What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)

Serial Killer Pen Pals.

December 05, 2023 Jameson Keys & Caroline Season 1 Episode 33
Serial Killer Pen Pals.
What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
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What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
Serial Killer Pen Pals.
Dec 05, 2023 Season 1 Episode 33
Jameson Keys & Caroline

Send us a Text Message.

Ever wonder what goes on in the minds of serial killers? Join us today as we pull back the curtain on the eerie world of Keith Jesperson, better known as the "Happy Face Killer". We trace his dark childhood, marred by violence and abuse, and speculate how these early experiences could have nudged him down a sinister path. We also analyze a disquieting exchange of letters between Jesperson and another alleged killer, Rex Heuermann. With their disturbing messages and potential motives, these correspondences paint a chilling portrait of these murderers' mindset.

From pet abuse to arson, we take a hard look at the warning signs of a budding serial killer. Commonalities such as antisocial tendencies and substance abuse get under our scrutiny as we delve deeper into the psyche of these dangerous individuals. Our journey into Jesperson's life doesn't stop at his childhood. We delve into his unsuccessful stint with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and his strange connection with Rex Heuermann. Our discussion takes a turn when we bring up the false confession made by a woman named Laverne Pavlina and her abusive boyfriend, who claimed to have killed one of Jesperson's victims.

Finally, we examine how Jesperson's daughter, Melissa Moore has forged a brave future. As a successful author, podcaster and speaker. She uses her platform to raise awareness and support for survivors of trauma and violent crimes. 

Nations News "Happy Face killer pens note to Gilgo beach suspect." 11-29-23
Long Island.com " Happy Face killer urges Heuermann to confess." 11-21-23
Happy Face Podcast-Melissa Moore and Lauren Bright Pacheco
"Whole: a guide to self-repair" by Melissa Moore

Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com



Background music by Michael Shuller Music

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Send us a Text Message.

Ever wonder what goes on in the minds of serial killers? Join us today as we pull back the curtain on the eerie world of Keith Jesperson, better known as the "Happy Face Killer". We trace his dark childhood, marred by violence and abuse, and speculate how these early experiences could have nudged him down a sinister path. We also analyze a disquieting exchange of letters between Jesperson and another alleged killer, Rex Heuermann. With their disturbing messages and potential motives, these correspondences paint a chilling portrait of these murderers' mindset.

From pet abuse to arson, we take a hard look at the warning signs of a budding serial killer. Commonalities such as antisocial tendencies and substance abuse get under our scrutiny as we delve deeper into the psyche of these dangerous individuals. Our journey into Jesperson's life doesn't stop at his childhood. We delve into his unsuccessful stint with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and his strange connection with Rex Heuermann. Our discussion takes a turn when we bring up the false confession made by a woman named Laverne Pavlina and her abusive boyfriend, who claimed to have killed one of Jesperson's victims.

Finally, we examine how Jesperson's daughter, Melissa Moore has forged a brave future. As a successful author, podcaster and speaker. She uses her platform to raise awareness and support for survivors of trauma and violent crimes. 

Nations News "Happy Face killer pens note to Gilgo beach suspect." 11-29-23
Long Island.com " Happy Face killer urges Heuermann to confess." 11-21-23
Happy Face Podcast-Melissa Moore and Lauren Bright Pacheco
"Whole: a guide to self-repair" by Melissa Moore

Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com



Background music by Michael Shuller Music

Speaker 1:

Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the Shadows.

Speaker 2:

A Father Daughter True Crime Podcast.

Speaker 1:

My name is Jameson Keyes.

Speaker 2:

I'm Caroline. Hello and welcome everyone. How are you?

Speaker 1:

I'm doing fine, Caroline. How are you?

Speaker 2:

I'm good Thanks for having me. I want to mention that we are currently following the missing RIT student case. His name is Matthew Grant, he's 22. He lives in Henrietta, which is right next to RIT, rochester Institute of Technology, and the Monroe County Sheriff's Department has said that they are expanding their where they're looking to Central New York and the Adirondacks, so the mountains, which makes sense, because his parents or his roommate I think it was his mom actually who said that he wanted to get more into hiking and seeing things outside and just being more outdoorsy. So the Adirondacks, I think, are a really good idea to check.

Speaker 1:

How long has he been gone though?

Speaker 2:

So he was last seen November 20th at 10 pm. He was wearing a green jacket, blue jeans and driving a 2014 dark charcoal gray Jeep Cherokee with a Michigan license plate. His easy pass was last recorded on the New York State through A around exit 36. He took exit 36, which is to Interstate 81.

Speaker 1:

Right, but he hasn't contacted his parents or anything like that right.

Speaker 2:

No, they can't even find his car.

Speaker 1:

No, god, that's not good.

Speaker 2:

It's not, and I also wanted to mention that he was a Mechie, so that's mechanical engineering for those of you who didn't go to a tech school. But he was studying mechanical engineering. He was the co-captain of the university's wrestling team and they are just asking for anyone who knows anything or thinks they may have seen something or seen anything that could be related to this to call 9-mom-1 or go to crime stoppers. You can always go to crime stoppers to give an anonymous tip.

Speaker 1:

Right, and it's your alma mater.

Speaker 2:

It is yes, I graduated from there. Yeah, I'm really interested in following this case because I don't know. It's very eerie that I went there and now someone's missing from there.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so. Yeah, we'll say a prayer and hope for the best.

Speaker 2:

We'll hope for the best. He'll say a prayer. I do not pray.

Speaker 1:

We'll hope for the best from Matthew and if you have seen anything, please listen to that and call crime stoppers or call the local police department there.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

Our little podcast has just reached beyond a thousand downloads, so that's a great thing.

Speaker 2:

Yes, thank you so much for listening. Make sure that you're giving us five stars and reviewing us all good reviews. If you are not liking it, just move on to another podcast. Just don't leave a bad review.

Speaker 1:

And in a shameless attempt at self-promotion, my first novel, which is the Vanishing Ballerina, is being published and will be available on all the major sites later this month or the first week in January.

Speaker 2:

Very exciting, your first novel.

Speaker 1:

My first novel.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And Carolyn's read it, so she's not at all impartial.

Speaker 2:

No, but I do read a lot and it's a very good book. It's not overly complicated, which is nice. It's something you can kind of fall into and just cozy up and read, and it's not overly gruesome, which is great. It's a good one, and it has a little bit of a sprinkle of romance in there, which is super sweet. But I just love that you decided to go ahead and publish your novel and it's your first one at your age. I think that's great, because you can do anything at any time, is my point.

Speaker 1:

Right, and as you go on, it's important in life to keep your creative side up. It's important to accomplish things and, like you said, it's never too late to start something new.

Speaker 2:

No, it's not. It's truly not. Yes, I agree, it's never too late to start something new, and we started this just this year.

Speaker 1:

I started this mainly just to hang out with you.

Speaker 2:

Well, it worked.

Speaker 1:

It worked absolutely I love that Trigger.

Speaker 2:

warnings today are animal cruelty just the mention of nothing specific stalking and murder.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and I heard about this recently and in the backdrop of one of the largest serial killer investigations in US history, a letter a handwritten letter from the happy face killer to the Gilgo Beach murder suspect, rex Hearman, was recently brought to light here. As we know, we cover this in our podcast. Rex Hearman is being held in the Suffolk County Jail in New York, entered a plea of not guilty For three counts of murder in the deaths of Melissa Bartholomew, megan Waterman and Amber Costello. He is also suspect in the fourth murder of Maureen Brainerd Barnes, but he hasn't been charged with that yet and we're thinking that there are probably many, many more cases in addition to that Many. But now we find out that Hearman has been exchanging messages with convicted serial killer Keith Jesperson, more widely known as the happy face killer.

Speaker 2:

That's crazy. I don't. That's interesting that they're allowed to do that. I don't love that. I don't love that. Well, I guess. But I guess, like they are just waiting to see if they say something stupid or if, like, they can figure out why they're talking, or they're probably like baiting them a little bit. Maybe, which is interesting, and it's funny that they'll continue to talk to each other because, like especially for Rex Hearman, is Rex running back?

Speaker 1:

Yes, he wrote back.

Speaker 2:

That's insane. That's insane because it makes him look so guilty. Why would he do that?

Speaker 1:

Well, he hasn't been a guilt or anything, but yeah, I know, but him just like.

Speaker 2:

Knowing and writing another serial killer is insane.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2:

Like it makes you look so, so guilty.

Speaker 1:

So I didn't know much about. I knew about the happy face killer, and you and I used to watch a television show that had something called the Smiley face killer. Oh, the Mentalist. Yeah, the Mentalist, which is a great show.

Speaker 2:

That one was good, it was but also the main guy is well, yeah, I mean, all the crime shows are disturbing, right, but the main guy. I remember liking like his character at first, and now that I look back I'm like, oh my God, he's so annoying.

Speaker 1:

His character.

Speaker 2:

His last name was Jane, right yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I do like that as a last name though.

Speaker 1:

But, like Jessperson, I didn't know much about. I knew very little about the case or the happy face killer over and above just the name. So Jessperson, who murdered at least eight women across the US in the 1990s.

Speaker 2:

Sounds like a prick.

Speaker 1:

At least wrote to Hewerman encouraging him to come clean and confess if he is indeed guilty. That's so weird. Why would he write that with a book? He penned a handwritten letter to other serial killers in the past, so he's not unusual for him to do this kind of thing.

Speaker 2:

Okay, that's interesting, were they all the same?

Speaker 1:

I guess. So I mean just a little Interesting. So Hewerman reportedly replied as part of it, saying thank you for your letter and for your advice. Oh, they've been a help and a comfort to me. I understand what you said and I've taken it to heart. Now. Jessperson sent Hewerman's response to a podcaster for safekeeping.

Speaker 2:

Oh, what podcaster.

Speaker 1:

I'll get to that later.

Speaker 2:

Oh okay, sorry, don't let me, don't, let me drag it out.

Speaker 1:

There's no word if the correspondence between Jessperson and Hewerman will continue. Meanwhile, the Hewerman family is slated to make a million dollars from a documentary about Hewerman. Let's delve a little bit into who Keith Hunter Jessperson actually is. He's a Canadian-American serial killer who murdered at least eight women in the United States in the 1990s. He's known as the happy face killer so creepy Because he drew smiley happy faces on many letters between the media and the police authorities.

Speaker 2:

So he would like write to them and like bait them kind of.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I'll get into it in a minute, but it was more of a hey, this is my gig, not someone else's. So let's see Many of the victims this little son from there were sex workers and transient people who had no connection to him.

Speaker 2:

Yep, I mean, I feel like, and we know this, we know that people pick them out because they think that they have unstable lives and no one will miss them. But that's not true.

Speaker 1:

Right. It's becoming increasingly harder to do because we're now much more of a connected society.

Speaker 2:

I think that and, like people, have forced the authorities to look into when sex workers go missing, because they are still people. They deserve to have justice.

Speaker 1:

So strangulation was Jessperson's preferred method of murdering.

Speaker 2:

Scary.

Speaker 1:

The same method is often used by many killers, but something also that there seems to be a connection with children who murder small animals and they tend to, you know, strangulate them as well.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's horrible. That's the worst. That's one of the worst things I've ever pictured. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

That's so sad. It's a common theme in childhood for serial killers and there have been many Like. It was something that happened with Jeffrey Dahmer, ted Bundy, gary Ridgway and John Wayne Gasey, just to name a few. In a study by Bowie State University in the criminal justice department, it says that this is one of the strongest warning signs. Children who torture or kill small animals like squirrels, birds, cats, dogs, without showing any remorse are highly likely to be sociopaths. Many serial killers kill to control others and children. Killing small animals and that sort of thing is a way for them to control and kill something smaller than them that they can control.

Speaker 2:

That is so creepy. I mean I don't even know what I would do if that happened, Like if you had a child and they were killing animals. I mean, obviously take them therapy, but that's so scary.

Speaker 1:

Right and there's a big golf, there's a big delta there between like, for example. I've told you before that when I was younger I went hunting out of necessity way back in the day and we went deer hunting and that sort of thing. Very different thing to teaching your child how to hunt, than teaching your child or not teaching your child, but noticing that your children is killing smaller animals. It's a really big red flag and some of the other signals according to this.

Speaker 2:

That, but also I do think that, like you said, it's like a delta or it's like a range, right? So I think that people who, especially children, who, enjoy hunting for sport no need for meat, no need for whatever is not a great thing. I think, like wanting to kill something is concerning.

Speaker 1:

I went hunting when I was a child Like I think it was eight or nine or something like that.

Speaker 2:

This is literally the craziest story.

Speaker 1:

This is the most terrible thing in the world and, like I said, out of necessity. But a week later, I saw.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because your family was literally eating the meat, right yeah.

Speaker 1:

I saw a Bambi for the first time and I cried my eyes out. I'm like, oh my God, I killed Bambi's dad. I mean, it was just a terrible thing.

Speaker 2:

I bet you never went hunting again. No, I did. Oh, you did because you had to Right. No, never mind.

Speaker 1:

At this point in my life? No, I do not hunt anymore.

Speaker 2:

Literally that's traumatic, I can't believe it.

Speaker 2:

I'm weeping in the theater right. I mean I teared up when I first saw Bambi and I had never shot anything, thankfully. But it's just, I understand, I understand and I don't want to be too much of a hypocrite because I do eat like poultry and fish, but it is not a pleasant thing. Killing an animal is never pleasant and I understand that we do it as a society for means to feed ourselves and for other things that we need from the animal. Like I get that, but I think when someone enjoys it too much, especially as a child, make note of that.

Speaker 1:

I would just make note of that. I'll tell you one thing when that happened and I become a little more insulated from it I went hunting for several years.

Speaker 2:

You become like disconnected a little.

Speaker 1:

A little bit, but every time that I did that, every time that happened, even if we were just hunting smaller things like rabbits or squirrels or whatever, if I shot something, I felt somehow less. It diminished me in some way, and that's just me personally. I'm not taking a stand on hunting or anything like that, but for me as a child, I felt truly bad about it, which is in great contrast to what we're talking about here. Other things that they said from this study from Bowie State was antisocial behavior, arson.

Speaker 2:

Yes, arson's a big one.

Speaker 1:

A poor family life. Many of these cases also have instances of childhood abuse. Yeah, substance abuse. I can see that Voyeurism.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. Yes, that's the other one I know of the big three. That's like voyeurism, arson and killing animals. It's like the triad of terrifying this as a trial.

Speaker 1:

Some other things that the study came across was the fact that most of these people have higher than normal intelligence. I don't believe that that's just what this thing said Higher than normal intelligence and sometimes problem solving abilities that are.

Speaker 2:

Maybe problem solving. I can see that, but I don't know if they're actually, like, smarter than us More like genus level.

Speaker 1:

I'm just saying that they're not.

Speaker 2:

They're not simple people.

Speaker 1:

But something interesting also was the fact that shiplessness is what it said in the laziness, in other words, that they know they have a high intelligence, but they don't ever really put that into anything for a positive effect.

Speaker 2:

That's a tough one to figure out Well it's a tough one to figure out in children, especially teenagers, because I know a few lazy teenagers.

Speaker 1:

So, in terms of Jesperson, after the body of his first victim, tanya Bennett, was found, media attention surrounded a lady by the name of Laverne Pavlina, who was a woman who falsely confessed to having killed Bennett Interesting With the help of her abusive boyfriend Johns Noslowski.

Speaker 2:

That's really random.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and this was in February of 1990. The police thought that they had a massive breakthrough in the Tanya Bennett murder when Pavlina called and implicated her partner Sosnoski, and she said that she overheard him talking and bragging about killing Tanya and even went so far as to confess that she helped him dump the body. Wow, this was on ABC's 2020 Happy Face Killer Chronicles. That's crazy. Tanya's gruesome death was portrayed there and how the entire country was actually shocked that Laverne actually had confessed to this.

Speaker 2:

And she confessed to him killing her. She was trying to get away from her abusive husband. Probably Not that that's OK. Of course, you should never confess to anything that you didn't do, Right.

Speaker 1:

Now the actual murder. Who was Jess Person was upset that he wasn't getting any media attention.

Speaker 2:

What a psycho.

Speaker 1:

So he drew a smiley face or a happy face on a bathroom wall hundreds of miles from the scene of the crime and wrote an anonymous letter confessing to Bennett's murder, providing proof. Even when that didn't elicit a response, he began writing letters to media and the police authorities.

Speaker 2:

It's like the Zodiac Killer.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, but not as advanced. Jess Person's last victim was the crime that, ultimately, he led to his capture. While he was claiming to have killed as many as 160 people, only eight murders had been confirmed. Jess Person is currently serving a sentence of life without parole in the Oregon State Penitentiary.

Speaker 2:

Thank God, we're not close.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

But we have covered a few cases. Listen back, because we've covered a few cases where the prisoners escape.

Speaker 1:

Right, absolutely so. Jess Person was born in 1955 to Leslie and Gladys Jess Person in Chilliwack, british Columbia, canada. So he was the middle child. He had two brothers and two sisters. Jess Person's father was domineering alcoholic and, according to Jess Person, his parental grandfather was prone to fits of violence.

Speaker 2:

I feel like that's common back then, right? I feel like a lot of fathers and grandfathers back in the day were unhinged, not controlling their anger. They just didn't need to.

Speaker 1:

Right and, for his part, jess Person's father denied being an abusive parents. However, while investigating for his book on the killer, author Jack Olson was able to confirm that much of the claimed abuse of the family was in fact correct.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I believe it.

Speaker 1:

Jess Person was a middle child. He was treated like an outcast and a black sheep, even in his own family, and he was teased by the other children. For his size, he was a very large person. Jess Person was a lonely kid and showed a propensity to torture and kill small animals like we said, that is terrifying.

Speaker 1:

And after moving to it Sela Washington in the United States. He had trouble fitting in because he was enormous size. His brother didn't help matters by calling him Igor or Eeg, the name that stuck with him throughout his four years of high school because of this.

Speaker 1:

Jesperson was a child, child and Content to play by himself much of the time. He would often get into trouble for behaving badly, and sometimes violently, and Would be punished by his father. This included beating, and sometimes with a belt, sometimes not, and in one case, he claimed, with electric shock.

Speaker 2:

Oh my god, that's Cruel and unusual.

Speaker 1:

Not, not. Not excusing Jesperson in any way, shape or form, no, but you can feel bad blueprint for creating a monster.

Speaker 2:

I mean, but you can feel bad for a child who's being abused, like even if they go on to abuse someone like you can feel bad. You know there's there's enough Duality there to like feel bad for their young child self.

Speaker 1:

For sure like and I really ate, she's like five and just would capture and torture animals. He enjoyed watching animals dying.

Speaker 2:

I'm so scary.

Speaker 1:

As he continued, older Jesperson would capitalize and capture birds and stray dogs and stray cats Around the trailer park where he lived. So you're really beating the animals and strangling them to death. Sometimes he plays. His father would be proud of him for not being afraid of the animal.

Speaker 2:

So I wow, did we look into the father? Is he also a serial killer? Like that is terrifying. That's a great question right.

Speaker 1:

What so that desire to manifest and murder things? It really kind of took hold. And then the first thing that happened when Jesperson was around the age of 10. This first happened when Jesperson was around the age of 10 when he and his friend, a boy named Martin. The two would often get into trouble together and Jesperson claimed that he would often Be punished, and punished Martin many times to shift blame away from himself. This led Jesperson to violently attack Martin, until his father had to pull them away. Wow, he later claimed that his intention was to kill the boy. Oh my god. Approximately one year later, jesperson was swimming in the lake when another boy held him under water until he blacked out.

Speaker 2:

Who who blacked out?

Speaker 1:

Sometimes. Later, at a local public poll, jesperson attempted to drown the same boy by holding his head under water until the lifeguard Pulled them away. So there were some signs with this kid, lots of signs, yeah. And once again, you know, mental health intervention at that point would have been now. This was a long time ago. This was back when you kind of just kind of went out. You know he's a little weird.

Speaker 2:

That's why I think we see so many serial killers that are like a little older, right. Like I am not saying there won't be any in the future I'm sure there will be. There's always evil people Doing evil things but I do think that, like, access to mental health services can help people.

Speaker 1:

You know, fight those urges if they do have them right Jesperson also reported that when he was 14, he was raped.

Speaker 2:

Oh, it's, very sad.

Speaker 1:

He graduated from high school in 1973 but did not attend college because his father thought he couldn't do it. Wow, although Jesperson was not successful, you know, with girls in high school, he did enter a relationship after high school. In 1975, when Jesperson was about 20 years old, he married Rose Huck and they had a couple children. They had three children in fact two daughters and one son. Jesperson worked as a truck driver to support his family, which is another thing that leads, because it's kind of transit, because you're all over the place, because you're a Way yeah, it really is kind of scary, it really is.

Speaker 1:

So several years later Huck became became suspicious that Jesperson having affairs when strange women would call and tensions in the marriage. Marriage increased and after 14 years, while Jesperson was away on the road, huck packed the children and the belongings and drove 200 miles away to live with her parents and spoke hand over her. So his oldest daughter is named Melissa and she was 10 years old when Jesperson, you know, was separated from the children. We'll talk about her more in a second here. At 35, jesperson stood about six foot seven. Wow, 255 pounds.

Speaker 2:

So he is indeed a huge my best friend is 511, her boyfriend is 6 4, and they are huge people, right. So that's three more inches.

Speaker 1:

That's crazy right, and he was 255 pounds. Oh my god, that kind of started me thinking. You know, he's very similar to Rex Hureman in that way. Humans, like a big over of a person, but this is a funny, not you?

Speaker 2:

not you insulting the serial killers Jesus.

Speaker 1:

So so interestingly, when he was about 35, he tried to join the Royal Canadian Mounted Police but suffered an injury while he was training, and that's what turned him away from that, and he became a truck driver shortly.

Speaker 2:

I'm thankful that he did not become a police officer. I think we would have. It would have been a long time coming trying to catch him. Yeah, if he was on the force, that would have been a lot.

Speaker 1:

So, as stated before, jesperson was about six seven. He was about 255 pounds. Hureman is somewhere between Six five and six seven, with a very similar weight. Both of them victimized homeless women and sex workers. Both of them seem to think about manual strangulation as their means of killing people so scary, and both were assumed to have killed many, many people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I think that kind of urge doesn't Doesn't yeah, doesn't go away after one time. That's so scary.

Speaker 1:

So Jesperson recommended in his letter to Hureman that he confess, to avoid giving the prosecution the chance to gloat about finding evidence and to avoid this and avoid the spectacle of a child. All about ego the letter he said he told a host of a podcast interestingly, keith rover that Hureman moaned about his conditions in jail from, you know, the dry bread to the gloomy exercise in the dry bread. Yeah, I guess I don't give them butter.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I what? I think you have bigger problems here, roman than dry bread Right.

Speaker 1:

Robert Specialized is interviewing serial killers from prison and told the Daily Mail that he was not seeking to glamorize or justify their actions. He said that he wants to explain them as people and rarely discusses the details of the crime.

Speaker 2:

That's really interesting. So what does he discuss on the podcast? Like their upbringing and stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what led them to this? What are you thinking? How did this come about? That sort of thing? That's really interesting. Melissa Moore, who's the daughter of Jesperson, is a TikToker with more than 160,000 followers Wow. She's also an Emmy-nominated crime correspondent for the Dr Oz Show, wow, and the executive producer of I Heart Radio's number one podcast, happy Face. Melissa is recognized as an expert on topics of recovery, domestic violence, serial violence and trauma. She was raised by her mother, melissa Jesperson, and she is, as I said, the daughter of the happy face killer.

Speaker 2:

Is she the oldest?

Speaker 1:

She's the oldest. She's the one that was 10.

Speaker 2:

So she has memories.

Speaker 1:

Sure, she was 10 years old. She grew up in a small town in Washington State. She survived the escalating trauma from her home life and the man she called dad, who turned out to be an absolute monster. That's crazy she also wrote a book. It's called Whole A Guide to Self-Repair in 2016, and it's available via Random House.

Speaker 2:

That is insane.

Speaker 1:

See, I don't know how I feel about them being able to communicate with one another, and I know it's not available in every state. I know it's not, you know, but I don't know. I don't know that I like the fact that they're writing back and forth. I know it's, you know, a protected right, but I don't know how I feel about it.

Speaker 2:

Well, I don't know if it is actually. I don't think it is a protected right to correspond with someone else in prison. They're not supposed to be talking to each other when they get outside of prison. So I'm not sure.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a state-by-state thing whether they can do that or not.

Speaker 2:

Well, I know that, like you're, I thought you were not allowed to continue conversation with prisoners after you're out, and I know they're still in, but like, right, that's interesting.

Speaker 1:

So, as you said before, I think it's. I think it's really a bad idea for Hewerman to actually even acknowledge her right back and forth with this person because he could incriminate himself. I'm actually hoping he does, but I mean, you know, from his standpoint, I'm not sure why you would do that. Now he hasn't said anything, Because ego.

Speaker 2:

I feel like that's the biggest thing with these, like zero killers or, like you know, just people who take lives in general that are not accidents. You know, like murderers, real murderers. I feel like they often have like such a big ego they're like I'll never get caught. If I did get caught, you got lucky, like you know this, that whatever, like they think they're literally, they think they're God. You know, like they have like a narcissistic personality disorder, most of them.

Speaker 1:

So in some cases, like Jack the Ripper or the Zodiac killer, they never were actually captured.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, right, Exactly, and many more right. So. And then there was the Golden Gate Killer that got captured via DNA, which was crazy. He really thought he got away with it. He really thought he got away with it.

Speaker 1:

So I've often thought that you know, when I retire which isn't super far down the road that I go back and get a degree in genealogy and how it applies to DNA research. Yeah, because I love to learn new things and I love the fact that you could actually help solve a crime and bring you know healing to a family that had been suffering, and whether that family is the you know is the perpetrator or the victim, I think it's such a fulfilling thing. I think I, you know, might actually do that.

Speaker 2:

You should, and you know the other thing, we're getting off on a tangent a little bit.

Speaker 1:

A little bit.

Speaker 2:

But I feel like one thing that like they really need to, like teach other texts to do or like volunteers or something, is testing the rape kits, because there's a huge backlog, like some 10 years have still not been tested.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a huge issue and so sad and it costs money to test these and sometimes, like the people, have to pay for it themselves. Oh wow.

Speaker 1:

That's terrible, yeah, it's disgusting actually.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, if they want them to like be moved up on the list and stuff, sometimes they'll have to pay for them. It's really sad.

Speaker 1:

That is awful it is. But I do love the fact that after decades and decades, some cases are being solved because of the DNA Because of the DNA.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know it is really, really exciting to see that like one person in their family is like I'd want to see like my DNA or blah, blah, blah, whatever See what I'm made of and then literally they end up putting like their creepy people in their family away.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Absolutely, Absolutely, and yeah, I think it's a really great thing that Melissa actually has done something positive and is helping change people's lives. Because one thing I didn't mention a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about, when we were talking about Stacey Peterson's disappearance Melissa Moore actually went to Peterson's son, Steven, and Stacey's and, I'm sorry, Kathleen Salvia's sister got them together and that yeah, you're looking at me like that's not a great idea and I didn't think it was a great idea.

Speaker 2:

No, I do think it is a good idea.

Speaker 1:

But it was interesting because he was able to actually Kind of apologized. He had no idea because he was a younger person at that point.

Speaker 2:

He was a child.

Speaker 1:

Oh well, when they finally found out, when he was finally convicted he was, he was like a later in a teenager, maybe he was 20 or something. I think he'd actually become a police officer about the same time that that drew Peterson was arrested and so on because she raised son?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because he raised some of the children of those two women. You know Melissa Moore got the two together to kind of create some of you know look like a bonding because it was like you know. He kind of apologized and she said I've always apologized.

Speaker 2:

I'm so confused. Well, because, you.

Speaker 1:

I guess you would feel I know I would feel if I found that my father was a monster. Yeah, and I didn't see it. I feel badly about that.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, but also as a child and even as an adult, like if you don't see something like right there's nothing. I mean, the person who is committing the heinous crimes is the only one that's that should be accountable, right? Anyone who knows something? Yes, if you suspect something, you should say something, of course, but you know, I think we carry a lot of guilt and I Understand where and why, but it truly is not that falls right, exactly.

Speaker 1:

But, like I said, if something great comes out of it, if there's a healing, if there's a bonding between those two families, then then then great. And Melissa Moore, great job. And I'm glad you took something that was awful and returning it into something that's wonderful. So we'll actually, you know what the Her podcast and the information from the other podcast that actually speaks to those folks will put in the the notes, in the story notes here. So if you are curious and wanted to check out that or buy the book or whatever, which I encourage you to do, then that'll be available in the show notes as well.

Speaker 2:

It's a great idea and we're gonna keep on following up on Matthew Grant. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on and remember. All of the source material will be available in the show notes and follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the shadows and let us know if you want to hear a specific case or If you just want to give us some feedback. Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.

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