What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
Giselle Pellico's Fight for Truth and Justice
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In a powerful narrative of courage, we share Giselle Pellico's harrowing testimony as she confronts the decade-long betrayal perpetrated by her husband. Her unwavering strength in waiving anonymity has made her a beacon of hope for survivors of sexual assault. This episode delves into the disturbing details of her case, challenging notions of consent and justice. As we conclude with an invitation to engage with us on social media, we encourage you to share your thoughts and suggest topics for future episodes. Your voice is vital in our ongoing pursuit of justice and understanding.
Who Is Gisèle Pelicot? French Rape Case, Explained.
Gisèle Pelicot: Inside the rape trial that shocked the world | The Independent
Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com
Background music by Michael Shuller Music
Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the Shadows a father-daughter true crime podcast. My name is Jamison Keys.
Speaker 2I'm Caroline. Hello, happy New Year. Well, happy New Year to you, caroline. How are you today? I'm great. How are you? Very good. I'm very excited and very hopeful for the new New Year to you, caroline.
Speaker 1How are you today? I'm great. How are you Very good. I'm very excited and very hopeful for the new year, like you always are.
Speaker 2What are your New Year's resolutions?
Speaker 1Hmm, that's interesting. So to kind of even out things in terms of I tend to focus on one thing in my life and then focus on another thing. I'm trying to be more even keel and trying to accomplish a lot of different things this year as I get a little older and maybe you know thinking about retirement in the next few years. So just some things related to that and, you know, maybe looking for that special lady.
Speaker 2That's funny, absolutely.
Speaker 1And your use. Resolutions are.
Speaker 2Mine are to be more punctual.
Speaker 1Yes, for sure. I think that's a good one.
Speaker 2I think I'm just a few minutes late to everything. So I'm trying to be early so I can be on time and I want to be a little more patient.
Speaker 1Yeah, you're fairly patient, aren't you?
Speaker 2It depends on the situation. But yeah, those are my new year's resolutions fantastic.
Speaker 1So, as we start the new year, I thought it was a good idea. We've we've had more than 50 uh, someone episodes 53 or 54 episodes, yay, um, and I thought it'd be a good time to kind of look back on last year and give some updates on some of the cases we worked on.
Speaker 2Good idea. I have an update for you.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2I have an update about Wade Wilson. Yeah, god, the murderer um, who killed two women for no reason. Yeah, Wade Wilson was sentenced in August, at the end of August, and he was sentenced to two uh death sentences.
Speaker 1How was that, I mean? I mean, I understand that they want to point out this was so incredibly horrific that we want to make sure that this guy receives the judgment that he was adjudicated with. But how do you do two death sentences, do you? I don't want to make light of that, not sure, but that's kind of ridiculous. I mean, it's like two life sentences too.
Speaker 2I guess.
Speaker 1so yeah, I think it's just like if something were to fall through with the one case, you wouldn't make sure you're prosecuted.
Speaker 2Maybe, yeah, I don't know. I thought they were prosecuted together, so that's why I was confused about the two death sentences. But I mean, I guess it's just to make a point.
Speaker 1I guess it's just to make a point, absolutely yeah. Yeah, he's as vile a creature as I've ever seen and, just like the case with the insurance executive that we really didn't cover much because it was overexposed different places. But it's odd because Wade Wilson has a cadre of people that are fans of his and women that are sending him letters. Same thing with this fellow, luigi, right.
Speaker 2I think it's different. I don't get that. Yeah, it's different. Those two cases are different.
Speaker 1Oh, for sure, Because obviously mental health was an issue in both these cases, yes, and both involved in death. One was innocent, so the two women were innocent, right.
Speaker 2But and both involved in death. One was innocent, so the two women were innocent, right, and the CEO is not.
Speaker 1Not innocent entirely, but I mean but. But. But I mean he certainly didn't deserve to be shot down in the street.
Speaker 2I mean that's crazy, it's not? Yeah, no, he didn't deserve that, but that's. Those are two separate cases, for sure.
Speaker 1You know what they do have in common, though. I mean, I know that both of these we'll call them men just for reckoning here, but both of them were estranged from their family. They broke off conversations with their family, like Wade Wilson had not talked to his father for years, but finally called him for help after the fact. And then you know this luigi fellow um mangione, is that yeah?
Speaker 2mangione his family had been trying to get in touch with him for six months or so on, and mental health is is something that, um, the united states doesn't take as seriously as they should, for sure, and I think there's like some societal components of like some shame involved with getting help for mental issues, which I don't quite understand. I think that we as a country really need to focus more on especially men's mental health.
Speaker 1No, you're right, because the vast majority of these crimes that we cover are committed by men. Yes, by far and away.
Speaker 2With mental health issues.
Speaker 1With mental health issues. And yeah, I think even if I honestly think that and I don't want to go down a weird rabbit hole here but I think, if you're going to focus on one thing medically for everyone in the United States, I think one of those things would be free mental health care for everyone. You know. Free at least to being able to talk to someone, talk to a counselor, because you and I are both big believers in that sort of thing.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1And I think that the world would be a better place if there's just someone, because not everyone has a friend that you can confide on, doesn't have a family member that you can confide in, exactly.
Speaker 2Yeah, the lack of support system or the rejection of a support system, either way, you know, is definitely something that you know doesn't pair well with mental health issues, Right? So, yeah, what's your update?
Speaker 1So in another update, sean P Diddy Combs had kind of a bad Christmas. As you're well aware, he's been in jail since he was arrested months ago and apparently he had a real problem over the Thanksgiving and kind of Christmas holiday. He had tried everything, tried to put up money, tried to put up bonds and things like that, but the judge in the case and rightly so is not letting him out. It didn't let him out and I think it's straightforward why he didn't because there's a real problem with all this that maybe you know. Maybe he would try to intimidate, if he were out, some of the witnesses.
Speaker 2Well, also, you don't get to traffic children and sexually assault children and women and probably men like you. Don't get to just sexually assault, like tons of people, and then get out and wait for your trial.
Speaker 1No, right he was. He was offering, you know, bonds on his some of his, you know, multi-million dollar properties and offered to stay in with an ankle. You know uh monitoring system and so on he has too much money.
Speaker 2Yeah, he can get. He can get that off, are you?
Speaker 1kidding well, and or pay someone to wear the damn thing yes, literally.
Speaker 1I mean there, I didn't know, it's just a no so apparently, uh, he, he had a like, apparently the, the food and and I and I saw some kind of a thing where, you know, like, um, like on thanksgiving day, you know, the meals are like breakfast. He could have it at 6 am and it was like a breakfast cake, you know, and then for lunch Interesting A Cornish game, hen or barbecue tofu on the side, and then dinner was like peanut butter, jelly sandwiches and potato chips. I shouldn't laugh about that, but given this guy's lavish lifestyle that he's on, this Spartan kind of a thing. And it just flipped him out and he started hyperventilating and saying that they needed to take him to the, you know, the infirmary and that kind of thing. Eventually, I guess, he calmed himself down, but you know that's good.
Speaker 2I don't feel bad for him.
Speaker 1Yeah, and you know, I'm still waiting for you to shoot a drop in some of those cases in terms of some of the other people that have been involved, absolutely.
Seeking Ethical Leadership in Politics
Speaker 1And are supposed to have been involved and you have people that have left the country who Well, there's a lot of people you know, well I don't want to like. Ellen DeGeneres left the country. Ellen DeGeneres left the country and claimed she's never coming back because of the election results. Oh, but some people speculate that maybe there's more to that. Ellen DeGeneres, she was a friend, she went to some of those parties, so maybe that's a yeah, but OK, I guess my thing is with these parties, like is everyone there?
Speaker 2Did everyone there? Anyone who ever went to those parties know everything or anything that was going on. I don't think so.
Speaker 1No because I think there are two tiers of the parties, Like they have these white parties which you know.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1Celebrities like Leonardo DiCaprio was real. You know chummy Ashton Kutcher went to some of those parties and you know they're really kind of. There's a lot of nervous people in Hollywood.
Speaker 2Well, they should do a deep dive and see who was involved and who knew about things. I think that that's fair, but like I'm assuming that not everyone who went to these things knew what was going on, because it happened later in the night. I've heard.
Speaker 1Right, but some of the white parties they would get, you know, kind of wild and so on, but not to the point. And then there was parties. After the parties. There's a clip from the Conan O'Brien show and he's talking about parties and Conan's like you know what makes a good party, and he kind of went into. Did he let a couple things slip, like you know, you need to do this and you need to have a lot of alcohol and you need to have this and locks for the doors, and he says this on and Conan O'Brien, you can just see his face go. What are we talking about there?
Speaker 2How long ago was that?
Speaker 1That was a decade, you know, like a decade ago.
Speaker 2It's just so crazy to me that, like these people were out here saying this stuff and then everyone was like, oh must be harmless. Like what? Why were like? Why were the authorities not like? Hmm, that's suspicious, because money and power talk. You know, and that's why I'm happy, and I know it's not like completely cleared up and we still have like fraud and corruption and everything like that but I think that with this me too movement and with this time's up movement, things are being taken a lot more seriously.
Speaker 1Absolutely, absolutely, and, and and you know, I mean hopefully this year, if anything, um, whether you have high hopes for the new administration or or not, I mean I hope someone in the federal government looks at some of this stuff and says, listen, if you commit a crime in the United States, you know, and I don't care how big, how powerful, who you are, you know there's going to be a reckoning for you.
Speaker 2I don't think that that is the administration to do that.
Speaker 1Look at the president.
Speaker 2Like he literally just is about to clear his own charges. That's not the administration to do so.
Speaker 1Well and Joe Biden cleared his child after.
Speaker 2And that's different.
Speaker 1It is and it isn't. It is and it isn't.
Speaker 2Yeah, but I don't love Joe Biden either.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know what? Honestly, here's what we need a really forward-thinking, morally upright woman to come into power in the United States, someone that's going to do the right thing not listen to some of these groups and powerful people and just do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I would love to see that four years hence.
Speaker 2I know it's giving JFK, then look what happened to him Right? Oh, do you know?
Speaker 1what I mean. Well, listen, we can do an episode on JFK and look what happened to him, Right? Oh, do you know what I mean? Well, listen, we can do a. We can do an episode on JFK at some point in time.
Speaker 2Yeah, there's a lot of theories.
Speaker 1Well, and some of them, the more things happen, the more you're like well, there's some smoking guns.
Speaker 2But that's what I mean, like, yeah, like I would love for it to be a woman, but, honestly, like I want to see a woman president, quickly, quickly, but the right one before I die, please, please. But it doesn't even need to be a woman, it just needs to be like a person who cares about people, has empathy and has, like, a bright vision for the future, and someone who will not be persuaded by money.
Speaker 1Exactly right, I mean, and. It's hard to find in politics. Well, you know who my favorite president is? Right, teddy Roosevelt. Well, yeah, teddy Roosevelt. And one of the most beautiful things about Teddy Roosevelt was that he was independent, his family was wealthy and so on, but Teddy was like a really pro-American, pro-justice, pro-american people kind of thing. He set aside millions and millions of acres.
Speaker 2Yes for the national park system.
Speaker 1Before greed got to it. Greed got to it and developed. Can you imagine if Yellowstone Park yes?
Speaker 2I could see it.
Speaker 1And there's a resort there.
Speaker 2No, it would just be like companies, it would just be another place.
Speaker 1There would just be all condos and stuff. You'd have a condo around the big, you know, the old faithful. It would be so repulsive I agree. And he also did a lot of things like he slapped like monopoly lawsuits on. You know some of the. You know JP Morgan and some of the big powerful people of the time.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1But that's what I mean. Some of the big, powerful people of the time, yeah, but that's what I mean. But the thing about Roosevelt is like Morgan went down to the White House and he was a very prominent person. Jp Morgan was a very prominent.
Speaker 2Imagine if he was president.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2He never wanted to be president, he just wanted to be a president maker.
Speaker 1But when Roosevelt got in, he slapped this guy with a couple of lawsuits and restraining orders and stuff like that. The president no, jp Morgan slapped Roosevelt. Oh, with him. Oh, okay, morgan actually went down to DC from I think he was a New York-based gentleman. He said listen, what's going on? Do we have a problem here? I mean, if you had a problem, just have your people, talk to my people and we'll get it all worked out. And Roosevelt was like see, that's the problem that you don't understand. I don't have people.
Speaker 2I am the people. Yes.
Speaker 1And you're not going to do some of these horrendous things now. And you couldn't bribe him, Teddy, because he's not bribeable.
Speaker 2And not probable. And also he's he's a wealthy guy too. What are you going to bribe him with? I mean, I just I did. I think the most important is that he's unbribable, right? That kind of like personal moral compass. That's what we need, right? Please, whoever you are, hurry, hurry, quickly.
The Brave Testimony of Giselle Pellico
Speaker 1So let's get into the case where we're going to talk about today. So let's get into the case we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2Trigger warnings for the following are drugging, sexual assault and rape, domestic violence and trafficking.
Speaker 1Yikes, right, that's a, that's a big list.
Speaker 2Yes, it is Sadly so we talk about.
Speaker 1For the most part, we talk about a lot of cases that happen in the United States, but the United States certainly isn't the only place where shocking and troubling cases like this happen. So, in a shocking case that gripped France, a 72-year-old woman named Giselle Pellico has revealed a horrifying. You know she had a horrifying ordeal. For over a decade, betrayed by her husband of 50 years, she was subjected to sexual assault by a group of some 51 men over the years.
Speaker 2Oh, it was more. That may just be the number that they were able to stick charges with. Yeah, absolutely I think it was upward of 70.
Speaker 1I think you're right.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's insane.
Speaker 1So documents set before the court claim that Dominic, her husband, who's 71, admitted to police that he got satisfaction from watching men have sex with his unconscious wife. Many of the defendants in the case rape case charged against him claimed that they thought they were part of some consensual sex game.
Speaker 2I don't believe it.
Speaker 1But Giselle told the court that she was never complicit in the sexual acts and never pretended to be asleep.
Speaker 2Yeah, but that's the thing. If, if it was supposed to be consensual, if these men are actually like okay, like yeah, so I'm interested in this, and they want it to be consensual, they would talk to her beforehand and if everyone's consenting, okay. But obviously that didn't happen, so it's not consensual.
Speaker 1Right, and you know, giselle, a very brave woman. Even she's an older lady, and she was very brave because she waived her right to anonymity, I know To shift the blame back onto the people that are accused instead of her.
Speaker 2Yes, she has become an icon for survivors and women. Women have been seen outside of her court proceedings like with signs crying saying thank you so much or, I guess, merci. But she is so inspirational. The second you said her name like a smile came to my face because I think, especially in that age group, there's a lot of shame for having been sexually assaulted.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2And I'm really happy that she took the power out of, out of the hands of people who wanted to, like, silence her or wanted her to, you know, go away quietly or you know. I'm just happy that she was able to, you know, stand up and say, yes, this happened to me and I I'm not ashamed of it actually.
Speaker 1Right, and she said she was speaking for every woman who's been drugged without knowing, so no woman she would hope would have to suffer again from that. She recalled the moment in November of 2020 when police asked her to attend an interview alongside her husband. He'd been recently caught with some underskirt photography of women in a supermarket and Giselle told the court that she believed in a meeting that you know it was related to that incident. And, you know, police asked, started asking her about, you know, their sex life and so on, and she said she never was into you know, practicing swapping partners or anything like that.
Speaker 1But after a while they separated her and the officer said I'm going to show you some things and you're going to find, you know, very unpleasant. And he opened a folder that they found on the computer of her husband. She didn't recognize the woman who was asleep on the bed and and she said well, I don't know who this is. And the officer said madam, do you, do you recognize that bedside table? And, unfortunately, you know it's it. It she did. She realized that was in her bedroom and, um, that is so.
Speaker 2I can't even imagine a police officer showing you pictures of yourself that you have no idea that that happened to you.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean she said she asked him to stop showing pictures because it showed her inert in the bed and a man was was raping her, and she said her world fell apart. I'm sure Uh, giselle said that until their marriage she thought her their marriage had been a happy, happy one Generally. She and her husband, uh, you know, were. Uh, she and her husband, you know, had overcome a number of financial and health issues over the past and all that we had built together, she said, was gone. Their three children and seven grandchildren were the only ones that Giselle was kind of concerned about at this point. Of course she said I just wanted to disappear but I had to tell my children that their father was under arrest. I asked my son-in-law to stay, stay with my daughter and you know told him that her father had raped me and had she'd been raped by others. And you know she, they just went through the trial and she was very brave, spoke every day, like you said.
Speaker 1Uh and the police have um concluded and the her husband was convicted Good Um different things. You know he, I don't. And one of the biggest problems I convicted good um different things. You know he, I, I don't. And one of the biggest problems I have. Um, like he was so I mean he was so calculating in this he would drug her right. That's insane. And he would tell these people to undress in the kitchen and to warm their hands up, to not wear tobacco or perfume. Uh, in that, would you know, wake her up.
Speaker 2Literally like I mean, how dare these men say that it was consensual? That's obviously not consensual.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2And if you don't talk about it with the person beforehand, it's not consensual Right.
Speaker 1Doesn't matter what their partner says, who the fuck's that In an absolutely disgusting thing. Condoms were not required, no money exchanged hands and, according to the investigation, dominique watched or filmed the proceedings.
Speaker 2Eventually, you know, created a hard drive with more than 4 000 photographs and videos yeah, I would argue that it's still trafficking, even though there wasn't money exchanged because of what he got from it, like he was like enjoying it, and he got the photos, so that I would say that that is still trafficking.
Speaker 1Right Uh. Police said that the evidence they had around 200 rapes that were caught on film.
Speaker 2That's insane.
Speaker 1Between the years of 2011 and 2020, initially in their house outside of Paris and uh and then uh, but mainly in their house in Maison, which they moved to in 2013.
Speaker 2My thing is is that you know that that isn't something that he was just like. Hmm, after 40 years, I think this is what we should do now. No, this you know this was happening, this most of the time, I'm sure.
Speaker 1Yeah, and, and you know, the charges indicate that most of the rapes were carried out by her husband. You, just you know, and a lot of the men you know were just a few kilometers away from her house.
Speaker 2I just, I just really can't imagine unearthing all of this and then walking by strangers and wondering had this man raped me? That's crazy.
Speaker 1Right and she said that they showed her pictures of some of the men and she said she recognized only one.
Speaker 2Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1He was our neighbor and he came to check on our bikes and I used to see him at the bakery. He was always very polite. I had no idea that he had actually raped. That's insane. Giselle was was reminded by the judge that, in order to respect the presumption of innocence, it had been agreed to that they wouldn't use the word rape, but rather sex scene. What? But let's face it, rape is what it was.
Speaker 2No, it's alleged rape, but I guess their laws are different.
Speaker 1Right, right. She said I have no sympathy for any of the accused Fuck, no One of whom was HIV positive. Hiv positive, hiv positive, and he had come six times. Not once did her husband express any concern about her health.
Speaker 2She is Courageous. I mean this is like a legend. You know what I mean. Like this woman coming forward like this and being so brave is just and speaking for women and survivors. I mean this is like a legacy that she's building. Like this is. It's the saddest thing, but I'm so proud of her.
Speaker 1Absolutely so. Um, it was a, it was a trial. It was a. It was a internationally watched trial, but his name was Dominic, dominic Dominic, and Dominic was 72. He admitted to drugging his wife and you know he was convicted of drugging his wife and filming the rapes and raping her from 2011 to 2020 in their home in Paris and then again outside. He has been found guilty, unanimously guilty.
Speaker 2Guilty, by the way I'm sure, and there's literally video evidence right and he was sentenced to 20 years in prison.
Speaker 1Only 20 years.
Speaker 2Well, he's an older man, so he would be 92 that's fucking disgusting I agree, I agree it should be life sentence, no matter what, no parole, death, death penalty, honestly, is what I would do for that I don't believe the french have the death penalty. I don don't know if they do or not, but I'm just saying that's what I would hand out. I was the judge. Like fuck that guy.
Speaker 1Absolutely, and you know, I hope that, I hope that she gets some. She certainly is, like you said, an icon in terms of being courageous and brave and and and speaking your truth Right, because so many times you'll see people and hear people that you know something like this horrendously happens, and understandably so.
Speaker 2They just want to move on with their life and forget it, and that's valid, that going to jail, buddy, and that's, you know, that's definitely what should have happened here and so on.
Speaker 2I love that and I think you bring up a really good point. Some survivors male, women, children you know they don't want to talk about it with other people, you know, and that's totally valid people you know, um, and that's that's totally valid, um, the people who do feel compelled to tell their stories definitely should, because it does help with, you know, acknowledging what happened, uh, for their mental health, um, and the people around them, and it helps with awareness of the of the situation and how common it is, because it's sadly very common all over the world, right here too, right, um, and I think it helps, you know, the survivor themselves really like shed that, that guilt, that shame. You know it's like this actually happened to me. I wouldn't be feeling guilty or shameful if it was like someone punched me in the face, like I wouldn't be feeling guilty or shameful if someone stole my purse. So why is it that? Like, society so far, you know, has been like putting a cloud of shame around sexual assault. You know it's very interesting when it's a crime. Well, right.
Speaker 1So many times you have people that have been molested, have been raped and they feel like, oh, I hope I didn't do anything to put this in motion or suggest that this was okay and so on. Putting the onus on them to have to think that way is so wrong. Yes, and this woman in this case, obviously she was unconscious, right, and but even if she weren't, even if, you know, she was just kind of kind of drunk and so and this happens all the time- everywhere across the nation across every nation, I guess.
Speaker 1Um, but um, yeah I I hope that at some point they get to the point where women realize and survivors in general, male survivors too I did nothing to put this into place. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2Matter what I look like, what I sound like, what I dress like.
Speaker 1None of that matters. No, where the rubber meets the road, there is the fact that this happened to someone unwillingly and there's no way, and I think we're doing better that in this country now Hopefully that we're not, you know, victim blaming and saying, well, she's in some way caused this. Yeah, no, absolutely not. But yes, good on you, giselle. Good, I wish you nothing but a happy life for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2Absolutely For that husband.
Speaker 1I wish you nothing but absolute, dire depression and ghastly things Agreed and going along in prison for you. Yeah, so anyways, but I hope this year, this coming year, I'm hopeful for 2025. I hope there are fewer problems and so on. But if there are problems, if there are cases that do come up on a national, international scale, rest assured we are gonna be following up on most of those. Have a happy and healthy and safe 2025.
Podcast Promotion and Engagement
Speaker 2Happy new year. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on.
Speaker 1And remember. All of the source material will be available in the show notes.
Speaker 2And follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the shadows and let us know if you want to hear a specific case or if you just want to give us some feedback. Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.
