S4 Ep 8 Defying The Doctor’s Orders featuring Lionel Pailloncy

A surgeon once told Lionel Pailloncy to give up running after back surgery. Years later, he’s not only running again, he’s finished the original six World Marathon Majors and just took 20 minutes off his marathon PR in Tokyo. From Paris to Boston and beyond, Lionel’s story isn’t about being the fastest, it’s about refusing to let one diagnosis or one hard year define what’s possible. 

We talk about the real mechanics of a comeback: physiotherapy, respecting your body in everyday movements, and rebuilding confidence one small step at a time. Lionel shares how he went from park runs to a 10K, then a half marathon, then his first Paris Marathon and why each race feels like its own emotional “cathedral.” We also get into the mental side of endurance, including the pressure of Strava metrics, the unpredictability of race day, and the moment he pivots away from chasing numbers toward gratitude and meaning. 

If you love practical running conversations, you’ll enjoy the details too: vegan fueling while traveling, A-B testing gels, hydration habits, gear choices down to socks and seams, and the packing ritual that calms the mind before the gun goes off. Lionel also shares what might be the wildest week ever, defending his PhD viva in Paris and immediately flying to Boston to run again. 

If this story gives you a spark, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a five-star review. What part of your own journey needs a little more courage right now?

coaching highlights

You can reach out to us at:

https://coffeycrewcoaching.com
email: Carla@coffeycrewcoaching.com
FB @ Over the Next Hill Fitness Group
IG  @coffeycrewcoaching.com

and Buy Me a Coffee
https://www.buymeacoffee.com/Carlau

https://hydra-patch.com/discount/OTNH20

https://hydra-patch.com/discount/OTNHBOGO?redirect=%2Fproducts%2Fhydrapatch%C2%AE

https://rnwy.life code: OTNH15

https://jambar.com code: CARLA20

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, and welcome back to Over the Next Tale Fitness Podcast. I'm Carla Coffey, your coach and host for today's program. I want to thank those of you who have been sharing and rating the program. The ratings helped me climb

Welcome And Quick Requests

SPEAKER_01 0:15

the podcast ladder, so to speak. And some of you haven't. So if you should go on there and just give me five stars, I know it takes a minute, but I really appreciate that. And share it with a friend. And if you know someone who needs to have their story told that might be so encouraging for others to hear, please reach out to me, Carla at coffeecrewcoaching.com, and we'll get you on the podcast. It's super fun, super easy. It'll be a good time. I want to uh thank those of you who have bought me coffee again. I appreciate that. Carol being one. And Jana bought me coffee again. So I appreciate that very much. And I don't have my coffee here to show off today, darn it. But thank you again. So today, um all the way across the pond to Paris, I'll be talking to Lionel Payonci. Hopefully, I got the pronunciation right. I really tried hard after learning I did it wrong. Um but

Lionel’s Path To Paris

SPEAKER_01 1:21

oh my goodness, we had a good time, such a wonderful time listening to his story. You guys are really gonna uh love it, and you're gonna learn so much about how strong he is as uh not only a runner. Uh he had a 20-minute PR, but um just some hardship that he came over uh just to be able to run. So uh enjoy and please share it with someone else. Welcome to the show, Lionel. It's so great to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Thank you, Carla, for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

My pleasure. So um tell the audience where you're from and how you started running or what your you know, what got you interested in running.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

All right. Uh so it's a funny story because it's not a straight road, it's not flat, like running experiences. I was actually born in France in Burgundy, uh, very famous for its wine, but I actually didn't grow up there. I spent my childhood in different places in continental France, but I moved very early age at six to the Caribbeans uh with my parents. They wanted to go to Canada, it didn't work, so we went to an island where I stayed for 12 years. Then I at 18 I moved back to France, France and Paris, um, where I came to study, and I'm still there today. Despite um uh traveling around the world, I had the chance to spend one year in Boston. That was 10 years ago. Uh time flies, and I'm back in Paris, and um I'm a happy traveler. I consider myself more European than French, and um um just before answering your question about running, I'm a people person. I realized that during COVID uh I had a lot of pleasure facing people, listening to them, describing their stories. And that's actually how I discovered

Back Surgery And The Seed

SPEAKER_00 3:29

that I love running because I thought I hated running until I saw a cousin of mine uh depend uh defending all of his energy to achieve a marathon. And by accident I ran into him the day he moved to Paris to do that, and that gave me so much energy, so I consider that day um basically a second day I was born. That's how I think, yeah, I think that's how the connection started with running, and um it's all about context, right? Um and the me at that period, the me, the me, the Lionel I was at that time, was a bit more chubby, uh not into sports, uh not happy with things I were doing I was doing in life. That's fine, that happens, it was a chapter. Um but then um I had like some health issues, and for some reasons uh it had to happen. I had a back surgery due to a slip disc. And after that surgery, the surgeon told uh the 28-year-old Lionel uh that I should give up running. And at that time I hated sports, and running was not even an option. So I was like, Yeah, sure, whatever, you tell me that, but you know what, I don't care. It turned out I think he just planted a seed because um when people tell you you cannot do it, maybe that's a very French conception of things in life, but when people tell you you cannot do it, you kind of want to do it, do it anyway. Um, so yes, this came first, then uh with this little bit frustration sleeping. Uh happened to witness my cousin uh Laurent who came to Paris for Martin, and I thought, what is this energy? What is going on? It was basically the happiest day uh in this city where I lived for so many years. And that's how I discovered running. And for me it was all about an experience. Um then since I was very concerned about my health and my back after the surgery, uh my cousin told me, you know what, science evolves and it evolved. You should, if you think you want to run, you should give it a try. And I was like, no, no, my doctor told me not to, but like, but go again. It's been a few years now. Give it a try, trust me. And trust is part of the running journey. So I did, and with medical advice, I was uh given uh uh an opportunity to run, and that day was another day I was born. I I was born a few times, I would say that. Uh, when people tell you after you know uh uh removing a part of your spine and say you cannot run, and a few years later they tell you, yes, you can. It's like growing wings, you know. So I was just like, oh my god, the sky is the limit. So we're not talking about fast running here. Uh and as of today, I'm 45 and I'm not a fast runner, and it's just me versus myself. So it's all about finding pleasure where it is. And as I stated, this is a very long answer for your question. This is not a flat road, this is not a straight line, and I like to say it this way. Um, if you're a book person, you don't buy a book because nothing happens or because it's boring. You buy a book because you want the main characters, you go places and the things to happen, and to explore valleys and despair and sensation and to mirror all of that. It's like a disco bowl shining in many directions. And that's how I see my journey. So today is uh is a very funny day for us to talk because Carla, I was just out for like six hours down the street. I live in Paris, and today was the Paris Marathon, and I was there cheering since 10

Paris Marathon Cheering And Joy

SPEAKER_00 7:47

a.m. until 4 p.m. Um, 10 friends, uh different pace, but for me, it was just about capturing their joy in their eyes. And of course, these people, but also all the other strangers I had no idea, and just like to keep giving them the good vibes, uh, because this is not just a run. A routine is a celebration.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah, that's what an incredible journey you're having, though, to be told not to run because of having that uh back surgery and went, well, I think I'm gonna try it anyways. That's just incredible because so many people would have said, nope, he said no, I can't do it. And you were defied those odds. What was that like? Was there um did you have pain or was it totally gone? Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

I'm uh um this kind of, you know, there there are many varieties of people out there in the world, right? And there is this kind of people where if the doctor tells you, believe me, you have to do that, I would absorb 100% of that speech and practice it like it's perfect pitch. Um maybe too much. And that's also where I had to reflect because the prediction given by that uh surgeon at that time was very generic. And honestly, even if and with due respect, I think it was like what, 200 pounds, maybe three times my age. And uh I felt like it was not a speech given with uh eye-to-eye uh conversation. It was just like very generic. This is what you should do, and it was all about using the right models, like you should, you could, you would. Um yeah, actually I'm the one behind the steering uh wheel. And um when I decided to go with uh serious care, I did some tests, you know, some um x-rays or CAT scan later on uh after the surgery, and everything went well because for so many years I did everything I had to. I went to the physiotherapy, I learned I learned to do things very differently uh from you know brushing your teeth or when you do your bed. You should not pretend your back does not exist. You have to respect that body and do things with care. You have to practice self-care. And I think that was the price to pay. Now I still salute my body whenever I'm able to do those fantastic runs, whether they're short or long. I'm like, okay, today I want you, my niece, to be with me because I feel like I need to send you good vibes. Uh for some people it could be the Achilles, for some people it could be else things, uh other things. That's that's fine, that's fine. But um uh it's all about, you know, it's a journey, and I'm very appreciative about what I can do today. Um I told you a few years ago I was living in Boston, I was studying in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and one day I was having one of those tough uh student life, uh a tough day. And I went to my favorite restaurant and it was full. So they told me, You we can serve food to you at the bar, and the bar was just facing the kitchen, fine. And the waiter had such like um non-expression face, but he was doing his job, and there is this tattoo on his on his forearm, and I was like, What is that? It I I think I recognized through the the um the font was like um typewriter style, and it was something in French. I was like, what is that? And his tattoo was in French, and it said, Cette vie est temporaire, this life is temporary. And he saw my face and was like, Yep, I know I know faces like yours. I see them every day. You know what? Enjoy your meal. Tomorrow will be a different day. Like my tattoo said, right now you feel what you feel, but tomorrow, you know, it would be a different experience. Trust me on that. Appreciate the moment. When they're when it's tough, it's tough. When it's pleasant, it's pleasant, and sometimes you don't know, and that's fine. And I really, really love that way of thinking. That you know, you have to cherish every single moment because it belongs to you, but it can be gone in a minute, if not shorter than that. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Wow. Wow, you've had some really like life-altering conversations with people, you know, your cousin, the doc, the surgeon, this guy. That's a yeah, wow. So I see on your jacket it says Tokyo Marathon 2026. So you've run all of the majors, well, the six, right? Or did you have you done all nine?

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Uh no, the nine, no, because they just added those. They just I okay. They they I did the six. I I did I did uh Tokyo a month and a half ago. I'm actually you're actually interviewing the luckiest bastard on uh earth.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah, how so?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Pardon my French. Um because I last year was a very, very difficult year for me in for for different reasons, but okay. It's like when you drive, you can look in the mirror, but it's in the back, it's it's no longer here. And last year was a tough year for me, and this is my year. This is my year, so I'm so lucky. Uh

From Doctor’s Rules To Self-Care

SPEAKER_00 13:20

I run Tokyo, and next week, same time, I will be in Boston.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Uh, because I I got so lucky to get a bib to run Boston again. So I will be I will be the biggest smile on the road between Hopkinton and Boston. So the 130 is the Boston Martin. And I was able as well um to secure a beep for Sydney at the end of August. So I'm running three majors and those three super fancy ones. So wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

So will um Sydney be number seven for you? Okay, all right. So you've run so back in the day there was only six. It's just now where there's seven, eight, nine, and I think they're just shooting for a tenth. Um so just to have run those six is amazing to me. That's you know, that's my goal, one of my goals. I've just got the one, as you can see. Um I ran Boston.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

That's I do it immediately, yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, what nine years ago, so a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

But it felt like yesterday, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

It yes, yes. Time just flies. But um, so uh I'm assuming that you did other races prior to the majors, right? You didn't just get with your cousin and go right for a marathon, did you? Or did you?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Um I went uh step by step. I really applied his technique of baby steps, uh, and I started with the 10K. Um well, r running in my neighborhood in the park, I felt like this was not for me, but I follow him. I I was always in the listening uh phenomenon with him of absorbing the the advice, uh, but not just for the words it was at that time. It was just like take the words right now, but sit on it and wait for the day before the race, this little race, and then the days after. And indeed it's a curve. You have like some anxiety before you think it's anxiety, but it's just poorly wrapped excitement. Then you have that race, which is like an overwhelming moment of so many emotions. Then you're like having your mini baby blues, if we can call it this way, uh, when those little events are done. And of course, you have those uh tiny uh pieces, the metals that are just like tokens of joy. And uh, this is just fantastic. So I did my baby steps with 10k and then uh a bit more than half. And the day I did a half, I thought, wow, I reached my Himalaya in life. And my cousin told me on the phone, no, no, of course not. You did that, you will do a marathon. He was right. Six months after I ran my first marathon here in Paris, that was eight years ago this week. Um it feels like it was yesterday, and on that day, oh, it was just like um if you like the novels, like uh um those adventure books, um for me, Martin was just like reading the best adventure book because even if you you're just running, you're in concrete, and you go from A to B or through many streets, uh still a lot is going on in the head. And I love that journey because that of course we say it's an excitement, and you're like in the valley of despair, but for me, for me was more than that. Um since I absorb a lot of information and I and I was so happy to entertain and and and to engage with the the people along the road, you see a lot of faces, you hear a lot of voices, and at the end, the brain is just like it doesn't know what to do with all of that. And I got tricked because at some point I heard voices of people who no longer live on this, uh unfortunately are no longer here, but I'm pretty sure I heard the same voices, but I I heard them, and it was like, oh, somebody has the same voice of my uncle, my mom, of my friends, and and and it was just like so warm. And same for the faces, you see familiar faces through all of those strangers along the road. Of course, you see so many faces. Uh so the brain is confused through the fatigue and the imagination process. Uh, so it's not nothing. Uh, at the end of the marathon, you have all of these emotions you don't know how to channel. And uh I was like, oh I found like one image that expresses that first marathon the best possible way. For me, it's like picture yourself walking into the desert for long days, which are the long hours before the finish line, and at the end you're entering something, and that thing is like a mind cathedral where everything is about being simple, as light, as appreciation, as um tenderness, and and yes, you deal with all that, and for me, each race is a very one and unique cathedral. And as of today, I've been through seven cathedrals, so aka I run seven marathons. Uh and I stopped counting the you know the training logs and

The Six Majors And A Tough Year

SPEAKER_00 18:48

and the counter. Um last year was a tough year for me. Uh, but through pain, something new emerged out of me. I moved away from the number person to the latter person. I was down and a bit uh depressed by using Strava for metrics for nothing, records or metal or uh all those digits that usually kept me uh willing for to do more and more and more. I could not do more and more that time. So I tilted away from those numbers and pivoted for appreciation of words, uh moving away from figures, and just enjoying more, you know, the the ability rather than anything else. So um even in this difficult journey, I was happy to find somehow a bit of light around me, and I'm grateful for things that happen, whether they're good or sometimes negative, because they raise values out of you. And running, um, yes, I can say it, running saved me. Uh and I told you I was born more than once. Uh yes, there are moments like that, and and running can give that to you. Um and and I can only encourage people to try and see if they're not runners. Who knows? Maybe one day they will, and maybe they won't. But that's fine. Uh uh, we may dislike you know a dish because one day the day we tried it, maybe everything around was a terrible experience and it was not meant to happen. And possibly with just one thing that changed in the background, it would be a complete different story. I think it's the same for running. Um you know, if you're not wearing the right shoes a few days before practice session, then for sure your body is not ready to appreciate. But yeah, uh it's all about giving you a try and and do it thing doing that with self-love.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Yeah, wow. Yeah, that's um that's pretty incredible that you've only run seven marathons and six of them have been majors. Wow. That's so how did you get introduced to the major marathons? Because as I had mentioned before we started recording, um, when I first started running in 2014, I didn't even know what a marathon was, let alone the Boston marathon at that time. And I mean, that's been around for a long time. And so people were, you know, you get in that circle of people talking about different races. And so I'm like, oh well, yeah, I want to try that, you know. So how did you just like that's all you've done? How did you only hear about that?

SPEAKER_00 21:41

I would say it's uh friends, family, and strangers. Funny story. So uh now that you know, uh at age 28, I had my back surgery, and I felt like the world was not a place for me to go and be happy because it was not tolerable. For me to be a runner, I realized I could. And that grew on me. And that gave me hope to do more and more. We're in 2018, and at the day of my first marathon, I was actually a consultant in investment banking for a temporary mission of nine months, I think. And my client at that time was also running the marathon. And if so, the Lionel growing, uh, as we worked together, trained together, and we did the race together, he saw that, hmm, you're someone able, and you actually don't know that, but you love challenges. And I was like, Me, a challenge person? And I was like, I totally see why you're saying that, and I cannot deny it. I would have never guessed I would be a challenge, you know, a person who loves challenges. Um, so when it was time to finish my temporary contract with the with the consulting firm with this client, they gave me, as a thank you gift, the team I work with for almost a year, they gave me a voucher to do an iron, uh half iron man the next year. And I was like, Are you crazy? And they say, We know you are someone of challenge, so this is your next challenge. And they knew that cycling is not my favorite cup of tea, but okay, swimming is definitely not but fine, challenge accepted, running, yeah, we'll we know you'll do the job. And I was like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. And now you need the subtitles for how why I say oh my god so many times. So I'm taking you back to the part where I told you I lived in an island, and at that time I was not able to swim. For some sad reasons, uh, we had events in the family where members drone, and even living in the island, friends drone, and we were naturally afraid of water. But my parents uh were very protective of their kids, right? And whenever we would go out on the beach, they would say, No, just be careful, be careful. And as a kid, you absorb that, and you of course we felt the pain of losing friends and family. Um so it was when I was 20, I decided secretly to learn to swim and not tell everyone. And I did. And the day I turned 20, I told my family, I have to tell you a secret. And they were like, Wait, what? Yes, I learned swimming, and they were so happy for me because I say, Wow, you actually refused that weight on your shoulder, it was not for you to carry. And we're brave because you did that. You you went as far as you could. I wish I I could have a

Baby Steps To First Marathon

SPEAKER_00 24:59

recording of me entering the swimming pool for the very first time. So picture a 20-year-old male entering a public pool and screaming like a teenage kid in Disneyland in a ride. That would be me. Yeah. So uh that was actually a challenge I forgot in the past, but okay, first swimming, then running, and then now I have to do the Iron Man. Oh my goodness, what are they doing with me? And I felt like this train of thought, this train of sport thought is taking me wild places. I'm actually enjoying the journey. So um I actually documented that year. I had a journal, it was a website in French called uh I prepare the triathlon, and I did like a small and an Olympic one and then the Half Iron Man. I loved it. Uh, but it was I loved it. And and it was just like a bit too much because practicing for a triathlon is very difficult in terms of social life. You have to train every day, and you better make sure that your friends and the loved ones are into triathlon, otherwise, it's not going to be very easy to see people and also share um enjoyment time. So after the triathlon, which I did and I'm very happy with, I realized maybe I should just slow my horses and just enjoy running. And so my family saw, okay, you did the barathon, then you did Iron Man. Uh we would actually, uh they gave me like a charade for my birthday, and it was like um a voucher to go to Berlin as my first major. And I was like, oh, that's incredible. Um, unfortunately, we had the COVID, so this was uh on hold for one and then two years. Uh the second year was me not being ready, but then that's it. Uh, we started that journey, and as soon as I got that email from Abbott that say, You got your first star, I was like, I want more. I want more. I want more. They have people, you have people chocolate addict, I'm like a marathon addict.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

And

Numbers Versus Gratitude In Running

SPEAKER_01 27:10

same.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Shut up and take my money. You know, the RC from uh Futurama that say that. It's uh I'm exactly like that. Um no, I would say that I'm blessed of being able to run the majors. Uh I don't we don't have uh kids with with my partner, so all of my money is going into training and and gears for running and and and um it's it's determination that takes me there. And um and it's always about people. It's the people that you meet, not just on a race day, but also the people you mut meet, for instance, at the airport, you see, oh, they have the same behavior as me. Maybe they're waiting for the same train as me and or plane, and oh, they have the same backpack. Oh, we're gonna definitely going to run together. And then you meet people who you don't know yet are going to become your best friends. And and and I did meet amazing people. I think I met my brother finally. It was time I met my brother, it was in the um Paris Airport for Chicago. We definitely have different parents, but he's my brother. I met my twin sister in Boston at the at the at the Boston airport. Uh yes, and I'm just extending my family every time. Uh it's not growing fast, but yes, now uh I have a lot more people to think of when it's Christmas time, when it's holiday season. Yes, they are family.

unknown 28:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Yeah, that's great. That's funny you say that about um noticing what like what people are wearing and wondering, well, I bet they're going in the same race. I was on a flight, I don't remember where I was going, but I had um a very short layover. Uh, and where they dropped me, they changed the um boarding from my next flight. And it was like boarding as soon as they dropped me off. And so I was running through the airport, and there was another guy running through the airport too, and and uh he had like some of the same running things on his backpack that I had on mine. I'm like, he's going to the race too. And sure enough, we both got on the same plane. We were just running right to get on. And and I said, Are you running whatever race we were going to? He said, Yeah, you. And so it was interesting that you say that, that you see these people and go, I bet that's a runner. And sure enough, we were running. We got our our warm-up through the airport.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

We have our we have our own code to identify first. I think we start with the shoes. And then we we have the more, you know, more tips and tricks. We have that sixth sense non-runners will never get. Then they don't understand those jokes, but yeah, we do. And that's that's that's that's fun.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

What was it like for you um as you started training for the different distances, um, learning how to fuel and hydrate? Was that easy

How He Entered The Majors

SPEAKER_01 30:10

did that come easy for you, or did you struggle with anything?

SPEAKER_00 30:14

I struggle a lot. It's just in Tokyo that I did my first sub-4 marathon. Uh, before that, uh again, not a slow runner, me versus myself. Um yes, hydratation and and food, it's it's all about finding the right things for you, the balance. Um for me, I would say um the first challenge is when I'm traveling, I have to make sure I can eat everything I can because I follow the vegan diet since 2013. I was uh vegetarian since the 90s. Um when you travel the world, I know um you can go places where you just face uh hunger. Um and now it's a lot easier in in the 21st century with the technology we have, uh, we can find places uh for everything we need. The struggle we knew um 20, 30 years ago when traveling, if you wanted something very specific, you would go and have to talk to the people and and discuss and make sure you find your way. Right now it's just so easy. Is it too easy, I wonder? Maybe it is. Uh, but nevertheless, um it is not a problem for me anymore. Um dehydratation, the the gels, the food. Um I found my balance. Um so um after our wonderful conversation, my favorite activity of the year is going to follow, which is packing for marathon. I have my backpack behind me and I have to put everything ready for Boston. And there is this list. Oh my god, I I do have like it's the it's a US letter form with like six columns of everything from uh D minus two to uh the morning of waking up for the race until you know the last moment of the race. And and that was made with my bros and sisters of running. And of course, we have you know everything we need. So, of course, the the body energy, what you need to drink and and to eat, and also what you wear, the gels, the creams, the the band eight, and this list is is is very long, but now I found it extremely funny because it's a ritual. And when I say ritual, I mean it. I'm going to put my favorite music on. I think today is going to be like an ABBA song, uh, because it's very joyful. And uh yeah, I just follow my very own protocol.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Wow, it sounds like you have it all dialed in, though. You've you've worked hard at that. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

It's it's there's a lot of fun behind it. Uh, and there's a lot of satisfaction in the preparation because um the race is basically the end of it. The race is the celebration that comes, it's like the last minute of a good movie, the beginning of the credit, which is you know, it's happening. And actually, it you did all the job, you logged those training hours. Maybe you didn't, and and that's also part of the journey. Uh, some runners don't do the perfect training and they fail for some silly reasons, if they can name them. And some people who don't train exactly how they want, they perform like magic. I envy them. And no matter how severe with yourself you are, marathon is unpredictable, right? You don't know, but there are so many things, so many variables, and your body, again, it's it's a very large space to explore. And on a race day, you think, you think a lot. And I told uh it was my uh head of human resources, I told this week in my company. Uh we talk about marathon, and I told her, I still don't know on a race day what is the most challenged part of the body? Is it the muscles or the brain? I really don't know. I don't I don't think I know. I don't have the answer. With seven marathons logged, I don't know. Um so

Ironman Gift And Learning To Swim

SPEAKER_00 34:30

sometimes the brain can you know be weak, sometimes the muscles are weak. It's all about you know the balance. Uh of course, we know the two nights before the marathons are key, food, the carbs loading, but also I would say quality time. Uh making sure you do things you love, watching things you appreciate. Uh uh, I would not eat, I've been down this road. Don't do anything new before marathon. That was my brilliant mistakes. I did all the mistakes. It was just like uh I'm not gonna pronounce the word, but it was a bad show. It was a very bad one, and um yeah, now I know it's all about respecting what's good, uh, but also you know what provides good sensation. I said I'm going to put music I like, and this this is going to happen for the entire week. Just things I love. Uh finish books, that's also a source of um an infinity and infinite satisfaction for me. Um and um there's something else happening in my life this week, which is going to make this week the most memorable uh week in my entire life. It I have no point of comparison. So let me bring you a bit of context. During COVID in 2020, um I was working with clients in consulting, and there is this job hunter that wants to talk to me because he may have a position for me with a great client. Okay, I'm listening, let me talk to that great client of yours. Uh and as I introduce myself, I keep mentioning my experience in Boston when I did my MBA and I met amazing people. I found that a nonprofit and I did this and I did that. And all they said was like, you keep talking to me about the past. Uh yeah, isn't it what an interview is about? You know? Uh and he was right, actually. He wanted me to talk more about bringing maybe questions or maybe reflecting on the future. But he was very um sad and firm when I mentioned my MBA, which was a few years before, and told me, I don't want to hear about your past. And that that that hurted me a bit. And as we were in COVID, I couldn't go places. I was like, hmm, okay, um, we're lockdown. Uh I keep doing like you know, online MOOC sessions where you learn for uh a few weeks uh how to master a new skill. And I did that, I did that a lot. In the first two or three lockdowns, I did six classes on different topics. I was going all places from uh craft to Excel to uh project management. It was just going all the places, and I have to admit, it was right. It was not showing a clear path, and I took time into consideration, and from this uh unpleasant comment he made, something else came out. I was like, hmm, okay, I'm gonna do something useful for me. I will go back to my studies. So for the third time, uh, I did uh uh my master's 20 years ago, a second master's and my MBA 10 years ago. And this week, in 2026, I will have my PhD Viva uh this Friday. Uh so in five days, I will defend my uh my PhD in the parish university, uh, which I've been working for almost uh yeah, five years and a half, almost six years. And it's happening on Friday. After the Viva, I will go back home, take my bag, commute to the airport, take the first plane to Boston. It's all booked, it's all planned. As soon as I land in Boston, I have to take a taxi to go drop my bag at the hotel, go to the expo to pick up my bib, and then I meet my friends for a drink because that's how I have to appreciate life. This is it's such an exciting week. And as I say, uh, you know, when you do a race, the race is actually the final point of that sentence. I think I'm about to start my favorite sentence.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

That sounds so incredible. Wow, you are the luckiest person this year. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

This this is an incredible year, and I'm very appreciative uh

Marathon People Become Family

SPEAKER_00 39:00

of everything I can do. Um it's part of um I have to also tell you and and the audience a bit who I am. Um I I'm also a giver. I I like to help a lot, and uh my therapist thinks there may be something wrong behind it because I do it a lot. Picture it, I'm late, super late, I'm running somewhere. But then I would see someone in the street that don't know where they need to go. I will stop running and help them say, okay, where do you need to go? I don't know that place, but I will look for them. If not, I will take them there. That's my job in life. I don't care. I mean, it cannot be more important for me than a meet a uh a meeting. Uh of course, I will have respect as much as I can for every party, but if I see you know people being lost, I want to help them. Uh because living in Paris uh is a city where uh there is a lot of selfishness, people don't tend to help each other. It's a large city, so people usually tend to just focus on them. And especially in 2026, where we watch a screen, we are protected with from the audio world, we don't hear others. Um, how can we notice someone um not explicitly uh uh uh opening his or her hand for help? Uh for me it's important to do that. Uh so yes, again, coming to gratitude, I think that's that's a very deep appreciation I have for life because um even if 2025 was a difficult year, it can happen to be a difficult period for a lot of people. Uh I'm actually very grateful I can happen to be running all those amazing races. And uh in Tokyo, it was six weeks ago, one of those fabulous, fabulous days. I had a smile from one ear to the other all along the race. Uh, I did my personal best by 20 minutes faster than London. Um I had no aches whatsoever. It was just perfect. It was the happiest day on earth. And I at the end of the day, I was journaling and I was like, I really, really don't want this day to end. I loved March 1st, 2026. I loved that day so much. I really, really enjoyed it. And today, when I went to the marathon in Paris, uh, was shouting and cheering for strangers, saying, do it today. It's not tomorrow you're gonna run. Believe in yourself. Follow, follow the strain the advice from the stranger. Uh and then you they they make the names on the beep so small

Vegan Fueling And Travel Logistics

SPEAKER_00 41:56

that I feel like you know, I'm checking my mail in my mailbox, but I was like, go on, Paul Gabriel, and then yeah, and then you you cheer for them, and and and you get that back from the eye to the the back of your eye connection, which is as solid as a very strong fishing, fishing net, you know, that that's that rope. And they get that from you. And I was so happy when those who were walking, I I saw them going back on running. I was like, yes, you got this, you got this. And and and it and I solidly believe that when you visit a city as a runner, you see it's from its very best angle because everybody around you is happy for you, everybody is smiling and cheering. And and I think runners make this world a better place.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah, definitely. So let's back up a second. You said that you were 20 minutes faster in Tokyo than London. What did you do? I mean, if I'm a minute faster, I'm pretty excited. But you PR by 20 minutes. Tell us how that happened. What happened?

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Uh in the sequence of my majors, I did Berlin, London, so those two in Europe, then the three in the USA, uh, Chicago, Boston, and New York. Um, and London was my fastest, uh, for 20 minutes. Um and I could not break the four hours. I was uh uh getting help from a coach during the six majors training. We could not understand what went wrong. Uh then it's the day I met my twin sister in Boston. She told me funny story, and I love you, Crystal, if you hear me. And she told me, you have to run more. And I told her, No, my coach told me to run differently. And practice, you know, the fast and slow and those sequences, the fart leg and so on, all those techniques. But she told me, yeah, yes. But I think you have to run more kilometers. You have to get those miles in the log so you don't face the wall again. And we were supposed to run Tokyo together last year. Unfortunately, uh three days three weeks before our flight, uh I felt on black ice in my neighborhood going while I was going to meet her, and I finished at the hospital with the top of my arm aka or where it meets the L where it meets the sh the shoulder that was completely broken. I had to wear cast for six weeks, so no running, no nothing. It was a bit tragic and the beginning of a very sad, depressive period of my life. Um and I started to visit the bottom of the ocean in a way of talking. Figure of speech. And I went down, very down, and I went deep, very deep. And it was just me and myself. I was so happy because I could see my friends running, I could see my friend Crystal running, the Tokyo Martin. I was up all night to cheer her. It was the middle of the night, my neighbors probably did not understand what was going on, but I was cheering a runner from the other side of the world. And then at some point it was time for me to get back up and put those shoes on. And when it's time to put the running shoes on, the contact you have with the laces uh between your between your fingers, this fabric you touch. It is a ritual. And this ritual I really grateful again because many years ago they told me I could not run. And now they wanted to take my Tokyo experience away. But I'm going back and I will go in 2026, and I will run Tokyo 26,

Race Week Rituals And Mind Games

SPEAKER_00 46:08

and I'm going to be unstoppable. And I started to go run, and I started to run faster with more determination than ever in my running life. Yes, when it was time for me to board that plane for Tokyo in February, I knew something amazing would be about to happen. So no time for experiencing um anything risky in terms of spicy food, in terms of uh, oh, that's uh blue drink or yellow drink. No, no, no, no. Stick with water, stick with what you know, don't take any risk. You will experience uh the craziness of Japan after the race. Just be um as precise as you know you should. And I did follow it by the rule. And when it was race day, I woke up. We were in the hotel room on the 27th and last floor uh of our uh hotel building. I opened the window, and my feeling was it's happening today. I felt it. I felt like this is it. I'm going to shine today. And no matter what, I know about pain, I know about frustration, but this is me. I'm here now, I'm in Tokyo, Japan. I'm going to run the craziest run there is, and I'm so lucky to be. And and yes, it was it was just so so much joy now, and even now my cheeks are hurting because when I'm telling you that, I'm smiling at the same time, and and I wish people to have the chance and the joy to experience similar races. Um as I went down to the start line, I I met people I've met again in the city, and it the world is a small place, right? Uh so those friends for the day, uh they just like bring more energy to you. And uh again, I think uh I'll say that again. Yes, at our level, we make this a very appreciative society, uh making a good foundation for the world being a happy place.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Yeah, wow. So she got she helped you cut those 20 minutes. That is so incredible. That is that's a big that's a big jump. So during your training, so you had to deal with um learning to fuel and to hydrate with the proper things. Did you have any trouble with um finding the right shoe? Did you change shoes a lot? Do you have one now that you stick to and that's your go-to always? Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Um just before the shoe, in terms of gel, I had to do what I call A-B testing, right? Uh I would try uh in the same similar weeks um on similar runs, like if it's a morning, uh, this kind of gel and see which one works best. And I would log everything. So I do have like a very long Excel file. I think some runners out there may recognize uh the technique. Uh just to log what you like and appreciate. So you start to have your favorite drink, your favorite socks, and oh, oh my god, I am so this is so important for me. The shoes are one thing, but the socks, yes, I have my favorite socks, I have my favorite everything. And yeah, you better learn to wear them inside out, outside in, uh, because sometimes you know it's all about the little frictions that make a difference. Uh and um, and as for the shoe, yes, there is this brand uh made in Switzerland. I really like there is this model I like. Um I like it so much that I don't know the name of the model by heart. I would be a terrible ambassador. That's fine. I don't aspire to be one. Uh but but it's but it's great. I I I found what fits me. Uh I tried other brands, but they

PhD Viva Week And Boston Plan

SPEAKER_00 50:08

were not like exactly uh uh let's say uh it's like when Cid Nerella wears the the glass sleeper. Um luckily I'm not running with uh glass sleepers. That would be a terrible show. Um but um yeah I I I did my my experimentation, same for the shorts, uh the elastic, the the way you know they have uh they tend to do the the the the tend to merge the fabric. Uh so from the outside it looks pretty, but the the um the sewing is on the inside, and sometimes it's just wrong. For example, the size sticker, um we don't care if we see it because we runners, we basically don't we don't care that much. We wear bright and flashy neon colors. Uh just give us something that doesn't scratch, especially for the race. Same for the belt. Uh remove those tags, remove those those labels. So uh it's not rare, but sometimes I do sue so the the sewing will be on the outside, just on the little parts, uh, so it's it fits exactly. I'm not um I'm I'm a magician with uh those techniques, but I do things that I feel like they're just great and and and I think at the end they are.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Yeah, yeah. I I agree. Sometimes you just like a first thing I usually do is rip the tag off. If there's a tag, get that out of there. I don't want that uh scratching me. So yeah, totally agree with that. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you feel these the audience needs to know about you? Is there something I'm missing?

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Let's go with the what's next question. Because at 45 and checking the box of doing everything I wanted in terms of races, doing three majors this year, there's always the question about what's next, what's next. And um I will never forget how difficult some months in the past were. And it's not about a quest, about achieving more and more and more. Of course, achieving provides a lot of satisfaction. I'm just afraid at some point, and with age or with fatigue, I'm not able to run as fast and see numbers decreasing. Um a part of me wants to say to another part of me that it will be fine if that's the case. It will be fine if I don't run as much or as fast, as high as I want. And maybe this kind of message may be welcome in into the audience. Of course, we can always aim for progression, but as we are human, we also have to respect that body that is very fragile. And maybe respecting sometimes means uh to do what is necessary. And it's not because we are slow or we're not in the best coral or in the best wave of anything that it's wrong. Um this is a question also for myself. I'm I'm willing to explore when it will be time uh what to do with that. I I see friends being disappointed because they don't do the time they they hope for. Uh but they actually achieve amazing, amazing, amazing things. And they they miss the smile on the face of their friends and family. Uh so I think that's where the happiness is. And we should not forget that. It's all along the road.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's not about the times, you know, it's about enjoying the journey, not necessarily how fast you get there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Yeah. I'm actually glad that my sixth major was actually slow. I enjoyed it longer than the average

Tokyo PR And Coming Back From Injury

SPEAKER_00 54:14

runner.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Yeah, me too. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Well, we know you have um three majors coming up. Anything after that?

SPEAKER_00 54:27

No, I I want to turn the basement of our apartment. Uh we live in a in a in a person building where we have a tiny basement. I want to turn that basement into a workshop to start working on woodwork because I would like to make my own, my very own frames for my medals. This way it will be one way for me to continue the discussions I have with them and to make something delicate out of my hands for something I achieve with my foot.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, I like that. Thank you. Yeah. Well, Lionel, I did I say it right this time. I know I didn't introduce you properly. I apologize for that. Lionel, is that better? Thank you. I have thoroughly enjoyed talking to you today. Um, we're excited to see I follow you on uh Facebook to see more of your running journey. And maybe we'll get to talk to you again.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

I look forward to having those opportunities and thank you so much for reaching out to me. I was very pleased when I saw your first message. So um, if anyone hear this message and and at some point had a smile on their face, then I would be happy.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

I'm sure many of them do. Yes. Thank you so much for being here, and we'll look forward to uh talking to you again soon.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Thank you. Thank you so much, Carla.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Yeah, bye-bye. Hey, all right. Wasn't that the best? Didn't you guys just not love his uh commentary on all the things he's done? Just incredible to run all those majors. So thanks again. Uh and as always, please share this, rate it five stars. Um, and I really would love to share your story on the podcast. Um, we had such a good time, and you will too. Uh, you can follow me on the socials. I'm on Facebook, uh, not as much as usual, but I'm on there. You can reach out to me, Carla at coffeecrew coaching.com. If uh you have any coaching needs, I'd be happy to fit you in virtually. And yeah, so that's it. See you next time.