Raised on the Farm

44:Jake, from Farm Bureau--Agriculture through a Legal Lens with Jake Parker

• Chad, Marlowe, & Marisa • Episode 44

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We sit down with Jake Parker of the North Carolina Farm Bureau to trace how a career in politics and appellate law turns into real protection for farmers. Along the way, we break down how ag litigation works, why unified partnerships matter, and what it takes for farmers to keep their freedom to operate. 



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Questions? Email us at raisedonthefarmpodcast@gmail.com 

Welcome And Good News Roundup

Marisa

Hi, and welcome back to another episode of Raids on the Farm Podcast where everything is on the table.

Chad

All right. Welcome to Raids on the Farm Podcast, everybody. It's good to be back. We got a uh I don't I would call him a special guest. I don't know all of our guests are special, but uh Jake Parker from uh the North Carolina Farm Bureau with us today, and um looking forward to having a good conversation. Um tell me something good, Jake. What's what's good today in Jake's world?

SPEAKER_02

Uh what's good today is the school year is about to end for my daughters. I have a 13-year-old and an 11-year-old, and uh they are wrapping up the school year. So we're we're starting to get ready for summer. The good news in that is I I don't have to take my middle schooler to um to school at seven something in the morning, so I I get a little bit more time to ease into my morning, so that's nice. And if you know me, I'm not a morning person, so that that that's why it's good. Yeah.

Chad

How about you, Marissa? What's good in in your world today?

Marisa

Um I just celebrated eight years of marriage with uh with Garrett yesterday, so that was that's not good.

Chad

That's awesome. Happy anniversary. Yeah, what about you, Chad? Yeah, well, my daughter's graduating high school this year, and uh we have been to multiple awards ceremonies um and graduation ceremonies, and uh it's bittersweet, uh, but she's ready for a new challenge and um I'm looking forward to what the future holds for her. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Cool deal. Well, Jake,

Jake Parker’s Path To Farm Bureau

Chad

let's hear about you, buddy. I I want to know um I want to know who Jake Parker is. Maybe start from from your childhood from the Parker household and how you grew up, and and let's get going. Sure.

SPEAKER_02

Uh so I grew up in, believe it or not, Chapel Hill, um, which always gets a rise out of people in the agriculture. Most of them are uh state fans that always kind of look at you funny, but um it was a great place to grow up. Uh we weren't in Chapel of Proper, we were in the southern part of Orange County heading towards Chatham. So it was fairly rural uh at that time. Uh but it was a great place to grow up uh and have good experiences there. Uh went to Appalachian State for my undergrad degree uh and was a political science major. I uh then decided I wanted to take over the world and went to work on Capitol Hill for uh former Congressman Bob Etheridge and did that for about four years and then came back to Raleigh or back to North Carolina and um worked in Bob's district office for about a year, but missed the policy part of Washington, D.C. But didn't necessarily miss Washington. I had I had a great experience there, but um you know it wasn't where I wanted to end up long term in life. So uh uh I did that for about a year, and then Farm Bureau had an opening for their national legislative director position. If you all know Linda Andrews, she's currently in that role for us. Um, and so I did that role for six years. Uh, and uh while I was doing that, I got married, went to law school, uh, did that at night for four years. Um, and uh my my wife and I, she was a she actually went to NC State, she got a um MPA degree at the same time, and we kind of figured out after law school was over, we kind of reintroduced ourselves to each other because we didn't see much of each other for about four years while I was in law school. Um but um yeah, so from there I ended up clerking for two years at the North Carolina Supreme Court. I had a great opportunity. Former uh now well he was an associate justice of the court at the time, but uh former Chief Justice Mark Martin, who's now the dean of law school at High Point University, um, and I struck up a relationship through law school, and he offered me the opportunity to be one of his law clerks. And so I I took the significant pay cut and went into state service for a couple years. Uh, and that was one of the best experiences y'all that you can have as a young lawyer is to get that clerkship. Uh, they don't teach you everything about the law in law school. Uh when you're in the when you're in the Supreme Court chambers, you have time to think, you have time to read, you have time to write about North Carolina law. And um that was a really valuable experience. Um, then after that, I I clerked for one additional year at the court for Barbara Jackson, who was an associate justice on the Supreme Court for a while. Um, and so uh I got to work with her. She was great uh as a judge as well. Uh and then in 2012, Larry Wooten recruited me back to Farm Bureau. He's a for those of you know him, he's a hard person to say no to. Um he asked me to come back and leave the state legislative program. And I had always promised myself I would not become a state lobbyist because I didn't like at least the impression I had of how the General Assembly functioned, and it was a little bit like it wasn't as formal and nice as Congress, right? So um, not nice, that's not the right word. Uh it wasn't as formal and and dignified as uh working on Capitol Hill. When I got into it, I absolutely loved it. Um, you can you can actually accomplish things in the General Assembly. It's it's Congress is so dysfunctional, I won't take up too much of your time on my soapbox here, but it's it's so hard to pass anything up there nowadays. Um, and and at the General Assembly, you can work on bills and pass things and do some good work, which we did over the next you know six years that I was the lead lobbyist with Paul Sherman, um, passing right to farm revisions and uh tax reform provisions that protected farmers and just a slew of other pieces of legislation. Uh the Property Protection Act, those kind of things were big wins for us. Obviously, Property Protection Act was later uh declared unconstitutional by the Fourth Circuit, which I think is a wrong decision. But um we um we did a lot there and and certainly for the the swine industry in the state, accomplished a lot of things in partnership with the port council. So um that was a great experience. And then in 2018, Julian Philpot, who is our longtime general counsel, retired after 30 years in this seat, and Mr. Wooton offered me the opportunity to uh become Secretary and General Counsel of the North Carolina Farm Bureau, and again, I couldn't tell him no. So uh I've been in this, I've been in this role for eight years now, and um it is a is a uh I know Chad, you and I share a similar faith background, it is a blessing to be a part of an organization that that does so much great work for people who um work in a profession and industry that I never would have imagined being a part of back when I was growing up in Chapel Hill. So um I hope I did okay. That's a that's the quick story. I do a bunch of other stuff too, um, following you know, a middle school, two middle school, well, a middle schooler or a rising middle schooler, and one of them is a pretty accomplished soccer player, so we spent a lot of time traveling around the state standing outside of soccer fields yelling at officials. But um, yeah, it's it's it's been a good ride.

Chad

Yeah. Tell us more about your kids and your and your wife, Stephanie, uh Jay.

SPEAKER_02

So my wife, um believe it or not, is a Baptist pastor. Um, and so wow, she's a preacher uh and also children and families pastor at First Baptist Clayton. Um, and that was her home church. So that's been an interesting experience. Um, transitioning from um, you know, uh she worked for at NC State for a while for Chancellor Randy Woodson. She was a speechwriter, uh, and then went to be a stay-at-home mom for a little while, uh, and then went went into the ministry. And so uh that was not on the uh how do you say that? That was not on the bingo card when we started bathing and got married. Um, but it's an experience being uh the supporter of somebody who um does what she does and the people she cares for. Uh daughters, like I said, middle schooler, uh rising eighth grader, rising sixth grader, and one plays volleyball, the other plays

Family Life, Faith, And Ministry

SPEAKER_02

soccer, and they're both they're both smart like their mom, and um they're they're awesome.

Chad

So they they look like their mom too. That's a good thing, for sure. Uh well tell us I I mean I'm interested in your faith journey, uh Jay. I and I guess your wives too. I mean, uh, you know, obviously becoming a pastor, that's a big decision to but but you guys were you guys were were faithful before you uh become married, or what how's that we both grew up in um churches and my parents were um very very active, hers were very active, so it's always been a part of our lives.

SPEAKER_02

Um something that's important to us and grounds us. Um not something yeah I don't I mean the pastor story is funny. Our friend Ray Starling likes to joke, uh, we have the dark and the light in our house, uh the pastor and the lawyer. Uh but it's it's it's important to what we do uh and um something that grounds us. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Now, how did you and Stephanie meet?

SPEAKER_02

Well wow, we're digging. She doesn't know we're doing this. Um, so she might have to have to clue her in that she may be listening to us. Uh we actually met while I was working for Congressman Etheridge. Her um family was very involved in um local politics there in Johnston County and and knew the Congressman. So I just I'd run into her several times when she was um um you know in and around Riley in and around the district. And uh just one day uh I ran into her and I thought and she was much younger when I we were we were first knowing each other, so it was nothing nothing weird going on. She was uh in high school, was very active in her SGA and those type of things. And so um that's how I first met her, you know. Hey, how you doing, right? That kind of thing. And about it. Saw her about five years later at an event and thought, wow, she's grown up. And um so yeah, so I asked her out, she said yes, eventually, and um the rest of history has been quite a jerk for 20 years, so yeah.

Marisa

Wow.

Chad

That's awesome.

Marisa

Now, how did you you you went to undergrad for poli sci. How did you always have an interest in politics? Like how did that happen?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I first growing up in Chapel Hill, I wanted to play basketball for Dean Smith, um, but I was 5'8, and um I I could shoot the ball, I could play a little defense and pass, but I couldn't do much else. Uh, and then I wanted to become a sports broadcaster, you know, doing the ESPN stuff and those kind of things. And that's what I set off to do when I went to Appalachian, and they have a very good um communications department there did at the time. And um then I got into a political science class, you know, your first year kind of thing, and um I was talking about how the political system didn't work for us one day in class, and our our professor said, Well, you could be a congressman someday, you know that? And I was like, Yeah, maybe I could be. And so next thing I know, I jumped all into um uh politics and you know, all that kind of stuff, and it's just kind of always stuck. I've always been interested in it. Um, especially when government functions in the right way for people. That's it's it really is. I mean, again, I'm not gonna get on the soapbox, but it really is about serving people and taking care of one another. And you have to make some really hard decisions, and there is some realities that go with it that are, you know, it's not a it's it's combative on purpose, right? Our founders created this give and take process in our government, and that's part of the public debate that's supposed to go on in your legislature and your Congress. Um and um, you know, I I value all those things, I think they're really important um to making this democracy work. Um and it's it's not supposed to be easy, it's not supposed to be um always everybody gets what they want. Um, but but there's some real value there that that I bought into early. I guess I'm a just true believer in that respect.

Chad

Yeah. You said you clerked for was it Judge Martin? Is that right? Justice Martin. Tell me tell me what yeah, tell me what clerking means. I mean, you give me uh the lowdown there. I know it was is a it was important to you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so uh, you know, obviously we have state judges, um, and and these are appellate court judges, not your trial court judges. They typically don't have clerks, but my job was to um help Justice Martin and Justice Jackson work through the cases that came before them. Uh and so you would have case petitions that come in that the court, the Supreme Court takes it is it's like the U.S. Supreme Court, it does not have uh mandatory jurisdiction except for a couple of matters, so cases

What A Supreme Court Clerk Does

SPEAKER_02

from the business court. So the court is constantly looking at cases that are coming up from the uh Court of Appeals and trial courts and determining which cases it wants to take and which it doesn't. And so we do a lot, the clerks do a lot of that work working through what's coming up, what are the major issues, how is the law developing in this area or that area, uh, and then helping, and so we we do a lot of that work advising the justice on yeah, we think, you know, uh we call them JM. JM, we think you ought to do this for Justice Martin. JM, we think this is a good case to take, and you go, nah, it's not because of this, this, and this. And there was always that learning process, a little bit of a mentoring process that you get to go through. Um, but we'd also help out with drafting opinions and uh preparing judges or the justice for um their oral arguments, things like that. So, like I said, it's a lot of reading, a lot of thinking about the law and developing your own um kind of view of how the law works and how it should work. Uh, you get to see really good advocates and really bad advocates, and you can you get to read really good writing and really bad writing. Um, and so it was a a very formative experience for me, but um one one that I value very much. If I could go back and be a clerk and get what paid what I do today, I'd do it in a heartbeat because it's a lot, a lot of intriguing, interesting work, but I didn't have to put my name on anything uh because as long as my justice who would have their name on it. So I could make mistakes kind of quietly if you would.

Chad

Yeah. It sounds like a good foundation for for where you are now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the best. I I I would not be here where I am and able to do the things I do if it hadn't been for that experience. Yeah.

Marisa

Now, this journey that has led you to where you are, how intentional was it? You know, was it just kind of fell in your lap and then you just went with it, or was it very strategic in preparing you for where you are?

SPEAKER_02

I always like to think it was strategic, but it really at the end of the day, it's a lot of who you know when you know them, uh, and those kind of things. So, you know, the opportunities I've had have been based on relationships and people who have been willing to help me along in my journey. Um and so yeah, I mean, I had a general idea. If you had asked me 20 years ago, well, 20 years ago, I'd have been at Farm Bureau by this point. Um, if you'd asked me 25 years ago when I was still at Appalachian, would I be the general counsel at North Carolina Farm Bureau of the state's largest general farm organization? I I told you you're crazy. I it never would have been something that crossed my mind. I I always thought I'd have been one of those career politicians everybody talks trash about. Um so you know, who knows?

Chad

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because um I guess most folks think of Farm Bureau as an insurance company, whereas we, I I hardly ever think of it as an insurance company. It's always about advocacy, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's a it's a fascinating organization to be a part of. And as general counsel, I'm I'm like President Harding, I kind of touch every piece of the organization as a as an officer. So we, as you guys know, uh were founded as an advocacy organization for farmers in 1936 in Pitt County. Uh that was where the first county farm bureau developed, and and several county farm bureaus started building out from there into the mid-19, late 1960s, um, out in the mountains. Those were the last kind of counties to come into the the Federation. Um and so we we do that. That's our primary thing every day. We wake up serving those members who are and work for those members who are farming.

Farm Bureau Beyond Insurance

SPEAKER_02

Um, but we also, and then in 1953, the leadership of the organization noticed farmers were having a hard time getting insurance products and financial services. Uh, and so they created, I don't know where the idea came from, to be honest with you, but they created a mutual insurance company to solve that problem. And uh they kind of pooled their money together and built what is now the third largest property casualty insurance company in the state. We write only insurance products in North Carolina, we don't write in any other state, but we compete with all those national folks who you see with all their fancy ads and all those things. We we just we believe in you know serving people member to member and um in those county offices all over the state. So it's uh it's an interesting dynamic. And one one hand, you know, even in this day, I've I've been working on one minute I'm working on the advocacy issue, the next minute I'm working on the insurance issue, and that's just kind of the way it goes. But we have a great team here, um, and uh it's a it's really a great company to work for. Um but yeah, so we do a little bit of everything in those those regards, but we you know, and we we provide property casualty insurance to anybody in North Carolina who's willing to pay $25 to be a member of that that advocacy organization. For the most part, people are willing to do it because I think they support agriculture. Some of them probably just think we're the best deal around, and so they just uh what's another $25? But I do think a lot of people, once they understand what we're about, really do support family farmers and uh those are the people we represent, as you guys know, across the state. Uh, I like to say, you know, the old sayings from Murphy to Manio, right? It's every farm type, every farm size, uh, and uh it's a it's a really big tent, as as the saying goes here at Farm Bureau. We try to represent all of them as best we can.

Chad

Yeah, for sure. You you guys do a good job. Um, let's talk about um the legal foundation, North Carolina Farm Bureau Legal Foundation. I know it was established in 1983, but give us a little history on or background on why it was established, Jake.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, Chad, it it's it's really interesting. The the folks who've been a part of Farm Bureau over the years have always had foresight. Back to 1966, right? Creating this advocacy organization for farmers. And in 53, they create a mutual insurance company. And so in the 80s, um, they created a couple of entities. One is our political action committee, uh, which helps support those um candidates who are running for state and federal office that consider uh farm bureau and agriculture policy positions when they're legislating,

Why The Legal Foundation Exists

SPEAKER_02

uh legislating, I guess that's the right word. Um, but also they created, as you noted, Chad, the um legal foundation. And it is an entity that um has evolved over time. When it was first put together, the entity just made contributions or donations um to law firms that were representing farmers in important cases. And so uh at first there was a case out in Bertie County dealing with present use value, which is, as you guys know, a huge issue uh for our farmers to make sure we have that that entity and that it works well and that it's a viable way for farmers to deal with their property taxes. Um and so that's how it worked for probably uh the next 10 to 15 years. We would just get a request and you'd ship out some money to the law firm and they litigate the case. Uh, we wouldn't obviously pay for all the fees, but we'd pay a good chunk of it so that the farmer could stay in the case. Um, and then in the 90s, we started getting involved in more and more cases as a friend of the court. So we would write friend of the court briefs, or we would provide background support to lawyers who were litigating cases. Um and then that that continued, that trend went until about 2015, 2016, we started getting heavily involved in defending legislation that the General Assembly had passed. Um and so the the Property Protection Act, there were revisions to uh the uh state's labor laws as it relates to agricultural workers, where uh our our membership had took a policy position that um farmers shouldn't be the treasurers for farm labor unions. And you know, if a if a farm worker wants to pay their own union dues out of their paycheck, they can do it. But the farmer shouldn't be the person that has to make that transaction happen. And so the General Assembly passed a bill that dealt with that issue, and the farmer worker union, as I would have done if I was their counsel, they sued challenging that. So we helped defend that law along with the state. So we had this run of about seven, eight years where we were uh litigating those cases in defense of state legislation that passed. Uh, and then in 2019, we brought our own litigation against the state in the general permits case, which was uh really important to the state's swine industry. Uh, we might talk about that later. But and then in 2024, uh the board of directors authorized us to change the legal foundation into what's called a public interest law firm. And so now we can represent individual farmers in cases that have significant impact on the state, not a routine, I need a will, or I'm upset with my neighbor, or can you help me with this you know accident that occurred on the farm and I need insurance? But that's not what the legal foundation does, we do important cases. that are going to interpret state law and that will have an impact in positive we hope for agriculture across the state. So we have a several of those we're working on at the moment. And that's been really that's really the work I like doing. I mean the insurance stuff is is great. They're great people there, but it's not my favorite. We have a very talented lawyer on staff, Megan Cook, who handles the insurance stuff on a day-to-day basis. And so I get to do the fun stuff which is writing briefs to the Supreme Court and arguing cases in court on behalf of farmers. So that's that's been an adventure. But yeah it's a it's a crazy evolution if you think about it. Like you know 30 was it almost 43 years ago the the founders of that entity put it together and I don't think they ever would have thought it'd be what it is today.

Chad

Yeah. And you know you were I mean so you come on board in 2012 so that was kind of at the end of when they were just funding different law firms to help farmers and made that transition into the uh legal foundation. So so you've kind of seen a lot of change at the Farm Bureau in in reference to that I guess.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah it's um it's been one of the things when I came in obviously I was focused on the the legislative side of things but I came from that North Carolina Supreme Court background and I've begun to see how how often the General Assembly would pass bills, whether you like them or not, this is a trend that has been developing a bill passes and then the folks who opposed it will sue and challenge it in court. And I'll be just blunt with you if we end up in a situation where the General Assembly is passing bills that hurt farmers doggone better believe we're going to bring lawsuits in the half on behalf of our farmers it's just the way we are in society like it or not. So you got to play you got to play with the rules that you have in front of you or the rules of the game if it were or as it were so um we saw that happening and Julian Philpot like I said one of my mentors and and uh the person who had the seat before me was very open to that type of work. And President Wooten and our board of directors and Sean Harding have embraced it because especially Sean because he sees the he sees the trend and understands what's happening so they they've given me a lot of freedom and flexibility to be innovative in that space and um I I hope we can hope we can make it sustainable for the long term yeah for sure.

Chad

You know as I was thinking about um our podcast today um you know I I've known Jake for a while and I know he's worked on the hog nuisance litigation uh Senate Bill 711 and House Bill 467 right to farm that was 2018 17 I think um the challenge to the three permit conditions that we talked about and I think you may have done some work on proposition 12 too amicus briefs there. But I guess my question Jake is um I'd love to just know how how I mean give us a rundown on how you tackle some of that work. Like a lot of these issues I guess you know about them as they're like we're leading up to them like Proposition 12. We knew there was a ballot initiative coming um and then it passes it becomes law so we're working in front of it you're working behind it but maybe just kind of give me from once the board and I guess you got a board that decides what cases you'll hear but just kind of walk me through your that process I guess.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah it's pretty intense we um we monitor uh myself and and our team here uh we monitor a lot of stuff that's happening across the country litigation all over the place uh and we're looking for those issues of course grounded by Farm Bureau policy we're not gonna stray from if if if our voting delegates haven't taken a position on a particular issue or given us authority to work on a particular agricultural policy matter we're not gonna it is less likely that we'll get involved unless it was a major you know burgeoning kind of issue. So we're always scanning always looking for what's the new thing or what's an important case um and we've got this is going to sound um way more sophisticated than it is but we've got people all over the country we talk to I'm just regularly texting calling just uh friends all over the place that that do this kind of work and so we're all kind of coordinating um sometimes I wish we were coordinating more than we do but um yeah so we keep up with a lot and then when we identify a case um let's say that Prop 12 obviously that was going to be an issue and there was going to be um litigation there and American Farm Bureau and National Pork Producers Council as they should have in that particular case took the lead because it was a national issue and they filed a lawsuit in California challenging Prop 12 as as a violation of uh the United States Commerce Clause or the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution um my my team here will if they listen to this will be thrilled to know that I'm gonna say the words dormant commerce clause right uh which is a legal concept um that we don't have time to get into today um yeah but that issue popped up and then as we watched the case move through the appellate courts and it got to the US Supreme Court we had an opportunity to write a friend of the court brief to the court and that's really important at that higher up appellate level with the North Carolina Supreme Court North Carolina Court of Appeals Fourth Circuit um those are those friend of the court briefs can give a lot of value to the court and so yeah um we we coordinated a group of uh several states and other allied organizations to to write a brief telling the court

Picking Cases And Writing Amicus Briefs

SPEAKER_02

why that case is going to be important to North Carolina agriculture and agriculture in states right it's a little bit different angle than what the the primary parties in the case were were making so we're we're looking at cases we're thinking about them we're reading um you know case law uh statutes all the time and just trying to find a way to to and we're watching what the courts do we watch what the supreme court does we watch what the North Carolina Supreme Court does we read cases that we don't even think have anything to do with agriculture that um may be important down the line so we're just always we're always learning and gathering information I think I was at I was at an event earlier today of the swearing in of a friend of mine who became an ALJ an administrative law judge today and a lawyer we were talking to at the event was making a joke about a practice for 50 years and somebody said well you've had a lot of practice you know the idea is you're practicing law you're always learning and growing and trying to figure out better ways to do things he said yeah I don't do as much practicing as I used to but um the the idea is we just Chad try to keep up with everything that's happening and then and there's there there are a lot of cases we don't take um there are plenty of cases where we will sit down and talk with the uh the the people who are involved or read the case along and go we might lose that one we'll probably stay out of that or that's that's not really in the realm of Farm Bureau policy or the plaintiff isn't a very nice person. So you have to pick and choose those those things um wisely but yeah there's a lot a lot that goes into it I I like to think that we I like to think we have a decent idea of where we're going um and what cases are important and what we want to get involved in. It certainly sounds ex exciting is exciting the right word for a legal nerd yes it's exciting um for a normal everyday and I do it is not lost on me that I live in a a world that is different than a lot of people I think about things in in the law that that probably most everyday people would be like what are you doing? But that's it's like anybody else who's you know engaged in what they do and cares about what the work they do. I I guess you have plumbers who think about well hey we could do it this way right and make a better result for the the client we're serving right I think everybody who really cares and is passionate about their work does that. So yeah I would call it exciting um but there is a lot of grind that goes to it right there's there's like last night we're working on an amicus brief in a case I can't can't disclose it yet because we haven't filed it but we're working on an amicus brief in a very important case in the state supreme court and I was I you know up till 1130 working on research and reading and um you know I enjoy it farmers are worth the the members we serve are worth the time I do it after the kids are like I try to get the kids to bed and that kind of thing right try to try to be present with them in those times when I can be but there's a lot of just working and reading and thinking and writing that that people don't see um and you know everybody likes to think oh you get up and you get to argue a case in court and that would be exciting and it is it is a rush um but there's a lot of prep that goes into it and a lot of time and effort and um a lot of mistakes happen along the way if if you know you just you're reading something ah that's not a good argument we're gonna have to change that and fix that. So there's a lot of a lot of testing yourself and really really wrestling with the ideas you have and trying to get to a solution that that's reasonable. So um but yeah I think it's exciting but most people go gosh this is boring and um hey as long as you think it's exciting.

Marisa

Yeah because really go ahead Marissa I was just gonna say can you talk a little bit about how the agriculture this agriculture pocket is different than say other industries or what you've seen before dealt with before yeah in some respects agriculture law I I think that's what you're getting at is just this kind of how is agriculture different in a law um and in some respects it is and in some respects it's not uh in some cases if you're forming a an LLC to protect yourself against liability and and get tax benefits because you're gonna put in a bunch of hog barns that's just straight business law uh you need to have a good succession plan right and you need an estate plan for all the legal farms are complex business operations they're family farms and that doesn't make them corporate or whatever the the you know those those messages are uh but but they are complicated entities just like any other business you have if you have a small family business there's assets involved there's all of that stuff so you need estate planning people to help you think through that you need to have um good contracts and employee handbooks right all of those things are basic business law things that you would have what makes agriculture different is in the policy realm um there are a lot of exemptions and um exceptions for agriculture than there are state law and our federal law and knowing what the present use value program is is really important.

SPEAKER_02

And if you're a tax lawyer or you're a local you know small town lawyer and you don't know what that program is and a farmer comes in and talks to you about their uh you know acquiring property somewhere and you don't know that there's a three year rollback right for acquiring property or how you get the property that you just bought enrolled into your PUV program, those kind of specialty things Marissa make agricultural law a little different um and and so it's really the exceptions to the general rules that make ag important. Then you have things like right to farm which um protects farmers against nuisance lawsuits probably behind present use value I'd say that's probably one of the most important state status we have in the agriculture context. And so every state has one. They're all a little different and and knowing those dynamics is helpful and valuable um so it's things like that that set agriculture apart a little bit but um yeah so you just have to learn it and and experience it and um you know we find we find new things all the time that make make agriculture a little bit different that's um that's really cool.

Chad

Let's I want to uh ask you on amicus briefs um who's reading those so it's really another judge is reading those and you're trying to convince him of your point of view right that's the the purpose behind that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah a good amicus brief and and this is um it's nerd time right um yeah yeah I'm I'm nerding with you parties you have two parties in a case uh let's say it's a uh a farmer and the State Department of Environmental quality right the North Environmental quality and you got a brief you're in front of a judge and you're trying to tell the judge the parties are trying to make their arguments on specific areas in the case that are really important. A good friend of the court brief or a MECIS brief raises something new for the judge to consider or expands on something in this case we'd be supporting the farmer supports the farmer in some way that they don't have time to talk about or that is important but isn't really their primary argument. And so we filed infrequently just to educate the court about agriculture law or how this particular case might impact farmers down the line. And so you know you you try to write something that's unique that the court will read because they don't have to read it. The only pleadings they have the only papers they have to read or I mean they don't have to read anything technically but they should be reading the party's briefs right because that's what's actually in front of them. So a friend of the court brief has got to be compelling enough for you to spend the extra 15 20 30 minutes you know probably if you're reading really fast 15 20 minutes just to read it but if you're really going to study it you know the next 30 45 minutes you've got to give them something that's worth reading um and something that they would actually digest and understand. So um we we take that very seriously on which cases we want to get involved in and what are we going to say to the court. We get questions all the time hey would you file a frame of the court brief well yeah what do you want us to say oh well if they say the basic same things that they're arguing then there's no point in us getting involved. So we try to and sometimes there are cases like hey the parties have got this there's nothing for us really to add and so we'll stick oh yeah. But but generally we're trying to we try to pick and choose our cases Chad so that we've got something to say otherwise we're wasting everybody's time and then you make judges mad and that's the last thing you want. You don't want to you don't want an annoying judge.

Chad

Yeah

How Agriculture Groups Stay Unified

Chad

well I've said this several times recently and I really mean it um but I feel like agriculture is is more unified than it's ever been I feel like when I see the Farm Bureau working together with the Port Council and all the other trade associations it really gives me a lot of hope um for the future. So talk to me a little bit about those relationships and I mean the the ag partnership even us NC farm families uh all working together for a same goal maybe in different lanes um but let's just talk about about those partnerships a little bit yeah they're they're crucial um and and I think Chad you may have heard this before I don't know Marissa in your um experiences you've run into this as well I don't I don't think we realize how good we have it here I think I think from what President Harding will tell us when he comes back from events or or other places in the country we really do have something unique where we do work largely together on a lot of issues um and I think I think some of that comes out of trust a lot of us have known each other for a really long time um what I was on the phone with um somebody you guys know well Angie Mayer uh long time lobbyist report counsel now with very producer she's one of my dear friends and we had we had an issue we needed to talk about I I mean Angie and I have been through a lot together and built up a lot of trust and it's at the point where you know Angie can be pretty bump direct with that's what we appreciate about her.

SPEAKER_02

And that's a good thing there's that trust there's that built-up relationship that helps you work through the disagreements on policy and then you can get to a place of common ground. And I'm picking on her but she's a great example of that. But also just I think we at Farm Bureau also understand we're the general farm organization. We see the state broader but we also respect the fact that these other commodity associations have a membership and they have issues that they're working on too and so we often will give ground a little bit and provide a supporting role there are plenty of situations where we'll have issues that come up that is you know we do a lot with the shellfish growers association and industry oyster farmers clams um and they'll have very specific issues that are theirs to fight on and we will back them up and help them do that but not take over for them. And so I think an understanding of where is that where is that line and where is that role is really important. But I also think um I think it's really I think we've learned over the years it's really important for us to stick together because the General Assembly although they do really great work I think for the most part in the agriculture space very few of them have an agriculture background. Yeah sure and if you don't go in unified or at least supportive of each other and in terms of I understand why port council is taking this particular position or poultry maybe over here on something different that's fine. We may not necessarily support that but we may not we wouldn't oppose it right we just let them go do their work and I'm using that as an example we recognize that confusion in the building creates bad results so you want you want everybody who's working on these issues who's not familiar with agriculture to understand we're all generally in the same space we're all facing the same challenges we just produce something a little different. I think that's really healthy and it's a credit to it's a credit to Commissioner Troxler, Larry Wooten President Harding Roy Lee Deborah Johnson you know everybody who's been in those roles over the years um and you know Brian Blenson at Cattlemen and just the others in the commodity associations we've all kind of understood we got to work together otherwise we're gonna get some results we don't like um so um it's it's worked I I don't know how else to say it I mean it's worked um but there there are a lot of there are a lot of back end conversations that are not a lot of fun and you just have to kind of go through it and then get to a common point and come out. So yeah.

Marisa

Well it's amazing to me I mean when you compare different states right North Carolina is one of the most diverse and then individual farmers I think are just diverse in their what they produce in comparison to others. So it amazes me like just take you guys for example what you have to cover and know and be able to support right like it's not just you have one lane that you're supporting. You're supporting like you said the shellfish but then you jump over and you're in the mountain with the Christmas trees and in the middle with the pigs. You know it's just that's a lot to that's a lot of knowledge and relationships to to manage and hold.

SPEAKER_02

And that goes to I think the again back to the the vision of of Farm Bureau as an organization and what our leadership has allowed us to do over the years and what they require of us. They require us to know this stuff they require us to work together as a team and inside Farm Bureau we have a tremendous public policy staff that does excellent work and and we're all talking regularly about issues that come up in their places but there are plenty of situations where I have to say that uh you know my colleague Keith Larrick who handles a lot of the animal waste issues like Keith I have no idea what we're talking about here. You're gonna have to you're gonna have to educate me on what's going on. So there's a lot of that trust and a lot of that um um camaraderie that goes on that we we work our way through but it it's really a testament to our leadership that they give us the resources to do it. Otherwise we're a city point it'd be really hard to keep up with it. There are for example um there are there are state farm bureaus that are um the smallest county farm bureau I want out them in North Carolina has about just under a thousand members there are state farm bureaus that don't have a thousand members period and so it would be really challenging if you were in one of those really small they're mainly in the northeast and there's some reasons for that but they they have some smaller how do they keep up with everything I I just I don't know. And there probably are some things they miss not because they're not capable or talented it's just resource issues. So we've been blessed for years to have the resources to work on all those different issues.

Farmers’ Voices, Civics, And AI Risks

Chad

Yeah I guess it's a good time to to talk about um the importance of the farmer's voice I mean as a as a pig farmer um I'm involved with my state association and I'm letting them know you know what's going on my farm so that that information can travel up to you. You know it's just important for all of us as farmers to be involved more than just on the farm. We got to get involved in our associations for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah and and it's important especially in the advocacy context Chad to keep in mind that the legislator you're dealing with probably does not have much experience in agriculture if they did if they're not a farmer they're the Brent Jackson's and the Lisa Barnes's and the Carl Gillespie's right they've got they've got experience 10 times over. But for the the regular member uh you know from Johnston County who Don't have that agriculture background and maybe representing Donna White is a good friend, a close friend. She didn't grow up on a farm, but she does respect farmers and wants to hear from them about what is their what are their concerns. How does this work in your industry? And so they're open to hearing that. But some of them, you know, I'm a registered, I like to say I'm a recovering lobbyist because I'm not in the legislative building every day. But you know, we're we're lobbying all the time, we're interacting with legislators all the time, and sometimes they want to hear from their constituents, right? And they want to hear from people who are actually, like I like to say, with dirt under their fingernails and can tell them how it really functions because I haven't grown anything in my life, and so I don't know you know, I don't know how it is, I don't know what it's like to have that loan payment and the debt structure, and then trying to make it go, and then you have a drought, and right, like farmers are the best people to tell that story, and so that's why that's why Farm Bureau I think works, these other commodity associations work, is because it gives you a chance to tell that story backed up with people who are following the details of the policy. And um, I tell our farmer members all the time, we can't make this go without y'all. Like you you've got to be willing to do this and willing to invest your time. Uh otherwise, it's just Jake who never grew anything talking about an agricultural law issue. But when I've got a farmer who's talking about it with me next to a legislator, it matters a lot. Um I think that's really important in today's um today's environment where there's so much information, so much access to whatever you want on these things, right? Um it's hard to shift through what's real, what's not. Um, and so you want to have farmers have to participate in that process, otherwise you're gonna get drowned out by the the opponents of it or people who just don't know what they're talking about.

Chad

Yeah. And with AI coming on the scene, uh, I mean, you know, I can be good and bad, right, Jay?

SPEAKER_02

It it's uh I had a I had this event that I was at earlier today. I was talking to a court of appeals judge who uh I think a lot of is a friend of mine, and he was talking about um he was in some class recently where they were studying AI, just trying to learn more about it and how it worked and all those kind of things. And he and I were talking about how I I've begun to start you uh I've yeah, I've started using it to help me do research because I can ask you questions very specific, questions that indicate I know an area of the law, but I I don't know where this particular document is, or I want to test this case against other or this maybe theory I have against other ideas, and I don't want to spend five hours digging through West Law trying to find cases. This thing can pop case now. You have to be careful because it'll create cases that aren't true, and so you've got to read your stuff with hallucinate cases, and judges appellate advocates get in trouble a lot for citing these cases that don't exist because they're not doing their homework. But if you use it right, it can be a really valuable tool to test. But but Chad, to your point, there's a lot of risk in there, and there's a lot of misinformation that it's picked because it's just grabbing everything it sees on the internet, right? And so it's it's also trying to synthesize, but that's where the human part of it comes into play. It is a tool, it shouldn't replace our thinking and our instincts and those kind of things, but it can be helpful um in a lot of cases, but it's got to be used correctly, I think. And that's the part figuring out what is correct, what is using it correctly is the trip, right? Um, so yeah, there's a lot of but but yeah, we we just have to understand, I think, as an industry, these things are out there, they're they can be a little scary at first, but I think they're also tools um that you can use.

Marisa

So I think that's the right word.

Chad

It's a tool. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Jake, what do you think about

Farmland Preservation And Property Rights

Chad

farmland preservation? I know we've done a couple of podcasts, we've had Brandon Batten on and Adam Caldwell over in Johnson County, and I tell you, that's a real I mean we talk about property rights and and farmland preservation, it's uh this a it's a real tough uh issue.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is a challenge, and I wish I had a great answer for how to solve it. Um and I just don't think there is one. Um Brandon actually, I joke with him a lot. He's a farmer from Johnston County. I live in Clayton, and I like to joke with Brandon. I'm part of the problem in uh Johnston County uh because we we moved in and built a couple of houses in the area, uh, moved around on some old farmland. Um but I I think I mean there obviously go to be programs and and policies. I think one thing that would be really good to get a handle on is how do we leverage more quickly federal funds. I think that's that's a big holdup in the state's program. And I think Commissioner Troxler's done an admirable job in raising the issue and securing funding for the General Assembly for that. But there are some procedural headaches that go along with that program that it would be nice to work out, and I think mainly they lie at the federal level. Um I think also farmers being involved in their local county commission decision making and running for office and making it a priority. Um, the reality is that we have a tremendously fast-growing state, and people have got to find places to live. Um, but there has to be some ballots, and that's why those local county commissioner races are so important, and zoning decisions are important, making sure you got the right zoning regulations in place that aren't too restrictive on development, but also take account for the fact that there's farmland in this in the county that you need. Um, and so it's I think it comes down to communication and and if we can ever figure out um you know some kind of silver bullet for it, I'd be all for it. But I just I don't I don't know that a tool exists, um, unfortunately. Um and it's a property right, Chad, you mentioned it, uh now I'm just freestyling. It's a property rights issue, right? Like I there's also that element to it. I own land, and let's say it's a farm, and if my kids don't want to go into farming and I'm at 70 years old and I want to get out and I can sell for five million dollars.

Chad

Oh, I totally get it.

SPEAKER_02

That's a hard thing to tell somebody to do, right? And yeah, um, so it's it's a challenge. Um but we have to keep talking about it and and keep thinking of ways to to address it. But I do think those local local county commissions are really where the rubber meets the road on this issue. So I I would encourage farmers to run for those seats. Um I know it's hard and there are challenges that come with that, but um that that's probably the best way to do it. Back to that advocacy part, right?

Chad

Yeah,

The Next Fight For Agriculture

Chad

yeah, for sure. Well, um anything else, Jake? Uh looking forward on how we can better uh you know uh fight for agriculture, protect our farms. Anything on the horizon that you see?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I think obviously we we continue to do what's worked. Advocacy, um, communicating together, working together in the community. That that's that's worked for 90 years at North Carolina Farm Bureau. We're going into our 90th year uh or 91st year. Uh, and so that's never going to change. As long as you have elected people, uh imperfect as they are serving in the General Assembly or in Congress, you've got to be engaged with them as well. You can't just ignore that that part of the relationship. Um, I think being innovative as we've tried to be with the Legal Foundation is important. You can't continue to do the same thing the same way. Thinking about how do we use, and you guys have done a lot of this work, how do you use social media? How do you uh engage in um places where you may not be comfortable? I think that's a real challenge. Um, standing across somebody who has a really strong opinion, um, you know, maybe they're in the Maha movement, um, to the extent it's a movement, whatever it is, uh, and they're you know telling you you can't use pesticides and and and that they're bad for you. Well, you've got a different story to tell, right? And that may not be comfortable to have to go head to head with somebody like that, but you've got to you gotta do it and you gotta do it respectfully um in a way that that helps people learn. I think that's important. Um so I think I think it's doing the same things we've been doing that we've been doing really well in the advocacy space, but also being willing to innovate and change a little bit of the tactic, if you will.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Marisa

Do you see any skills that you wish more people had or would work on to be a better advocate?

SPEAKER_02

Oh wow. You know, I'm I wish we had a better, I I wish we were placing more emphasis on how our government functions in schools, but not just schools. I think we've missed a generation of of people who know how the system functions and what it's about. Um and and I can't lay that entirely on the public school system or even the private school system. I just think as a society, we've gotten a little bit away from those founding principles of we have a democracy, uh, I think um democracy republic, if you want to get really specific about it, after the constitu or not the constitution, um after uh the declaration of independence was adopted, Ben Franklin came out of the hearing room, or not the hearing hall, uh whatever the hall was where they were doing the uh freedom hall in Philadelphia, and he said, uh, what kind of government did you create? And he said, A republic if you can keep it. And I really think that is right. Um, it it takes some responsibility, it takes learning how the system works, it's being able to build those relationships and understand how this all fits together. We're we're the the brief we're working on is all about um separation of powers and different branches of government and how they all function. I mean it's basic nerd stuff that I love as a lawyer, but I don't think a lot of people today are really worried about that. And I think we've gotten away from government um being a service-oriented um enterprise. Uh, and I think we're we're you know, I could I could go on and on and on, but I do think those are important. Um just the basic civics of how government works would be really helpful, I think, for the the for the country and for how we would do things a little bit better.

Chad

Um I'll be honest, I you know, I took I was in Sabin's class and um and I just I don't know where I was at. I must not have been paying attention, but it wasn't until uh until I got involved in like Port Leadership Institute and when we traveled to DC and they taught us about government and just being involved in in the associations and whatnot that I really learned about how government works. Uh and that was much later in life. So I mean I I I could have learned a lot earlier. Yeah. Well, uh maybe this analogy works.

SPEAKER_02

I'm making this up on the fly. Um I said earlier, but my youngest daughter plays uh club soccer. We travel all over the place and I love it. Um, and I didn't know the first thing about soccer. I I don't know anything about it. But the more I watch her play, the more I'm engaged with it, I learn more and more and more. And I learned a little bit more about the back end of how you know the clubs work and those kind of things. So I think it's it's also taking time to learn something new. Now I'm kind of forced to because it's kind of there, and we're gonna go to Wilmington and play you know four games in 98 degree heat, and yeah, that's what we're gonna do. But I I think the analogy works in some respects because it's just it's something new. I've always kind of known a little bit about it, but I had to learn. I I'm still learning, I have to learn more. But I think you're right, Chad, that

Life Outside Work And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_02

if it's beyond, we can't rest at all on public schools, and maybe the takeaway from this part of our conversation is for those trade associations, agriculture commodity associations, we need to be investing a lot in leadership development and spending time on these basic government issues because we can't count on can't count on public schools, private schools, and government to solve it for us. We gotta we gotta take some ownership for that. Maybe that's right. I don't know.

Chad

That's right. I think you're right on track.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

Chad

Well, now, Jake, I know you don't geek out on on ag law stuff all the time. Surely there's some hobbies or something you do. Uh you play golf. Well, tell me something that you do that's fun or you're you're kind of released.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I play I play golf poorly. Um I I've like I said, I watch my daughters play volleyball and soccer. That's a lot of it. Uh I'm a big college basketball fan, so I watch a lot of a lot of that during the year. Um I love reading when I can find time to do it. Um, especially you know, as we we're this is a little bit of your patriotic rah-rah here, but we're going into the 250th you know anniversary of the United States country. So I got a couple books I want to read that are about the history of the revolution and the development of the Constitution, which sounds exactly what we've been talking about with respect to what I do anyway, but it's it's interesting to me. Um I I'm big into the hurricanes right now. Um I don't know what happened, but this like summer, or not summer, this winter, my family went to a couple games and my all my my whole family, my wife, and my kids are all hooked on the canes. So we're watching a lot of hockey. I'm watching more hockey than I did basketball, which is kind of funny for a North Carolina person to be um watching the Irish, but it's it's a blast. So just finding things like that to do, um, and and really I don't do it, I'll be honest, this is the full disclosure part, I don't do a great job of separating from the work, right? It's just always kind of in front of me and it's something I enjoy doing. So, you know, for me, it's nice to get away from sometimes, but I'm always thinking about the next case or the next issue or the next conversation we got to have about an ag issue or or something like that. So I don't know if that's good or bad, but that's just you know how how I'm wired.

Chad

Yeah. Well, Jake, I just want to let you know uh really on behalf of all farmers how much we appreciate uh all the work you do. I don't think people realize uh just how much effort you put into it and and not necessarily how much effort, but how much of an impact you've had on uh our our right to farm, our right to operate, our freedom to operate um as uh farmers across this state. And I just really from the bottom of my heart, I want to say thank you uh for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Very kind. Uh it's it's as I said at the beginning, it's a service thing. Um my wife might call it a call, she would call it a calling in the the uh ministry context. I'd call it a calling as well. One that I didn't expect. Uh but it's I tell I tell our board this all the time, they're worth it. It's one of the things I in my um, you know, we have a lot something along the lines of we have a lot going on in the legal department this month or this quarter, but y'all are worth it. So I think that the farmer members we work with are just they're um they're incredible in the things that they do, and they they deserve advocates. They they're out there taking care of pigs and trying to grow corn and cotton and soybeans and tobacco and sweet potatoes, and they don't have time to mess with the legislature or courts, but um they uh they trust us to do that work, I don't take it lightly.

Chad

That's right. No matter what, there's a job for you in agriculture.

SPEAKER_02

I I want folks to know that uh as long as we're not driving uh driving some farm equipment or trying to plant something, we'll be okay.

Chad

I I wish Jan Archer was here to say it though, because she says it better than anybody.

SPEAKER_02

It takes all of us to get this done.

Chad

So it's really important to do that on the uh thanks for joining us on another episode of Race on the Far podcast. Remember to subscribe and follow us on Instagram. Have a question or top copy of us. Let us know and enjoy the conversation. We'll see you next time.