Adhere To with Alexandra Dean: Behind the Scenes with a Fashion Designer Bootstrapping a Sustainable Outerwear Brand

#58. Not to get ahead of myself, but we are SO back sis!

Alexandra Dean is the founder of Adhere To, a sustainable, gender-neutral outerwear brand launched in 2022. Previously a designer at Lululemon, Alex took her knowledge of clothing design with her into providing freelance support for various brands, which ultimately allows her to fund her very own brand. Adhere To combines 100% recycled materials, ethical manufacturing and a low-carbon supply chain, all while maintaining a focus on high performance, durability and contemporary design. In this conversation I ask her all about her background in the fashion industry, experience with freelancing, the details of technical clothing design and material sourcing, what it means to be a sustainable brand, guidance for those looking to get involved in the fashion industry, and so much more.

Takeaways

• Started career in fashion design.
• Interned at Lululemon, focusing on menswear product development.
• Transitioned to women's outerwear design at Lululemon.
• Freelancing provided flexibility and financial security.
• Sustainability is a core value in her brand.
• Adhere To aims to combine aesthetics with functionality.
• Understanding supply chain is crucial for fashion brands.
• Technical design skills are essential for product development.
• Experience in large companies aids in starting a brand.
• Understanding garment construction makes you a better designer.
• Sustainability is an open-ended concept with no one right answer.
• Certifications like Oeko-Tex and BlueSign help ensure quality in sustainability.
• Consumers often struggle to discern genuine sustainability claims.
• Quality and longevity in products are key to sustainability.
• Networking and mentorship are crucial for aspiring designers.
• Sustainability doesn't mean compromising on aesthetics or functionality.
• Running a brand requires balancing multiple roles and responsibilities.
• Financial management is a significant challenge for small business owners.
• The fashion industry is evolving, and consumers will need to care about sustainability.

Adhere To Studios: https://www.adheretostudios.com/en-us

Adhere To Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adheretostudios/

Transcript

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doesn't have to be perfect. Okay. Okay, great. Okay, well, I would love to start by, first of all, thanking you again for your time. I'm really excited to share your expertise with everyone and just learn in general. So I think the first question I'd love to ask is going back to like your background, getting into fashion, and then what seems like a really pivotal series of roles at Lululemon where you got into outerwear design. Yeah, so hi, I'm Alex. So I started my like, I guess career in 2013. I was in university studying for my university or my degree in fashion design and technology. And the third year we do internships. So I got my internship actually at Lululemon in the menswear product development team. So product development focuses a lot on the construction, the materials used, sampling, so kind of creating that design and bringing it to the reality and working closely with the factories. So I started in menswear as an intern and then finished the internship and I got hired on during the summer and then the fourth year. And then once I graduated, I was hired to a full-time position versus the part-time. So I worked in menswear. in the menswear department for a few years. And also after a couple years, I started doing menswear garment design and development. So I started like this little small, very small division of myself and then one other merchandising partner where we would work with surplus materials, which was like excess materials that companies, which happens very often in companies of all sizes, they buy You know, you're going forward with a design, you buy the materials, but something happens, say they have to cancel the design. So you might own the fabrics and trims. you might have like, you know, big companies might have millions of dollars worth of liability materials. I wanted to do some, you know, instead of sitting there and going to waste, I wanted to try to problem solve and design products that... meet, you know, that I can work with these materials with, but also working closer to the market, closer to market. And, and working with merchandising, I was able to like kind of fill some gaps of what was maybe missing in the line plan. Because you know, with a typical like fashion calendar, or like a calendar with a company like Lululemon, you're working a year to two years out depending on the product. So I was able to kind of work closer to market because materials were ready. there might be already at the factory, then who knows where they are. So it was kind of a foresight almost to what I like, like, I always cared about sustainability, but I guess I didn't put into words that much. this kind of, now that I'm thinking back, it kind of shows like the leadership and initiative that I wanted to take to try to make, you know, a little bit of difference in a large company. So that lasted for a couple of years. And then I was asked to go into the women's team because they were kind of reorganizing everything and they wanted, I think, just, you know, they wanted to bring in some freshness to the team as well and revamp a few things. So I started doing more women's outerwear. And eventually I became, like in the next year, I was the women's outerwear designer for Lululemon. then and worked with a really tight-knit team who I was very close with. then, so I guess I did that for, I quit Lulu July 2019. So I was there for quite a few years. And then when I quit, I started freelancing and I left, went to Europe for a bit. And so was kind of freelancing and I actually still freelance for the same role that I had quit for just because they were like, it takes a bit of time to. replaced the role and I was happy because I was really sad to leave. loved my team. I just was ready to have a change. worked, you know, my whole career had been at one company. So I felt like it was just time to, you know, try something different. And I wasn't extremely, I wasn't exactly sure what, but I wanted to try freelancing and kind of give it a go and see what happens while I'm applying for other jobs. And it was nice because I luckily had the security of. that one contract. So that kind of alleviated a bit of the stress. And then come January, and then I started kind of getting the hang for it. And I think like that was, we spoke a bit about freelance before when we were talking privately, but anyway, that like, that having like that fallback of, you know, say if something did go wrong, I could always go back to Lulu if... you know, there was always like a bit of a fallback plan, not that that was really my plan, but I think that just mentally eases the stress of when you're in the unknown. So then I did that for a few months and then I actually ended up going to Australia after for, just for a visit, which turned out to be a lot longer because COVID. But at the same time, so I started getting more clients and taking on different types of workloads. So whether it was larger companies where I'm designing seasonally, so like Outdoor Voices, was doing some work for, and Lulam and I was still doing work for. And then I also had a couple clients that were wanting, they were like startups. So that gave me the ability to, you know, source all the products or source all the materials, I should say, all the materials and all the trims. fabrics, the factory and kind of get into that and really like build out the supply chain. So that was kind of an intro into like full building of a supply chain for a product or for apparel or, you know, bags too. But yeah, so there was yeah, it was a bit of a there was a lot going on. And at the same time is when I started working on it here too. So I was kind of, I've always juggled and I still do freelance. I still have clients that I work for quite a bit. Um, financially it helps ease a lot of the stress as a startup brand. Um, of course, my goal is one day to just focus only on the brand, but at the same time, I'm, I'm all, I work on the brand basically full time and then I work one other contract that, um, I've done for quite a few years. So it's like, you know, I've gotten good at the balance, but. Yeah, so sorry, that's a long rundown of my history to where I am now. Yeah, no, that's great. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Yeah, think the like bouncing around doing different things, not knowing how it's going to end up is a common thing that I hear from people I interview. So yeah, it's like when I'm looking at my career and trying to understand how it's going to look, it's comforting to know that you're just not going to know like exactly how it's going to work out. Yeah. And that's like, I've like, now that I've been freelancing since I guess it's been, cause I still like, this is my main source of income is through my other, I actually have a company, another company from the brand. So it's called AD Apparel Group, but the group is really just me. But it's, it's because I started, like, I was really, I started getting quite a few bigger clients that were wanting full, you know, line development from, from the ground up. So that's, you know, it made sense for me to incorporate that and make it more of a company. To this day, it's like my number one income source is that. So yeah, I think though, that's the thing is with freelancing is you kind of have to have a certain type of personality, I think, where you are okay with uncertainty and knowing that you might have to You know, you're not, you may not know, but things tend to do, they always do kind of work out in the end, but it's like getting there is, are you able to like go on that roller coaster? Some people can, some people can't, and that's either way is okay. I just think it's like, it is a different level of stress with the unknown. And for some people that's exciting. I've always kind of been excited by that opportunity of like what it could be, but. obviously there's like the times when contracts fall out or you're like, you know, you're getting hit up for a bunch of work, but you and then like the quotes go nowhere, you know, so there's a lot of that. And it's a lot of like, I used to get so excited when I'd quote something and thinking it was like dialed and then you just don't hear from them or you know, and so you can't ever rely on one thing. Even to this day, it's like there's uncertainty, like there's like you know, uncertainty in what I'm doing and if that, you know, if my like say one of my clients disappears, that's going to be like, I'm going to be like back to, you know, square one with trying to, you know, find new stuff. But things always start to come and I think it's just being able to sit in that like uncomfortable like state, I guess. I don't know. And I will say one thing though, like when I started freelancing, it took me until like March for things to really start to get rolling. And that was so that was basically July to March. So that's a long time of like, of, you know, and then things kind of slowly started, I started getting clients that were like the work was like a few months or like a half a year, you know, so then you can that then you layer on the other things. But that was one thing that when my friend like also Like, you know, or when I have people that I know around me that start freelancing and we're talking about it and they get my opinion and stuff, it's being able to, like, there's like probably like six to eight months or 10 months that might be super uneasy. And I think a lot of people's thresholds is like a few months, like three or four months because it feels like you're hitting your head against the wall. And anyway, sorry, I have a lot to say on that. was that speech? Yeah. No, you go ahead. was just going to say like, what you're saying is literally what I did last year as in the three to four months thing where like, I was like, I need to make money now. And when I didn't, it was like a really not stable situation. And that was like a big lesson, I think it was like, yeah, give it more time. And I think, but I mean, at the same time, it's like, unless you have things dial, it's, it's not like a state you want to be in either. So I get like, I get why it's not, it would be difficult. think like my one thing that I'd say for people wanting to go freelance, if you can have some sort of stability in like one, like in either, yeah, you're working extra, but you're continuing your main. job so you have one stable source of income or a part time job that's a stable source of income before and then you start building up and then start like, you're like dipping your toes but at least you have something you can fall back on because that like stress of not knowing what's next and being like, am I going to be able to pay rent next month is where you're going to say, okay, I got to go back to a nine to five kind of thing. But again, it's hard because every, you know, everyone's situation is very different. And, but I always think like, if you have something you can fall back on, it's like for me with the brand, it's like, I want to make it a hundred percent, you know, what I'm working on. But the reality is if I stopped contracting and doing contract work, I would be so stressed financially and unable to support the brand. And that's, it's just not worth it. where you're kind of like the chicken and the egg. It's like, okay, but maybe I'd have more time to push into it. But you give it as much, like I still give it, I work on it every day for quite a few, like many hours all the time. So it's not like I'm compromising, but I do think like there is something in having some sort of stability in your life for when it comes financially for sure. Yes, this has been a massive thing I've been thinking about the last six months. And I feel like I used to romanticize freelancing because it was like that ownership aspect that like control over your time, but actually trying it, which I'm glad I did, because now I know what it felt like for me personally. really made me like take a step back and be like, okay, like, there are like costs that come with this. yeah, it's definitely an interesting dilemma, for sure. And I think too, like, I don't know if this is just my experience, but I feel like also what like your, like, depending on your age, like, I feel like I must've been, I guess, 27-ish when I decided, like, I feel like I felt more, like, you're a bit more, like, comfortable and like, maybe in my career too, I felt like I reached a point where the services I'd offer, people would actually, consider them and not, you know, and know that I had experience and that experience led me to be more secure freelancing. So that I do think that also can impact it too. Versus like if you're freelancing or trying to start freelancing right when you get out of university or something like, it depends what you're doing, obviously, but for the services I'm offering, it makes it made sense or like it kind of worked the way it worked out to have that corporate experience. And then I was able to kind of take that and run with that and implement it into my, you know, to this day. Yeah, definitely. Well, okay. Well, I want to ask you about adhere to and kind of the story of like what inspired you starting your own brands. And I'm trying to think of the order in which to ask these questions. But yeah, just in general, I think it'd be good to get your story on like why you started it. Obviously, there's a big emphasis. on sustainability and the production process, which I like, I'm so interested in. Like I've genuinely been so interested in like what that even means in the fashion industry. Cause I feel like it's kind of hidden. And there's a lot of like complexity slash like vagueness about this situation and like how does this brand or this piece of clothing actually affect like the environment? I'm just. excited to hear about the story of your brand. Yeah, so, okay, so I grew up in Vancouver. It's very much like a mountain rain city. There's a lot more surrounded by nature. I was, you know, I spent a lot of time outdoors. So there's a bit like things kind of stem, I guess, from when I was very young. And then, and then, going fast forward to when I'm working in the fashion industry and, you know, our biggest companies here are Lululemon and Arc'teryx that all, you know, they're very technical. And I think there was just like working in the industry for so long too, designing technical product, working in sports where I, there was something for me where I, you know, I had always a bit of a different aesthetic personally. so I really felt like there was a bit of a lack of this more contemporary street aesthetic in technical outerwear, that didn't compromise the functionality of it. But then also being that say for outerwear, it's very harmful for the environment. Like there's no doubt about it. uses harsh chemicals or harsh materials and harsh chemicals. and you're also, you know, you're using them to go outdoors. So. it's a bit of an oxymoron. there's just, I just saw that there was more that could be, like it could be better. There was no reason for it to not be aside from obviously financial, like, you know, companies want to save money. So doing things sustainably or like using lower impact recycled materials or whatever they might be that are actually certified with the right certifications are going to cost more. And that's the reality of it. And, you know, large companies, have their board, maybe that is saying, you know, they have to reach the quota for the, for money. So anyway, there's, you know, there's a few things that can dictate that. I, okay, sorry, my, like, I need to get my train of thought here. So there was a few factors that came into the play here. So I saw that being in the industry, having designed and developed for brands for people, I always tried to use, you know, lower impact materials. when I could. Definitely was harder to find years ago, but now there's a lot more options out there and there's a lot of, you know, better auditing processes you can go through. So I saw like I would create brands and or design for brands and I just felt like things could always be a bit better for the materials used and the supply chain, factories, stuff like that, all like quality wise. and also implementing something where you get more of the aesthetic, like why, okay. So I'm, for example, I'm living in Vancouver. It's raining a lot. I'm going out for dinner or going out for the day and I have like a nice outfit on, and then I have to put on my rain jacket that just like ruins the, it doesn't go right. And I, that's also why I just never owned a rain jacket and I was an outer, I was designing them, So it was like, why, where is this disconnect, right? why is it that anything that kind of looks in the aesthetic that I like, it's not going to be as functional or it's going to be, you know, crappy materials that might not, you know, offer the function that you want. So anyway, that was kind of like the three pillars of the brand that I felt that this trifecta could be combined into creating something that is strong and, for intentional. So I also just didn't want to create, I didn't want to create product just to create product because obviously we don't need anything more in the world and I'm aware of that. But I do think there's like a miss in technical outerwear that has a sustainability background and actual, entire supply chain is vetted, which I spent about two years doing that when I started the building out the brand. So anyway, that's, I guess that's kind of a bit of a run around, but that's. my whole background and I like thought process behind it all and where it all came from. Yeah, yeah, the thing you described about when you're wearing a nice outfit and then you have to put on outerwear. Yeah, I'm from Michigan, so yeah, it's like ruins the vibe 100%. Yeah. I didn't have to. I think it's always different brand. Like obviously my customer is going to be a bit different to ArcGyarix's customer, you know, and that's, but I'm tapping into that customer. I guess it's kind of like me. Yeah, totally. Okay, yeah. And the thing you mentioned about harsh chemicals needing to be used for outerwear, like, honestly, I didn't even, like, think that, like, and that makes me want to ask questions about, like, I don't know, like, kind of the roles that you've done in fashion in the fashion industry and how that kind of has, helped or there's been like a lack of as you founded your own brand because I'm imagining when you're founding your own brand, you're not like you're not at a big company like Lululemon where there's like all these different pieces that people play. So like it sounds like you were a designer primarily, but like I think what would be helpful for me personally is even understanding like what that means. But then you're also talking about like you were for startups and you worked more on the whole supply chain process, start to finish. So I just love to learn more from you about what goes into being a designer, maybe even did you really need that background? I know you have a degree in fashion. And then how that helps in starting it here too. Yeah, think, I mean, okay, I design is definitely very important in what I do and what I've done. when, so that being said, I was designing tech wear too. So it was very, the product that I'm working on is very technical and the way that Lululemon was set up too, I was doing the designers there do a lot more technical work than say some of the other companies that are larger companies. And I also did probably equally a bit of garment development, which is where you're like working with the factories, you're working on the materials of the garment, stitching, construction. So I think it all kind of plays together for sure. And so... when I started setting up supply chains for startups and stuff. I had good relationships and had worked closely with different fabric mills and the factories with Lululemon. So I was really well versed in visiting Asia and being hands on there. So it felt very comfortable for me to source materials moving forward when I started this next endeavor. And so I do think it really translated. So what I do like to do to this day. So basically I will kind of do everything that is involved in developing a product and getting it to production. So I will basically get a brief or create a brief for the, for the client. And this is also what I do for myself too. So I'll create the brief for the design or the season, whatever. And then once that's kind of approved, you know, you go into sketching. So I'll do different sketches of different options and then you'll finalize the, you'll get the final design. I'll put that into a technical drawing and then expand on that in a tech, in what's called a technical to create a tech pack. So the technical is like, well, draw on illustrator, every detail, like stitch component, call it all the materials, any, any detail I will. call it out on this visual document and then do a bill of materials, measurements, and then pattern maybe whatever you might need and combine that and then send that to the factory. At the same time, I'm sourcing fabrics. So I have a huge fabric library now that I've built up through my years of sourcing and connections with fabric mills. That, so I'll source fabrics and get that lined up for sample yardage and materials. And then sometimes I'll design all my trims. I've designed custom trims as well. So you'll start trim development. you kind of create, yeah. So anyway, there's a lot of those components. And then once I send this out, they make a prototype or a sample. And then they'll send that to me. And then we'll do a fitting. And then kind of repeat that process. I'll give comments, update what's and then repeat that process until we go into what's a size run. and then go into the next like PP sample, pre-production sample, depending on the brand too as well. And then you go into production and then there's all the other components that are involved in that for materials and stuff. So I've kind of done everything from the ground up for product. And yeah, so there's a lot of stages that I think, and that's just really like, you know, I didn't go into some of the details of like... care labels and the logistical things that you have to kind of factor in and the legalities around that and shipping and exporting and all the things I've learned a lot though from my brand now too, because exporting and like all the production side after things kind of go into bulk production, I normally would hand off at that point. But for my brand and some of the other companies I work with now, that's like where I'm involved in as well. Yeah. Okay. So fascinating. wait, what is... Okay, sorry. Okay. sorry if this is obvious, but when you say trim, what does that mean exactly? zippers, snaps, cord locks, shot cord, webbing. Binding. Anything that is not the fabric, we would call a trim. So like your pants would have the button or shank or something, and then a zipper. So it would be trims and the thread. Basically, anything that isn't a fabric is a trim. Or what we would... Consider this trim. Okay, another question I have is do you like, do you make like prototypes or do you like sew any of this yourself and then ultimately, do you like know how to do that as well? Is that part of what you've done? Yeah, so I can and I like in university, we had to do a whole collection that we pattern drafted and so we sewed everything. But I now because I'm working always with like, like outerwear and stuff, there's machine or it's just like not worth the time. And I don't have the machinery that's needed for someone to do it accurately. So there's things like, I'll mock up like maybe a very like a Muslim, which is like this like canvas. that you just like to create, to make sure like a shape of the sleeve is right for the pattern. But like, I don't do that as much anymore just because I don't have the machinery that I need and it's not where the best use of my time is when, you know, I can, but it's definitely, I can do it. It's also, I don't love sewing as much as some people. Okay, I was gonna ask because do you think it's necessary for someone to be able to recreate the concepts physically or even like necessarily important if they want to start a fashion brand? Because I feel like this is a big question that's been on my mind because that's like, that's a big skill set to learn. Honestly, mean, okay, so I don't, you don't need to be able to do that. I think there's, it's important though to understand construction and how something comes and like how a design translates into being constructed because that will translate into the sewing line that the factory uses, right? But at the same time, depending on the product, it, you and your part, like the factory, maybe that you're working or whoever, say if it's a smaller, local factory and stuff, their capabilities. With that, I feel like it's probably worth working with someone that can do it versus you spending your time. One thing I'll say is like, time is money. So it's like, don't focus, don't waste your time on where you don't have skill set, focus on where you do and hand that work off to someone you, you know, trust and work with and can pay to do that. Cause I feel like, you know, that's important to hone in on your skills versus trying to be like a jack of all trades, depending on what it is. But I will say it's obviously beneficial to know and understand how something's constructed, to be able to understand, then you'll able to understand the fit better when you're fitting the sample. And obviously it's great to know everything, but it depends on your willingness to learn and how much time you have. Yeah, totally. Okay, that's really helpful to hear. And then when you're talking about like the technical designs that you use, like illustrator to make, and then all these other elements of that part, is that something that like, you learn the basics of in college and then kind of like expanded on throughout your roles? Because it sounds like a fairly complex process that I'm imagining that It might be something that gets refined through your experiences in industry. Yeah, 100%. So we definitely learned the foundations in my degree. like you do, but it was only until I went into Lululemon and actually worked in a company that I learned things. I feel like they'll kind of prep you, it's like until you're actually doing it, it's very different. The industry is different than what schooling might be. And also companies work different ways too. But definitely this is something that like grew tremendously once I actually started working professionally versus when I was in university. So yeah, I definitely think it is definitely something that stands, yeah. It's funny. just makes me think of like, it's like sometimes I look at fashion and I think I romanticize fashion as well, where I'm like, my gosh, like I don't know anything, but it's like, I studied computer science and then I went into data engineering and I like did not know what that was when I studied computer science. So I feel like it's like, you can probably, it's like, it's similar situation across like, yeah. like my experience is going to be so different to someone, you know, like I went into more technical apparel, but obviously fashion is going to be a totally different experience for other people. And there's a lot of companies that you can, you know, you, the designer is going to be doing like the sketching and then they get a technical designer to translate that. Lou, I mean, was just very hands on or like technical and everything. So it was like, I did that translation. So I was taking my sketch and putting into that, which, know, it was a lot, it can be tedious and not like always the most fun stuff, but it does make you a much better designer because I understand how something's constructed. So I know that seam line will work going into this other one versus some, you know, if I didn't understand construction or how fit worked, like pattern making, then you might just be kind of like creating pretty drawings but they're not going to translate into actual garments. Okay, that's really useful to know. Okay, another question. When you mentioned the certifications for sustainability, I'm really fascinated about that and how you even learned about that. Was that something that companies you've worked with utilized or is that something that you really wanted to prioritize for your brand? As for the, if companies worked with them before, there wasn't like any strict standards that I know of that companies I work with that wanted to follow these certifications. But it was more when I started doing really deep diving research on sustainability and what that even means, because sustainability is so open ended, there's not like a right answer. So it was actually quite frustrating because I was going in circles a lot of times like my whole like ethos of what direction I was going to go for it with sustainability changed a bunch because you know, there is there's not one answer. So it's like I can, I'm using synthetic materials, which yeah, there's microplastics. Granted, it's recycled, but there's still going to be some microplastics. But 100 % recycled nylon. is going to be the most, is going to be much more technical. It's better for longevity. It's better durability than a hundred percent cotton. So there's so many and like cotton, there's so many different, you know, there's not always one right answer, but what the best answer was, what is your like for me, like what does the brand, is the brand going to stand for? And it's like durability, longevity and performance matter. So finding good sources that have recycled yarns and fibers that are sourced from, you know, sourced profilly are gonna be the best for what I'm doing. So anyway, so with that though, in all the research that I've done and just, guess, from knowing, knew, you know, I knew of... some of them, but I deep dove a lot. And then there's world accredited certifications that different mills or like fabrics and then also like factories, they get audited yearly and they have to kind of maintain the standard. so that kind of gives me a good platform to start with because I'm a small brand. can't go. and I can't hire a third party auditor, but I know that these certifications like Okitax or BlueSign, they're going into the facilities and they're auditing, ensuring that the processing for say water waste management is effective. So it's like, it's everything from how they say, and like for recycled yarns, it's all global recycled standards, so it's. ensuring they are actually recycled yarns and where they're sourced from. They're not just saying they're recycled. So it's like there's, I use the certifications as a baseline to ensure some level of quality and trust. Of course, you you never know with things, but I like to like based on the research with blue sign, oaktags, and they're very like, I don't know, they're pretty, they care a lot about what they're doing. So that means that I, you know, I can trust a bit what they're doing. so those are kind of like my baseline, I guess. Yeah. Do you feel like with all the research that you've done, and also all your experience actually designing for companies, like, and working with like the supply chain and material sourcing and all the things, do you feel like when you look at a brand online, like if you, I know a lot of brands now have like a tab where you can look at their like efforts to be sustainable. Do you feel like you have a good read on what that actually means or the validity in their claims given everything you know. Yeah, would say, mean, compared to the average consumer, definitely do. like, there is also so much verbiage and wording for marketing to make like greenwashing. So I definitely have like sifted through so much of that. And I was super against saying, even saying sustainable, but I know like for my SEO, have to say sustainable because people, if I say low impact, they're like, what, like people, not everyone knows what I mean by that. But anyway, so I do think for sure there's, I, there's a lot of things that people could say that they're doing, but you know, some things are just blanket statements or they're just like, kind of like, well, of course, but what else would you be doing? Unfortunately, there's a lot of that. Yeah. Do you think people care about that? Like, yeah. I know, that's where I felt like I had a bit of a rude awakening, I guess, when I started. I have my sustainability story and it is very prominent, but it's not my number one marketing tactic. I think people are attracted to pretty things first and then price is going to... That's another thing. doing everything how I've done it, it does raise the price. So that, I think, you know, it takes a longer time for a brand, a consumer to trust the brand when you're paying a bit more, right? You want to make sure when you're buying something, it's worth it. So I think there's a bit of a, I don't know, it's like, people do care, people want to care, but I think there's priorities first, and then there's sustainability. But at the same time, I'm trying to tap into the market that actually does care and has the ability and the financial ability to care a bit more because yeah, I am aware that it does cost a bit more than some of the competitors say competitor of mine. But yeah. Yeah, yeah, I wonder about that a lot as well and I almost I'm like people Might care but like it's so confusing like which of these brands are telling the truth I don't I don't think the average consumer Like actually knows what that means like just from my experience and it's like that doesn't like even though I want it to be a different way, that doesn't mean that's like how it is, you know? Yeah. I think, I mean, there is definitely people who care. I think quality is what people will care bit more like quality is something that I mean, different levels, but I feel like quality is what matters a lot. that also, you know, sustainability is, I do think longevity in a piece and quality in a piece, like, you're not just throwing away is sustainable, right? So I think that's what people care about, whether they're like, I'm not going to wear this unless it's this, like, I don't know. There are people for sure that do care though, but it's definitely going to be a bit smaller. But I do think people are going to be forced to care soon. It's like, it's inevitable. There's way the world's going rapidly. It's kind of, it needs, people need to care, but. I also think sustainability has always been seen as like a granola thing. So people assume that anything that's offered sustainable is going to be like some boring item or look like a hemp sack on them or something. like now things are shifting for sure, but like it doesn't have the whole thing of my brand. It's like, there's no reason to compromise on functionality, aesthetics, anything, right? So. that's like just because it's sustainable, there's no compromise. So yeah. Yeah, very cool. And then, yeah, I guess like, the question I have is like, obviously going the more sustainable route is still a choice at this stage and probably requires more due diligence, obviously, and thoughtfulness around probably pricing. I guess what I'm getting at is like, how does that affect like, are you paying more for materials given what you've chosen, like the direction you've chosen to give it? And then like also, yeah, like what's your view on that? Like you obviously chose a sustainable route and again, like you didn't have to, so what's your view on that? There's definitely, yeah, like I was saying earlier, there is for sure more like things are going to cost more and they cost more for me. Like for in all materials. So every item that I choose is going to be a bit more than a virgin yarn or something maybe that is like cheaply made and maybe not as like such a premium mill. So there's definitely a price difference for sure. And I knew that going into it though, there was no way around it, but it's just to me, it's like, if I'm gonna create something, I need to create it right and it needs to be done well or else why would I bother? There's no reason for me to create anything. So if I'm gonna do it, I wanna do it in the best way I can and offer something that's intentional. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's great. We need more. We need more like that for sure. Okay. Being unconscious of time, I'm going to go into some questions about what it's like now, like actually running the brand, like how you've grown it and things. So I would love to hear your favorite part about what you do today and then your biggest challenges. Okay. My favorite part, I think it's like, it's very rewarding. My favorite part is seeing things go from ideation to actual final garment into production. That is always, that's like the most rewarding thing and probably my favorite thing. The biggest challenge, I mean, I think the biggest challenge, I mean, there's a lot of them, is juggling the workload and different hats you wear. And a huge portion of my job now with the brand is marketing versus actual design and development of products. So because I'm only, I'm doing it mostly on my own. there's, I employ one marketing assistant that helps me right now about eight hours a week. So There's like, there's just so much involved in marketing to keep the brand building or like building awareness and keeping up brand awareness and just keeping it going that that takes up so much time. And I would love to focus on more of the product. I am but I really have to like, like learn how to manage time and then juggling my other workload as well. So I think it's like workload is definitely the hardest right now. Just because I self-funded the brand and I don't really have any intention yet to get any investors or if I ever will. I'm not gonna say never. I'm not turning my nose up at all, but I'm going to see how far I can do it until if I have to or not. So I think just time management and like how... some things really suck up your time a lot more. another really challenging thing and something that I'm just not very strong on. It's like all the like accounting and tax or like accounting that comes with incorporated businesses and having to having some being someone that is like not a very much a I hate looking at like anything financial and like, you know, it's and like taxes and learning all the things like every month I have to do all these, you know, payments to the government and just different things. And it's very overwhelming. It was just something that I'm not, I lack a lot of skill in there or just, I don't like it. So I kind of like pretend it doesn't exist, but I have to obviously do it. yeah, there's just like all other things that you just kind of forget about when you're diving into something or you don't think about until you're in it. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, the financial thing sounds very overwhelming, but I feel like it goes back to what you saying earlier about the Jack of... Don't try to be a Jack of all trades, or it's like, there are going to be people who know what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. I know that's something I try to tell myself as well. Okay, now I would love to ask you some questions for prospective fashion designers. I have thought a lot about fashion design, but it's so overwhelming to me and it's really easy to look at it and be like, how do I get from here to there? Should I even try? Which I'm really not trying to think that way. Like I wanna be open to doing anything I wanna do in the future and I wanna be like a proponent of that. So. What are your suggestions of getting involved in fashion design without a degree or a background? In fashion, what are some ways to get started? One thing that I can already think of is finding a mentor and helping them do whatever you can do. Yeah, I think like without any background or schooling, there are a lot of like short term courses you can take to now that kind of like can get your foot in the door. And it's like networking, honestly. And networking is the biggest thing I'd say. But if one major thing, like you said, it's like mentoring or getting a mentor, interning, I'd say interning, like even if you're offering to do stuff. for like a couple months for free just to get your like you learn so much. If you're eager, I think that will stand out. And being able to kind of just get your foot in the door in that way would be huge. And I think like, you know, classic training and schooling might not be necessary if you have the like the will and the drive and the curiosity to do it. I think, you know, I do think that or you you work, I know a lot of people kind of go into retail and certain boutiques that are in that like direction they want to get into. Maybe they do some styling for photo shoots, doing creative things or like content. Like nowadays, you can kind of get into like, I don't know, I don't know, there's like so many avenues that just depends on where your interests lie and what you're comfortable doing. But I think it's like if you, you know, if offering a service to build your portfolio to a small brand where you're doing trade for service versus asking them for money, like that exposure and while building your portfolio could be huge. And, you know, I think now too with like TikTok and social media, people... there's so many people that are showing their process of how they're starting and what they're doing and whether it's like someone who's actually established or not. It's like they can do that and people follow along. It kind of makes it possible more possible in a way. But yeah, I guess the best way would really be like emailing a brand that you really love or smaller brand. And there's so much that has to happen in small brands and they don't have a lot of money. Like we don't have, we don't have money. So having someone that really cares and has passion and that shows through and they're offering some sort of service for like trade for mentorship and learning for a few months or whatever it might be that that's always can go a long way and you sometimes it could lead to you getting a part-time job or position in the in the company or then you have that on your experience or on your resume so it's like building blocks Yeah, that's super helpful. Thank you for all those pieces of advice. Which leads me into also just let me know when you have to go. I just have like one other question. Okay, thanks. Another question. So as a technical person who can code and knows her way around data, I have a tough time bridging the gap between what I do for tech companies. and fashion brand, but I also am like, there must be a way that I can, like my skills are valuable to brands, whether it's like, I don't know, optimizing like the supply chain, analyzing metrics, like, I don't know, something like that. what, like, given your experience, you obviously have a lot more exposure. What do you think? Is there any way like that you can think of? Well, okay, so with your like, you said data and what kind of coding do you do, first of all, just so I can get an idea. it for languages? SQL, but like also data engineering. So typically it's like building a flow for the data at a company and then also knowing your way around like analyzing it, getting insights from it, things like that. Yeah, well, one thing that I've learned and that is another huge part of the business is reviewing data and analytics from and studying consumer behavior. So that like to me, that's kind of a direct translation and a lot of designers or people going in from the fashion world, that's like, this is different. So it's like, I'm like, you know, learning how to run ads and reading that and trying to understand like, consumer behavior through like what their link clicks and how long they're pausing on this for. it's like stuff that I'd never thought about before. And I'm like, hurts my head. But like, that's something that's so important because people, where do people sell, everyone sells online now. And that's really important. So kind of like, I could see something with that or, know. Hmm. there for sure. yeah, anything I think there's so many, you know, you could, I mean, offering like a report of studying like their analytics of consumer behavior, and then they can retarget like target their the way they add or their advertisements or how they their websites laid out and stuff like that. It's a huge thing. You know, I don't know if that's kind of more SEO. yeah. It's huge. Like that's something that I'm like, working on deeply with my, I luckily have a friend who really specializes in that because I have no idea, but she's doing really deep analytics for my, for me right now, because this is something that wasn't set up well for me. And I think a lot of, if I think of any small brands, they're, this is like, that's not something they specialize in. So they're kind of learning as they go. So you could maybe like offer something like that too, which could be super. helpful. I mean, I know that would be huge for me too, or for any like any company that's a bit smaller, you know, they might not have it as dialed. Like, consume. Yeah, like, yeah. I don't know. I think that's, that's one thing that I can think of off the bat that is very important for a company. And that's something that's very on topic for me right now. Yeah, definitely. That's super helpful. I was just casually going to ask you about your hopes and dreams for the future, but if you have to go, that's okay. I mean, I have like five minutes. can do it. My hopes and dreams. Okay, well, I mean, there's different like levels of it, some sooner, some maybe further out. But I mean, the biggest goal right now is to become profitable and actually be able to profit from the business and instead of being, you know, not profitable yet, as a, you know, new business two years in. So that would be the main thing is to eventually have this business and brand be profitable where eventually I could potentially maybe stop contracting and then do this, be my only thing. And in that too, that would be growing my team to having full-time employees as well. And also then having right now my studio space is also like, it's a hybrid of where I live too, which is good. There's space for it, but I would love to. have a separate, you know, office eventually that I can have also all my inventory because I rent a storage area to for my inventory. So that would be another goal that I'm hoping I can do sooner than later. So we'll see in the next year what happens. But that would be, I guess, first and then hopefully, in turn, things start to take off more and, you know, profitability would be the number one thing just, you know, survive and Yeah. on the brand 100%. Okay, well, that sounds amazing. I mean, it's really impressive, like how much work you've already put in. It was balancing all the things and I can only imagine like how challenging it's been, but also probably like so full of learning and yeah, so I mean, those are other questions, but I like seriously love learning from you. So thank you so much. for having me. It was fun. love to like, I mean, you know, I've gone through a lot of things. So I love to share and hopefully people will take what they will from it. And maybe I can help a little bit for someone. So that's always, that's what matters for me right now. Yeah, no, it was great. Thank you so much. Thank you.