What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
Unraveling the Atlanta Bombing
Transition to a moment in history marked by tragedy—the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Park bombing. We honor the heroism of Richard Jewell, a security guard whose quick actions saved countless lives but couldn't shield him from the media's misguided accusations. The real perpetrator, Eric Rudolph, eludes capture by weaving a trail of devastation with his lethal nail-laden devices. Through a lens of regret and reflection, we confront the emotional aftermath of these events, the lessons learned about prematurely pointing fingers, and the lasting effects on those caught in the crossfire of public scrutiny. Jameson's first fiction novel, "The Vanishing Ballerina," is now available for presale at The Vanishing Ballerina: A Bobby Bocchini Mystery by Jameson Keys, Paperback | Barnes & Noble® (barnesandnoble.com) .
CNN.com 7-6-2023 Olympic Park Bombing
History.com 7-26-2021 Bombing at Centennial Olympic Park
Wikipedia Centennial Olympic Park Bombing
Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com
Background music by Michael Shuller Music
Good morning and welcome to what we lose in the shadows A father daughter true crime podcast. My name is James and keys.
Speaker 2:I'm Caroline. Hello everyone, welcome back to our podcast.
Speaker 1:I am. I'm doing well. The weather is actually starting to climb a bit out of the single digits and teens here in the northeast yeah, I hope everyone is safe and warm and cozy, because that's really all you can hope for in this weather.
Speaker 2:It's just it's hard to be outside at this point. It's it's a tough one. This is why I don't like winter. I just can't like summer. You can be out, you can be about, you can be in the pool. What can you do here?
Speaker 1:You can be out and about here. If you can, if you're a little heartier, if you don't mind a little bit of a chill.
Speaker 2:I hate a chill. I need like multiple blankets.
Speaker 1:You need to take those cold showers. It'll insulate you from the cold.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I literally I'm not taking cold showers, like I'm not doing it. Maybe if, like, my body starts hurting, like maybe when I'm older, you know, and I have like arthritis, then I'll have to. But I'm not going to do that because I really enjoy my warm, hot, really hot, hot showers, like there's no way.
Speaker 1:Are you insinuating that I'm old?
Speaker 2:Did you think you weren't?
Speaker 1:No, I when I first roll out of bed. I'm very, very sure that I am.
Speaker 2:Yes, but those, those cold showers, take it, take the pain away, right oh for sure.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. So a couple new updates here If you, if you've noticed on the news, the Jeffrey Epstein thing just keeps getting more and more and more and more documents are being released all the time. I saw a webcast of a man that was at one point in the mafia, who had spent a lot of time in that facility. That Jeffrey Epstein was where he his life ended and he said this guy on the website I think his last name is Freesie he said that there's just no way you spent months in that facility. There's just no way the official you know story of that happened that way. He just said you know, the cameras are almost always on and there's no way to hang yourself from the bars. It's just, you know. He's very dubious about the fact that that actually happened that way.
Speaker 1:So and in addition to that, on a similar kind of a note, the Gilgo Beach accused Gilgo Beach killer, Rex Hewermann. He's been charged with that fourth murder, the three young ladies that were murdered. That has been tied to him previous to that, but now Maureen Brain, Brainer, Barnes. They found a hair on her body and they were able to go through nuclear DNA to go back and check it and say that it did come from Rex Hewermann's household. So that's crazy.
Speaker 1:One more nail in the coffin, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's done as he should be. My thing is is like I wonder how high up that order came from or how high up the people that were benefiting from Epstein's death were, because you know, the fact that that happened and that there was no like investigation into it is crazy, especially right now with, like the way that they investigate the police if they suspect like something like police brutality has happened, the way they investigate that whole department, right, yes, it typically. I feel like that's kind of the way our society is leaning more until like holding each other accountable and so for that to go like unchecked is crazy and they're just like leaning back on the fact that everyone has forgotten about it because it's like there's so much stuff going on every day you can't keep that in the front of your mind.
Speaker 1:No, that's true, you can't.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's been years and it's just. They definitely need to do a deep dive and look into why that happened, because it's obvious that they killed him.
Speaker 1:So well, maybe we're not saying that outright, but certainly just covering our bases here it certainly looks suspicious.
Speaker 2:It is suspicious.
Speaker 1:During 2008, when the country was really floundering after some financial crisis season in the United States, certain companies were designated as the government invested in them heavily and because they were quote unquote too big to fail. You have to wonder are certain cases so incendiary that they're too big to prosecute? Do they go places we don't want them to go?
Speaker 2:So that's a great conspiracy theory.
Speaker 1:Maybe the higher ups that are on that list and we haven't seen the actual list, maybe they're so high.
Speaker 2:I don't think we'll ever see that list.
Speaker 1:I don't think there.
Speaker 2:I don't think. I don't know if that list exists outside of someone else's mind, like maybe you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because full list Right, but you would have thought that he would have, or Elaine Maxwell would have had. If they had that list, you'd think they'd have that in their back pocket saying listen, new update, also my book, the.
Speaker 2:Viennese.
Speaker 1:Ballerina. It's available in pre-sales. So if you want to get a look at it, go to BarnesandNoblecom and you can take a peek at it. You can pre-order it Now. It won't be available until the first March 11th I think it is but you can go to the publisher website called BookBaby and go to their bookshop and you can buy it or the e-book from them at this point.
Speaker 2:That's very good, as I have read it many times, actually in multiple stages of editing.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, take a peek at it or just kind of hover on it, go to the Amazon website and look at it and so on, because with the analytics that companies use, they kind of gauge that as how popular the book might be. So if you're a fan of the show, please give that a look.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very good, Nice. Trigger warnings are scapegoatism, domestic terrorism, murder and mention of possible suicide.
Speaker 1:So, caroline, as you may know, this summer is the summer Olympics again, and this time around they are in Paris.
Speaker 2:No comment about Paris. I did not enjoy myself in Paris.
Speaker 1:It's beautiful, though. It's a city of light, and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:It's a special place. It's a special place.
Speaker 1:You know and I never knew. You know, I guess I did know, but you don't always come to realize that they're chosen years and years and years ahead right. Because they have to build infrastructure and do all these different things. So before you were born, in September of 1990, the International Olympic Committee chose Atlanta, georgia, as a site for the 1996 summer Olympic Games.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's interesting. I did not know that.
Speaker 1:So Atlanta was chosen over Athens, which of course is the original site of all the Olympic Games.
Speaker 2:I wonder why Athens would have been really cool.
Speaker 1:They did have them a few years later. I guess, but this time it was, and they also chose it over Tokyo, which was where the course the summer Olympics were the last time. But midway through the Olympics, actually on July 27, 1996, centennial Olympic Park was designed to be the town square of the Olympics. And you know, on that particular day there were thousands of spectators gathered for a late night concert by the famous band Jack Mack and the Heart Attack.
Speaker 2:Never heard of it in my life.
Speaker 1:Me either.
Speaker 2:Okay, I thought that was literally supposed to be like.
Speaker 1:But around 1 am An anonymous phone call to 911 came in and said that there was gonna be a bomb that was gonna explode at the Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta. The caller said there's a bomb in Centennial Park. You have 30 minutes terrifying.
Speaker 1:About that same time, richard Joule, who was employed as a security guard for the games, notice that there was a green military-style duffel bag tucked under a bench near the AT&T sound tower. Joule had always wanted to be a police officer, but he was overweight and not necessarily what police departments were looking for. In fact, he had recently recently been let go by Piedmont College From position as a campus police officer, slash security guard, for being kind of overtly aggressive in his policing as a on a campus, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:That's weird. He would like go into. He would do things like he would really hassle kids about if he smelled marijuana or thought they had alcohol just overly, you know trying to do his most.
Speaker 2:Do in the most.
Speaker 1:That's right. But upon finding the duffel bag he noted he notified the Georgia Bureau of Investigation officers, along with the bomb squad Joule, along with the security guards, began evacuating the area. Some of the concert goers were having a good time and kind of refused the you know request to evacuate.
Speaker 2:Oh my god.
Speaker 1:The bag beneath the bench contained three large pipe bombs Filled with smokeless powder, surrounded by three inch long masonry nails. This was meant to act as shrapnel. What shrapnel?
Speaker 2:just little devices that are like like a grenade, like a projection yeah, or a projectile Exactly. That's a horrible.
Speaker 1:It is, it's, it's for maximum carnage.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's, so sad.
Speaker 1:The bomb went off early, earlier than the caller said, and at 1 20 am One person was killed and more than a hundred people were injured. Wow, a local resident named Alice Hoffthorne, who was 44, from Albany, georgia, was killed by the explosion. Instantly and a Turkish cameraman Died of a heart attack as he rushed to film the scene.
Speaker 2:Oh gee, that's intense.
Speaker 1:But no doubt casualties would have been much, much higher if Richard Joule hadn't started to evacuate the area for sure. The call was later traced to a payphone near the park and the recording of the call seemed to indicate that it was a white male with an indistinguishable American accent. On July 30 1996, quoting an unnamed source, the Atlanta Constitution Journal's, kathy Scruggs, a police reporter, a named security guard, richard Joule, as the prime suspect in the bombing oh my god.
Speaker 1:Joule, who was initially praised as a hero for discovering the backpack of the bomb, was indicated in that, and most damaging was one specific sentence in the piece that said Richard Joule Fits the profile of the lone bomber which was published despite no public declaration by the FBI or the criminal behavior unit.
Speaker 2:So it was a like trial by media.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of absolutely a little bit of outreach overreach by the media. That's weird. So outlets all over the country and all over the world picked up the bombshell story and use similar language in the profile, painting him as the lone bomber cop. Want to be gun loving Southerner.
Speaker 2:Yikes.
Speaker 1:Piedmont College president, dr W Ray Cleary, also contacted the FBI expressing concern for Joule, that the former policeman had been, you know, basically fired from that job as well.
Speaker 2:I thought it wasn't a policeman.
Speaker 1:Policeman slash security guard on campus.
Speaker 2:Oh, he was campus police campus police right.
Speaker 1:They went as far as to ask Joule the FBI To their Atlanta field office under the guise of making a training video for first responders about possible suspicious packaging you know I just when the police and like agents lie like that, I feel like it's not Constitutional, like I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably a legal gray area because it doesn't feel right. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:They can. They're allowed.
Speaker 2:I know they're allowed to but I'm wondering is it Constitutional?
Speaker 1:I don't know, but it's a fine lawyer, let us know. It's a fine line between hamstring the police and trying to get the person that perpetrated something off, but I agree it's in a gray. It's kind of weird.
Speaker 2:I mean, is it in a gray area? You know what I mean. Like it's I don't know. Like it's like it's so hard because, like, if someone has actually committed a crime, of course, like I'm like, yeah, get them in there any way, you need to right off the street, right. But then it's like, when it's innocent people and I don't know that just kind of feels where this is going, I'm not sure like. But you know what I mean, it's uh, it's sad. It's just it's really sad because it's like you're Taking advantage of their naivety and it's like well, but on the on the other side of that, they're like in New York.
Speaker 1:I remember them doing this sting. The NYPD did that, invited All these people that were known felons that had been running and missed their hearing dates and court dates and stuff like that. They sent them a card or an email saying that if you come in, you know the Yankees are having a special day, you can meet some of the players and so on, and these people fell for it and all these felons came in, all male, probably All these felons came in and basically they arrested them all.
Speaker 2:Oh, that wasn't on the up and up right no, it's really not, though it's really not more like justified like it's, but it's a murderer.
Speaker 1:Rapist, a rapist for sure, oh for sure a terrorist. But yeah, I do see it.
Speaker 2:I do see it, but it's like it's really shitty to me because I've seen this happen with ice detention centers. Maybe, so, and it's very fucked up. Yeah cuz it's like oh, you want to come see your child who is in the ice detention center. Yeah, come in. No, we won't arrest you. And then they do gosh.
Speaker 1:So Jule was a little nervous about being filmed and questioned about the bombing, but since they assured him that it was for a training video, he went ahead. The feds stopped at one point and read Jule his Miranda rights. Oh my God, Again under the guise of the video.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that is not Cool. No, it's really not that.
Speaker 1:Finally, his attorney was able to get ahold of him and he asked them to ask if he was being under arrest. And they said no. And his attorney said then you get the hell out of that building right now, Literally. So all this blew up nationwide, worldwide. The media circus that followed toured Jule and his mother's life apart. His mom the parking lot outside his mother's apartment would filled with TV trucks and news crews. For months he was haunted by reporters, the FBI followed him everywhere he went and newspapers and national programs all but named him as the perpetrator.
Speaker 2:Did they have any evidence? Not really, what the hell. They only had circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 1:Right. So a couple of things didn't add up, though. When the call came in from the pay phone, Jule was seen helping evacuate the area. This led the media to speculate that Jule actually had a partner. They even speculated further that Jule was actually a homosexual and that his male.
Speaker 2:What does that have to do?
Speaker 1:with anything that his male lover was the one that made the call.
Speaker 2:Literally they will pay anything as gay and wrong. Gay and wrong Like why?
Speaker 1:This was all incorrect.
Speaker 2:He wasn't even gay. No, they just love to pay gay people as criminals, like, come on, he wasn't even gay.
Speaker 1:You are apparently a criminal. The FBI descended on his mother's house, in the apartment, armed with a subpoena, and removed his guns, all his guns. Now, there was another thing about that. Like everyone was saying, he had rifles, he had different kinds of guns, he had handguns, he had a lot of guns.
Speaker 2:But he just liked guns. I get that, but like there is something a little strange to me personally about having a collection of guns, I think it can be a bread flag.
Speaker 1:So he was a deer hunter. Okay, so was eating the deer.
Speaker 2:I guess it doesn't really matter. I have no idea about that.
Speaker 1:I'm an educated man but I'm not really given the eating habits of Richard Jule.
Speaker 2:I'm not, I have no idea. I don't think he didn't do enough research. No, just kidding. Wow, okay, but like, keep, it's a deer hunter, okay.
Speaker 1:But how many guns do you need for deer?
Speaker 2:hunting Handguns. People like different things. I get it, but like why do you? I guess my one, like a version to the collection aspect of guns, is like it's very violent, like I'm like what are you doing with these? Like it's, it's just, I don't know. Like me, I collect books. You know I don't connect knives. You know, it's just, it's I don't know. It's very interesting, it's just different, different strokes, I guess. But it does give a red flag to me.
Speaker 1:To some people, to a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But red flags can leap to in conclusions that are, you know, not correct.
Speaker 2:It's true. Apparently, being gay is a red flag.
Speaker 1:In addition to the guns, they also took 20 pieces of his mother's Tupperware.
Speaker 2:Why.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, because, because some of the bomb, the bomb tech, they found some of the information within the bomb. I guess there was Tupperware that was holding one of the things, maybe the powder, or something, oh, so they wanted to see if it matched or whatever.
Speaker 2:Well that, I guess that makes sense then.
Speaker 1:But in addition to the Tupperware, they also took 20 of her Disney tapes. Don't ask me why.
Speaker 2:You know what they just be taking? Anything. They're like you know what I think my child would like this? How about you bag those two?
Speaker 1:But reexamination of the reporting surrounding the case also revealed you know, kind of a uhhh, it's kind of a huge journalistic mistakes that were made. The tone of the coverage insinuated that Richard Jule was guilty, despite the lack of evidence to support this claim, and they painted him as a fame hungry wannabe cop.
Speaker 2:Yes, the journalists have, like, specific ethics that they're supposed to follow. But also like why is the FBI being led by journalism, like what?
Speaker 1:I'm so confused that's not even their job, like they're supposed to be investigating, so in this case, some of the information was leaked to this young lady that worked for the Atlanta newspaper and that kind of reinforced because the FBI looked really bad. They were trying to make themselves look better.
Speaker 1:catch someone right away to get back their were the best detective agency in the world, so they were trying to find someone quick. He was the one person that they said we have this guy, we think it could be, and then the media and the speculation fed on one another to create this. In fact, the New York Post called him a village Rambo what does that even mean? And a fat failed former sheriff's deputy.
Speaker 2:That's a lot of speculation.
Speaker 1:Even Jay Leno, who at that point was the host of the tonight's show, said that. You know, Jule had a scare resemblance to the guy who whacked Nancy Kerrigan, you know, and that was-.
Speaker 2:No, I don't know. I don't know who any of those people are.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know Jay Leno, but vaguely so you don't remember the scandal with Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding and-.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Wait.
Speaker 2:Tonya Harding is the one that I skater right. Yeah, and she was.
Speaker 1:Nancy Kerrigan. And Nancy Kerrigan was her competition in the Olympics, so she had her heavy set boyfriend named Jeff Galulis smash her on the leg. So she couldn't compete but Smash Tonya, Smash Nancy Kerrigan. Oh, okay, yes, okay, so. So Lena was kind of referring to that. He said what is it about the Olympic Games that brings out big fat, stupid guys?
Speaker 2:That's a lot of shit talk from Jay Leno.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who's not exactly spelt there ever has been.
Speaker 2:Or the most intelligent, like what.
Speaker 1:So in a press conference his mother tearfully asked President Bill Clinton to clear her son's name. The I and the media were completely locked in on Jule. The only problem was-.
Speaker 2:Ton of vision.
Speaker 1:Jule was completely innocent.
Speaker 2:That's so sad.
Speaker 1:And he, you know, after 88 days he was not arrested, In fact, he was exonerated.
Speaker 2:Well, that's good that he got exonerated.
Speaker 1:On January 16th 1997, another bomb exploded outside an abortion clinic in suburban Atlanta, blowing a hole in the side of the building.
Speaker 2:What the hell.
Speaker 1:An hour later, while the police and ambulance workers were still at the scene, a second blast went off in a large trash can, injuring several people. As at Centennial Park, a nail laden bomb was used oh my God and authorities were targeted. Then, only five days later, also near Atlanta, a nail laden bomb near a patio of a crowded gay and lesbian nightclub, injuring five people.
Speaker 2:Literally you know what. And at the beginning of this they thought they were like, oh, he must be gay, he must have done it. And now look.
Speaker 1:A second bomb in a backpack was found outside the place. Once again, the bomber with the nails.
Speaker 2:That's like a signature it is.
Speaker 1:It was a signature. They put another one outside the, the gay and lesbian nightclub, to try to injure police and firefighters. The same thing as the abortion clinic.
Speaker 2:That is horrible.
Speaker 1:On January 29th 1998, an abortion clinic was bombed in Birmingham and up Alabama, killing an off duty police officer and critically wounding a nurse.
Speaker 2:That's so sad. Did anyone die from the first or the first abortion clinic or the gay and gay nightclub?
Speaker 1:I think people injured, I'm not sure anyone died. So an automobile that was reported at the crime scene was later found abandoned near the Georgia State Line. An investigator traced it to Eric Robert Rudolph, a 31 year old carpenter. Although Rudolph was not immediately found by authorities, they positively identified him. So Rudolph was basically a very, very far right anti-gay, anti-abortion sort of a former army.
Speaker 2:Exposions.
Speaker 1:No, we wouldn't call it the fascist. What do you mean Really With all that, maybe, but anyways, he had perpetrated that bombing.
Speaker 2:Yep Sounds about.
Speaker 1:Right. So, despite being one of the FBI's most wanted fugitives, Rudolph eluded authorities for five years by hiding in the mountains of western North. He was finally captured on May 31st 2003. As part of the plea agreement that helped him avoid the death sentence, Rudolph pled guilty to all three bombings, as well as the Olympic bombing too. So on August 22nd 2005, during the sentencing, Rudolph apologized to the victims and their families for the Olympic Park bombing.
Speaker 2:Only that one.
Speaker 1:Rudolph has been sentenced to serve four consecutive life sentences. Good Plus 120 years. Good For the three bombings in Atlanta. So where does that leave for Richard Joule? Richard Joule had to put his life back together at this point after being, you know, for 88 days, publicly humiliated and perpetrated, you know like persecuted and that sort of thing. Joule filed a lawsuit against the Atlanta Constitution Journal, CNN, the New York Post, NBC News and Piedmont College.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm not why Piedmont College?
Speaker 1:Because that the president of the college called in and said, yeah, this is probably your guy too, because we had a farm and this makes sense. Well, that's a tip.
Speaker 2:They're supposed to call those in.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But but the news news companies I can see right Because they used the leading language. That apparently duped the FBI.
Speaker 1:So Richard Joule was awarded an undisclosed amount.
Speaker 2:I hope it was enough by those entities.
Speaker 1:Joule worked in years after that in various law enforcement jobs, including a police officer in Pendergrass, georgia. He worked as a deputy sheriff for the Mary Maryweather County Police Department in Georgia on July 30th 1997. Richard Joule testified before a subcommittee of the United States House of Representatives in which he called for an independent investigation into the methods used by the FBI agents during the investigation of him.
Speaker 2:That's a good idea.
Speaker 1:He appeared. He also had a kind of a sense of humor about him too. He appeared in a cameo in September of 1997, in an episode of Saturday Night Live in which, jokingly, he was in front of a press court and he fended off suggestions that he was also responsible for the death of Mother Teresa, Princess Diana, both of which occurred later that year.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm happy you got a check from being the literal scapegoat of the United States.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, it kind of has a happy ending. The Joule married Dana Joule in 1998, and they remained married until Richard's death in 2007 at the age of 44. The couple relocated to a farm that they bought together in south of Atlanta in 2001. Joule was honored by the grand to be the grand master of ceremonies in Carmel, indiana's Independence Day parade. Joule was chosen in keeping with the parade's theme of unsung heroes. One sweet thing on the anniversary of the bombing, until his death he would go and put one white rose at Olympic Park.
Speaker 1:That's very sweet, yeah. So anyways, that is, that's Richard Joule's story, and it's. It's easy to make assumptions, right?
Speaker 2:That's why it's so important not to get tunnel vision as an investigator. You have to follow all the leads.
Speaker 1:Just because someone seems to be the right person. Police and FBI and everyone else, including the journalists and so on, have to do their due diligence. Make sure that is the case.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And if you don't, you get judicial overreach, you get you know, you get overreach by the media in their, their blind, you know kind of race to get. Be the first to, you know, get the story out there right. Maybe it's better off that they actually get the right story out there, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But also I find it really interesting and I wonder how far they would have gone, like if he would have like put into jail and Would have like been serving time until he died, if the other guy what was it?
Speaker 1:Rudolph Rudolph.
Speaker 2:Rudolph didn't continue with his like signature nails in his bombs. Like what if he had changed that? I don't know why he didn't actually, but you know what if he had? And then where would?
Speaker 1:Richard Julley. Yeah, I'm still in jail. You think well, I'd be dead. Maybe do you think so, maybe? That's crazy, even without like any evidence, like actual evidence, just like well, you know, and here's this has so many tragic kind of things. I mean, here's Richard Jull that you know he died early and he you got to think this incredible amount of stress he was, yeah, had something to do with you know his, his health may be maybe yeah.
Speaker 1:Even the lady that actually broke the initial story for the Atlanta Journal Constitution. She realized that she ran with the story way too quick and it affected her life as well. She kind of kind of spiraled down and she actually died early as well. Oh, I'm a parent. Drug use, drug overdose.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's, so sad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really just yeah, if, if people just kind of let's not jump to conclusions, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's not assume that you know the, the heavy said guy that likes guns is, is the bad guy like you have to wait for actual evidence, forensic evidence, to come through, to be like charging people or Naming them as suspects.
Speaker 2:And also the journalists definitely should not have made that assumption without the Impestigator saying that right but also Like I understand that that that woman you know did something wrong, but that's very sad to hear that she like passed away from the guilt you know, possibly, possibly. It's very sad, like I don't know, that just that breaks my heart because I feel like a lot of times like people are too hard on themselves, especially women, and you know therapy is Definitely one way to deal with like guilt or with stress, even like with him.
Speaker 1:So I guess it's my shameless plug for therapy right, clint Eastwood actually made a really good movie a couple years ago about this whole thing, about Richard Joule, and it's really good and super accurate. From what I researched and what, what I recall being in the movie and I kind of went back through the movie again it's really really a A really pretty accurate portrayal of the things that happened there.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's intense yeah, after look at it.
Speaker 1:So, absolutely so, I highly recommend that. That's wild, that is wild. But but you know, let's, let's all as a country, as a you know, as people, and so on, let's, let's not jump to conclusions before we're sure of all the facts.
Speaker 2:First, don't judge a book by its cover exactly.
Speaker 1:And speaking of books now, Shameless plug again.
Speaker 2:The vanishing ballerina out now for pre-sale. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on and remember.
Speaker 1:All of the source material will be available in the show notes.
Speaker 2:And follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the shadows and let us know if you want to hear a specific case.
Speaker 1:Or if you just want to give us some feedback.
Speaker 2:Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.
