Big Talk About Small Business

Owner Dependency: The Exit Killer with Renee Russo

• Big Talk About Small Business • Season 1 • Episode 141

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Selling a business shouldn't cost you your identity. With shifting markets pushing more founders to step away, preparing for the sale is just as critical as preparing for the day after the money clears. Business coach and exit planning expert Renee Russo joins the show to unpack the operational and psychological hurdles of preparing a firm for an acquisition.

We get into the mechanics of making a business portable, the danger of owner dependency in the sales function, and the structural limitations of the seller-doer method. We sit down to explore why only 30% of companies that go to market actually close, and how to spot the readiness illusion before it ruins a deal. Renee shares her realization that the real value of exit planning isn't securing a payout, but preserving your ability to live life by design after the transaction is complete.

Walking away from a company you built from the ground up often triggers a severe transition gap. Founders frequently face isolation, regret, and a total loss of purpose when they lose their wartime CEO status. You will walk away from this conversation with a clear framework for establishing a personal life plan, identifying your actual wealth gap, and learning how to step out of the daily grind without falling apart.

If you care about building a transferable business, navigating post-exit identity, and the practical application of execution systems like EOS, you’ll get a lot from this. Please take a second to subscribe and share this episode with a fellow business owner who needs to hear it. What is the primary operational dependency you need to break before you can step away from your firm?

Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!

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A Street Corner Wake-Up Call

SPEAKER_06

And as they brought him back to life, they set him up against a concrete wall. And on the front of his shirt was a Vince Lombardi quote. It said, It's not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get back up. That was my wake-up call to go on my own personal transformation journey. And what I realized is that I didn't suck. I was just stuck in the gap, and I didn't know how to get out.

Meet An Exit Planner Who’s Lived It

SPEAKER_02

Hey everybody, we are back today with another episode of Big Talk About Small Business. And I have Renee Russo, not the actress Renee Russo, but the Renee Russo, who is a business coach and expert in preparing firms for sale, among other things. So how's it going, Renee?

SPEAKER_06

Really good. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02

I'm excited to have you here. So tell us, Ready, a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_06

I'm a former business owner of a small business in the business technology space. My husband and I ran that business, and we experienced all of the gifts of the entrepreneurial journey. We had some uh business conflict issues we navigated. My husband uh had a cancer journey, we raised a young family, all these things while trying to keep the business alive. And at some point, I reached a breaking point and said, we have to figure out a better way. Uh so fortunately, I had an accounting degree and I had a fascination with how business worked. And I learned about operating systems methodologies, turned our business around, and launched my coaching practice. And then some of my clients started to sell their company. And actually, many of them started to sell. And those that did close successfully thanked me for all of my hard work to help make that happen. And I wasn't connecting the dots between my work in the business optimization space and the uh exit journey until I had my own exit. And so I went through a double exit of marriage and business, learned a lot, uh, and then became an exit planner so that I could help other business owners exit their business successfully and move into the next chapter with confidence. That's what I do now.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. Yeah, I've been through a double exit on marriages and businesses. So I can I've got, I guess I've got a multiplier. A double double exit.

SPEAKER_05

Well my goodness, teaches you a lot.

SPEAKER_02

It is a learning experience, no question about it. So now, how long have you been doing your thing here with the helping these other business owners?

SPEAKER_06

Well, when I say to the world that, you know, I've been in the business advisory space for 20 plus years, people look at me and they're like, What? I started my career. Yeah, I started my career at KPMG as a junior accountant. And I worked there for a couple of years, then worked in uh talent solutions before I launched into my own business journey. So 20 years ago, I came to Canada and started this entrepreneurial journey with my husband. And I launched my practice, my coaching practice as it is now, or an early version of it, uh, just over 10 years ago. So there've been a few iterations. It's been a while, but every day I feel like I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_02

That's awesome. So tell us about some of the cases that you've been involved with and good and bad.

Breaking Owner Dependency To Grow

SPEAKER_02

Tell us a few stories and give our listeners some lessons to learn from all this.

SPEAKER_06

You know, there is a case study that I talk about a lot. And interestingly, I'm still working with the client for uh almost 10 years. So this business owner, uh, when I came into the organization as the business coach, I implement operating systems frameworks like EOS and business best practices. We realized that we had an owner um dependency problem. He was in all of the key seats that held the business up. And so we systematically worked towards building a team, building a vision, and that allowed the business to unlock growth from 13 million to 30 million. Then the business started to hit a little bit of a ceiling. So we upgraded the leadership team again, continuing to decentralize the business owner. And then he turned to me and said, Renee, I want to sell my company. And that was when I first realized that I didn't have a game plan for that. So that's when I got certified and became a certified exit planning advisor with the Exit Planning Institute. Uh, and we built a strategy, and I introduced him to MA. And at that point, everyone thought that my work was over. So I was kind of pushed to the sides and they went through the due diligence process, and unfortunately, the business did not close.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_06

The reality is, and what a lot of people in MA space don't say is that only 30% of companies that go to market truly close.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_06

70% don't. And it's actually fairly normal.

unknown

Sure.

SPEAKER_06

And most businesses fail because of two things. The business is not ready to be transferred to new ownership, it's not portable.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_06

Andor the business owner is not ready to transition to what's next.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_06

And that was what happened with this business owner. He was too uh tied to the day-to-day. He wasn't ready for what was next. And the business was not able to be transferred successfully because of that dependency, particularly in the sales function. After that failure, a client came back and said, Look, I think we have more work to do. And I was, I confirmed we did. So we reset the leadership team and reinforce the sales function. And now we're on the path to 50 million with a part plan to go back to the market in three years, being able to confidently demonstrate the business is both attractive and transferable, and the business owner is ready for what's next. So it's hard to have to learn the hard way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's a good story. And it's not unusual. I mean, as you said, so many businesses suffer from single person management. That's always the the start of the problem where the owner's involved in every single thing. And so certainly that is a that's a common problem. And then and then you mentioned sales. I mean, that's that's yet another one. I mean, personally, I always try to create businesses that don't depend on salespeople. I'm all about marketing and the phone ringing and having people who write orders versus sales and trying to do it all through relationships with high-powered salespeople. The problem I've found there is that really good salespeople make a whole lot of money. A, they're very difficult to find, and and B, you're dependent on them then. When they leave, too much of the business is portable.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. And what we notice is that a lot of business owners, that is the function that they let go of last.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_06

Because that's really like the keys to the bank. And so they tend to let go of it last. And a lot of the relationships in the market are reliant on them. You know, depending on what industry we're in, my work spans everything from architecture to manufacturing to plumbing and HVAC, like mental clinics, like anything, really. The wiring of a well-run business is the same, irrespective of the industry. The nuance is very much born out of two things: industry segment and the exit strategy. So when we're combining where we're actually taking this business with what the owner's plan is alongside the market that they're in, uh, we can be a lot more strategic. What I've noticed is a lot of my clients that have a technical specialty are moving towards the doer-seller method, which is born out of the Architecture, Engineering and Construction Association. There's a book about it, even. I would say actually, I'll flip that around, seller-doer method. And so the doers?

SPEAKER_02

Not to interrupt you there, Renee, but you know, that's the industry I spent my entire career in. So I'm very familiar with exactly what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. And recognize your PMs are the people who are going to sell your project managers and technical elevated leaders are the ones who are going to sell the work because they know the work.

SPEAKER_02

Right. I mean, clients don't want to deal with people who don't know anything. That's, you know, you're right.

SPEAKER_06

We have AI now, those frontline salespeople who are just all talk and selling the pitch. Owners and consumers can get this information themselves now. We need the goods, you know, the value creators, uh, those are the people who are going to be able to close the work.

Why Most Deals Don’t Close

SPEAKER_02

I thought it was interesting too. You were talking about how this guy, back on your case, wasn't ready to sell the firm psychologically, maybe. I think, you know, don't you find often that many of these business owners, their whole identity is wrapped up in that business? And to separate from that is extremely difficult for them. And they think they want to do it, but then as they get closer to actually doing it, creates a lot of anxiety, don't you think?

SPEAKER_06

Totally. You know, a lot of business owners come to me and say, I'm ready to sell my business. Can you help me?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

And I'm like, oh, interesting. It sounds like you're ready to start this conversation to ensure that you and your business are ready. And that readiness illusion is something that I come across all the time. And it is important that business owners first prioritize their personal goals and take the time to re-identify with who they are, what they want in life, what's next, for them to also identify their personal objectives around financials. What are their financial needs when they're no longer trading time for money? How do they want to live their life? What are their financial goals around wealth transfer to their children? So when we understand the personal and financial objectives of the owner, we can then start to identify their wealth gap and their needs and opportunity cost of staying in the business because they have a clear line of sight of what they're pulling towards. A lot of business owners that say I'm ready are feeling the push because they're under pressure or they've had enough. But it's really not that they are ready, it's they're ready to start this conversation about what's next and what they need.

SPEAKER_02

I believe you. I think that's um it sounds sounds again very familiar. I can't say that's a surprise to hear you say that.

SPEAKER_03

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06

And energy starts moving towards that. Once the owner is clear around above and beyond, they pull themselves up out of their business and they create a clear path. Energy starts moving in that direction because we have a alignment around where they're going. Otherwise, they'll stay stuck.

SPEAKER_02

How do you help them figure out what that next thing is?

SPEAKER_06

Mm-hmm. At the beginning of the journey, I keep it light. You know, I just do a little bit of a discovery around who they are, their stakeholders' family, their bucket list, if they did sell, what would turn be terms that they'd want, uh, what are some big goals they have in their life. But uh inside of the engagement, I get very detailed with them. And so that looks like literally understanding their wealth gap, establishing a financial plan, de-risking themselves and getting clear on what they need. And then a detailed two-page personal plan. I call it my life design, where I'm re-identifying my core values, my purpose, my legacy, my 10-year legacy that I want to have created, also coined as my significant life. I get them to design literally what their life looks like three years from now, holistically across uh what they're doing with the in terms of spending time with people, their purpose, their wealth, how they want to grow, and the value they want to create in the world and their health is really, really important. So I get a clear picture three years out. We set goals for the coming year and identify all the questions they're not yet asking themselves, but they should. And then we work that plan every 90 days to systematically move towards what I call freedom. And it's the freedom to choose themselves and live their life by design.

The Readiness Illusion Before Selling

SPEAKER_02

Very interesting. What about this uh post-exit identity crisis?

SPEAKER_04

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02

So you could have all the planning in the world, and maybe things still don't work out like they wanted, or maybe they work out like they wanted, but it's not what they ultimately want.

SPEAKER_06

Mm-hmm. You know, depending on the type of exit that a business owner has, whether it's a voluntary or involuntary, can really determine what that crisis, the magnitude of that crisis looks like. If it's involuntary due to a, you know, a death of a shareholder, a disability, a disagreement, distress or divorce, um, you know, these involuntary triggers of an exit can cause catastrophic impact on the person, the business owner, because they didn't see it coming. If it's a voluntary exit, even still, if there's a voluntary exit where a lot of the people in the deal team and that workflow are focusing on the money and the mechanics of the business. They're not focusing on the human being. Are they going to be okay? What are they going to do next? In both of those scenarios, business owners 75% of the time move into a crisis, a regretful state after their exit. And most of that is born out of a lack of preparedness and planning early enough to help them figure out who they are, how they want to live their life, and how to make that happen. And they get stuck in this transition gap. So after they sell, voluntarily or involuntarily, the space between that exit and them living their life by design whole and intact with themselves is this transition gap. And that requires coaching, support, resources. I get my business owners, as I said, to not just have a two-page personal plan, but 90-day goals, an energy management practice, a personal board, you know, your key people that you go out for dinner with or willing to set it to you straight.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

I do all those things with them to make sure that life continues on after the business. They're intact, they're whole, and they know where they're going and they're supported.

Post-Exit Identity And The Gap

SPEAKER_06

I got stuck in that gap myself and I hit rock bottom. I became an alcoholic. In my double exit, I lost my children, my home, my business, and my identity. That realization of suddenly having everything that I built for 15 years vanish because I simply said, I don't want this anymore, was so much to bear. I fell really hard. Suddenly I had a life and then I had no life. In that struggle, I was downtown in Vancouver feeding people on the street on Christmas morning in the homeless district. And my friend and I that were there, we were leaving. And as we were leaving, we found a dead man on the street. I'd seen a dead person in real life. We called the paramedics, and it turns out he wasn't fully dead. He was deeply unconscious. And as they brought him back to life, they sat him up against a concrete wall. And on the front of his shirt was a Vince Lombardi quote. It said, It's not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get back up. That was my wake-up call to go on my own personal transformation journey. And what I realized is that I didn't suck. I was just stuck in the gap and I didn't know how to get out. I first started changing my mindset, then my behaviors. And as my energy increased, I started to create more attraction of resources. My kids came back, and the life I wanted was mine for the making. And I discovered that freedom that I get to choose how I want to live my life. Life is not happening to me, it's happening for me. And I can choose to move from living by default to living by design. That man gave me a wake-up call. And every business owner has that opportunity. But it's very hard when you're stuck there. And that's why early planning matters most.

Why Entrepreneurs Jump Back In

SPEAKER_02

Wow, so that is profound that you went through that. And I can see why it's so important to you, the mission that you're on now. You f do you find uh, or how often do you find, I should say, uh, that these business owners, after they get out, they've got their plan, they they do everything that you tell them to do to get ready. They have a successful exit. Uh you know, they're they're trying to be their whole self, doing all the things that you suggest, not just sitting around counting their money, but living life, okay. That they decide they want to go back into business. How often do you find that? And they're jumping.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I don't have the data, but my experience is eight times out of ten.

SPEAKER_02

Eight times out of ten, there you go. That's interesting. I'm not surprised. Once again, I think entrepreneurs, real entrepreneurs, they can't stop. It's it's just it's their nature.

SPEAKER_06

But Mark, what happens I've noticed, is if we if if if we don't hold that space for them to do that transition work, they end up going back and repeating a lot of patterns from the past.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

We have to hold the space for the transition and the human transformation work. I know somebody who literally is in the MA space. I think she's a coach. She had a very successful marketing agency in New York and has an epic exit story. And she didn't hold that space. She went straight into creating something new, where she's a her organization coaches other entrepreneurs and doubled down and moved into the MA space as well. Busier than ever, more out of balance than ever, but didn't create the space to learn from her own transition journey, transformation journey, and really come into that wisdom. But I believe in life we're on this journey to find and become ourselves and come home to ourselves. Now, business owners have an addiction to money and success and the vices that often prevent them from doing this work. And the cycle tends to repeat if we don't have an interrupting moment and the resources or help to help really embody the growth that can come from those transition journeys. We all go through transitions. I have a puppy that I'm letting in and out here. Um we all go through transition processes. For example, we raise kids, then we become an empty nester. That's a transition process. And a lot of people don't recognize the opportunity to do personal development work there. They just get busy doing other things. So I think that there's an opportunity there to slow down, to go fast, to hold the space. And that's why having a resource who's guided the exit and who can support and research. Source that space after the celebrations, after the money is in the bank, and hold the line for the business owner to be able to do their own personal regroup and transformation work. Those are the professionals that I feel like stand out. Those are the market leaders who are willing to see things beyond just the bank account. And that's what I do. Other growth advisors that I work alongside, we do that. We are there from three to five years before a transaction, through the transaction to the post-transaction era, and we quarterback the resources, the advisors, the support and the process that helps the business owner walk to their destiny.

Exit Planning Fees And Real Value

SPEAKER_02

How do you guys get paid for what you do? Is it you charge by the hour? Do you charge by the year? Well, how do you do it? I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_06

So I've been studying the business of exit planning while also in the business. And I've kept my model very nimble so that I can learn. And nothing worse than building out an advisory practice and realize it's not relevant in the market. And the business landscape is changing. So I've stayed nimble by design. What I have discovered is that we need to reduce the barriers to entry. So some people in my profession charge a lot of money upfront for an in like an investigative report analysis and a strategic plan. My clients, I noticed that did do that, didn't get a lot of value. What they got the value from was the execution, the month over month, quarter over quarter support, coordinating the meetings, measuring the growth, and managing the deliverables. And so now I just move straight into month over month. I do not ask for a piece of the pie when they do sell. I don't ask for phantom shares. I don't take equity. I stay focused on the value creation, and my clients are in a month-over-month engagement. No big cost to do business with me up front. With the age of AI now, it is amazing what a business owner can discover about themselves and their business on Claude or OpenAI or Grok. So I think we have to get smarter. And I know what business owners struggle with most is the execution of the plan. They can have all the plans they want, but it's the execution. And people who are good at that, such as myself, that's where the value is created.

SPEAKER_02

How do you grow your own

How Advisors Scale Without Burnout

SPEAKER_02

business? I mean, how do you avoid being a victim of exactly what you're helping your clients with?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, but you have to practice what we preach. You're spot on. So one of the pitfalls of uh the independent practitioner model or the micro firm model is that you are the product.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_06

Right. So I was a former EOS implementer, a franchise holder, and all that model would allow me to simply trade my time for money, and that's it. If I wasn't in the session room with a client, I wasn't earning money. The more I got educated about value creation, the more I realized I needed to go and build a firm of my own. There are five things that every micro firm practitioner needs to be in practicing to ensure that their business is scalable and not dependent exclusively on them. And this was born out of probably 300 conversations with fellow advisors in the Exit Planning Institute community. You need very strong positioning, understanding who your ICP is, who that target market customer is, and how you serve them. Trying to help everybody will kill your business. Plan. You also need a personal plan, financial plan, and a business plan that is in alignment. We have to practice what we preach. Process. Simple, repeatable process that anybody who's got business background, a former business owner who's been through an exit can replicate. So a simple, clean, repeatable process. This was the next one, the number four is platforms. That's where I got stuck. I was trying to use all this fancy software to run these engagements and lost a handle on my process. And so when you get your tech stack right and you've got an engagement platform that I use one called Propel Your Business, it creates a front of house for my firm. So clients can come in and interface with it. Advisors can come in and interface with it. And it's not all dependent on me doing the work. And then partners. My work is scaled by the extent of my partnership ecosystem. I bring together advisor teams, legal, accounting, wealth managers, MA practitioners, personal coaches. I bring together the advisor. So I scale with a tight process on clean tech with the right partners and a repeatable framework that anybody can pick up, almost a franchisable model and replicate. So when I have needs, I just bring on a new advisor onto my platform, train them in my method, and I can see everything that's taking place on my platform. That's how I scale.

Empathy Over Expertise Alone

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, that's I'd say that's a much more organized than typical sub-practitioner who does what you do.

SPEAKER_06

Somebody asked me recently why I'm so impactful with business owners. And I say, Well, I am a former business owner myself. They're like, Well, how can I become impactful even if I'm not a business owner? I'm an advisor. And I said, Well, you just need to become a business owner. Treat your business like your practice like a business.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. That's a problem I have with a lot of coaches, I'll be honest with you. Ones that have just been through coach training, but they never had a business. I I think it's very difficult for them to truly identify with their clients and what they're going through. Don't you?

SPEAKER_06

I think so too. And you know, I learned one, uh I was a former yoga teacher and I had a yoga studio, and I went to prenatal yoga, and you're probably thinking to yourself, where is she going? I went to prenatal yoga training. And in that training, there were many people who had never had a baby who were getting trained to deliver prenatal yoga. And they actually put their hand up and said, I don't know if I can do this because I've never been pregnant and I've never felt what it is like to be pregnant. Therefore, I don't know if I can teach it. And a profound moment happened there. The teacher said, Can you be a compassionate witness to what someone is moving through with empathy, care, attention, and guidership? Can you do that? And these people said yes. And she turned to them and she they and she said, then you can be a prenatal yoga teacher, even if you've never been pregnant. I believe advisors can be powerful with business owners if they're willing to step out from behind the desk and sit in the trench with the business owner, sit in the discomfort, not have all the answers, but know how to ask the right questions. Show empathy, care, attention, and good guidership with a proven process, and just be curious every step of the way. I can say everything that I know now has been bought out or born out of my own experience and working with clients, not from textbooks. So if they're willing to be a human advisor, they can be profoundly impactful, even potentially.

Leadership Lessons From Team Sports

SPEAKER_06

Mark, like you and I are good, but we got scar tissue. We've got some like bad habits that we've learned from our business ownership journey, things that we've maybe normalized. The advisor can be objective, but they have to be human first.

SPEAKER_02

I probably have a lot more of those bad habits than you. You seem like you're so disciplined over there. Wow.

SPEAKER_06

I was an athlete growing up. And you know, statistics say that 95% of executives in North America, uh, of a research study was recently done, were former team sport athletes.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

unknown

I believe.

SPEAKER_06

So I've got a daughter who's in hockey, and I'm like, girl, you stay in hockey and you're gonna make it to the top in the corporate world or in the entrepreneurial world.

SPEAKER_02

So you know, that's interesting though that they say that. And and that don't take this the wrong way when I say it, because I think the facts would bear it out. I think a lot of women, unfortunately, did not have those experiences in sports, for example. Many played sort of more individualistic sports if they played sports, rather than on teams like so many male sports are. Now, obviously, some do. Some play basketball and soccer and hockey and lacrosse and all these other things that are team sports, but it's you know, it's not that often. More often than not, they're gymnasts and swimmers and if you look in, I mean, I'm in Canada.

SPEAKER_06

Uh so I grew up in Australia and uh through team sports are like you're it's part of the DNA. Yeah, everything is a team sport. Uh, even golf is a team sport, swimming is a team sport, like everything they do things in co in collectives down there a lot. And if you're not doing a sport, you're kind of weird as growing up. It's like strange that you're not in sports. Canada, I would say I've noticed over the last 10 to 15 years, there's been an uprising of team sports, particularly a lot of in the last five years, investment in female sport programs. My daughter plays ice hockey. So I watch it. It's a very high and volleyball uh in the offseason. Those two sports are the are getting so much investment because organizations, corporations know that their future leaders are currently on the court or on the field or on the ice, and they're investing there, and I think it's smart.

SPEAKER_02

That's very interesting. I like that. Yeah, I played ice hockey myself. So nice. Good for your daughter. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, my boys are going into trades. They played hockey previously as well. Okay. Um, one's going into electrical, and one's going into plumbing, and they just graduate this week.

SPEAKER_02

Awesome. I mean, we need so many more tradespeople. And the fact is, you can do unbelievably well. It's such a great basis for being a business owner.

SPEAKER_06

You know, my push there was with the role of AI, the changing landscape of the workforce, so many unknown things, you know, anything mechanical, manual, uh, was a priority. So what I I actually just wanted to loop that back around. So I get asked a lot about the role of the AI in my profession. And a lot of the advisor space, from accountants to lawyers and financial advisors, people are looking to that, those industries and asking, what value do they bring in the new world of AI? And business owners have so much information now, more than ever, which I think is has its pros and its cons as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_06

What business owners need now more than ever is in all the noise, all the chaos, and all the information that they have, they need a guide. They need a human-centered guide who's in their corner, who will call them out if they need to, is in their corner, seeing the big picture and guiding the process. Because business owners who are going on their succession journey typically have never been there before. And if I ask a business owner, would you go and climb Mount Everest alone? And they're like, No. Would you just decide to go and just go and do it? They're like, no. I'd I asked them what they do. They say they would prepare. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And they'd go with a group with support of others, and they'd have a guide. And I'm like, so you do that if you were climbing Mount Everest. Let's now talk about your business. Let's talk about your succession journey, preparation. Go together and go with a guide.

AI Changes Everything Except Guidance

SPEAKER_06

That's what's going to get you to your destiny.

SPEAKER_02

You know, how I'm just curious, how do your clients find you? I should say. Because my guess is if they get if you get in front of them and you get a chance to have a real conversation with them, they're probably going to want to hire you. I say your I my guess is your close rate is super high. But how do you get your clients for your business?

SPEAKER_06

Mm-hmm. The best source is from an existing client who's looking at their friend, fellow business owner, and says, I don't want them to suffer in the dark anymore. Enough is enough. They need help.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_06

That is the best source. The trust transfer on a scale of one to 10 is like a nine out of 10.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_06

The next best category is the MA advisor. MA advisors who have been around 10 plus years have typically 10 years worth of business owners they've talked to, and maybe 1% of them they've actually transacted. So they have a very deep database of business owners who at one point have put up their hand and said, I want to sell, and the MA advisor has said, you're not ready, or the business is not ready, or go away and come back, but they don't have anywhere to send them. And so MA is a if if I get the right MA relationship, they look at their portfolio of their pipeline and they're like, I don't want that person to sit in the dark anymore. I want them to be able to move forward. So MA uh advisors are another really good source. I do a lot of talks, I do a lot of podcasts, a lot of talks, and people that think, oh, you must like close a lot of business. And I'm like, no, it's just simply education. Because I'm talking about problems business owners don't know that they have. A future that is not real to them. And two very sensitive topics, even more sensitive than politics and religion, it's money and mortality. And so I'm doing tur talks to just turn the lights on and start them asking deeper questions. My close rate from talks is zero. I actually implore them to not seek to work to meet with me until they take some time to think about these questions, talk to their existing advisors, and start to ask themselves, what do I want? And that takes time. Business owners, people think they're selfish. People think owners like you, Mark, we make sales and that all goes straight into your personal bank account, and they have no idea of the struggle and the self-sacrifice that business owners go through on a daily basis. Everybody else gets to go home and you don't. Their ability to put themselves first, actually, in my experience, is very low. And it takes time to get them to the table where they're ready to really start this work. So I have a fairly high success rate, but I have a very focused niche ICP. My ideal client profile is clear. And when I'm not the person to work with them, I refer them to my peers. I actually turned my business into an academy to train other advisors to do this work better because they've got the theory and they've got the experience. They just struggle with the execution. And so I have advisors in my reach and I feed them work because I believe together collectively we can have a lot more impact than I can have alone.

Where Exit Planning Clients Come From

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Wow, that's great. So um do you find uh back on the sellers for a minute? You you talk about uh you know the the two um sacred subjects um money and what was the other one?

SPEAKER_06

Mortality.

SPEAKER_02

Mortality, yeah. I I find that a lot of entrepreneurs, as odd as it is, the money's really not the most important thing to them at all. It's it it is a byproduct, but then at the same time when they want to go sell their business, they think it's worth three times what it really is. Do you do you find that?

SPEAKER_06

They typically entrepreneurs have uh most of the entrepreneurs that I meet have a complex relationship with money born out of their formative years of childhood.

SPEAKER_02

Boy, right on with that.

SPEAKER_06

So when I start talking with a business owner, sometimes it takes me 10 years to get a business owner to a point where I'm like, they're like, one of my former clients from seven years ago, no, eight years ago, reached out and said, I'm ready to have this conversation, Renee. So um I got I get every business owner to tell me in the first conversation who they are, where they grew up, what it was like, what they learned, what hardship they had, like all these things. And people say, Well, this is the most weird sales call I've ever had. I'm like, it's not a sales call. It's an invitation to get to know yourself because the more you get to know yourself, your needs, your motivations, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I can I can assess where the gaps are, where the needs are, and psychologically understand the level of readiness, willingness, and ableness to do this work. Uh but the the complexity there is like we don't care about the money, it's about the meaning. But when it comes to the crunch, we do care about the money, and then some days we do, and then some days we don't. And where is it all coming from? Because we have a complex relationship. And that's why MA people like or people like me in the process, because I'm managing the number one risk, the business owner.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

And that is unique to every business owner. But most of them got kicked out of the home at like 17 years old. Parents said you're on your own now, or their dad went bankrupt, uh, you know, was their primary income bearer went bankrupt, or they came from poverty, um, or had it all, lost it all. Like they've got some kind of thing there. And I go looking for that. I need to understand that. Boy, you're right on with that. When we're at we're backed up against the wall and we're moving into the unknown, all that stuff shows up, all that trauma, unaddressed stuff shows up, and I need to be ready for it. I'm not a therapist.

SPEAKER_02

You're not? I mean, you seem like one. You get into the weeds with these people.

SPEAKER_06

I mean, yeah, yeah. People ask me, am I concerned about you know, client churn? I would say my clients never really leave. They just sometimes go on long trips and then they come back. And this is a lifelong journey. So I think what is also important you asked earlier about scale. It's not about volume of clients that you work with in my type of work.

SPEAKER_04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06

It's about the depth of those relationships. And it is important that there be a value exchange. What makes this work challenging to price out is that there are so few people that do it, they can't shop this around.

unknown

Right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So that's why you got to take the time to get to know them, have a process that you can write on the back of a napkin, and then create the invitation for them to simply, Mark, choose themselves. That's all they're really doing here is saying that I matter. I am ready to prioritize my needs and wants and to begin this journey, really ultimately home to themselves. Because at the end of the line of life, the money doesn't matter. But meaningfulness does. And that's why we have to take the time to get to know them.

Money Stories That Drive Decisions

SPEAKER_08

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SPEAKER_02

Wow, I wish I had had you around 20 something years ago the first time I sold my business.

SPEAKER_06

But sometimes I'm not the person that is the friend. Sometimes I'm like Dave. We're not doing that. Dave's like, yes, we are. I'm like, no, we're not doing that. And I present back all the things Dave's told me, the former conversations. So I'm not always the most popular person in the room, but I'm necessary.

SPEAKER_02

Now you're starting to sound like my wife. I mean, it took me three tries to get that. She's still like, no, not doing that. Yeah. Uh, but no, I I hear what you're saying, and and I believe that's true. But um, but yeah, I mean, I think from my own experience, I made a lot of the mistakes you're talking about. I rushed right back into doing something else. And I did repeat many of the same mistakes. And, you know, I've done this more than once. So, like you said, I mean, it it it's hard when you're used to constantly being under the fire. If nothing else, that's an addiction. Dopamine is a good thing. You keep putting yourself into that situation and then you survive. It's like, hey, I pulled off another one, you know.

SPEAKER_06

I call it the wartime CEO.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

But in peacetime, he doesn't know what to do with himself.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. You may not get really where you want to go doing that. You could certainly spend your life doing that and and convince yourself that you're being useful in the process. And maybe you do make money and all those other things, but it's not necessarily what's best for you ultimately, as you say, to get to your desired end state. You know, you've got some terminology for that. I want to change the subject for a minute, though, back to something you mentioned earlier.

EOS: Useful System Or Corporate Molasses

SPEAKER_02

Um, and and in this one, I I I really hopefully you can give me some honest opinion on EOS. And I'm gonna tell you how I feel about it first, and then you can tell me why I'm wrong or whether there's any truth to my thinking. I think it's all bullshit.

SPEAKER_06

I actually hope that we record this and send it. I have a call with leadership in two weeks' time. So I'm I'm excited about this conversation.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Well, I think it's a lot of it's bullshit. Um, I've seen lots of EOS implementers, I've seen lots of companies implement. They have tons of meetings, they have lots of terminology for their rocks and for all this other stuff. It's real catchy. And in the end, they spend so much time and effort on this process that it becomes like they get mired down in the molasses. It's it's the opposite of entrepreneurial, in my opinion. At least that's how I've seen it. I can't claim to have seen any tremendous successes. I've seen very long implementations that were eventually abandoned in many cases. And yet everybody, you know. Uh not everybody, a lot of people act as if this is like the savior for everything in business is EOS. It's kind of like good to great, you know, it's like a Bible. This Patrick, what's it, Lencioni or however it's pronounced.

SPEAKER_06

Kim Collins and Patrick Lencioni, Michael Gerber, like all these philosophies, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Yeah. And and anyway, what you you were an EOS implementer. You've obviously gone beyond that with your whole thing that you're doing now, which is in my mind it's a lot more holistic and wider ranging.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. Excellent. Okay, rapid fire. Ready?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

When EOS was originally built, the model of the implementer was for the post-exit business owner to have something meaningful that they could do to help other business owners.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_06

Okay. So that was our ICP for the implementer. It's gone a lot wider than that.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it has.

SPEAKER_06

Right?

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_06

So I'll keep that there. Um, those books, Gerber, Lincioni, Collins, uh, Covey, all those things are great in theory, but what owners and teams struggle with is execution.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

All Gino did was uh design an execution system to create a 90-day world where energy was moving towards a vision, there was accountability, execution on priorities, we're measuring the most important things, and we're having meetings to solve issues and drive execution. So we created an execution system, which I think is genius. I this is the way I work. So, like Gino's mind and my work, we're constantly making models to drive execution, better results, and so forth. So the science of it is magnificent. Even though I am no longer a franchisee, at a baseline, I require my clients to implement or have EOS because I ain't going in there every day. But I need the lights on, I need a clear structure, I need a vision that the owners and operators are in line with, the right people in the team. If I can't see into the team, I cannot determine if we've got the right people on the bus or not. And are they actually going to make it through the transaction? EOS turns the lights on, creates a system at a foundation, and actually is a baseline for value creation. I build six layers of value on top of EOS. So I've required at a minimum. It's an execution system that drives change, unlocks growth. Now, back to the first point. When we have people who are implementing EOS who are perhaps not former business owners or not trained to think like a business owner, it can tend to become a focus on retaining the client and preserving the revenue as opposed to adopting entrepreneurial thinking by really going in and changing the game for the business owner and their team.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. That that I makes a lot of sense to me because I've seen a lot of that out there.

SPEAKER_06

I'm going to keep going. Can I interrupt you? It's your portion, yeah. 24 months to mastery, we should be at 80% or stronger in 24 months if we're doing our job well.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_06

The client is intended to graduate, move into independence, and embed the EOS into their DNA. So we're not even talking about EOS, we're just running our business with more discipline. So the expectation is you will be graduating and constantly working with new teams because you're imp when you're implementing an ERP or a CRM software in your company, does that go on perpetually? No, you implement, adopt, and integrate. So you're not supposed to be working with the implementer indefinitely. However, if the company's acquiring and bringing on new companies, spinning off, moves to an acquisition and goes through different major life cycle shifts, absolutely the implementer may be value added along the way. The other piece here is that we have got so focused on learning the science of it, we've lost the art of it. So with science is everybody needs to be in a meeting and everybody needs a measurable and all these things. So we often over-engineer EOS in the business. Okay. So the implementer needs to understand the size and scale and journey of that business, really right-size EOS for that company, and recognize pulling the entire production staff off the floor for a level 10 is ludicrous. But there are meeting rhythms that we can have, ways that we can cascade information, but there's nuance, and the implementer needs to work with the team to really make EOS their own rather than being hard and fast regimented. So we can avoid the excess and make it their own. But the biggest thing, Mark, that I learned, and the reason why I stepped out for a period of time, and I'm not saying I would never go back. Those are some of the conversations that I'm having coming up. But the biggest miss, in my opinion, is we're not having the most important conversation. What does the owner want? My work carves out the owner's box, sits with the owner there, builds the plan, and aligns the team with it. It's their business, it's their future.

Where To Find Renee And Wrap

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_06

And the owners and operators have to align.

SPEAKER_02

You can use EOS. You can also have a really good strategic planning process in my mind that's going to do a lot of these things. But, you know, when it comes to that, I mean, you're right on with that, because I always thought it was absurd when I'd see companies that are like going out to their employees and asking them what the vision for the company should be. If the owners don't know that, what how in the world are your employees going to tell you that?

SPEAKER_05

It's like asking the kids, how should we live our life? Yeah, exactly. Parents are in charge.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's so true. Wow. Well, it's really been interesting talking with you, Renee. And um, I can see why you're effective. Uh uh you have a uh a very clear way of communicating in uh real words that don't sound like BS. And I can tell you've had a lot of experience that's valuable, and uh I'm sure you provide a lot of value to your clients. If somebody does want to learn more about you or reach out to you, where do they find you?

SPEAKER_06

LinkedIn is a place that I exist uh on a weekly basis. So Renee Russo Rise Up BC on there. Uh my website is riseupbc.com. Uh and so uh the fastest way is probably LinkedIn. Uh but you can contact me by email from the website as well. There is a book that I would recommend every business owner read, and it's called Walking to Destiny. And it outlines the inevit uh 11 essential things that every business owner must do to ensure that they are free to walk to their destiny and live their life by design. It covers the personal planning, financial planning, and business planning, what to expect from your advisor ecosystem, and how to create the execution system to get there. Yes, you'll need a guide, and certified exit planning advisors are certified in that method. Uh, people like me, specifically quarterback the entirety of that. And uh every business owner, I just encourage you to recognize that if you don't matter, nothing matters. Everything you need really starts with asking yourself important questions. Who am I? What do I want? Where am I going? And then looking at the business through that lens. Because if you don't matter, nothing matters.

SPEAKER_02

It's awesome. All right. Well, hey, it's been great having you on the show here. I hope we get a chance to talk again sometime. And uh I wish you the very best. And clearly you're helping many people, and that's a noble endeavor.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you. So I'm very thankful for this opportunity.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. And uh so everybody, I guess this concludes another episode of Big Talk About Small Business.com.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk About Small Business. If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows, be sure to head over to our website, www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com, and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business. And be sure to head over to our website to read articles, browse episodes, and ask questions about upcoming shows.