Breaking Down the Menendez Murders: A Family’s Shadow

Delving deep into the complexities of family dynamics, this episode presents a gripping exploration of the Menendez brothers and the shocking events surrounding the tragic murder of their parents. What seems like a straightforward tale of crime becomes a multifaceted narrative woven through layers of abuse, privilege, and psychological turmoil. We dissect how the expectations placed upon the brothers led to terrifying outcomes, with discussions that challenge our perceptions of justice and morality. 

Join us as we unravel these intricate narratives, provoking thought about the gray areas in human behavior and the tragedy of loss, making us reconsider how we perceive culpability and compassion. Let’s engage in meaningful discussions, as we strive to understand the complexities surrounding these heartbreaking stories. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review your favorite podcast platform and share your thoughts with us!

Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com



Background music by Michael Shuller Music 

Transcript

Introduction and Initial Thoughts

Speaker 1 0:10

Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the Shadows a father-daughter true crime podcast. My name is Jamison Keys.

Speaker 2 0:17

I'm Caroline, Hello Hi. Caroline how are you, I'm well.

Speaker 1 0:21

How about yourself? Good, it's nice and cold here.

Speaker 2 0:24

Ugh, I do not like the cold, but yes, it is very chilly.

Speaker 1 0:29

I had a friend that was this week down in Dallas and she said that it was like 18 degrees there.

Speaker 2 0:36

Oh wow, In Dallas. That's crazy.

Speaker 1 0:38

It was colder in Dallas than it was here in the Northeast. That's strange. Pretty much Wow is here in the Northeast, that's strange.

Speaker 2 0:46

Pretty much Wow, but there's no global warming. We're joking, by the way. Global warming is a thing, exactly Anyways. So I have a very odd and sad story to tell you as a little intro.

Speaker 1 0:57

I like odd. I'm not a fan of sad, but go ahead.

Speaker 2 1:00

It's odd and sad, okay, so I want to tell you a quick little story about Hannah Kobayashi. So this was recent, in November of 2024. It was like all over the news she had disappeared after traveling and she was sending weird texts to her family about her identity being stolen. And then she just disappeared. So everyone was like wait, this is crazy, like what happened to her. So her parents started looking for her, started posting flyers, whatever. Her dad killed himself and then they found out that she was just across the border in mexico of her own free will oh my god and her dad killed himself.

Speaker 2 1:41

Oh, oh no it was yeah, that's tragic. And so then she came back to the United States.

Speaker 1 1:47

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 1:48

It's so sad. That is very sad, I know, and there was some weird scams that were uncovered. It was just, it was very strange, like the family kind of just like blew up, just weird things were happening. But I just I couldn't get over the fact that her, her father, killed himself while she was away. It's so sad, that is, that's terribly sad. It sounds like to me that maybe she was on drugs, because that's not really normal behavior, um, just dropping everything, sure.

Speaker 1 2:17

Or or she could be bipolar, or something like that as well. Right, very true.

Speaker 2 2:20

Yeah, something. It was either, like you know, a mental break or drugs. I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 2:27

But in the end the important thing is it had tragic results.

Speaker 2 2:30

So sad, I couldn't believe it.

Speaker 1 2:33

I hope that family eventually heals and gets over that. So you know, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but on Netflix there's a series called Monster. Okay, and maybe that might be even a series of shows, I'm not sure, but this year it delves into a case that is old. It deals with Eric and Lyle Menendez.

Speaker 2 2:55

Oh yes.

Speaker 1 2:56

So there's a lot of buzz around it right now, and even so, much so. This show is very popular, as a lot of Netflix specials are. It even has people in California in the judicial system talking about re-looking at that case, and so we're going to get into that a little bit today. Okay, so it's tragic. The case surrounds Lyle and Eric Menendez, two brothers who brutally murdered their parents Jeez parents. So the story is, you know, filled with betrayals and complex, you know family dynamics and shocking twists that really lend itself to, uh, to a television series.

Speaker 1 3:30

Um, because it's so unpredictable that's crazy you know twists and turns, but it is part of real life. So, um, to order outward appearances, the men of his family will live in the American dream. Jose Mendez was born in Havana, cuba, on May 6, 1944. And at 16, after the Cuban Revolution forced many to flee their homeland, jose moved to the United States to start a new life, as so many people do, and he eventually settled in New Jersey. He went to college and while at college he met a lady named Mary Louise, kitty, nickname Anderson, and you know, together they built a family, lyle, joseph Lyle was born in 1968 and Eric Galen was born in 1970.

Speaker 1 4:16

The Menendez family seemed to have it all. Jose was, you know, got a great education, was working his way up through the corporate ladder and in 1983, was working his way up through the corporate ladder. And in 1983, jose became the CEO of Live Entertainment, which was a division of RCA Records, and in that position he moved his family to Calabasas, california. But this idyllic life that seemed like the great American dream. Someone comes to the United States, does well, gets educated and really starts a wonderful life.

Speaker 1 4:46

But that's not the way it turned out so both boys, as they, you know, grew older, were gifted tennis players. But in school they both struggled, and not necessarily because they didn't understand, but they didn't apply themselves and that sort of thing. And you know, this frustrated Jose, who was kind of a bootstrap, you know, kind of a guy who worked his way up. He, you know, really became, you know, through some of the discussions he had with them, which may or may not, depending on who you listen to anecdotally, may become physical.

Speaker 1 5:15

In 1988, lyon, eric began to engage in, you know, a string of burglars around the neighborhood stealing over the you know the teenagers at this point so, um and the you know, the thefts amounted to over a hundred thousand dollars in cash and jewelry rich yeah, because they were rich.

Speaker 2 5:34

What are they doing stealing other people's things?

Speaker 1 5:36

well, just for the thrill maybe the thrill, maybe you know they just wanted some extra spending money. Maybe the parents had a little that's crazy tighter hold on the purse oh, I understand. But you know so. And Jose trying to shield his family from, you know, public fallout and so on, he moved the family to Beverly Hills. But things only escalated from there. Things got so bad with their efforts and their attitude and the way they were acting that, in kind of a last ditch effort to get the boys' attention, Jose and Kitty threatened to cut the boys out of their will if they didn't get their stuff together. And their reaction wasn't what anyone would have hoped for. On the night of August 20, 1989, the Benitez family, their whole world, would be shattered forever. Because Jose and Kitty were relaxing at their Beverly Hills mansion watching a movie. It was a peaceful evening, but little did they know that their sons, Lyle and Eric, had prepared and were preparing to take a violent step that would end their lives.

Speaker 2 6:35

Jeez.

Speaker 1 6:36

A couple days earlier, the young men went out.

Speaker 2 6:40

Just for clarification. They did this because they wanted to stay in the will, because they were scared they were going to get cut out of the will.

Speaker 1 6:48

There's a lot of factors, but yeah, ostensibly that's it. So, armed with two shotguns that they purchased, the brothers entered the home and they shot Jose six times, wow, including a fatal shot to the back of his head. Oh my gosh. And Kitty, their mother, who was trying to crawl away, was shot 10 times. Yikes. Her last moments were filled with unimaginable pain and after the killings, the two brothers briefly stayed in the house waiting for the police to come. They thought people would have heard the shots and so on. But when no one came, what? People thought that there were fireworks.

Speaker 2 7:26

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 7:27

And they thought there were fireworks because the shots were happening in such rapid succession that it sounded like fireworks and not, you know, like shotgun blasts Wow. So when no one came, they disposed of their bloody clothes and buried the shotguns oh my goodness. And they went to a movie theater what? And tried to act like nothing happened. So later that night, when they got back to the house, lyle called 911, claiming that they had found their parents' bodies. Oh my goodness, but something you know just didn't seem right to folks.

Speaker 2 7:54

Yeah, because that's weird.

Speaker 1 7:56

You know because he was an executive, because he worked in a movie theater, and sometimes there have been in years past there have been, I'm sorry, in the music industry and there had been talks throughout history and so on about maybe there were some mafia tie-ins to some different.

Speaker 2 8:11

That's interesting.

Speaker 1 8:12

But the detectives kind of really soon suspected the brothers were trying to hide something that's wild. So it didn't take long for the investigators to shift to Lyle and Eric, because right after this had happened and after they buried their parents, they went on a lavish spending spree Buying Porsches and Rolex watches, and one of them even bought a restaurant as a business, and that raised a lot of red flags. But it was the brothers' own confessions that would actually seal their fate.

Speaker 2 8:42

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1 8:43

Through a series of recorded sessions with a psychologist. Oh, my goodness, through a series of recorded sessions with a psychologist, because, in trying to keep the kids out of jail when they had originally been breaking in and doing stuff, they were told to talk to a psychologist.

Speaker 2 8:58

It's actually very yeah, it is Very good.

Speaker 1 9:00

It is so they did. They began talking to a psychologist by the name of Jerome Ozeal, who unknowingly became the key to cracking the case. Wow, ozeal's mistress was Judelon Smith. Mistress, mistress, yes, he was married and he had a girlfriend also. What the hell.

Speaker 2 9:17

This is crazy.

Speaker 1 9:18

It is. It's like something you would see out of a Hollywood script, but it was real life.

Speaker 2 9:23

It's like everyone is so messed up.

Speaker 1 9:25

Yeah, so Smith who was aware of the tapes and so on, the mistress, the mistress, geez, I don't know if she listened to him with him or maybe she had something to do with his practice, but whatever, she was aware of the tapes and the brothers and missions. At first I think it was Eric that went and really couldn't deal, I think, with the guilt of what they had done after a couple of years. Deal, I think, with the guilt of what they had done after a couple of years because it was a couple of years later, is he younger or older?

Speaker 1 9:48

He's Eric is younger.

Speaker 2 9:50

Okay, yeah, so he was like kind of led by his brother and then he felt bad probably.

The Disappearance of Hannah Kobayashi

Speaker 1 9:54

Right, I think I have that right. It could have been a lie, but I think it was Eric. But anyways, he confessed. So in talking with his doctor, he admitted to this psychologist that they had murdered their parents. That's crazy, Because the parents were talking about cutting them out of the will.

Speaker 2 10:17

So you know they argued that the murder was an act of self-defense Ten times and one shot to the back of the head.

Speaker 1 10:21

Yeah, that shows real intent, doesn't it? That is.

Speaker 2 10:23

One shot to the back of the head.

Speaker 1 10:27

Execution style is crazy for sure. So, um, they were finally arrested and, uh, they, they were in one trial, but they had two different juries right listening to these different things, so they would have one jury in him because the two brothers wanted to separate. In terms of the way that was all prosecuted in the first trial, it it ended in a hung jury. Uh, because it broke down very much along, um, male female lines, interesting, so it ended in a hung jury and which?

Speaker 2 10:56

do you know which side felt which way?

Speaker 1 10:59

the, the, the. The females tended to be more lenient and not really of murder a murder, yeah, and the males are kind of like you know, no, not so much that's crazy.

Speaker 2 11:10

That's very interesting to me because I feel like if I was on a jury, that's wild I probably should never be on a jury. But, um, I feel like I would be really hard on, but I. Maybe it's because I'm interested in true crime, maybe, but I I would be really hard on. But maybe it's because I'm interested in true crime, maybe, but I would be really hard on a murder, especially not in self-defense.

Speaker 1 11:36

Right. So during the second trial they changed some things around, in that they brought in this element that the brothers said that they had been sexually assaulted by their father. So that was never mentioned in the tapes that were released to the police by this psychologist's mistress.

Speaker 2 11:57

There was no mention of that the mistress released the tapes.

Speaker 1 11:59

Yes.

Speaker 2 12:00

He didn't the psychologist Right.

Speaker 1 12:02

What Right? So I don't know if they were released to the police or she sold them. I'm not exactly sure. That's crazy Right. So I don't know if they were released to the police, or she sold them.

Speaker 1 12:07

I'm not exactly sure that's crazy, but the reason that was feasible and possible was the one brother had confessed that they had done it and why they had done it. The other brother comes and tells the psychologist, supposedly allegedly, that if you tell anyone about this we're going to kill you. Oh, my gosh of that, because you have to be able to keep yourself safe. Right, yeah, so you know it really, even to this day, you know, the story of the Melinda's brothers is filled with, you know, questions. Um, were they truly victims? Was there actually sexual abuse? Did they actually just kill their parents for the for money?

Speaker 2 13:00

I always try to believe when people say that they're um, that they've been the victim of sexual assault, but it does feel very strange, right?

Speaker 1 13:11

So I was looking at some articles after the show aired, because now everyone really wants to talk about this case again. They've been in jail for like 30 years.

Speaker 2 13:19

Yeah, I mean, and rightly so. Yeah, it seems like they needed to go.

Speaker 1 13:24

So in the first episode of Monsters it kind of settled around the emotion connection between eric and therapist jerome ozeal and on. On that halloween in 1989 he confessed to ozeal that he and he and lyle had um had killed on halloween, on halloween that he and lyle had killed um jose and kitty.

Speaker 2 13:45

That's crazy In.

Speaker 1 13:46

August of 1989. Like I said, ozeal's then mistress tips off the police about the recording of Ozeal's sessions with the brothers leading to their arrest. Jeez, and you're curious because that's what's portrayed in the show. But according to court records, eric and Ozeal did in fact meet on Halloween. The therapist said this was when eric revealed the details about planning and executing the crime. Wow, and lyle and eric were arrested in march of 1990 and held in custody for first degree murder. So the audio recordings of ozeal's and the brothers included lyle's admission of guilt, uh, and were ruled acceptable in evidence because Lyle and Eric had threatened the psychologist, thus eliminating the claim for privacy. And you know, patient.

Speaker 2 14:34

Well, I think also, if you say that you murdered someone, I don't think that HIPAA applies.

Speaker 1 14:42

Well, no, that's not true, Really yeah, because if you said you, I mean they can. Well, no, that's not true, really yeah, because if you said you, they can. So a couple of ways, I mean like a psychologist can claim client, patient privilege.

Speaker 2 14:58

The attorney, if he knows the truth, can claim that same. No, but I'm saying like, oh wait. But I'm saying like if the psychologist wanted to tell the police, he can't.

Speaker 1 15:05

He really can't. Wow, that's crazy Right and it also applies not only to the attorneys that are there to defend them.

Speaker 2 15:15

It also applies to— the attorney makes sense, though.

Speaker 1 15:17

It also applies to priests. If someone in a confession confesses that they murdered someone, the priest is—. Confesses that they murdered someone, the priest is. Although it's not a legal thing ordinarily, because it was done in confession, they will not tell the police about that unless they feel someone else's life could possibly potentially be in danger. It's kind of a gray area.

Speaker 2 15:40

That is crazy. I didn't know that therapists weren't allowed to tell the police if one of their clients Right, they can be sued for breaching that.

Speaker 1 15:51

Wow, so yeah, but in that case, like I said, if they're threatened, that kind of everything is out the window.

Speaker 2 15:56

That's good though.

Speaker 1 15:57

But, and then in the second trial, like I said, there were kind of allegations that there was sexual abuse and had been going on for a very long time. Sexual abuse and had been going on for a very long time, and at first on face value, because when it came in and what came in, even the fact that they didn't mention that at all, to this psychologist right Some people think, was that real. Now, finding out recently though, okay, during this, this whole reexamination of things, one of the brothers had sent a letter apparently to a cousin where he outlines the physical abuse and sexual abuse oh, he outlines the sexual abuse as well and this is a few months before the murder.

Speaker 1 16:37

So you have to wonder is that true, right? Maybe I'm sure that the letter went out, but did the letter go out with the intention of giving them an alibi? And I'm like thinking, ok, maybe that's the case, because it wasn't mentioned, the family didn't mention it at all, and what if it was a breaking point?

Speaker 2 16:57

It's tough, that's a tough situation.

Speaker 1 17:00

You know, even the family members that knew that you know, knew the family and so on. There were no claims of physical abuse or um of um, you know, sexual abuse or anything like that's the thing.

Speaker 2 17:09

Like would the fam, would the extended family know about that?

Speaker 1 17:12

well, that's so tough. They may or they may not but, jose was also kind of the patriarch of the family and he was always, if anyone in the family had any financial problems or anything like that, jose would come in and take care of it. So yeah, did that ameliorate them somehow to kind of insulate them from? We don't want to, you know right, definitely you know, alienate him definitely yeah so that could now something else I found out.

Speaker 1 17:37

So there was a puerto rican boy band, um, by the name of menudo, and there was a member of menudo who had claimed that Jose had raped him.

Speaker 2 17:48

Oh, I believe it, I believe it.

Speaker 1 17:51

But once again you have to wonder. He was in contact with the brothers. Did they offer him a certain sum of money to say that? So it's? Really I mean it's really murky.

Speaker 2 18:04

It's like it is murky, I'll give it that. But like wait, he was in contact with the brothers after you wonder, you wonder if that's the case. Because he was. So it's not confirmed that he was in contact with the brothers.

Speaker 1 18:15

It's not confirmed that I'm aware of.

Speaker 2 18:17

Then I totally believe it. I mean, two separate sources say that this one person is a predator. I believe it.

Speaker 1 18:28

Plus, and this is years before me too right exactly, but there's never been any question about jose being a homosexual, right? So it was like what does that?

Speaker 2 18:34

have to do with it.

Speaker 1 18:35

Well, he, if he, if he raped another, uh, another young man, uh-huh, there's, there's, no but rape is not about attraction, rape is about power that's a good point you know, and you'll see this, like the sexual predators will rape.

Speaker 2 18:49

It doesn't really matter the gender.

Speaker 1 18:51

often so you also wonder too. It's like OK, so let's, let's say the those allegations are are true. Ok, that that Jose had, because he certainly had physically abused them, because other people in school students and things like that had seen bruises on the brothers occasionally, I believe it. Could he been physically abusive without being sexually abusive? Yes, sure.

Speaker 2 19:15

But is that any better? It's not.

Speaker 1 19:21

Like I guess a little, but really basically said a few days, maybe a day before the murders and so on, or a day or two before, the parents took the two brothers on a fishing trip. They had a boat and they were going out shark fishing right Rich people. The brothers claimed that they were terrified that the mother and father were going to kill them and throw them overboard at sea. So it's got so many little facets and so many little oddities.

Speaker 2 19:53

I kind of am believing, though, that the brothers you know were obviously physically abused at least, and that does a lot of damage to the psyche, so they may have felt that I don't know. I mean, I don't think that murder was the answer, but that's so tough, that's a crazy case.

Overview of the Menendez Case

Speaker 1 20:17

So, but there are other things like there, eric and his friend Craig Cigarelli, who In the series he wears a wire in an attempt to get one of the younger men and his brothers to confess to it. He and Eric wrote a screenplay called Friends, and in that it talks about a teenager who kills his parents. So I mean, there's so many weird.

Speaker 2 20:44

But he could have been writing that trying to process the abuse right. So it's like is this justified? I think that's the question. Is it justified? That's the whole thing about this case. Was the murder justified because of previous abuse?

Speaker 1 21:03

right, but but did did any of that because at this point one is 21 and one is 18. One is in college at princeton, one is 21 and one is 18. One is in college at Princeton, one is in high school.

Speaker 2 21:12

Still very young, especially if you've been abused and you're depending on them for money.

Speaker 1 21:17

Right, right, but at that point in time I mean they are pretty much adults. I mean, couldn't they just have walked away from that situation? Did they have to murder them, and murder them in a premeditated fashion? It wasn't like they felt, like they were defending themselves, that night Right right right right. They bought shotguns. That's crazy. They came in when the parents were watching a movie, shot the father in the back of the head and shot the mother 10 times. I mean there's something there. I mean it's very violent and very premeditated also.

Speaker 2 21:43

I feel like it all comes back to the money, in my opinion. I feel that if this family were, um, like middle class or lower middle class, would the brothers have just walked away? Maybe? I think they probably would have, and I think that's why they wanted to kill them instead of just excommunicating them from their lives. I think it's because they wanted to continue living a lavish lifestyle yes, certainly, and certainly like the one.

Speaker 1 22:13

But, like I said, they one bought a like a restaurant, one bought a porsche, they both bought rolex watches, um they went crazy and yeah, one, one of the brothers hired a professional tennis coach um to try to up his game. So because they were, they were ranked in, you know, wow, and like not, not in professional, not professional but like, like teens yeah.

Speaker 1 22:33

So like teens they were like pretty good, they're pretty good players, wow. And to to kind of highlight, uh, the physical component of it, one of the brothers, I think was eric, was in a tennis tournament and his father was sitting in the stands and he wasn't doing well. Eric wasn't doing well, so the father comes out of the stands Onto the court, onto the court with, you know, people sitting there in the stands watching and like physically is up in his face and you know pushing him and stuff like that, and that's not what we worked on. So he sounds like he was a violent dude.

Speaker 2 23:02

Honestly, though, like that's the thing it's like. If he did that in front of people watching, imagine what he was doing like behind closed doors in their home, and I think I think the the whole problem with this thing is that they did it for money instead of just walking away right, and you know the television series.

Speaker 1 23:21

I think it's in the second season now or maybe it just started. The second season just started. Um, there's some things that the the brothers are saying that's not accurate. That's not true.

Speaker 2 23:30

For example, Well, yeah, I mean, I think that there's always dramatization right.

Speaker 1 23:33

But, for example, like it was just little things, weird things Like, for example, as they're going to the funeral of their parents, someone is in the limousine riding to the, you know to the grave site with the two boys and I think in the series, uh, someone says to to one of the brothers well, you're gonna have big shoes to fill now that your father's not around. And I think in the series he says I'm already filling his shoes because I'm wearing his shoes, which is weird and cold-blooded. But if you look at the tape of the gravesite, he wasn't wearing shoes. He was wearing green, his own green cowboy boots or something like that.

Speaker 1 24:11

To the so it's, I mean there's, there's an accuracy, yeah, but uh, the director um, dominic murphy, said he wrote you know there were several articles writing about different things, like the incest and that sort of view, but he's trying to present it with a variety of different opinions and most everything is supported by, you know, some sort of it isn't wildly conjecture, someone has stated it in the court record and that sort of thing. So the final analysis, the final piece of it is they're looking at it now.

Speaker 2 24:39

There was they're looking at it again.

Speaker 1 24:41

They're looking at it again.

Speaker 2 24:42

That's crazy.

Speaker 1 24:43

Now there was a. There was a prosecuting attorney out in California, state attorney that was fairly progressive and he was looking at it again to try to reassign it. No one, even the brothers, admit that they didn't. You know, yeah, they were trying to get someone killed them, but they've admitted that they did kill them. So they're not even, you know, trying to say that isn't true, Right, but they're looking at it in California and they've had a change of administration. It was a very, very liberal state attorney at that point. He was looking at it like, okay, if all these allegations are true, then it's more like manslaughter, right?

Speaker 2 25:26

How is it manslaughter?

Speaker 1 25:27

Because they were protecting themselves. It was justified in some form or fashion. He wanted to reassign.

Speaker 2 25:33

I thought manslaughter was accident.

Speaker 1 25:35

Right and I think manslaughter can also like defending yourself against.

Speaker 2 25:40

Oh, I didn't know that was manslaughter.

Speaker 1 25:41

I think it can be classified that way too, but he wants to classify it in such a way that he did that the length of time for like a manslaughter case would be 15 to 20 years. They've already served 30 years.

Speaker 2 25:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1 25:54

Right. So he was trying to get it reassigned and saying you time served, you're free.

Speaker 2 26:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1 26:01

Other people are saying you murdered your parents. That is something that can't be forgiven.

Speaker 2 26:06

Right.

Speaker 1 26:07

And you should be in prison, as you were intended to be, for the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 26:11

I just feel like, because it's about the money. I think that is completely immoral, right? You know what I mean. It's not like if they weren't thinking about the money and it was we're just angry about, like their parents abusing them, okay, but the money piece, really, it really rubs me the wrong way, right Cause it's just like would you have done this if they were poor? I don't think so.

Speaker 1 26:39

So, so and also, it's like okay if, if one brother was being attacked by the father and the other brother comes in and kills him to defend the brother? Okay, I get that, yeah, right, but but the mother him to defend the brother? Okay.

Speaker 2 26:49

I get that.

Speaker 1 26:49

Yeah, right, but but the mother, you shoot the mother 10 times.

Speaker 2 26:53

Yeah, that is weird too. I guess she's just like I wonder if she was abusing them too or if she was just like a bystander.

Speaker 1 27:00

That's really really really rare.

Speaker 2 27:02

What A mom abusing Both parents oh both parents.

Speaker 1 27:05

Yeah, it's fairly rare. That's a, you know like one and she was complicit because she didn't say anything. Okay, I get that. I get that. That happens probably a lot. Yeah, but but there's some conjecture that she was actually abusing him too. I don't know.

Speaker 2 27:18

Well, my thing is is I understand why they would be upset with their mom for not defending them?

Speaker 1 27:24

Sure, but you shoot her 10 times.

Speaker 2 27:30

No, I don't think that's justified.

Speaker 1 27:32

But yeah, I just so. I'm much more conservative, along with the winds of change and politics that has spread over the country. Now that particular DA is no longer in power, so there's another DA that's a little more conservative and much less likely to let people out of jail. So we shall see it's being considered. I think they're going to hear arguments in terms of reclassifying it in the next couple of months. So we certainly keep our eyes on that and the series is very, very popular.

Speaker 2 28:03

Yeah, I haven't watched it, but I've heard about it a lot.

Speaker 1 28:06

Yeah, so we shall see so, but that's the latest update and that's where we are right now. Some of them also have been married since they were in prison. What wait, they got married in prison yeah, so not not to another inmate, but I mean someone, a woman from the outside, kind of like this I didn't think it was to another like this luigi manzioni thing where he has a lot of oh, I see people interested, yeah, um so very interesting.

Speaker 1 28:28

What's very interesting? It's odd, isn't it? But at the same time. So both of them have been married. One has been married for quite some time and still remains married after 20-some odd years, wow. And then the other brother has been married more than once, two different women. So, anyways, but yeah, that's the latest we have on the case. We'll certainly keep our eyes open and if there's any substantial updates, we will bring it on and talk to you more about it. But really, like I said, reads more like a movie script, but is actually real life.

Speaker 2 28:59

Mm-hmm. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on.

Speaker 1 29:04

And remember. All of the source material will be available in the show notes.

Speaker 2 29:08

And follow us on Instagram at whatweloseintheshadows, and let us know if you want to hear a specific case.

Speaker 1 29:14

Or if you just want to give us some feedback.

Speaker 2 29:16

Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.