#63. Wait, Say More with Eric Cheng: Former Comedic Writer Pivots to Podcasting

Eric Cheng is the founder and host of the existential zillenial podcast “Wait, Say More”, recently rebranded from its previous title of “No, So True”. With “Wait, Say More", he aims to tackle the real challenges of navigating your late twenties now in a funny and earnest way. After starting his career in comedy writing and performance, Eric transformed his own quarter life crisis and mental health journey into a platform that has already reached over 13 million impressions across media channels in the first 9 months. Through his work as a teacher, dance coach, and 988 suicide and crisis lifeline counselor, Eric brings a unique perspective to conversations about everything from unemployment and dating to managing anxiety and ADHD. His podcast creates space for underrepresented voices while offering honest discussions about the topics we don't talk about enough during what many consider the hardest time of life. In this episode, we chat all about the reality of building in public, what’s involved in podcast production, why Eric does what he does and what he’s learned from podcasting, and so much more.

https://www.instagram.com/nosotruepod/

Transcript

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. Hi Eric. Thank you. So, hello so much joining me today. I'm so excited to ask you about your podcast. So to get started, I would love if you could just give a bit of background into yourself and your experiences that ultimately led you. So starting your podcast Know. So true. Yeah. Thank you so much, Rosie. I was so honored to hear that you wanted me on a podcast, especially, 'cause I, we were talking about this earlier. There's always so much more that you can be doing as a podcast host and producer and creator. And one of the things that they're like, oh, like, go on other podcasts, like, you need to be having your organic audience, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And for me that's something that felt like so, so far away. So I really appreciate, I, I feel very excited to be on it. But yeah, I am Eric. I am 27 years old and I live in la. And I have a podcast that was called A No. So True and is now gonna be called something different and to be so for real and honest, it's because of branding and because it's a little too close to Caleb Heron's. So True podcast. And he's also the gay who talks and is a comedian and has a huge podcast. Mm-hmm. So it's, it kind of in my, I had to be kind of convinced in some ways, but I think it is in my best interest to name it something different, which I can get into. But I've had this podcast since. Last summer, summer of 2024, but it's felt like much longer. It's something that I feel like I've journaled about, and I don't know if manifested is the right word, but something that I really wanted deep down for, I think a very long time. I started out my career after college as a comedy writer and performer. That's why I moved out to la. And one of the things that I, one of the like, why's behind it, and what I really ultimately thought I wanted from it was to be able to speak to an audience and to be able to speak to people on a deeper level through, you know, having a platform or, having some kind of base, but ultimately I decided and discovered that that career path wasn't fulfilling in the way that I wanted it to be. And that that was actually a very painful process, but. Coming out of that and trying different jobs and doing other things and putting on a very much like Nike just to do it hat made me think like, okay, you know, I could wait to build a platform through being a performer or creative, whatever that means. And then get into, you know, having my own show and really talking about people and their lives and their trajectories and what is like figuring out life, especially in this very hard time both in the world and like in your twenties. Or I could just do that now and it won't be, you know, a huge audience. It'll primarily be starting out at just my friends, but I kind of just want to do that, you know, especially if. Especially at the climate change, just all of a sudden just abrupts and, and it's the world implodes that I want to be able to have done it. So that's what brought me to the podcast. And then, and then in terms of like what it was about, I feel like I wanted something that met, you know, some of that performing and comedy and just fun. You know, people need fun and people want to be entertained with deeper conversations related to mental health. And that was motivated by my very, like deep mental health. I. Journey throughout this whole, like, pivoting out of my passion and what I thought I wanted in my life and trying different things, that was really hard. So it's a combination of those two things because I feel like, you know, everyone, especially in our generation, gen Z, whatever, is like hungry for authenticity. If that is something that's even possible or like I'm going through it, I feel so alone. Like where are, what are other people up to? And I feel like it's helpful to just hear stories about that. So yeah, I, that was a lot, but that's kind of, that's kind of the, the basis of how it started. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. Definitely. And. No. Yeah, I don't think it's ever a lot. I think it's never enough. Like when I ask people my background, it's so hard 'cause it's like, oh, can you please sum up your life and your motivations in a couple minutes? It's like, yeah. It's just tough to do. Um. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, um, yeah, it's great to hear like the background for why you started it.. I'd love to know, like you mentioned that you had been thinking about it a couple years mm-hmm. For a couple years., I'm wondering , kind of like the specific moment, if you can remember where you decided, you know, I'm just like actually gonna do this., and , what kinda held you back prior to that? I know you mentioned like, oh, maybe I should have an audience and not mm-hmm. Like, do it while it's small. But yeah, I would love to know more about that. I feel like. I remember a conversation that I had with one of my best friends from college, and this was probably in the winter of 2020, like a few years ago, probably 20, 22 maybe. And I remember, you know, I think the conversation was just about how I feeling. I was feeling very anxious and very at odds with, okay, what does it mean to be pur? To be like not pursuing this thing that I wanted in this childhood dream that I really like took a risk for? And it feels like sacrificed a lot to pursue and. All the confusion. And I was like doing my like Iki guy and journaling all the time and doing like personality quizzes to figure out like what I should do for my job. And one thing that, you know, he mentioned was like, I really feel like what you're best at is when you are sitting down with people and you, you asked really great questions and like almost like a host or, or like a, they didn't use the word journalist, but just like, that's what I feel like you do best. And I'm kind of paraphrasing it. And also it's funny because after the fact he was kind of like, yeah, like I was high out of my mind that entire conversation. I do not remember it. And I'm like, cool, cool, cool. But still they gave me like wisdom and I feel like that ignited something in me. So that's one part of it. And then another part of it is I think that I always like saw myself. At the end of the road, you know, like once I had an audience or once I had a platform, whatever, like being like a, um, maybe like a late night host meets like a Brene Brown kind of gal, you know? And it was just like all about bringing people and ideas together and making something, like creating something that would in some way be helpful for people. Because I think I am in a place in my life where I'm very jaded by a lot of entertainment and being in the entertainment industry definitely was a part of that, especially in the comedy world. So I think there was always like. Even when I was little, I feel like there was a part of me, like when I was in third grade, you know, someone's mom was like, oh, this kid should have his own TV show. You know, like, what does she know? But I feel like there's a part of, there's just a part of me that lights being maybe like a front face or being someone who is, who is able to speak to multiple different type of people. But then when podcasting became a thing, it was like, oh my God, I feel like I learned so much in such a short timeframe at 20, like 5 26. And I just wanna be able to listen to people who ha who, who know. Experienced something similar and it was something to share. So I feel like there kind of was a singular moment, but then also it was just like a buildup. And then when I discovered in the library, shout out to the Octavia lab, they had this like beautiful podcasting studio just at the public library. And that was right next to where I taught at. And I was just very curious about it. So I checked it out and I was just like, oh, there's actually, you know, nothing standing in my way. There's, and or in other words, there's not really any excuse to not do it anymore. You know, it's not like an equipment or a cost thing, it's just, you know, can I do it? So I made the decision to. Record some episodes like in March. So probably like five months before, like a year ago and five months before the podcast actually launched. But I really wanted practice and I really wanted to just interview people and to figure out more of what it actually was before doing it. So I guess there were a few moments to answer your question. Okay. That's super helpful to know. And it's really, it's really nice to hear you talk about like the process of actually starting a podcast., it's so interesting how hearing how different people approach it, um, for sure. And I saw that you had like, it seemed like you had interviewed people before you actually like launched. Mm-hmm. Which was very cool to me. Like you did a bit of like, you know, r and d kind of practice. Yes. Um, whereas. Yeah, like my approach was quite random. But then looking back, the randomness, it's almost like I wasn't thinking about it so I didn't have time to stress and like feel that immense self-doubt that is definitely there. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes. So it's just interesting to hear about that., I did wanna ask one question, which is, how have experiences, prior to the podcast,, like things that haven't worked out? Mm-hmm. Like what, what, which of those experiences taught you the most and what have they taught you? I think that I was definitely someone who did not subscribe to, like, throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. I felt very like, directionally focused, , coming out of college because I think to be an actor, to be a writer, you really have to, and I still think that, that like. Whatever it means to you, you kind of have to go all in and it ha the process of it has to be what it's about for you and not just the, like what part did you get or did you get a set on, you know, this specific stage or did you get to work with this specific type of specific person? When I moved out here, I was just so, I feel like hyper-focused tunnel vision on the dream and I. I actually got like a pretty solid win from it, and I like achieved something that I wanted to, which was, I got signed by, , a manager. I like won this writing competition. It was in deadline, which it's actually not that like a a, a lot of things get put in deadline, but at the, that actually opened doors for me and then managers were starting to reach out to me, which was for me, like in a very, , unpredictable industry for me was one marker of like, okay, this is starting to work. Like this is, this is what I'm working towards. Like, you write the script or you get the parts so that you can get the manager or the agent and then they're gonna like help open your, the, your career and change your life. And obviously cut to the chase. That didn't happen. I had, , a manager offer and then like that helped leverage another one through personal connections. And I was just very indecisive. Both options were great. I was like going like genuinely crazy and I struggled with anxiety and depression before, but I would say that this was like the biggest episode and the biggest struggle where it really, where I really had to confront it. And , that indecision that led to anxiety was really debilitating. I was losing sleep, like I wasn't meeting my physical needs. I was getting just very, very unwell, honestly. And I think that one outcome from that was I really what I was telling myself, I was being hard on myself, being like, this is like the best thing that could have possibly happened. So why am I not happy? Like, why is this not, why is this hard in the first place? And I think there are a lot of reasons for that. But one, I. One reason from it that I became aware of actually through a conversation with my sister is like, maybe it's because this isn't actually what I want, or this isn't actually what I, everything that I thought that I wanted, it's not, you know, now that I, now that I got this kind of success or this win, it's like, now what? You know, I feel like looking back on it in retrospect, I really just wanted like success from it. And I wanted those outcomes of like, okay, I want like a, like a straightaway ticket or a shortcut to, you know, being a series regular on a comedy show or, , to be like a staff writer in a, in a writer's room. And I wanted to surpass like what the years and years that it takes a lot of people to be able to get to that position. And so I thought that this was going to be my way of, of. It happening. And through that whole process that lasted, I don't know, like a few months I would say, where it was hard to function. I was just like, okay, like I need to try something different. And a lot of that was through therapy. A lot of it was just me like having a lot of, , resistance to that idea. So then w when I ultimately accepted that like, this isn't working, or if I really wanted to be doing this, I would be doing this. Or. Or, or, or that kind of thing. Then I, then it opened the door for me to try other things that I wanted to do or really, really ask myself like, what are my values? Who am I, what's important to me? What fulfills me?'cause it's not this the way that I thought it was going to be. And so that kind of opened the door to, to the podcast ultimately. And, but, but even then, it wasn't so clear, like going into 2024, I think I really set the intention that this is something that I wanted to try. Like by the end of the year, I wanted to try doing this. I wanted to, even if it was something small, like doing a practice interview or doing kind of like the, the r and d aspect of it, I just want to be able to have done it. Like, that's how I'm gonna get my answers. That's how I'm going to get myself awareness. It's not just by thinking about it, it's by actually doing it. So, yeah, at that time I became a teacher. And I didn't think I wanted to be a teacher for the long term, but I was like, I felt very, like, deeply isolated from people was one of the main outtakes from this whole period. And I was like, I will do anything to just be around people to, I guess, be in service to people. Like that is something that matters to me and, , and is ultimately why I wanted to be in this industry to like, go full, to come around and to to, to then provide something for other people., but yeah, I think that that's, that's one of the main takeaways from it. Yeah. Super helpful to hear all of that., definitely. Find some of that very relatable, especially in terms of like, I thought I wanted this thing, I have it, I'm unhappy. Why? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's so annoying to me, like now. Yeah. Now to go back to the drawing board, and I've seen from looking at your,, Instagram for the podcasts and stuff that you talk about, like, oh, one of the things you wanna do with this podcast is, touch on the challenges of your twenties. Mm-hmm. And how it's so like, confusing and there's all these things that we're dealing with as we figure out like who we are and what we want., and it's just such an important topic. So I would say like, yeah, like you definitely are. Providing value, and it's good to keep in mind and it's good to hear from other people sometimes, you know? Mm-hmm. When you're just out there like doing a lot and you're like, is this even like, it's like also like by you deciding to go for something, I just feel compelled to hype you up right now for some reason. Thank you, Rosie. I'll take it. But, when you go for something and you just, like you said, like, oh, I'm not gonna get anywhere by thinking about it. I, I need to take action, and then I'll know and I'll have clarity. It's like when you do that, you inspire people. Like even if it's like one person to, to do something similar because you're, you're leading by example. Like, you're like, I'm gonna do something uncomfortable, whatever, so. Mm-hmm. Kudos. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I think that I, I think so many things, like something that I've learned, just so many things, you know, help you get to the next thing or help you learn something that it's, it's all part of it as something that I, I was resistant to thinking about before, and now I'm very much am a believer in, and I feel like one of those things that's exactly what you're saying, is just I feel, I feel very grateful to be around creative people who are chasing what it, what that thing is, and then maybe like switching it up and maybe it doesn't work out. But I think that that was actually very quintess wait, very essential to, to the process. And yeah, I mean, I, I thank you for saying that. Yeah. I really appreciate it.'cause I just wish, at that time I really just wished that there was more immediate access to stories of like. It's actually totally okay to be quote unquote wrong about what you thought that you wanted. And it can also be really scary and very intimidating and, , depressing honestly, to have to kind of rebrand or to like change. For me, it was like everything that I thought I knew about myself because I was so, so career focused. And I would say I am still very career focused, but less so. So, yeah. And even with what you're doing too, like to be able to hear about people's passion projects and, and hustles, and you said that you're kind of, you know, you've always been like a side hustle kind of person. I think that that's something that, you know, like a lot of people, like I went to, uh, I, Ivy League, like, and so many people are very just like hesitant to do something if they're not dedicating their entire life to it or if they're not being successful with it. But I think, and maybe part of it is now living in LA and like, no one fucking works here, you know, but no one has a job, you know, that kind of stereotype. But I think it's very cool when, when people are multi hyphen, it's not just in the, oh, you're like a writer, performer, comedian, but like people who have like a day job that's totally different than what their. Podcast is on, or what their art is about. And somehow though, that that's all like part of it though. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Like, I literally am obsessed with, um, like people who don't subscribe to labels. Mm-hmm. I think it's just, it's very comforting to like be able to share what you do, and , like who you are in that way by what you do, but like, I really just love when people are like, no, I'm not doing that. Like, I actually like, am very multifaceted and, , sometimes like, it's like the day job and the creative side hustle. It's like, it's not like, . Either or mm-hmm. Has more weight. And even they can be completely different. Mm-hmm. But like, all of those things feed into who that person is, and I just love showcasing that. Like you said, like hopefully spreading visibility on what's possible so that more people see examples of like what they can do., 'cause that definitely helps, I think. Mm-hmm. But sometimes when, , you're a small podcast, it's hard to, personally, it's hard for me to be like, oh, I'm like helping people with this. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I'm just like, I mean, I know I'm helping myself. Like it's, it's valuable. It's fulfilling to me. But, , sometimes it's like hard to be like, yeah, this is my mission statement.. You know? Definitely. Yeah. I feel that. I think that. I, yeah, I, I, I, I go through this, , like mental kind of, , cycle. A lot of like, wait, this isn't actually like doing anything though. But then it's like reminding myself. And I, I would imagine that the same case for you, like, well, one, in helping yourself and it being like very informative or like maybe like even inspirational for yourself. Like inherently that's going to be, even if it's just one or two people, which is probably more than that. Like that is that, that means something. And I also think too, like the podcasting process, I feel like unveils a lot of, a lot of sides of me that I feel like, I'm like, oh yeah, you know, I, I guess who I am creatively is I see parts of who I am outside of that come into it. IE like. Overlooking like, you know, the positive and focusing on the negative is something that I just do. And I think that, that in podcasting, it's like, there are so many opportunities to do that. And an example of this is like, I have to remind myself that people have reached out and do reach out, and they're like, yo, like, okay, not yo, but like, hey, like this, honestly, like really, like I feel that so hard. Like this is very relatable and like, thank you for, you know, even talking about this, I'm happy that this exists. Like those things for me can be easy to look past., but that's just evidence that you know that it is doing something. Or like, even if it's someone who's just like your friend, you know, who just, and yeah, I think it's easy. I, I often go into the bucket of like looking at the numbers and looking at the metrics and I. That's not being good enough. But then, you know, I, and my partner helps kind of ground me a lot in this too. But you know, he's just like, okay, like if you, if I think it's a bigger win that someone like sent you this lengthy text message or voice message about how they're very grateful and it helped make them think kind of differently than, you know, if you get an extra like hundred some listeners. And I think that that's true and I feel like that's kind of what I need to hold on to at least in this more beginning stages of being a small podcast. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I love how you said that, podcasting, unveils, , these things about myself.'cause it's so true. Like, I do feel like, like starting a business, starting a podcast. Mm-hmm. Like. It's not even about a thing, it's about who you become in the process. Mm-hmm. Like, not to sound cheesy, but like true, it's such a like mechanism for growth and development because you're pushing yourself to do something you've never done., there's all these different aspects of it. You have to decide which to focus on. Like, it's just such a thing. Um mm-hmm. And yeah, on the thing, like when you were just sharing like, oh, people have, , sent those messages, like, that's phenomenal. Like yeah. That is like absolutely such a good feeling. And I would agree it's, it's more valuable, , to like spend some time thinking about that than the numbers. But I would also agree that I don't necessarily do that either. Like mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's easy to wanna check that you're. It's like, oh, I, I put effort in. What's the outcome? Like, how can I measure that outcome? That's the tricky part with podcasting, , for sure. Mm-hmm. And uh, even as you were saying that, I was like thinking in my head, I was like, oh, I don't think like people really reach out about my podcast, but it's like, wait, they have, I just, once you sleep, not like, yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, it's fascinating. But yeah, to like snowball off of that., what are some, what are some challenges that you face since like starting the po I think that I mentally prepared myself for it to not, you know, blast off and to have like the call her daddy effect of like, I think after a few episodes, you know, because it is true, you know, what everyone says is true. Like, everyone has a podcast, it's so saturated, blah, blah, blah. And that honestly, like. Sometimes I, I wish I just even started earlier because that only became more true. You know? And, but that even an idea like that was what was preventing me. Like, oh, everyone has a podcast. It's not something they wanna do. Mm-hmm. Um, but there have been a lot of challenges with it, that have helped me grow. I often ask myself, even though it's the beginning, because I'm putting so much of myself in it, you know, similar to you, like, how do I know that this is even what I want? Because, especially 'cause I'm like, now I know what it's like, I've. I've put my whole self into something that I later discovered was not what I wanted, and I really don't want that to be the case with this podcast, or I don't wanna be. So it's kind of like I need to see it through, but also I need to be intentional about it. But the one thing that I ask myself is like, okay, am I still learning? Like am I still growing? And if that's the case, then I'll continue to do this. And I definitely feel like I am., even if it's just like small things on the day to day, I would say that the main challenges of it that I've literally had to talk to my therapist about quite often, and I think it's been a good growing experience, is a little bit of the social media thing and kind of what we're talking about in terms of feeling like it's not getting traction in that there isn't an audience or that there isn't enough people, , listening or caring or benefiting or whatever. I think that, I think. Social media like Instagram now compared to like five years ago is, you know, it's like we, we, we all know, like it's way more algorithmic, it's way less personal., you ju it's just all about like, viral, viral, vir viral content. And so with that, like the stuff that feels more genuine or the stuff that feels a little bit more like, Hey, like I'm on my pod, like, hey friends, like look at my podcast and I like designed this thing and I did it in Canva and I, but da da da da da da. That stuff gets way less traction than it would've before, I think. So I think that could, it's, it's like every time I would release an episode, with the exception of a few, I would have to mentally prepare myself. Like I would feel defeated most of the time. At least, at least for half of the episodes. And if there was a dip, I would be like, crushed and I'd, I'd be thinking like, oh my God, this is a sign that it's not working. Or people don't ultimately wanna listen to it, or all these things, all this like negative self-talk. Right? So I think that that has been the biggest challenge of like, okay, I'm doing this because I want to be in conversation with people. And so if people aren't listening to it or if it's be, if it's flopping on Instagram or if it's flopping and you know the numbers are flopping, then like then. What, what then what am I doing? And that's when I have to be like, okay, if I'm taking something from it, if I'm learning, if I'm growing from it and I'm still excited about it, then it's something that I'll continue doing. And seeing it as like there are ebbs and flows. They're, it, those are necessary to be able to get like sustainable long-term growth., before I was a lot more directionally focused or singularly. And it's like if there's a dip, whatever that means, that means that I'm like screwed. But I think that that's the kind of thinking that makes quitters quit early. So I don't wanna subscribe to that too much. Yeah. Yeah. That is super relatable feeling of like. Dread or like, what am I even doing? Like who's listening? Mm-hmm. This is embarrassing. Yes, yes. Like, oh my God. Because it does, it's, it can feel very, very embarrassing, honestly. Yeah. It's just like, and, and, and I've been on the other side where I've been judgmental frankly, of like, oh, you're doing your like little like YouTube videos that aren't getting any views. Like, ugh, cringe. But that's another thing that I've had to learn in this process is like, actually I'm not helping even myself when I'm thinking that being on the other side. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's a good exercise of being judge, less judgmental, both to myself and to other people. It doesn't really, it doesn't really do anything. Yes, no, totally. I agree., I like, yeah, last year when I started business, , and it was like really painful and a lot of that. Mm. Was because I was judging myself for not having, um, like, you know, made money yet, or made a better plan or mm-hmm. Acted smarter or made better choices. That landed me in the precarious situation I was in, and it was just constant, , like barrage of like, you should have done this, you should have done this, obviously. Like, and it was just like, honestly it was really painful., but it was really important for me to go through that because, um, I didn't realize like how, how much of a hindrance it is to be judging myself and others. Mm-hmm. I think they're so intertwined. I think, yeah. When I judge, like when I judge others, I'm actually, I. Being like, that'd be embarrassing for me personally. Mm-hmm. Like, that's like I would judge myself if I did that. So it's like undoing that. Like I would judge myself if I did that or that or that or that. It's like undoing that is really helpful., and yeah, I feel like that's kind of what last year was beginning that for me. And it sometimes it just like takes getting, putting yourself out there doing something that it's uncomfortable, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's, it's super interesting. It's an interesting experience and I think having like the positive self-talk, , and belief in yourself, like could take us a really long way. Like imagine like if I'm like, you know what I'm doing, this is important, it's important to me, it's valuable. What if I was able to do that for years? Like what would that look like? Like I wanna see what that looks like, you know? Definitely. So that's what keeps me motivated. Definitely. And I feel like that process is, it's similar to what you were talking about, like you really do have to count the wins. And I know that's like, obviously so cliche, but I think that counting the losses has really like served me in a lot of domains in my life and has made me probably achieve, you know, that's probably what's been helpful in that. But I think that like in this game and like starting something out, which, you know, like coming out of college, it can be really easy to get through life. Not starting something, you know, and that's part of the hesitation I feel like that keeps so many people from actually doing it is like beginning from the ground up. From ground zero. And that inevitably is very painful.. And that's where having like an objective person, like a partner or a friend or whatever who can be like, I had no idea you were feeling this way. Or it really doesn't seem like you're like, like, yeah, you just. Have X, whatever. But like you also have, let's say like for, we have like what, 500 Instagram followers, and that's not that much, you know? But then, but that's not nothing. That's actually not that little either. You know, like, and having someone, my partner's just like, oh, I'm just like, God, this fucking post got like less than a hundred likes, like blah, blah, blah. And he is like, our standards I think are just very different. And so, and so recognizing that there is, at least, there is a different way to look at it. And it's probably not the case that everyone is looking at you and being like, you're stupid and you're a loser is good because, and then it also just goes back to that thing of like, people can talk a big game and people can say whatever, but only the people who are doing it can really, really speak to the experience and. Before this experience and kind of graduating from college, I think I made a lot of like decisions being like, well, I can do that, or they can do it, I can do it. Instead of like really actually doing it and, and experiencing it and putting like my money where my mouth was. Yeah. Yeah. That's relatable for sure. I can't agree more, emphasize enough, yeah, like anyone who's trying anything. It's like, hell yeah. Like, yes, go for it. You know, like that's the kind of energy that I want to promote. A hundred percent. Yeah., but I also would love to ask you about, like, from the conversations you've had on your podcast so far. Mm-hmm., what have you like learned from those conversations? Like, I know for me personally,, it's been interesting interviewing a range of guests Yeah. And seeing how I feel after like, those interviews mm-hmm. Like conversations, like a lot of these people, , I don't personally know before I interview them. Mm-hmm. And it's just really interesting to see like how the conversation goes and how it feels. And I'm, I'm kind of like writing the like, uh, direction of where I wanna take this as I go. Yeah. So I'm wondering how it's been for you, like picking guests and chatting with 'em and. If there's any, any experience in particular that has like stood out. Yeah, there have been a lot., so I try, I'll try to not get into all of them, but I think ultimately that's one of the main reasons why I wanted to do a podcast is in this incoming out of entertainment and 'cause like, you know, like ev people saying like, no TV is good, no movies are good, dah dah, dah, dah, dah. I think there's some truth to that and being like, what I really loved about TV and movies and what I really wanted to do and go. And going into it was like thinking about like the shows like Glee for example, when I was watching in middle school and how those left like a real impact on how, you know, like growing up as closeted and, and as Asian.'cause there actually are, I mean the Asian representation in that show isn't fantastic, but it doesn't exist. Like that's what I wanted to do. I really wanted to, you know, make people feel some level of like hope or to feel, , to feel seen, you know, and I really realized coming out of the industry capital I industry that in a lot of, the lot of the times that I feel that way, like is in direct conversations. And I think it's really easy to forget that, whether it's with a really close friend or even a stranger. Like those are the things that feel inspiring to me. And like give you little kernels for like how you can go about your life or change your life, or even if it's a tip, or even if it's like, wow, like they tried that. Or even if it's like a wreck. For a restaurant or something, and then you discover like, wow, like this is my, this is something that was really valuable to my life. And so, but, but I also feel like conversations can so easily be forgotten about. And so that's why I feel like going back to those episodes or any of the episodes that I, you know, spoke with someone and taking out even more parts of the conversation than I even that first time that I had the conversation, that's where it gets really exciting for me. And I think I can like point to any one individual episode and be like, yeah, like I learned something from that, or I took something from that., one example could be, you know, I interviewed like a veteran teacher who's just like a total badass. She's such, she's like. She's so, so good at her job, and she's also just like really funny and someone who I consider a very, very close friend. And just like one small thing that she always, always, always preaches in her classroom is, , conscientiousness and focusing on the things that you can control, even if it's the small things, you know, like even though there's, the world can feel very daunting and there's, especially now like in the political landscape, like at the end of the day, the only thing that you can do is really focus on what you can control. Like maybe you're not gonna be able to change the world today, but did you bring your planner? Did you, you know, make your bed? Did you do these things? It's about like small little steps that you do every single day over the long term. And that's something that it's like. That idea is something that I return to all the time. Or, you know, like I interviewed a psychologist, life coach and thinking about how like, oh, like you're anxious, probably don't go on your like phone or, or, um, like, take time to really go like internal and to be in your body instead of just like, have all these external stimuli or whatever. Like, I think that those, every single episode I, I take something from, and that was what was missing from like, you know, spending days and months and years on a script that maybe doesn't even get looked at, let alone made of like, wait, the, the learning or the inform, the informing to myself and to other people just isn't happening right now. So. Those are some things that I took away from the actual process., and that's why I really wanted to interview guests from different backgrounds because when I was thinking about this, like there was a version of this podcast that was specifically just talking about talking to Asian creatives, which a majority of my guests actually are Asian creatives. But then it's like the teacher that I had wouldn't have been able to have been on it as a black woman who's not necessarily a creative, she's a teacher., she's a creative teacher. But yeah, and so I think that that's a little bit of the trade off that I made and am experiencing the wrath of is like. Because it's not hyper specified and it's, you know, it was called No, so True. And it's episode on like getting real on how to deal with Quarter Life. It's not an episode on like, it's not like, you know, there's, there are a podcast called like literally Gay Asians or um, like specifically for queer people. Specifically for Asian people. Like this is that, but there, I wanted room for expanding and I guess I can say that in talking with a lot of different people, that goal was achieved in the first season of this podcast. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We love, uh, achievable goals for sure. Yeah, for sure. Reach. Um, yes, I can definitely. Again, relate to that. I think I was like, initially like, oh, maybe I should do like women entrepreneurship. Mm. That was like, actually, like there's a ton of people out there with things that I am obsessed with and wanna learn about, and I don't really wanna feel limited just because it might help me niche down and like experience explosive growth. Like, I was like, mm-hmm. Uh, that's just not, yeah. Like, that's not what I wanna do., yeah, it's just, it's just interesting to approach it from that pure standpoint of like, okay, , that authentic place. I think a, I've like come up against that a lot. Like, it's almost like something to be protected, like the authenticity of what you're trying to do. Like, is this really like what I wanna do with this thing? Definitely in the, in the world of oversaturated podcasts and how can I stand out and like, who's your target audience? I remember. When I was trying to like monetize this last year, I was like asking everyone for advice, which by the way, don't recommend. Um, I feel that I've done that. Yeah. Um, it's a great way to like crowd your brain with a lot of noise. Um, yeah. And kind of like tune out your own internal voice. But, , like people were saying, like, you know, who's your listener? Like, which I think is like valid to think about, but, who's like your target audience? And I was just like trying to like, find them and I was just like, it's, it's still just me. Mm-hmm. Like, it's just what I think at the moment. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's okay. But before I veer off on, , more of. My journey.. I wanted to also ask, , like, I wanna, I wanna know what it's like to manage your podcast. Like, how did you, like how many things are you doing right now? Like, I saw the one tree, like we're on YouTube. It's amazing., and I just, I really wanna shed light on everything that's involved and everything that you manage and how you balance it and how you like, support it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I, because I guess I don't really get to talk about this that much, so thank you. And I also want to hear a little bit about what you've kind of learned through this pro. I feel like everything that you're saying, I'm like, yes, absolutely. I do the thing. I fall into that trap of asking a lot of people for their advice and getting a lot of conflicting answers, even though, like, I think that I'm very like minded to other people and. Yada, yada, yada. Like that is one thing that I really have had to control because I fall into the category of, or I fall into that trap of like getting, of understanding or doing things because I think it's like what I should be doing. Totally do that and you kind of can't do that. Um, um, you can do a little bit of that, but, uh, the process is fun and very time consuming. And surprisingly, it's like what I think about the most, like from waking up to falling asleep, I'm always asking myself like, ooh, like, how can, like how is this inspiring me in my podcast? How's, like, it is kind of, it is my baby in this way, it's my passion project in this way. I feel like if I didn't have it, life would be a lot more boring. And, but it also makes me think like I'm putting a lot of my energy into this, my mental energy, even just my thoughts. I'm, oh, and I, and, and like now that I'm on the social media grind of it all to try to build some kind of audience, I'm a lot more cognizant of like, when I'm like, oh, that's an idea. Ooh, that could be a TikTok, or that could be a whatever. That could be, that can be a subject that I talk about in the podcast, which is, I think so far, I think it's good. It can be really, really tiring slash if there ever is a day where the podcast ends, I'm like, whoa, you know, now what? Um, that's kind of like, you know, another reason why I like to spread my eggs into different baskets. But, so it's a lot of time just in the background. It's also a lot of time in the process in that I edit myself. I film, I myself. I guess I basically do the whole podcast process myself. And then the past two months, January and February, I actually brought someone on to help with social media because I discovered in myself that I'm not someone who necessarily cares about visuals, branding, whatever. Um, and I've gotten some feedback of like, that could be something that you focus on a little bit more like the studio. Maybe you could make it look a little bit better. Like we, you know, and, and, and one example is like the second to last episode of last season was at my friend, her name's Julia, was at her like house kitchen, really nice apartment. And my friend was like, I like this more actually at Mila's event. She said that. And I'm like, you know. And that's another example where it's like the more that you do it and the more, uh, in this sense the feedback can be helpful where it's like, oh, like that was kind of an accidental, or by, uh, just by necessity decision that we made because I was in New York and LA but oh, people like this more. Okay, I'll follow that a little bit more. So I would say that the majority of the job is editing. And luckily I don't hate the editing process. I thought I was going to, but it's cool sometimes, you know, when I'm interviewing, I don't. I think I know where, what, what is the story and what is the, the meat of the episode. But then in editing, it's almost like I get to relive it again and I get to experience it again. But it can be really tedious too. I probably, for each episode, I've spent anywhere between like four and like. 20, maybe 15 hours on it. Um, but I've also just had to learn to get a lot better at it. Like in the beginning it was a lot, and then it's like if there's one equipment malfunction, then you're screwed and you need to like, yeah, it adds a lot more time. So that's another thing I learned in this process is like the more preparation that you can do before, even though it feels a lot less natural, the better., and then the other huge amount of time is on social media. I'm, like I said, like. Very often thinking about social media. And my current approach is to do what I can to just build some kind of audience, even if it's seemingly super unrelated to the actual podcast. And then like phase two, whenever that'll be, is a little bit like slowly transitioning people like, Hey, by the way, I have this. Um, and hopefully there will be some kind of ratio. Whereas before I was just kind of like, I need to open, close, advertise, promote, podcast, podcast, podcast. But the truth of the matter is people don't want that. People don't want podcasts. They want brain rot and or something silly and dumb or engaging. And then maybe once you capture them, then they'll do the thing. That's another, that's a huge thing I learned throughout this whole process is like not leading with the, even though it might feel more genuine to you, like the, and meaningful to you, like meeting people where they're at and grabbing their attention. Which is annoying, but I think kind of real. Um, and so, but other, and so like I said, like I had someone kind of helping with like the branding and the visuals and like sometimes posting, but at the end of the day, at least in this beginning stages still, I do think that I am, it's not gonna happen if I don't do it. And it can, I probably put like 15 to sometime. So anywhere between like 10 and 20 hours a week, it feels like a mid time job. So yeah, that's kind of what it looks like behind the scenes. And I didn't know that going into it. I think that how I frame it now is like the, the, the recording it, the interviewing people is like. The reward and the putting it out there and editing and social media and all of that is like the building blocks to get to the reward. Whereas before I thought I was just kinda like, I'm gonna interview one person, then the next interview per, and then the next interview, then the next interview, and now it's like, no, actually, like reframing it I think has been good for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that point of view. I hadn't even thought about it like that, but it's so true. I can tell you like, because like when I was starting out, it's just interesting to think about like who I interviewed, like, and. How, I think what I'm trying to say is like there were people I ended up interviewing that I was shocked that I was able to interview them. Mm. And I think that like, through building consistency and a bit of rapport and the process, 'cause a lot of podcasts don't make it that far. Yeah. Because people quit because longer, um, it's not an immediate gratification side hustle, I will say. Mm-hmm. Um, so, uh, like looking at it through the lens of like. I'm gonna put in the work, I'm gonna build this, and then I just get to keep having these like, rewarding, fulfilling conversations and they're going to just get better and better and better. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's like that slow, that slow growth, um, yeah, it's a great perspective for sure. And it's great that you're sharing here, like, I'm really grateful you are, like the realities of producing a podcast because it is a thing., for sure. Wow. Yeah, and I think it's also awesome that, , you're doing all this stuff to begin with and one day, you know, if you decide you can outsource things as it works out and like, then you'll know exactly what you want because you used to do it all yourself, you know? So that's. To be conscious of time., I would love to wrap up by asking you if you have guidance to acquiring. Um, it just doesn't feel like enough to say like, podcast host, but like anyone who maybe like, feels like, how do I put this? Like, I almost wanna loop in.'cause like you have the history with like, comedy writing as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So like anyone who's like, aspiring to creative or creative and aspiring creative, build an audience, that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Um, kind of like form their, , voice in the world, attract, their people. What would you say to 'em? Hmm. I can think of one. I want to think of, I, I just wanna make this not so basic and cliche. Obviously the main one is just to do it. I don't think that I need to like, and throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Like you cannot know until you do it. But I would probably say that my other thing is like, that could be more additive or unique is if you're not liking or finding a way to like the process, you're probably not gonna like it once. It's just because it's more successful. Like, I feel like, I think at the end of the day with this podcast, even though it's a lot of 'em, I'm kind of doing a lot of it myself. I'm like, it's cool. Like, it feels kind of like having a business and, and you get to, that's what I wanted creatively. I wanted to. Do more and, and to, you know, like a lot of people want to be a multihyphenate creative. They want to like write and direct and, but it feels cool and as a podcaster in a way, to kind of do that, to kind of also be the director, to be the producer, to be the marketer, you know? And I think that there's something very empowering about it. There's a lot of responsibility placed on you, of course, but if. It's exciting. Like it's not gonna happen if you're not there and if you're not doing it. And so I think if I didn't like this process though, I think that it doesn't matter like how many followers it has or how many big the audience is, like, I don't think it would be sustainable at all. So I think that knowing, finding a way to like the building blocks not all of it, or finding a way to make it like bearable or you can justify it by being like, this is part of the whole thing. That's kind of what I had to do with social media's. Like this is part of it. To make the wheel turn like that I think is important. Um, yeah, I would say that that's the main, main thing. I'm curious to know what you've learned now that you're kind of getting back into it. After the break. Oh, thank you for asking me. Oh, of course. I, I wanna know, um, what I've learned after I'm getting back into it., I feel like, I just want to care. I wanna protect me caring about this, so whatever that means. And right now I'm kind of off Instagram. When I do a new episode, I'll share it there. Mm-hmm. Just 'cause I, I do have like a slight following. Mm-hmm. Um, and I used to post there all the time, but I just am like, I, like I'm in this, this, uh, era of like, I literally like, thank you to everyone who's listening. If you, yes, thank you. But like, I, I literally do not care. What other people have to say or anyone else's opinions. I literally only care about if I care about anything I'm doing here. And like that is just necessary for me, given the year that I had where I was just putting everyone. I swear everyone's voice is above my own. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, I'm just like figuring out, like, I, I just wanna be like, be open to shutting this down, honestly. Like, I wanna be like open to evaluating it honestly and objectively. Hmm. Um, and I think I've thought about like leaving it, um, many, many times. Mm-hmm. And I keep coming back to the point where it's like, it's like, what could make you keep doing this?'cause you could keep having conversations with people that like, I, I swear to God, I'm like. Bouncing off the walls after. It's kind of a lot. It's like a lot, but I'm like, okay, that's a good sign. Mm-hmm. Like, it's amazing that you can have conversations with people that are inspiring you and even if you don't really know, like where that's taking you. Mm-hmm. That's what the thing is. Like, I, I don't know where this is taking me. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't have a master plan. Mm-hmm. Like I have a ton of other interests. This is not my full-time thing. Yeah. I don't actually see it being my full-time thing ever. Mm-hmm. Um, does that mean I should just quit?'cause I probably won't end up being like a call her daddy, like, no. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Doesn't have to be so black and white. Mm-hmm. So I'm just, I'm just trying to like. Just like let it be like, I don't really know what's going on, but like, whatever, I'm still having a good time. So if I can do that, then maybe I'll just keep going. Yeah, I think that that's great and I think that's a good reminder even, even for me of just like, really, like your opinion is what matters the most and it's your thing, so it should be fulfilling and meaningful to you. And I think that that's also what, like what you just voice of like at, at, at the end of the day, I still kind of don't know and it's, I just doing what's like, I, what I feel like a lot of those successful with huge, you know, careers, whatever, I feel like they're saying the same thing too, you know? Mm-hmm. So yeah, I feel like that's very, um, even like helpful for me to hear'cause you're farther along in this process than I'm, and so I think there's a lot to to, to glean from that. Yeah. I would just say like. Yeah, like whatever you can do to do it for longer. Like think about it like that, you know? Definitely. Definitely. Um, but this was so lovely. Yeah. I had a great time. Thank you. I know I rambled. I knew I was going to. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your experience. I'm really excited to share, um, yeah, your story with my listeners. Thanks. Yeah. And you know, we'll be back for season two, like bigger, better than ever. I'm very, very excited. So if anyone wants to give a listen, we can be a little sister podcast or whatever. Um, yeah. Amazing.