Jeffrey Epstein- The list

Discover the unsettling truths behind Jeffrey Epstein's criminal network as Jameson Keys and I, Caroline, peel back the layers of his infamous legacy. Our latest episode brings to light the harrowing consequences of Epstein's actions and the complex intersections of wealth, power, and the quest for justice. Join us for an unflinching examination of how Epstein's vast and sordid operations—spanning private islands and the notorious Lolita Express—were facilitated by systemic failures, and the shocking leniency of his 2008 plea deal.

As the web of Epstein's influence unravels, we scrutinize the aftermath of his mysterious death and its implications for his high-profile circle. We grapple with the names entangled in his narrative, from presidents to magicians, and dissect what their associations with Epstein truly signify. The enigma of Epstein's demise, compounded by Ghislaine Maxwell's trial and the curious case of Jean-Luc Brunel, leads us down a path of conspiracy theories and pressing questions about the accountability of those in power.

Our episode culminates with a fervent discussion on the judicial response to Epstein's transgressions, advocating for stringent punishment for perpetrators of such heinous acts. We invite you, our listeners, to join the dialogue by connecting with us on social media and sharing your thoughts. As we sign off, we're reminded that justice for the victims remains a battle worth fighting, and each voice raised in solidarity brings us closer to shedding light on these crimes that for too long have lurked in the shadows.

The Mirror/US Charlie Jones 1-4-24

NEWSWEEK 1-3-2024

ABC News 2-19-22 Ali Dukakis

New York Times 12-7-2021 James C. Mckinley Jr.

Business Insider 1-5-2024 Madeline Berg

Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com



Background music by Michael Shuller Music 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:11

Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the Shadows.

Speaker 2 0:14

A Father Daughter True Crime Podcast.

Speaker 1 0:16

My name is Jameson Keyes.

Speaker 2 0:17

I'm Caroline. Hello all, happy New Year. I hope your year has been going so well. How's yours?

Speaker 1 0:26

Good, so far Good. I'm short sample size, but so far so good, absolutely.

Speaker 2 0:31

True, yeah, I got a little sick right after New Year's, so mine has been full of resting, full of tea, full of cough drops, but, you know, slowly and surely getting back into perfect health for the next new year.

Speaker 1 0:47

One thing I didn't know when I made up my mind to be an author was the process, not only just the creation of the book process, but the actual getting it to market and getting it printed and looking over proofs and all that kind of thing. It's an exhausted process, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:01

I'm sure it's a lot of work.

Speaker 1 1:04

But I was able to push myself. I'd started the second novel and I've already started that. I'm probably 15 or 18 chapters in.

Speaker 2 1:12

And it's a sequel, it's a sequel yeah. It's exciting. So if you pick it up when you pick it up, you'll have the other one coming next year.

Speaker 1 1:20

Maybe even at the end of this year. I like to. Yeah, the one mistake I made probably was the fact that I missed the Christmas song. I was in the cycle, so I'm not going to make that same mistake again.

Speaker 2 1:30

That is exciting. We'll keep you guys up to date on when the book launches and where you can find it, but let's jump into it, all right. Trigger warnings today are human trafficking, rape and sexual assault, and mention of possible murder Absolutely.

Speaker 1 1:50

And we've done. I guess we've done what More than one episode on human trafficking, and especially we did one on this side of freedom, which is a movie that came out last summer.

Speaker 2 2:00

Yeah yeah, human trafficking is a sadly common crime.

Speaker 1 2:05

Right, and even more so in Native American communities and in often.

Speaker 2 2:10

They're typically the victims, yeah.

Speaker 1 2:12

Right, exactly. Yeah, that's what I mean, but yeah, so really any minority is typically the victim, though. Right.

Speaker 2 2:18

And women in general.

Speaker 1 2:21

But a Native American woman, are disproportionately.

Speaker 2 2:23

Yes, definitely.

Speaker 1 2:25

Yeah, murder is the third leading cause of death among Native American women, which is insane.

Speaker 2 2:31

It is insane, that's I mean, it's tragic.

Speaker 1 2:34

But today it's not. We're not talking about today Today. In the last week or so, there've been more and more information that's come out about Jeffrey Epstein Ugh, as you recall, jeffrey Epstein and also there was a document released earlier this week that had 90 names of people that were just released by the judge in one of the cases and this was a case from 2015 or 16, I guess, and it was one of his victims that all the names were guarded for quite some time, but they've been released this week.

Speaker 2 3:08

One of his victims released the names.

Speaker 1 3:10

The court actually released the.

Speaker 2 3:12

One of his victims did what?

Speaker 1 3:13

She was the one that was being deposed at that time. Okay, and that's where all these names came from, got you? It's important to say that not all the names you're seeing coming out right now had anything to do or anything inappropriate happen. They were just mentioned as she was being deposed, and if the name is mentioned, then it goes into the court records.

Speaker 2 3:33

So why would they be mentioned if they're not involved in some way?

Speaker 1 3:37

Some are Okay, and some of the names that you're going to see on this big list include people that had knowledge of something, they witnessed something, or they were at a party or they could speak to the state of mind like maybe someone knew of someone's schedule. That doesn't mean anything in terms of them being involved with anything inappropriate. That just means that they were mentioned in the trial.

Speaker 2 4:01

So it means that they could have been involved with something inappropriate and some of them probably were and it also couldn't mean that they were in close proximity to someone who may have been, or they had some inner working knowledge.

Speaker 1 4:13

Or they just had knowledge. Yeah, absolutely. So. Yeah, it's important in this scenario not to pay with too broad of a brush.

Speaker 2 4:19

So could they be totally innocent of anything?

Speaker 1 4:21

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 4:23

But they did have knowledge of something.

Speaker 1 4:24

Or they were mentioned in the trial.

Speaker 2 4:26

But why would they be mentioned if they didn't have knowledge in it?

Speaker 1 4:28

Well, we'll get into that here in a little bit, but yeah, so it's important to mention this. Wasn't the client list that everyone thought it was? The 90 names were just people that were mentioned in one form or fashion or had something to do with that trial of Miss Dufresne.

Speaker 2 4:45

And the list is scary.

Speaker 1 4:47

It is, it's terrifying.

Speaker 2 4:48

The net worth altogether would be ridiculous, like what the fuck.

Speaker 1 4:54

Well, you know what, and that's the thing, and that's the thing we're going to talk about a little bit more, but it's important to know that there's a whole different section of humanity that is involved with these things. Very wealthy in this country and across the world Do things sometimes not always not paying, like I said, with a broad brush, but in this scenario there are a lot of wealthy, wealthy people that felt like maybe they were above the law, that could do whatever they wanted to do and get away with it.

Speaker 1 5:21

And a lot of cases for a long time they did.

Speaker 2 5:24

Yeah, literally, you know, up until recently I think, with access to technology, access to photos and videos broadly, I think so many people got away with so much, no, before DNA yeah, oh, my gosh, before DNA, of course, but I mean, it's horrible.

Speaker 1 5:40

So we're at the epicenter of this, and what we're going to be talking about today is just a little bit about Jeffrey Epstein. Now, you've heard the name, you've seen some of the information on television, but who the hell was this horrendous person?

Speaker 2 5:51

A prick.

Speaker 1 5:52

Yes, but where did he come from, and that sort of thing. So we're going to kind of focus on that. So Jeffrey Epstein was born on January 28th of 1953 in Brooklyn, new York. Now, he didn't come from a wealthy family, you know, even though throughout his very successful financial career, epstein became a multi-millionaire and developed a large social circle that included extremely wealthy individuals, prominent politicians and even royalty Gross. But Epstein himself his mother, for example, was a homemaker and his father worked as a groundskeeper and gardener for the New York City Central Park Department.

Speaker 1 6:33

Epstein was a talented student who excelled in mathematics. He also was a skilled pianist. He attended Lafayette High School in Graves End, brooklyn, and many of whose students' body were Italian-Americans, and so on. He graduated in 1969, having skipped two grades. Later that year, he enrolled in Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Arts, where he studied until 1971, when he transferred to Caranth Institute of Mathematics and Social Science. That's a subsection of the University of New York, nyu. He studied at NYU for three years but didn't graduate. Despite that, in 1974, having not graduated, he began teaching physics and mathematics.

Speaker 2 7:21

How is that possible?

Speaker 1 7:22

Jesus 1974. He began teaching physics and mathematics at Dalton School in Manhattan, many of whose students belong to some of the wealthiest families in the country.

Speaker 2 7:36

Could you imagine if you look back and you're like, yeah, my physics teacher was actually a sex trafficker. Yeah, that's awful. That is terrifying that he had access to children.

Speaker 1 7:47

Absolutely, and during a parent teacher conference in 1976, epstein so impressed a student's father with his intelligence that the parent referred Epstein to a gentleman by the name of Allen Ace Greenberg, then the CEO of Wall Street Investment Firm, barron Stearns. Also, one of his children was a Dalton parent. Following the 1975-76 school year, epstein was dismissed from the position at Dalton because the evaluations taught to his teaching skills had not improved, and at that point he began working at Barron Stearn.

Speaker 2 8:24

I don't even know what to say. That's a lot, because I had no idea he was a teacher. That's scary. And then the fact that they how is he like impressing the parents so much with his knowledge, but then they're thinking he's not teaching well enough, like I'm interesting.

Speaker 1 8:39

We had no skill in teaching. He had a great deal of knowledge, but he hadn't gone through the process, finished off, got a teaching degree or anything like that. He was just teaching because he was a brilliant guy, jesus, in 1980, that was four years after joining Barron Stearn they made him a limited partner in 1981. Oh my gosh, he left the company in order to start his own business. Some of his associates during the 1980s started referring to him as a bounty hunter and he helped wealthy, wealthy families recover money that had been stolen from them In 1988.

Speaker 2 9:16

Basically.

Speaker 1 9:17

Well, in scams, in like Bernie Madoff type scandals and things like that, Ponzi schemes.

Speaker 2 9:23

No, I'm saying how did he get it back?

Speaker 1 9:25

Physically? That's a great question. Yes, it was very aware of the different financial systems and so on, so maybe at that point in time it was an easier proposition to track it and get the money back for the people, yikes. Okay, so we founded the J Epstein company, a consulting firm that provided money management services to individuals with a net worth of get this more than a billion dollars. His major client for some 20 years was billionaire retail magnet Leslie H Wexner.

Speaker 2 10:01

Oh yeah.

Epstein's Criminal Activities and Mysterious Death

Speaker 1 10:01

God. In 1990, epstein began running his business from the island of St Thomas in the US Virgin Islands, a tax haven, where he owned a small island nearby called Little St Thomas Little St James. Later he purchased another island in the same vicinity called Great St James. He also owned what was one of the largest private mansions in Manhattan, as well as properties in Palm Beach, florida, and Paris and New Mexico. It was said that Epstein had hidden cameras at his Manhattan residence to record sex ass performed by some of his wealthy associates, probably for the use of blackmail.

Speaker 2 10:41

Oh my God, why is anyone going there to have sex with? Like what the hell?

Speaker 1 10:46

Because he was a purveyor, because he was trafficking yes, Women right. Young women, very young women?

Speaker 2 10:51

Oh no, not women. Little girls, little girls, yikes.

Speaker 1 10:54

He also kept a log of those who traveled on his private jet. And I've looked at this thing and it's 161 pages. It's crazy. And the number of people and some of the people would kind of surprise you. So he traveled to the private island from Manhattan and from Teterboro and basically to the Virgin Islands, and they called this. Some of the people called this the Lolita Express in reference to Vladimir Nabokov's novel Lolita in 1955, whose antihero was a middle-aged man who was obsessed with lustful thoughts for very, very young girls.

Speaker 2 11:30

So a pedophile.

Speaker 1 11:31

So a pedophile.

Speaker 2 11:32

Right.

Speaker 1 11:33

And among the people that was listed on the flights were a lot of notable people Former presidents Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. Gross, the prominent attorney and Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz oh God. And Prince Andrew Duke York, who was eventually accused of repeatedly having sex with one of Epstein's underage victims.

Speaker 2 11:55

Disgusting.

Speaker 1 11:57

So he traveled along and did this for quite some time. In Palm Beach in 2005, epstein was first accused of sexual abuse. A woman who claimed her stepdaughter had been abused by a wealthy man named Jeff and alerted police. The federal Bureau of Investigation, or FBI, was soon involved and further accusations surfaced and by the time the US Attorney General, and later the Secretary of Labor under President Trump, alexander Acosta, began to put together a criminal case. The number of alleged victims were about 40. Eventually, despite a wealth of evidence, the government entered a plea deal in 2008 that saw Epstein serve only 13 months in prison. What the fuck, with a provision allowing him to work at his Palm Beach office six days a week?

Speaker 2 12:47

But he was, yeah, he just had to come home and sleep or he had to go to the prison sleep when he was allowed to leave. Yeah, that was insane. Of course I'm not even surprised because literally rich, wealthy, especially white men, they get away with fucking murder. It's disgusting, Literally in some cases. I know it's horrible.

Speaker 1 13:06

Acosta later stated that the deal was lenient because intelligence officials had told him to back off Epstein.

Speaker 2 13:14

I'm disgusted. I hope they literally are also serving time I don't believe they are.

Speaker 1 13:19

I'm sure they're not.

Speaker 2 13:20

I'm sure they're not. They're like. Who said that I don't know, I don't what, that wasn't me.

Speaker 1 13:25

In 2018, an investigative reporter for the Miami Herald identified some 80 survivors of sexual abuse by Epstein and his associates.

Speaker 2 13:33

That is actually so tragic. Like I, just 80 children, 80 children that were literally assaulted by American royalty or America's wealthiest. It's disgusting.

Speaker 1 13:48

So the expose led to the renewal and examination of the sex crime allegations against Epstein. In 2019, authorities brought a second criminal case against him. Thank God, he was arrested in July in New Jersey at the Tudor Bar Airport, where that flight always went on out of, on charges of sex trafficking and held without bail. Thank God, later that month, epstein was found in his Manhattan jail cell with injuries consistent with suicide hanging.

Speaker 2 14:13

Yeah, I remember this all happening.

Speaker 1 14:16

Less than a week later, however, he was taken off the suicide watch. He didn't kill himself the first time.

Speaker 2 14:22

Oh, I didn't know it was on suicide watch Interesting.

Speaker 1 14:25

Well and, but that's the thing. On the eve of Epstein's death, one of the one of the things about being on suicide watch, you know they take away your, your shoestrings and all that sort of thing, and you're also monitored very, very regularly and you always have a cellmate, so they're never alone. Oh interesting, but on the eve of Epstein's death his cellmate was removed but not replaced, and for approximately three hours the guards did not check on Epstein.

Speaker 2 14:50

Sounds strange.

Speaker 1 14:51

In a violation of the jails protocol Nice. In addition, you'll find this interesting the cameras outside the cell apparently malfunction.

Speaker 2 14:57

Of course always. Oh my God, that's so ridiculous. I wonder who got that approved.

Speaker 1 15:02

I wonder. Although official state autopsy had ruled Epstein's death of suicide, the disgraced magnates lawyers have argued that the evidence points towards murder. His death and the circumstances surrounding it have been a subject of much conjecture. In the aftermath of the death, his long-term partner, galeon Maxwell, was convicted in 2021 of aiding Epstein in the procurement of sexual abuse of young girls.

Speaker 2 15:27

I'm so glad she was, because that was ridiculous, the fact that they let her go for so long. Was I just what?

Speaker 1 15:35

She's equally a monster as he is.

Speaker 2 15:37

I mean maybe more so. Yeah, well, I don't know about more so, because he was the one doing it, but she's a woman.

Speaker 1 15:42

I mean, how do you? How do you?

Speaker 2 15:43

Well, we don't hold women to higher standards just because they're women. No, that's true.

Speaker 1 15:46

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 15:48

Because it's like should she know better? Yes, should people who have been in situations where they can get taken advantage of more easily know better? Absolutely, and I mean the men who do this shit is their predators, you know, and so was she, definitely, but I don't think she's more so.

Speaker 1 16:05

Right, but at least Should she know better.

Speaker 2 16:06

Yes, Do I feel like really.

Speaker 1 16:09

Well, she was a predator too. That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 16:14

No, I know that she was also like, apparently sexually assaulting some of the girls too Right. She was literally a pedophile as well.

Names in Released Documents

Speaker 1 16:19

Right, so where the 90 games came from was from the deposition when Mr Frey and her name was Virginia Lee Roberts, but now it's Virginia Lee Roberts Frey. This is from her deposition. Many of the names who appear in the documents released on Wednesday aren't accused of wrongdoing but have only been mentioned in previous legal proceedings or news accounts. The document was released on Wednesday and really want to stress this. This is not his client list, Okay.

Speaker 2 16:52

But it may overlap.

Speaker 1 16:53

Some may overlap, yeah, but some of the names who have done nothing wrong.

Speaker 2 16:57

Then what are they doing?

Speaker 1 16:58

They were just mentioned in the proceedings. Why, but why? Well, I'll get to that in a second. Okay, but some of the interesting names are obviously Maxwell and Mr Frey as well, but also people like Bill Clinton. David Copperfield was also mentioned.

Speaker 2 17:14

I don't know what that is.

Speaker 1 17:16

David Copperfield is a really well-known magician.

Speaker 2 17:18

What the hell.

Speaker 1 17:19

Yeah, he actually is one of the world's highest-paid magicians, earning $46 million in 2020 according to Forbes.

Speaker 2 17:30

What am I doing? How is he making that money?

Speaker 1 17:32

Well, he has a long-standing residency at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. But here's an interesting thing.

Speaker 2 17:37

And a pedophile? Oh wait, no, we don't know.

Speaker 1 17:39

Well, we don't know that, Don't want to say that, okay. However, there are certain things and certain conversations that may lead you down that path. Here's another thing. The interesting thing I thought was you know, epstein bought these little islands to do this and it wasn't in the continuous the traffic with small children. Yeah Right. Interestingly, Copperfield owns 11 private islands in the Bahamas that he rents out. But I'm not saying any direct connection, but there has been. You know, sometimes when there's smoke, there is fire, right?

Speaker 2 18:11

Yeah, Okay, wait. So can you tell me about this list?

Speaker 1 18:14

Sure, so Copperfield's on it, but there are some people like Cameron Diaz is on it, lena Otter DiCaprio is on it, for example.

Speaker 2 18:22

I don't trust anyone who's like making so much money to be of sound mind.

Speaker 1 18:28

Well, but that's just it. When D'afre was questioned about some of these people DiCaprio on Carmen Diaz and a few other people the reason it was in the record was because Epstein was a name dropper. So he would say I know so-and-so and I know so-and-so, so as a part of the prosecution, he had met them.

Speaker 1 18:45

He said that he had met them. But when they asked her do you know Carmen Diaz? Do you know Lena Otter DiCaprio? She said no, I've never met anyone. But their name is technically in. But that's just one survivor. That's just one survivor. But, like I said, so murky Not necessarily Could be, but I mean, just because someone has met someone, it doesn't mean anything at all. No, of course not, but there's been no thought that Carmen Diaz are a leader of DiCaprio.

Speaker 2 19:10

Is it Cameron?

Speaker 1 19:12

Cameron Diaz, and no mention that either one of those had done anything inappropriately. Other features other folks on this list were Louis Freed, who was a former judge. Mr Freed, though, wasn't really they wouldn't say that he was in any way involved in that, but he was called to testify. Mr Freed may have had knowledge of the concerns and the travels of Bill Clinton. That's why he was on the list.

Speaker 2 19:37

So he knew about something.

Speaker 1 19:39

He knew something was going on, but not necessarily what was going on.

Speaker 2 19:42

So he didn't take it upon himself to figure out what it was.

Speaker 1 19:46

Another name that basically popped up on the list was Stephen Hawking. Do you know who Stephen Hawking is?

Speaker 2 19:52

Of course what.

Speaker 1 19:54

So some talk and not substantiated necessarily that he had been to the island.

Speaker 2 19:59

Well, there was a woman who said that someone forced her to perform sexual acts on him.

Speaker 1 20:06

That's just it they called it. The One of the strongest condemnations was from a lady that said that it was called the Clinton Dinner and it happened in the Virgin Islands.

Speaker 2 20:16

The Clinton Dinner.

Speaker 1 20:17

The Clinton Dinner supposedly arranged by Bill Clinton, but once again speculative that Hawking's participated in underage orgy with these folks. But it's not even an orgy, it's literally sexual assault of a minor Right, but anyways, he was never charged with that. He passed away Stephen Hawking, yeah, a few years ago, so that was one of the names on the list. A lot of the names are four or five names that were redacted and the judge said Dear God, I can't even imagine who they were Well no, the judge said the handful of names that were redacted were blacked out because they were people who were identified, that were sexually abused.

Speaker 2 20:55

Okay.

Speaker 1 20:56

Some of the people that were brought up by other people in terms of something possibly did wrong Bill Richardson, who was the late governor of New Mexico. You know, like you said, Donald.

Speaker 2 21:07

I mean that makes sense, because he had property there.

Speaker 1 21:10

Right. So he was like yeah, just come in. Just come over, yeah, because remember, so disgusting Because Epstein had properties in.

Speaker 2 21:16

Florida, new Mexico, new York and St Lucia.

Speaker 1 21:21

Yeah, the Virgin Islands. Well, little jams and no greater jams. So you know, trump has been mentioned in this.

Speaker 2 21:29

I mean he's been mentioned in 30 other cases as well.

Speaker 1 21:32

Well, but there's no charges that are currently against Donald Trump with regard to this, With regard to that right.

Speaker 1 21:38

Right, no, bruce Willis was mentioned. Who was that? Bruce Willis is an actor. He's been in a lot of things, but once again he was just mentioned in it as someone that Epstein had dropped his name. The biggest folks, the ones that are kind of undeniable, is, one of which was Andrew Albert, christian Edward, the Duke of York, and we could do a whole thing on that. Maybe we should, maybe we should, but so much so that he doesn't really come out of England. They tried to get him to the United States to be deposed. He would not come.

Speaker 1 22:09

No, of course not For fear that he would be arrested the second he said, yeah, he would, but you want to believe? He had a really tragic, really really terrible interview with an investigative journalist in Great Britain About this About this and he came off looking even worse. So there's certainly something there. You've seen the pictures of Ms Dufres right, and she was there with him. He had his hand around her.

Speaker 2 22:38

I saw it on the documentary.

Speaker 1 22:39

Oh, you saw a documentary.

Speaker 2 22:40

I think there's a documentary. It's called, I think, Filthy Rich on Netflix.

Speaker 1 22:43

Oh OK.

Speaker 2 22:45

It's very yeah, I don't. I mean, I recommend watching it if you can stomach it, but it's a tough one. It's a tough one. It's like the R Kelly files upset about this because it's just so sick that these men will do this to young girls or young women. It's just like, yeah, like it's actually shocking, like on a human level.

Speaker 1 23:09

But there's also a man named Jean-Luc Bernal, and he was head of a French modeling agency. Oh God, and like Epstein, he passed away while awaiting prosecution. Oh my goodness. Bernal was initially arrested in Charles de Gaulle Airport in December of 2020, according to the Paris prosecutor, Bernal was initially held in context with the rape of a minor in trafficking.

Speaker 2 23:34

In relation to Epstein. Oh, totally different, totally different.

Speaker 1 23:38

He was a friend of Epstein, of course I looked at. There's a log that you can look online of Epstein's flight, because when you file a flight plan you have to file it with the FAA and you have to tell where you're going, your departure, your destination and who's on the plane. And you saw this Jean-Luc Bernal's name on there many, many times. People would say they're in cahoots in some way.

Speaker 2 24:02

Literally.

Speaker 1 24:03

But I know, because both he and Epstein are now dead and both he and Epstein hung themselves in a jail cell.

Speaker 2 24:09

So here's my thing I truly believe that it's totally possible that someone killed them so they wouldn't have their name out. However, I also think that this is the type of person that's like if I can't do whatever I want, then I'm just going to kill my. You know what I mean? It's just like I can see them doing that.

Speaker 1 24:28

Maybe so. I was found dead in his cell at the Metropolitan Correctional Center at 6.30 am on August 10th 2019, while waiting his trial for federal sex trafficking charges, the New York City medical examiner determined that he had hanged himself with a bed sheet on the night when he was alone in his cell.

Speaker 2 24:47

That's another thing that I find really interesting, because I know I've done some work on the inpatient, like floors in the hospital, and typically they give them bed sheets that will not do that. So I'm surprised that he was able to have bed sheets that could do that, because they have the capacity and typically will, like you mentioned, take away shoestrings, take away forks, take away pens. They're only allowed to write with crayons. They can't have their shoes, they can't have chargers. No phones, no, nothing. They can't have paper. They have whiteboards and markers, that's it To doodle or whatever. You know what I mean, and they have special sheets that aren't able to be tied that way. Really, yeah, interesting that that happened. So it's just this is such a suspicious case.

Speaker 1 25:39

Well, so listen, I love a good conspiracy theory as well as the next guy, but after reading some of this information I'm thinking maybe he didn't kill himself, because I was convinced that he didn't kill himself, that he didn't or did there. There have been foul play there. I was convinced of it. Yeah, it was just. It was just too coincidental.

Speaker 2 25:58

It does seem I mean him dying and not like ratting on everyone did benefit.

Speaker 1 26:05

A lot of horrible pedophiles in power, right, but so here's the interesting part, and this is what kind of deflated that whole thing for me Was the fact that it wasn't the first time that he had tried to kill himself a month early that up.

Speaker 2 26:21

You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 26:21

Like we really could like a month earlier he had tried to kill himself, apparently after being denied bail on the federal sex trafficking charges. Ebsen was found unconscious in his jail cell with marks on his neck from what prison officials say was his first attempted suicide. So what were the marks from? Just from the sheet, maybe, see, but that's my thing.

Speaker 2 26:45

Wouldn't they have given him these special sheets or no sheets, jesus Right, right. No sheets, like they don't have to have sheets.

Speaker 1 26:52

Right the Friday morning that he died. Thousands of documents from the civil suit were released, providing a lured account, you know, accusing Mr Epstein of sexual abuse of young girls. The jail, the jail officials, were said to have made a serious mistakes. Mr Epstein was supposed to be checked on by two guards every 30 minutes.

Speaker 2 27:15

OK, no, I totally believe that, because you know, when I do work in those situations like they are checking on them I mean every 30 minutes, but maybe more Like they're literally constantly looking in those windows or they have their doors open.

Speaker 1 27:27

Right, but the procedures weren't followed that night and one of the two guards that we're supposed to be checking on and wasn't even a corrections officer.

Speaker 2 27:35

Who, what I mean? What the hell I? But the thing is, is that like knowing the way that things happen here, or even just in general the way things happen, like if they were short staffed and they were like, yeah, just come and fill in, I could see that happening. And if people were like, eh, he'll be fine, I don't really care about him, right, whatever?

Speaker 2 27:56

I could see that happening too, like people just being lazy and not wanting to go and check on him in the middle of the night. I could see that happening Like it's like. Is it human neglect or is it human Pathopathy? Yeah or no? Or even more, is it murder, like I mean. I could just see it happening all the different ways.

Speaker 1 28:14

Because of Epstein's earlier suicide attempt, he was supposed to have another inmate in the cell with him, but the jail had recently transferred his cellmate and allowed Epstein to be housed alone.

Speaker 2 28:25

Yeah, you mentioned that, but again I could see that happening just because they didn't have someone or that. You know, everything requires paperwork in these situations. So if they didn't move someone, like, and they didn't fill out paperwork on time and everyone left to go home, they were like we'll do it tomorrow. Like I could see that happening too.

Horrific Crimes of Jeffrey Epstein

Speaker 1 28:43

Right, it's crazy. So those two guards were charged criminally, initially with ignoring their duties and lying about it. They tried to cover it up. Prosecutors said that the guards had been browsing the internet and napping instead of checking on Epstein every half an hour or so on the night of the time, they reached an agreement with prosecutors that allowed them to avoid prosecution and do community service.

Speaker 2 29:07

Interesting. I don't know how I feel about that. I don't feel good about it.

Speaker 1 29:12

Right. So this year a trove of more than 2000 pages from the Federal Bureau of Prisons records were obtained by the New York Times after filing for a Freedom of Information Act. The notes and reports compiled by those who interacted with Epstein during his 36 days of detention. He had repeatedly assured them that he had much to live for, while he was also hinting that. You know he was a little despondent, obviously, but after the first attempt, for example, epstein said that he was living a wonderful life and denied any thoughts of ending his life, and that's why he didn't think he needed to be on Suicide Watch. I have no interest in killing myself, epstein said to the jailhouse psychologist. He said and admitted that he was actually a coward after all and he didn't like pain, so he would never do that to himself.

Speaker 2 30:02

My only thing with that is that you can totally believe that one minute. But if you do have depression it can flip so quickly. I have anxiety and a low form of depression, very mild, but I get really sad sometimes, and so if I had severe depression I can only imagine and it does flip very quickly you can be fine and then have a little bit of a lull, like a small you know what I mean. So he could have believed that and then the next moment not felt the same way.

Speaker 1 30:38

Or, let's face it, this guy was a master manipulator.

Speaker 2 30:41

About two.

Speaker 1 30:42

So he might have just lulled them into that state. I'm fine, I promise I'm not going to do anything. And he had just been manipulating them to get a situation where he could do that.

Speaker 2 30:53

But that's probably why they still had him on Suicide Watch, because those professionals they know what they're doing, so they're like I don't believe you, because this just happened.

Speaker 1 31:02

And plus there's human nature. When this guy killed himself, I wasn't losing any sleep over it. I didn't cry any tears out of the fact that, that son of a bitch was dead.

Speaker 2 31:10

But I do remember everyone was talking about how now we will never know all the people that were assaulting these little girls.

Speaker 1 31:19

Right. But if you have an hour or so, go online and they got it through the FOIA Information Act the jet logs, the filings, the manifests from those flights. It's interesting there were some people on there, like I said, and some of the stuff was probably innocent, some people it would fly between. He had friends that he would fly between Fort Lauderdale and Colorado or Fort Lauderdale in someplace else or even someplace in Europe, right back and forth, because he had several planes. But some of them were like. There was a woman who was a potential political candidate, I think she was in Virginia and she was on the manifest of some of the flights quite a bit and you wonder, is she just trying to get money to further her campaign? Was she somehow involved in this right?

Speaker 2 32:19

My thing is is that like, so it was what? 2015, when he was first accused of this?

Speaker 1 32:25

So, yeah, a plea deal was arranged, so they started looking at him in 2005. For what? Trafficking and so on of young men. And having. Actually, he was convicted of having sex with an underage girl. So anyone that's 2005.

Speaker 2 32:40

2005? Yeah, so anyone after that, anyone after 2005, knew exactly what kind of piece of shit he was and they decided anyways to go with him, to be friends with him, to be an acquaintance of his Well, so Disgusting.

Speaker 1 32:55

So when he was arrested, when he was convicted of that and that happened in 2008,. Right, Okay, so anyone who was anyone like you know, Trump and Bill Clinton and all those people kind of got away from him as quickly as they could at that point on, because he was a known pedophile at that point and even though he would fly them here and there.

Speaker 2 33:16

Oh so, but they still took his flights. See, that's what I'm saying Anyone who still was willingly surrounding themselves with him. I mean, they knew something. At least they knew what he was accused of.

Speaker 1 33:29

Well, I mean I have a problem with that sentence. Why it's a soft sentence 13 months in prison for it.

Speaker 2 33:34

Oh yeah, yeah, I thought you meant my phrase, my sentence no, no, no, no, no, I was like really no. The 13 month sentence, you know, and the fact that he was allowed to go to work every day that's insanity, yeah it's literally a slap on the wrist and that's For sexually assaulting a child For one of the worst possible things you can do, literally to another human being.

Speaker 1 33:52

Yes To a child, to a child. What the Right. This is disgusting. So that's softball. And you know, that was this. All could have ended in 2005. Yep, mm-hmm, and yet it went on. Yep, because it's some, and affected?

Speaker 2 34:04

how many lives? Oh right, Thousands Just by network, no doubt thousands. You know what I mean? Yeah, Like the little girls, their parents, their friends, people that heard about it Like it's crazy.

Speaker 1 34:17

So yeah, I mean, and so there's just, you know there's duplicity, you know Mm-hmm, there's a lot of dual. You know things like A normal citizen in the United States convicted that they're not getting a 13-month sentence.

Speaker 2 34:31

Oh, you never know.

Speaker 1 34:32

You never know, but by and large no it depends.

Speaker 2 34:34

It depends on so many factors. I mean, I think like now we're slowly getting better because we have accountability and people are holding each other accountable. They're holding the courts accountable.

Speaker 1 34:46

Right.

Speaker 2 34:46

Of the sentencing. But I mean, when was it 2012, when? What was his name? The swimmer from Stanford who sexually assaulted that other student and got two months? Two months, it's disgusting.

Speaker 1 35:05

Right, so, but yeah, but this monster could have been stopped a long time ago Exactly, yep, it's tragic. So I'm sure there will be more details to come, I'm sure there will be more documents released and I'll be interested to see who's on the actual client list, if they ever produce the actual client list.

Speaker 2 35:22

They will never produce that. If they did, my God, I mean, if someone has it, they should literally publish it now before they die, like I mean because I know so many people are like sweating hard about that, especially after this coming out.

Speaker 1 35:40

Right for sure. So we'll keep an eye on it and keep it on there too, because the one thing that should never happen is that people completely forget this has happened.

Speaker 2 35:51

No, yeah, no, definitely not. This is literally like it's evil, it's evil, you know, it's horrible, it is evil, it's evil incarnate Right.

Speaker 1 36:01

There are always monsters out there and unfortunately, I hope they lessen. I hope people get a better grip on this and believe that something happened. And if a child says, you know, this person makes me feel uncomfortable or this person did something to me, I hope there were a better society now that would jump on this stuff earlier. But if they're wealthy, wealthy, wealthy people, I don't know.

Speaker 2 36:21

Yeah, I mean, that's the problem Connections to people who have like power over these situations, because that's why he got that sentence. No one would give out that sentence.

Speaker 1 36:33

Well, right, some of the some of the Some of the federal government were right.

Speaker 1 36:38

And you have to wonder about that Mm-hmm, you know, because you know at that point in time, let me see that 2000, well, clinton was had been in office at that point, mm-hmm, you know. And other people, you know. There were other people. There were senators, there were, you know, there were governors, all of whom are powerful, all of whom kind of exert influence potentially. I'm not saying they did that, I'm just saying how did that sentence happen? No one would give out that sentence for that.

Speaker 2 37:03

I mean it could happen. It could Like we mentioned the, the Stanford swimmer. That happened too, Right.

Seeking Justice and Audience Engagement

Speaker 2 37:08

So it's just, it's tragic, but I'm happy that he was stopped Right and I hope that the girls who have now become adults you know, I hope that they get solace from the fact that he's not hurting anyone anymore and I hope that they hold those people that also were part of it accountable, if they can, and if not, then I hope that they go on to have amazing lives Right and because that's what they deserve after this horse, jolaine Maxwell or whatever her name is.

Speaker 1 37:40

Oh God, I hope, I hope she, I hope she gets life.

Speaker 2 37:44

Absolutely Lock them all up and throw away the key. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on and remember all of the source material will be available in the show notes and follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the shadows and let us know if you want to hear a specific case or if you just want to give us some feedback.

Speaker 1 38:03

I'm going to go ahead and give you a quick look at the source material.

Speaker 2 38:06

Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.