The Silent Battle Within

What happens when the system fails those who've sacrificed everything to protect it? Frank Larkin, former Navy SEAL and CEO of Troops First Foundation, takes us on a heart-wrenching journey through military service, devastating loss, and his mission to transform veteran care.

After serving eight years in the Navy SEALs and decades in law enforcement, Frank watched his son Ryan follow a similar path of service. After 9/11, Ryan became a highly decorated SEAL medic who deployed four times to Iraq and Afghanistan. But something changed. Despite his outward strength, Ryan began struggling with sleep disturbances, anxiety, memory issues, and pain—symptoms attributed solely to PTSD and substance abuse. When he sought help, the system that promised to support him ultimately pushed him out.

The devastating truth emerged only after Ryan's suicide, when brain examination revealed severe microscopic damage uniquely related to blast exposure—damage that went completely undiagnosed despite extensive testing at premier military facilities. This revelation shattered the narrative around Ryan's struggles and exposed a critical gap in how we understand combat-related injuries. Contrary to common belief, research now shows that military personnel in training environments—particularly instructors repeatedly exposed to smaller blasts—may sustain more cumulative brain damage than those experiencing fewer large explosions in combat.

Through Troops First Foundation and the Warrior Call initiative, Frank now fights to prevent other families from experiencing similar tragedies. Their approach is elegantly simple yet profoundly effective: defeat isolation by encouraging veterans to connect with their "tribe." That single phone call or visit can pull someone back from the edge, reminding them they aren't alone and reconnecting them to community and hope.

Frank's advocacy extends beyond individual connections to systemic change, pushing for improved information sharing between military and VA healthcare systems, increased research funding, and a fundamental shift in how we view these invisible wounds—not as signs of being "broken," but as legitimate combat injuries deserving proper diagnosis and treatment.

Take action today. Visit warriorcall.org to learn how you can help defeat veteran isolation through the simple act of connection. As Frank reminds us, these veterans aren't damaged goods—they're hurt, and they deserve our help to heal.

Frank tells his story in this short video. Share it with a Veteran you know.

Chapters

• 0:28 Frank Larkin's Journey to the SEALs
• 4:50 Lessons from Walking a Beat
• 7:54 Ryan's Path to Becoming a SEAL
• 16:26 Four Combat Deployments and Changes
• 21:58 Unraveling and Institutional Betrayal
• 33:30 Discovering the Truth About Brain Injury
• 42:22 Warrior Call: Defeating Isolation
• 48:26 Call to Action and Legislative Goals
• 54:59 Podcast Wrap-up and Next Episode

Transcript

Larry Zilliox: 0:14

Good morning. I'm your host, Larry Zilliox, Director of Culinary Services here at the Warrior Retreat at Bull Run, and this week our guest is Frank Larkin. He's a former Navy SEAL, as well as sort of the words that I hate to say a Gold Star parent, and we'll get into that a little bit later. He's also the CEO of Troops First Foundation, which has an amazing program called Warrior Call. I really want to talk to him about that. When I did a little research and was looking into the organization and that program and it really is very similar to a program we have here at the retreat as well. So, frank, welcome to the podcast.

Frank Larkin: 1:00

Hey, thank you, Larry. I appreciate the opportunity being on today with your listeners and hopefully having a discussion that brings value to them.

Larry Zilliox: 1:12

Absolutely Listen. Our listeners love to hear about tier one operators, and so if you could just tell us a little bit about number one, why you joined the Navy and not the Air Force, and two, your time in the teams.

Frank Larkin: 1:29

Well, I go back towards the tail end of the Vietnam era and I was one of those that had a low draft number. You know, when that lottery came about, I was in high school and just about to graduate I decided that I was going to try to take my destiny in my own hands, which I have pretty much tried to do throughout my life, and I enlisted in the Navy For whatever reason. I had just an interest in the Navy Kind of a contradiction in, I guess, terms, but I really wasn't all that interested in riding the big gray hulls, so to speak, and floating around the world as much as I was and maybe doing some other things. I got interested in the SEAL teams from a good friend of mine that I had known for years, who had become a SEAL. It was not a very well-known option in the Navy at that time.

Frank Larkin: 2:37

In the Navy at that time you know we're talking, you know 1974, 75 timeframe that you know the teams were not something that anybody had a lot of information on and it was not an option that was pushed by the other commands. It was pushed by the other commands, in fact, when I initially applied my command, did everything they could to stonewall my application to the teams, but at the time they were looking for trainees and it was given a higher priority and I subsequently got my orders uh, you know, to go to training and then, uh, once through that uh, was assigned to uh an East coast field team. Uh, at that time they only had two team one on the West coast and team two in the East coast, and um just had a great run uh with them for a number of years until, quite frankly, I decided to get out to pursue a college degree with the full intention of coming back into the teams, but had gotten bitten in the meantime by the law enforcement bug and vectored towards a law enforcement career.

Larry Zilliox: 3:59

How many years were you in?

Frank Larkin: 4:00

Eight years, so it's a pretty good chunk of time. You know a lot of a lot of travel, a lot of different experiences. It was a formative time in my life. You know, you know, went in when I was 18 years old and you know, of course, you have all the answers, you know when you're 18. Sure, and uh, I just felt I wasn't ready for college and I just needed to experience what the real world was like, and I thought this was a pretty good path to do it.

Larry Zilliox: 4:30

Wow, and so you separated, you went into um federal law enforcement.

Frank Larkin: 4:36

Uh, initially I, uh, I went into local law enforcement. I walked the beat for about a year in the Philadelphia area Probably another formative experience, as you know. A white guy dropped into a neighborhood that wasn't exactly asking for a beep cop. They hadn't had one for about over 20 years. You know, walking the neighborhood I definitely, you know, stood out and despite, you know, I had, you know, my SEAL training and experience behind me, I was in no way prepared for that environment and I came to understand pretty quickly that I needed to figure it out or I was going to go home every night pretty black and blue. It was going to be a tough year on the street.

Frank Larkin: 5:36

It turned out to be, I would say, one of the best experiences of my life to really get into a community, earn their trust and really understand, you know, different sides of our society. You know we're always quick to pick up the lens that we're familiar with to look at things, and sometimes we fail to pick up, you know, the lens, up the lens that we're familiar with to look at things, and sometimes we fail to pick up, you know, the lens of the folks that we're dealing with or the culture that we're dealing with to understand how things really work, you know, on the ground. Sure, I came away from that experience with three things that I often pass on to young officers or public servants, and that is, you know, kind of an old piece of guidance that we got from our grandparents, and that is, you know, always treat people the way you want to be treated. And I've just added a little bit to that. And I said you also have to ask the question in reverse how do you think they need to be treated or they want to be treated More importantly reverse how do you think they need to be treated or they want to be treated more importantly.

Frank Larkin: 6:47

Second point was always treat others with respect, no matter where they come from, what they've done. And the third is never take anybody's dignity away, because the end result of that is usually you're going to wind up wrestling on the ground, Things aren't going to go well. And so the three legs of that stool have served me well through life as I've come in contact with different people, different cultures, something I've tried to pass on to a lot of the younger folks that are getting into different aspects of public service in our society, and I think it's, you know stage guidance that certainly has, as I said, not only served me well, but those that I think have listened and tried to do the same.

Larry Zilliox: 7:31

Yeah, absolutely so. There comes a time when your son Ryan follows in his father's footsteps and becomes a Navy SEAL. What was that like?

Frank Larkin: 7:41

Well, let me amend that statement a little bit. I don't think that he followed in my footsteps to mirror or walk the same path intentionally. I really do believe that it was a choice that he made independent of you know my prior service. He very much was affected by what happened on 9-11, as many of your listeners were. You know it's a time and place in our history, in our memory place in our history, in our memory that is permanently stamped. Everyone knows where they were, what they were doing and many of the people in our society from that time period were very much moved by what happened.

Frank Larkin: 8:35

He witnessed that event from a town where we lived just west of New York City. I was. My office at that time was a federal law enforcement office was located in the World Trade Center on 9-11. And I had gotten caught up in that attack, probably should have been dead about five times that day from different things that happened around me, to me and initially was reported missing. And he was completely enveloped in all that, witnessing it, as I said, from a high ground position just west of the city, saw the towers come down and I was able to get home that night and to my family. I knew I had to and I walked through the door at midnight that night. I'd been cut up and banged up. I was wearing a pair of sweats that were about three times larger than I was.

Frank Larkin: 9:36

After being decontaminated and walked in, I just saw the, just the, the, the looks of horror and just emotional, just trauma that on the faces of my family, especially my son, and he had at the time, was about 14 years old, was in middle school and for the next two weeks following 9-11, he just completely withdrew, became isolated, stopped talking, you know, stayed in his room. My wife approached me and said you know, something's wrong. You know, I meanwhile was down at ground zero as my agency's representative for the rescue recovery operations that were going on down there, and he said something's wrong with him, he's not handling this very well. And we had had about 18 people around us in the town that we lived who did not come home that night and he went to school with a lot of those kids, of those parents that were lost.

Frank Larkin: 10:44

And when I confronted him he said you know, dad, I need to understand what happened here. And you know, in a way that a 14-year-old expresses themselves, and said I want you to take me down to ground zero to see what happened. And I said, well, I just don't think that's going to be a good idea and I know your mom's not going to go for it. And he says but I just need to understand what happened. And I said, all right. I said I'll do this. Something tells me that you need to do this, do this, something tells me that you need to do this. I'll see what I can do. And got his mother to sign off on it, with a proviso that if I sold anything that indicated he wasn't dealing with it, that we were immediately out of there.

Frank Larkin: 11:34

And, as you can imagine, two weeks after 9-11, things were pretty nasty down there sure um, they had finally determined that the air to breathe that we were breathing was not safe, and so everybody was now in respirators after a week, a week and a half, of inhaling all that raw material. And I took him down there and dressed him up in a police jacket and a respirator and a helmet, so nobody could tell that it was a 14-year-old walking around. And we walked the debris field, which was immense, I mean blocks, blocks on blocks of southern Manhattan, and a scale of destruction I think that nobody really appreciates, unless they were there About three and a half hours later, basically had made our way all the way around. I tried to share what I was doing that day. I had lost a memory of some time, so I don't know if I got knocked unconscious or whatever, but I did the best to recall what had happened and then where things once were, and I said you had enough, have you seen it all? He said, yeah, I appreciate you bringing me down here, and that kind of was it.

Frank Larkin: 12:51

And he kind of came out of his shell, returned to being a 14-year-old, and then, some years later, he graduated from high school. He had been working, we had transferred. He had been working, we had transferred. I had been transferred back to Washington DC. We were living in the Annapolis area of Maryland and he was finishing up high school. And I said so what are you going to do with yourself now? You know he had not. I almost saw a little bit of B in him. He said I'm not ready for college. Though he was a smart kid, he just wasn't ready. And I kind of understood that and I said, well, you got a year to kind of do your thing. And then you know you're on the street and a little tough love. And he says, okay, I got it. And at the time he was diving as a salvage diver in the Annapolis areas, you know cleaning, you know, rich people's boat bottoms and changing their, their running gear out and so forth and recovering stuff that they had, you know, dropped over the edge of their boats. And he was doing that year round. So you know he's getting a little taste of what it was like to be in cold water and you know work in inclement conditions.

Frank Larkin: 13:58

But he came home about nine months after he graduated from high school and he said I just enlisted in the Navy and oh, by the way, I volunteer for the SEAL program. And I said you did what? And he says yep, that's just what I did. And at that point my eyes shifted to my wife who was reaching into the knife drawer. I'm thinking, here it comes. And I said to her hey, no, hold on. You know, this is the decision he's made. We've got to support him, whether we like it or not.

Frank Larkin: 14:34

So I never really pushed him in this direction, never really had a lot of conversation with him. I got him to talk to a number of guys, because we live in the Annapolis area next to the Naval Academy. A couple of the guys that had become SEALs and had been to theater already experienced war. And I said to them look, you know, don't hold back, give him the good bad ugly, you name it, don't sugarcoat anything. And so he spent nearly a day with those folks and came out of that even more invigorated. So off he went.

Frank Larkin: 15:14

He went into training, uh again. I, you know he wasn't a standout athlete, uh, but he physically was very adept. He was an intelligent kid. Not always applied it, uh, but had a unique ability to abstract, in other words, think second, third order effects, which made him very valuable in planning things. And much to my surprise, but certainly to a level of pride that I had never experienced. He made it through SEAL training, through their advanced warfare courses, and got to pin his trident on him. You know, just an unbelievable moment of pride and just respect for him and all the other you know, men and women who had stood up following 9-11 to go, as he said it, to be part of the solution, so that what happened on 9-11 never happens again. And I think your listeners that part of that time will fully understand that, that emotion and that that need to serve at that time.

Larry Zilliox: 16:19

Yeah.

Frank Larkin: 16:20

And he initially went off to become a special operations medic, went through that training, came out of the top of his class and immediately deployed to Iraq. Within days of that deployment he was in contact with the enemy, did a six-month pump there out in the western part of Iraq, fallujah Ramadi and then came back. You know they go through a whole reset, like many of the units do. And he found himself back in Iraq again, this time up north, on more of an HVI high-value individual pursuit mission. That lasted about six months. And then he volunteered to fill a gap in Afghanistan. They had lost a SEAL medic. They needed a senior medic to go in to fill the gap and he rogered up, came home for two weeks reset and pumped out for another six months in Afghanistan, which was kind of an interesting kind of comparison, because everyone immediately assumed that you know Iraq, you know Afghanistan, you know they're similar, they're both in the you know that part of the world. But they were polar opposites of each other. For those that had been to both places, different challenges, different landscape, just so it was a real eye-opener for him. So he came home from that deployment and that was the first indication that we had that things were changing. Of course he was now a frogman. He was, you know, been to three deployments. He was pretty experienced. But now we started to hear about hey, I'm having trouble sleeping, I'm having nightmares. He stopped smiling. He had a relationship, a breakup with his girlfriend that he had been living with for five years. You know things were changing.

Frank Larkin: 18:30

He went off to train as a SEAL sniper, finished up that training at the top of his class and then deployed again to Afghanistan, his fourth deployment, down to the Helmand area. His previous deployment had been in Aruzgan. You know both were hot areas and saw a lot of action. Came home from his fourth deployment and that's some more changes, but nothing that really was ringing the bell, so to speak. You know the alarm bells. You knew these deployments were tough. You knew that they were. You know getting their cage rattled and the fact that he was home in one piece. I was very grateful. Uh, he got assigned to be the senior enlisted, uh, what they call the lead petty officer of their special operations urban combat training for all the close-in quarter battle. You know tactics and so forth, and what I didn't realize at that time that you know, it's one thing you know you're in combat and so forth and you're being exposed to. You know it's one thing. You know you're in combat and so forth and you're being exposed to explosive effects.

Frank Larkin: 19:36

But, as he was, in this role as this pre-deployment trainer in this close quarter battle scenario. They were constantly using breaching charges and flashbang or concussion grenades and they were using their weapon systems that they were going to deploy with and you know they were on the rocket ranges, the mortar ranges and so forth. So he was constantly being exposed to the blast over pressures from these weapons systems and he spent, you know better, you know a year in that role and then we started really starting to see things kind of come apart in that role. And and then we started really starting to see things kind of come apart, uh, it started developing a bounce of anxiety. Never, you know, he never had anxiety issues. Depression became hyper-vigilant, uh, stopped smiling, he continued to have sleep issues, they, they were just getting worse.

Frank Larkin: 20:30

He was in pain. You know a lot of these folks are, are, I mean, they're all in pain. Uh, whether it's physical pain, you know, emotional pain, spiritual pain, a combination thereof, they're in pain and a lot of them, you know, their first choice, their first, you know, go-to remedy is what? Drugs and alcohol, alcohol, yeah, and then followed up by yeah, you're right, the drugs. You know, because the way our system dealt with those issues is they, they, you know they focus on treating the symptoms, not the root cause. And so he started, you know they started putting them on all these prescription drugs to deal with that stuff mood stabilizers and he just continued to come apart. He was able to get an appointment to NICO, which was the National Intrepid Center of Excellence in Bethesda, maryland, to come up for extensive studies for about a month. They put them through every conceivable imaging, you know evaluation. They did blood tests on him, you name it. You know tooth to tail. You know talk. You know they evaluated his mental status and diagnosed that he was suffering from, you know, severe PTSD and no mention of, you know, any brain injury or even though he was having issues with his vision and hearing and balance and memory was shot. It was all focused on alcohol abuse and PTSD.

Frank Larkin: 22:13

No longer safely operate or do his job as the LPO at that training section and they moved him into more of an admin position while they directed him towards some of the low-hanging fruit that they were offering to deal with his issues mainly focused on alcohol and you know that didn't go well and he just continued to unravel. They they, you know started to hang labels on him and make judgments that you know justified their assessments and their actions and and it became clear that they were kind of putting stuff together to get him out. You know they're kicking up to the curb. This is despite. This is despite, you know continued policy and and and broadcast that hey look, if you're, if something's wrong, if you're not feeling good, come and get help. We're here for you.

Frank Larkin: 23:03

You know, um, that's, that's not what happened. You know when, when he stepped forward to get help, it got weaponized against him and I'm sure you know a lot of your listeners will and I are are nodding that, uh, they experienced the same. It's, it's what we've now come to call or at least it's catching traction institutional betrayal. It's. You know, when you step up on the line and you swear to do everything you can to protect this nation, to do the best for the service that you're serving, and then, all of a sudden, you know when, when you need some help or things happen to you, you know that that entity you know turns on you or it stops listening to you or it, you know, if it's too hard, it kicks you to the curb. It's damaged goods.

Larry Zilliox: 23:53

This is something that's really prevalent in the tier one community, in that I think it's a command issue where they want to help you and they say they're going to help you and they will help you to a certain extent, but then they're going to look at you and say, look, you're no longer able to fulfill the role that you had. You need to get out so the VA can help you. We can't carry you anymore. And I see that as a command issue. It also leads to that sense of betrayal which then just adds moral injury onto the pot, and it also then keeps other tier one operators from self-identifying issues, because they see what's going to happen and when they know it's going to take them out of the game and they don't want to, they don't want to.

Larry Zilliox: 24:41

This is what they do, this is their life. And I mean we just hear this story over and over and over again and I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what the answer is because I see it from the command staffing level. They're like well, you know we need to fill that position, but you can't do both. You can't do both at the same. Come forward, we will help. And it turns out, we will help you get out is what they're really saying.

Frank Larkin: 25:07

You know, larry, I couldn't have said it better and thank you for saying what you said. You outlined it perfectly. I don't think there's any malicious intent. But you know, these services are about operations and as long as you can contribute to operations, you're good to go. When you no longer can contribute to operations, then you become a weight, an anchor. You occupy space, you take up oxygen that they need, you know, to dedicate towards fulfilling their. You know resourcing and manpower their mission. You name it, and that's where a lot of this.

Frank Larkin: 25:43

You know, as I talk to veterans and special operators, conventional guys and gals that you know have been on a rocky road, I mean this is pretty much. As soon as we talk about this issue of institutional betrayal, they literally leap out of their seat. You know, become very emotional and so this is, to your point, something that's a leadership issue. Now, okay, full agreement with you, know the need for good order and discipline and operational priorities and so forth, but you know, to your point, you can't speak out both sides of your mouth and say that we're not going to leave anybody behind, but then you turn around and there's a whole debris field behind us. So I think you know part of it is that we have not effectively equipped, you know, our operational leaders with the information that they need to be able to deal with these situations. So there's a education, knowledge gap. And then it hasn't been backstopped with the resources to be able to effectively you know, rehabilitate and recover these folks.

Frank Larkin: 26:51

Yeah, I see a great separation between the medical enterprise and the operational medical enterprise in the sense that, yeah, all these units have their medical cadres, but how closely are they really tied to their command elements? How much are they really advocating for those injured warriors, or are they just trying to tell the command what they want to hear? And that's not in all cases, but in many cases that's exactly what happens. You know the imaging that would have shown, you know, brain damage, or a blood marker that would have shown that his you know testosterone levels, his cortisol levels and other hormones and chemicals are out of whack. Then, you know most of it defaults towards a mental health diagnosis, because that's kind of what they've been calling it since World War I, when we first introduced explosives to the battlefield. You know they've been calling it since World War I, when we first introduced explosives to the battlefield.

Frank Larkin: 27:52

You know they've been calling it all types of different names Battlefield psychosis, you know warrior's heart Shell shock, you know PTSD shell shock. You name it To explain, but it's the same thing. Yes, these people look 100% Physically, they look 100% intact. I mean, it's one thing if you have somebody that's missing a leg, an arm or has been burned or somewhat disfigured, I mean that's very visible, yeah. But these invisible wounds are tangible, are real to the people that are living them and even more so to their families that are struggling to understand what's going on.

Larry Zilliox: 28:30

Yeah, they're very debilitating, for sure. I do want to direct my listeners to something that you said was that when his role changed operationally and he went into more of an instructor role and then was therefore subjected to more of the blasts, we did an episode back in season two it's episode six with Dr James Stone, who is a research scientist, university of Virginia.

Larry Zilliox: 28:59

Yeah. So Dr Stone came on and it was fascinating about how they started thinking okay, we need to study door kickers, but it turned out that the instructors from the EOD and other courses that were subject to many more smaller blasts were the ones that were being subjected to real health issues. And so I want our listeners to listen to that episode, episode six in season two, because it's a fascinating look at how this issue, thank goodness, is starting to be studied, but it shows that the general thinking which those operational and in the field might be subject to, you know, a large explosion three times during a six-month deployment that's not going to have the same impact. And please go back and listen to that issue be or that episode, because it was really, really fascinating and really, you know, it really made me think when you said that's when he started to have real problems yeah.

Frank Larkin: 30:05

So james stone is a pie in here, one of the pioneers in this, and he's got his teeth in this like a dog on a bone, trying to, you know, understand and figure this out, and I'm glad that you had had him on and he's right. I mean, as we, you know, kind of dug into this, we found out, at least for the GWAT veterans to assume, that 100% of this exposure from our weapons systems and so forth is coming from the training environment, which is something we can control. So this all came to light, larry, when Ryan had to get out.

Frank Larkin: 30:49

He was honorably discharged and, to your point, you know, you know they, basically, you know, you said it perfectly. You know, uh, you know, we've done all we can, can for you. You know, no easy fix here, we don't have time for this. And then it was all about getting them out. Yeah, and so he honorably discharged, you know, with the, with the, you know advice, hey, the VA will do a better job, they're prepared, they're better prepared to take care of you Cause, cause, we've done everything we can, yeah, and so he is out for about a year and he's, he's gone to the VA, which is, you know, in itself was a challenge.

Frank Larkin: 31:33

I you know, in itself was a challenge. You know, I think I'm I don't think I'm a complete idiot, but you know I'm trying to shepherd them through their maze of bureaucracy.

Frank Larkin: 31:45

And here's a guy that had once been, you know, on the top of the mountain as a highly revered decorated. You know SEAL operator now can't even organize his way through the day, let alone try to figure out the decorated. You know SEAL operator now can't even organize his way through the day, let alone try to figure out the VA's. You know maze of Forms and apps.

Larry Zilliox: 32:01

Of that organization and everything they throw at you.

Frank Larkin: 32:03

And people that are talking to you have no clue about what you've been through. Yeah, and yet are making these assessments. Yeah, so you know to him he was losing, you know he was becoming disenfranchised, he was losing trust in them, as he had with the defense health side of it when he was in the military. So we're sitting around a fire one night and something he constantly was saying that came back to haunt me and that was you know, nobody's listening to me. You know, they just keep telling me I'm crazy, something's wrong with my head. Nobody's listening to me.

Frank Larkin: 32:41

And that was reinforced by all the drugs and so forth that they had prescribed him over a two year period. You know 40 different. You know potions, lotions, creams, all the way up to high-end psychotropics that made him feel like he wasn't even in his own body. And he says to me I'm banged up inside, I don't think I'm going to live all that long. And of course, as a father, I'm saying to him hey, look, I'm here. I, you know, I got your back. You know we're swim buddies here. I, you know, I got your back.

Frank Larkin: 33:14

you know we're swim buddies, you know we'll get through this. He says I, I know, I know, dad, I know you're here, but I just, if anything happens to me, I want you to donate my brain or my body for traumatic brain injury breacher syndrome research. And you know, most of your folks know that breachers are those that have the controlled explosives and they blow through doors, walls or whatever else needs to be popped. And I said you know, let's, let's not even talk about that. He says no, dad, you got to promise me. So I said, yep, I promise, but nothing's going to happen to you.

Frank Larkin: 33:46

And sure enough, a month later, and I had asked him hey, you're not thinking about hurting yourself, or? And he said no, I'll never go that way. And unfortunately, about a month, month and a half later, I found him in the basement of our home and he had taken his life. He was dressed in a SEAL Team 7 T-shirt red, white and blue board shorts and had illuminated a shadow box I had made for him with all his medals and insignias and stuff, and it just instantly ripped my heart in half. I mean, I have had and I don't want to sound like I'm beating my chest or this is not something I'm bragging about, but in my line of work for 35, 40 plus years, you know, I've you know, it's all been about saving other people.

Frank Larkin: 34:41

And in the end I couldn't save my own son and I carry that burden. So anyway, we we satisfied his wish to get and donate his brain for a research effort that was looking at blast exposure and its relationship to traumatic brain injury. And two months later they called us in and said that you know, your son Ryan, had an undiagnosed severe case of microscopic brain injury that is uniquely and they emphasized, uniquely related to blast exposure. They said we only see this pattern of injury and those individuals that have been exposed to blasts, and it's not the same as CTE, the chronic traumatic encephalopathy that you hear from the football players, and the physical impact of playing sports. Though it shares the same disadvantage, you can't see this in a living person. Yet we just don't have the technology.

Frank Larkin: 35:38

And, as I said, he had been to NICO and had all these extensive tests done and they never saw anything in his brain, even though he had a whole profile of exposure to IEDs, to training with know, training with heavy weapon systems being subjected to explosions and so forth. And a lot of the symptoms that he was manifesting were, you know, related to, you know, traumatic brain injury. But guess what? They're also related to PTSD. So, because the mental health community had been. You know largely, you know the guiding, you know path for a lot of these, you know treatments and assessments and so forth. Then everything kind of pointed towards or emphasized was the PTSD and the mental health the mental illness aspect of it.

Frank Larkin: 36:28

Sure, so that kind of broke things open. So that kind of broke things open and with that information I went to the SEAL command and I got to give them great credit, as much as I had, you know, conflicted emotions in the sense that, hey, you dudes screwed this up, you missed the signs, you were not true to our ethos of not leaving somebody behind and in some cases because they didn't know what they didn't know. In other cases it was because they were trying to do the right thing, the right way, maybe all the wrong way. And then you had those individuals that were more worried about their rank and career and not having to deal with a broken frogman that just wanted this problem to go away as fast as they could, you know, kick him to the curb. But I will say, when I put this information in front of them, it completely shattered the story. Or you know the account of Ryan's death that had been formulated and I got to give great credit to the SEAL Admiral that was in charge of, and I got to give great credit to the SEAL Admiral that was in charge of the community. He says there's something here. This is not what I was told and we need to dig into this.

Frank Larkin: 37:41

And sure enough, the more and more we got into it, the more we started to realize there was something here. We need to get it on top of it, need to get it on top of it. And so, as things started to develop, you know folks like Jane Stone got involved from UVA, Dan Pearl, you know a world-renowned neuropathologist from Bethesda, Walter Root, who discovered this injury. You got Brian Edlow up in Boston, Mass General, Harvard, other great researchers and folks that started dogpiling on, hey, what's actually going on here. So the body of evidence is building and it's bringing a greater level of attention, not only, you know, from the outside centers of excellence that are looking at this, but within the Department of Defense, and certainly Congress has now picked up on this. So you know, really, I see, you know, as far as this blast over pressure and this brain trauma, the way the greatest wins will occur in the prevention side. But in the meantime we've got people that are hurt. Now We've got to figure out how to better treat them.

Larry Zilliox: 38:51

Yeah, clearly, based on somebody's job description, their what they do, this needs to be a presumptive condition. You can't just wait for somehow, certain symptoms to materialize. I think you got to look at these tier one operators and anybody in these training roles, whether they're Marines or Air Force or Navy. If they're working in a job that subjects them to repeated blast exposure, this is to be a presumptive condition, not only throughout their medical treatment while they're in service. But the VA needs to take a look and start to flag these people by the job description that there's a higher risk for this. I mean, it's just there's enough evidence out there that this is an issue that something like that can't be done.

Larry Zilliox: 39:48

I don't understand why it's not being done and, like you say, because the symptoms parallel, they're being dealt with on a mental health issue when there's a lot more going on, and unfortunately I don't. I really don't see a solution to that issue anytime soon. But I want to. I want to focus in on the organization to the Troops First Foundation and Warrior Call. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what they do and really what you want them to know about the Troops First Foundation and Warrior Call?

Frank Larkin: 40:29

And thank you for the question. And really, troops First came about because of the issues related to those coming home from war and initially it was focused on taking you know a lot of personalities and so forth overseas to meet with the troops to kind of, you know, pump up their morale and give them you know something different to think about, but then evolved into a program called Proper Exit, where Raquel, who is the CEO of Groups, first recognized that a lot of the folks at Walter Reed all they wanted to do was go back to their units. As badly as they were banged up, you know, the one thing they hadn't come is they want to be reunited with their units and they had this huge gap because they were medevaced off the battlefield. They were taken back to you know a role facility for treatment and probably owned a lawn stool, and back to Bethesda or down in San Antonio, and this all happened, like in some cases within 24 to 48 hours, and anything that was of value to them, anything that represented who they were, was cut away on the battlefield. They had nothing and no way to communicate with their folks and their teammates had no way to communicate with them. So they came up with this proper exit, where they started taking folks back to the war theater, back to the units, the areas of operation for that closure that they never had when they were scooped off the battlefield and that evolved into some other programs for housing canine sponsoring folks, for some therapies and so forth. And then out of that, just by the evolution of how things were progressing, came Warrior Call, which is simply a recognition that isolation is a huge factor that we see with veterans that are in a tough place, lose trust as they lose hope, they slide, you know, into dark places and they close off from folks and from family and they become isolated. And you know, the further they get into that period of isolation, the greater the chance that something bad is going to happen.

Frank Larkin: 42:51

And as we came to understand that our whole objective was to defeat isolation and we said we needed to keep this simple and we needed to deputize people to help us, it wasn't going to be any one organization. So you had mentioned at the beginning of this that you have a similar type of outreach American Leads and some others. They call different names, but it's really the same concept and that is hey, reach out to those that have served, reach out to teammates, to first responders, make a call to them, take a call from them if they're calling you, because sometimes they just need to talk to somebody and then have an honest conversation. You know, just kind of see how they're doing. You know, and it's something as simple as hey, tommy, I was just going through. You know, I saw your name, I just thought I'd give you a call. I know we haven't talked in years, but you know, I just thought, hey, I'll call and we'll kind of shoot. You know, shoot the bull for a while and and and kind of get that conversation going. Or you know, sally, you know you, you, you see the phone at Sally calling and you know, you know you serve together in Iraq. You know she, she just needed to talk to somebody. So you're, you know you answered the phone and and it just that contact or or or a drive-by visit, you know it, just a hey, check on it, see what's going on.

Frank Larkin: 44:18

It's unbelievable how much feedback we've gotten from folks that said that they were in a bad, a dark, isolated place and that phone call, that conversation whether it was over the phone or a face-to-face visit pulled them back from the edge. You know, reinforced that one. They're not alone. There are people out there that care, and that's important, and that it connects them back to their tribe that they've gotten disconnected from, which is really important to be part of a tribe, to remain part of something, to be part of a tribe, to remain part of something. And then, you know, to have hope. Have hope and understand that there are people working they're there, interested in helping them that are working on these issues.

Frank Larkin: 45:08

At times, you know, it doesn't move as fast as we want it to, but it's moving. Move as fast as we wanted to, but it's moving. And so that's where we're trying to generate this momentum with all the foundations, the VSOs, just to kind of make this like part of our culture, to make these calls to honor those that have served in uniform, like I said, whether it's a military uniform or as a first responder, because you remember, there are domestic warriors. Our first responders are those that are operating inside the wire and they deal with just some unbelievable challenges themselves. So that's essentially what Warrior Call is. We have a National Warrior Call Day, which is just a kind of a mark in the sand. It's the first Sunday after Veterans Day, but we really want this to be a unity of effort with all the VSOs, all the foundations that kind of, push this out to their membership, to their listeners, and say, hey, I'm going to be part of this. This is too easy to pick up my phone and call a buddy.

Larry Zilliox: 46:13

Yeah, yeah for sure. Well, listeners, the first thing I want you to do is visit the webpage, and it's warriorcallorg O-R-G. Take a look at it and think about you know how you can help. Then go over to troopsfirstfoundationorg, which is basically the parent organization of Warrior Call, and it's there that you're going to see that red donate button that you see on every VSO webpage out there. I want you to bang on it and give whatever you can I know that you hear me say this for every nonprofit that comes on, but they all need money. This isn't free and please, you know, hit that donate button. Check out every inch of these webpages, because there's some really valuable resources there and information. And look, if you're part of a Legion or VFW post, share it with your members. Get the word out.

Larry Zilliox: 47:17

A lot of it's very similar to our program that we have here, which is instructions on how to save 988 plus one in an Android phone or an iPhone, and what we want our veterans to do is save that number in their buddy's phone and use those instructions. If you're not in the area here, you can download that brochure right on our webpage. It'll tell you how to save that number. Put it in your buddy's phone and say look, if you're having a bad day, call me. If I don't answer, don't go through with what you're thinking. Press this button and talk to a VA counselor. So please check out Warrior Call, share it, and they're just doing amazing work and saving one life at a time. It's convincing people to put a pause in that thought process and you can do that by reaching out and calling people you served with. It's that simple, really. What's the one thing that you want our listeners to know the most about? Troops First Foundation and Warrior Call.

Frank Larkin: 48:36

Well, one of the things we hadn't talked about that is part of the calculus here is that we're trying to influence some legislative change and so forth. That helps to focus more on what we've been talking about Not only the blast over pressure and invisible wounds, but really the need to not leave any more of our veterans behind. And you talked about the VA. You know whether it's defense department or the VA. We've got to help them succeed. And right now there's a big gap between the information sharing between the defense department and the VA that we're trying to work on right now with improving their case management system as far as health records, making it across that canyon that exists right now between Defense, health and the VA, because a lot of our veterans complain about that. Hey, you know I have to keep telling my story over and over again when I go to the VA and there's no continuity, and you know. So we're trying to help with that.

Frank Larkin: 49:40

There's some legislation coming out that is going to hopefully direct the VA to take a more aggressive role towards these invisible wounds and blast over pressure considerations beyond just the mental health, because they go hand in hand. It's not one or the other, but again, it's really our efforts now are to get together with organizations like Willing Warriors and others. The big idea, so, is to have a unity of effort to kind of harmonize our voice so that we can get the attention of Congress, we can get the attention of the administration and their departments, so that we can solve this and that you know we are not leaving a huge debris field behind us as a consequence of all these men and women who stood up and raised their right hand to serve this nation and protect our values and ensure our security. So, you know, as far as troops first and warrior call, that's what we're pointed at. We're trying to keep it simple but yet be the voice of the veterans, much like your organization and others that you know, keep moving the ball forward and hopefully slap the table one day and say you know, we have zero suicides.

Frank Larkin: 50:52

We have, you know. We figured this out and I do. One's too many. One suicide is too many. The other thing I would say is our solutions have to be kind of configured for one size fits one, not one size fits all, which means and you brought this up and it's very, very much a factor we have to learn how to listen to these folks. And they're not broken, they're not damaged goods. They're hurt, they're injured, so let's help them heal.

Larry Zilliox: 51:24

Yeah, it's an injury that results from combat. There's just absolutely no doubt about it and it's got to be really viewed as though it's the same as if somebody lost an arm or a leg. It's an injury and it needs to be treated. So much more can be done and I tell you I really appreciate all the work that you guys are doing and just getting the word out. It's huge and listeners, you know, call your congressperson and they all have a veteran liaison somebody in their office that all they do is deal with veteran issues. Find out who that is and send them links. Send them a link to the podcast and say, hey, you need to pay attention to this. Send them information about Dr Stone's work and email them and get on a first name basis with them. Share as much information as you can with them about what's going on in your community when it comes to veteran affairs.

Larry Zilliox: 52:25

Because it comes down to money. It's all about funding and we can talk till we're blue in the face and we can wish that this kind of research is done, but unless Congress actually funds it, unless they give money to the VA that's earmarked for research about this, it's not going to happen. That money will be spent elsewhere. So, if you're going to talk to your congressional representatives, focus in on funding and say this is a problem, it needs research and that research needs funding. What are you going to do to make that happen? So please reach out to your representatives and send them information and say this is a serious problem. It needs to be dealt with. Frank, I can't thank you enough for coming on today and talking about your story and I know I speak for our listeners about. We're just devastated by the loss of your son and he's such a patriot and an amazing young man that sacrificed for his country and we're just sorry you had to go through that.

Frank Larkin: 53:47

Well, you know, this is all about, you know, preventing others from having to walk this path of pain, and it's very refreshing to talk to someone like you who gets it. I want to tell you, you know, express to your listeners that you know, larry, you get it. You've obviously, you know, stitched this together. You know the right way. You're spot on with your assessments. I look forward to working with you in the future. I hope that, again, collectively, as I said, we can influence the changes, so that you know we take care of those who took care of us.

Larry Zilliox: 54:26

Yeah, for sure. Well, I know I'm a commissioner on the local county veterans commission and we'll be talking about this at our next meeting for sure. So really, I appreciate it so much. Thank you for coming on.

Frank Larkin: 54:42

You bet, and thank you to your listeners too. Have a great day.

Larry Zilliox: 54:44

Yeah. So hey, listeners, we'll have another episode next Monday morning. In fact, we're going to start up our series again on Northern Virginia Military Museums with. Our guest will be Gary Powers Jr, who started the Cold War Museum over in Vent Hill, was shot down over Russia and maybe most of our listeners know his story from the Tom Hanks movie Bridge of Spies. But Gary will be with us next week for a great episode. So until then, you can find us on all major podcast platforms. We're on YouTube and Wreaths Across America Radio. So thanks for listening.