What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
Giselle Pellico's Fight for Truth and Justice
In a powerful narrative of courage, we share Giselle Pellico's harrowing testimony as she confronts the decade-long betrayal perpetrated by her husband. Her unwavering strength in waiving anonymity has made her a beacon of hope for survivors of sexual assault. This episode delves into the disturbing details of her case, challenging notions of consent and justice. As we conclude with an invitation to engage with us on social media, we encourage you to share your thoughts and suggest topics for future episodes. Your voice is vital in our ongoing pursuit of justice and understanding.
Who Is Gisèle Pelicot? French Rape Case, Explained.
Gisèle Pelicot: Inside the rape trial that shocked the world | The Independent
Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com
Background music by Michael Shuller Music
Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the Shadows a father-daughter true crime podcast. My name is Jamison Keys.
Speaker 2:I'm Caroline. Hello, happy New Year. Well, happy New Year to you, caroline. How are you today? I'm great. How are you? Very good. I'm very excited and very hopeful for the new New Year to you, caroline.
Speaker 1:How are you today? I'm great. How are you Very good. I'm very excited and very hopeful for the new year, like you always are.
Speaker 2:What are your New Year's resolutions?
Speaker 1:Hmm, that's interesting. So to kind of even out things in terms of I tend to focus on one thing in my life and then focus on another thing. I'm trying to be more even keel and trying to accomplish a lot of different things this year as I get a little older and maybe you know thinking about retirement in the next few years. So just some things related to that and, you know, maybe looking for that special lady.
Speaker 2:That's funny, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And your use. Resolutions are.
Speaker 2:Mine are to be more punctual.
Speaker 1:Yes, for sure. I think that's a good one.
Speaker 2:I think I'm just a few minutes late to everything. So I'm trying to be early so I can be on time and I want to be a little more patient.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're fairly patient, aren't you?
Speaker 2:It depends on the situation. But yeah, those are my new year's resolutions fantastic.
Speaker 1:So, as we start the new year, I thought it was a good idea. We've we've had more than 50 uh, someone episodes 53 or 54 episodes, yay, um, and I thought it'd be a good time to kind of look back on last year and give some updates on some of the cases we worked on.
Speaker 2:Good idea. I have an update for you.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I have an update about Wade Wilson. Yeah, god, the murderer um, who killed two women for no reason. Yeah, Wade Wilson was sentenced in August, at the end of August, and he was sentenced to two uh death sentences.
Speaker 1:How was that, I mean? I mean, I understand that they want to point out this was so incredibly horrific that we want to make sure that this guy receives the judgment that he was adjudicated with. But how do you do two death sentences, do you? I don't want to make light of that, not sure, but that's kind of ridiculous. I mean, it's like two life sentences too.
Speaker 2:I guess.
Speaker 1:so yeah, I think it's just like if something were to fall through with the one case, you wouldn't make sure you're prosecuted.
Speaker 2:Maybe, yeah, I don't know. I thought they were prosecuted together, so that's why I was confused about the two death sentences. But I mean, I guess it's just to make a point.
Speaker 1:I guess it's just to make a point, absolutely yeah. Yeah, he's as vile a creature as I've ever seen and, just like the case with the insurance executive that we really didn't cover much because it was overexposed different places. But it's odd because Wade Wilson has a cadre of people that are fans of his and women that are sending him letters. Same thing with this fellow, luigi, right.
Speaker 2:I think it's different. I don't get that. Yeah, it's different. Those two cases are different.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure, Because obviously mental health was an issue in both these cases, yes, and both involved in death. One was innocent, so the two women were innocent, right.
Speaker 2:But and both involved in death. One was innocent, so the two women were innocent, right, and the CEO is not.
Speaker 1:Not innocent entirely, but I mean but. But. But I mean he certainly didn't deserve to be shot down in the street.
Speaker 2:I mean that's crazy, it's not? Yeah, no, he didn't deserve that, but that's. Those are two separate cases, for sure.
Speaker 1:You know what they do have in common, though. I mean, I know that both of these we'll call them men just for reckoning here, but both of them were estranged from their family. They broke off conversations with their family, like Wade Wilson had not talked to his father for years, but finally called him for help after the fact. And then you know this luigi fellow um mangione, is that yeah?
Speaker 2:mangione his family had been trying to get in touch with him for six months or so on, and mental health is is something that, um, the united states doesn't take as seriously as they should, for sure, and I think there's like some societal components of like some shame involved with getting help for mental issues, which I don't quite understand. I think that we as a country really need to focus more on especially men's mental health.
Speaker 1:No, you're right, because the vast majority of these crimes that we cover are committed by men. Yes, by far and away.
Speaker 2:With mental health issues.
Speaker 1:With mental health issues. And yeah, I think even if I honestly think that and I don't want to go down a weird rabbit hole here but I think, if you're going to focus on one thing medically for everyone in the United States, I think one of those things would be free mental health care for everyone. You know. Free at least to being able to talk to someone, talk to a counselor, because you and I are both big believers in that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think that the world would be a better place if there's just someone, because not everyone has a friend that you can confide on, doesn't have a family member that you can confide in, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the lack of support system or the rejection of a support system, either way, you know, is definitely something that you know doesn't pair well with mental health issues, Right? So, yeah, what's your update?
Speaker 1:So in another update, sean P Diddy Combs had kind of a bad Christmas. As you're well aware, he's been in jail since he was arrested months ago and apparently he had a real problem over the Thanksgiving and kind of Christmas holiday. He had tried everything, tried to put up money, tried to put up bonds and things like that, but the judge in the case and rightly so is not letting him out. It didn't let him out and I think it's straightforward why he didn't because there's a real problem with all this that maybe you know. Maybe he would try to intimidate, if he were out, some of the witnesses.
Speaker 2:Well, also, you don't get to traffic children and sexually assault children and women and probably men like you. Don't get to just sexually assault, like tons of people, and then get out and wait for your trial.
Speaker 1:No, right he was. He was offering, you know, bonds on his some of his, you know, multi-million dollar properties and offered to stay in with an ankle. You know uh monitoring system and so on he has too much money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he can get. He can get that off, are you?
Speaker 1:kidding well, and or pay someone to wear the damn thing yes, literally.
Speaker 1:I mean there, I didn't know, it's just a no so apparently, uh, he, he had a like, apparently the, the food and and I and I saw some kind of a thing where, you know, like, um, like on thanksgiving day, you know, the meals are like breakfast. He could have it at 6 am and it was like a breakfast cake, you know, and then for lunch Interesting A Cornish game, hen or barbecue tofu on the side, and then dinner was like peanut butter, jelly sandwiches and potato chips. I shouldn't laugh about that, but given this guy's lavish lifestyle that he's on, this Spartan kind of a thing. And it just flipped him out and he started hyperventilating and saying that they needed to take him to the, you know, the infirmary and that kind of thing. Eventually, I guess, he calmed himself down, but you know that's good.
Speaker 2:I don't feel bad for him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I'm still waiting for you to shoot a drop in some of those cases in terms of some of the other people that have been involved, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And are supposed to have been involved and you have people that have left the country who Well, there's a lot of people you know, well I don't want to like. Ellen DeGeneres left the country. Ellen DeGeneres left the country and claimed she's never coming back because of the election results. Oh, but some people speculate that maybe there's more to that. Ellen DeGeneres, she was a friend, she went to some of those parties, so maybe that's a yeah, but OK, I guess my thing is with these parties, like is everyone there?
Speaker 2:Did everyone there? Anyone who ever went to those parties know everything or anything that was going on. I don't think so.
Speaker 1:No because I think there are two tiers of the parties, Like they have these white parties which you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:Celebrities like Leonardo DiCaprio was real. You know chummy Ashton Kutcher went to some of those parties and you know they're really kind of. There's a lot of nervous people in Hollywood.
Speaker 2:Well, they should do a deep dive and see who was involved and who knew about things. I think that that's fair, but like I'm assuming that not everyone who went to these things knew what was going on, because it happened later in the night. I've heard.
Speaker 1:Right, but some of the white parties they would get, you know, kind of wild and so on, but not to the point. And then there was parties. After the parties. There's a clip from the Conan O'Brien show and he's talking about parties and Conan's like you know what makes a good party, and he kind of went into. Did he let a couple things slip, like you know, you need to do this and you need to have a lot of alcohol and you need to have this and locks for the doors, and he says this on and Conan O'Brien, you can just see his face go. What are we talking about there?
Speaker 2:How long ago was that?
Speaker 1:That was a decade, you know, like a decade ago.
Speaker 2:It's just so crazy to me that, like these people were out here saying this stuff and then everyone was like, oh must be harmless. Like what? Why were like? Why were the authorities not like? Hmm, that's suspicious, because money and power talk. You know, and that's why I'm happy, and I know it's not like completely cleared up and we still have like fraud and corruption and everything like that but I think that with this me too movement and with this time's up movement, things are being taken a lot more seriously.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, and, and and you know, I mean hopefully this year, if anything, um, whether you have high hopes for the new administration or or not, I mean I hope someone in the federal government looks at some of this stuff and says, listen, if you commit a crime in the United States, you know, and I don't care how big, how powerful, who you are, you know there's going to be a reckoning for you.
Speaker 2:I don't think that that is the administration to do that.
Speaker 1:Look at the president.
Speaker 2:Like he literally just is about to clear his own charges. That's not the administration to do so.
Speaker 1:Well and Joe Biden cleared his child after.
Speaker 2:And that's different.
Speaker 1:It is and it isn't. It is and it isn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I don't love Joe Biden either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what? Honestly, here's what we need a really forward-thinking, morally upright woman to come into power in the United States, someone that's going to do the right thing not listen to some of these groups and powerful people and just do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I would love to see that four years hence.
Speaker 2:I know it's giving JFK, then look what happened to him Right? Oh, do you know?
Speaker 1:what I mean. Well, listen, we can do an episode on JFK and look what happened to him, Right? Oh, do you know what I mean? Well, listen, we can do a. We can do an episode on JFK at some point in time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of theories.
Speaker 1:Well, and some of them, the more things happen, the more you're like well, there's some smoking guns.
Speaker 2:But that's what I mean, like, yeah, like I would love for it to be a woman, but, honestly, like I want to see a woman president, quickly, quickly, but the right one before I die, please, please. But it doesn't even need to be a woman, it just needs to be like a person who cares about people, has empathy and has, like, a bright vision for the future, and someone who will not be persuaded by money.
Speaker 1:Exactly right, I mean, and. It's hard to find in politics. Well, you know who my favorite president is? Right, teddy Roosevelt. Well, yeah, teddy Roosevelt. And one of the most beautiful things about Teddy Roosevelt was that he was independent, his family was wealthy and so on, but Teddy was like a really pro-American, pro-justice, pro-american people kind of thing. He set aside millions and millions of acres.
Speaker 2:Yes for the national park system.
Speaker 1:Before greed got to it. Greed got to it and developed. Can you imagine if Yellowstone Park yes?
Speaker 2:I could see it.
Speaker 1:And there's a resort there.
Speaker 2:No, it would just be like companies, it would just be another place.
Speaker 1:There would just be all condos and stuff. You'd have a condo around the big, you know, the old faithful. It would be so repulsive I agree. And he also did a lot of things like he slapped like monopoly lawsuits on. You know some of the. You know JP Morgan and some of the big powerful people of the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But that's what I mean. Some of the big, powerful people of the time, yeah, but that's what I mean. But the thing about Roosevelt is like Morgan went down to the White House and he was a very prominent person. Jp Morgan was a very prominent.
Speaker 2:Imagine if he was president.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He never wanted to be president, he just wanted to be a president maker.
Speaker 1:But when Roosevelt got in, he slapped this guy with a couple of lawsuits and restraining orders and stuff like that. The president no, jp Morgan slapped Roosevelt. Oh, with him. Oh, okay, morgan actually went down to DC from I think he was a New York-based gentleman. He said listen, what's going on? Do we have a problem here? I mean, if you had a problem, just have your people, talk to my people and we'll get it all worked out. And Roosevelt was like see, that's the problem that you don't understand. I don't have people.
Speaker 2:I am the people. Yes.
Speaker 1:And you're not going to do some of these horrendous things now. And you couldn't bribe him, Teddy, because he's not bribeable.
Speaker 2:And not probable. And also he's he's a wealthy guy too. What are you going to bribe him with? I mean, I just I did. I think the most important is that he's unbribable, right? That kind of like personal moral compass. That's what we need, right? Please, whoever you are, hurry, hurry, quickly.
Speaker 1:So let's get into the case where we're going to talk about today. So let's get into the case we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2:Trigger warnings for the following are drugging, sexual assault and rape, domestic violence and trafficking.
Speaker 1:Yikes, right, that's a, that's a big list.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is Sadly so we talk about.
Speaker 1:For the most part, we talk about a lot of cases that happen in the United States, but the United States certainly isn't the only place where shocking and troubling cases like this happen. So, in a shocking case that gripped France, a 72-year-old woman named Giselle Pellico has revealed a horrifying. You know she had a horrifying ordeal. For over a decade, betrayed by her husband of 50 years, she was subjected to sexual assault by a group of some 51 men over the years.
Speaker 2:Oh, it was more. That may just be the number that they were able to stick charges with. Yeah, absolutely I think it was upward of 70.
Speaker 1:I think you're right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's insane.
Speaker 1:So documents set before the court claim that Dominic, her husband, who's 71, admitted to police that he got satisfaction from watching men have sex with his unconscious wife. Many of the defendants in the case rape case charged against him claimed that they thought they were part of some consensual sex game.
Speaker 2:I don't believe it.
Speaker 1:But Giselle told the court that she was never complicit in the sexual acts and never pretended to be asleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's the thing. If, if it was supposed to be consensual, if these men are actually like okay, like yeah, so I'm interested in this, and they want it to be consensual, they would talk to her beforehand and if everyone's consenting, okay. But obviously that didn't happen, so it's not consensual.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know, giselle, a very brave woman. Even she's an older lady, and she was very brave because she waived her right to anonymity, I know To shift the blame back onto the people that are accused instead of her.
Speaker 2:Yes, she has become an icon for survivors and women. Women have been seen outside of her court proceedings like with signs crying saying thank you so much or, I guess, merci. But she is so inspirational. The second you said her name like a smile came to my face because I think, especially in that age group, there's a lot of shame for having been sexually assaulted.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I'm really happy that she took the power out of, out of the hands of people who wanted to, like, silence her or wanted her to, you know, go away quietly or you know. I'm just happy that she was able to, you know, stand up and say, yes, this happened to me and I I'm not ashamed of it actually.
Speaker 1:Right, and she said she was speaking for every woman who's been drugged without knowing, so no woman she would hope would have to suffer again from that. She recalled the moment in November of 2020 when police asked her to attend an interview alongside her husband. He'd been recently caught with some underskirt photography of women in a supermarket and Giselle told the court that she believed in a meeting that you know it was related to that incident. And, you know, police asked, started asking her about, you know, their sex life and so on, and she said she never was into you know, practicing swapping partners or anything like that.
Speaker 1:But after a while they separated her and the officer said I'm going to show you some things and you're going to find, you know, very unpleasant. And he opened a folder that they found on the computer of her husband. She didn't recognize the woman who was asleep on the bed and and she said well, I don't know who this is. And the officer said madam, do you, do you recognize that bedside table? And, unfortunately, you know it's it. It she did. She realized that was in her bedroom and, um, that is so.
Speaker 2:I can't even imagine a police officer showing you pictures of yourself that you have no idea that that happened to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean she said she asked him to stop showing pictures because it showed her inert in the bed and a man was was raping her, and she said her world fell apart. I'm sure Uh, giselle said that until their marriage she thought her their marriage had been a happy, happy one Generally. She and her husband, uh, you know, were. Uh, she and her husband, you know, had overcome a number of financial and health issues over the past and all that we had built together, she said, was gone. Their three children and seven grandchildren were the only ones that Giselle was kind of concerned about at this point. Of course she said I just wanted to disappear but I had to tell my children that their father was under arrest. I asked my son-in-law to stay, stay with my daughter and you know told him that her father had raped me and had she'd been raped by others. And you know she, they just went through the trial and she was very brave, spoke every day, like you said.
Speaker 1:Uh and the police have um concluded and the her husband was convicted Good Um different things. You know he, I don't. And one of the biggest problems I convicted good um different things. You know he, I, I don't. And one of the biggest problems I have. Um, like he was so I mean he was so calculating in this he would drug her right. That's insane. And he would tell these people to undress in the kitchen and to warm their hands up, to not wear tobacco or perfume. Uh, in that, would you know, wake her up.
Speaker 2:Literally like I mean, how dare these men say that it was consensual? That's obviously not consensual.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And if you don't talk about it with the person beforehand, it's not consensual Right.
Speaker 1:Doesn't matter what their partner says, who the fuck's that In an absolutely disgusting thing. Condoms were not required, no money exchanged hands and, according to the investigation, dominique watched or filmed the proceedings.
Speaker 2:Eventually, you know, created a hard drive with more than 4 000 photographs and videos yeah, I would argue that it's still trafficking, even though there wasn't money exchanged because of what he got from it, like he was like enjoying it, and he got the photos, so that I would say that that is still trafficking.
Speaker 1:Right Uh. Police said that the evidence they had around 200 rapes that were caught on film.
Speaker 2:That's insane.
Speaker 1:Between the years of 2011 and 2020, initially in their house outside of Paris and uh and then uh, but mainly in their house in Maison, which they moved to in 2013.
Speaker 2:My thing is is that you know that that isn't something that he was just like. Hmm, after 40 years, I think this is what we should do now. No, this you know this was happening, this most of the time, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and you know, the charges indicate that most of the rapes were carried out by her husband. You, just you know, and a lot of the men you know were just a few kilometers away from her house.
Speaker 2:I just, I just really can't imagine unearthing all of this and then walking by strangers and wondering had this man raped me? That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Right and she said that they showed her pictures of some of the men and she said she recognized only one.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:He was our neighbor and he came to check on our bikes and I used to see him at the bakery. He was always very polite. I had no idea that he had actually raped. That's insane. Giselle was was reminded by the judge that, in order to respect the presumption of innocence, it had been agreed to that they wouldn't use the word rape, but rather sex scene. What? But let's face it, rape is what it was.
Speaker 2:No, it's alleged rape, but I guess their laws are different.
Speaker 1:Right, right. She said I have no sympathy for any of the accused Fuck, no One of whom was HIV positive. Hiv positive, hiv positive, and he had come six times. Not once did her husband express any concern about her health.
Speaker 2:She is Courageous. I mean this is like a legend. You know what I mean. Like this woman coming forward like this and being so brave is just and speaking for women and survivors. I mean this is like a legacy that she's building. Like this is. It's the saddest thing, but I'm so proud of her.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Um, it was a, it was a trial. It was a. It was a internationally watched trial, but his name was Dominic, dominic Dominic, and Dominic was 72. He admitted to drugging his wife and you know he was convicted of drugging his wife and filming the rapes and raping her from 2011 to 2020 in their home in Paris and then again outside. He has been found guilty, unanimously guilty.
Speaker 2:Guilty, by the way I'm sure, and there's literally video evidence right and he was sentenced to 20 years in prison.
Speaker 1:Only 20 years.
Speaker 2:Well, he's an older man, so he would be 92 that's fucking disgusting I agree, I agree it should be life sentence, no matter what, no parole, death, death penalty, honestly, is what I would do for that I don't believe the french have the death penalty. I don don't know if they do or not, but I'm just saying that's what I would hand out. I was the judge. Like fuck that guy.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and you know, I hope that, I hope that she gets some. She certainly is, like you said, an icon in terms of being courageous and brave and and and speaking your truth Right, because so many times you'll see people and hear people that you know something like this horrendously happens, and understandably so.
Speaker 2:They just want to move on with their life and forget it, and that's valid, that going to jail, buddy, and that's, you know, that's definitely what should have happened here and so on.
Speaker 2:I love that and I think you bring up a really good point. Some survivors male, women, children you know they don't want to talk about it with other people, you know, and that's totally valid people you know, um, and that's that's totally valid, um, the people who do feel compelled to tell their stories definitely should, because it does help with, you know, acknowledging what happened, uh, for their mental health, um, and the people around them, and it helps with awareness of the of the situation and how common it is, because it's sadly very common all over the world, right here too, right, um, and I think it helps, you know, the survivor themselves really like shed that, that guilt, that shame. You know it's like this actually happened to me. I wouldn't be feeling guilty or shameful if it was like someone punched me in the face, like I wouldn't be feeling guilty or shameful if someone stole my purse. So why is it that? Like, society so far, you know, has been like putting a cloud of shame around sexual assault. You know it's very interesting when it's a crime. Well, right.
Speaker 1:So many times you have people that have been molested, have been raped and they feel like, oh, I hope I didn't do anything to put this in motion or suggest that this was okay and so on. Putting the onus on them to have to think that way is so wrong. Yes, and this woman in this case, obviously she was unconscious, right, and but even if she weren't, even if, you know, she was just kind of kind of drunk and so and this happens all the time- everywhere across the nation across every nation, I guess.
Speaker 1:Um, but um, yeah I I hope that at some point they get to the point where women realize and survivors in general, male survivors too I did nothing to put this into place. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:Matter what I look like, what I sound like, what I dress like.
Speaker 1:None of that matters. No, where the rubber meets the road, there is the fact that this happened to someone unwillingly and there's no way, and I think we're doing better that in this country now Hopefully that we're not, you know, victim blaming and saying, well, she's in some way caused this. Yeah, no, absolutely not. But yes, good on you, giselle. Good, I wish you nothing but a happy life for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely For that husband.
Speaker 1:I wish you nothing but absolute, dire depression and ghastly things Agreed and going along in prison for you. Yeah, so anyways, but I hope this year, this coming year, I'm hopeful for 2025. I hope there are fewer problems and so on. But if there are problems, if there are cases that do come up on a national, international scale, rest assured we are gonna be following up on most of those. Have a happy and healthy and safe 2025.
Speaker 2:Happy new year. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on.
Speaker 1:And remember. All of the source material will be available in the show notes.
Speaker 2:And follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the shadows and let us know if you want to hear a specific case or if you just want to give us some feedback. Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.
