What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
Alpine Divorce in Paradise
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A breakup in a remote place can be cruel. On a mountain trail, it can become something much worse. We talk about the chilling phenomenon known as “alpine divorce” and why some people choose a hike, a forest, or a cliffside viewpoint to end a relationship where escape, witnesses, and cell service are limited. It’s not just awkward, it can be dangerous, and the psychology behind it often points to avoidance, poor communication, and a lack of empathy.
Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com
Background music by Michael Shuller Music
Good morning and welcome to What We Lose in the Shadows.
SPEAKER_01A father-daughter true crime podcast.
SPEAKER_00My name is Jamison Keys.
SPEAKER_01I'm Caroline. Hello.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Care.
SPEAKER_01How you doing? Good. How are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm very well.
SPEAKER_01Good. Um, I wanted to ask you about your newest venture.
SPEAKER_00My newest venture.
SPEAKER_01In coffee.
SPEAKER_00In coffee, yes. So recently I was at a book fair, and um and uh I thought, you know, a lot of the other authors had different things. They had personalized swag and stuff like that. And you know me. I don't want to be too cliche. So I found a new partnership uh with a coffee company, uh, they're a bean roaster, and uh they're in Illinois. And one of the nice things about it, uh the coffee is uh delicious, it's ethically sourced, uh, you know, and they use uh really uh specialty grade beans, so it's really, really good stuff. And uh it's it's you know roasted and then shipped out, you know, within 24 hours, so it is sitting in a warehouse for a while. So yeah, I'm super excited about it.
SPEAKER_01And it is delicious, especially the cinnamon bun one.
SPEAKER_00The cinnamon, yeah, the cinnamon coffee is excellent, but there's like 25 other different uh roasts in addition to tea and stuff like that. And one of the things that I was curious about was it also has the uh has the mushroom coffee, which I didn't know a whole lot about, but there's I still don't.
SPEAKER_01I should try it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but people are raving about that now. So I I have the the mushroom coffee available as well. The name of the company is is Hidden Key Coffee. I didn't get too cute there. I was gonna play around with keys and Jameson Keys and and so on. So uh I played a little bit, did a couple cute things with the logo, uh, but the name of the company is Hidden Key Coffee. It's available on my shot uh Spotify um site at this point, but it's gonna be available through the website as well. And uh we'll let you know when that is official. I'll give you the official website and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01How exciting!
SPEAKER_00It is exciting.
SPEAKER_01Perfect. We can have uh tea or coffee on you now. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01While we record this.
SPEAKER_00You have key tea or coffee for life.
Alex Murdaugh Conviction Overturned
SPEAKER_01I love it. That's that's amazing. Um, I did want to do an update on the Alex Murdaw um case, which if you remember, is he was uh recently um convicted in 2023 for the murder of his wife and son, young son. Right. Um he was a an attorney who was uh scamming some of his clients um and taking their money. So um the reason that his case was overturned um was or his conviction was overturned was it was appealed up to the state Supreme Court of South Carolina, and they ordered a new trial due to jury tampering.
SPEAKER_00Interesting.
SPEAKER_01By the clerk.
SPEAKER_00By the clerk of court.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's very strange.
SPEAKER_00It is strange.
SPEAKER_01I know, it's so weird. Um, however, he isn't being released, so that's good. No one needs to worry about that at least. Right. Um, but he the reason he isn't being put released is because he pleaded guilty to his financial crimes against his clients and still has decades left on those sentences alone. So once they um retry him for the murder charges, which I'm sure they'll be much more careful now, um I'm sure he'll be in there for life.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, and as well he should because the even the financial things he was convicted on, he would uh sue someone on behalf of a person within the community there and win uh, you know, a settlement and just never pay the people for a settlement. He would just keep them and they would call him back and say, Where's that at? And he goes, Oh, you know, there's this and that. And so yeah, he's uh and the most heinous thing, anyone that harms their family is uh deserves a special, special, dark, dingy part of the jail as far as I'm concerned.
SPEAKER_01Yes, family annihilator block. Absolutely crazy, crazy, crazy that it's not uncommon and kind of similar to what we're talking about today. Yes. Um in the sense of familial murder. So I'll go into the uh trigger warnings here, which are attempted murder and domestic violence.
SPEAKER_00Right. Um so this is something you brought up to me. I wasn't aware of it. And um uh so it's kind of interesting. Uh you know, breakups, you know, breakups. We've all been there, right? I mean and they tend to have a few common scenarios, you know, the dreaded living room talk of, hey, we need to talk. A terrible one. Uh this, you know, the strained telephone conversation or the particularly unkind text form. Oof. Uh, but apparently uh some men have taken you know to new heights, literally uh ending their relationships uh mid-hike or on top of mountains, which has led to, you know, it sounds like a plot twist from one of my books. Uh yet uh this is happening in real life and often enough to earn the name of alpine divorce. Yeah, crazy. And I I don't know what bothers me more about that, that uh some men do this with such rapidity or they do it so often that it actually has a name. So both both kind of bug me. So uh as I looked everything up, you know, there's an article I read that discussed uh the rise of the alpine divorce, which you know refers to the breakup happening during a hike or on a in a remote setting. And initially, uh the the phrase uh gained attention after a manslaughter case involving a hiker accused of abandoning his girlfriend on a mountaintop. Uh, but many women have since shared that uh there are you know less extreme experiences of being left behind, uh, you know, or broken up mid-hike and you know, the man leaving them uh in the middle of a forest or something. So awful. And I didn't know about it, so thanks for thanks for letting me know about that. So psychologists explained that while these situations may seem shocking, uh, they're not uncommon. Some people use the outdoor environment to, you know, avoid emotional and you know, discomfort uh in the breakup. And you know, hiking allows them to avoid eye contact or you know, keep moving, physically distance themselves, you know, from the pain that they're causing the other person. And uh experts say that often they exhibit the behavior because of existing issues of you know, poor communication skills or you know, emotional avoidance or impulse impulsivity or the lack of empathy. And uh those things are probably all the case in uh this scenario. So, you know, sometimes a man who you know struggles with communication and impulse control, you know, or you know, withdraws when you're face to face with a difficult conversation in the same way, you know, and things abroad. So in my opinion, you know, it's it's very straightforward. In my opinion, it's like, hey, look, if you're having a problem, suck it up, be a good man. If you feel it isn't working for whatever reason, just come on. Let's just go out and have that unpleasant conversation, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's it's more like men wanting to be the victim, like, oh my gosh, can you believe it? Like I was on a hike and I was just, I couldn't believe it. I just I couldn't imagine she accidentally fell off the cliff. And it's just like, what? That and I think like a lot of it, especially people who are married, they do it for the money as well. Right. Uh they're like, you know, if if I am going to get divorced, like this kind of is perfect. Like they can just disappear and I'll get money, and people will feel bad for me.
Birthday Hike Turns Into Assault
SPEAKER_00And we've done so many cases that have been kind of like that. I mean, I you even think about to one of our really early cases about uh the sea orphan, about the little girl that was left on the ship, and the the ship's captain um killed everyone on board, but it all started with him uh having an insurance kind of a scheme and killing his wife and uh tossing her overboard, then but then he was discovered and led to him killing the rest of the family except for that little girl. Crazy. So it's not something brand new, but uh it's uh nonetheless, it's ridiculous and terrible. So in terms of actually what actually happened uh on March 24th of 2025, so not that long ago, uh Ariel Koenig, who was uh a nuclear engineer, and her husband, 46 47-year-old anesthesiologist, Dr. Uh Gerard Koenig.
SPEAKER_01Um he probably got that doctor title stripped away.
SPEAKER_00I'm thinking yes.
SPEAKER_01So it's just Mr. Koenig.
Bystanders Step In And Help
SPEAKER_00Right, it's inmate Koenig. Um so uh they were hiking on Oahu's um uh Polly Puka uh trail to celebrate their her 36th birthday. They took a uh weekend trip from their home in Maui. And after a few rough months uh in the relationship, in the wake of uh what she acknowledged was an emotional uh affair she was having with the coworker. So uh the Koenigs uh had gone to couples counseling and uh worked to regain each other's trust, and she said, and he she received like a lovely, love-filled birthday card on the morning of March 24th, 2025. Uh, she believed that things were back on the upswing. She said, uh, I teared up when I read it. She said, uh I felt hopeful that this was a turning point for us and our marriage, and that it was going to be a pleasant trip uh and be the next chapter in our relationship. However, on that particular hike on her birthday celebration, Ariel became uncomfortable and her discomfort was uh, you know, with the hike, and it quickly turned into really terror when she says that her husband shoved her towards a cliff and uh bashed her over the head with a rock. She said it was really shocking, and my initial reaction was, You must be kidding me. Uh Ariel during the struggle, he kept pushing her, and smartly, really, really smartly, she dropped to the ground and made it difficult for him to uh push her over the cliff. And it was then that he produced uh a syringe in a bottle. So during the initial um trial, Dr. Konig's mentor, uh, Dr. Jonathan Waters said that uh it was asked, would it be hard for you know someone like him to kill her? And he said, Would it be hard for an anesthesiologist to commit murder? Uh I would say no, the doctor said. Um, because um, this was on, I believe, going to Good Morning America. They said, you know, the drugs that uh we typically carry are intended to take people to the edge of death, anyways. And as uh Waters was testifying, uh the jurors in Maui were shown disturbing police body camera footage uh of the capture after the aftermath and the alleged attack in the several, like I think they could be the third or fourth day of the trial. So the video shows uh Ariel Conan, you know, bloodied and stumbling out of a remote hiking trail in Oahu after two hikers, two women hikers, of course, uh called 911 and reported her screaming uh for help. So and they bandaged her up. They did. They they found her and I immediately called 911. And one of them, I guess, was a nurse or had a had a um like a medical kit or some kind of a first aid kit and bandaged her wounds and and stayed with her until police came.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's just uh so amazing of the the fellow hikers to do that because you know, as a woman, it is so scary to see another woman brutalized. Yeah. Um, and to, you know, of course you're thinking, oh my gosh, that could be me. Like who did that to? Where are where are they? And so it's really courageous of them to, you know, stay with her and keep, which is what they should do, of course. But like it is, it's scary, you know, because it's like, mm, you can do do that to you. Like, that's terrifying. And there were only a few of them. It wasn't like a huge group, so it wasn't like there would be um, like it wasn't, I don't know. It's just the he could have come back and and killed all of them, and they took that chance to help out a fellow person.
SPEAKER_00Right. And and it it it is often like that too, because think of that Devil's Den case where the the husband puts up a fight and the the his wife takes the kids to a safe place, comes back for him, and unfortunately is killed in the end. Um, but you know, it's it's so often uh it's actually one or two courageous women. Do you remember the case that uh the woman that was attacked um in I think it was Syria, um and they they tore her clothes off in someone and it was women who actually uh saved herself? It's it's you know, we don't think of that. We always think as uh you know heroics as being a typical masculine thing, but I don't very very often it it's not. Very often it's uh you know more of a love thing from from a woman that's courageous and it's because they've been there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. Exactly. It's because they've been there and like I don't understand why men don't step in like and they see themselves as like protectors often. It's just like what? And it's so funny because like there's all this like commentary online about, you know, oh, like women would be better without men around or you know, around at night or you know, whatever. Right. And men will always comment who would protect you, and then women always comment back, protect us from what? Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00What? Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Uh what I was But also they don't protect us. It's it's very frustrating.
SPEAKER_00It is like I I remember um just a couple weeks ago, I was coming back from your house, Sherry and I were coming back on the train, and uh we're sitting there, and this this woman was um young girl was like reading on the train, and um I I looked up and you know I saw this guy acting weird. As per usual, just uh just acting oddly. And I was trying to figure out are they together or what's going on? And he was like rolling around on the train floor looking up at her and stuff, and it freaked her out eventually, and she walked up toward where some of us were sitting, and the guy came loping up there, and I noticed that a lot of people were looking down and not paying attention. But um, I I kind of I looked up and I looked directly at him and I was staring at him and he looked at me and just kind of like uh not that I'm scary, but I was looking, right? So he um he kind of rolled around over to the door like I'm like like some sort of an ape or something.
SPEAKER_01He was probably on drugs.
SPEAKER_00For sure.
SPEAKER_01I for sure but or a mental health or both.
SPEAKER_00Either way, but he he got by the door and then when they got to the next station, he he thankfully rolled off. Rolled off. So he's just like, what is going on? So yeah, it happened.
SPEAKER_01It's not funny, it's just it's ridiculous. Like just it happens more than you think. You're telling me, literally, but it's also interesting because like people look down like so they don't get, you know, involved. Right. However, I will say, I always I I keep my eyes down, but I know where they are. I I'm very aware. So, like, you know, I'm happy that you were able to like kind of I don't know, like keep him away. So I don't know if I kept him away.
SPEAKER_00I le I at least he knew someone was watching.
SPEAKER_01Intimidate, intimidate him a little bit.
Trial Claims And The Syringe
SPEAKER_00So, so because I I remember Sherry, like I kind of sat up in my seat and I guess I tensed uh because she's like, what's up? And I told her what was going on. And she's like, Oh, wow. So, anyways, but it but yeah, so it happens more than you think. So, in terms of the trial, the trial took place in Honolulu and lasted approximately three weeks. So both Gernhart and uh Ariel Koenig um testified, uh offering you know sharply contrasting accounts of the doctor claimed that he acted in self-defense, alleging that his wife attacked him first and struck, and he struck her only in a response to defend himself.
SPEAKER_01And what was the needle for?
SPEAKER_00Ah, that's a good point. Yeah. Uh prosecutors you know presented evidence of the body cam footage and you know showed Ariel Coning, you know, bloodied and disoriented and so on. And and yeah, you know, the big thing was um, you know, the the admission from his his mentor that, you know, first of all, why would you be carrying anesthetics?
SPEAKER_01Well, you're not allowed to. Yeah. You can't have that outside of the hospital, you're not supposed to say so he snuck something out apparently.
SPEAKER_00Um and there's no other reason for him to be carrying that, right? And a syringe in your pocket.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I think, I think it's very um it's very straightforward and so on. So uh on April 8th, so just last month uh of 2026, the haunt the jury convicted Dr. Codig of attempting uh manslaughter, a lesser charge of secondary degree of attempted murder. Uh the jury concluded that the evidence did not support finding uh that he had intent to kill her, which I don't understand in any way.
SPEAKER_01Me neither, because what the he tried to push her off a cliff.
SPEAKER_00He tried to push her off a cliff. Now no one witnessed that portion, so it's a he said said she said thing, but I mean I believe her because she's bloodied.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00Like what? So I I I did see it like he may have had like a scratch on his face, but she was literally bleeding from the head.
SPEAKER_01No, she was very bloody. I was surprised that they allowed like a video of it on TikTok. She was very badly injured from the head.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. Like exactly. And and she's you know, she's down on the ground. It's not doesn't sound like me. She was posing much of a threat. So then he goes, Well, I'm just gonna, you know, smack her in the head with a rock just to make sure. I mean, it doesn't make any sense at all.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00Uh so he faces a maximum of 20 years in prison. Only yeah, um, and will remain in custody at uh the Oahu Community Corrections uh facility there until his sentence, and that's supposed to be August 13th, 2026. Uh, his defense attorney says that they will appeal the verdict.
SPEAKER_01Whatever.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, I mean, it's it it's crazy. It's crazy. The world is kind of a kind of an odd place and so on. And I didn't know that that this kind of thing really went on. Oh, yeah. Uh and it what I read from the psychologist does make sense because you know, we've all had breakups. Some better than others.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But um, you know, some you feel bad, some you feel you're you're like it's it was the right thing to do. But um yeah, I mean, I can't imagine I mean he was a doctor, he was an anesthesiologist. I mean, he's not he's making some pretty decent money, and she's an you know an engineer. So there were I I don't understand these things seem to be going on a great, you know, in a great trajectory for them. I don't understand what happened there.
SPEAKER_01It's mental illness because what what are we talking about? Like I I don't understand how people can do this to one another, especially people that they're supposed to love. But it doesn't surprise me that it is commonly like it doesn't surprise me that it's commonly men doing this because when you are dating a man or living with a man, 80% of the time a person who kills you will be him.
SPEAKER_00Right, right.
SPEAKER_01That's terrifying. Right. I don't know how people do it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Luckily, I'm a lesbian.
SPEAKER_00But now, to to be fair, I mean, there is some of that in the lesbian community, right? A very small percentage.
Why Relationship Violence Happens
SPEAKER_01Yes, there is. Um, yeah, they actually did a study which is super interesting. Um so women who um go who go on first dates with men compared to women who go on first dates with women, the the threat of the man is is much more, right? Sure. It's it's more dangerous to date men. Um however, once you're in a relationship, the threat for domestic violence almost goes to the same um percentage. Like you have the same chance of being abused by your partner, whether it's with a man or a woman, which I think is very interesting. Um do I fully think that's true? I don't know, but I do think it's interesting that um that it's possible. I I think it is interesting that it's possible. And I have seen, unfortunately, um, people who have been in lesbian abusive relationships. It's very sad. Right. Um and again, I don't understand how you could do that to a woman, especially being a woman, but you know, people are crazy. People are crazy.
SPEAKER_00People are crazy and relish relationships are difficult, but uh like so many things that we talk about here, it all comes down to like a more of a mental health thing than anything else. I think so too. Yeah. And you know, I mean relationships are difficult. I mean, they're just they're difficult to maintain, they're difficult to start, you know. So I don't in this day and age, um I don't think it's unusual for younger people to be um you know, kind of gun shy about relationships and so on. And I mean when I was young now, I'm not young, I'm in my 60s, so this has been a long time ago. It was very, very, you know, very much of a pattern. You know, you you got out of school, you got married, you had children. It was kind of and you work for 20 years and you retire with that company. 20. A dream. A dream, yeah. You have a pension and all that kind of stuff. Oh the the fairy tale ending and so on, which um you know it does happen. I have friends living down in North Carolina uh named Kristen Cheryl, and they're they're they're like they're just Like that. They met in college. They've been married for like 35 years. They have six children. And that's very cute. And anytime I see them, there's no strife. There's no, it's just like they met the right person. Yeah. And and it requires the right temperament and personalities too. Yes. I asked Chris one time when he uh realized that he was in love with Cheryl. And I don't know if this is a joking or not, but he goes, when she told me we were in love.
SPEAKER_01That's funny.
SPEAKER_00It's funny and cute.
True Crime Curiosity And Red Flags
SPEAKER_01Um, but yeah, no, I think especially with this kind of situation, I think it's like it's so crazy the entitlement of it all for him to take away someone's life just because he wasn't interested in her, or just because their relationship wasn't working out, or because he wanted money, or you know, whatever. And I mean, obviously he's an anesthesiologist, so he had money, but who knows what he was doing with that. You know what I mean? People can people can blow money no matter how much it is. So he could just have needed money and was like, I don't really like her, so I guess I'll just use her in this way. It's just, it's really sad and it's it doesn't make sense to me, I guess, uh, because I have empathy, but it's it's it's just so crazy. I don't understand how people don't have empathy for others and to the point of like apathy for others. And, you know, it's just it's so interesting. And I think that's why true crime is so interesting to a lot of us, right? Um, because a lot of people think it's like it's very gross to listen to true crime or like, ew, why do you do that? And I understand like the hesitation because it is, it's scary and it's gross and it's weird, right? To hear about people hurting other people. But um what fascinates me about it, I guess, is just trying to understand why this happened. And I think that is a lot of the reason why people do listen to true crime, trying to figure out why it happened. What are the red flags for like a person who would do this? How can I protect myself? Um, as well as like just uh it's shocking. It's so shocking.
SPEAKER_00So, so in this case, uh, in some of the source material I read that um he had um had suspicions that she was having an affair. And he while she was sleeping, check this out, he grabbed her phone and did the face recognition thing while she was sleeping and opened it up, found the emails that she had been um talking to her co-worker. And uh so that that led to part of this. But then then they went to counseling and everything seemed to be all right. And I don't know, something if everything he said in the counseling was just uh you know, just to lead just to to say it. Probably probably, and that he always planned after he found out that she was gonna have an accident. I mean, wow, that's terrifying.
SPEAKER_01It is terrifying, especially over something like obviously cheating is not good. Obviously, it's bad. Right. Um however, it does not allow it doesn't constitute uh murder. Like really? Just break up with the person. Obviously, you can be hurt, you can be sad, you can be angry at that person. Um uh, but we don't need to assault or murder them. Right. Like it's just again, back to the entitlement of it all. It's like you think you were so great that like, oh, this happened to you, they don't deserve to live anymore. What is the reasoning?
SPEAKER_00Well, and I don't understand the part of it with regard to um I get that sometimes you you thought their relationship was good and it and it wasn't. And uh but I I don't understand when people, male or female, just think that well, if if I can't have them, then no one will have them scary. My goodness, there I I honestly believe that there's no no just one person for you. So that there are other people out there, and by doing something this stupid and sociopathic, uh, you're never gonna you're never gonna ever find that.
SPEAKER_01Well that, but also I think clearly it was never that great of it for it for or he was never if it was great, then it he was hiding some part of himself because normal people cannot do this.
SPEAKER_00Right, right.
SPEAKER_01Normal people can't throw people off the cliff.
SPEAKER_00And and I don't know, not not not blaming him or her or whatever, but I mean, apparently there was something that was lacking because she was um there was this there was an age gap. I guess he was uh maybe 10 years old or something like that. And that's not a that's not a big deal, but I mean there was something in some way he was lacking and or she thought that. Um, but still, I mean it's such a such a permanent um solution to a temporary problem because it's so weird.
SPEAKER_01There's so many people out there that you just get over it, just get over it. And if you can't get over it, go to therapy, that's fine. But like to take it out on the person who did it, like in that way, is just so so scary.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely terrifying. So um anyway, so the August 13th, uh, they will come up with the prison term and um I thought you said just 20 years, or is that the proposed that's the proposed term? Okay, but uh you know, he's scheduled to be sentenced in August 13th of this year.
Closing Updates And Where To Follow
SPEAKER_01So and we'll update you with when that happens. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on.
SPEAKER_00And remember, all of the source material will be available in the show notes.
SPEAKER_01And follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the shadows and let us know if you want to hear a specific case.
SPEAKER_00Or if you just want to give us some feedback.
SPEAKER_01Okay, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.
