Episode 147: US Religious Decline: Is America Becoming Like Europe? Political Power, Women's Distrust in American Democracy, and Wicked's Good vs. Evil

Faith and Exceptionalism (03:21)

The US is becoming less religious, but Matt and Shawn debate if this signals secular decline or a unique American shift. Shifting Faith: Matt argues the decline of mainline Protestantism is due to its alignment with politics. He notes the growth of the Latter-day Saint Church and other faiths as people seek "pure religion," suggesting an "American exceptionalism" where religious freedom fosters a marketplace of faith. Awakening: Shawn challenges this, longing for the widespread "Great Awakening" revivals of the past, though Matt highlights current growth within the Church as a type of revival.

The Morality of Political Power Plays (15:07)

The hosts discuss Congressman Jesús "Chuy" García's maneuver to secure his staffer, Patty García, a seat by announcing his retirement after the filing deadline, effectively eliminating a primary election. Noblesse Oblige: Shawn calls the tactic immoral, motivated by arrogance or self-interest, invoking the concept of "Noblesse Oblige"—the privileged acting for the "less blessed." Kingmaker: Matt agrees the move is unethical but admits he'd be tempted by the "kingmaker" role, reflecting a common distrust in voters' judgment among the political elite.

Distrust and Discontent (25:39)

A Gallup poll shows extreme dissatisfaction with US democracy, especially among women aged 18 to 44, 40% of whom would move abroad—a fourfold increase since 2014.

The Problem: Matt argues this level of distrust risks undermining the divinely inspired US Constitution and suggests it is linked to policies from the last decade, such as those impacting women's healthcare access, which disproportionately affect their liberty. The Cause: Shawn believes the discontent is rooted in social media's self-esteem pressures and political "bamboozling," rather than actual legal disparity. Matt counters that a platform addressing this widespread unhappiness is crucial for future politicians.

Good, Evil, and Fictional Franchises (38:22)

Matt and Shawn analyze shared themes in Stranger Things and Wicked.

Becoming Good: Matt links this to the gospel principle of being "born again," arguing that true goodness is a transformation of the heart, not just the sum of one's actions. He uses a convert's powerful baptism story to illustrate the contrast between life's "bitter" cup and the "sweet" love of God. Representation: Matt praises the character Susie from Stranger Things as the best fictional portrayal of a Latter-day Saint in media.

Chapters
00:00 Friendship and Loyalty in Adversity
02:57 The Decline of Religion in America
05:45 Awakening and Spiritual Growth
08:38 American Exceptionalism and Religious Freedom
11:46 Political Morality and Ethics
14:34 Dissatisfaction with Democracy
17:34 The Nature of Good and Evil in Fiction
20:22 Cultural Reflections

Transcript

Matt (00:02.264)
Hey everybody and welcome to the Latter Day Lens. I'm your host Matt and with me as always, he has never ever let me down. It is Sean with me today, with me every single time. Sean, this is almost three years we've been doing this almost and you've never ever let me down. You're like a friend, true blue, true and through.

Shawn (00:19.729)
Yeah, yeah.

Meh.

when we're in the trenches, you know, we were in the trenches together in Ukraine in the nineties. That was post communism. you know, there were multiple times when you were in a snowy, scary situation and you'd be walking up an Iceland, the wisdom that you had about falling in the snow. was so funny, man. Like you'd be, well, I was walking behind you, we're companions and you're walking up this snowy bank and I saw you slip. And it was the weirdest technique that you had to fall. You just like,

Matt (00:44.238)
the

Shawn (00:56.957)
through your whole body so that you landed on your back. So one minute I'm looking at your backside, the next second you slip and I'm looking at you laying staring at me and I'm like, what are you doing? And your answer was.

Matt (01:08.446)
You gotta be safe when you fall, Sean. gotta... Right, you clearly... My dad was a football coach. So from the time I was four years old, I was taught, here's the ball, you hold onto the ball when you fall, here's how you fall so you don't lose the ball. And yeah, you gotta wrap up the ball so that you don't lose it when you fall. But also it helps you don't break arms or anything like that. So yeah, I'm...

Shawn (01:10.429)
Because you won't break your wrists, right?

Shawn (01:27.794)
Nice.

Matt (01:34.936)
This is just a natural reflex. If I'm going down and bring those arms in, turn to the back, cause that's a good place to fall. You don't hurt yourself quite so much.

Shawn (01:41.373)
It was just the funniest thing, because I'm kind of a little guy and you're kind of a big guy and all of a sudden the big guy is just on the ground just staring at me. Just laying there. But we're in those trenches together, man. So I can't abandon you now. Man, I was with you when you fell on your back on the ice. Yep.

Matt (01:46.97)
Hahaha

Yeah, you can't

Matt (01:55.938)
Yeah, and you'll always be there with me. And Sean, sometimes you should go watch a football game. Like big guys fall on the ground all the time in football games. If they're smart, yeah, watch them, Watch the people that fumble the football. They got their hands flailing all around, holding their ball out there. No, you bring it in tight.

Shawn (02:05.245)
Is that what they fall?

man, dude, I'm gonna go watch. I hope that's what they do.

Shawn (02:17.605)
What were you holding when you fell in Ukraine? The Book of Mormon.

Matt (02:21.198)
Yeah, it's holding. That's right. The scriptures more the most valuable rock you could hold onto the Book of Mormon. Yeah. Watch Bear Bach Bachmeyer. Is that his name? The BYU quarterback? Is his name Bear Bachmeyer? Yeah, whatever it is. Watch him. He knows how to he he grabs onto that ball like it's a baby and he both arms holding it tight to his chest like he knows how to fall grab that ball hold onto it tight.

Shawn (02:25.891)
Nice. Nice.

Shawn (02:32.807)
I watch him.

Buckmeyer, Bachmeyer, yeah, I think so.

Shawn (02:50.365)
So the moral of the whole non-sequitur story is I'm always here for you because we were in the trenches and you taught me how to fall. Yeah, really kind of, I don't know, we were all over the place.

Matt (02:58.197)
the

Yeah, there's no takeaway. Alright, we're not gonna open the mailbag this week because it's Thanksgiving and I just didn't feel like pulling anything out of the mailbag. Happy Thanksgiving everybody. Our our messages. It's Christmas season. Thanksgiving is past us. I hope that you remember the reason for the season.

Shawn (03:09.66)
Okay, good.

Shawn (03:21.915)
Now let's talk about how America is becoming less religious and faithful to God.

Matt (03:26.924)
Yes, Americans have become less religious over time. This change puts the United States in an unusual position compared to other countries. I have a link to this in the show notes. So if you look at most countries in the world, they fit into one of four categories. There's either a Christian nation where most people are Christian and many people in the country are religious, or there's a lot of religious people in the country and they tend to follow another religion, often Islam, or

they have not a lot of religious people, but they're still majority Christian nation, or there's people who don't identify with any religion at all with very few religious people. In the United States, we're interesting because Americans, a lot of them still call themselves Christian, similar to European countries, and those countries all have a long Protestant history, but religion is more important in American life.

than in those European countries. Americans go to church more often. They say religion is more important to who they are. So the United States is kind of like in this middle ground where we have fewer Christians than before, but religion still plays a bigger role than in similar kinds of countries. So religion's on the decline in the US, but it's not as low as it is in like these European Christian countries. So my question is this, what does this pattern mean?

Does it mean the US is on a path where we're gonna become like Europe, where we're like this Christian nation, but we're Christian in name only and word only, but we're become less and less religious over time? Or is this an example of American exceptionalism? Like we've been promised that if we're righteous, we'll prosper in the land. So is this growth of non-Christian religion in the US a good thing or a bad thing?

Shawn (05:15.773)
Is that what the statistics said that there's a growth of non-Christian religions? Do you mean secularism or do you mean non-Christian religions are growing?

Matt (05:22.51)
Well, secularism would be just a belief of the separation of church and state. But the largest denomination in the United States right now is nothing in particular. So that's growing in the United States. But there's also...

Shawn (05:37.309)
But that's what you mean by non-Christian growth of religion. I see.

Matt (05:42.198)
Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, so it's people who say nothing in particular, but they still say religion is important in their lives. So they're just not identifying with these Christian, typical Protestant religions maybe, but they still are religious.

Shawn (05:50.193)
Yeah.

Shawn (05:55.858)
Man, man, before I give my opinion or answer, do you yearn like I do for the great awakenings that happened? What was it? The first great awakening was like 17, like thirties. And there's this giant, just this is a great awakening, this spiritual, religious excitement all throughout the Americas. And then it kind of died down.

Matt (06:17.23)
It's a it's a myth, Sean. It's a myth. That's a myth. Yeah.

Shawn (06:21.181)
What? Why would you say that? That's well documented. It's well documented. are leaders of that great awakening. Are you going to say that the second great awakening is also a myth? What are you talking about?

Matt (06:34.432)
It's a myth about how widespread it was, right? So it's definitely true that there were religious groups holding revivals and bringing in converts and things like that. But it wasn't as like widespread. I'm saying America today is more religious today than it was at that time. That's what I mean by it's a myth.

Shawn (06:54.055)
So you're saying that we're in a third grade awakening today, if you compared it to those other two awakenings? No way, man. Wait a minute. mean, in what I've studied,

Matt (07:03.662)
We don't have surveys from that time, Sean, but it's still like 75 % of Americans say religion is important in their lives.

Shawn (07:07.549)
Wait, Matt, wait, wait, wait, How could society even function back then if we didn't have surveys?

Matt (07:18.642)
Without surface. Well, so there's a, I forget the guy's name, but he's a great, Stark and Fink. Rodney Stark is this guy's name, but it might be Fink. He has a book out there where he looks at church attendance numbers in 1776. And he looks at church attendance numbers from 1776 all the way to like 1990. And it was like,

20 % of Americans were going to church in that early period of the United States. So we don't have surveys, but we do have church attendance. And church attendance in the United States is way up compared to what it was during these great awakening periods.

Shawn (07:48.125)
you

Shawn (07:58.429)
How? Okay, okay, this is where we go on tangents and I start accusing you intellectuals of being just goofball. You think that in the 1700s we had enough record keeping and data to know if people were going to church or not on a regular basis. Compared to today.

Matt (08:15.832)
We did. We did because we, yes, because you you were required to go to church. many states had state religions, right? So when we talk about separation of church and state, that was only in the federal constitution because these various states had their own state religion, right? So for example, Pennsylvania was quake. Yeah. Well, prior to the ratification of the constitution, right? So the Quakers founded Pennsylvania and

Shawn (08:37.469)
in the 1800s.

Shawn (08:42.427)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, gotcha, gotcha. I'm fine to abandon the first great awakening. The second great awakening is more interesting. We didn't have state religions in the second great awakening. Have I veered us off the topic and the question?

Matt (08:54.648)
You've, yeah, no, no, that's fine. It's fine. You long for the, you think we're less religious today than the second grade awakening.

Shawn (09:03.837)
What I think and maybe you're right, maybe it's wrong. Well, what I think the the second great awakening was and that excitement around the the Restoration story the Joseph Smith the Smith family and the the growth of the church in the early days I mean you and I have to admit we felt a bit of that spirit in Ukraine, right? Ukraine had just just opened up when we got there and do you not agree that there was this great awakening happening like we felt

We were bringing the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to a people who for 70 years under communism, there's no way they were having it. They were receiving it or even open to receive it. And so there's this.

Matt (09:41.582)
Well, they definitely have faith in Christ, right? The Russian Orthodox Church was still there in communism, but yeah, there was an openness to the restored gospel because there was new forms of Christianity that they hadn't had before.

Shawn (09:54.065)
Yeah. And I just did an interview on my other podcast, the mission stories podcast with a kid who just got back from Africa and same thing. He's saying there is this incredible great awakening in Christianity that's happening. We would go into towns that no one had ever heard of the restored gospel. People would like, we'd meet a, he said he met a local sheriff and the guy didn't like them. And then they helped him come to Christ and the guy converted his entire neighborhood within like six months.

Like this great, exciting awakening. I do yearn for that in America. We've just become so jaded, so arrogant.

Matt (10:23.992)
Wow.

Matt (10:30.796)
No, Shawn. No, it's happening in America right now, Shawn. Elder Cook in the last general conference talked about the amazing growth of the church, and I'm telling you, everywhere I go in the United States is experiencing record growth in church membership.

Shawn (10:34.897)
You think so?

Shawn (10:46.191)
It's true. That is true. My ward's experiencing it. Are you experiencing it in your stakes and wars?

Matt (10:50.422)
In Rexburg, Idaho, Rexburg, Idaho, in my ward, have by far more missionary work, more convert baptisms than we've ever had before.

Shawn (10:59.101)
Okay. This is great. Okay. Good. Now you're going to be excited. I'll be wrong. I'll give you the points because if you're saying that the third great awakening is happening, but it's only happening in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this is great news.

Matt (11:11.852)
Well, think I, what I think is happening in the United States is evangelical Protestants have become really, really aligned with Republican politics and mainline Protestants, but this happened 20, 30 years ago, became really aligned with kind of leftist politics. And I think that for people who are seeking just pure religion separate from politics, they're leaving Protestantism because it's not delivering.

what it used to deliver in terms of salvation and like, yeah. And so people are looking for different forms of religion than what they did in the past, which is why so many people say nothing in particular, which is why our church is having tremendous growth. And if I had to guess, would guess Islam is also having tremendous growth in the United States right now. So it's just, think, so like in terms of the question, I think we're not gonna become Europe because Europe had state religions

Shawn (11:44.157)
religion.

Shawn (12:08.349)
Hmm.

Matt (12:09.9)
and as those declined, they didn't allow new religions to come in and take the place of those declining religions. But the United States, because we have such religious diversity here, as people leave Protestantism, they come to these other churches. And by the way, Catholicism's not declining because the Latinos and the Vietnamese and all these people from other countries who immigrate to the United States, they're Catholics. And so Catholicism, what's that?

Shawn (12:33.885)
Isn't that fascinating? That's fascinating. Catholicism over the past 30 years, despite its great legal challenges, is still growing.

Matt (12:42.413)
Yeah.

Matt (12:46.04)
Yeah, in the United States because the immigrants who come in are Catholic, right? It's not because they're doing like missionary work. So I think this is an example of American exceptionalism. Like we have a special place that allows people, like we had the first grade awakening, like you mentioned, the second grade awakening. I think there was a third grade awakening probably in like the 1950s and 1960s. And we're experiencing another kind of revival, but it's just a shifting of religion to different kinds of religion.

Shawn (12:57.39)
Shawn (13:15.719)
Fascinating it is leading into our next topic because you said Exceptionalism and we're gonna I'm gonna bring that up on our next topic It's very that's an interesting word and you believe because but when you say exceptionalism, you don't mean we Americans are amazing you mean there is a Promise given to this promised land of America from God that as long as there is righteousness. There's going to be protection growth freedom prosperity

Matt (13:21.803)
Yeah.

Matt (13:25.676)
okay.

Matt (13:42.35)
Freedom.

Yeah, prosperity in the Book of Mormon sense, right? That it's not necessarily riches, but it's like freedom and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. exceptionalism in that, in the, in the new world, right in North America, we've never had this divine right of Kings idea where God chooses a King, right? We've always had this idea that as people, we, we have the

Shawn (13:51.677)
Freedom, freedom and peace, peace and freedom. Yeah. I love it.

Matt (14:12.398)
power and authority to find God on our own and it's not like a top down sort of affair, right? That's the exceptionalism. I mean, it's like religious freedom, diversity of religion, freedom of religion, this marketplace of religious ideas and people have the freedom to choose whatever religion they want to choose. That to me is American exceptionalism in terms of religion.

Shawn (14:32.62)
Yeah, well said. DNC 134.4. We affirm that all people should be free to worship how, where and what they may. And that freedom establishes a situation where people are willing and able to either come to the church, come to the truth or reject it. But I think many people are. I love it. And you're right. Then DNC 29.8 talks about how God grants all nations. Well, it talks about how they grant, God grants all nations their portion of truth according to what they're ready to receive. It seems like if this is a promised land,

then yeah, you're right, we should be ready to receive it. And okay, that makes sense.

Matt (15:07.702)
Okay, so Shanti is not this topic, but a future topic. This one doesn't have much to do with American accept. I don't think so. So yeah, it does it. Okay. All right. So Illinois Congressman Jesus Chewy Garcia has made his party angry. They say he used an unfair trick to help his top staff member replace him in Congress. And I'm just going to point out at the beginning, this is not unique to this person. This happens all the time.

Shawn (15:14.909)
It kind of does. It kind of does a little

Matt (15:35.938)
But this is a recent example, so that's why I wanna talk about it. So in the United States, people who wanna run for Congress must file paperwork before a deadline. After the deadline passes, no new candidates can enter the race. So Garcia filed paperwork saying he was gonna run for re-election in 2026. Then after the deadline passed, he announced that he was gonna retire. But just before the deadline, his chief of staff, Patty Garcia, who's no relation,

had already filed her own paperwork to run for the same seat. So this means that Patty Garcia is now the only Democrat running for this seat. The district votes strongly Democrat, so she's most likely gonna win. So voters in the district are not gonna get to choose between different Democratic candidates, because there's not gonna be a primary, because nobody else filed to run for the seat other than Chuy's chief of staff.

So it's completely legal, but the question is, this morally correct? What's the right way to retire from office, Sean?

Shawn (16:37.924)
Okay, well, so I asked the question, what could possibly be the motive of Patty Garcia? It's one of two things. Because it seems in the face of it what she did, even though it's legal, it does seem very sketchy and it does seem very immoral. I'm not judging whether it is or not, but it does seem that way. And so I got to ask myself, well, what's the motive of Patty Garcia to do this? And I think it's one of two things. It's noblesse oblige, noblesse oblige,

Matt (16:52.066)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (17:07.109)
Or it's gattiant and robbers. It's one of the two, right? No bless, you know, no bless obliges. That's the French term that, that it talks about the exceptional, the privileged, the intellectuals, the smart, they infer the responsibility of the exceptional and the privileged people should act above and in charge of those who are less blessed. Yeah. So if this is her motive, so like in the, so like,

Matt (17:09.216)
Matt (17:12.749)
No.

Matt (17:32.302)
Hmm.

Shawn (17:34.429)
There's a book called the Tory radicals by Cecil Driver. He was a British upper class, like aristocracy guy kind of guy. And he wrote this, this theory of this book about this and the bless oblige basically saying, look, look, those of us who are exceptional, we don't want to force this down the throats of the ordinary man, but if they could just give us the power to make decisions for them, then everything will be so much greater because we are the exceptional. So if Patty,

what's her name? If Patty Garcia's motive is noblesse oblige, which, you know, some up there in politics kind of feel that way, then I think this is very dangerous and very, terrible. Because the only other alternative for her to do this is a get-ant-and-robber kind of secret combination kind of thing. Right? They behind the scenes put a deal together to basically put her into power for selfish reasons. Right? So either motive is horrible, but

Matt (18:06.441)
See ya

Matt (18:13.644)
Yeah.

Matt (18:29.442)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (18:34.109)
I don't know. I mean, you're going to come back.

Matt (18:35.139)
She thinks she's superior to everybody else, it's okay.

Shawn (18:37.924)
No bless oblige.

Matt (18:40.43)
Well, I have to say this in terms of that, because there's a mayoral race in Idaho falls going on and I don't, I only pay a little bit of attention to local politics, but I recently read about the two candidates and I'm like, my goodness, like one of them would legit be terrible for the city. And one of them would be like, has experience. And you say, okay, they're level headed. And like, to me, it's clear that there's one candidate that's qualified and the other one would just be a disaster for the city.

Shawn (18:56.05)
Yeah

Matt (19:09.218)
But the one that I think would be a disaster for the city won the first round, right? They didn't win enough of the votes or there's a runoff, but it's like, there's something to this idea that you can't trust voters. Sean, like I could see where it's like, you can't sometimes like, I don't know. I don't know how people make their decisions, what they vote on, but I could see like if I was the chief of staff of Chewy Garcia, I'd be like, if we open this up to all the other Democrats out there,

Shawn (19:22.39)
Hehehehehe

Matt (19:37.102)
There's a chance something really bad could happen and the only way to prevent this is to do something that they're not paying attention to.

Shawn (19:40.349)
Don't shoot.

Shawn (19:44.765)
But don't you hate that more than you'd hate the potential of the people making a wrong decision? That there are people who actually think I am exceptional, more exceptional than the rest of you. I have pride and arrogance and ego that says I'm smarter, I'm better. I will do what's better, so I'm just going to sneak it in.

Matt (19:47.298)
you

Matt (19:57.966)
I can't even tell. I can't even tell you how often often this stuff happens, right? Like there's a Congresswoman in Arizona. I mean, she won her seat in an election, but there's, don't want to name all the names of all the people that's happened to, but very powerful people in the United States of America got their first seat through something like this, where they didn't have to go and win the election. Because if you have to win the election, it's really hard to do. So I would say, I would say at least a third.

of the really powerful elected officials in the United States got their seats through something like this. That being said, yeah, I think it's immoral. And I think I do not agree with Marjorie Taylor Greene very often on very many things, but in this one, I have to give her props. Like she decided she doesn't want to run for reelection in 2026. So she announces that she's going to step down so that there can be a process, an open process for her seat.

for somebody to take that spot. And I think that's the way you do it, right? When you know you're gonna step down, you don't try and pass it on to your chief of staff or to your family members. You announce it way in advance that there can be a competition and let somebody win the seat rather than just sort of have it given to them.

Shawn (21:14.621)
Credit due, right? She did something right. Yeah.

Matt (21:17.164)
Yeah. Yeah. Good for her. I actually never really, I've never been on this, you know, I don't like hate people in politics. There's sometimes they do things that I'm like, that's a wrong thing to do, but if they do a good thing, I'll point it out. I don't know why Marjorie Taylor green did the right thing in this situation, because if I'm being honest, Sean, if I were in Chewy Garcia's spot, I would do exactly the same thing. A hundred percent. would say, I would say voters are not even paying attention to that. Now again,

Shawn (21:41.821)
Woh-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho

Matt (21:46.38)
I'm also one of those that's mad at Joe Biden for what he did with Kamala Harris, right? I'm like, that was not good for the country, but I don't know. I might've done it.

Shawn (21:54.237)
You're on that, you're on that, Pat, you're on that team, Joe Biden's fault, Joe Biden's fault that Kamala Harris lost.

Matt (21:58.956)
What he basically did the same thing, right? Joe Biden did exactly. Well, no, he, just saying he did exactly the same thing, right? There was no primary election for Kamala Harris. She didn't have to win that nomination. And I would have been tempted to do the same thing as Joe Biden. If I were in his spot, who does, who doesn't want to be a kingmaker.

Shawn (22:08.049)
Yeah. Yes.

There you go, yeah.

Shawn (22:19.995)
Because you are part of the noblesse oblige, Matt. You are a professor of political science up on your throne.

Matt (22:30.316)
do feel like I, do feel like I, Sean, tell me you wouldn't do the same thing. If you had that spot, you wouldn't want to just make sure that your pal got the spot or your son. Okay. All right.

Shawn (22:41.277)
No, that's corrupt. mean, that's, what? Why? And I don't have the same, I don't know what the right word is to describe you and the noblesse oblige, arrogant. I don't think, I think that God's children are valuable. I think that each individual is smart and is.

Matt (22:55.914)
Arrogance arrogance that would be the word that you have the same arrogance

Shawn (23:08.473)
working out their own salvation, their own lives, and they're doing their best they can in various situations. And I think they're to be... I don't agree with majority rules so there's problems with democracy, but I don't think we need to view the people as, you're all so stupid, I need to save you. It's pretty arrogant.

Matt (23:27.694)
It's definitely arrogant, but it sometimes is true. Okay.

Shawn (23:32.391)
But it is, it is, it does seem to be, this is probably the main problem I have with the Democrat party. If they weren't that way so much, I wouldn't have as much problem with them. As I've learned over the years, I've studied what they are. This is the main problem they have.

Matt (23:45.914)
No, no, no, no. I can go down the list of Republicans that got their seat. Mitch McConnell got his seat this way.

Shawn (23:52.099)
I mean just the concept of I view the people as idiots and we are the elite and we must save them and help them and take care of them. Who knows? Maybe you're the political scientist. Maybe it's Republicans too.

Matt (23:57.6)
Matt (24:01.218)
because because Trump definitely does not think Americans are stupid. Trump respects the voters. All right. I'm giving you points for that Sean. like that. Okay.

Shawn (24:07.719)
the

Shawn (24:17.127)
Well, you should give me points because I brought up something other than the invisible hand. brought up... the blessed oblige.

Matt (24:22.486)
No bless, no oblige. Yeah, I like it. I like when you come up with foreign words to describe things.

Remember I learned from you Malam prohibitum and Malam. Yeah.

Shawn (24:34.747)
and Malam and Say. Malam and Say, yeah.

Matt (24:38.702)
Okay, recent surveys show that many Americans are unhappy with how their country is working. About half of American adults say democracy is working poorly in the United States and only about one quarter believe government decisions reflect what most people want. This dissatisfaction is especially strong among young women. According to a recent Gallup survey, 40 % of American women aged 18 to 44 would move to another country

permanently if they could. This is four times higher than the number was in 2014. This creates the largest gap between young women and young men that Gallup has ever recorded in any country. Young women also have lost more trust in American institutions like the government and courts and military and elections than any other group over the past 10 years. Canada is the top destination for young women who want to leave, followed by New Zealand, Italy and Japan.

So it's not just a weather thing. They'll go to cold places too. While most people who say they want to move will probably not actually leave, these surveys suggest that millions of Americans, especially young women, are losing faith in their country's institutions and imagining their futures elsewhere. We believe that the US Constitution is divinely inspired. These levels of distrust, if you look globally, usually lead to regime change in other countries. So the question is,

What's causing this problem and what can we do about it?

Shawn (26:10.725)
Okay, so assuming that the Gallup poll is correct, assuming it's true, is it actually a problem? Would it really lead to revolution? Or is this just a sign that free people think independently and are rightfully skeptical of their government and of their institutions? And that's a good thing because that causes people to adjust. It causes things to get fixed when institutions and governments get too big bloated and in control.

Matt (26:14.348)
Yeah. They're good at this. Yeah.

Matt (26:33.454)
Well...

Shawn (26:40.423)
That's not a good thing. That's not the way our constitution was set up.

Matt (26:43.928)
But our constitution, so we say our constitution is divinely inspired, but our constitution doesn't seem to be working if most Americans say democracy is not working in the United States, right? What happens if you live in a country and they're like, these outcomes that we're getting from our government are not reflective of the will of the people, then people say, well, then we need to change our government. And then that's gonna make them say, we need to change the constitution. So then.

If I go around to my political science buddies and I say, I think the constitution is great. I think it's divinely inspired. They're like, are you insane? Like, look at all of the problems that come from the U S constitution. And if we just made these little changes, then we wouldn't have all of these problems in the United States. And so when you have half of the women in our country that are 18 to 44, almost half want to move somewhere else, then that creates opportunities for politicians to come in and say, let's change the constitution.

to fix these problems. And so then that causes a problem for us because then we're like, wait, we believe in the constitution. So is it, if it's not the constitution causing these problems, which is what political scientists would say is it's the constitution's broken, then what is it? It can't just be that we're expecting too much or we're like just.

Shawn (28:00.741)
But just like in say scripture, We, scripture is also divinely inspired yet it takes a lifetime of humble seeking, diligent seeking to understand the mysteries that are within there. And, and oftentimes we get it wrong and then we fail and then we have to debate or study or rethink or get revelation to get things corrected. But if it's divinely inspired, the flaws aren't with God, they're with man.

as the scripture says, right? So if we're gonna view the constitution that way, then perhaps the questioning of, know, the dis, like for example, if the poll says half of women are dissatisfied or think that democracy is failing them, well, maybe now we go back to divinely inspired constitution and realize it was never set up as a democracy, right? It's not a democracy. It's not supposed to be a democracy. Democracy in fact probably will fail us, right? Because majority rule is not exactly the best.

Matt (28:52.686)
Yeah.

Shawn (29:00.135)
plan but instead we're a democratic republic.

Matt (29:03.714)
Sure, but so is Canada as a democratic republic. So is New Zealand, Italy and Japan. if the women in the United States want to go to another country, and there's no way to know from the survey, like why it is that women want to leave, but it is interesting to me that it started in the Trump administration, that it's increased four times since 2014. Like it says to me, there's something that's happened in the last 10 years.

particularly it's affecting women age 18 to 44 and it doesn't seem to be affecting men of the same age because only 20 % of them want to leave. That means that there's something like it's there's something else going on that we have to we have to find a way to to help these women feel like they belong or we risk losing like

Shawn (29:51.227)
Yeah. I mean, you, cited yourself that it's the growth is happening in the last 10 years. I was watching a video today from this guy, Quaker Quaker is an LDS influencer. I love some of his stuff, hate some of his stuff, but he was talking about, he just came out with this random video today and just was basically saying, look, I'm to talk directly to millennials, Gen Z, Gen Y. Look, we are too self absorbed, right? We, we are too.

Matt (30:00.781)
Yeah.

Shawn (30:17.373)
We look all we're getting all of our information and all of our self-esteem from social media which is telling us that the only two things that matter are our looks and making money our looks and making money, that's what we're telling each other through social media and Yeah, I think I think that if you

Matt (30:36.194)
Yeah, but that would affect men and women at the same rates.

Shawn (30:40.157)
i'd i'd think that women are way more affected by the messages of you're supposed to look a certain way and that is the primary message in social media for sure

Matt (30:52.133)
you don't think you don't think it has to do with more sexist policies in the last 10 years that target women or make them feel left out.

Shawn (31:00.539)
Absolutely not. Like give me one single example of that. What? How does that apply? How is that a sexist policy? That's not a sexist policy.

Matt (31:03.732)
Abortion, right? Abortion would be wonderful.

Matt (31:10.38)
Well, because the best way to prevent abortion would be to do something to men who are impregnating women, right? If there's an unwanted pregnancy, then it takes a man and a woman to create an unwanted pregnancy. But our policies are all about women and whether or not they can get the medical care they want, prenatal medical care, right?

Shawn (31:23.282)
Yeah, but...

Shawn (31:30.237)
But there's never been any proposal to punish women different than punishing men.

Matt (31:35.352)
sure punishes sure it does because if a woman let's say she has some kind of an ectopic pregnancy or something like that she can't just go to the doctor and get it taken care of because in many states that's against the law because that could be an abortion because abortion isn't even a

Shawn (31:50.299)
As of what, as of what, three years ago?

Matt (31:53.72)
No, this would be like, what, seven years ago they started passing these laws?

Shawn (31:57.769)
Yeah, but I don't think that's, I think you're attributing an improper motive to that. It's not a sexist law. It's a life concept law, right? They believe that, they're not,

Matt (32:04.46)
I'm saying there are laws

But it's a lot of the policy targets women. The policy affects women. There's nothing.

Shawn (32:14.065)
Yeah, you're right. It should target men. You're absolutely right. And if that's the sexist thing, OK, that makes sense. I mean, I think I think being anti-abortion, though, isn't a sexist. That's not. Yeah.

Matt (32:17.014)
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah. And so there's a number of, there's a.

No, no, no. I'm just saying the ways that the laws have changed in the last 10 years reduce the liberty of women and they don't reduce the liberty of men.

Shawn (32:38.245)
in that one example? can you think of other examples?

Matt (32:40.024)
Sure. Well, so then there's the downstream effects of that where it's like hospitals are closing and things like that, right?

Shawn (32:46.333)
Okay, so you're attributing it just to abortion. You're thinking that half the women in America want to leave because abortion has seven years ago.

Matt (32:49.676)
those policies.

Matt (32:54.062)
So that's one of them where it targets women. I wish I'd have a woman. My daughter could tell me a lot more of them. But yeah, there's a lot of policies in the United States that they affect women more than they affect men. And I know that a lot of women that I talk to that are like, yeah, I don't feel safe in the United States. I feel attacked.

Shawn (33:10.138)
Like what?

Shawn (33:15.805)
don't want to be ignorant, but it seems like that's just not true. There's no way that's true. Ask every woman that you know if there are things that men can do that they can't do. What? Name one. Men can't have an abortion? What do mean?

Matt (33:21.644)
I think it's some of the-

Matt (33:28.206)
Yes. Well, we just, just talked about healthcare. That's what I'm saying. That's why when you create a policy that restricts women's access to healthcare, it has a disproportional effect. Um, I think there's, there's laws related to like, uh, child support and custody and things like that. Yeah. I don't know.

Shawn (33:49.405)
But why does that?

Matt (33:51.01)
Well, because because women primarily become the caregivers, right? And so they're not getting the support that they need to care for children that are in need and things like that.

Shawn (34:00.667)
Yeah, but I think on the reverse side, if you go too left with that, then you get a welfare state. that's, I mean, I'll go along your line of thinking that's just as sexist. When welfare state laws say that if you, woman, have a man in your home, you will not get welfare. Then that, again, is sexist against the men maybe. And it's definitely not good for the women. So I think that's failed us. So yeah, I don't know, man. I don't think that is the central issue here.

Matt (34:28.962)
Now you're going to make me Google sexist policies over the last 10 years. But I don't, I don't, I, again, the survey doesn't tell us anything about it, but I think it's something as members of the church where we believe in a divinely inspired constitution, we need to think about how the policies we support affect the way people think about the constitution itself. And,

Shawn (34:33.565)
You were so comfortable sitting back in your chair.

Matt (34:57.166)
If we govern in a way or if we support policies that make people feel marginalized or make them feel like they don't have a voice or they're not represented, then we risk losing the constitution that we think is divinely inspired.

Shawn (35:09.341)
But, but the way people feel is different from the reality sometimes. And if you really did, if we really were prepared and had a discussion about what can men do that women cannot do by law and by right in our society. don't, mean, the abortion topic is a very nuanced one.

Matt (35:25.09)
They can impregnate lots of women. abortions. Well, so all I'm saying is this.

Shawn (35:29.575)
But put that aside, I don't think there's anything we could come up with really.

Matt (35:33.674)
I'm just, I'll just say it this way, Sean. If I were running for office and I saw that 40 % of women aged 18 to 44 want to leave the United States, I'm going to come up with some kind of a platform that speaks to them. Like I don't know what it is that makes them feel that way, but I would definitely figure out what that is. Cause that's going to win me an election right there. If I can appeal to that crowd, I can win an election. And if it, if it requires some kind of constitutional argument, like

Shawn (35:55.719)
Yeah.

Matt (36:02.326)
Let's pass an equal rights amendment. Let's pass some kind of a constitutional right to la la la la la like let's modify the Constitution in whatever way I can win an election on that.

Shawn (36:10.973)
But wouldn't work. But I don't think you would because it wouldn't work because the reality would have an equal rights.

Matt (36:17.774)
How many things did Trump campaign on that he couldn't do?

Shawn (36:22.173)
allies to change that you get to get

Matt (36:22.796)
Right? Yeah. I don't have to do it. I just campaign on it and then fight for it, fight for it, fight for it. And I mean, eventually if people start seeing that I'm winning elections based on that, then I'm going to get more politicians on board eventually.

Shawn (36:35.901)
Okay, but what is the powerful message and platform that actually convinces it? I mean, I wish we knew, I wish we could have done a little more research on what is it that is making 40 % of the women unhappy here. The only reference was that democracy isn't working.

Matt (36:51.68)
Right, well, so, right. So we don't know, because they don't ask that question. But if I were running for office, I would definitely do focus groups. I would definitely figure out what message I needed to do. And if I could make a constant, I'm just saying like, when I see this as a comparative political science person, when I see this in other countries, then I say, regime change is on the way. Like, if you were to poll people in Russia right now and say, is democracy working in Russia?

Shawn (36:57.425)
You go find out.

Matt (37:20.108)
you're going to have a higher percentage that say, yes, it's working in Russia than you do in the United States. And I'm, one of those things like regime change could happen soon in Russia and they hire.

Shawn (37:31.037)
Who would say that there's more democracy in Russia than in United States? okay.

Matt (37:35.934)
Russians would, Russians, right? Russians are more satisfied with democracy in Russia than Americans are with democracy in the United States.

Shawn (37:46.033)
that kind of proves the whole point. There is no democracy in Russia. It's just that their government has taken away the right of free speech and free press and have told them that democracy is happening in Russia when it's actually not. They're being bamboozled. That's what I think is happening here. If women are unhappy because they feel like they have less rights than men and they want to leave, it's because they're being bamboozled by some message that isn't true.

Matt (38:09.196)
Okay, well I'll give you points for that, Sean.

Okay, this is the big question. We're completely away from politics. We're going into things that really, really matter a lot. Fictional movie and television franchises. Okay, so two of the most popular franchises are having big weeks. Stranger Things dropped several episodes of its final season and Wicked just released the sequel to, it's called Wicked for Good.

Shawn (38:16.146)
Hahaha

Shawn (38:22.749)
Ha

Matt (38:42.58)
And they're like, people are super excited about this. So I identified, what's that?

Shawn (38:46.685)
Oh yeah, I got in huge trouble this past weekend because my whole extended family, they got tickets, we go watch Wicked and I was critical of it and I got beat up. I got beat up, I know, okay.

Matt (38:57.998)
How dare you, Sean? How dare you? I went to watch Wicked for my anniversary. We saved it for the... But because I've seen Wicked on stage two times and I really like Wicked.

Shawn (39:09.761)
yeah, you like me. You like musical theater in general.

Matt (39:14.286)
Uh, I do. I like life theater. I don't like concerts. I love life theater. And I have to tell you, Sean, when I went to Broadway for the first time and saw a show on Broadway, I was like, okay, this is like, there is no better art form to me than a Broadway show in Broadway. That's it's amazing. Like, yeah, it's phenomenal. Um, yeah, that's right. That's right. But I saw wicked on Broadway and I'm telling you, Sean, and I didn't have great seats. It's, it's amazing. Anyhow.

Shawn (39:22.951)
Did you cry?

Wow. Wow. Well, we disagree. I respect your opinion, but you're wrong.

Matt (39:44.522)
And so, you know, I have a different view of, of wicked than probably you do. Cause, cause I saw on Broadway and I saw some other time and I was like, this is phenomenal.

Shawn (39:49.327)
Yes, I have a very different view. mean...

So you were impressed by the presentation of it, not necessarily the story, but the way that they presented it, right? Yeah. Right, the lipstick, the lipstick on the

Matt (39:58.87)
Right, right, right, right, right. The store. No, Sean, the presentation. Stop. Okay. All right. Well, I identified what I think are some common themes between wicked and stranger things that makes them both popular and probably makes it resonate with members of our church. So these are the ones that I identified and I want to know.

Shawn (40:20.061)
Yeah.

Matt (40:28.0)
which is the common theme that members of our church should hold onto as like, this is like the true why we look. Okay. So one of them would be friendship and loyalty. another one would be individuality and acceptance. One that I think Sean might like is the dangers of unchecked power and corruption. there's like the coming of age, character growth sort of stuff. And then another would be the nature of good and evil. And so the question Sean is,

Shawn (40:31.815)
Ha

Matt (40:56.844)
Which of those, or did you find your own common theme in these franchises that like members of our church would be like, yes, these are fictional stories, completely made up, but there's some truth in this theme that is important in my life.

Shawn (41:00.765)
Those are good.

Shawn (41:11.645)
Yeah, I mean, I think you did a great job identifying all the themes that LDS people would relate to. I don't know, dude. I'm going to say the good and evil one. mean, every story or in all of media, the stories that continue to resonate most are when there's the hero's journey through a good versus evil storyline. But I'll disagree that Wicked did a good job, at least in the movies.

to really make like, like I thought that was the opposite message was that there's ambiguity in who's right and what in right and wrong.

Matt (41:48.898)
Yes, that's the theme, Sean. It's the nature of good versus evil. What it means to be good and what it means to be evil and our inability as humans to accurately judge that, right? So if you think Stranger Things, Stranger Things has a number of these characters that pop up that when you first meet them, you're like, that's a bad person because of the choices that they make. But then,

Shawn (42:03.202)
Okay, okay, good.

Matt (42:16.642)
They make some heroic choices later on and you're like, wait a minute. Maybe that person's not, maybe we shouldn't judge good and evil by the choices they make because people can make bad choices and make good choices. And then, and then in wicked, the nature of good and evil is like, again, not to get too deep into the story because I'm not, but if you think about the characters, you've got the, the, the green witch, I don't remember their names. The green.

Shawn (42:29.981)
Okay, gotcha, okay.

Shawn (42:44.828)
Alphabet.

Matt (42:46.058)
Elphaba, she is thought of as evil because she's different and all of that stuff. She spends the whole story trying to do good and be good. And every time she tries to do good, it ends up not working out the right way and ends up making things worse. And that's why she sings that song about no good deed goes unpunished. I'm not going to try anymore. And then you have the other one, the good witch who she looks good and all of that stuff, but she's not really doing good. But then by the end it's like,

No, it's like you have to, it's something like in order to, it's like being good, not trying to do good, but being good is what makes you good. Right? So it's like, it's like what it means to be good.

Shawn (43:26.397)
So did you see, is the story to you that the green witch was the good and the other witch was the bad?

Matt (43:32.138)
Uh-uh. Mm-mm. No, the story to me is that by the end of it, they both realize that again, it's not your actions that you do that make you good or bad, but it's who you are on the inside that makes you good or bad.

Shawn (43:44.69)
Matt (43:47.544)
So to me, both of them have the same thing, right? Where they're saying good and evil is not judged by your actions, but by who you are. And you can become good.

Shawn (43:57.405)
So you're kind of an authority on this. You've written books, you've done these studies on, no you are. Isn't that the theme of your recent book you just wrote? Becoming, what's the phrase that is, yeah, becoming. But how do you teach us, how do you delineate between someone who has become good versus someone who is behaving not good? I'll give you an example. There's this beautiful couple that just got baptized in our ward.

Matt (44:00.942)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah

Religious becoming. Yeah.

Shawn (44:25.635)
And we went to the baptism and this amazing woman gets up and the first thing she says was, you know, I was kind of surprised to put this like white jumpsuit on for the baptism. She's like, cause it literally reminded me of the orange jumpsuit that I've worn the majority of my life in federal prison. And we're like, whoa, whoa, we didn't know that, but what an amazing contrast, right? And she just went off talking about her background and why, and how for the first time in her life,

Matt (44:43.344)
huh.

Shawn (44:54.695)
coming to Christ, she feels the love of God, she feels the love of the saints, she feels loved, and she's becoming a different person. Now you could easily look at her behaviors and, she was in prison, and she has tattoos all over her, right? And many people could judge that and like, well, that's wrong, that's bad. But that's not true. So I get your point in saying, look, they've become disciples of Christ, humble, broken, repentant disciples of Christ. And the things that they've done don't matter anymore. They've been washed away, they've been suffered for.

Matt (45:01.784)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (45:22.471)
But how do you with our, you know, that's an extreme example. How do you then differentiate between the doing, you know, like in your wicked story, Glinda was doing bad. She was doing wrong, right? But you're saying, yeah, but she was a good person.

Matt (45:38.254)
She learns that Glinda learns that being good is not the show that you put on, but you have to be good in your core. And then the things you do are good things. You know what I mean? She learns that she has to change, because she sees the, both of them, both of the witches, I don't know how to call it, both of them have a perception problem where they're seeing things not the right way. And it's not till the very, very end.

that they're both able to take off whatever glasses that they've been perceiving the whole world through and say, wait a minute. Okay. To be good in the, green, which is case to be good. have to leave because there's no way from, for, for the good in society to happen if I'm still here. So I'm going to be good and leave. And the other woman has says in order to be good, I have to now actually study and learn and like,

Shawn (46:31.005)
But doesn't that suggest in order to be good you have to behave good? Your behavior and actions do matter?

Matt (46:36.682)
So, so the to me, the gospel analogy is after Adam and Eve leave the garden of Eden and they repent in the pearl of great price, they both say because of my transgression, my eyes are open and and their repentance process allows the scales to kind of fall from their eyes and they're able to see things that they never could have seen had they not transgressed and I think that there are people like that in this life.

that they only come to know Christ through the repentance process. They transgress, they sin, they do whatever, and then in that repentance process of coming to Christ, they come to know Him in a way that, like Alma the younger, they can now suddenly see things as they really are. And there's other people who go through life just kind of doing the right things all the time, and some of the people who do the right things all the time have this kind of conversion moment where they come to know Christ.

And they are born again, basically, right? So to me, being good is being born again, but there's not one path to that. Some people's path to that is a path of always trying to do the right thing. But even when you try to do the right thing, you're still going to make mistakes and you have to sin, right? And other people's path to that is making lots of mistakes along the way and then having repentance moments. But so to me then, good versus evil is repenting and then having that change of heart.

or not doing that. And I think both of those shows show you that good and evil isn't the sum of the choices we make, but it's have we become something, have we been transformed through Christ, although they don't say it that way, right? And that's what distinguishes good from evil. And even the scriptures say that, Sean, right? Alma says, except a man is born again, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. I guess Jesus says that in John, but there's also something like that in Mosiah.

Shawn (48:21.469)
I

Shawn (48:32.688)
It also says that after baptism you become a new creature. You're a different creature. You do have to be changed. becoming one with Christ. Yeah, obviously those stories are more, you obviously preach Christ, but I see now where you're tying it into that. Okay, that's good, that's good. That's good.

Matt (48:38.028)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Matt (48:49.89)
Yeah. Yeah. So to me, that's not the part I love about Wicked. I like the music in Wicked and I like the spectacle as Sean calls it the lipstick on a pig. But if you have to say a common theme, that's the con. Also, I like in Stranger Things, the character Susie, who's a member of our church. I like that she's not, cause you see a lot of like portrayals of members of our church in the media right now.

that I don't love. I don't love being portrayed as some of these things. Suzy's one I can get behind and be like, yeah, she's a cool member of our church. So that makes me like stranger things.

Shawn (49:25.442)
Hehehehehe

Matt (49:31.278)
Don't you think she's the cool member of our church and all of the media? If you're like, okay, I have to pick one character in the media that's a properly identifies a member of our church. I'm gonna pick Susie over everyone else.

Shawn (49:40.899)
You don't think that stupid TV show that every member of our church watches called, what is it, housewives of, yeah. Well, you don't think that all you listeners out there, that's not a better representation over Suzy?

Matt (49:46.382)
Secret Lives of Mormon Wives?

Matt (49:52.878)
I'm not picking that. I'm not picking that one. I'm not picking a farmer ballerina. I'm not picking the Real Housewives of Salt Lake. I'm not picking sister wives. I'm not picking the the who all the Hulu shows that make us look bad. Maybe Mark Rober or the outdoor boys guy. I'll pick one of them maybe but but if it's fictional, it's going to be Susie. It's not going to be the

Shawn (50:14.609)
Yeah? Okay good, that's good. That was interesting. Okay, good one.

Matt (50:20.43)
It's not going to be the Book of Mormon musical missionaries. like kudos to the stranger things guys who they're not members of our church. They're not even connected to it. I'm not choosing any of the South park stuff. Like they get it right in stranger things. So that's the reason I like that one reason I like that.

Shawn (50:38.831)
Nice. All there's Suzy's why you like Stranger Things and the lipstick on the pig is why you like Wicked.

Matt (50:44.75)
And, and Sean, stranger things has the death metal. It's probably not death metal. It has the guitar solo. Yeah. And that reminds me of you.

Shawn (50:52.733)
Thrash. Thrash metal.

That's true. Okay, that's good. That's true. That's true.

Matt (51:01.686)
Right? You're the guy that would climb on the roof and play the guitar while the demons come try to eat you to save all of your friends.

Shawn (51:07.463)
to to Metallica's master puppets. Yeah, that's true. We've done that before, me and you.

Matt (51:12.718)
That was a real song that he was playing?

Shawn (51:15.805)
What did you just say to me?

Matt (51:17.614)
I had to get back at you.

Shawn (51:18.939)
Metallica's Master of Puffets? You don't know that that's a real song? How dare you,

Matt (51:24.206)
thought the Duffer Brothers wrote that song for the Stranger.

Shawn (51:27.485)
I would say knowing you that you'd be actually intentionally playing dumb, but yeah don't think you actually know that that was Metallica's master puppets

Matt (51:35.84)
Of course I know I, somebody told me that, but I purposely said that because you said wicked was lipstick on a pig. And so I was like, okay, I'll get back to Sean. Hey listeners, let us know what you think about this. We'd love to hear what you have to say. Also, if you're a woman and you think that we're wrong about why you're upset, let us know why you're upset. Then we don't have to do a focus group. We'll read it on the podcast. Hey, thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you guys again next week.

Shawn (51:42.435)
Shawn (52:00.539)
Yeah.