Welcome Home - A Podcast for Veterans, About Veterans, By Veterans
Welcome Home is a Willing Warriors and the Warrior Retreat at Bull Run project. The program highlights activities at the Warrior Retreat and issues impacting all Veterans. For questions or feedback, please email us at podcast@willingwarriors.org.
Welcome Home - A Podcast for Veterans, About Veterans, By Veterans
Shooting From the Sky: Tales from an AC-130 Gunship Crew
Anthony Dyer's journey from loading weapons to manning the guns of one of the world's most intimidating aircraft reveals the extraordinary path of a combat aviator in special operations. As a retired Air Force Combat Special Missions Aviator who served aboard the legendary AC-130 gunship, Dyer takes us inside a world few civilians ever glimpse.
The conversation opens with Dyer's early career decisions, initially following his father's footsteps into the Air Force as a weapons loader before cross-training as a firefighter. It wasn't until a pivotal moment of self-reflection that Dyer made the life-changing decision to pursue special operations aviation. "I don't want to leave cracks, I want to leave craters," he recalls thinking, a powerful metaphor for seeking greater impact through his service.
Listeners gain unprecedented access to the technical marvels of the AC-130 gunship, an aircraft Dyer describes as "NASCAR with a gun." He explains how this modified cargo plane flies in a left-hand "pylon turn" with its arsenal—including a 105mm howitzer that recoils 49 inches—mounted on the aircraft's left side. The crew coordination required to operate this complex weapons system while supporting special forces on the ground offers a masterclass in precision under pressure.
The emotional weight of 14 deployments becomes evident as Dyer opens up about the psychological toll of combat operations. His candid discussion of developing an alcohol dependency during his final year of service and the ultimatum from his wife that pushed him toward recovery provides a raw look at the hidden battles many veterans face. The transition challenges—from the seemingly simple adjustment to civilian clothing to the profound loss of purpose—resonate with veterans of all eras.
Dyer's book "Moon Child: The Roots and Wings of a USAF Combat Special Missions Aviator" emerged from therapy sessions where writing became a healing tool. His vulnerability in sharing both triumphs and struggles has created a powerful connection with readers who find comfort in his message that "it's okay not to be okay." For anyone fascinated by military aviation, interested in special operations, or seeking to understand the veteran experience, this conversation offers invaluable insights from someone who's lived at the tip of America's spear.
Good morning. I'm your host, Larry Zilliox, Director of Culinary Services here at the Warrior Retreat at Bull Run. This week our guest is Anthony Dyer. He is a retired Air Force Special Operations Aviation Mission Specialist who crewed on a number of different aircraft, but the one that I'm the most interested in is the AC-130, which is a um gunship that we'll we'll talk a lot about. I had the uh good fortune of touring one uh once many years ago when I was stationed on Guam. We only saw one, don't even know why it was out there. He is the author of a brand new book that's just come out called Moon Child, The Roots and Wings of a USAF Combat Special Missions Aviator. So, Anthony, welcome to the podcast.
AnthonyDyer:Hey, that thanks for having me, Larry. It's a privilege and honor to be here, man. Thank you.
LarryZilliox:So I always ask my guests, usually it's why did you join the Army or the Navy instead of the Air Force? Uh, because as an Air Force veteran, I'm always curious about that. I know from my own experience and being with Army and on Army bases and being uh at the Navy base in Guam and on board a ship for a tour and seeing how they live. I was always thankful that I joined the Air Force. But uh, why did why did you join the Air Force?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, so uh I turned uh you know 17 already turned 18 my last year in uh in high school there. And you know, my dad gave me the typical, you know, dad-to-son talk there, like a lot of us probably had, but it was like, you know, you're at this age, it's time to either get a job, go to college, or get out, you know. And I and I didn't want to nine to five, and I definitely didn't want to go to college. And, you know, so at first I talked to a Navy recruiter, and he was talking about being on a boat for six months, and then I talked to an army recruiter, then I talked to my dad, and you know, he uh he was in the Air Force for four years down at um McDill there. This is way before I was born. But you know, he's told me about the quality of life and uh honestly the quality of people in the Air Force, and you know, at that point I know I had a decision to make, and uh, you know, a couple months later I was on my my flight to San Antonio, Texas, there July 18th of 2000, and uh basic training. Did you go into the Air Force thinking you wanted to fly? So I that's a good question. So I I knew that aviation, like in some way, even at my uh young age, I'd end up getting like a uh helicopter flight in the Blue Ridge Mountains up there or pigeonforge that area to the sea. And um, you know, I was really young at that point. And um I knew at some point in that moment that aviation in some way, shape, or form would take uh, you know, take a big part of my life. And I want to be a part of that. And I, you know, I didn't come in as a uh as a special missions aviator, as aero gunner, as they used to call us, but I came in as a weapons loader and I did that for five years and then um firefighting for five years, and then 2010, you know, I get to this uh, I guess it's another fork in the road, and I'm actually home on leave in a small town and at a pizza parlor and you know I look out and you know I see the same cracks in the road, man. And you know, what I'm getting at is like the same people doing the same thing, you know, and you know, I realize at that moment that you know I don't want to leave cracks, I want to leave craters, and you know, at that point made a decision to to get in the fight, if you will, not sit on the sideline and and find the mighty uh AC Metropy gunship, as you mentioned, and uh uh the mighty 16th Special Operations Squadron.
LarryZilliox:Yeah, and so you cross-trained, you could it sounds like you cross-trained three times. I I did, yeah, yeah.
AnthonyDyer:So technically three different jobs there. So uh, you know, in 2010 I did the uh it was called the uh NCO Corp uh retraining program back then. And um, you know, they give you a list of jobs you qualify for. I had to retake the ASBAB and got my score up there, and then um you know I had one choice and one choice on, and it was uh, you know, aerial gunner.
LarryZilliox:And so what did you think about being an Air Force firefighter?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, so it's it's not what a a lot of people may think, you know, it's um it's a good thing, but there's there's not that much action, if you will, and like, you know, everything on base is so fire safe, you know. And um, I may have seen like three structure fires the the whole time I did that, but you know, it was uh we're really cool. We had a firehouse with the guys, man, a lot of a lot of pranks, a lot of jokes, you name a lot of cooking. Um it was back then, you know, 24 on, 24 off, and then every two weeks you get what you call the Kelly Day. That'd be your three days off in a row. So a lot of downtime, a lot of funny moments, and then when it was time to work, we worked.
LarryZilliox:Right. When you decided to cross-train, you you looked at flying, and did you pick the AC 130 gunship or or were you thinking about maybe a black hawk or something else?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, so I uh I knew that I wanted to be in um like like special operations, you know, and in some way, you know, shape or form, and I physically like I realistically couldn't be like an operator, so I was like, what's the next best thing? You know, I was like making sure those guys get home on the ground, right? And uh so I chose AC-130, and then I had the Pavehawk as the the second was so right.
LarryZilliox:So if you would for our uh listeners uh that who might not be familiar with the AC 130 gun chip is, it's um it's a crazy plane, there's no other plane in the world like it, and it has a tremendous amount of firepower just built into the aircraft, including a uh crew served 105 howitzer. Um so yeah, tell uh tell our listeners what this plane is all about and what it's used for.
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, yeah. So the AC-130, uh sort sort of the the main purpose of it is to provide that that timely and precise, that close air support for the unconventional forces. And what I mean by that is like you know, your seals, usually your green berets, your rangers, uh, you know, jobs like that, the guys on the ground. And then um, you're basically giving that close air support with uh, like you mentioned, uh 105 Howitzer, you know, and um really it's a beautiful thing, man. Back then we had 13 crew members all working together, and then we had four gunners back then to get that, you know, that 10 rounds per minute out, which I know that seemed like a lot, but man, you could imagine being on the business end of that, you know, on the ground, just seeing that firepower. And then back then we also had a 40 mil Beauforce cannon, and what the Air Force did was you know, they took uh back in the day in like the Vietnam era, like an anti-aircraft gun, a 40 mil Beauforce for the Navy, and they put it on the side of this uh this cargo aircraft, and the AC-130, you know, the A stands for attack and then sees the cargo. So it's uh basically it's like uh you know, I leave every mission like uh looking like a coal miner from all the you know the soot and uh stuff like that. But right it's it's really yeah, it's it's a really fun job, man. I it was probably probably my favorite best job I ever had, honestly.
LarryZilliox:What did it sound like when you fire uh a 105 howitzer inside of a plane like that?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, so the so it recoils 49 inches, just uh you know, that's the maximally loud to sort of paint a picture. And it was like if you were to put a tank cannon on the side of a this cargo aircraft, you know, and even with with foamies in and then your flight helmet, like it's still still pretty loud, you know what I mean? And um, yeah. What's unique about it though is like a lot of people ask if it moves the aircraft, you know, and like sure, you know, you you'll be in this left-hand bank, you know, it's like NASCAR with a gun, you know, and it'll it'll recoil the ship a plane of ship, I believe it's like 10 degrees or something like that in the orbit.
LarryZilliox:So that was my next question, too. And and so all these weapons are mounted on the left side of the aircraft.
AnthonyDyer:Correct, yes.
LarryZilliox:Yeah, and and that's why you're flying in that left uh circle.
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, yeah, the the the left hand uh turn is uh often referred to as the pylon turn. And um, you know, basically the the pilots fly in this perfect circle, you know, uh orbiting the the the operation area, you know.
Speaker 01:Right.
AnthonyDyer:You know, you're at a pretty good bank angle, so you're doing all this at night, you know, blacked out, stuff like that, so the enemy can't, you know, see you, and the the biggest rule in gunship and is like when shooting expect to be fired upon, you know. So yeah. Um yeah, it was uh a lot of crew coordination, a lot of what we call crew resource management, but basically the comms between uh all of us and the guys on the ground. And um, yeah, man, as I've learned like in this job, there's like sometimes it's not all black and white, you know, it's not a right decision or wrong decision, but there's a safe and unsafe, you know.
LarryZilliox:Yeah. What was your first deployment on the aircraft?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, so my first uh uh gunship deployment was in uh Afghanistan. Uh we were at Bagram back in the day for that. And you know, back then it was like I think it was like 90 days on, 90 days off. So you were, you know, by the time you were getting back, you're already getting ready to go again. I'll tell people, but yeah, man, my first uh first deployment, man, it was uh it was it was started out really slow, you know what I mean? And then um that you know there was one, you know, one basically peaky time is what we call it when the sun was coming up where we had landed from one operation. This is my first shoot here, and uh we were uh basically got retasked and the pilot comes back to the back and um he's like, hey, he's like, you know, there's a green beret team that's pinned down. He's like, Who's with me? And you know, all of us, you know, in our own way said send me, you know, and um at that point, uh we went about an hour and a half or two-hour flight, and you know, I got to basically what it was was there's three caliban with uh explosive packs on shooting RPGs at the at the Green Berets, and we ended up uh lighting them up with uh you know 40 mil secondary, as you name it. So, you know, I got to think like, man, I got to do more than an hour and a half flight, and I've done my whole life for the country.
LarryZilliox:Mm-hmm. So are almost all the missions at night? Are there any daytime missions?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, there it it takes uh because there was a thing that happened in in uh the desert storm, it was called Spirit Zero Three Flight, and what happened was the uh the gunship, the age model, was shot down. I mean and so that led into like, okay, we'll only fly at night mostly, but there is waivers and stuff like that that you know they can get really fast if if it's a bad situation.
LarryZilliox:Right. Well, I imagine too that your tier one operators and door kickers are operating mostly at night too.
AnthonyDyer:So if you're if you're yeah, yeah, there it used to be a patch that I remember seeing it, and it was like we mostly come out at night, mostly, you know. That's sort of true, you know, every now and then there's a there's a daytime sheet though.
LarryZilliox:Yeah, yeah. So how many times did you deploy?
AnthonyDyer:It was a total of uh 14 deployments, but two of those were as a as a firefighter, and the rest was all uh aerial gunner flying was.
LarryZilliox:Wow. And I read your book. Let me let me just say that uh to all our listeners. You gotta order the book. You can get it right off of Amazon. It's an easy read. I read it uh on the plane, going to Chicago and coming back last week. It's a great book. It gives it really gives you insight into the aircraft and being crew member, the deployments and the toll that it takes on you. Um as combat takes on all our service members who are deployed. Again, the the book is Moon Child, the roots and wings of a U.S. Air Force Combat Special Missions Aviator. Uh, you can get it on Amazon. I encourage everybody to to go get a copy. It's uh it's a great read. How many years were you in?
AnthonyDyer:So it was uh 21.4 years. Uh I retired uh uh one December of 21 out of uh Canon Air Force Base.
LarryZilliox:Right. So why did you decide to get out right then?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, so what had happened was uh so there was uh like I didn't fly always on gunships, but uh I flew about five years on the uh the combat search and rescue, the pavilion helicopter, and and then I came back to gunships after five years to do my what you call you know sunset tour. I knew I was getting towards the 20. And so basically as on my last deployment, it was in Iraq, man, and like it was just it's very slow. And I and I get it now, man. It's like these are all jobs like you you often don't want to have to do, you know. And if it's uh you know, if we're working someone's worst day or possibly last day, I'll say that. And you know, but at the same time, you want to be the guy that to do the job when that happens, you know. And um, you know, I realized the the writing was all writing was on the wall, it was it was coming to an end, you know. So I hit the retirement button. And then man, I just had this loss of just identity and you know, sense of purpose. That's a real thing when you're getting out, especially when you're reflecting on what you know 20 something years, you know. And I I realized, man, like when you do your final out processing appointment, man, there's uh there's no door handling on the other side of that door, meaning, you know, you can you can leave this this machine, this air force, right? But you can never really get back in, you know. And so I knew it was over, but at the same time, you know, like I I struggled with that and it really developed uh to be honest with you, the drinking problem, man. I was drinking like a a pint a night just to go to sleep. And you know, my wife uh she she recognized that and you know, it's just uh basically the ultimatum of you know, me and your daughter or the alcohol, right? And you know, thank God, you know, I chose my family, and I'm I'm very glad I did. And I ended up getting uh prolonged uh therapy with like a USOCOM psychiatrist. You know, this was all within my last year, and then you know, once I retired, man, I was uh, you know, hit the ground running to continue my mental health and you know, get seen and stuff like that with the V8.
LarryZilliox:Are you uh still in touch with a lot of guys and gals that you served with?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, I I really am, honestly. And uh this this book, man, is is it's really eye-opening. Like, you know, I tell people every veteran has a story, you know, and um and writing to me was was very therapeutic, you know. There's different platforms to get these stories out, you know, and um, you know, part of that prolonged therapy thing I was talking about was you write the story out over and over and over and until you're basically comfortable being uncomfortable talking about it, right? And you know, till you know it it doesn't affect you as as much as it did, I guess you'd say. And then so she's like, you should tell your story over and over, you know. And I kept saying no, and then you know, once I got out and the dust did settle, man, I was like, you know what, like maybe maybe someone could get help from this story, you know, if they read this, if one person gets help, then uh that that's a victory.
LarryZilliox:Yeah, do you find that a lot of your peers um also experience the same sort of problems and self-medicated with alcohol or drugs?
AnthonyDyer:Oh, 100%. The uh, you know, I've I've received a lot of almost overwhelming amount of just like text and messages, like, you know, from people saying, hey, but I fluid, right? Like, like, man, like I've dealt with the same thing, you know. Thank you for for putting this out there. And what you'll see, and what I think would happen would be like a domino effect where people will start venting these stories out, you know, bleeding them on the page and just uh try to make sense of all this, you know, two decades of war that ended not too long ago and et cetera.
LarryZilliox:If I remember correctly, you were still active duty when you self-identified that you had a drinking problem. Is that right?
AnthonyDyer:That's correct. Yeah, it was a you know, it was my last year in there, and you know, it started off as a weekend, like, you know, here and there type of drink to like to a pint every night, you know, at least just to go to sleep.
Speaker 01:And yeah.
AnthonyDyer:I was just in a very bad spot, man, like a very, you know, this vicious cycle of, you know, drinking myself to sleep, waking up, hungover, getting through the work day, yeah, and then just starting it all over at 4 30 p.m. when I got off, you know. And that's anybody that's ever struggled with addiction or alcohol, man. I I feel you, and if you got that bug, but just just keep digging, man, keep fighting, and you'll get it.
LarryZilliox:So, how did your command treat you when you went to them and said, Hey, I have a problem, I need help?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, that that's one thing I would say, especially in recent, you know, years is ESOCOM and AFSOC, uh, all these units, there's this thing called the preservation of the force of family. And with that become, you know, you get a uh there's like a physical therapist, usually a trainer, and then like a uh psychiatrist, you know, and they were really open about it, you know, and they wanted me to get seen and get better, you know. They there was never an issue of like, you know, being on a flight schedule or anything like that. They just wanted me to get to my appointments and you know, get get better.
LarryZilliox:And so you were on restricted duty, what did they have you doing other than getting better?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, so there was uh like plans and tactics, um, different exercises coming up, sort of the planning part of that, you know, more admin type paperwork, I guess you would call it.
Speaker 01:Right.
AnthonyDyer:Um, you know, and still, you know, basically in a way mentoring still the younger guys, you know, like maybe recognizing that, hey, you know, if this person gets help, the next person may get help, you know, and to see it in like the domino effect.
LarryZilliox:Yeah. Did um did you see at the time, so you you were in you were in the Air Force way later than I was, but when I was in um, you know, I I've got pretty much the same story, been there, done that. And uh there was no there was no process or procedures to help identify airmen who may be having troubles or problems to try and help them adjust or deal with that before they started to self-medicate. It was always, well, you know, it's just what we do, you know. It's uh when I was on Guam back in the late 70s, uh, you know, a bottle of Ron Rico rum was like a dollar thirty-five. The coke costs more than the alcohol. You know, the Air Force is sort of known for taking over and building a base and building the NCO club first almost. So there was never any any kind of focus on trying to help airmen before they developed these kind of problems. Did you see that or was it still the same when you self-identified your problem?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, yeah. So there was, I mean, you know, there's still the there was always this sort of stigma, at least at least when I first came in and all that, you know, and basically like no one wants to be the guy to to get taken off the flight schedule or or get a do not arm thing from your commander, right? Like it's no one wants to for that to happen. But now it's, you know, I think people are starting to realize, you know, and the commands are starting to realize that that there will be a time, you know, after two decades of whatever the case may be, the trauma and stuff that comes with that, that, you know, you're gonna have to take that tactical knee. And you know, it's it's more important to speak up, you know, is what sort of the the mindset is now than it is to just to just let it fester, you know.
LarryZilliox:Yeah, I I I think too, you were in uh an organization that had a lot of stress just because of your job that was a little bit different than, you know, the air ground ground age guys or MMS who's just wheeling bombs out, you know, or the maintenance guys, or you know, that there are certain professions. Now, I see we always saw a lot of guys that had problems because they were bored. And it wasn't due to stress, it wasn't due to combat, it's just that they didn't have anything else to do. So they partied. But yeah, I just I do hope that today um the service is taking a more uh uh active role in trying to identify airmen that are in high stress positions. And we know that in special operations, we know with tier one door kickers that they rarely self-identify because it takes them out of the game. And that's their whole life. And you know, you've got pilots, you've got aviation crew members that they live for this. I mean, they are they having an incredible job. These pilots flying these planes are incredible pilots and um they do it because they love it. And so, you know, I know how hard it is. I know how hard it was for you to say, I've got to get help. Now you were fortunate because you had a family that pushed you in the right direction. A lot of young guys don't have that, but um what what did you find was the hardest thing when you transitioned to civilian life?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, it was um the you know, I didn't there was a lot of little things like I didn't know what business casual was, man, and you know, walking out the the door of the squadron and like you know, reaching for my hat, oh yeah, I got civilian clothes on now, and then you know, not being able to actually like to fly anymore, man. Like that, you know, I loved it so much, man. And that whole why, that whole reason to make sure those guys on the ground get home, you know, and that was, you know, from the that point of the spear, I it was gone, you know, and just accepting that fact and you know, and you know, to sort of realizing the fact that, you know what, my legacy now is being the best dad I could be, the best, you know, husband I could be, the best author I could be, whatever the case may be, the best friend I could be, you know, and just to be there from someone else. And to me, like I sort of changed at least to what I thought was relevant to to this, you know.
LarryZilliox:Yeah, and I see, you know, transition is hard. You know, I still I I will I don't go out without a hat on 40 plus years later. It just it, you know, there are things that were instilled in you that you still uh, you know, you still carry today and hopefully, you know, they're good things. What do you find in comments and people who've read the book and reach out to you? What are the what are they getting out of the book? What what is what are they saying about their service?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, so the the most common feedback I get is like it is really a short read, you know, like a Sunday read, but uh it's uh it's an emotional read, you know, and most people will tell me like even people I flu are like like you know, one thanks for doing it, you know, and number two is like that's the only book that made them laugh and cry within the same two hours, you know. Um, but yeah, as far as the lacing, man, everybody, honestly, people that's not even been flyers have have talked to me, man and said, Man, we really appreciate the story, and like, you know, and and encouraging people to see that it's okay not to be okay, you know. So they like that aspect of it. Yeah, take the bill off, you know.
LarryZilliox:Yeah. Uh I just want to go back to one thing that you talked about. You were flying on the helicopter in Iraq, is that right?
AnthonyDyer:It was in the East Africa for that's commission.
LarryZilliox:Were you were you guys um shuttling out PJs or what were you doing on that?
AnthonyDyer:Yeah, yeah. So we were um basically on Casovac like 24-7 uh alert, right? And um, it was um day seven of a seven-day out, and you know, all was going well, man. And like, you know, next thing you know, I hear attention on that scramble, scramble, scramble. And what it was was there was 40 uh special operators and then uh most of Green Berets and then some partner nation guys, and um, they got hit by mortars and disco fire and stuff like that. And you know, basically we saw the best side of combat search and rescue that day, meaning we saved five lives, and and the worst side meaning that you know, one American, one Eagle didn't make it back. And you know, that definitely stuck with me. But you know, those people like you know, I love them so much to this day.
LarryZilliox:Yeah, yeah. It's um you you got both of those things going on at the same time. You're saving people and you're losing people, and it um it does it does mess with your head for sure.
AnthonyDyer:Um Yeah, you know, and it's it's I've I've always had the thought of especially in flying and stuff and in that world, right? It's it's not what you do, the haunch, it's what you don't do. And you know, the mind's a tricky thing. Like if I'd have been there five minutes earlier, ten minutes earlier, you know, things like that. And you know, but coming up, you know, find out later that no matter if we what time we'd have got there, he took a direct with the mortar, and once he got back on the operating table, unfortunately he passed, you know. But you know, I didn't know what sacrifice was to that day, man. And you know, to witness that, you know, it's forever as to my heart, man.
LarryZilliox:Yeah. Well, when you start second guessing and play that game of five minutes, two minutes early, uh you could have been in a place where you took around that downed your whole aircraft, you know. So um, you know, it could have gone, it could have go either way. Well, listen, listeners, go to Amazon and order the book. It's Moon Child, The Roots and Wings of a USAF Combat Special Mission Aviator. It's a great book. And uh, Anthony, I can't thank you enough for coming on with us today and talking all about uh your experience uh as an Air Force aviator and uh the book. So thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
AnthonyDyer:Thank you, Larry. I really appreciate it, man. And I appreciate uh you know everything you guys do. We're up there in Virginia, man. You guys are awesome, man. And uh uh we we all love you guys, man.
LarryZilliox:So, listeners, we'll have another episode next Monday morning at 0500. You can find us on all the major podcast platforms. We're on YouTube and Reaths Across America Radio. Until then, thanks for listening.
