Transition Out Of The Military Is Harder Than People Admit

Stop Loss. That single policy changed thousands of military timelines overnight, and it changed Jonathan Tennis, too. Jonathan is a prior-service Army intelligence specialist who served through the post-9/11 shift, and he joins us at the Warrior Retreat at Bull Run to talk honestly about what comes next when the uniform comes off and the mission feels unclear.

We get into why military transition can be so hard, even when you have strong qualifications, plus the parts people don’t say out loud: the loss of tribe, belonging, and purpose. Jonathan shares how he found his way to the Travis Manion Foundation (TMF), why the community “clicked,” and how TMF brings together veterans, inspired civilians, and families of the fallen to keep service alive in everyday life.

You’ll also hear a detailed breakdown of the Spartan Leadership Program, a selective seven-month leadership development experience built around self-work and real-world community impact. Jonathan talks about his own project centered on women veterans and the ways they’re still too often overlooked. We also touch on why donations of any size matter to veteran nonprofits, the integration of The Mission Continues into TMF, and how events like Mass Deployment turn service into visible, local change.

The conversation ends where it should: honoring Gold Star families, saying names out loud, and creating space for stories that deserve to be remembered. If this resonates, subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find these mission-driven veteran stories.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Jonathan

Larry Zilliox 0:14

Good morning. I'm your host, Larry Zillix, Director of Culinary Services here at the Warrior Retreat at Bull Run. This week, our guest is Jonathan Tennis. He's an ambassador with the Travis Mannion Foundation. And I'm really excited to have him. I know some families that we have hosted here who have been to Travis Mannion uh events and the facility that they have up north there. We'll talk about that. But uh Jonathan, uh, welcome to the podcast.

Jonathan Tennis 0:46

Thanks for having me.

Larry Zilliox 0:47

You're prior service army.

Jonathan Tennis 0:49

I am, former intelligence specialist.

Larry Zilliox 0:51

And a question that I commonly uh ask my guests is why would you join the army if you could join the Air Force?

Army Enlistment And Stop Loss

Jonathan Tennis 0:58

I uh I asked myself that question quite a bit. And when people ask me about joining the military today, uh I encourage them to join whatever branch it is that they feel is right in their heart, but I do uh highly recommend that they consider the Air Force uh just for quality of life. It is, it is it's not as hard, let's just put it that way. It's not as hard. I was lucky enough to live on a few Air Force bases.

Larry Zilliox 1:22

So that'll do it. When did you enlist?

Jonathan Tennis 1:25

Uh I enlisted in 1998. Now you're you're uh you're aging, dating me.

Larry Zilliox 1:28

So yeah, no, okay, 98. And how long were you in?

Jonathan Tennis 1:31

I did five years.

Larry Zilliox 1:32

Okay. That's not a typical enlistment though. It's four, right?

Jonathan Tennis 1:35

Yes.

Larry Zilliox 1:36

And then you extended for a year?

Jonathan Tennis 1:37

Uh well, you could say that. I I was I was uh involuntarily told that uh I would be sticking around for a little bit longer. Uh obviously the events of 9-11 changed uh a lot of uh of our worlds. Uh and I was in the army, set to get out in 2002. 9-11 occurred, and uh Secretary Runsfeld at the time said, uh, you know, we're we're gonna need you to stick around a little bit longer. So I was uh he enacted Stop Loss, uh, which for those who have not seen the terrible movie that was made about it, is a policy that forces you to uh stay in the army or in the military in general. Uh I remember that first leave and earnings statement I got after stop loss was enacted. Uh, and my new ETS date was 2031. And I sort of just chuckled about it and said, Hey, whatever, I'll get out when I get out. They lifted stop loss in 2003 after the invasion of Iraq. And it was probably one of the funniest phone calls I ever had because uh they said, Well, you can re-enlist and stay here, or you can get out and go home. And I really legitimately thought they were punking me. So my actual tour was five years and three months, was my total time in service.

The Shock Of Leaving Service

Larry Zilliox 2:37

Yeah. Stop loss was a a real morale builder. It uh it certainly helped with recruitment, I'm sure. I mean, I I get that. You had a real reason to to you know extend, even if it was not at your own volition. But I mean, for me, I had a four-year enlistment, and when they told me I could get out of four years and then I have a two-year reserve commitment, which they could call me back at any time, and I said, No, I'm just gonna extend two years, spend six years, and then you'll never see me again. I don't care what happens. Right. So I I get that. Um, so when did you get out? You got out in 2003? Fall fall of 2003. Yeah. What was that transition like for you?

Jonathan Tennis 3:18

Uh terrible, uh, honestly. And uh, you know, it's one of those things that's funny about the military, uh, in my experience. Uh my NCOs loved me. I was good at the army, I loved the army. Uh, when I told them I was getting ready to get out, they said, you're gonna end up homeless, uh living underneath the bridge. Mind you, I have a uh top secret security clearance, um, highly trained as a Russian linguist, as a signals intelligence analyst. And this is what they were telling me. Uh now, also it's hard to remember today when we're talking about this things like hiring our heroes, all these transition programs that exist today, four block, uh, you name it, those didn't exist back then. And so I was lucky to land a job, but I had a good resume and I felt like I had good qualifications and I was pretty determined. Um, but it took me a couple months. I stumbled a lot. And transition is hard. And I tell that people all the time, I do a lot of work in the transition space today. I spent, I grew up in the army. And when you go from being uh a kid uh to being an adult, and that's the only job you've ever had, uh, whether it's five years or 25 years, uh, it's hard to take off that uniform. It's hard to find the same level of meaning in the work that you're doing uh as a civilian. It just doesn't, it doesn't hit the same.

Larry Zilliox 4:23

Belonging and purpose.

Jonathan Tennis 4:25

Huge.

Why TMF Felt Like Home

Larry Zilliox 4:25

And and tribe, yeah. That's funny because they said the same thing to me when I was getting out in 1983, is that you gotta stay in or you're gonna be homeless. There's no jobs, is what they said. There's no jobs, you can't get a job. I'm like, well, I'll try. I'll see what happens. So uh uh when did you get hooked up with Travis Mannion Foundation?

Jonathan Tennis 4:46

Uh so I had known about Travis Manion Foundation uh as a result of uh just being familiar with a number of the different veteran service organizations. I kind of I would say became very active when I moved uh up to Northern Virginia in 2021. Uh, joined the the local national capital region chapter, uh, started volunteering at their events. Uh and it's one of those things that uh it just clicked. You mentioned the word tribe a minute ago. And tribe, I think, is really important for us to think about. We all, you know, from thousands of years of evolution, we we we want to be in community. We need to be in community, we need our tribe. And when you find groups of people that kind of are like-minded or similarly minded and are giving, um, I think it was really important to me. And so I saw the work that they were doing and I thought, you know, I really dig this. I think I want to do more of this. I joke with them all the time and tell them, you know, you every time you show up to an event, they give you a t-shirt just about, and I laugh about that because I'm like, well, if if y'all want me to stop showing up, I guess you can stop feeding me and stop clothing me and I'll I'll quit coming. But that's not true. I'd still come. It's uh it's an amazing organization, uh, and I really am honored to be able to be a part of it.

Larry Zilliox 5:51

And it's named after Lieutenant Travis Manion.

Spartan Leadership Program Breakdown

Jonathan Tennis 5:55

Correct, who lost his life in Iraq. And um grief's a funny thing. And um his mom founded uh the Travis Mannion Foundation to honor his legacy and to to give meaning and to make sure that that he wouldn't be forgotten. Uh, we lost uh too many people uh over there, and and there isn't a foundation for every one of them, but it is a place to honor the legacy of of Travis, uh as well as Brennan Looney and also all of the families of the fallen. And so we're made up of inspired civilians, veterans, and families of the fallen. And those three folks come together in a variety of ways to build the community, make the community better.

Larry Zilliox 6:32

Well, I mean, you guys do amazing work with families. A couple of programs that I've seen and jumped out at me. One was the Spartan Leadership Program, and uh that kind of leadership development for veterans, I think is really important because they have so many skills, and a lot of veterans just don't know how to place those skills and to to use the skills that they got in the military and kind of transfer them to the civilian life. What is that Spartan leadership program really all about?

Jonathan Tennis 7:07

Yeah, the before I answer about this, specifically the Spartan Leadership Program, uh, the amount of responsibility that we're given in the military. You know, I was enlisted, um, and and the amount of responsibility in terms of personnel and value of equipment uh is just incredible. And you really don't see that kind of same level of responsibility when you think about the things that we're giving to an 18, 19, 20-year-old kid, essentially. Um, and so when you have leadership in the military and then you get out of the military and what's that like, you know, when you're a civilian, when you're a veteran. And so the Spartan Leadership Program is a neat program. I was a part of Cohort Six uh two years ago. Uh, I applied for the program because I'd been volunteering with TMF for a little while. It's a seven-month-long program that's meant to help develop Spartan leaders. Uh, Spartans are what uh Travis Mania Foundation calls their overall group of volunteers. Um, it applies to all of them. Uh so if you're family at fall and you're a Spartan, if you're a veteran, you're a Spartan, if you're an inspired civilian, you're a Spartan. And it gives us a chance to come together with those different groups of people that make up Travis Mania Foundation and to learn about leadership. I think one of the things that we don't spend enough time talking about is what does it mean to be a leader? You know, there's all sorts of books written about it, and there are people who have uh tons of information out there. They say they claim to be experts at it, but do they are they spending the time learning about it? And so over the course of those seven months, spend a lot of time learning about yourself, doing a lot of inner work, uh, and then figuring out uh the culminating events of it, besides the graduation, uh, is a community impact project. How does a veteran get signed up for that? So, I mean, I I uh I hate to be so so simple and say Google it. Um, but you know, I certainly would would love to provide my contact information if you're local to the to the Northern Virginia, to the the DC, Maryland, Virginia area. But honestly, you know, we we have chapters located all over the country.

Larry Zilliox 8:54

Okay.

Jonathan Tennis 8:54

Uh if somebody were just to send an email uh to uh Travis Manion Foundation, you know, to look up, you know, to sign up, they'll be able to be connected with with folks. The Spartan Leadership Program is a very selective program and it's only for kind of those top volunteers that they have. Uh and the purpose in that is because again, they're trying to build people into the organization that will help them. As somebody who's familiar with nonprofits, you know, there's only so much work that the staff itself can do. And so you need that that army of uh of volunteers that can help you ensure that the work is getting done. Because it's it's you know, it's a lot of sweat labor, it's a lot of of folks who aren't on the payroll. Um, but that's important because that's how these these nonprofits stay in business, stay up, stay operational, and they're so important to our veterans.

Larry Zilliox 9:40

Yeah, so it sounds like they need to start volunteering with the organization and then sort of work their way up into possibly going through that program. So it's not like you're taking people right off the street into that.

A Project Centered On Women Veterans

Jonathan Tennis 9:53

No, typically not. I mean, I was involved in the interview process for the cohort behind ours, um, which was kind of a neat thing to have just finished. Um, I have since uh submitted referrals to a couple uh folks who have applied. Some have gotten in, some haven't, but a lot of recruitment takes place with those of us who have completed the program. Um and there are some people who just found out about it and thought, hey, this just sounds like a cool thing to do. And there's others who have been a part of the organization for years. Um so they do take a mix, they take the interviews very seriously, and they try to pr they try to provide a cohort, a group of people that they think are gonna mesh well, you know, because you're gonna spend a lot of time. You have to dedicate a lot of a lot of these classes are virtual. They meet three times a year. Uh, once when it starts off, it kicks off in April. Uh, once in the summertime, uh, they meet at a uh at a foundation called Big Fish out in Colorado that's run by uh Major Brian Chantosh, uh goes by Tosh. And then in the fall, they graduate. But one of the things I mentioned about the Community Impact Project, the culminating event sort of after graduation, is uh that opportunity to go out into your community and provide some impact. I chose to do mine on women veterans. Um, as a male veteran, I feel like, you know, a woman and I could walk into a VFW, a woman veteran and I could walk into a VFW in an American Legion, they'll automatically assume she's my spouse, my friend, my partner, daughter, mother, whatever, but they won't assume she's a veteran. And I was fortunate enough as an intelligence professional to work around a lot of women veterans. So that was what I did. I did it at the Military Women's Memorial uh there in Arlington, Virginia. It was just an amazing event. And so grateful to have had the opportunity to do it.

Donating And Why Small Gifts Matter

Larry Zilliox 11:25

Well, our listeners know about that. I just did an episode with an amazing uh army combat medic. She's uh physician's assistant now, but she got out and she founded a nonprofit for women veterans called She's the Veteran because her and her husband would be out. He never served, but they always assumed he was the veteran, and he was you know very generous and would say she's the veteran. And and well, we we know, we know beyond a doubt. Our women veteran, they are underserved on every level. And uh that's fantastic that you did that. Uh so uh listeners, while I'm thinking about it, I want to direct your attention to the webpage. It's simple, it's Travis Mannion, M-A-N-I-O-N, TravisMannion.org. I want you to go to the webpage, take a look. There's plenty of resources there. You know what I'm gonna say. You're gonna find it right up there in that right-hand corner. Is that donate button? You hover over it, it turns red like you're used to. Bang on it, give what you can. Five bucks, ten bucks, thousand dollars. Everything helps. Um, this is a nonprofit that is out there doing amazing work. They are supporting veterans on many different levels and families of fallen veterans. So, you know, please check it out. Uh spread the word on your social media and you know, see what how you can get involved. Talk about you guys received the $250,000 Bezos Courage and Civility Award, uh, which was granted by Admiral uh William McCraven, who if you don't know who the Admiral is, he's a very well-known Navy SEAL. What was that like? Because that's that's uh that had to been helpful, that kind of grant.

Jonathan Tennis 13:16

Yeah, I honestly, as a as a volunteer, as a volunteer leader, uh I don't know a ton about that that award, but um uh I I did want to talk a little bit about Admiral McCraven. Uh incredible if you haven't read Sea Stories, um, incredible book. If you don't have time or the interest in reading the book, watch the uh Make Your Bed speech, uh the commencement address that he gave to the University of Texas. Just an incredible thing and something that I think it's really funny because I've made my bed uh you know every day in my adult life, and and I think about it, you know, every day as a way to achieve things. But I think one of the things I would say, even though I don't know a ton about that grant that you just mentioned, these nonprofits, uh, you know, it's it's easy to say, well, you know, I I I don't have a ton of of of uh time, talent, or treasure, but but if you you know believe in the words of St. Francis, everyone's got a little bit of some of that, right? And and where and how you can give is hugely important because it's just as important to these organizations the $250,000 grant as it is the $25 donation, because it it takes all these communities coming together, serving and supporting uh these organizations. Uh, and so uh it is such an important thing to, like you said, donate, uh hover over the donate button, donate what you can. Uh every little bit counts to include this organization. And so grateful to have the opportunity to come and see y'all's facilities.

Mission Continues Merger And Mass Deployment

Larry Zilliox 14:31

Well, we can't thank you enough for making the trip out because I have uh well, I've set up at a lot of tabling events with uh folks from the Travis Manion Foundation. Um, so I know I run into you guys all the time and to be able to sit down with somebody from the organization to tell us about uh the different projects. Um one is uh the mission continues.

Jonathan Tennis 14:54

What what's that about? So the mission continues was uh was founded. Um it's funny, uh, one of the quotes I uh that I've I remember so vividly, uh there was a book called Charlie Mike by Joe Klein. The very last page is is uh got a quote by Clay Hunt, and it's about donating and volunteering, it's about serving your community. The book talked about the founding of Team Rubicon and the Mission Continues. The Mission Continues uh just uh they they announced last year, actually, in 2025, uh that the Mission Continues was going to be merging with uh Travis Mania Foundation. Travis Mania Foundation is is um, and they're still working through the details. I don't know a ton about what that integration looks like. Um, but it's neat that they're taking some of the the better-known programs of the Mission Continues and bringing those into the uh overall Travis Mania Foundation organization. One of those things was called the Mass Deployment. Uh this year is the 10th year that mass deployment is taking place. Um, it originally started in Wonder TMC, uh, and this year it's going to be hosted in Philadelphia in in June. Uh the idea of a mass deployment, which deployment I know that word uh kind of can probably bring some veterans, uh, given the heebie jeebies. Yeah. Uh, but this deployment's a little bit easier. You're gonna get to stay in a hotel room, but you're gonna do your sweating for sure. Um, but it goes into the community, brings a bunch of veterans together to help serve. You know, the idea is is bring 100 veterans together, put them to work hard, uh, you know, to be able to make some significant and serious improvement in some of the areas. Last year was in Tampa, years previously it was in in other cities, uh, I think to include Washington, D.C. and Baltimore. Uh, but the Mission Continues, you know, is is as far as I understand it, gonna be completely um, you know, kind of integrated into Travis Mania Foundation, uh, which is honestly a really powerful thing, I think, because those folks who are really into the Mission Continues and those folks who are passionate about serving that community as the mission continues, they had found their tribe with TMC. They're gonna find a home and a new home with TMF, you know, it's gonna be a larger tribe. Um, but we're gonna, it's gonna be, I think, a plus up and a great benefit to the TMF uh organization because you're getting all these passionate volunteers from parts of the country where TMF may not have as solid a footing.

Serving With Gold Star Families

Larry Zilliox 17:08

Well, listeners, again, the webpage is travismannion.org. And that's a just a good example why you need to donate, because here is another organization that is looking at Travis Mannion Foundation and saying they're so well run and they do such amazing work. We want to be part of them. And so if that's not reason enough why you should donate, and I know I say this about every VSO to hit that button and uh uh to donate, but really, this is just an awesome organization that's doing wonderful work. Tell us a little bit about how uh what kind of work the foundation does around the families of the Fawn.

Jonathan Tennis 17:52

Yeah, so um I've been lucky enough to uh it's unfortunate that we have so many families of the Fawn. Let me say that first. You know, when I came home from Iraq in 2003, uh it wasn't in a flag flag draped coffin. Uh my father is a is a gold star family member. Uh I don't consider myself there, you know, depending on how the definition, but it it's it's typically just direct, you know. So mother, father, brother, uh, sister, you know, son, daughter, uh, wife, or husband. And um, you know, the the families of the fallen, I've learned a lot about not only, you know, what it was like for for Janet. I've read The Knock at the Door, um, which covered the story of uh three Gold Star wives or two gold star wives and one gold star sister, and what it was like to receive that that knock. And so I've learned a ton about them as a result of my work volunteering with TMF. Uh in fact, one of the projects I'm working on right now uh is uh through their Operation Legacy. Operation Legacy projects uh are community projects. And at the beginning or at the end of it, at some point in it, we bring everybody together and we talk to people about what it is that our work was doing. You know, not just what we were doing, but why, why we were there, what we're who we're honoring. Uh and one of the projects that I've got going on in Baltimore right now on the third Saturday of every month is uh working at a free bookstore. It's the first free bookstore in America. And uh they help give books to the underserved communities. And I've been working with the Gold Star family members, specifically through Travis Mania and Foundation, to have Operation Legacies every single month honoring uh folks uh who uh were unfortunately uh killed uh in the line of service. The first one honored an SLP cohort classmate of mine, uh, honored her son, uh Kevin Lehman, who uh was a Marine who lost his life. And he was an avid reader, and she brought a picture of him and she brought one of the books um that he would read a lot. And and at a part of the service project, we gathered together and we talked about what we were doing there. And uh there weren't a lot of dry eyes when she was finished. We did it again in February with another uh Gold Star mother, and the plan is to continue to do that every month uh as a way to honor those families of the fallen. Uh there additionally, there are survivor expeditions, um, which are specifically designed around uh gold star families and their needs. Um, you know, for for the kids, get them out of the house, get them to do something. Uh, I think some of them involve hiking. I don't know a ton about them because I haven't been on any of them. Um, but it is an organization that absolutely honors and and recognizes the sacrifice uh of those folks and and makes sure that there is a place for Gold Star families in everything that we do.

Remembering Names And Final Thanks

Larry Zilliox 20:32

Well, you know, if you talk to a gold star mother or or wife, one of the things you come away with is a sense that uh as best as they can, they've tried to come to terms with their loss. But one of the things that they worry about is that their loved one will be forgotten and that that loss will seem to drift away and have been for nothing. And the Travis Manion Foundation really does amazing work to to honor their sacrifice and the loss of their loved one um in the pursuit of freedom for all of us. Uh that's a that's an amazing, amazing program just in and of itself, one of many that they do. I mean, I can remember I've worn an MIA POW bracelet since 1972, never come off. Um you gotta remember, remember those that uh uh not only are friends and relatives, but just service members from your community, you know. Um call the VFW, call the American Legion and say who lives in our community that that gave their life in pursuit of our freedom and uh thank the family, bring some flowers, do something to help. And go to the Travis Manion Foundation webpage and donate.

Jonathan Tennis 21:52

Yeah, it's it's uh it's interesting you mentioned POW MIA. I I worked at the POW MIA mission mission as a civilian uh for about five years, and and I wear a bracelet as well, uh a POW MIA uh bracelet. And the the idea of not being forgotten is so so key. And uh, you know, it's uh it's one of those things that um uh if I could quote a Disney movie, um, you know, you die twice, you know. Once when you take your last breath, and then once when when someone breathes your name for the last time, it is so important to remember these folks. Uh, I'm sort of an amateur historian. Uh I have family members buried at Arlington National Cemetery. And when I walk through there, you know, I talk to people, I'm pretty outgoing. I say, there's 400,000 stories here, you know, learn about them. You know, my my great grandfather, there's a story there. My father will be buried there uh next year. There's a story there, right? And and so I think it's really important to honor those who who have uh served our country, who where they're buried, learn stories and to share and give an opportunity to let folks share those stories. I think when you talk to a Gold Star family member and you let them talk about their loved one, you give them a space and a place to do that. Uh, it really is amazing. You learn a lot about uh these folks and how, yes, the loss is significant, and yes, the loss is forever. Uh, but the ways in which that memory, their memory uh of service and sacrifice can reverberate through and the the good things that can come from that, you know, how they impact, you know, what they do, how their vision in the world, uh, what they do with that pain and how they've turned it into service. For many of them, it's an opportunity to remember that loved one, but it's also an opportunity to teach others about this person, Travis Manion, Brendan Looney, uh, the names uh on the fallen heroes. If people do go to the website, uh, there's a way that you can click on the, on the, there's a tab that you can click on to look up fallen heroes. And there are lists of people who's uh who have been registered with the Travis Manion Foundation. Uh, and my great-grandfather is one of those. My grandfather, excuse me, is one of those. Um, who uh he lost his life in World War II. Uh, and so my father grew up without a father. And so, you know, I learned long before I ever knew what a gold star family member was. I learned what that impact was like uh and and lived it. Uh and so I think it's it's one of those things that there's lots of opportunity to give people this, the, the chance to talk about their loved ones, and it's really a powerful thing.

Larry Zilliox 24:14

Yeah. Well, listeners, again, it's travismannion.org. Uh, check out the webpage, donate what you can, share the webpage link on your social media, um, send it to your friends and relatives and family. And uh Jonathan, I can't thank you enough for coming out and sitting down with us and telling us all about Travis Mannion Foundation.

Jonathan Tennis 24:36

I uh I'm very grateful for the opportunity. Thank you so much for for having me.

Larry Zilliox 24:40

Absolutely. Uh, listeners, we'll have another episode next Monday morning at 0500. You have any questions or suggestions, you can reach us at podcast at willingwarriors.org. You can find us on all the major platforms. We're on YouTube and Wreaths Across America Radio. So until then, thanks for listening.