, right? Which we have the power and technology to do. Here's how I best have encapsulated the ultimate vision that we have.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

Historically, we had a hundred media outlets with a million listeners apiece. Now and going in the future, we'll have a million outlets with a hundred listeners apiece. That is the revolution of media in today's time. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 52:49

Yes. Yes. And that's what keeps us, that's what we'll use to keep ourselves in business and showing that there's value, even though media is transforming dramatically. You still need to be in the place. People are still cons media is not dead. News is not dead. We are just consuming it differently, one 100%.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Fantastic. She already alluded to this what uh earlier.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

I wanted her to like rubber stamp my statement, bro.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

But see, this is this is what she's saying that she's trying to do with her business that's different is they look at those million outlets and get the people into the right ones. That's a big that's a that's not as it's not as easy in a way as the old days. Like you're in the Wall Street Journal and you're done.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Yeah, PR Newswire, you got 25 outlets, just hit them.

SPEAKER_04 53:40

Yeah, exactly. It's that's the way it's done dramatically.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Yeah, yeah. That takes a lot of research to get the right media outlets for people um to get through to their audience. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

So Bronca, this has been a great episode. We really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Thank you. Absolutely. We need to have her back on sometime. I think it'd be great. I think it'd be good. I like that.

SPEAKER_04 54:05

In studio next time.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, any come when next time you're down, come see us. Have you ever been to Northwest Arkansas?

SPEAKER_01 54:12

I have not.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

It's kind of like a paradise. I mean, it's like a hidden gem that we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

No, you wouldn't believe it. People don't anybody who comes here says, I had no idea this place was so great.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

I mean And that's 30 years after they stayed here.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Yeah, it's it's amazing. We got over 600,000 people now. It's a super high growth area. Bentonville is like Truman Show of it's almost unreal. Um you can buy a condo in Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

You can buy a condo in downtown Bentonville now of two million bucks for a thousand square foot condo. I mean, it's gone insane here.

SPEAKER_04 54:47

That is. Well, you all let me put her in Philly and we'll take you around.

Where To Find Ronica And Closing

SPEAKER_01 54:53

I love Philadelphia. I I whenever I go, I stay at the Rittenhouse, uh at the Rittenhouse Square area. It's a nice area, you can walk around. Yeah. It's an interesting city. It was when I was young, I I lived in Boston for 17 years. I moved there from DFW, not from there originally. But my goal was either live in Boston or Philadelphia. They're both very historic and walkable and interesting places to be. Yeah, a lot of history there. Yep. So anyway, great to have you. If anybody wants to find you and reach out to you, Ronica, what is the best way?

SPEAKER_04 55:29

They can contact us on Cleary Strategies.com. You can find me on all social media platforms at Ronica Cleary, and there's Cleary Strategies accounts on all of them too. We try to be very accessible. And you can also call the phone number on our website. I will answer the phone.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

So love that. That's the best thing in the world right there. And when you say cleary, it's C-L-E-A-R-Y. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 55:52

That's right. It autocorrects to clearly. So don't let it do that. It's Cleary Strategies and it's Ronica like Monica with an R.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Got it. Well, thanks so much for being with us today, Ronica. It's been great.

SPEAKER_04 56:05

It really has. Thank you, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

This has been a fantastic episode of Big Talk About Small Business.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk About Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com, and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business. And be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes, and ask questions about upcoming shows.