What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
The Evolution of a Predator: A Golden State Ghoul
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What if the quiet neighborhoods of Visalia were hiding a dark secret? Join us as we unravel the chilling chronicles of California’s most infamous criminals in our latest episode of "What We Lose in the Shadows." We begin with a casual chat about the blistering heat in the Northeast and the delightful climate of San Diego—perfect for the American Library Association's conference. Caroline and I emphasize the importance of staying hydrated before we shift gears to discuss the notorious rise of crime in 1970s Visalia. Uncover the eerie transformation of the Cordova cat burglar into the East area rapist and beyond.
Prepare to be gripped by the harrowing accounts of those who survived the terror of the East Area Rapist, later unmasked as the Golden State Killer. Hear the stories of Phyllis Henneman and Jane Carson Sandler, whose courage and resilience in the face of unimaginable horrors are truly inspiring. We also highlight the pivotal role of true crime writer Michelle McNamara in bringing national attention to this case, which tragically ended with her passing in 2016. Finally, discover how detective Paul Holes used groundbreaking DNA technology to crack a case that had haunted California for decades. This episode promises a compelling exploration of criminal minds, the enduring spirit of survivors, and the relentless pursuit of justice.
Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com
Background music by Michael Shuller Music
Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the Shadows a father-daughter true crime podcast. My name is Jamison Keys.
Speaker 2I'm Caroline Hello.
Speaker 1How you doing? I'm good. How are you? I'm doing well, it is beastly hot in the Northeast, I know yeah. I think as we record this, it's almost 99 degrees outside, so everything is tempered a little bit by the extreme heat.
Speaker 2And it's not even 7 pm Friday.
Speaker 1No.
Speaker 2You don't know that reference, but it's a song.
Speaker 1Yeah, I was curious what that was it's a song.
Speaker 2Yeah, I was curious what that was. Um, yeah, it has been tough to go to work and walk around and like take the subways and everything.
Speaker 1Oh, my goodness so I normally work from home as you must be nice yeah, so. So, um, that that's good, uh, from the standpoint of you know, bad weather or heat or something like that. So my trip to work is normally about I don't know about a minute from your bed. Yeah, from my bed.
Speaker 2So maybe 30 seconds maybe 30 seconds. That's a nice commute, yeah it's a nice commute, it's manageable. Also, make sure if you guys are having this heat wave, make sure you're drinking enough water. I recently was told that you're supposed to drink half your weight in ounces in water. So if you're 140 pounds, you drink 70 ounces of water a day without exercising. So if you exercise, add more. If it's hot outside, add more. So make sure you're drinking enough water.
Speaker 1I haven't weighed 140 pounds since probably junior high school. That's crazy. Or maybe I was a freshman, I think I still, probably because you're short.
Speaker 2Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1It's okay, I'm short too.
Speaker 2Not that short. So you went to San Diego. How was that so?
Speaker 1I was really terrified. I went out there for the American library associations conference in San Diego at the latter part of last month, the first part of this month, and I got to say I was terrified because it was in the mid 90s here and I thought, you know, it's so close to Mexico, it's probably going to be like 110 degrees, but it was so nice, it was so pleasant, it was like 70, some odd degrees. Just, oh my God, I thought, ok, I could stay here Because everyone was so chill, right, the food was excellent, you know, we were really close to the bay and all that kind of thing.
Speaker 2So it was ish. Fish was fresh.
Speaker 1Fish. I had one or two fish deals. I'm not a big fish lover Really, I didn't know that actually, but no, but everything, all the food was remarkably good, so but yeah, I'm like, no, no, I do have to get back to my real life, but San Diego is lovely.
Speaker 2Yeah, I haven't been, but I heard it's like big queer city, so I would like to go and see.
Speaker 1That wouldn't surprise me. It was really, really, it was really a diverse population when you're out walking around.
Speaker 2That's so cute population when you're out walking around.
Speaker 1It's very representative of us as a nation.
Speaker 2Trigger warnings for today are kidnapping, pedophilia, rape and murder.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's kind of an unsettling boost right there, right after we talked about how pleasant San Diego was. But I'll tell you what. Let's stay on the West Coast. You know, back in college I took a variety of courses. You know, testing the waters with this and that. So I took a few criminal justice courses, including an introduction to criminology. I liked the courses, although I really didn't think I was made. Back then in college a million years ago. Was the word modus operandi what? Modus operandi, which is a Latin word which basically means method of operation?
Speaker 2Modus operandi Right.
Speaker 1Or MO oh. It can apply to business and did originally anyways, but it can also be referred to and normally now is referred to with regard to criminal activity Interesting. Some people think that criminals stick to the same way of committing their crimes, and in the cases of serial murders they tend to adhere to sort of a ritual, if you will. Most of it is fed by a dangerous psychosis, but not all criminals use the same playbook and not everyone sticks to what they've always done.
Speaker 1Visalis is a city in the San Joaquin Valley I hope I'm pronouncing that right but out in California. Okay, it happens to be largely tied to agriculture, and while it's only the 40th largest city by population in California, it back in the 70s, like many places, was viewed as largely safe. In the 1970s, though, it did turn around and became the training ground for something truly terrifying. From 1973 to 1976, crime was on the rise there. Smaller crimes initially, like you know, a string of robberies, and it happened in that little town. There was a suspect they started to call the Cordova cat burglar. Later, another community noticed a large spike in crime and they called this person the Exeter ransacker.
Speaker 2I wonder why they call them cat burglars I, I think.
Speaker 1I I'm not positive about that, but in some cases, um, I think that when they broke into multiple store or second floor apartments or something like that, they had to be agile, oh wow, and so I think that's where the term cat burglar came from.
Speaker 2Uh, an agile criminal sounds horrible isn't it?
Speaker 1That's true, but but those things really not all that memorable activities that these two people were one person basically took part in were things like breaking into houses. They'd rifle through and vandalize the owner's possessions. He or she paid a lot of attention to women's underclothing.
Speaker 2Yeah, let's be honest, that's probably not a she.
Speaker 1Probably true. But you know also things that were stolen, were you know it really depended? I mean, there were things of low value, you know, and there were things like banknotes and things like that that were, you know, of higher value, that were just setting out in plain sight. That's interesting. The ransacker would also often, you know, like I said, arrange different things in the house, including some of the things that they stole. You know, things like piggy banks and coin jars, and they often included something called blue chip stamps.
Speaker 2Interesting.
Speaker 1Do you know what a blue chip stamp is?
Speaker 2No, I'm young.
Speaker 1So a blue chip stamp, like when I was a little boy when you would go to different merchants. They would try to compete for your business and most everything was a small business. Then you still had some large department stores but it wasn't nearly as proliferated like it is today. So merchants trying to win your business, they came up with this promotional or marketing program called Blue Stamps or Green Stamps on the East Coast and I guess Blue Stamps on the west east coast and I guess blue stamps on the west coast, and you would go in and when you buy something from a grocery store to a furniture store or whatever, they would give you a certain number of stamps for the purchase.
Speaker 1Right, and they were looked like stamps, they were physically something you, they picked up and you got green stamps or blue stamps with with these things and you would collect them, as antiquated as it sounds, in like a little album. And once you got so many you went to um, you know you, they, they put out books, books and things that said this piece of you know equipment or this piece of furniture or this, whatever choose a consumer item is x number of stamps. So people collected this stuff and that's one of the things that the psychopath stole that's really interesting.
Speaker 2Obviously they don't do that anymore, right? No, but I've never heard of that.
Speaker 1But think about it like in the same sense as rewards program, rewards program, that's what it was, but they didn't have the internet back then, of course, so it took a very, very different, uh, very, very different path, but so interesting but yeah like you know, you get air miles and I stay with uh marriott hotels. So I have bonvoy points and that kind of thing and you trade them in for free nights or free air travel or whatever that's so interesting right and so so this person took those things as well.
Speaker 1But also you know foreign coins and personal items and weird things like you know a single earring, a single cufflink or rings or medallions just trying to like get into a person's head, maybe just trying to like bother that person.
Speaker 2Well, you know, let them know they were there.
Speaker 1Well, my initial reaction was, you know, when I first started researching this. I'm like that's something a child would steal coins and stuff like that, one earring but yeah that's when it starts to get freaky so later this person started to steal weapons as well.
Speaker 1he stole at least six weapons plus a variety of ammunition types. Ransacking was common as well, so it included 12 different incidents, for example, in one day in 1974. The thief was getting more bold and the little community which is about 10 miles away from Exeter. A police officer there named James D'Angelo was one of the people assigned to investigating the string of burglars in the area. The night of September 10th 1975 was a fairly normal night for Elizabeth Snelling. She was the daughter of Professor Claude Snelling and she was a 16-year-old and went to Mount Whitney High School Spending an evening at home with her family and her boyfriend. It was a hot day in California, unlike when I was in San Diego, and the windows were open because their air conditioner had been acting up. Her boyfriend went home around 10 pm and the rest of the family went to bed shortly after that.
Speaker 2And they left the windows open.
Speaker 1Yes, well, screens, but the windows open. That's terrifying. Now, six months before that night, claude snelling, the professor, arrived home one night late to find a prowler at his daughter's window. Now he prowler a prowler, someone just looking in the window at her.
Surviving the East Area Rapist
Speaker 1So he chased after the man, but he was younger than professor snelling and the man was able to, you know, slip away in the darkness that's terrifying now, the only description claude was able to give them was the prowler was white man, between 5, 10 and 6 foot tall, and he had collar length hair and he was wearing a dark plaid long sleeve shirt the height is intense. That's scary well he get here. He's gauging it from his own height and whatnot. So um, the police checked the yard and under the little girl's window they identified shoe prints, and those shoe prints matched those found to the vasalia ransacker burglaries terrifying on that fateful night in 1975, the stendling's teenage daughter woke up to immense pressure on her body oh no and the feeling of being suffocated.
Speaker 1She realizes someone was lying prone on top of her with their right hand covering her nose and her mouth. That's terrifying. And the left hand was forcing her down. Now, she wasn't initially completely terrified because her brother had done something similar to her before, as a joke.
Speaker 2Ew, weird joke. That's also really creepy. Really weird joke.
Speaker 1But that was not what was happening here. When she looked up, she noticed a ski mask and some very, very angry eyes staring at her angry eyes.
Speaker 2He burst in and he's angry demented eyes.
Speaker 1How's that?
Speaker 2yeah, how's that?
Speaker 1uh. So she struggled to remove the hand from her mouth and and as she did so, she could feel his breath on her face. One of the braces that was holding the bed up snapped from the extra weight and as she tried to resist the man, he growled at her. He said don't scream or I'll stab you. She didn't see the knife, but she believed his threat was real. He removed his hand from her face and he said you're coming with me? With his left hand he reached back and removed a gun from his back pocket. Then he got her off the bed. He grabbed her by the left arm and began to pull her toward the back door. Just then Mr Snelling had heard the noise and yelled at the man, saying stop and release my daughter, which the assailant did. As the professor pursued the man, the guy turned and shot Mr Snelling once in the shoulder and one more time, the second time being fatal.
Speaker 2Wow, that's horrible.
Speaker 1The young girl was screaming and still terrified. She was completely exhausted from trying to fight this grown man and the attacker came back and kicked her violently in the face two to three times. Now this seems to be a point of acceleration from this creep right. Yeah, soon. After that things would get worse. Phyllis Henneman was 22 when she was attacked on June 18th 1976 in her Sacramento home. Her attack was widely considered the first rape attributed to the East End rapist. According to the Los Angeles Times, this is an alternative name for this ransacker. This is an alternative name for what they started to call the night stalker, the ramirez, who was originally. He was the night stalker years later and much on bigger arc, much more publicized arc, but they called this guy the night stalker at first. Uh, henneman's mother had just died 18 months before that and her dad was out of town on work. How old is she, uh? At this time she is 22, yeah, and uh, like I said, her mother had just died.
Speaker 118 months before that her dad was out of town, uh on on business. So hedeman said in a victim impact statements. Year later, uh, that was read by her sister, karen. Hedeman finds uh the assailant in her bedroom doorway wearing a ski mask. He jumped onto the bed and pressed a four-inch knife blade into my right temple, the result of which was a small cut that appeared above her eyebrow. Before tying her up with a cord, he brought that as well. He found a fabric belt in her closet and stuffed a nylon strip into her mouth to gag her. He raped her then he rummaged through the house as she remained tied up. After the rapist left, henneman managed to call for help. She was able to get a hand free from her back and knock the phone off of its cradle and somehow she was able to find the zero and press zero. So the 911 operator was able to hear her.
Speaker 1That used to be zero instead of 911 she's just trying to get an operator at that point. Sometimes, if you're making a long distance phone call, you can dial zero and get the operator. Interesting, the operator would connect you. Wow, the second rape, uh was jane carson's, uh, jane carson sandler did these two women survive?
Speaker 2they both did the one girl and then the one young woman.
Speaker 1Right. They both survived. Jane Carson Sandler was assaulted at the age of 30 when the rapist broke into her Citrus Heights home in 1976. She and her three-year-old son were snuggling in bed. Her husband had just left her work and the little boy came in and jumped into bed with his mom when a man broke in, left her work and the little boy came in and jumped into bed with his mom. When a man broke in, he ran down the hallway uh and flashed a flashlight in her face. She told abc news in 2018. He was wearing a ski mask.
Speaker 1This was in 2018 that she told abc news that she was silent for a long time. So he was wearing a ski mask and holding a butcher knife. He tied up a car, uh, carson sandler, who was at that point studying to be a nurse, and her son with shoelaces. He then raped her and, uh, after he left, she managed to pull a blindfold off and, uh, her child was fortunately uh, in in bed with her. The guy had removed her, the child initially, and then brought him back, so she was just terrified words my child, yeah, of course, of course that's horrible so she became one of the uh east area rapist victims uh one of the first ones to publicly identify herself wow, it's important.
Speaker 2She became the first one like one of the first ones, one of the first ones to identify herself but she just spoke to them in 2018.
Speaker 1She gave a victim impact statement in 2018. Oh, okay, so she was one of the first ones to publicly come out and she said it was important for her to bring her pain to power Absolutely To help empower other victims. She explained to ABC News she was interviewed on Investigation Discovery Channel's Dark Minds in 2013. She even wrote about her harrowing experience in a book entitled Frozen in Fear A True Story of Surviving the Shadow of Death.
Speaker 2That's terrifying.
Speaker 1Two sisters in Sacramento County were home on July 17, 1976. One of them was Peggy Fink. She came forward in August of 2020 to deliver her impact statement, explaining that she was 15 years old when the monster broke into her home, tied both she and her sister, 16 years old, up. They were bound so tightly that her hands were made numb for months after the fact. Uh, the creep beat her so badly, oh my god, it was difficult for her to brush her hair afterwards. Things said that the man you know raped her repeatedly that night. My God, she said we were just high school students trying to live a normal life at the time. 44 years later, she still doesn't feel safe and remains hyper, hyper vigilant.
Speaker 2Absolutely. It's a very traumatic event for survivors. For sure, this is a lot of victims already. How many years has this gone for?
Speaker 1This is only a few years. At this point, uh, one news report commented that all of the attacks took place when men were not present yeah, no, it makes sense because it's men see other men as a threat.
Speaker 2Um, and even if, like women are fully capable of like defending themselves, like if they have like training or if they're in the military, or if they're cops or this, that whatever, like men still don't see them as like threatening yeah it's crazy.
Speaker 1Shortly after that, reporters said that Bob and Gay Harwick, when they're 20s, when they became the first victims of the East Area Rapist, as a couple.
Speaker 2Oh.
Speaker 1At their home in Stockton in 1978,. At that point, the predator had begun to be known as the Night Stalker, a serial killer, rapist in the Sacramento Valley area who targeted both men and women and couples. Oh, he saw it as like a challenge he did, unfortunately I don't understand how these people get to this like level of, like depravity, like what is going on yeah, no kidding, uh, by 1978, when he attacked the heartworks, the east side rapist, violence started to escalate.
Speaker 1He was beginning to murder people that's terrifying in 1977 there was a town hall meeting for residents worried about the attacks in their community. A man stood up in the middle of the meeting and said if the rapist broke into his house he would defend his wife and he would kill the attacker without thinking twice about it. Two months later, the man and his wife were attacked by the rapist. That's so sad. The monster must have been in the audience pretending to be a concerned citizen.
Speaker 2That is terrifying.
Speaker 1John D'Angelo, the police officer we mentioned formerly, was, by this point, serving as a police officer in Auburn, California, from the years from 1976 to 1979. He was fired for stealing a hammer and dog repellent. The Associated Press reports citing the Auburn Journal's article at the time. That's weird. In February of 1978, Brian and Katie Maggiore were walking their dog in Sacramento. A man walked up to them and pulled a gun. After he shot Brian, Katie Maggiore ran and tried to yell for help, but the killer caught her and shot her in the head. Wow. On December 30th 1979, Deborah Manning and Robert Offerman were killed in Goleta.
Speaker 2How many people is this? This is a lot of people. This is like 10 by now.
Speaker 1In 1980, Keith and Patricia Harrington were slain in their home in Dana Point, Southern California.
Speaker 2Wow.
Speaker 1In 1981, cheryl Domingo and Gregory Sanchez were killed in Goleta. Sanchez was shot and beaten to death, bludgeoned in the head more than two dozen times, and there were other murders. There was Alexandra Manning and Dr Robert Offerman. Charlene Smith and Lyman Smith were both. She was raped. So this went on and on. No crimes were attributed to the original light stalker or the East Area Rapist after 1981 interesting until 1986 when 18 year old janelle cruz was killed. Cruz was bound, raped and bludgeoned to death.
Speaker 1Uh, prosecutors said that is horrible that was the last crime known by this killer. Okay, then the murderer seemed to have disappeared for decades and the rape seemed to have stopped. The police were still, of course, working, but it had become a cold case. That's when Michelle McNamara enters the picture. Michelle was an author and true crime blogger, and she became obsessed with finding the killer or killers. One of the problems that she saw was the cases had been taken. You know basically the length from Northern California to Southern California. Police departments in the 70s and 80s didn't always share information with one another.
Speaker 2I wonder if they've improved this or not. I think so. I mean, I would hope they improved a little, but I wonder how like common it actually is.
Speaker 1Right, but people began to ask wait a minute, why didn't you link these cases together? Why aren't you? These seem to be very similar, right, I think out of pressure and out of the fact that most police officers and district attorneys want to actually find the person perpetrating crimes. By the time she took up the fight in 2013, it was commonly understood that one person had committed at least 50 rapes, 13 murders and literally hundreds of robberies, being one of the most prolific criminals in history.
Speaker 2That's crazy.
Speaker 1He had been referred to, as I said before, as a variety of things the East Area Rapist, the original Light Stalker.
Speaker 2But the craziest part is that most sexual assaults are not reported. True, so that's a low number.
Speaker 1Well, true, and a lot of these people came to light after the fact, but still, but still. But still it's crazy. So, Michelle, who coined the phrase? The Golden State Killer?
Speaker 1and that name stuck and the beautiful part about that it resonates with people. You know, Michelle went back to the crime scenes and spoke to the detectives in all the towns and all the cities. She felt she was getting really close to finding the killer. Wow, she was even writing a book when she passed away in her sleep 2016. Wow, she was actually married to a comedian named Patton Oswalt A comedian.
Speaker 2That's so funny. What a different like one a comedian and one true crime blogger.
Speaker 1Right and you know he, he said she was. He'll say, if you see interviews with him, um, he was. She was far, far brighter than him, far, far more intelligent and it was devastating. I'm sure, according to the coroner's report, the she had a lethal combination of prescription drugs, an undiagnosed uh heart condition, and that caused the problem.
Speaker 2Wow, fentanyl oh, was, involved.
Speaker 1Wow, even back then and the story might have stopped there if it weren't for a detective by the name of Paul Holes, who spent decades working in the California crime scenes. Holes, who, by the 2010s, was a cold case investigator for the Contra County Sheriff's Office. He had at one point thought the DNA might be the evidence that would unlock everything. So there was a lot of evidence still available from the 70s and 80s.
Speaker 2This is in the 2010s, yeah, and they didn't test the DNA yet.
Speaker 1So he downloaded. When he started working some of these cases, he uploaded it to the CODIS file, which is the third largest DNA group in the world CODIS, codis and California in particular. Oh okay, so the problem was they tested it, they put it in the system. No match Interesting, which means the person had never been arrested, arrested, yeah, or given their sample.
Speaker 1So Holes in kind of a Hail. Mary contacted Barbara Rae Vettner, a geniatric, genealogist, a biologist and a retired patent attorney, and she put the sample into GenMatch, which is often used to find lost relatives.
Speaker 1What they found was the family of John James D'Ang'angelo oh, that first guy that you were talking about that's right, the former police officer that was working on his own case, who was working early on the burglary cases, of course. And they thought, well, it's really weird. None of this evidence, there's nothing really linking these people, there's no fingerprints, there's no nothing. And why is that?
Speaker 2because he knew, because he was working on the cases and if he found anything like a skew he would fix it. I'm sure exactly that's crazy exactly.
Speaker 1But by this time you know, you know, uh, dna had become a thing, codis was a real thing, people were finding relatives and he and so, uh, detective holes basically sent this in. He created, uh, basically a sample and sent it into this, alongside this lady who was helping him, as just someone trying to find their long-lost relatives. But they did find D'Angelo's family. That's crazy. So they narrowed it down, saying that D'Angelo was the right age.
Speaker 1He was indeed a white man, between 5, 10 and 6 foot tall, and he lived in the areas or close to the areas or adjacent to the areas yeah, that everything happened he had moved from northern california to southern california, just as the rapist and killer had done that's crazy and they found it because of dna right once again not like dna, but like the genealogy right exactly so, just in like several of recent cases, like the gilgo beach murders and so on, the detectives followed him around, he discarded the tissue and that was the final nail for the prosecution I always find that so interesting.
Speaker 2Like people think like, oh, I'm just gonna throw this away. But whenever you get rid of something in like a public area like, it becomes public property. Yeah, even if you throw it away outside of your house like to get collected, I've heard that's also public property right, because your trash can is now on the curb on the street which is now public property.
Speaker 1so, uh, after finding that information, on april 24th the california authorities charged then 72 year old d'angelo with eight counts of first degree murder. He almost got away with it, almost did. It was 40 years, at least, from the time the first crimes were happening and he stopped. And he stopped. That we know.
Speaker 2Yeah, that we know, because I'm like, how do you like do that and then just stop Right.
Speaker 1That doesn't really make sense but due to a pre-2017 statute, the limitation on rape cases precluded them from what's public that is so disturbing.
Speaker 2Yeah, why would they have a statue of limitations on rape?
Speaker 1I don't know, but they did. There's a, there's an incident, they probably still do.
Speaker 2that's that needs to change, because that is not like a robbery or like a drug-related crime. That's a violent, horrific crime. Right, it really should be without limitation, without a statute of limitation.
Speaker 1I agree, just like murder. Yes, but he wasn't charged because of that, but he was charged with the murders as part of the plea bargain that spared his life and they didn't allow him to put him to death. D'angelo also admitted to numerous crimes, including many of the rape cases.
Speaker 2So I guess I'm confused. He admitted to it, but it's too late to charge him.
Speaker 1Well, OK, so they tied him to 13 murders. So that means he'll spend the rest of his life in jail.
Speaker 2I mean he's 72.
Speaker 1there's no possibility of him ever getting out. Even if he was 22, yeah, he would still be in jail for the rest of his life. You?
Speaker 2think that you never know some of these cases.
Speaker 1I'm like how are they out, you know, right, exactly, crazy so, but basically, um, you know, as of august 2020, he started his sentence and it was has been imprisoned and will be there for the rest of his life I'm sure.
Speaker 2But so my thing is is like he admitted to the sexual assaults but isn't going to get charged with them because of the statute of limitations, correct?
Speaker 1but they added more time on and made sure that he'll never get out of prison yeah with the murders and the rapes on top of them, and to give the family some solace, to give the family some closure. Yeah, they made him, as part of him not getting the death penalty, saying you have to admit to these, these different rapes that we know you did yeah and that's what he did my thing is I just think it's so interesting, like, especially as a 72 year old criminal.
Speaker 2he's like no, I can't die 72. Well, he's 72 and he's going to be in jail forever. It's very interesting to me Well the desire to live sometimes. I know it's interesting. You know logic, it's all logic.
Speaker 1Yeah, but so yeah, I mean, I remember when this broke. I remember when they talked about the Golden State Killer and so on. I had no idea that I had this much of a backstory, had this much, you know, this legs like this that went from Northern California to Southern California. You have to wonder, though are there more cases out there Of course yes, always, I feel like there always are.
Speaker 1So I don't know, I'm also, I don't know, I'm really bothered by the crime, the blogger, ms McNamara. I'm really really weirded out by how she died.
Speaker 2It is very suspicious.
Speaker 1I'm really weirded out by how she died. It is very suspicious, but yeah, so that is one more thing for the advances in science, one more event that was, one more criminal that was brought to justice because of DNA research, by genetic research and stuff like that. It's a great thing.
Speaker 2It's one of the biggest advancements in law enforcement. Yeah, it is. It's really interesting too because, like when this guy was doing the um, the crimes, like he had no idea that that was even going to be a possibility, like there was no, like you know what I mean. You can't outthink science right, exactly, and like scientific, like advances.
Speaker 1I just think that's so interesting he got away with it for 40 plus years 40 years, he thought he was he thought he was good to go yeah, that's crazy, and he got to live like an extra 40 years just out like doing whatever he wanted after taking people's lives right disturbing but but a lot of the women actually lined up in, you know, in their victim impact statements and he had to sit there and he had to listen to all of them, the cane doesn care many um that kind of person doesn't care right?
Speaker 1well, he's a sociopath, he's an animal, he's not human.
Speaker 2Yeah right, the sad part is he is but he isn't, but he is. I know it's scary, right, that's a possibility but real humans.
Speaker 1I mean people with actual souls and hearts and minds.
Speaker 2I know, but that's the thing is, like we all are human. So so, like, what is the difference? It's so interesting, like it's like why and I think that's why people are so interested in true crime. One reason is because it's so crazy to think that, like people that walk among us can do these horrific things. For sure it's wild and I don't understand it. That's so crazy.
Speaker 2So human nature, but it's good to know that another one of these creeps is behind parsh for the rest of his life, absolutely the next, like six years, or whatever he lasts, like 72. The shorter the better. Very true. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on and remember.
Speaker 1All of the source material will be available in the show notes.
Speaker 2And follow us on Instagram at whatweloseintheshadows, and let us know if you want to hear a specific case.
Speaker 1Or if you just want to give us some feedback.
Speaker 2Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.
