S4 Ep 2 Finding Your Superpower with Andy Chaffee

Mud, rain, and a first-ever DNF set the stage for a comeback story packed with practical wisdom. I sit down with ultrarunner Andy Chaffee to retrace how a soaked 75-mile stop at Indiana Trail 100 became the catalyst for smarter fueling, better decisions, and two confident 100-mile finishes. From childhood races and college running to post-grad burnout and re-entry through Ironman, Andy explains what drew him to ultras: the thrill of uncertain finishes and the constant problem-solving they demand.

We unpack the big pivots that made the difference. He traded gel fatigue for high-carb liquid fueling with neutral flavors, then layered in real foods when his stomach felt empty, not just when his legs flagged. He reframed race day as rolling crisis management—system checks, small fixes that pay off two hours later, and permission to throw out the plan near the end. And he tested a 10-minute power nap at mile 91 that left him sharper and looser, powering a strong close. If you’ve ever wondered whether a short sleep helps or hurts, Andy’s answer is clear: done right, it’s rocket fuel.

The best part might be the people. His wife runs point as lead crew, blocking rash DNFs and insisting on critical calories. Friends who don’t consider themselves runners still make perfect pacers with the right brief: distract, cue terrain-based pacing, and protect decisions as focus narrows. We trade Huron 100 stories—headlamp woes, burger cravings, pancake salvation at mile 80—and talk about what’s next: pacing at Huron, a spring road marathon to bring back speed, a maybe on Wolverine, and a hopeful ticket in the Western States lottery.

If you’re chasing your first hundred or trying to shave hours off a stubborn course, this conversation offers concrete tactics and a mindset you can use right away: build a fueling base you can tolerate for 30 hours, plan targeted solids, practice short naps, and recruit a crew that knows when to push and when to protect. Enjoy the ride, then share it with someone on your team. Subscribe, leave a quick review, and tell us: what’s your late-race secret weapon?

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Transcript

Meet Andy: Early Running And Family Origins

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hello and welcome back to Over the Next Hill Fitness Podcast. I'm Carla Coffee, your coach and host for today's program. This program is sponsored by Coffee Crew Coaching. If you need a fitness coach, I am available mostly online right now. My uh in-person is pretty booked up. Thank you, all of my athletes. I appreciate that. But I still do have a little bit of room for an online coaching. If that's something you're interested in, please look me up or email me, Carla at coffeecrew coaching.com. You can follow me on YouTube, and you also can follow me obviously on this uh podcast as well as on Facebook. So I do appreciate you to give me five stars, uh, a great five star rating. That would be awesome. And again, you can reach out to me um at any time at Carla at coffeecrew coaching.com. Today I'm gonna be talking to Andy Chafey. We had such a good time uh on the recording, but not only on the recording, I met Andy um at the Huron 100 and found out during this taping how long we actually ran together because clearly I was in another running world. Um so I hope you'll enjoy this episode and we'll see you at the end. Okay. Welcome to the show, Andy. It's so great to have you here and good to see your face again.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yeah. Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

So uh you and I met uh during the Here on 100. And I don't even know what mile, um, but we got to talking and you had some great things in store for the rest of the year because that was in June 2025. Um we're not gonna start there. We I want to back up a little bit and start like when you started running, why you started running, how long, whatever, you know, were your trap star. So tell us all about Andy.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah. Um, so I grew up in Michigan. Uh I'm currently located in southeast Michigan, um, just east of Detroit. Uh, but um I grew up in a family of um nerds, I would say. Uh both my parents met in the marching band in college. So if that tells you a little bit about it, my dad was a music major um and uh was a band director and then a principal for a long time uh at an elementary school. And so um I was the the odd one of the family. My sister's an artist and and everything as well, and I was the one who was always interested in sports. Um, my dad used to take me to uh uh U of M football games um uh to watch the halftime marching band uh show.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

So it wasn't to watch the football game.

From College Athlete To Burnout And Comeback

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Exactly, exactly. I got to watch football, and then he got to watch the marching band at the halftime, and so um but we had just moved into uh a new town uh called Parkston, Michigan, and they had a fall festival where they'd you know open up downtown and have a bunch of like uh food vendors from the local community. This was pre-food trucks, if you can imagine a time before food trucks, but um they had a little little race, and my parents were like, Well, do you you're an athlete, you want to run? And I was uh I think I was about eight years old at the time. And so um I went and did the 5k. I I have no idea what my time was. I want to say I was a right uh just under 30 minutes or something like that. And um uh uh I won my age group, which I think was because I was the only one in my age group, and um and then we had barbecue at one of the food vendors afterwards, and I got really sick. And so that was my first introduction to running um uh back when I was eight. And then uh they they had you know different track programs for getting kids involved uh where I live, so Hershey Track and Field, um, which is like a national program. Uh kids can run, and then they have a national championship over in Hershey, Pennsylvania, that you can do all through elementary school.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Um, before you continue, did you run that alone, or did one of your parents run with you for that first I ran it by myself? Wow. Okay, yeah.

First 100 Attempt: Indiana Trail DNF In The Mud

SPEAKER_02 4:30

This I you know, I think back to those things now that I have kids. Um, I have a seven and a half year old son who he just did his first 5k um at the turkey trot in downtown Detroit. And um, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, like, they let me run all by myself for that whole distance with with you know just you know, people standing on the side of the road to tell me which what direction I was supposed to go and everything like that. So um but yeah, I uh I I was always on the smaller side. Um I didn't break five foot or a hundred pounds until high school. And so uh I went out sixth grade. I went out to uh join the football team, and the football coach looked at me and pointed to the other side of the field and said, cross country practices over there. And uh and so I joined cross country and started running ever since then. I was always on the on the running team ever since then. Um, so I ran all through middle school, high school, and then I ran in college as well. Uh I ran down at a really small university in Ohio called Bluffton, um, which is where I met my wife. And uh then we moved um to South Carolina for a while uh while I did grad school, and I completely stopped running. Um so this was 2014. I I completely stopped working out and running in general. Um, prior to that, after college, I had done uh a couple Ironmans and so got into triathlons and everything like that for a little while and then just stopped at cold turkey. Um grad school was uh next level of stress for me. Um and it and it just completely interrupted my life in terms of um any fitness I had. And so uh fast forward about four years, and I had blossomed to uh a hefty like 215 pounds on a on a five foot eight, five foot nine on a good day frame. And uh um my wife and I I had started a career up here back in Michigan, and and we just welcomed our first uh our firstborn, which was our son, and we were getting newborn pictures taken. And um I saw myself in the newborn pictures and I was like, that doesn't even look like me, like my my my mental image of who I am as a person. And uh um I told my wife at that point, I was like, all right, I'm doing another Iron Man next year, and I was way overweight, hadn't ran a step in years, and uh found a local coach um who I still train with actually uh today. Um I've been with him since 2018. Um, and he's he signed on board with me for what my goals were, and and I started doing Ironman's again and then uh got into ultra running in 2023.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Okay. And then so what was your first ultra?

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Uh the Indiana Trail 100.

unknown 7:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

So I uh I I had done an Iron Man, Iron Man Lake Placid in the summer of 2023, and I finished, and my wife looked at me and she goes, Do you even have fun with these anymore? And um, I had gotten really comfortable with Iron Man's. I'd gotten to a point where getting to the starting line. I never had a fear of not finishing. It was just a matter of if the day was gonna go well for me and I was gonna get a good time, or if I was gonna suffer through some setbacks to the finish or something like that. And um, she's like, Are you even having fun? Because that was kind of the uh the appeal of Iron Man's in the past was getting to the start line and having those butterflies of is is am I gonna make it to the finish line today kind of a thing. And so uh that was July of 23, and I signed up to do Indiana Trail 100 in uh August of 23, and the race was in October. Okay, and uh I'd never run more than a marathon by itself. I'd done Iron Man's, obviously, which are you know anywhere from 12 to 16 hour races depending on the course. And um just dove headfirst into it. And uh I I I was signing up and I was like, Oh, I could do a 50. And then I said, Well, 50 is not that much longer than an Iron Man in terms of time. So I they had a 75 mile option. I was like, I was looking at the 75 and I was like, I could do a 75. And I go, well, if I'm gonna do 75, I might as well sign up for the hundred.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Clearly, that's the logical thing to think.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Exactly. So I so I signed up, um, went out there, and uh uh I took a stab at you know my first ultra. Um it's a it's an amazing race if you've never been up there. It's uh um uh it's been around for I want to say like 20 years or something, uh 20 plus years. Um it's five uh four loops of 25 miles in a all within a state park that's there. And um it rained for the for 18 hours before the race. Okay, and then it rained for the first 12 hours of the race.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

And so that sounds like ideal climate.

unknown 9:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

And it and it so the race was you know rainy and uh I want to say maybe low 40s the entire race. Um and uh uh I got out there and it was just a mud fest, just absolute mud fest. Just uh um I threw away my shoes after that race. Uh I I took them off after I I uh I I DNF'd. I I should say that's the the first race I've ever DNF'd.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

And um uh I I dropped out at 75 miles. I I finished the third loop, had another loop, and I had about 12 hours to do that last loop. And um just looked at it and was like, I don't want to do the last loop in this these conditions. My quads were also locking up and stuff, and I I I was just done. Um, but yeah, I finished, took my shoes off, and threw them straight in the trash. Uh there was no saving those after that.

Fueling Fails To Fixes: From Oreos To Liquid Carbs

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah. That sounds that sounds like some good wisdom. Was that uh I mean, honestly, and you have to um analyze it like overall, you know, because you could have probably finished, but if you're not having fun and you're feeling, you know, the weather's crappy and your legs are feeling tight, that was a smart decision. Did your coach have anything to do with that decision, or was that just you?

SPEAKER_02 10:45

No, no. So my coach um he doesn't come to most of my races or anything. I usually just I really just use him for programming and you know, asking for knowledge, especially around uh nutrition, he's been extremely helpful in terms of me understanding nutrition. Uh I I'll be the first one to admit that um I am terrible about food. Uh I I love um I love good food. Um and one of and and so for example, the very first marathon I ever did, I was a I I graduated high school and I decided I was gonna run a marathon between going to going to college that summer. And uh my nutrition plan was a sleeve of Oreos. So I I just I ever every you know like five miles or so I'd eat about three Oreos, and that was my nutrition plan for the marathon.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Um now this must have been before you had a coach.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

This was yeah, yeah. I was 18 at the time, yeah. So um uh but the but the problem is I kind of carried that mentality through. Um, I've always just been able to brute force my way through things. Um, that first ultra marathon, I think I had seven or eight grilled cheese sandwiches, uh a few cheese quesadillas, maybe a uh burrito, and um just all sorts of solids and like junk, Mountain Dew all the time. I unfortunately I still do Mountain Dew a lot on the race course. Um uh chicken broth, uh ramen noodles with mashed potatoes and hot sauce in it. Um so I was just literally uh every time I got an aid station, I was just eating whatever they had. Um, so I I I have no idea on that stuff. And so my coach really has helped me hone in on what I'm actually supposed to be doing with nutrition in terms of uh during race day and things like that. The problem for me is is not race day anymore. It's it's now every day at home when I'm eating garbage on top of that.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

So but you need the calories, right? So exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

I just I probably shouldn't be using Taco Bell for those calories.

unknown 12:54

Yeah, probably not.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Well, maybe before race day, I can't imagine eating Taco Bell during the race. That would be too much.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even the race that we did together, I I had uh uh uh we ran so so we picked each other up around mile 20, I want to say.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

And then we ran together until about mile 50.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Did we?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

I don't I don't yeah, yeah. Yeah, we talked the entire way. Um I kind of count that as like a home home uh home field advantage course for me because you know uh it's it's where I do a ton of my training. And actually, you and I um ran the section of the course that I do all of my trail training on. Oh and so uh uh it's the Potawatomi Trail here in South Southeastern Michigan. It's a great 18-mile loop. And uh um I'm pretty sure I had a uh Qdoba burrito and uh some Wendy's uh burgers uh during that time frame when we were running together.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

So that's awesome. Yeah, I don't remember I didn't realize it had was that long of a time span. So it must have been went by fairly quickly. I just remember, so I found out later that I had missed my headlamp pickup. So remember, we used just yours coming into that.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

We did, yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Because I didn't have mine and I had missed it. I um thought it was at um one aid station and it was way, yeah. So I did that on my next one as well. I but I got I got the headlamp back at the end, but totally spaced where I had um left it. Yeah, so yeah, so it was but wow, that was a long time that we we chatted that went by a lot of hours.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah, you think you run out of stuff during that time frame, but I I'm pretty sure we talked the entire time.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah, I can't believe I ran out of stuff to say, but yeah, I'm glad it wasn't just about me.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

So between the Indiana and the Huron, did you do another Ultra in there?

Huron 100: Shared Miles, Headlamps, And Burgers

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Yeah, so um actually, yeah, yes. Uh so I did the Indiana Trail, the first one that I was in 20 the fall of 2023. Um, I I didn't finish it, and uh it was the first DNF that I've ever had. And so obviously my brain goes to, well, I have to go back and do that one now. And so uh fall of 24, I went and did that one um uh and got the finish for for uh my first 100 100 mile finish. Um I did do a 50 mile or tune-up race uh about a month and a half before that race, um, as well at uh uh Woodstock Festival races. That's also here in southeastern Michigan. Um it's got the Halucination 100 in it, but they've got a 50 mile option, and I did that as a tune-up race. Um, I was messing around with nutrition all the way up to the 50 mile, and it did not go well at the 50 miler, um, I remember, and uh uh got really anxious that like things had gone so poorly at that 50 mile, and I had about a month and a half before this hundred that was kind of my redemption 100, um, and uh was able to get across the finish line. That was a tough race. Fall of 24 Indiana Trail. I uh I walked probably about the last 40 miles of the race.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Straight walking, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Just straight walking, couldn't get my legs to respond anymore for some reason. And uh but uh I had I had DNF'd the year before at 75 with so much time remaining that I realized, you know, I could just walk this. Okay, and then I and then I met you at Huron the next spring, or well late spring in June. And uh one of my buddies, um uh it's it's funny, I I I started doing these races, and then people have come out of the woodwork that also do them around me. And so uh there's two other folks that work with me that turns out they they were doing trail runs and didn't realize ultras were an option, and so now we've done two of them together. Um and so uh uh he he dragged me to Huron and as an early season one because he wanted to get you know three or four hundreds in last year, and I was like, I'll do two. Uh and so um, so we went out, we went out to Huron, and uh that was a fun race, but a tough race. Uh um he ended up DNFing and and and I think uh I was running with you when we actually caught back up to him because we have a relationship, he and I, where uh he runs really, really fast for the first 30 miles and then I catch him. Um and then and so he was in a rough shape. Um he ended up getting back out onto the course and uh got to 83 before the time cutoffs got him. But he spent about an hour and a half, two hours at one of the aid stations at mile 35, I want to say. Um uh, which was a little tough. But uh uh so yeah, I I that was Huron was my third attempt at 100, my second finish at 100. Um and then uh I went back again uh to Indiana Trail again this past year. Um I had you know DNF'd the first year. I had ran, I think like 29 hours the next year because I walked the last 40 miles and I wanted to put a good effort in and actually, you know, um I knew the course like the back of my hand, having been there um four years in a row now, and uh was able to to really have a solid day and and and feel like I I actually understanding this whole hundred mile thing now. And uh for you and uh was able to was able to get a uh a timer right around 25 hours this time. So I dropped about four hours off my time from last year.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Great. So you did that just prior to running again in June when I met you?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

No, I I had done that this past fall, so after June.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Okay, after the June. Okay. So that must have been where I got the crazy idea that I could do two in a year. Because I did the Wolverine in October. And it was an Augur year. Yeah. And I thought, I that must have been you. I'm blaming you for that. And if you've got them, like you feel like you understand them, you need to be coaching me instead of the middle because stinking clue.

Redemption And Learning To Manage Crisis

SPEAKER_02 19:46

And and and and that's something that's interesting, you know. Like uh I I'll say I understand them, but it's really I'm understanding what my body needs for it now. Um uh I I I've gotten to a really interesting point in my running, especially for ultra endurance running, that um I can tell when things are going wrong well in advance of them going wrong now. Um uh and and and I've I've experimented enough with uh with things going wrong that I know how to fix them. Uh I always tell people that these these long endurance races are really just um you know an entire day of crisis management.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

You're just constantly, okay, what's let me do a check in. I'm checking all the systems. You know, uh this check light is on, but is it really something I need to fix right now? If I don't, is three other checklists? Flights coming on later or or anything like that. And um, my coach always tells me, you know, what you do right now is going to impact you in two hours. And so um uh that that is sort of the direction I've I've leaned into. And it and it unfortunately what that has done also, though, is that as I get closer to the end of the race and I only have two hours left, I I start completely throwing everything out the window because if I only have two hours left, it doesn't matter at that point, right? Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

You know what we always say too, me and um another friend that I run with, and she's um she does a lot of marathons, is it's really an eating fest. It's who can get in the the most food and keep it down because that's what you need is that solid food. And if you can't train your stomach, the other training really doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Yeah, yep. And and it's it's really interesting too because uh uh I have found that gels don't necessarily work for me. No, right? Um, I had almost exclusively used them during my Iron Man's. Um that's you know, back when I was doing Iron Man's, that was the the the predominant uh uh way to fuel during those races. Uh everyone was using gels and things. Um they're easy to carry, easy to easy to suck down on the bike and things like that.

unknown 21:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

But the whole change moving to um uh liquid nutrition for for high carb drinks and things like that has really changed uh how I've viewed nutrition now. Um so I use a 90 calorie or 90 carb uh per bottle nutrition now. And uh it's called Never Second.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

So um uh the my coach helped work with them in terms of their design of the product and things like that. And so um uh he he clued them into me. It's a really easy thing to drink. It's it's just water with a little bit of uh this with this powder in it. Um it's got a little bit of a chalky taste to it at times, but honestly, uh as far as some of these high carbs drinks has has gone, it's the easiest one for me to stomach. Um it's got a very neutral palate too, which is something that uh is important because there were times where I would get so sick and tired of the really sugary, like raspberry and strawberry lime flavors, and I just couldn't bear them. Um we were doing that here on 100, and uh, I don't know about you, but my watch had it at 104 point like three miles or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Well, of course, mine quit at like mile 57 or something stupid, and you know, my headlights went out during in the woods, and so I was in there for like five hours with my phone trying to navigate. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

So I was out there for for a little over 30 hours for that race, and um I was still able to take that nutrition. It it did not bother my stomach at all. Um, now that's not gonna satisfy you. I I can usually go about four to six hours on that liquid nutrition by itself, and then all of a sudden I I I I'm not feeling like I'm bonking, but my stomach feels empty. And so I need the solids still. I have to have the solids, and so that's when you get the Q-Doba burritos and the Wendy's burgers and things like that going on.

Crew, Pacers, And The Power Of Support

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, 30 hours is you need a meal. You can't just be on liquids at that point. So um, I don't know if you recall my daughter-in-law, she paced me. I picked her up when I dropped you after the headlight thing at that aid station, and we kind of split up there. And so, but we saw you periodically, and um she told me, like, I don't know what I was doing, if I had swapped out uh pacers or what, but she was there and I wasn't. And she said that you told your wife, I just want a hamburger for my pocket because she wanted to do something, I don't know what it was, and we still laugh about that. And and she actually said that because I interviewed her about and she said, and I remember that that uh guy you ran with Andy, and he said he just wants a hamburger. And he you she said you just kind of sounded so defeated to your wife. And I remember seeing your wife, you know, care uh, you know, throughout the different pace uh eight stations, and she said you just hung your head.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

I just want a hamburger for my you know, it and I I uh I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll say that I probably definitely said that. Uh I don't remember at this point, but um I think it might be a different direction than what she thinks it was, which is I think she might have thought that I was just really hungry and I wanted a hamburger to carry with me. I it was probably the exact opposite. And my wife, who is like my lead crew person and knows how these races are going for me, even though she's not necessarily a runner herself. She's been, we've been married for, you know, oh gosh, uh a little over 13 years now. And um, she's done all these, she's been with me through all my Iron Man, she's been with me through all of the ultras. So that was her saying, you need to eat, you're not eating. Why aren't you eating? You're gonna stay here until you eat this. And I mean probably trying to compromise and say, just put the hamburger in my pocket and I'll eat it while I'm out there.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Probably so, yeah. Yeah. That's too that was just funny. Um so just so when I did the Wolverine, I got to mile 50. And uh I wrote ran most of it myself until nighttime, and I had uh, you know, night pacer. But uh at 50, so speaking about your wife and how she's been there, my husband has been just a trooper through all of my marathons. You know, I did all 50 states, and now I'm doing these hundreds. He's my crew chief, and he, you know, just does so such a remarkable thing. I walked up to him at mile 50, and he was getting stuff to put in my pack and everything. And I said, I think I'm done. I I just need to be done. He said, No, you're fine. Here's your stuff. And he's like, get back out there. And I'm like, no, I'm I I'm serious. I I I really just I just want to be done. He says, No, you don't. Just keep going. And I was like, crap, I really was serious. And he made me go. And you know, afterwards, I was very thankful and I thanked him for it. Because I really didn't have, I mean, nothing hurt. I just was tired, you know. I mean, how it was a hard, it was hard like Huron, or if not, yeah, it was at almost as hard as Huron. And I was just tired, you know, and plus it was my second one. I'm a little older than you, so to do two within, you know, six months of each other, because one was June, one was October, that's a lot for an old lady, you know. But I did it, I finished it. And uh, but yeah, so our our spouses are just incredible.

Night Running, Naps, And Pancake Salvation

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yeah, I mean, uh I I have been solo in my running and um endurance training and you know, uh the activities that I do so long that um that uh I've surrounded myself in terms of a crew with a bunch of non-runners and non-endurance athletes, actually. And so uh um uh I have a cup, I have a really core group of best friends from my undergraduate uh time. And um they they're always asking, you know, when when what are your race schedule? What's your race schedule? And they'll come out there and they have no idea what's going on. They're just out there to be with the with each other and also support me and everything. And and you got my wife and and my parents, which, you know, my parents have been around me since I was eight doing these things, and um, and and they're still tell us what we need to know and what we need to do. Uh my very first cross-country race in middle school, my my dad came up and said, I don't know how to cheer for you. I I don't know what to do. And so I said, just count what place I'm in and tell me. And so, you know, you got people yelling out time splits and everything. My dad's over there, he's like, 13, 14, 13, and stuff like that. And uh, and all these parents are like looking at him like, what is he doing? Is he is this like code? What is going on? He's just tell me what place I'm in. And he's done that forever uh uh throughout my my collegiate cross country and high school and and middle school and everything. And um, it's funny, I've I've surrounded my people with non-runner or surrounded myself with non-runners to do all of these races, and what that does is um they don't know if things are going bad, but they're just always positive about what's going on. And so uh uh my wife is probably the only one who can really tell when things are not going well. Um and she'll pull me off to the side and be like, okay, what is happening? What do we need to do? And game planning. Uh that first year when I when I DNF'd at uh the Indiana Trail 100, the way they have it set up is you come through the start-finish line and you have to check in it with your bib to start to go out to your next one right after you come in. And uh it's it's it's a little bit of a little cruel thing because you can check in and then immediately DNF yourself. And so that's what I had done at the 75 mile mark that first year is I I went, I checked in before I even said to my uh hi to my family, and I DNF'd myself. And um, I told my wife before the the next year when I was going back to try and get redemption, I said, don't let me talk to those people. And so she had like positioned herself the next year to be much closer to where I was coming through the start-finish, and she'd immediately grab me and say, This is bib number so-and-so. He's going into the tent now. And so she wouldn't even give me the option of doing it then.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

And so um uh yeah, you have those people that know, like, all right, what are the limits and everything? Uh I've had a I've I've got a group of friends now that are are starting to run and they want to come out and pace me. And and it's funny, I it's almost like I have to do these pacer interviews of right, so how how do I do pacing? Because none of them have done it before and they have no idea. Just just run with me, distract me, you know, stuff like that. But also, um they ask, well, uh, how hard are you gonna push yourself? Like when when should I be concerned on that stuff? And I go, you know what? I will know when it's time to drop. There's a difference between being hurt and there's a difference between hurting. And uh, unless I am hurt, we're not stopping, kind of a thing, is is usually the direction I go.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah. Yeah. For my first one, I didn't know what I was doing, you know. And I just told my pasters, I said, if I fall and break my finger, I don't need my finger to run. You strategize, you get me back out running, you know, because I mean, honestly, if you have a broken finger, you know, if I broke a leg, maybe I'd probably stop. But yes, I know. And it, you know, until you're in that position, you don't, you really don't know what you don't know. And you don't know, like to me, it's like, well, we just keep going. You know, if I'm throwing up, I just try to keep things down or whatever, and which I haven't ever had that happen yet. But thank goodness. Um, but yeah, it's and you don't know what to tell them, just stay with me. I don't know, talk to me, tell me stories. Just I don't know. If you run fast, I guess I run fast. And my nephew I had with me with me, was he in that one? Yeah, I think he was. We get lost so many times because he'd bolt out of the woods and I'd just follow him. And then I'd pretty soon I'm like, have you seen any markers? And he's like, No, we turn around, go all the way back, have to find the marker. We went the wrong way. Um, but he was he's fast, and that was like my fastest section was running with him. He was, I'm like, all right. And then he paced me for um Wolverine too. And I said, Okay, you gotta slow down this time. I cannot try to keep up with you. So yeah, but you don't know. You don't uh, how do you interview him? I don't know. I just tell people just bring food and talk to me. I don't know.

What’s Next: Pacing Plans And A Road Marathon

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Right. But yeah, I've had people ask, you know, what kind of music do you want and stuff like that? I'll play DJ and everything. And and the funniest thing is I don't listen to music when I run. Um I I I actually I've gotten really into listening to audiobooks while I run. And so um more often than not, uh I if I'm out on the trail, I'm I'm lost in some, you know, sci-fi fantasy world of a book that I'm listening to, as opposed to, you know, listening or jamming out to some music. Um and so uh uh like this past year at Indiana Trail, I ran the first 75 by myself before picking up a pacer, and I was all excited. I had a book that I really wanted to listen to. I was I was saving it for the race, and and I wasn't gonna listen to it before I got there. And I uh when things got hard, I I threw the book on uh at around mile 50. And then unfortunately my headphones died about two hours into it.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Of course they did.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Exactly. And so uh I only got like two hours of the book in, and then I picked up my pacer and and we just chatted the whole time. Um I was hurting at that point and and really moving hard, but um uh he was doing a great job in helping me out, and and uh one of the the the best things was he could just look ahead, you know, and say, like, hey, there's a little hill, we're gonna walk this section, or this is a good time for you to jog kind of a thing. Because I was just focused two feet in front of me, not paying attention if we were going up a hill or sideways or anything at that point.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Yeah. So what do you got next? What's coming up? Are you doing the Huron again?

SPEAKER_02 34:10

I don't think I'm gonna do Huron again. Um, but uh my buddy who didn't finish last year is going to, and so I'll probably be out there pacing.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Um I the he's had a few races that he hasn't finished, and so I've I've uh last year I went back with him to one of them and helped him finish it. Um and then this year I'm coming back to Huron with him to help him finish that one. So I'll probably do I'll probably do the last 50 with him if he lets me, or if he wants uh someone else to do a portion, I'll I'll do that. But I I've crewed for him a few times. I really enjoy crewing. Um it's a good time. Um uh especially giving back in the way that I usually require people to do it to me. So um uh the only thing that I actually have on my schedule for 2026 so far is I I'm gonna do a road marathon.

unknown 34:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Um I have not run a standalone road marathon since 2010.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Wow. What one are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Uh so I think I'm gonna go down to Carmel, Indiana and do the uh the Carmel marathon down there. Um uh and so um I haven't done any sort of speed work or anything in probably three years. Uh uh I I I live in zone two. I I my coach, my my coach messaged me when I said, Okay, I'm on board for a road marathon. He said, You know you're gonna actually have to do the speed workouts that I programmed for you. And I go, I know I have to.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Well, not technically. You don't unless you plan on really racing the marathon, you can stay in zone two.

Grand Slam Talk, Course Preferences, And Goals

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah, I I'd like to uh put down a decent time. You know, he wants me to put uh a good time down. Um I'm not trying to Boston qualify or anything like that, um, but I would like to see something that's maybe uh uh south of three hours and 30 minutes. Wow just to just to put that out there and know that I can still do that kind of a thing. Um the last marathon I the last open marathon I did was when I was living in Northern Ireland. And so I went and did the Dublin Marathon. Um but I was an international student at the time, living uh an international student life, and my training consisted of um two seven-mile runs a week and then a long run on the weekend. And uh and and so I went to Dublin Marathon, I think I ran three hours and 20 minutes there, and then uh my parents had come and we were going to go uh drive around the countryside of Ireland with them. And so I immediately finished and then hopped into a car and went uh went and toured Ireland afterwards. And so um uh but yeah, it's been yeah, it's been 16 years since I've I've done an open marathon. I'm gonna do that one, and that'll be late April. Um, and then uh I've got I'm gonna pace it here on again uh for for my friend Jason, and then um I have another buddy who uh is doing uh not a buddy, but uh another co-worker who actually uh works for Jason at uh at the same company that I work at, and um he is doing the Midwest Grand Slam.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

What is that of Ultras? And so there's weren't you gonna do that?

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Is that I was, yeah, and then I I ended up running a section with someone who was doing it at Indiana Trail, and she goes, do not do this. Um and so I decided to.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

She's the friend to have.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Yeah. And so it is um, you can either you can do uh the grand slam or the super slam of mid Midwest Ultras. And uh it's either four or five hundred mile uh hundred mile ultra marathons across the Midwest that start right around uh Memorial Day weekend with Mohican, uh Mohican 100, and then um ends at Indiana Trail in October. And so you have you have four or five races in a matter of you know five-ish months um uh to do. And so he's doing that. And so uh I've told him, you know, when available, I'll come in crew and and pace you as well um uh throughout that. They the races are um let me let me get this right. Mohican 100, Kelmoran, which is over in Wisconsin, I think.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Oh yeah, that yeah, that's here.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

That's the second one. It's actually about a week, I think it's a week or two weeks after Mohican. So you only have like two weeks of recovery.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Oof dah.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Um and then uh Burning River in Ohio.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Oh, I haven't heard of that one.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Uh it's I don't uh I I think it's in the Columbus area, but I'm not entirely sure. Maybe it's maybe it's more Dayton area. Um and then uh Hallucination 100, which is here in uh southeastern Michigan at Woodstock Festival, and then uh Indiana Trail 100. And so um he's doing that. I'll probably crew and pace for a handful if I can to those. Um uh I looked at Wolverine actually um as as uh a race to do this uh next October. Um I'm not going back to Indiana Trail. I've I've done it four years in a row now. I don't think I'm gonna do that one again. Uh but Wolverine looked uh really appealing in the point-to-point. I uh I enjoyed I enjoyed the point-to-point aspect of um Huron 100. Uh but I also enjoy knowing where I am on a course. And so uh um I I think you know when we ran together, it was the section of the course that I actually knew because that's where I always train. And so it felt really great when we were running together. It was after that that I was really struggling. Um uh and then Indiana Trail, I I know so well because I've done it so many times. But yeah, Wolverine is one that's on my short list of of maybes to do also.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Yeah. So when um my very first 100 what started in um the mission point of Michigan, it's like over here, and we ran down along the bay and up to Potaski. Oh it started or it ended in the park where the Wolverine starts.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, so that was kind of interesting. Um, what uh else was interesting was you end in another park across the state, right, in Alpina. And what they don't tell you is that a hundred miles is two miles from the finish line. They want you to run all the way to the next park, which is two more miles down the road. So when I hit 100 miles, I'm like, where's the finish line? And so when I cross the finish line and he said, Here comes uh Carla Norton, she's getting ready to uh she's crossing over the 100. Miles and I shouted in this angriest voice, 102. I was so angry that it was an extra two miles. I'm like, you know, you guys could have stopped back at the school. At the school was a hundred miles. Like, well, we wanted it park to park. Okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

But and that was uh that was my only complaint with Huron, was um, and it was it was interesting. All of their aid stations were right on point, you know, like right on the markers that they had said. And then it was right when it got dark that all of a sudden that stopped being the case.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

And so I'm sitting there, I didn't have to show you.

Western States Dreams And Badwater Talk

SPEAKER_02 41:14

I was I was running by myself, it's pitch black outside. We were in uh Brighton recreational area, and that I don't know if you remember that section of the course, but it was just zigzags. It was just zigzags like crazy. So you felt like you weren't going anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yeah, I had uh um just my phone at that point.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Yeah, and and and the craziest thing for me was I didn't see any uh you and I we we left each other uh around mile 50. Um you were you were uh taking a little bit longer time and you were picking up your your uh daughter-in-law, I think it was, right? Yeah, um and so I left and from that point until probably mile 78, so almost like 28 miles worth of running through the night, I didn't see a single person. I I didn't pass anyone, I didn't get passed on by anyone. I was doing a lot of like, am I on the right course? Like, where is everything? But that zigzag section, I could see headlamps on either side the entire time. Yes, and I'm like too I was which way am I even going? Am I getting closer to the people on my right? Am I getting closer to the people on my left or the people on my left behind me? What's going on? And that was so bizarre. I remember there was an aid station that was supposed to be at mile 68, and it wasn't, I didn't get there until mile 72.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

I can't be glad that my watch was stopped.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

I was livid. I I I probably spent a solid 45 minutes at that aid station just like moaning and complaining to my wife and my dad and my uh one of my close friends, um, Seth. And I went down to they had like a a bathroom area, and I went down, I did a complete change of clothes at that point. I was just trying to do anything to get like refresh my mindset. And uh I I was so mad that it was it was another four miles at that point. That was my only complaint about the race, was it was about 104.5 miles or something like that. Which, when you think about it, when you're moving that slow at the end, that's an extra hour of being on the course.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Yeah, yeah. I know we were so long in the woods. My daughter pulled it up on her um her little section because she was with me that whole time, and she said, We entered here, and this is where we, you know, she said it was five hours we were in the woods, and it was because my headlamp had stopped and all I had was a phone and all and her lights were dim. And I said, Well, you lead and I'll just follow. And so I couldn't run because I couldn't see, you know. So I'm going back this year to try to get a better time. Okay. I wonder I must have passed you at that point when you were complaining because I don't know how I got ahead of you.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

You did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah, I don't know how that happened.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

I had to be I uh I had some pretty bad blistering going on that um the the the med people at the uh aid station were taking care of. And I I saw you come in and leave before I left.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Oh, okay. All right. How much did you complain at mile 80 when you saw that stinking sand dune? I was livid. And when I got to the finish line, I said, whose bright idea was that? I just wanted to punch that guy right in the throat. I was like, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_02 44:20

I had picked up my pacer at that point and uh a really awesome guy named Ved, um, uh really interesting dude. He he's do he uh had done Iron Man's with me for a while. My my pacer for the race, unfortunately, um his one of his kids had gotten sick right before the race, and so he dropped out and I called Ved literally the day before the race, saying, I need a pacer. Can you pace for me? And he hopped on it right away. And he was he came in, he had his own wagon full of nutrition that he gave to my family and was like, We're gonna need all of this. And like he was amazing. But uh he videotaped uh me going up that hill and he's like going next to me and he's like, Andy, what are we doing right now? And I and the only response I gave was dying. And and I'm like, I didn't even know I uh I had been in that park before that I I uh go swimming there sometimes and ride my bike in that park, Island Lake State Park. And um, I had no idea that there was a sand dune like that there.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

I bet you they could have gone around it. Honestly.

Wisdom: Find Your Superpower And Your People

SPEAKER_02 45:25

The only saving grace about that was on the other side of it, they had a really great aid station that had like breakfast food. It was like pancakes and syrup, and uh that was the only saving grace about that hill was that you had to cross a parking lot before you got to the aid station. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have heard all about it from me.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Yeah, that that the pancakes, that's where I got my pancakes that morning. And I they were the best thing I'd ever eaten. They were so fantastic. So just ahead of me, well, I was kind of back and forth. I actually ended up passing this guy, but there was a guy in his pacer, and they were taking a nap under the tree. So we we kind of passed him, you know, and and uh pretty soon I get to the next aid station, and he's there again. It was like the rabbit in the hair. How is he getting past me? And I'm not seeing him pass me. It was so bizarre, and he was always taking a nap. And I'm yeah, do you do you remember? Did you ever see it?

SPEAKER_02 46:21

I'm pretty sure I saw those exact same guys. Yeah, yeah, it was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

It was, and so I Ken has a video of me leaving one of the aid stations. I had um ramen noodles in a baggie that they had given me, which was the best invention ever. Was these ramen noodles? And I was just I was complaining. I'm like, look, yeah, there he is, taking a nap again. And I was just in disgust walking out of that aid station. I was like, I couldn't believe how did he get there before me? I would never see him pass me.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

So so this is the thing. I passed him and they were laying on the side of the trail taking a dirt nap. Both of them, and and uh his pacer kind of like smiled up at us as we rode, ran by, and then they come flying past us after that, like 10 minutes later.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

And uh you must not recognize him from the back.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

How did how'd they get so going so fast? Um I actually took that and used it at my next race. I I went um so at Indiana Trail, I uh you know, I was feeling really good until about mile, oh mile like 85-ish, 80-ish. And I was running the whole way. And right around 80 to 85, I started really slowing down. Body was kind of tightening up and and getting I was getting pretty groggy, caffeine wasn't really helping at that point or anything. And um at at uh 86 and a half, mile 80, no, sorry, mile ninety-one, there's an aid station that like your crew can all be at. And we set up you we usually set up like a pop-up tent there and uh have a bunch of stuff and everything. And I told my pacer, I was like, All right, I want to take a 10-minute nap. And he said, Okay, and I said, but only 10 minutes, just only let me sleep for 10 minutes. And it's probably you know 3 a.m. at that point, 4 a.m. And uh I sat down in the chair, I told my wife, I'm sleeping for 10 minutes, and then I will leave. You don't have like I would I was expecting pushback from her, like, no, you're not allowed to sleep, you gotta keep going. And uh and she said, Okay, I'll wake you up in 10 minutes. And they uh they gave me this huge blanket that I have. I wrapped in it, I sat in a bag chair and I was out immediately. Yeah, I woke up 10 minutes later and uh stood up and started rolling. I was cold, obviously, because it was October. Um I grabbed some hot food and hit the trail. I I felt brand new. It was amazing. My legs were loose again. Um, I was able to start, you know, picking up again and and start going. I ran the last two miles of that race at I want to say like 10 minute pace.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Wow.

Closing Thanks And Listener Callouts

SPEAKER_02 49:06

And uh I I'm I'm I'm a firm believer now in the 10 minute power nap at the it in the middle of the night during a hundred now. I I'm I'm willing to lose 10 minutes so that my body feels that good again.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah. Wow. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

So I know that I know you saw him sleeping on the side of the road and stuff like that, but don't knock it until you try it because that one was that I I took that and I was like, maybe sleeping for 10 minutes isn't a bad thing. And uh I tried it and it worked really well.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

I think they did it like every 20 miles. Oh yeah. Because they were always sleeping.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

I I want to say we were I when I saw him, I want to say we were only like five miles from the finish line. Oh I was like, you're taking a nap now, we're almost there.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

And so yeah, he came in just ahead of you too, didn't he? Because because I was uh because I finished before him too, and I and which surprised me. Um, and then I think I was he alone because I think his pacer he uh fell back. I think I think his face pacer got sick or something.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

His pacer is so they were together when we saw them, saw him, and they passed me. Um but I yeah, I don't know. I didn't see them after. I finished that race. I don't know if you remember this. I finished that race. They had like food and stuff in in crock pots afterwards. Um I got a bowl of chili mac and uh sat in a bag chair and had my feet up on a folding chair, and I uh I passed out, I fell asleep like immediately. Um so I'm just sitting there and they're announcing finishers coming across the line 10 feet away from me, and I'm sleeping in this chair with with a bowl of chili mac on my on my stomach.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

So um I I think I was gone by then.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

I waited until you came in and then we I remember seeing you at the finish line giving you a hug and everything.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

So I was like, I gotta wait for I said I had to ask, did Andy get in? Did Andy get in? And they said no, but he's at such and such a and I'm gonna, all right, I'm gonna I want to wait for Andy to get in. So there you go. So then in at Wolverine, I took pancakes. That's I said we're making pancakes. I bought this little heater that plugs into the the car, and I had warm pancakes at uh that my crew had for me. It was it was like magic. I was that was the best thing ever for me.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

So so are pancakes your you know, like your secret, your secret uh weapon now during races, you break them out when things get hard.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

I think that's gonna be forever my secret weapon, yeah. When I got to that uh mile 80 aid station in the morning after that stupid sand dune, and they had pancakes. I'm like, this is the best food I've ever eaten. And I'm like, from now on, it's pancakes. And so I experimented with some different um, like I put oatmeal in them and things like that, to and some blueberries and to kind of see what what worked, you know, what I liked and what I didn't like, and I practiced with them and I honestly don't care as long as it's a pancake. I'm golden. That was just great. So um all right, so you've got uh a couple more races, you're gonna do a lot of pacing, you've got a road marathon. Anything else you want to let the audience know that you've got going on?

SPEAKER_02 52:15

I started entering um the lottery for Western States. Just uh just started entering the lottery for we'll see if I ever get into it. I mean, it's so crazy now how how many times, how many tickets you need to actually get an entrance. But um, that's kind of a, you know, if that ever happens, that'll be really cool. But I'm I'm not counting on it kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

If that happens, I'll pace you.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Because I'll never get in. I don't think I could would want to try to finish that one.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

But my only concerns about that is the heat. Uh I don't do well in hot weather.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

And so um it's not the 14,000 at altitude.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

I don't think so. I I don't know. That's I've never really done anything like that one yet. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Well, so now this year when I um finish uh Huron, you have to have four 100 milers under your belt to register for bad water. So I might try to get into bad water.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

So that's more up my alley, the heat. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

I uh I I'm more than happy to to do some hiking rather than sweating.

unknown 53:22

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

I heard it's even miserable for the crew because you can't keep the car cool enough, you know, going along.

unknown 53:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

Well, that was the first year at uh Indiana Trail when it was rainy and cold the entire time. My my wife and uh my parents were were questioning me afterwards, like, are we gonna do these more? And like, do we really want to do this? Because they did not have a pleasant experience either.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

For sure. All right. Any words of wisdom or bad uh advice that you'd like to give the people that are listening? Clearly, you give bad advice.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

That's why I did a second one under Um Yeah, I mean, we're words of wisdom. Oh, that's tough. Uh I don't know. Um I'll say this. I I and I've said this before um to a couple of my friends, and one of one of my friends, his wife, who is a uh a prolific writer and and blogger and stuff, took it and kind of turned it into something else, which was really cool. But um, I'm pretty I I I I always believe that everyone has a superpower. You know, you just kind of try and find what it what it is. Um, you know, I've always said that mine is the ability to kind of recover quickly. I can I can go out and uh uh on a physical standpoint do a really hard effort and be fresh the next day, kind of a thing. It's it's it's just something that I've always been able to do. And I think that's why that 10-minute power nap during Indiana Trail is uh has um really turned on in terms of me understanding like I can take 10 minutes and and really turn things around. But um, I really do think that everyone has kind of that superpower and and and what my friend's wife kind of uh figured out for me was if you surround yourself with the right people and with the right tools, you can embrace what that superpower is to do the things that that you want to do. And so um whether that's ultras or you know, uh things like that for me, I can recover quickly, but if I don't have the people there to support me in recovering while I'm doing these races, then I'm not gonna finish. Um, and and and everything like that. Uh, if I don't have the resources to train for it and and everything, then it's not gonna happen. And so um everyone has that superpower, but but figuring out how to supplement it with the things that maybe you don't have, especially by using the resources or the the human resources you have around you, like the people, um, that's a huge thing. I I think, especially for this world. And part of why I I transitioned to ultras instead of Iron Man's was Iron Man's were turning into an individual sport for me.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Yeah. Um I would agree with that for sure.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Um just as a whole. Yeah. And and the ultra-running community is just the exact opposite of that. You know, you don't get people angry at volunteers at aid stations because they didn't hand them the right bottle and stuff like you do at the Iron Man community anymore. Um at the ultra uh ultra community, you have people who are actively apologizing to volunteers for the things that they're saying to them and doing to them.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Um I'm so sorry I stink as you're adjusting my pack for me.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

I I'm sorry about the state of my feet. Can you pop this blister for me? Um uh and so uh and and I I don't think this just stays in uh in the uh the ultra-endurance world. I think everyone has a superpower that can go past that and and embracing it with the people that are around you is is key. Um, you know, running can be very, very lonely and and individual at times, but um you you only get to have those moments of solitude that are really good for things like self-reflection and you know, and everything like that. You only get that if you have uh the support around you to be able to get to that point. So um that's kind of the words of wisdom. Bad advice, I have plenty of that. Um you know, Oreos, uh Swiss rolls, Mike and Ike's out on the course. Those are all great things to eat. Uh if you want some bad advice. Yeah, Mountain Dew. Oh my gosh. I I I I always joke before races, I uh I look like some teenager that's going on a video game bender for the weekend at the grocery store because I'm picking up Swiss rolls and bags of chips and pop and uh all this candy and everything like that. I I look like I'm about to have a hardcore weekend of video gaming, but I'm actually going out to run 100 miles or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Yeah, not as an endurance athlete. Actually, that's probably what endurance athlete diet looked like at a race. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Yeah. Well, it's been so fun catching up with you and hearing about your life story of running. I really, really appreciate you being on the show.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

Yeah. Well, thank you again for remembering me. I mean, it was uh almost what eight months after after we met each other that you that you were able to contact me and say, hey, were you still interested in talking? kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

So I wanted to give you time to finish all your disasters.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

There you go. So and then hopefully I see you at Huron again if you're if you're there and and I'm crewing.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Absolutely. I look forward to that. Thanks again, Andy.

SPEAKER_02 58:29

All right, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Yeah, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

All right, thank you so much for listening to that episode. I bet you had as many laughs as we did. We had a few more off air. Uh Andy's a great guy. Um, so if you have heard of any of those races and you want to go out and uh cheer anybody on, and especially Andy or I, we would greatly appreciate that too. Uh remember to give me five stars, follow me on all the socials, uh, reach out to me if you'd like to be on the podcast. I do have some room for that for sure. And uh thanks again. We'll talk soon.