What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
Unraveling the Mysteries of the Gilgo Beach Murders
Have you ever wondered about the mind of a serial killer? What if I told you that the shadows of Long Island hide a chilling tale of unsolved murders? In the first segment of our episode, we unravel the bone-chilling mysteries of the Gilgo Beach Murders. The narrative starts with the eerie disappearances of Shannon Gilbert and Melissa Barthelamy, culminating in the gruesome discovery of their remains on the Long Island beach. Join us as we shed light on the strange phone calls, curious clues and the unexpected first encounter of a corpse at Gilgo Beach.
We'll then take you through the intricate investigation into these horrifying killings. You'll learn about the shocking links between victims, unearthed through phone records and personal belongings. Picture this: a simple phone record leading investigators to a potential serial killer's doorstep. We reveal the startling connections that drew a map from one victim to another, potentially linking the Gilgo Beach murders to other unsolved cases in the area. Prepare yourself - it's going to be a chilling ride.
"A timeline of events in the Gilgo Beach Serial Killings" NPR
"Gilgo Four: What we know about women." CNN
"What we know about the Gilgo Beach Murders Case:" Time
"Long time Jane Doe in Gilgo Beach Serial killings is identified." The New York Times.
Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com
Background music by Michael Shuller Music
Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the Shadows.
Speaker 2:A father-daughter true crime podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Jameson Keyes.
Speaker 2:I'm Caroline. Today's trigger warnings are murder, sexual assault, lowering murder of a child and drug use. So how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good Care. How are you? I'm good. I'm a little toasty here today I've got a little bit of a sunburn going on.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Need to make sure that you put on sunscreen, Everyone sunscreen.
Speaker 1:So I took a little vacation this week back up to Pittsburgh, where I'm from, and took my son with me and we went to a pirate game and then Steeler Camp, and at Steeler Camp your brother's a little more fair than I am, so I was so concerned with him burning that I kind of neglected my own son blocking needs. That's why I have kind of a red beak here today.
Speaker 2:You always put on your breathing mask on the plane before you help others.
Speaker 1:I know that.
Speaker 2:That's what you're supposed to do.
Speaker 2:That's right, yes, sports, sports, sports. I am a guy. I have no idea what that means. I don't know the pirates. Which sport it is? That's baseball, Okay. Well, many of you have probably heard of Lisk or the Long Island serial killer or the Gilgo Beach killer before. This case is the most extensive case that we have ever covered on our podcast. There are a lot of victims that we will be discussing, some of which have not been identified, others who have, but they are not definitely related to the Gilgo Beach murders at this time not all of them. This case is messy and has tons of twists and turns. We'll be doing our best to give you all the facts as simply and as straightforward as possible.
Speaker 1:So let's start at the beginning. The reason that they found the victims on Gilgo Beach was sort of by accident. On May 1st 2010, a sex worker named Shannon Gilbert called 911. Shannon was contracted by a man named Joseph Brewer who lived on Oak Beach, which is a gated community near Gilgo Beach on Long Island, to come to his house. She arrived from Manhattan sometime around midnight. She was driven there by her driver. She was trying to take precautions. The driver's name was Michael Park.
Speaker 1:Around 4 am, shannon called the Suffolk County 911 saying someone was after her. She repeated this phrase in the recording and she seemed to be under the influence of something or something was off about it. Shannon had problems with mental disorders and so on, as did her mother and one of her sisters, and we'll be discussing the Gilbert family in a later episode in greater depth. Eventually, shannon flees the house and runs to the house of Gus Coletti, who is an older man and for insurance adjuster. He's also a 30-year resident of the community. He tries to get her to talk to him a little bit, to sit down or to come in, but Shannon really doesn't respond and sooner or later she bolts away from his house and she ran to the next house down the strand, who was the lady named Barbara Brennan. Now, barbara was an older woman and she was frightened by the whole thing and didn't answer the door. What she did do is she called 911, just like Mr Coletti had.
Speaker 1:When the police arrived, there was no one there. There was no sign of Shannon. It seemed as though Michael Park, her driver, had been able to get her into the car, calm down and get her away from the area and off to home. Police assumed that Pac had been able to do just that and that Shannon was actually back home. Always assumptions, always assumptions. But unfortunately, shannon had actually run on to Gilgo Beach A little while later, in December of 2010,. So this is months later. A canine officer by the name of John Malia and his police dog, blue, were doing a combination. They were looking for Shannon, who they hadn't found yet, and he was also doing a training session on Gilgo Beach. They were looking for, of course, unfortunately, the remains of Shannon when the dog triggered and indicated a body. This was the first of 11 bodies to be found in that proximity. Shannon's body was eventually found on December 13th of 2011, and her cause of death has been inconclusive.
Speaker 2:Right, so you said that she did have a break in her spinal cord at the neck right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was a break. There was a lot of speculation, some people thought that she might have died of exposure, but when they look back at the weather trends, at that point it wasn't cold enough to really cause hypothermia and her death.
Speaker 2:But also not with a break in the neck via exposure.
Speaker 1:Right and some people thought she drowned.
Speaker 2:Or tripped maybe, and hit her head Could be.
Speaker 1:That could be. It could be a variety of different things.
Speaker 2:Or she was murdered.
Speaker 1:Or she was murdered. Some people thought she drowned, but they look at the high tides and low tides and at that time the very maximum amount of water that would have been on that marshy area was about an inch. Now can you drown it in water, I suppose, but that's unlikely. Yeah, there was a bone somewhere in her vertebrae and her neck that seems to have been broken in a you know the corner found, but no one knows if that was indeed the case.
Speaker 2:But this case the case of Shannon Gilbert and her missing persons report spiraled into what we're about to talk about today, right One woman named Melissa Barthelamy. She was 24 years old. She lived in New York City, in the Bronx. She was working as an escort when she disappeared. She was last seen in her home on July 12th 2009. She told her friend she was going to see a man and will come home later. Her mother reported her missing six days later. After not hearing from her daughter, melissa's younger sister, amanda, started getting strange phone calls from an unidentified man. He would taunt her about her sister's death and once confessed to killing Melissa Yikes. So you talked about Malia and Blue. So she was the first set of remains that was discovered in December 2010. She was wrapped in burlap along Ocean Parkway in Giga Beach, and police believe she was the second woman to be killed. Rex Uriman has been charged with her murder at this time, but we'll get more into Rex later.
Speaker 2:Another victim that was found at Giga Beach is Megan Waterman. She was only 22 years old when she went missing. She lived in Maine and she was working as an escort during the time that she went missing. She was last seen June 2010. She was staying at a motel and was reported missing a few days later after she had not tried to reach out to her family that was watching her child and that was unlike her. She was discovered December 2010 wrapped in burlap, also along Ocean Parkway. Uriman has also been charged with her murder.
Speaker 2:The third person that Uriman has been charged with murdering was Amber Lynn Costello. She was 27 years old. She lived in West Babylon, long Island. She was suffering from a substance abuse disorder. Her and her roommate would use sex work as a method of making ends meet and funding their drug habit. She and her roommates would often trick their clients by making them pay, having a friend of theirs who was a man walk in on them and yelling that she was their girlfriend, and then making the client run off. This happened with Uriman, and he contacted her later, wanting to meet up again, saying that he didn't get what he paid for. She went to meet up with him on September 2, 2010 and she never returned home.
Speaker 2:Now there's another person who Uriman is a suspect in her murder, but has not been charged with her murder. Her name is Maureen Brainard Barnes. She was 25 years old when she went missing. She lived in Norwich, connecticut. She was reported missing on July 14th 2007. She took an Amtrak train to Manhattan to meet a man. She was also working as an escort during that time. Police believe she was the first victim of those that had been discovered of the four Right. She was discovered in December 2010, wrapped in burlap as well, along Ocean Parkway. But again, he was not. He hasn't been charged with her murder, only a suspect in her murder.
Speaker 1:Right, and he has not been and is not being looked at, actually, as the murder of Shannon Gilbert, by the way. But the four people, and even Shannon Gilbert, all had a couple things in common. Right, they were all white, they're all petite, they're all somewhere around five foot two, they were all involved in the sex trade and, unfortunately, it comes from the fact that they're all in sort of you know, dire straits in one way or another. Some were trying to make rent, some had mental disorders, some had drug abuse and, unfortunately, all too often when people find themselves in that situation, they would do what they can to make money and in this case, you know which is not always a bad thing.
Speaker 2:However, I think the way that people look at sex workers is as if they're beneath them, right, you know, like these men, and sometimes women, probably hire sex workers and then treat them like shit. Men typically do not respect sex workers which is why they're often times the victims of these horrible sexual assaults and murders.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and it's been that way forever. I mean, if you look back as far back as Jack the Ripper, all of his victims and we've talked about Jack the Ripper a little bit in the HH Homes case all of his victims were, in fact, prostitutes, sex workers. So it's been that way forever.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And another reason that murderers they often do target sex workers because they don't think anyone will miss them and sadly that is sometimes the case because many people aren't reported.
Speaker 1:Right, and it's not only the public, generally speaking, that feels that way. It's. Sometimes, unfortunately, it can be law enforcement too. Oh, absolutely. And we found that when we were talking about the Indigenous women that disappear, right, you know, when one young, you know, blonde haired, child or woman goes missing, it hits the alarm and everyone kind of flips out and then looks at it. But if you're a sex worker, if you're someone you know, maybe a minority that's in that field, if you're, you know, an Indigenous woman, sometimes, unfortunately, in the past it's been some sort of a lesser case or not something you put enough manpower towards.
Speaker 2:In the past and currently. And currently Very sadly.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about Rex. Rex was born in New York City on February 12, 1964. He was raised in Massapequel Park, long Island, where he lived at the time, and growing up he was an awkward man, you know a young guy. He was bullied and always just took it. He never fought back. A classmate of Hearman's was Billy Baldwin, who was an actor. He's Alex Baldwin's brother and he remembers Hearman as kind of a loner, kind of creepy, but he also thought he was harmless. In high school Rex had a growth spurt and he became much more imposing, but unfortunately the damage had already been done. After high school he graduated from the New York Institute of Technology with a degree in architecture. He worked for a bunch of Manhattan architectural firms, including Greer Construction Corporation. He also he was married before and he lived in a variety of places too. He lived in North Reading, massachusetts, freeport, new York, and Brunswick, new Jersey. And let's face it, if there are open cases, open serial cases, they might want to take a peek there as well.
Speaker 2:That's a good point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also, you know, the crazy thing is he has property in South Carolina. He has a timeshare in Las Vegas. That's terrifying. So this guy, could you know, this guy could have bodies stashed in a variety of different places. That's a good point, if indeed he is the killer.
Speaker 2:He's the killer.
Speaker 1:Well, I think so too, but let's you know, nothing has been proven yet and it's not a fact until it's proven in the court of law.
Speaker 2:I think he's the killer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. But let's see. So, after he'd worked for a couple of construction companies, he founded. Rh Consultants and Associates in both Long Island and New York in 1994.
Speaker 1:Now he was a pretty well thought of architect. He worked for, you know, companies like Catholic Charities, nike, target, the Department of Environmental Protection, american Airlines, just to name a few. He may have also done some work on the 40 Wall Street location, otherwise known as the Trump Building, and the reason he was so sought after was he knew the New York City architectural code inside and out Police when they were giving information to the defense about their surveillance, because they've been on this for a while right, one year. Yeah, they have almost a year's worth of surveillance. They gave the information over to the his defense attorney and it amounts to about eight terabytes of information. Now, that's 8000 gigabytes. That's hundreds and thousands. It's just an enormous amount of material Now going through that. That's why, like the next, he was just he was in a hearing, I think on the 1st of August and the next hearing is until sometime in late September, because they have to have time to go through all that information. So the discovery period? Yeah, because it's cell phone information, it's burner information, it's surveillance video, oh my gosh. So and Hewerman? Actually, he lived about 25 minutes from Gilgo Beach. Hewerman purchased burner phones, prepaid burner phones, and was to try to remain anonymous, we think, and he used the burner phones to communicate with the victims and then after he would throw the burner phones away.
Speaker 1:So the district attorney, mr Tierney, said in a news conference that he added that authorities compared victims phones with the burner phones and pinpointed an area in Massa Piqua Park where you know, which was within the area in which Hewerman lived, and the audience called the box and they kind of traced the information between Massa Piqua Park and Midtown Manhattan where his office was. Tierney also said that you know some of the information they had and we'll go over this in a little greater detail. But they had recovered a hair from Brainerd Barnes in a belt buckle that was across her legs. Three hairs were also removed from Waterman and one from the head and one from a rounder leg that was caught up in the burlac. A significant hair was recovered from Costello's body. Tierney said the hair was so degraded but traditional DNA evidence couldn't be used. Technology did improve at that point. It went from nuclear DNA to mitochondrial DNA and that's one of the big jumps that they made.
Speaker 2:So now we'll be discussing victims who may or may not be connected to the Gilgore Beach 4 and Shannon Gilbert, but were found on Gilgore Beach. One was Jessica Taylor. She was 20 years old when she went missing. Her partial remains were found by a dog walker in July 2003 in Manorville, New York. She was found decapitated and missing her hands. Jessica's pimp told A&E DocuSeries called the killing season that police said that she was wrapped in burlap as well. It's interesting because three of the women on the beach from Gilgore Beach murders were also found wrapped in burlap, but the police said that they were not confirming that or not.
Speaker 1:Well, it would be a departure from the thing about the bodies that were found on Gilgore Beach, the Gilgore Beach 4. They all were stripped of all clothing, all identification, all electronics all sexually assaulted all sexually assaulted and all wrapped in burlap.
Speaker 2:But completely intact.
Speaker 1:But completely intact. So the fact that they were decapitated and dismembered is kind of a difference, right?
Speaker 2:It's difference in the criminology of the crime.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. That's something we need to keep in mind.
Speaker 2:But he lived in Manorville.
Speaker 1:He lived in Manorville.
Speaker 2:He lived in Manorville. He lived around that area, in the Massa Piqua Park. So other remains belonging to Jessica were found years later, in 2011, along Gilgore Beach. That was her hands and her head. Valerie Mack, another victim. Her partial remains were found in Manorville in 2000. It took a long time for police to identify Valerie because of a tattoo that she had, which was cut in many different ways, concealing what the tattoo was of. Instead of cutting her tattoo off, like many other killers, he sliced the tattoo from top to bottom and the medical examiners had to push the skin together to reveal a tattoo of a red heart that said Remy's Angel. They identified Valerie using genealogy in 2020.
Speaker 2:More of her remains were found along Gilgore Beach as well in 2011. So we're recording this on August 5th, but yesterday just yesterday, they found the identity of Karen Vertagatta. She was last seen alive working as a sex worker in Manhattan in 1996, on Valentine's Day. I know no missing person report was filed for Karen Vertagatta. In April of the same year, a pair of legs were found on Fire Island on Blue Point Beach. In April 2011, her skull was found on Gilgore Beach. During their excavation of Gilgore Beach after they started finding different remains there October 22nd. Her remains were used to compare with DNA databases in the same way they found Valerie Mack. So using genealogy, the task force was able to find a cousin that they confirmed by a swab taken from the cousin that it was.
Speaker 2:Karen. So Karen Vertagatta was called the Fire Islando. In June of 1997, a torso was found at Lakeview, new York. She was black, which is unlike the other victims who were all white or white presenting More of her remains were found in a bag at a different beach, jones Beach State Park, which is different than Go-Go Beach. She has yet to be identified. She has a tattoo of a peach on her chest which led investigators to nickname her Peaches, and I'm not sure if I like this nickname for a victim. I feel like it's a little lighthearted, but I mean, obviously I understand like where it came from. Right, I feel like it could be seen as disrespectful, especially since she was the only one to get this lighthearted name. They didn't call the Fire Islando Angel, like her tattoo had, but they called the woman who was found on Jones Beach State Park Peaches. But I feel like this could be a sign of like being less empathetic because she was black. So I just I don't know, I just don't really like the term peaches.
Speaker 1:Too cute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really weird. I don't know. One of the worst parts of this case and there are a lot of horrible parts is the fact that her child was also found. Her child was a toddler, two years older or less. They assume they call her baby dough, because she has also yet to be identified. Her remains were found wrapped in a blanket and showed no signs of abuse, which is interesting. I'm like very confused about that. Like this is such a weird twist, so it almost makes me think like Rex Hureman didn't do this, but also maybe he, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Anyways, another victim and our last victim that we'll discuss was assigned male at birth. I say it this way because they were found dressed in women's clothing. They were discovered in 2011 on Gilgo Beach and they have yet to be identified. They were of Asian descent. They died due to blunt force trauma to their face, which is also different from the other way that the everyone else died. According to investigators, they were most likely sex worker, but I'm curious if they have information we don't know or if they assume that, because of the clothing choice, it's possible they have more information and are keeping it close to the vest so they can confirm specific details. If someone does confess, I know they do that, but if there's not more information, I'm wondering why like this could be a totally separate hate crime towards someone who was identifying it as transgender and again, we don't know if this is the case. I'm just being sensitive to the victim because, again, they have yet to be identified, right?
Speaker 1:And you know what I mean. It's often thought of how many people, how many killers could this be? Could it all be Rex Hureman? I guess it could be, but it doesn't seem as likely to me. So is this the work of multiple serial killers? Was there two or there three? Or was this all this one horrendous human, allegedly? It's really an interesting question because, like we said before, he did things in the four completely differently than these other cases.
Speaker 2:Right, it was like sexually motivated, it seemed to be.
Speaker 1:And the dismemberment of people. That's a whole different level of rage, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely, but they were found like their torsos were found close to his house.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is so weird.
Speaker 1:And the thought that there could be two or three serial killers operating in that small area.
Speaker 2:Or maybe not serial killers but like killers. So I personally this is my you know assumption, but I'm not sure if that's, I don't know if it's true. Just take it for what it is an assumption of an armchair detective. I feel like the last victim who was assigned male at birth. I feel like they. I feel like that was a hate crime. Maybe, like I feel like that was just so different from all the other victims, like you or men was arrested after a task force Was finally formed in 2022 right the task force included the FBI, new York City Police, suffolk County homicide detectives, suffolk County's DA and the Sheriff's Office.
Speaker 2:That's right and this was all set into motion after Rodney Harrison, suffolk County's new police commissioner, took the position.
Speaker 1:Rodney Harrison is definitely in this horrendous, tragic, awful story. Rodney Harrison, a real hero here, along with the canine officer, and oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I love blue. I love that a doggy helped like bring this to light, right, I hate that for the dog. I wonder if the dog even knows, you know, what they found like I don't know if they can like or like sentient in this, in the fact that, like they understand that they're finding bodies. Do you think so?
Speaker 1:I gee? I hope not no.
Speaker 2:I so sad right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think they're. They're reasoning and rational Patterns probably are a little different than ours.
Speaker 2:I'm curious though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not sure he's laments and even doesn't go home the the kennel that night. Oh my god, I had a horrible day. No, I wonder though.
Speaker 2:Anyways, this brings us to a weird piece of connected side drama, which is James Burke. So the previous police commissioner, james Burke, was always against having a task force to look into the gilgah beach murders and or Liske pray tell why, yes. So he was involved in some shady dealings that finally cut up with him, and you know we could have a whole episode just on James Burke and what a piece of shit he was, but he has a really strange history. I'm just gonna try and summarize it. So he was a cop that had a reputation for being overly aggressive Not unheard of in the industry but for others to think he was aggressive decades ago is Terrifying, since we weren't as attuned to police brutality back then. He had many officers come into his office late at night after work for drinks, which was obviously against policy. He was said to have some team members stalking his girlfriends and ex-girlfriends over the years and calling it surveillance, without any reasoning to surveil them. They dissed him in some way or disrespected him by not being exactly what he wanted or not being wanting to be with him.
Speaker 2:In December of 2012, james had a duffel bag that was stolen out of his car. He was upset, especially so because it was full of sex toys and porn. He did not want this getting out and he wanted to find the person responsible as soon as possible. When he found the person who stole it, he brought him to the station, chained him to the floor or Assaulted him and threatened to kill him if he told anyone what was in the bag. The person who stole the vehicle or the person who stole the bag was Experiencing a sud or a substance abuse disorder, so they were addicted to drugs at this time and they stole the bag to, I'm assumed right by yes, yeah. So they had no idea that it was his you know bag and that they wanted to go through his stuff like I don't, I don't, I think. I just think it's also Egotistical like no one cares about you and your duffel bag.
Speaker 1:Right, but if you're, if you're, you know, if you're put put, he thought he was untouchable, is what? Exactly he thought he was untouchable. He, you know, and he would anyone that opposed him he would go after in certain ways and and this person Affronted him in that he broke into his car. Mm-hmm stole his information and it was always his bag sensitive yeah and, yes, sensitive.
Speaker 1:And if you're the top cop in that area and if you're supposed to be on the moral high ground and God, god forbid you find out that you're into some pretty weird shit, yeah then. Yeah, then that was. You know, that was the reason for the beating and and he was charged, I think, with a. Was he in charge with something?
Speaker 2:the person who stole the bag was Severely assaulted, beat up so badly that other police officers had to pull their boss off of him. He was quoted as saying when it went to court the punishment for petty theft should never include a vicious beating from the chief of police. James was arrested for conspiring to obstruct justice and violating a victim's civil rights. This was not in relation to any of the victims above which he could also have been obstructing justice. I believe he truly was right instructing justice, so many argue that he may have known more than he let on about list or about the go-go beach murders. Others think that he just didn't want the FBI around in case they were to catch on to his unrelated crimes. I think more about him is really gonna come out later, though right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah, and you have to wonder, it Sent, they're in languish, you know for so long for a decade for a decade at least happened, you know, and the reason was he was being Obstructive in terms of the information getting out right then bringing in people. You'll notice that after they brought in and started the task Course in 2022, was it like six months before they came up with the new suspect Yep, so it could have been solved much, much earlier and were lives ruined and taken right because of his Decision to not do anything about the information that he had and just sit on it.
Speaker 1:Right, and we don't know that because we don't know if Huhrman if Huhrman actually did this was active after that year that all those people died. The last year was a 2010 and we don't know if he was active during that period of time. But if indeed he was, then then the former police chief is definitely complicit, because you know right In those extra deaths if there are any, if they find them, are on his side because of that and also like, even if there were not which I truly believe there were there's no way that he just goes into like a Hibernation of murder.
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't think, I don't know. I personally don't think that happens. I think maybe for short periods, but, like you said, he has other like places of residence, like I think that could have been something. Who knows?
Speaker 1:right.
Speaker 2:We don't know, but or just found a different dumping spot in the area that we haven't discovered yet or haven't like Related back to him yet. But I think every day that a loved one does not have answers about who took their Child, mother, sister, whomever away from them is an eternity of pain. They're living in hell often, you know. Of course, sure, I hope that everyone who has had something horrible happen to them is on a healing path, but I Can only assume that it is very, very difficult to face that reality in the morning. So the fact that he was taking away the chance to catch their killers, their loved ones killers, is also his job, his job and should be. He should be tried for that as well. Right, in my personal opinion.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Some of the information, some of the really damaging information, incriminating items and so on that were found like you said, the task force was formed just in January of 2022. Right, they found things like burner phones. They use cell phone records, cell phone records that were also tied back to possibly some of the taunting cases Right For that sort of thing. The location info checked there. He was checking voicemails from Brainerd Barnes cell phone after she went missing and he used these burner phones right, and he cast some of them away and some of them were tied into different accounts. Like, he had several names that he was using during that period of time. That went back to searches and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:So Springfield man one, the Gmail.
Speaker 1:Springfield man one.
Speaker 1:His middle name was in, actually in one of the Andrews and so a lot of that stuff was tied back and tied into the different things, because if you've ever set up a new you know email account or Gmail account or anything like that, then you know that there has to be you know a retrieval number associated with it, right? And I think in one of the cases they found that one of the messages that he left and one of the taunting message he left to one of the families was tied back to one of his aliases, right? So a lot of the information here, a lot of the evidence is circumstantial, but there's a shitload of it.
Speaker 2:Yep, and they also found selfies of him in the Springfield man's Gmail.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Like such an idiot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and one of these you know, ancillary accounts. He had conducted thousands of searches related to sex workers and there's a lot of really disturbing, you know, torture related porn and imagery of child sexual abuse.
Speaker 2:That's interesting because he if it was him who did murder that child, there were no signs of abuse on that child, which is just very interesting See.
Speaker 1:I don't think he did that. You don't think he did that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very off of his victimology.
Speaker 1:Right and you know, I mean I don't know it's, it's not inconceivable. I mean, maybe he, maybe there is a barrier that he wouldn't cross. Maybe that was it. Maybe he wouldn't hurt a child.
Speaker 2:But he was hurting a child by watching child porn, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, but I mean, not physically hurting a child, yeah. Who knows? You know what kind of connections and what kind of rationale right, yeah people try to discover. I'm not that bad, I wouldn't hurt a child, right, I kill all these women but I wouldn't hurt a child. So yeah, but I mean he was. He was also obsessed with the Lisk case. He had hundreds of photos of the victims and and, unfortunately, their families in addition to that Ew. So all the cases coincided with his wife and his family being out of town.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:So some of the hairs found on some of the victims there were some that they went through mitochondrial DNA and and that sort of thing and figured out that it was potentially his hair, potentially or it was that it was his.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. So this is what I'm talking about. He's he's done. This is him, he did this.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, but but like some of his wife's hairs were also found on some of the victims.
Speaker 2:He could have brought that with. I don't think it was her Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly Right.
Speaker 2:I'm sure I have so many of Mr Goose's hair on me right now, right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what they're thinking, because you know, the thought being that the wife was in on it.
Speaker 2:That'd be crazy.
Speaker 1:There's some other weird stuff happening there, like there have been some taunting calls to the attorney of Shanna Gilbert's, you know, making phone calls and it's a man and a woman that's kind of taunting that attorney, according to the attorney, but so we don't know this. This could be a variety of different people, but not all. This is on Hewriman. But yeah, they recovered the mitochondrial DNA. They had been following Hewriman for a long time almost a year Right and they surveilled him Right, and one of the big places, one of the big reasons that they brought him in, was the fact that at one point they watched him come out of his office in Manhattan and put a pizza box in a trash can. And if you know your constitutional law, once you place something in a public trash can, it is public domain. You're able to go in there, even if you drop your stuff in your regular trash can.
Speaker 2:The police can look at that as well. As long as it's outside of your home, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So they recovered his mitochondrial DNA from the abandoned pizza crust.
Speaker 2:Wow so yeah, I mean Science.
Speaker 1:It is. It's wonderful and terrible all at the same time.
Speaker 2:The science is amazing, though. It's truly amazing. I'm so happy that people are so dedicated to this trade and, you know, using their knowledge to help get closure for victims' families, because it's very, very important work, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And you know another thing we had mentioned, that was the ladies, the Castellos, first name.
Speaker 2:Amber Lynn Castello.
Speaker 1:Amber Lynn Castello. So, as you said before they, I've heard different things. Her roommate's name is David Schaller and he actually gave a description of the murderer to the detectives yeah, because he ran in on them.
Speaker 1:Right. So now, whether a court like him. At one point he said that he had come home and that he had found this large man you know banging on the bathroom door where Ms Castello was actually hiding, and so on. And he said that they got into an argument and, you know, punches were thrown, oh my God. And the guy ran out. But they, he told police. He said the man you're looking for was a towering Frankenstein like figure with an empty gaze who drove a first generation Chevrolet Avalanche.
Speaker 2:Very specific car, very specific car.
Speaker 1:Now some people I've heard some people say it was really unusual car. It's not. It's a Chevrolet, it's not an unusual car. But but you know, early generation it was green, it was a Chevy Avalanche. And it just so happened that Pureman actually owned that car, but he also identified him didn't he Like?
Speaker 2:he saw his picture and was like that was him Right, Absolutely so. It's a eyewitness of abusive behavior towards one of the victims that was later found dead.
Speaker 1:And once again, James Burke was aware of that way back Exactly.
Speaker 2:What a.
Speaker 1:I can't stand him. Yeah, so you know. Schellers said that. You know that Costello was actually only an occasional sex worker, just to make rent and whatever.
Speaker 2:I think most people are occasional sex workers, like Not most people. I mean, I think most sex workers are occasional sex workers. I don't think that they identify solely with. That Could be wrong, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:So Rob Trotta, who was the former Suffolk County police detective, said that that important information about the truck and the person he was unaware why the police chief never shared that with anyone.
Speaker 2:I can think of some reasons.
Speaker 1:So the new district attorney, ray Turney, helped solve the case, along with our champion, rodney Harrison. But he said when he reexamined the evidence, they started back with square one, bolt one and they brought in all the different people. I think they should always do in these cases. They brought in FBI, they brought in Suffolk County Sheriff, suffolk County detectives and the district attorney and with, like we said, in six months they put this thing together.
Speaker 2:And this case is so convoluted.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Now. You know, we mentioned the fact that there could be multiple killers and so on. We mentioned the fact that you know the killer. Whoever the killer was, taunted some of the families and the fact that Heerman had pictures of not only the girls that were murdered, the ladies that were murdered, but also of the family members. Really, really disturbing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is disgusting.
Speaker 1:Right. So a close friend of Brinard Barnes, the sex worker who vanished in 2007, because she was probably the first victim her body was found told people that she received a mysterious phone call from a man who taunted her about her friend's disappearance.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I mentioned that.
Speaker 1:The man she said said she was at a whorehouse in Queens. Her friend, sarah Carnes, told people and he described her to me to a tee Wow. But that wasn't the only taunting phone call. The sister of Bethelamy, who disappeared in 2009, is the second victim known to have been taunted. He said he was very calm and he told people. He told her that he had sexually abused her and murdered her. Yikes, just a terrible, terrible human being.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely, and even if he's not found guilty on this, I hope they can put him away for something else, because he's obviously a horrible person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you know? There was a podcast and there have been several podcasts about this. There were a couple that actually did the full season on. I mean I can understand why.
Speaker 2:It's very like convoluted, and it reminds me of a necklace that's wrapped up and you have to untangle one piece at a time.
Speaker 1:I'll take your word for that. I don't happen to wear necklaces, but you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're lucky that I didn't wear necklaces as a child, or else you would have been doing that.
Speaker 1:Well, that's true, but you know, let's talk about one other thing here. There are different cases and we've mentioned that. The fact that there were possibly other serial killers operating in that same area right, Unlikely as that sounds right. But we're talking about a really a wide.
Speaker 2:I mean, New York City is right there, right and they have. They have what millions of people there about?
Speaker 1:eight million. Yeah, but yeah so. So there've been a couple of actual serial killers operating in the New York Long Island area. One of them, one of the most infamous, was a guy named Joel Ripken, who's another American serial killer, and he was sentenced for murdering of nine women between 1989 and 1993. We could do a whole episode on him. We could. He could be responsible for as many as 17 people.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:But most of the evil this guy had done was in New York City. Two of his victims were found on Long Island, but they were found in Northampton and Central Pine Barrier, which is more than 50 miles away from the Yolgo Beach, and he was arrested in 1993.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, the first victim was Karen Vertigata, of all the people that we've discussed today, and she was last seen in 1996.
Speaker 1:So probably not him. Him being arrested in 1993. But this made people think of him Right, Because another thing he dismembered the bodies and placed different body parts in different areas.
Speaker 2:Just as the yeah that's really interesting. Yeah, so we should do a whole episode on him.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Actually, the guy one of the guys, I'm sorry I don't remember the name of the other podcast, but he said he thinks that potentially the Liske or Pyrrhamon called his show what and contacted the show that's crazy Saying that he really thought that the Liske was actually a guy named John Bitterhoff. And Bitterhoff murdered two prostitutes and is a suspect in the third case, and his DNA was collected on two sex workers named Colleen McNamee and Rita Tourette. And and, but he was. He was also convicted in jail At that time, Right About that same time. So so it's this one talk show, this one podcast. Rather, someone called in he said no, you know, I don't think, I think it was, you're not going to see anymore because it was this John Bitterhoff. So was that actually this dude calling in to try to throw people off the case? Probably he was so intensely interested in literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of searches. Things like crazy.
Speaker 1:Why have they found the Liske? You know? And? And why? Paranoid? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. So, you know it's. It's a case that is terrifying. It's a case that I hope ends up in in him going to jail for a long time, absolutely, for killing the people that he killed. Joel Rifkin received a 203 a year jail sentence.
Speaker 2:That's what I like to hear.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'm not sure if they have the death penalty in New York. I know it's not ordinarily, you know.
Speaker 2:I don't think they do quite often yeah.
Speaker 1:But but he, this guy in Long Island, so I don't know.
Speaker 2:I have no idea, long Island is New York.
Speaker 1:So we will be keeping an eye on this case, as all of you will, I'm sure. And once again, my God, just amazing. Since just last year and since the beginning of the year, you know, they caught this dude and yeah, the police officer in New York this year has been phenomenal, this task force are here.
Speaker 1:One of our heroes here is the police commissioner, rodney Harrison, who when he came in, he came in from the New York City Police Department and he was I think he was the chief of detectives there, wow, and he said he was going to use everything he learned to find this dude Good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, good for him.
Speaker 1:So, and then, of course, you know the canine officer, john Malin, and his dog, blue. I love Blue. I love Blue too. Blue is the best, and even to an extent, whether they were running some kind of a scheme or not, this David Schaler guy, who was the roommate of Amber Costello and told people exactly what to look for. You're looking for like a benevolent Shrek character is what you're looking for who drives a Chevy Avalanche. And when they finally got everything together and they got that information and then they started looking at him and narrowing things down.
Speaker 2:And he really helped?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Absolutely. And then there was Manhattan and there was this portion of Long Island right.
Speaker 2:And also maybe Mannerville, where he lived.
Speaker 1:Maybe Mannerville as well, but as of right now, no, so anyways. So that is our current, up to date portion of Lisk.
Speaker 2:As of yesterday, apparently, as they just had more as of yesterday, right?
Speaker 1:So are there two killers or there are three killers? We don't know. More to come and we will be following up. Caroline has told me she's going to watch the trial and yeah, I'm interested to watch the trial. Please be sure to join us again next week as we take a little bit of a deeper dive and a look at one of the more pivotal people in this story the tragic life of Shannon Gilbert.
Speaker 2:Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on.
Speaker 1:And remember. All of the source material will be available in the show notes.
Speaker 2:And follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the shadows and let us know if you want to hear a specific case.
Speaker 1:Or if you just want to give us some feedback.
Speaker 2:Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.
