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History's Guardians: How Archaeology Is Rebuilding Veterans' Careers

• Larry Zilliox • Season 3 • Episode 115

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Archaeology might conjure images of dusty excavations and Indiana Jones adventures, but for veterans seeking meaningful employment transitions, it's becoming an unexpected bridge to civilian careers. In this eye-opening conversation, host Chef Larry welcomes Caroline and Gabi from the Veterans Curation Program in Alexandria, Virginia, revealing a groundbreaking initiative that's transforming lives through the preservation of archaeological treasures.

The Veterans Curation Program offers a refreshingly practical solution to two significant challenges: veterans seeking transferable workplace skills and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers needing specialized processing of archaeological collections. This five-month paid employment program (not an internship or fellowship) teaches veterans valuable skills through hands-on work with historical artifacts and documents. From database management to photography, careful preservation to digital scanning, participants emerge with a versatile professional toolkit applicable across numerous industries.

What truly distinguishes this program is its comprehensive career development component. After receiving archaeological training, veterans spend dedicated work hours building resumes, preparing for interviews, networking with potential employers, and connecting with veteran service organizations. As Gabi, a Marine Corps veteran turned Archives Lab Manager, shares her journey from military service to discovering an unexpected career path, listeners witness the profound impact of finding purpose through preservation work.

Caroline, a program archaeologist, dispels Hollywood myths about the field while highlighting how the methodical, detail-oriented nature of curation work provides veterans with skills that transfer seamlessly to numerous professional settings. Whether participants ultimately pursue careers in museums, information technology, human resources, or countless other fields, the program serves as that crucial bridge between military service and civilian success.

Are you a post-9/11 veteran seeking your next mission? Do you know someone struggling to find their footing after military service? The Veterans Curation Program is accepting applications year-round at veteranscurationprogram.org, with particular interest in expanding their applicant pool. Join the program's upcoming ice cream social on July 25th to explore the Alexandria lab, meet staff and current participants, and perhaps discover an unexpected path forward in your post-service career journey.

Larry Zilliox:

Good morning. I'm your host, Larry Zilliox, Director of Culinary Services, here at the Warrior Retreat at Bull Run, and this week our guests are Caroline and Gabi from the Veterans Curation Center in Alexandria, and I've asked them to come and tell us all about this program. When I first heard about this actually it was over a year ago I heard about this. It really intrigued me because there's nothing else like it. And so, caroline, welcome to the podcast, and Gabby, thanks for coming. We really appreciate it. Caroline, just kind of briefly, tell us what is the Veterans Curation Project? What does it do?

Caroline:

Well, first thank you for having both of us and for giving us a wonderful tour. This is a really special place, so thank you for having us today. The Veterans Curation Program is a program run by the US Army Corps of Engineers. You might hear us say USACE, but that's what the Army Corps of Engineers runs this program. It is a five-month transitional program for veterans full-time paid job, full or part-time paid job, so not an internship, not a skill bridge, full-up employment. And the kind of special thing about the program is that we use archaeology specifically, curation to help teach transferable skills. So we find that we can teach things like database management, we can teach things as simple as time management, and it's really to provide those professional skills but also the community for the veterans.

Larry Zilliox:

So if you would, for our listeners and for me in particular, tell us what you're talking about when you say curation Tell us what you're talking about when you say curation.

Caroline:

Sure, I'm an archaeologist, so I will say a lot of nerd things on this podcast, but curation is what happens to objects after they are brought out of the field. This is all of the things that Hollywood doesn't really show in the movies, but it's just as important. But we are in the AC all day. It's very nice and cool. We're not outside digging. That has already been done and we are really making sure that these objects are safe and stable. Veterans learn minimal identification. That's what the archaeologists on the team are there for. There's no pop quiz. There's nothing. We just try to have fun, learn a bit of history at the same time. But yeah, making these things safe and stable and then following whatever the Army Corps of Engineers wants them to go after that, we're kind of the middleman.

Larry Zilliox:

So, gabby, you're a veteran, a Marine Corps veteran, so my first question for you is one that I ask a lot of our guests who are veterans is why did you join the Marine Corps and not the Air Force?

Gabi:

It's a really good question. Initially I had decided to join the military because I'm an army brat and my dad spent over 20 years in the army. I spent a lot of time traveling and then I kind of make it a joke I have an older sister who randomly joined the Marines and she came back.

Larry Zilliox:

Is that just to piss off your old man? Yeah, yeah.

Gabi:

Okay, we do give him a hard time about it, but he's a great guy. He's never been. He's always been super supportive and he's never been anti branch because he's off while my dad, you know, in the hangar. And I really wanted to be a Black Hawk pilot and then turns out I'm a little shorter than I like to admit, so I was still going to join the Army. My sister joined the Marines and she came back a completely different person and I really admired her to begin with. We like to joke around that I would copycat her a lot. I would never admit it at my young age, but now, as an adult, I look back and maybe I did a little bit. So she came back and she came back a person that I guess I wanted to be like and she had all of this knowledge and this experience and she came back a different person in a way that I think I needed that kind of motivation and discipline as well.

Gabi:

And so at the very end in MEPS I had already taken my ASVAB I broke my Army recruiter's heart and walked down to the Marine Corps office actually is the same recruiter that my sister used and so we essentially I had the same ship date as her, but a year later. And then when did you go?

Larry Zilliox:

in 2006. Okay, and four years did you do?

Gabi:

My official leave date was 2011. And so I ended up having to go into MacDill to do my final paperwork. I was in 29 Palms and I was with 14th Marines out of Texas, and so my official stuff, like I, ended up developing some medical disorders during my time. So my dream was to be in for, just like my dad, over 20 years. That was unfortunately cut really rapidly and so my sister continued on.

Larry Zilliox:

Were you medically discharged?

Gabi:

I went to the med boards and I had all of my paperwork lined up and then once I hit my once I hit MacDill I had to then work, try and distance work with 14th Marines and that was very convoluted. And so my official paperwork. I'm not a med sep, so I had to go through all my med board paperwork and try and work that out later and so it's not not the best. It wasn't the dream that I had.

Larry Zilliox:

Right.

Gabi:

So it was really hard for me to accept that. And then I did want to still serve in that community, so I started volunteering more, and the funny thing is my older sister served with our assistant PM in the Marine Corps, which is how I learned about the Veterans Curation Program.

Larry Zilliox:

That was going to be. My next question is how did you get to the Veterans Curation Program? So was this the first thing you did when you got out?

Gabi:

No, I tried to stay. I was a comm data Marine.

Larry Zilliox:

Right.

Gabi:

So I tried to stay within that field and then I quickly recognized that was something I enjoyed doing for the Marines not in a civilian aspect and so I decided I needed to be college bound and utilize my benefits and through that journey I met some really great people that helped me with my benefits and they impacted my life kind of similarly the same way that I saw my sister get impacted by the Marines and I was so positively changed by these wonderful people that I felt the appropriate thing to do was to help the next veteran.

Gabi:

And so I started volunteering. I did a lot of different volunteering Relay for Life, I coached soccer but I really wanted to focus on veterans. So my initial belief was that I wanted to get my law degree and help veterans with the VA process. I know there's a lot of struggle there. There's a lot of angst that veterans experience, and I knew two things I wanted to help veterans and I wanted to have the same impact that the people that helped me with my benefits, the same impact my sister had on me the people that helped me with my benefits.

Gabi:

the same impact my sister had on me and it to me led to just a law degree to go, and you know, handle the VA in those appeals until I met Caroline through the Veterans Curation Program.

Larry Zilliox:

Nice.

Gabi:

And I like to tease her a lot because I say that she torpedoed my entire life plan.

Gabi:

And so she, in the best way possible. She was my manager when I was a tech at the VCP and she explained to me that I had a lot of gifts and skills and she recognized my desire to help veterans and she had said you know you can help veterans in many ways. Veterans and she had said you know you can help veterans in many ways. You're really good at this specific avenue that we do here at the BCP as far as the curation side goes. So she had asked if I was interested in staying within the field and maybe I should explore that a little bit more. And then sometimes I like to make the joke that I'm the luckiest person that's ever existed, because everything seems to line up when it should.

Gabi:

And an assistant manager position opened up at the ALX lab that we are currently in. So I took it, I interviewed for it was fortunate enough to take it, and then I moved into the photo lab. So I was the photo lab manager for our lab and then my current position is an archives lab manager in our lab. So I was the photo lab manager for our lab and then my current position is an archives lab manager in our lab, and again I went to Caroline for all of her genius and all of her insight in her wisdom and I asked her do you think I can do this? Because now it's a lot of collections management work that I'm involved with, as well as helping the veterans. And she gave me a lot of really great advice and then at the end of our conversation she had said I think you need to try and go for it.

Larry Zilliox:

Yeah.

Gabi:

And I did and I got it. Now I get to work really hands-on with the collections, while maintaining my desire and my drive to help veterans.

Larry Zilliox:

Awesome, just awesome. Caroline, where did you go to school for your like archaeology?

Caroline:

UMass Boston.

Larry Zilliox:

Okay, and so you're done with school and you say I'm going to go find dinosaurs in the ground, right?

Caroline:

We get that a lot. Unfortunately, we're not dinosaurs. We like working with paleontologists, but we do all of the stuff that people left behind.

Larry Zilliox:

So when you came right out of college with this degree, the idea was to go right into the curation aspect of it.

Caroline:

I've always loved the curation part of it. I have done the excavation part and it's a whole lot of fun. I just don't like to be outside that long, every day, all day. So the AC is very nice. But yeah, there's something about curation that really, really interested me. I've always loved doing the public education side of it as well. This isn't just stuff, there's the story behind it and the whole point is to tell those stories. So this job I was just as lucky as Gabby was too. It just kind of opened up and it allowed me to do both things. Things have the people side of things and help tell those stories, but also be current and be present for the veterans and then also do the nerd stuff in the AC at the same time.

Larry Zilliox:

Wow. So in my mind, the way this works, and it's probably wrong, but I'm just going to say you have the folks that find the artifacts Could be dinosaurs or could be I don't know pictures in an attic, could be important documents from our national history, could be any number of these things and they're like, yay, we found it. Now what do we do with it? Give it to a curator. You guys take it, make sure it's in good shape and then archive it so that a third person comes along and uses it for research or tries to figure out. You know how it fits into everything. Is that pretty close to what you all do? Are you like in the middle there, or just kind of cataloging and safeguarding and making sure it's available to I don't know universities or wherever anybody wants to study it? I don't know universities or wherever anybody who wants to study it.

Caroline:

Yeah, so a lot of that, definitely. So we, as I mentioned, we are under the US Army Corps of Engineers. They own a lot of land in the United States and by law, before you do some kind of development, if it's a federal, they call it an undertaking is a fancy term, but basically any federal money land project, you have to consider the historic resources that you're going to impact before you do the project, resources that you're going to impact before you do the project. So anytime that USACE wants to build a dam or do a modification for an army base, say, they have to consider those resources first. And that generates a lot of reports, a lot of archaeology. There's the stuff that is found in the ground, but there's also all of the paperwork that again, hollywood does not show you.

Caroline:

We are archaeologists, we are scientists, we love documentation. There is a form for everything and Gabby has all of them, but there are, depending upon the project, that material goes somewhere where, depending upon the project, that material goes somewhere. And you say they have a department called Mandatory Center of Expertise and they did a study, I think 10 or so years ago, and they looked at where all of the Army Corps things were around the country and they did a consolidation project to try to get them down to a certain number of storage areas and in that they identified a lot of collections that are in need of care. So some things might have been excavated in, say, the 1980s and they've sat on a shelf for 40, 50 years. A lot can happen in that time.

Caroline:

So, water damage to the boxes, or maybe things weren't put in archivally safe containers. So USAID has identified all of those and that's where the VCP comes in. We have offices around the country and so different collections are sent to the VCP offices and we do that stabilization. The veteran technicians are trained to again do basic identification and put them in archivally safe containers, digitize those objects through photography or through scanning. That package then can go to wherever USACE wants it to go next. So that might be back to USACE, it might be back to a university, it might be to a state museum. It just depends upon the collection.

Larry Zilliox:

So are the collections that you all work on? Let me ask you this, gabby, are they public? I mean, let me ask you this, gabby, are they public? I mean, so much of what the government does is public information, but are the collections, once you're finished with them, available to a university or a school somewhere? How much of it is digitized? Let me just ask you that.

Gabi:

Well, that's a really good question. That's exactly what we're doing at the VCP. We are accomplishing that goal. And so on my side of the lab, all of the documents, the photos, reports, the field documents, we have maps, we have background records All of that stuff is going to be organized, situated. We do some light cleaning and mending situated.

Gabi:

We do some light, cleaning and mending. So we will remove like staples and flatten things out. But everything will be digitized and it will go in a database and the idea is we're going to put it in a order that the future Caroline, when someone with her background that's working on a project or doing research, could easily access any part of that collection through the database with its corresponding scan as far as, like that public side of things it's going to be based on, like the repository of whatever their plan is for it.

Gabi:

So we won't really have a say in that. Usace will give us the information as far as final repository and we'll ship it out. The part that we're playing in it is making it accessible.

Larry Zilliox:

And then that final decision will be made at a later date, mm-hmm. Well, I want to direct our listeners to the webpage which is the veteranscurationprogramorg, and go to that webpage, take a look and can a veteran I don't know what to say is this sign up? Is this apply to be in the program through the webpage?

Gabi:

So if you head over to our webpage, there is a how to apply button.

Gabi:

You can pop in. It'll bring you to the application process. It's going to ask you which lab you would like to apply to and so you can put all four labs in there. You can put the one closest to you. We do consider all veterans, but we do have a preference due to how our program is running. We do have a preference for post 9-11 or anywhere 1990 and prior. Once those spots are filled up, we do have a preference for post 9-11 or anywhere 1990 prior. Once those spots are filled up, we open it up to just about anybody. So each lab. I think right now we have six technicians in our lab. San Mateo is a smaller lab so they're going to take a little less. Augusta is a beautiful lab. It's in like an historic building so they can take about the same as us. So once you pick your lab of interest, we accept applications year round. We do keep track of all of that what. We will start interviews for our next session around October and that session will start in November.

Larry Zilliox:

Okay, so November for six months, five, five months, and then another one.

Gabi:

And then in April we do it all over again.

Larry Zilliox:

Right, okay, so is it roughly 12 people a year.

Gabi:

I would say anywhere between 12 to like 20.

Gabi:

Our numbers prior to COVID were much higher, and so we are rebuilding our network and we are looking at I think San Mateo is our newest lab and St Louis is going through some changes or they just finished going through some changes, and so there was a lot of shifting going on with the program and I think everything's settling down.

Gabi:

We're looking at each session. How many more veterans can we help? It's the hours are going to be based on veteran need and what is feasible. Like the whole goal of the Veterans Curation Program is to help the veterans be in a better position than when they first came to us, and so some veterans, you know they need that 30 to 40 hour a week, and so that's going to pull away from how many people we can take in our lab. Some veterans can only do 20 hours a week, and so we do consider all of that as far as the veteran need, because we want able to do two sessions a year. If we can't select you this time, always, please reapply so that we can try and allow you into the space.

Larry Zilliox:

So for our local listeners, what are the lab opportunities here locally at the Alexandria facility?

Gabi:

Since I've been a part of the ALX lab, we have had anywhere between six to, I think, 10 or 11 in one session at a time.

Larry Zilliox:

Okay, and are they doing photographs? Are they doing documents? Are they doing cyber tooth, tiger tooths or whatever you brought here Listeners? I wish you could see it, but they have a box with some really cool stuff in it which I'll look at later. I don't want to take up our listeners' time with me kind of ogling stuff they can't see. But yeah, what would they do here in Alexandria, caroline?

Caroline:

So we have three different parts of the lab in terms of processing. There is the artifact side of things that I am the manager for and we do basic identification. We enter things into an Excel database. One of our assistant managers will run the photography lab, so she will teach technicians how to take all different kinds of photos with a museum-quality camera and they can earn a photography proficiency certificate from the Veterans Curation Program at the end of the session if they choose to do that. And then the other side of the lab is the archives. So that will be with Gabby and our other assistant manager teaching them how to scan documents, digitize everything, scan documents, digitize everything. We have some photographs and all kinds of odd documents that they will learn how to process. And then we didn't touch on kind of the second part of the program, but I'll let Gabby pick up the professional growth and development part. This is a really special thing that we just started.

Larry Zilliox:

And so, as a veteran who applies and gets accepted into the program, they're going to hit each one of those elements. They're not going to be just only one where they focus on just archives or just photography. They're going to do a stint in each one of those.

Caroline:

Yes, they will be trained in all of them. We try to keep somebody's preference into account, but it's not always possible, depending upon the directives that we are given. So they do kind of float when they can, but everybody is responsible for completing their professional growth and development hours referring to is every after the first month.

Gabi:

That's typically dedicated to the archaeologist, giving them a crash course into archaeology, anthropology, a lot of the regulations that must we must follow to process these collections. We then, after that first month, it's called professional growth and development. It's time paid in lab to work on resumes, linkedin's. We can do mock interviews with them. They could apply to jobs. If they need to do security clearance paperwork, they can work on that. They can go to hiring fairs, virtual or in person. These are all things that we can pay them to do while in the lab.

Gabi:

It is super beneficial of having experienced the VCP as a technician. It really does make a difference to have managers that have wonderful resumes and an educational background that can sit with you and kind of brainstorm what your goals are and explore creative ways to get there or traditional ways to get there. We've also had VSOs come into our space and we have guest speakers where they have the opportunity to do one-on-ones with those VSOs. We've had guest speakers that are like the DAV, the DVS. We've also had some more interesting kind of not so focused on the job portion but focused on Caroline's background and Caroline's field of work that we can show to the veterans just in case there is an interest in the field. But they're not really sure how to get into it, so we do. Field trips is another really cool part of the program. So it kind of turns out that the nerds no other nerds so we can go and visit museums, get some VIP tours.

Gabi:

We've gone to some really interesting places and really get a hands-on experience in a way that I wouldn't think I would have had without the BCP.

Larry Zilliox:

Right, right. So I apply and I get accepted, and I'm there for five months and I've learned each one of these things. Where do I go next? What do I do? What is this getting me ready for? What kind of job? I mean, it sounds like it's like two steps above a philosophy degree. I mean, it doesn't. There's not this isn't a big field. There's not, you know, a huge demand for archivists, because these days people don't hang on to stuff. I mean, let's face it, unfortunately, or it's already all digitized, yeah.

Larry Zilliox:

So yeah, where am I going after I go through this?

Caroline:

Yeah, we're not out to make archaeologists to make archaeologists. We looked at the past couple of years and really only a handful of technicians in the Alexandria lab have gone on to museum fields. That's what they wanted to do. So I think the short answer is whatever you want to do we're going to help you get there.

Caroline:

We've had technicians go on again to those museum jobs but a lot of our technicians go on to like HR or IT positions. We've had really any any job and we are kind of that, that boost or that stabilization. Whatever that technician needs, we can help them find grants for future schools. We can help them network. We can send cold emails all day Like we do not mind doing that. Whatever resources they need, be it personal or professional, we are going to help them get those for whatever field.

Larry Zilliox:

So I've got to believe that a lot of this training can translate into their lives and affect whatever employment they seek, especially when it comes to researching things, whether it's where to go eat, whether it's documenting things. Everybody finds themselves in need of documenting their life when they're buying a house or trying to keep track of any number of things, and it just sounds like this would be excellent training for veterans who one aren't sure what they're going to do. So this is a job and gives them some space to figure out what they're going to do, gives them some skills that they can use in their next employment, and I just think this is just a fantastic program. Again, listeners, it's veteranscurationprogramorg. I have two more questions. One is you have 10 people you're going to do. How many people apply? What are we looking at?

Gabi:

Initially, when I first joined the management team. When I first joined the management team, we were looking around 20 to 30 applications and then Caroline and I had spent a lot of time trying to rebuild our network and really expand that. Like I said previously, if I can't take you right now in this session, I'm going to throw you into the pot for the next one.

Gabi:

And so the most recent one was, I think, over 35. So we are moving forward with that goal. We want to make sure that the word is getting out and people are at least able to sit with us and talk to us to learn more about the program, because it is kind of an odd program.

Gabi:

We're not a skill bridge, we're not an internship or a fellowship. We're not trying to make archaeologists. We're trying to do exactly what you said give them transferable skills for the next job using the archaeology. And so, in my opinion, I would love to see around 40 to 50 applications in the next year per session 40 to 50 applications in the next year per session really widen that up.

Gabi:

And so, although if I can't take you right now and you kind of share what your interests are or you have questions, it doesn't stop us from being able to send you resources or to connect you with someone that would be a really good fit for whatever your goals are.

Larry Zilliox:

Sure, well, you know, it sounds like you're at like a 25, 28% acceptance rate, which beats most colleges. You see around 4% if you're lucky Listeners. The other thing I want to stress, too, is that this is a private company. This is a company that has a contract with the United States government. So when I direct you to this webpage that has a contract with the United States government, so when I direct you to this webpage, you will be relieved that I'm not telling you to hit that donate button.

Larry Zilliox:

Every veteran service organization that we talk about, I always direct everybody to go hit that button, donate. But you don't need to do that this time. Just go and read the webpage, think about it for yourself. Or if you have a relative or a friend or somebody that you work with who's struggling a little bit and hasn't really found their footing in your particular career field, please refer them to this. Send them the link for this and maybe it'll work for them. You know, the more we can get the word out, we want to broaden that pool of applicants, for sure. My last question I'm going to give this same question to each of you. So, caroline, where do you see, or how do you see, artificial intelligence impacting your career field.

Caroline:

Oh gosh, it is a tool. It's a very, very powerful tool. I tell this to veterans in the program who may have used AI to help them write a resume. That's great, but it is a tool and you are controlling the tool. So the same thing for archaeology AI can do some very powerful things. Ground penetrating radar can do some very powerful things, but it's not like we're not at a, you know, a Hollywood movie where the AI is taking over right. There's always going to be the human using it to accomplish a goal, to answer a question, to tell a story.

Larry Zilliox:

Gabby, what about you Really on the archival? I mean, I could really see it could impact on modeling for one thing, but also in just reviewing very large sets of data to find correlations. That is hard for humans sometimes to see. But what do you think will be the impact in the coming years?

Gabi:

I mean, I do see a benefit in using AI, or the potential of using AI, to gather information about a collection and creating patterns or seeing a trend. But as far as what my experience is with archiving, there's so many ways to organize a collection it really is going to depend on the collection itself, the notes that the previous archaeologists wrote down. It's almost like a puzzle, and if you're looking at it just one way to set a pattern, you may be missing the bigger picture that the original researchers and archaeologists were intending, and so you don't really want to put a personal bias, but I would also argue you wouldn't want to put a artificial intelligence bias to it either. I think that human factor is really going to matter when looking at these collections, seeing what they found, looking at their initial interpretations, talking to someone 60 years after the excavation, like Caroline looking at it and seeing what her interpretation is on it. I don't think that AI could replace something like that. I think that there's just a special thing that humans have that cannot be replaced.

Larry Zilliox:

Right, well, fascinating. The whole thing is just fascinating to me, and I can't thank you enough for making the trip out here from Alexandria. I know it's not far distance-wise, but time-wise it's quite a ways. Thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.

Gabi:

Thank you for having us. Thank you, Larry. I do want to just let you know and invite you. We do have an event coming up.

Larry Zilliox:

Oh, yes, tell us about that.

Gabi:

For sure. Yeah, it's in July. Our theme is an ice cream social. We have six tablers currently with different veteran organizations that handle different parts of veterans needs. Our veteran technicians will be there to kind of share their experiences. Do some demonstrations of the work that we have. We'll have a resume review table.

Gabi:

One of our admin members would join us to take that over. Fortunately, we were donated four tickets to a DC United game and it's not a raffle. We're not going to ask for any money. The way to sign up for that is to come into the lab, sign into our sign-in sheet and then we'll pull a name out and announce the winner. But it's between 2 and 5 on July 25th we're going to open the lab to the public, so we invite any veteran to come in, or if you are a service member that is getting ready to transition to become a veteran, please come into the lab, come see the space we're going to have some of our collection out that you guys can take a look at.

Gabi:

Our assistant lab manager that runs our photo lab will be doing demonstrations in there and it's a really good, I think, intro into that veteran community space.

Larry Zilliox:

Wow, wow. Well, it sounds awesome. There'll be plenty of cool things to do, and ice cream, I mean really if that doesn't grab you, I don't know what does, especially in July.

Larry Zilliox:

Absolutely, You'll be ready for ice cream, for sure. Well, listen, thank you so much. I can't thank you enough for coming out and sitting down with us. This has been great Well for our listeners. We'll have another episode next Monday morning at 0500. For those of you who'd like to get up early and listen to podcasts, you can find us on most major podcast platforms. We're also on YouTube and Wreaths Across America Radio. Thanks for listening.

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