Beyond Dry January: Is Alcohol Serving You? | Jennifer Fox

In this week's episode of the School of Midlife podcast, I'm joined by Jen Fox, the founder of the Zero Proof Project, a one-year, alcohol-free challenge. 

Whether you're currently doing Dry January, or are someone who is "sober curious," or just someone who finds herself thinking about how many glasses of wine she's had or justifying the number of drinks she's had on any given day or week, you'll love this candid, raw and honest discussion with Jen.

Although this episode is longer than most, you'll be captivated by Jen's story. She's smart and witty and open to sharing every bit about herself in a way that's refreshingly honest. Even if you can't relate to her story -- ever find your mom overdosing on heroin? -- you won't want to miss a second of our discussion.

We're not trying to make you quit drinking in this episode. We're simply posing the question: "is alcohol serving you?"

LINKS AND MENTIONS:
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☕️ Shop Dragonolia Coffee
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Transcript

0:00

For the last several weeks on the school of midlife podcast, we've been talking about building a strong base, a supportive foundation for the upcoming year, so that we can pursue things on our best life to do list. Last week we started conversation on healthy habits. And how it's your habits, those small repeatable routine actions that ultimately have the biggest impact on our ability to create change in our life. Because as we've discussed before, what got you here? Won't get you there. So you'll likely need to level up your habits. One of those habits. And what we're talking about today is our relationship with alcohol. For many of us drinking is just something we do to relax and unwind after a long day at work. We schedule wine nights with our girlfriends. We serve a bottle of wine with dinner. Alcohol is socially acceptable and in most circles is somewhat expected. You're getting together with friends, there will be alcohol. You're going to an after work event. There will be alcohol. You're heading out on vacation or going to the big game or seeing your favorite artists in concert, there will be alcohol. Some of us set rules about drinking. Like no drinking Monday through Thursday or no drinks while i, by myself. Some of us challenge ourselves to go without drinking for a certain period of time, whether that's one week or say a whole month, like dry January. Speaking of dry January is a hit because a lot of us feel like we might've over imbibed a little bit or over, we've been overserved over the holidays. So we participate in dry January or 31 days without alcohol. For some of us, it can be a huge stretch, like looking at the calendar and counting the days until January is over. For others. They don't really think about it, but they may be surprised to find out that they're sleeping better or they have less brain fog or they just feel a little bit healthier. Which makes sense to them because it's the beginning of the year and they're exercising more and eating better and generally taking better care of themselves. What they don't realize or think about is they're also not drinking. Today's guest is Jen Fox an incredible CEO of two companies. And also the founder of the Zero Proof Project, a one-year alcohol free challenge. Whether you're currently doing Dry January. You're someone who is sober, curious, or someone who finds herself thinking about how many glasses of wine or justifying the number of drinks she's had on any given day or in any given week. You'll absolutely love this. Candid raw and honest discussion with Jen. Listen, we're not trying to make you quit drinking in this episode, we're simply posing the question: is alcohol serving you? Welcome to the School of Midlife podcast. I'm your host, Laurie Reynoldson. this is the podcast for the woman who has everything. She always thought she ever wanted career family, home cars, designer handbags, but now it's midlife and she can't quite shake the feeling that something is missing in her perfect life, that she was made for something more. She's wide awake at 2:00 AM asking herself big questions like: what do I want? Is it too late for me? And what's my legacy beyond my family and my work? Each week we're answering these questions and more. Let's make midlife your best life.

Laurie: 3:32

Welcome back to the school of midlife podcast. I am so excited to have you here today and I am very excited to introduce you to Jen Fox. I had the pleasure of meeting Jen at a woman's wellness retreat about a year ago. Uh, she is the CEO of at least two companies. She's an endurance athlete and all around incredible human. Uh, I'm, I'm so excited to have her on today to talk about this incredible passion project that she's got going on. So. Welcome to the School of Midlife

Jen: 4:02

podcast, Jen. Hi, Laurie. Thank you. Can you believe it's been a year?

Laurie: 4:06

I, I, it, it's gone. On the one hand, it's gone very quickly. And on the other hand, it's like, wow, that was a year ago. But yes, and I'm jealous that you get to go hang out with all those incredible women again this year. And I have a work commitment. So I'll be bummed to miss the retreat this year. But, um, so I gave you a real. Cursory introduction. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your life, and what we're going to talk

Jen: 4:37

about today? Oh my gosh, how much time do you have, Laurie? So, um, well, I guess I'll start with my professional career, like my day job. So it'll be 24 years this year that I started working with my father in our family business. So this will be, um, 62 years we've been in business here in Chicago, which is. It's kind of wild to think about. That's incredible. Yeah, right? So, my dad, in 1962, started Fox Vending in Chicago, and he was a route man for Aramark. He actually left that job to go make more money and liked being a vending route man more because he's a people person. No wonder where I get it from. And so he bought a cigarette machine and threw it in the corner of a bar in Chicago, and that's kind of how the business started. So I went to college for graphic design. Actually, and go figure. Now I'm slinging snacks and soda. Um, but I went to school for graphic design, graduated, went back late. Like I dropped out my first stint at college, went back 23, graduated at 26 and was freelancing, honestly. And I think. I think because I was 26 when I graduated and I graduated with a lot of younger people who were kind of going into the work world for the first time. And I had been working since I was 13. My first job was washing hair. That's probably against the law these days, but, um, you know, they were working really long hours and making very little money. And I was waiting tables, making great money, kind of thinking, I don't know that. Gig kind of sounds like it's terrible. So I wasn't quick to like put my, um, portfolio together and get out into the design world. So I was just freelancing waiting tables when my dad approached me and I, he really honestly did it out of desperation because he never, I mean, I am the last person in the family that he thought would take over his family business. He definitely thought his two sons were going to grow up and take it over. And. You know, when I was 26, they would have been 22 and like 19. So I think I was just a placeholder and I don't mean that to demean the job I've done, but I mean, I just think like my dad just kind of thought I'd get married and have kids and be a stay at home mom, which is frankly what I. Kind of envisioned for myself at that age. And so that was 24 years ago, need I say more? So I've been doing that and really like fell in love with it. Not, I had no business experience and, and had no idea what I was doing. So when I started, I kind of did everything from sales, customer service, sweeping the warehouse floor, whatever needed to be done. And I really fell in love with the personal pride that comes with working for yourself. And so I stuck with it and. It took a long time to find my footing with my dad. I think he and I, you know, like he's very old school. I love my father, but he's, you know, he was, he's 85 years old today. So he was born in a time when, you know, male chauvinism was, uh, you know, alive and well, not that it isn't still, but so we, we butt heads for a solid 10 years. And once we found our footing, then I really started to grow. So, I mean, I've, I'm super grateful that I had the opportunity and it's been a great. life for sure. I wouldn't say it's been my passion, but I, I have continued to fall in love with the pride that comes with doing something that has my name on it. So every truck that leaves my parking lot has Fox vending on the side of it. And you know, that feels good. So, so that's the start. You

Laurie: 8:07

lead a team of

Jen: 8:09

how many people? 24. So that's, I mean,

Laurie: 8:12

yeah, think about all of the impact, the ripple effect of what you're doing in the company you're leading and, and how that is, is helping people way down the line have, have better lives. So that's, that's incredible. Um, obviously because I know some of your history and your background, there are so many things we could talk about today, um, particularly about how you are making midlife your best life. But. I want to focus the conversation, especially because it's January, but on the Zero Proof Project. Yep. Can you tell us a little bit about what that is and how that came to be?

Jen: 8:53

Yeah, for sure. And that really does have a lot to do with, um, how I'm making midlife my best life So I will go back to kind of when midlife was the word my worst life. Yeah So my youngest brother Justin died of a heroin overdose at the very end of 2018 And I really was already in a very unhealthy Lifestyle. Um,

Laurie: 9:16

I, I don't want to interrupt, but I want to, I want to just stop because I think when people hear heroin, they think about like dirty people living in gutters, you know, like heroin just has this stigma to it. And I didn't know your brother, but certainly I have, um, gotten to know him a little bit through your stories and photos of him and, um, That, that's not the picture,

Jen: 9:41

right? No. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting you say that. So let's go back to 2013. In 2013. In August, I found my mom, my beautiful, 68 year old, very classy mother, overdosing on heroin. I don't even know if you know that part of my story. And um, she had gotten hooked on Norco after a knee surgery, and Justin had convinced her that snorting A little heroin was no different because Norco is very expensive to buy from a dealer on the street. At the time, you know, it was like 20 a pill apparently. And so, um, I, you know, my mom and my brother were very close and obviously had a very dysfunctional relationship. So when I found my mom, I mean my mother, like that's just crazy. When people hear that part, they're like, what? So yeah, what, you know, people don't understand that the. Heroin and the opioid epidemic, it's a real thing and it's affecting people just like you and me and it does not discriminate. So, that was 13, I got married in 14, I miscarried twice in 2015, my mom died from lung cancer in 2016, I separated in 17, I had a hysterectomy in October of 2018, my divorce was final in November and then Justin died 6 days later. So, the 5 years leading up to. When Justin died, we're just really tumultuous. And my marriage was very dysfunctional. It was a lot. Yes. And honestly, I could go back to like 10 years old and you know, we could start from there and we, we don't have enough time for that, but it was a lot. And my nervous system was fried now that I've done a lot of work and I look back, I'm like, Oh my God. So 2019 was just a. I mean, it was an epic pity party in my life and that is obviously not sustainable, but it wasn't like I went from healthy living December 5th, 2018 to like dysfunction. I mean, it was, it was a buildup. So towards the end of 2019, I just, I knew that how I was living was not sustainable. I had been following. A lot of, uh, sobriety communities online and Facebook. I don't even think I was on Instagram yet, to be honest. So I was kind of, you know, trolling these sites, not really engaging, but reading. And to be honest, I would read the majority of the stories and not relate to them at all. Like I was like, Oh my God. I mean, the stories are crazy, right? I like, I don't wake up in the morning and drink alcohol. Like I don't crave booze. I'm not, I don't know. Just like all the stories. Didn't feel relatable, but then there'd be that one and I'm like, yeah, I mean, I just knew instinctively It's like this isn't normal like drinking this much is not normal feeling this way is not normal I gained a lot of weight. So I was seeing this This live a great story you

Laurie: 12:33

say Drinking that much isn't normal, like a couple of glasses of wine at night or

Jen: 12:40

no, no, no, no. I was drinking at least a bottle of wine a day more often to sometimes more, um, maybe after the second, like if I was disciplined enough and only bought two bottles and maybe I had a bottle of whiskey and I would have a nightcap because my husband was a whiskey drinker and I kind of got in the habit of doing that too. It was just, it was abusive. I think

Laurie: 13:02

a lot of women, I mean, when it's one thing to say, you know, I was drinking a bottle of wine. Well, so that's like four glasses of wine. If you go out for drinks with your friends, you know, maybe you have two glasses of wine and then you go to dinner. And so it's not. It's not crazy amounts of alcohol that you are consuming. Is it sustainable? Maybe, maybe not. We can, we'll, we'll get into that, but okay.

Jen: 13:27

Just so I agree with you there. Yeah, I agree. And I think like, I think where that becomes a very slippery slope is if you do. Any type of research. It doesn't take a lot for you to read up on the effects of alcohol, just the scientific data, just the biological process that happens in your body when you're drinking that much alcohol, it becomes very easy to become a really bad habit that becomes a slippery slope into being addicted to it. So you become physically addicted to drinking that you don't even. Realize, like I never felt a craving to open a bottle of wine, if that makes sense. It just became so habitual. But I didn't realize that my body was actually needing that for the dopamine hit and needing that for the wind down and needing that, you know, it mentally, it just, your brain becomes addicted to it. It's a habit,

Laurie: 14:19

right? We're talking a lot about habits right now on the School of Midlife podcast. So yes. Yes. Um, and, and we can, I won't, I will, I do want to dive into kind of the social, it's great. I mean, wine and alcohol are totally socially acceptable anyway. Okay. So let's get back to you and then we'll circle back here.

Jen: 14:38

So I was seeing this Live a Great Story campaign in my social media feed, clicked on the link. I saw that they sold stickers. I had yet to send out the thank you cards after Justin's service. It had been almost a year. And so I decided like, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to send everybody a thank you letter for showing up for me however they did over the last year, include a live a great story sticker and implore them to live a great story because Justin didn't get his chance. So I did that. And I was seeing, you know. I

Laurie: 15:06

know, say that again, because that deserves a little bit of a focus and a

Jen: 15:11

spotlight on that. So I sent a thank you letter to everybody and sent them a sticker and I implored them to live a great story because my brother didn't get his chance and something about losing him. And then that, that period of time after losing him that I, I felt so lost and it felt like. The world had robbed me of my partner in crime, and he had so much life to live. And like you said earlier, he was so much more than a heroin addict, you know? I mean, he just, and he had been really pretty sober the year he died, so. We had spent a lot of quality time together and he was just a vibrant, outgoing person. Like, you can see a video of him on the Dragonolia website. I took that the August of the year he died. And that was him. That was his personality. He was just outgoing and fun and loving and bubbly and funny and charismatic. And so he had such a great story to live and, and heroin stole that from him. And I feel like we all waste time that we could be spending. Being more intentional and not taking life for granted and realizing that all of this could be gone tomorrow. And so, you know, we all have our chance to, whatever great story that might be, everybody's story is different. But when I sent the letter out, people started texting and emailing me, showing me where they had put their sticker and telling me how much I inspired them. And so it was like the beginning of December and I thought, man, I am such a fraud. Because you're I've inspired all of these people to live a great story and I am living anything but and so I just had decided I had done dry January since 2015 and so I just instinctively knew that like alcohol was not serving me and it was not going to help me. Change the way I was living and I knew that I, I just instinctively knew that a month wasn't long enough. Like I had done dry January enough to know that a month is great and it felt very easy, but it was also very easy to fall right back into my old patterns. So I'm like, you know what, I just need to eliminate it for an entire year and get it out of the way because 2020 is going to be my best year. Like that was just, I just made up my mind. And so I went to the Rachel Hollis three day rise conference at the very beginning of 2020. Mm hmm. She's the one that introduced me to this idea of claiming a word for the year. I decided my word was going to be unstoppable. I, I stood in that arena with 4, 000 other women and screamed my word and sobbed cry. I mean the whole stereotypical thing, right? Yeah. And then I set off on 2020 and I, you know, I started running. I mean, I just started to implement some things that I, I knew would help me. the trajectory of, you know, where I was going and it did. So, I mean, 2020 was literally the best year of my adult life. And I don't know a lot of people that would say that given COVID, but once, I mean, by the time COVID came around, I was already so set my, I was so stable in the choices I was making that it didn't. Affect me at all. And, and really, I, I mean, whether you believe in God or some other higher power, I feel like that was like a gift from God for me, because had I rolled into COVID drinking the way I was drinking in 2019, I don't know what that would have looked like to be perfectly

Laurie: 18:32

honest. Especially with no focus and then, you know, being isolated.

Jen: 18:36

Oh my gosh. And having to run my business because we didn't close, you know what I mean? I had to furlough all of my employees and managing that three months of quarantine was, Obviously, I'd never done anything like that before, and I'm super proud of how we handled it, but there is no way I would have been able to do what I did had I been drinking the way I was. So that's, that's how my 2020 started. And then, um, and then the Zero Proof Project, which is something I launched this year, was born out of Dragonolia, which really was born out of that whole journey from 2020 through 2020. Gosh, I have to think now 2021 when I, so

Laurie: 19:14

the, the listeners probably aren't familiar with Dragonolia. So why don't we talk about what that is?

Jen: 19:21

Okay. So I sell coffee for a living along with, you know, we're, we're a vending company, so vending and coffee service. And I had started running for team Herren Project in 2020. So I was fundraising. In Justin's honor, and they're a substance use disorder organization, um, out of the East Coast. Chris Herren, who is a former NBA player, he started it because he was an addict. I believe this is his 15th year sober. So I was fundraising for them all year and, and had raised quite a bit of money. And I wanted to continue to do that, but I realized, you know, I can't spend the rest of my life asking people for money, right? You can only ask somebody to like support one of your runs so many times. I've

Laurie: 20:00

run for charity before too. And then the last time I did it, I was like, you know what? I'm just going to write the check.

Jen: 20:05

Right. Exactly. Right. Like, you know, it's every, people were so generous, but at some point you have to stop asking. So I wanted a way. To continue to raise money in perpetuity. Um, and it just seemed like a logical fit to do that through selling coffee because that's what I do. So originally I had just committed 1 percent of the net profit from Fox Roasters. Our private label coffee. And I was down at my roasting facility. Um, not mine. I'm sorry, down at the roasting facility we're partnered with. And actually it was them that pointed out a skid of coffee that was for a charity, for some company they work with down in Florida, and it was in that, like, I can picture it. But right now, standing in the warehouse talking, that the idea came into my head, like, Oh, that's a great idea. I could donate money back from Fox Roaster's coffee, and I could put a sticker in every case of Fox Roaster's coffee and yada yada. So we were in the process of redesigning our Fox Roaster's bag and case. So it just was a perfect time to say, let's This is great. This is, this is a perfect fit. And so we started doing that, but something, I don't, I really can't explain it to this day, but there was just a little something on my heart that was like, I don't know. I mean, Fox Roaster is okay, but it, it felt like something more. So I had been sharing very openly online all through 2020 and then continuing. And was receiving countless messages from both people I knew and people around the world telling me how much something I wrote inspired them and people messaged me and said, I just, just so you know, I know you don't know me, but because of you, I quit drinking. I mean, it was, it was wild and I wasn't even trying to do that. Right. I was Jen.

Laurie: 21:48

Jen is a very impactful writer. Um, I, when I read the story about your mom in the hospital, um, you with her writing, whatever she is writing about, you are transported immediately to that moment. Um, you are a beautiful writer and have a, a very talented, very gifted ability to to move people from where they are to actually in the action. Thank you. So it doesn't surprise me that, that people were moved by what you were

Jen: 22:20

writing. Thank you. That means a lot to me because writing really is my passion. I love it. And I think because I have experienced quite a bit of trauma, um, an unusual amount, and I don't say that from the perspective of like, well, it was me, but it just is what it is. That's how I get it out of me. So it doesn't weigh me down. And I do it in a way that I hopefully taught somebody else that perhaps has experienced something similar, but doesn't know how to put it into words. So in any event, I was doing that. And then I realized like, okay, there's such a shame around addiction and there's such a stigma. And reading all these people's stories, and the amount of people that talk about how they are anonymous, or they can't tell people they know, their closest friends, how much of a hard time they get from people that are supposedly their friends about Natrick, it was wild to me, right? Like, because I don't, I don't have any shame talking about my story. Don't ask me why. I have no idea because there's a lot of shame in my family. My mom had a lot of shame about her addictions. My brother did. And so it kind of hit me like, okay, for whatever reason, I feel very comfortable talking about myself. And being very true and authentic, even though sometimes the stories aren't pretty. And I wanted to create a community where people could go and see themselves in other people's stories. Because I was doing that personally with my own, and I thought there are so many other people out there that have a story to tell. So that's really how Dragonolia was born, as just a storytelling community. And then it started with my story, my brother's story, and my mom's. And then we just started reaching out to people online that were posting openly about being in recovery or being alcohol free by choice, but never having identified as an alcoholic. And that didn't help me with the fundraising part. So that's when I thought, I need to create a coffee that's more geared towards personal use, not corporate office use, Roasters, you know, it comes in cases of 42 bags. You know what I mean? For like an office environment. So I had already, I was already working with this roaster in the city, this small boutique roaster. The coffee's amazing. And we collaborated together and this, I love this part of the story. So if you will indulge me, I'm going to like just shoot off to the side for a second. So I was there and I get real. Once I have an idea, I'm just like, I get very excited. So I was like super energetic talking to them in their facility. They were like in this really cool loft space in the West side of Chicago. And they were just kind of like, yeah, that sounds great. I mean, this was just an idea. And they were like, well, do you have any, do you have a designer? And it's funny because it's literally what I went to school for and what I'm very naturally good at. But I graduated so long ago that I would have to go back to school to be able to do it well. And. They said, well, the designers that we use have an office right upstairs. Why don't you go up and talk to them? So I did. So I popped up and I like bound through the door and I'm telling him my whole story and I'm, you know, like talking a mile a minute. And it was a guy and a girl. I very clearly remember John was on my right. Nicole was on my left. And I remember in the moment of me, like Nicole looking at me, like I was kind of crazy. That's how I felt. It, it was like a year or more later when we, now the logo has been designed. And I think the. Bag had already been designed. Yeah, it had. We're in like the designing the Instagram page, like brainstorming how we're going to launch this community. And she says, very off the cuff. Maybe one day I'll share my story. And I was like, wait, what? Like, you know, record and she just, she said it so subtly. So I didn't want to pry, but I just kind of looked at her strange and she's like, maybe one day. Well, it turns out if you go to our page, you can find Nicole's story. It turns out that she herself had been in active addiction, struggling in the moment I came bounding through her door, door had been struggling for a long time, had done drugs as a young and they're, they're much younger than me, but, um, had. John Drugs was struggling in the moment with like, heavy alcohol abuse when I came unexpectedly through her door. And the reason I thought she was looking at me like I was crazy is because she was looking at John, who I didn't know was her husband until this very day, a year and a half later, she was looking at her husband in disbelief that like,

Laurie: 26:54

did you plant this woman here?

Jen: 26:56

Right? Yes. And it was completely the universe conspiring for this woman because she has been sober ever since. Oh wow. She said that because she, this project landed in her lap and she had to do all of this work in online sobriety communities, she had no idea they existed. Like she did not know that there was this support network online. That could help her get sober. So I think, I mean, jeez, if, if Dragonolia ended tomorrow, to me that's a win. You know what I mean? Absolutely. No question. Yeah, my goal has always been, if I can just help one person. If my comfort in sharing helps one person. that is enough for me. And I wanted to be able to give back to Herren Project because they really helped me in 2020. Being part of that community was incredible. And so the coffee, so we, so we have this coffee. It is delicious. I'm actually drinking it right now. I drink it every morning and a dollar from every bag goes back to Herren Project and it goes into a scholarship in my brother's name so that people that can't afford to get help can get, you know, like money into a scholarship to help them get help.

Laurie: 28:06

We'll put a clickable link in the show notes. So if you would like to try the Dragonolia coffee, um, you can just click on the link and go directly to Jen's, um,

Jen: 28:17

website. Yeah. Great. I actually posted in my stories last night because I now buy it in a five pound bag because that's, I mean, I don't drink a ton of coffee, but I have a cup or two every morning and so I just keep the five pound bag in my freezer. We're going to have that added to the store just for people who, you know what I mean? If they, if you really like the coffee and you don't want to be on a regular subscription or you just want to have enough around anyway. So that's been really fulfilling and it's grown organically. I, I obviously I don't have a ton of money to pour into online advertising or any of those things, but it's been really rewarding growing the community. Um, I think there's over 4, 500 people in the Instagram community today and that's all organic. So to me that's super special too that I didn't pour a bunch of money into it or buy any followers or anything like that. Yeah. It just is, you know, I'm paying John and Nicole and Fox Vending supports that, which is great. And beyond that, it's just me doing this kind of stuff that gets the word out about the community. And I think again, like I said, if it, if it, if it helps the person in recovery share their story. And I know it does, that, that's worth it. And then if those stories reach one person and it gives that one person inspiration to try another day, that's worth it. So it's meant a lot and I, I often think about Justin and what he would think about it and I think he would be super proud. And I think he would be really grateful that his legacy isn't lost and that though he didn't win his battle, perhaps all of his struggles can be put to good use so that somebody else just like him can find a way to live their great story. Yes. Yeah, yeah, so that's where Dragonolia came from.

Laurie: 30:05

let's bring it back to the Zero Proof project because that's going on right now. Um, and from what I understand, you don't have to be in recovery, You might just be sober curious. You might just wonder what is a year without alcohol look like? So let's talk about the Zero Proof Project. Particularly because it's January, particularly because there are a lot of people that are in dry January right now, their focus is on healthy habits for the year. Tell us all about the Zero Proof

Jen: 30:34

Project. Okay. So yes, this is a really good time to be talking about it because I wonder if we We'll get people joining towards the end of January who are kind of thinking, Hmm, maybe I want to continue. So I personally have never identified myself as an alcoholic. That is, you know, I'm in regular therapy. It's something I talk about quite a bit. I have a lot of experience in addiction and AA. My first Allotine meeting was when I was 10 years old for my mom. I, I have just, I don't feel like I identify with a lot of things that would make me say, yes, I think I'm an alcoholic. So because of that, you don't see a lot of conversation about people, like you use the term sober curious, and we are. I mean, we are really seeing a lot more people talking about this, which I think is amazing because, because I personally don't identify that way. I want to tap into this huge community of people that I know is out there that silently struggle with how they're drinking, but because they don't want to identify as an alcoholic, they do nothing. And I feel like. Up until now, the only path that we have presented to people is, oh, if you do something about your drinking, you must be an alcoholic. And I can tell you just from when I decided to do A Dry 2020, one of my very best friends was at my house the week that I decided. And he said to me, and like I said, I remember this like it was yesterday. He said to me, well, you're not going to actually tell people that you're quitting drinking for the whole year. Are you? And I looked at him very confused because I didn't understand why he was asking me that question because it hadn't dawned on me either way. And that's how I responded. I don't know. It hasn't. I didn't think about that either way. Why? And his exact words. are in my brain till today. And it's kind of the motivation behind the Zero Proof Project, which is, well, aren't you afraid that people are going to think you have a problem? His exact words. And I looked at him and I said, Jim, I drink two bottles of wine every day. Sometimes more. That is a problem. I don't really give a shit what people think, but that moment was kind of like a seed in my soul of thinking, how many other people? Don't do anything because they're afraid of what people are going to think. That's crazy. Right. And so I really started to kind of pay close attention to how people talk about it and the communities that I was in were all private communities. So. All of these people, and listen, there's no judgment to people who choose to be anonymous, but there's, all of these communities are private and all of these people are gravitating towards these private communities because they can't, they don't feel like they can be their authentic selves in real life. And my personality just automatically thinks that sounds exhausting, right? If I had to go through every day, not being myself, I can't imagine. And so I really wanted to Do something for the people that are like, I wonder what it would be like to just not drink for a year. Like, and listen, if you don't think you have a problem and you can't not drink for a year, perhaps you should spend a little more time asking yourself why. Because when I gave it up in 2020, I mean, frankly, I didn't know whether it'd be easy or hard either. I was just so hell bent on changing my life. And I knew that alcohol was just going to get in the way it was going to be like a roadblock. So to me, it was the obvious thing to eliminate so that I could do all of these other things. Like I wanted to start running, obviously drinking and feeling hungover and not feeling great. Doesn't lend itself to. being physically active. So it just felt logical to me and it never felt hard. So the whole year went by. I mean, in the beginning, did I have moments of familiarity? Yeah, there were moments where I may have been like, Oh, I would have had a glass of wine right now, but I guess probably also had been, I had done dry January enough years. So I knew what that felt like. You know, to begin with, so Zero Proof Project was born out of my desire to do another Sober Year. So selfishly, I was like, let's do it with the community. Like let's launch something so that we can try and inspire other people to maybe give it up for a year. I just think the transformation it had on my life was profound. And I know, not I think, I know that if more people tried it, they would be stunned. At the impact it's having on their life, even the people. And so many people say this to me, oh, I don't drink that much. I can still tell you how many people say that to me. And I'm like, okay, well then if you don't drink that much, what's the big deal about giving it up? So I mean, I can cut that, you know, I can cut any response in a hundred different ways. The bottom line is. Drinking, no matter how much you do it, is impacting you in a negative way somehow, even if it's just that one day a month. And so 2020 was the best year of my life. And I don't just say it's because I quit alcohol, but because I stopped drinking, I added 10 really. Great things to my life. It just gave me space to grow in a way that I had never grown before. And I wanted to do that again. So I had, you know, I went back to social drinking. I've done dry January every year, like I normally do. And I just started seeing a kind of creep in more and more. I call it my fuck it button. Um, you know, it's. Do I run today or oh a friend asked me to go out to dinner. Ah, fuck it. I'll go out to dinner I'll run tomorrow. I just saw that creeping in again a little too often and I didn't like it I've gained some weight, you know all the little things and I thought I want to do another sober year And I also wanted to start contributing to Dragonolia more myself And I really if you've noticed if you have been following me for a while My voice wasn't very present in the community and that's because I felt like that was kind of disingenuous since I did drink and I never wanted Dragonolia to ever feel inauthentic. I mean, that's really important to me in my personal life and so I, I would literally have this vision in my mind of like somebody knowing me from Dragonolia, seeing me have a glass of wine and feeling like I was a fraud. I just pride myself on. Being true to who I am and like what you see is what you get. And so I never wanted to present myself as anything but real. And, and so I've always been very honest and open about the fact that I still drink socially. So me wanting to do it was like, I want to do this. I want to be more a part of the community. I think it's going to be really fun. And so that's how Zero Proof Project was, you know, created in my mind. And then we launched it and we have a pretty good group. I think there's 22 people in there right now. We've had two weeks of Monday Zoom check in calls, which have been great. And, um, I'm just. Really, really pumped about the year because I just, this group, especially half the people in the group are people I know, and they didn't even tell me they were joining. So like, I only saw their name on the list because they filled out the Google doc and I didn't reach out to them outside of. Them signing up, you know, I didn't, it was like, I thought it was really cool that I've inspired people I know in my own life because they've watched how I live and they're like, um, I want to give this a try. Let me see if I can do it. And some of them have reached out to me on the side to be like, you know, I have an event in February and I'm not sure. And it's just so funny to me. And I've just said, listen. You do you. Like, structure it however you want. If you do an entirely sober year, but you drank that weekend trip in February because you had it planned and it was your friend's 60th birthday and what, like, I'm not here to judge. It's your thing. Like, there's just so much judgment around it, and if more people would just stop listening to outside voices and start making it their own journey. Like, what's best for you? Is alcohol serving You, if you're sober for the entire year and you drink for three days in February and that served you well, because you enjoyed that weekend, go for it. You know, and you don't even have to tell anybody, like it's your business, but you're being authentic to yourself. And so I think like, I think that the community is inspiring because it's not people that necessarily identify. Now there are people in recovery in the group too. So, and these are people that are very open minded to, yeah, it's not just AA or bust. Right? Like however you find your way. There are other options. Correct. Yeah. Like however you find your way to a healthy relationship with alcohol, be that recovery, be that AA meetings, be that a less of a relationship with alcohol, be that more moderation, whatever that looks like. I think people need to understand that it's not AA or bust. It's, is it serving you? Let me back up. This is why the question, am I an alcoholic, we don't talk about that. Like, I don't, that's a question for you to ask yourself an answer, and if you want to ask an answer that question, by all means do it. The question I've asked myself is, is alcohol serving me? And when that answer becomes no, Then I know that means I have to do something about that. And, it's interesting, there's a, there's a saying that I've heard in the AA community, which is the minute you have to control your drinking, it means you have a problem. I don't necessarily agree with that. So, I really, genuinely feel like if you answer the question, no, alcohol is not serving me right now. And then you can just, you make that decision like, well, I'm just not doing that right now. I'm focusing on other things. It is so empowering. And that momentum of how you feel as you aren't drinking is so powerful. And so it gives you like this opportunity to have a better year and make better choices that when you roll into the next year, like I can now, I have this barometer of what 2020 was like. And then what 23 was like, and now I'm going to have what 2024 was like. And these are all just tools in my toolbox. So however I roll into 2025 after dry January, that's not even on my radar, but I just know that the tools I have to make healthy decisions are going to be even stronger and more robust because I've done Zero Proof Project in 2024. So I really challenge people to, to evaluate the relationship. And challenge themselves to see what their life would look like without it, without the drinks.

Laurie: 41:22

you have talked about so much and so we're going to unpack, um, a little bit at a time. Um, you know, I've, I've done 75 hard four or five times now. And one of the things for 75 hard is no alcohol for 75 days. And for most people that is. The hardest thing that they do, like they can't even imagine how could I go 75 days without having a drink, you know, because we have, um, after work things that, you know, receptions we need to go to, we've got client dinners, we've got, uh, fun things that aren't work related and alcohol is always such it's, it's socially acceptable. It's just one of those things that's part of it. You know, you walk into a room or maybe not everyone, but it is not uncommon. If you walk into, say, a big reception or a gala or an event, and you've got to be on the first place you go to is to the bar to get a drink. And. What I've noticed is it's like I have to talk to the bartender every time and I'd be like, can you please give me a Club soda with a couple of limes in a small glass because if you go order a club soda They're gonna they're gonna put it in a tall glass with a big long straw and it's like it's it's almost like you're ordering a Shirley Temple at a restaurant right and then everyone wants to know Why aren't you drinking? Like it's this big issue. You must have a problem or why aren't you drinking? I mean, uh, if, if we were younger, Jen, people would think, are you pregnant? And they would ask that. But now that we're beyond the, uh, pregnancy years, um, now they want to know, why aren't you drinking? And it's this big. It, it, it's almost like my decision not to drink an event. They feel like I am somehow judging them that they are drinking and that's not it at all. I mean, I had so much to say about that. Like you, I've, I've gotten to the point, um, we, we were at a birthday party this last weekend. I had, you know, maybe a half a glass of champagne and two sips of red wine because drinking for me. And, It doesn't work anymore. When you ask, is it serving me? I love red wine. I will have a migraine for three days after, after I drink it. And that's like a glass of wine with dinner. Um, and I don't sleep well. I get the, the, the, like the sweats. It's just when you think about Um, I living my best life with alcohol for me that that answer is no. Does that mean that I will never drink again? Absolutely not. I love me a glass of champagne for a celebration, but you know, we bought a new condo in sun valley this past fall and instead of going out and having drinks after work, Mike and I grabbed the dog and we went for a hike and I think that there are just some ways that. You can create a really beautiful life in a way that serves you in a way. That's healthier But alcohol can be part of that or it cannot be part of that. I think we should talk about

Jen: 44:38

what you just what you said about um If you're not drinking, then other people feel like you're judging them. So like at an event, cause that's a really, really big part of it. And, and I've mentioned all of these sites that I've, you know, trolled over the years. I have one thing to say about anybody who judges you or gives you a hard time for not drinking because I, I, this isn't even like a 99 percent guarantee. I 100 percent can guarantee you that anybody who. Gives you a hard time about not drinking or is overly concerned with whether or not you consume alcohol, is really concerned about their own drinking, and you are a reflection to them. Of their drinking, right? So it's not so much as that they think you're judging them, it's that they're already judging themselves for their drinking and they know it and your ease and ability to not drink at the same event makes them very uncomfortable. And I can promise you that and, and here's why, because I don't hang around with a lot of drinkers actually, oddly enough. So say in a corporate environment. Most of the people, like at a trade show, let's say I go to an event after the trade show, you know, the day on the trade show floor and I'm at an event and everyone's got a drink. Like you said, I mean you walk into an event, everyone has a drink in their hand. I'm known as a drinker. Like all of these people know me and much bigger drinker than any of them. So these people are not people who, who drink at home, who are big drinkers at all. And never once has a single person said to me, why aren't you drinking? Now, when I was younger and I started doing Dry January, I did get the, are you pregnant? I definitely got that. But now I have not had that experience of anybody giving me a hard time because I don't hang around with people that drink a lot. So nobody is concerned about their own drinking. So nobody cares if I'm drinking or not. Do you know what I'm saying? Absolutely. But like, getting the club soda in the small glass with the lemon and the lime, 100%. It's the best hack ever because people think it's a vodka soda. Yep. And when I go to a restaurant, if I want a mocktail, the first thing in 2020, I remember this, we went to see a band. This was like two weeks before we shut down for COVID too. We went to see a band. It was actually a. Best friend of my brother, Justin's, who grew up with Justin, who had sent me the most beautiful email about where he put his liver great story sticker. And he told me how I am not, sorry, my letter inspired him to tell me that Justin is the reason that he is in a band. Justin's the reason he plays guitar today. And he told me this whole story. It was beautiful. So we went to see his band play in the city. And I took my dad and I ordered a mocktail and they brought it to me in that tall glass with a straw. Yeah. And I looked at the server and I said, I am not 10, please take the sippy cup back and put that in an adult glass. And she kind of looked at me crazy and I said, I'm not, this is, that looks like a sippy cup to me. Right? Like everyone else got these drinks in beautiful glasses and I get my mocktail in a sippy cup. Please bring it to me in a beautiful glass. And she kind of laughed. She brought it back to me. And you know, there are great mocktails on lots of menus now, but most bartenders can be creative and make one for you. Even if it's not on the menu, you just have to ask. And I didn't 2020 at all. I didn't stop going to, I mean, other than COVID impacting it, I didn't stop going out. I didn't, you know, on New Year's day, I was at brunch with all of my girlfriends downtown at a beautiful place in the city and every single one of them drank, I had mocktails. It was great. Like no problem. So I definitely think that, um. If you find yourself surrounded by people who are giving you a hard time, I would say, and this might sound harsh, I don't think a true friend gives anybody a hard time about whether or not they're drinking alcohol, or for that matter, doing anything that you're doing to better your life. Absolutely. I mean, a true friend would want to support your choices, no matter whether they understand them or not.

Laurie: 48:37

Anytime that you are leveling up in your life or setting new boundaries to, that are safe for you or that are serving you, you are not going to get pushback from the people that are truly supporting you, that are truly in your corner. It's the ones that, um, like you said, feel some sort of insecurity about their own life or you are now reflecting back to them some question or problem that they think that they have in their life.

Jen: 49:08

one more thing. I'm sorry to cut you off, but you, because you alluded to this and I saw John Mayer in a clip recently talking about why he quit drinking. And he said exactly what you said that he, and I don't remember if it was like somebody posed this question to him or if he just came up with this on his own, but basically he thought to himself, do you want to be? A mediocre version of yourself, or you, do you want to be a great version of yourself? Do you want to get a hundred percent out of life or 50%? And he kind of had this rationalization, like, well, I could keep drinking and I could drink for the rest of my life and be a 50, 60 percent version of myself. And, and he's like, and that would have been fine. I'll continue to create music. I'll have a great life. I'll make good money. Like my life won't be terrible. I kind of want to be a hundred percent version of myself and that's why I don't drink. And I was like, yes, that's a, I loved that. And again, that's not to say I won't drink again, but I just loved that outlook of you can, you can look at yourself in stages of your life. And if you're always kind of checking in with that question, is alcohol serving me, I feel like you can almost like bumper cars. You know, you can keep yourself in the middle of that lane on a healthy path and you might, you might go through a phase where you're like. Oh, alcohol is not really serving me. That's where I found myself. It's why I committed to another year. Cause I was like, it's not really serving me right now. I want to get it out. I want to focus on other things and I don't want to be bothered with the am I, am I not today question. And so for me, and it just works with my brain saying I'm not drinking for the year, makes it very easy because now it's not even an option so I can just go about my life without am I, or aren't I in my brain right now. So, and that's just how my brain works, so sorry to interrupt, but I think, yeah, I think it's a question that, you know, we can expand this conversation beyond, do I have a problem to, is this making my life better? Is this helping me create the life that I see in my imagination? And I think more people than not would say, no,

Laurie: 51:10

I really love the reframe of is alcohol serving me because I think so many women in particular are worried about what is their life look like to other people. And I know that, you know, we're trying to live a more authentic life. We're trying to, uh, be in a more judgment free zone and really live the life that we want to live. But I think for a lot of women, high successful midlife women who, you know, from the outside, it looks like everything is going their way. They don't really want the pressure of. Being judged or somebody thinking that they think they have a problem. Um, so I love the, it's, it's different to say and ask yourself, am I being served by this right now? Because then, then you don't have to, you don't have to ask yourself, is this a problem? It could be a problem, but it, it's, it's an easier question. I think it's a lower bar to, you know, if a problem is up here, then. Just asking yourself, is alcohol serving me, is a much lower, um, threshold to get over. And I think too, because, you know, you did 2020, you didn't drink in 2020, you went back to drinking. Drinking, it feels like there is this expectation that you either drink or you don't. And there's no gray area in the middle. So,

Jen: 52:37

and there is a huge gray area.

Laurie: 52:39

Totally. I mean, you're this whole idea that you're either a drinker or you're, you're completely sober. There, there is a lot of, you know, you can be sober ish. Mostly you don't drink or mostly you don't whatever your tool of choice is, right? It could be food. It could be sex. It could be shopping. It could be all sorts of things, but just because you might have a drink or two. Every now and then you can still live a mostly sober lifestyle. AA probably disagrees with me, but. Well,

Jen: 53:20

and you know what? Yeah. Let's we'll keep AA out of the conversation because. That's, that's a whole cult of people that won't like what I have to say. Anyway, I know, I know I have, I have many good friends that AA has really helped. Honestly, one of the reasons that gravitated me towards Heron Project is because they do AA different and they recover out loud. And I just think that that's super powerful because. I think the anonymous part of AA, and this is where I get in trouble, but I think that that is what perpetuates the shame of people in that community, is this feeling of, of being anonymous. And I got into AA. Huge debate with a friend of mine who is sober and in AA and it, we just disagree. We just had to agree to disagree because he was like, I know a lot of people that are anonymous, but it's not because they're ashamed and blah, blah. And I just was like, okay, all right. I mean, listen, like we can, I just know my lived experience and my lived experience was AA failed three members of my family and they all carry a shitload of shame about being addicts. So, I mean, that's. I'm going to extend my experience and I'm maybe that's why I've come at us. If AA is, if you, I know a lot of people that it has served, well, this isn't a friend of mine who's in the zero proof project. And so I don't mean any judgment, but this person also isn't, he's recovering out loud. So, um, I think like there is a huge gray area. It is the people that is who I want to reach over the aisle to. And especially women, you know, being a woman myself is I, I want to get to the women who, who don't feel comfortable being somebody who. chooses not to drink. Like there's no shame in that. And we should feel like that's a superpower. Like I want women to feel the confidence I do to go out into the world and be who you are and literally not care what somebody else thinks. Because if somebody else has an opinion about the fact that you don't drink, like I said, it is because they feel insecure about their own drinking period. End of story. Because your drinking has zero impact on the majority of people in your life. It's going to impact your spouse, your partner, the people in your closest inner circle if you're abusing it. Beyond that, your drinking is irrelevant to somebody else's life, so why would they care? And I just want more people to hear that and understand the majority of people go through life not thinking about you. So if they're hyperfixated on you not drinking, it's really just a projection of how they feel about themselves onto you because they're not ready to do something about their own. And listen. If you decide that you want to give up alcohol for a year and you find yourself having a hard time, that is the time to ask yourself a question, hmm, like what's going on here? Is this a problem? So I'll, I'll, this is a kind of an interesting time to interject this story, but a friend of mine has had very high blood pressure issues, ended up having a heart attack last summer, which was like being blindsided. I mean, he's a very healthy guy, super active, super fit, eats healthy, all the, all the things. He's got this high blood pressure. They've got him on high blood pressure meds, which are really impacting him. He was feeling dizzy and headaches and brain fog and, you know, just. It was really negatively impacting his life and he was super down about it. And so he would say, I'm doing everything I can. And I one day, cause he has done dry January with me for several years. And I had been kind of going, why don't you do the zero proof project with me? And he's not a, not a big drinker. Now I had seen his drinking ramp up though, because he's super depressed about this high blood pressure. Well, I mean, you don't have to do much research to know that alcohol negatively impacts blood pressure. So one night at dinner, I said, well, you're not actually doing everything you could be doing. And he's like, what are you talking about? Yes, I am. And I said, listen, no judgment. No, you're not because you're drinking and drinking negatively impacts blood pressure in a very direct way. So if you really want to feel better, why not commit to an entire year? Right? Like, so fast forward New Year's Eve, he trips and, and snaps his ankle and it's because he's on these blood thinners because of all the heart stuff, he's bruised head to toe. And I take one look at him on New Year's Day and I was like. Holy shit. And I, at first I just brought him lunch and then I brought him dinner and I got home and was eating my own dinner and had the thought, fuck it, we're going to the hospital. Like, cause you're on these blood thinners. You could have internal bleeding. Totally. Yep. So I forced him to go to the ER. He ends up in the hospital for three days. Because his sodium was near death low. So drinking obviously affects hydration. It also lowers sodium. It affects your sodium absorption or whatever the, the, this, the, you know, I'm not, I'm not a doctor. So what the doctors told him in the hospital and he was open with them, like about what, how, you know, how much he had been drinking, whatever. The bottom line is he realized like, holy shit. I didn't, I never really realized what an impact it was having and you're right, I wasn't doing everything I can. So now fast forward, we're the 19th of January and like I said, he's done dry January every year for the last several years. He said all of his brain fog is gone. All of his dizziness is gone. The lack of balance is like all of these symptoms that he was attributing to the blood pressure meds. are gone. Yeah. 19 days and his blood pressure is completely normal. It's wild. So, yeah.

Laurie: 59:12

Well, I mean, it's called intoxication for a reason. Yeah. The alcohol is a toxin, right? It's a poison. Anyway. Correct. Yep. It is. Um. Yeah. Um, okay. So, it is, at the time we are recording this episode, it, we are two thirds of the way through January. If somebody wanted, excuse me, to join the Zero Proof Project, is

Jen: 59:36

it too late? No, absolutely not. And, you know, we're gonna keep posting about it all year. Maybe somebody gets to March and decides I want to ditch it. I mean, I really want the Dragon oil community to be in a community of people that are not just sharing stories of people in recovery from like some hardcore addiction. I love those stories too. They're insanely inspiring. I mean, every time I read a story in my own community, I'm blown away by the people that have scraped themselves up off the floor and found sobriety. It's amazing. Yes. But I also want to include the people like me or the people like you. I want it to be an open and welcome place to people that don't see themselves in those stories, but see themselves in a story like mine or a lot of other stories we're going to be sharing this year. I have several friends who are sober. And they, they actually don't even use the word sober. They use the term alcohol free because it's just a choice they've made to live a healthier life. And those are stories we're going to start to highlight. So more people can see themselves if it's so important. It's why I love to write. So I loved what you said earlier about my writing. Thank you again. But it's because I feel like it's so powerful when you can see yourself in somebody else's story because life can feel really. isolating and we get in our own head and we think it's only us and in reality, it's not only us. Most people just don't talk about it. So this is another good time for me to just tell us a short little Zach who founded Live A Great Story. He became a friend of mine after, um, I found him in 2019 for the stickers for that letter I sent out. I reached out to him, I won't even go into the whole story, but we've become friends. We'll leave it at that. He donated the stickers for a long time. He's such a sweetheart of a guy. And he actually gave up alcohol, let me think, we're in 2024, was it 2022 and he kept going? Yeah. So he actually decided to do a year alcohol free in 2022. And he is still alcohol free today. I just, you know, you can really inspire people by just being open and honest about your story. And, you know, to the people that do judge you, like I'm sure that there are people that I know in my life that see the things that I share on social media and roll their eyes and I'm okay with that, keep scrolling. You know? Right. It's just, so what? There's what, 8 billion people in the world? Yeah. I mean, a fraction of the people in this world know me, and a fraction of those people love me, and I'm cool with that. Yes. Like, if I can just share my story and help one person, it means that my life meant something bigger than me. And that's just really my goal. That's

Laurie: 1:02:19

your legacy, right? Yeah.

Jen: 1:02:21

Yeah. And my brothers, I get to carry

Laurie: 1:02:22

your brothers. Yeah. Yeah. Pair it together. Um, okay. So, um, not too late to join the zero proof project. What, what does that look like? You, you mentioned there's a community, is that online? Is it on social media? If somebody was interested in. You know, move either moving from dry January into the zero proof project for the year, or just like you said, it's, it's February, March alcohol's no longer serving me for what I want to do this year. How would they get involved? So

Jen: 1:02:54

sign up through the link we're going to include, and then I will add you onto the list of people. So it's actually, it's, it's exciting. So every Monday night we have a zoom check in call. So we've had two so far. They will either be short or long, whatever naturally happens, depending on how many people join. So like, the first Monday I think there were ten people on the call, this past Monday there were four people on the call. You know, everybody's lives are busy, so when you can join, you can join, great. Every week it's just a check in. What were your wins from this last week? What were the hard parts? Did you struggle? Did you not? Do you have anything to share? Any tips, tricks, um, you know, a mocktail you made? Like I made non alcoholic margaritas last Friday that were delicious. So, you know, just that kind of stuff. And I Are you sharing that recipe? I will share that recipe. They were, I found it online. I, and the online recipe actually didn't have non alcoholic tequila in it, which I thought was odd, but I made my own simple syrup. I made my own, um, jalapeno cilantro, simple syrup, which was like, couldn't have been easier. And then ritual tequila with, you know, some lime juice and some tonic. It was, I mean, I, it tasted really close to the real thing, I have to say. They are yummy. I think there are a lot

Laurie: 1:04:08

of people out there that don't realize that there is zero proof alcohol.

Jen: 1:04:12

There's zero, yeah, I mean, and there are so, I, I have yet to find a good zero proof wine unfortunately. I agree. They're all crap. I agree. There are so many good non alcoholic beers, it's ridiculous. And these zero proof alcohols, if you're making a mocktail, like, it's really close. And here's what's interesting, because I made delicious chicken fajita tacos, and I made these margaritas, I mean, I salted the rim, the whole deal. I didn't have more than one. And I rarely have more than one non alcoholic drink. So what's interesting is that for me, my drinking is very ritualistic. Like if I went to, for instance, if I went to an Italian restaurant and they served me wine in one of those like short little juice glasses, because it's. I would not be interested in drinking wine. So, part of drinking wine for me is the whole experience, the glass, everything about it feels fancy. I mean, in my mind, it's very sophisticated and there's something about that whole experience that I love. If you take that away, I'm not all that interested anymore. So with the margarita, because it didn't have the addictive alcohol in it, it didn't make me want a second one. So it satisfied my desire and like want for that cocktail experience, but because there was no alcohol that was making my brain go, Ooh, have another. There was nothing in me that made me want to make a second one. And I really rarely have ever had two non alcoholic beers either. So I kind of found that interesting. I noticed it last week for whatever that's worth. So joined through the Google doc and then the Monday calls, we're also going to have guest speakers. So like this coming Monday, Dan Carity is going to join me. And I met him because he is, so he's a judge on Holland's got talent. He is a choreographer in Hollywood. He worked with Justin Timberlake with Britney Spears back in the day. Um, so. You know, he's in that world, he really crashed and burned in 2020. He has a book out called, If I'm Being Honest, which I thought was really good. I just finished reading it. And, um, so he got sober in 21, I believe. Maybe 22. No, 21. I'm pretty sure. And, um, Yeah, he did. 21, his one year anniversary was in 22, and he shared his story with our community. I believe John or Nicole found his story online, and then because he had shared his community, Nicole said to me, hey, by the way, this guy, I didn't know who he was, but I'm getting all these notifications, like. You know, tons of notifications. I'm like, who is this guy that all these people are interacting with a story? And she's like, he's some guy in Hollywood. So she said, you know, he's got a podcast. Maybe he'd have you on his podcast. And so I reached out to him. He responded back. It was pretty funny. He was, you know, in a very nice way, basically saying, who are you? And why would I have you on my podcast? And then I gave him a snippet of my story. And he was like, I'd love to have you on my podcast. And it just turned out that I was heading East for a 10K. So I told him. You know, I'm not a big zoom person when we can do in person, I prefer it. So I'm going to be East. If you want, we can do it in person. And he was like, that'd be great. And then he proceeds to tell me that I inspired him to run the 10 K with me. And it was a Heron project event. So I flew to New Jersey, we recorded the podcast and then he and his nephew and I, he drove me to Long Island. We stayed at a hotel. The 10 K together and. Actually, he wrote in the inside of his book, because he sent me a copy. Um, I'm so glad we're connected that, you know, you inspired me to get moving again. And he's now done two Iron Mans. It's just bananas. Yeah, like he used to be a fit guy and, um, you know, his drinking took over and he just Gave up on that physical part. And so because I had reached out to him randomly and we recorded this podcast and I was running a 10k, he's like, you know what, I'm going to run that 10k with you. And I was like, Oh shit. And so we've become friends. So he's going to be a speaker on Monday and I've got a lot of other cool people lined up. So like Chris Herron, that's an obvious one, right? He's going to join me. Um, Hilary Phelps is, you know, she's come out as, so do you know who she is? I mean, you know who Michael Phelps is, right? Okay. So it's his sister. So she's been in recovery, I think she just passed 15 years and, but was anonymous for all of it. And then just recently came out and spoke openly and is now in the health and wellness, um, holistic, you know, um, Space and she's a coach and she's, I haven't met her yet. We've had a, we've had a call, but she's just a really cool human. So I've got really cool people lined up to just join on some of these calls, just to share their story and answer questions and inspire the group. And then we're doing monthly chips. So, you know, Keri from kind bomb. From the 29029 community. So we're going to do chips. Um, so if you've, you know, every month that you complete, you're going to get a chip with a new saying on it. So anybody who's done the 12 months gets, we'll have 12 chips at the end of the year. And it's just a community of people to support. So I'll be honest, last weekend had a moment where just, I was, you know, some shit happened and I was aggravated, very aggravated, and I, I found myself feeling this, like agitation where I would have poured a glass of wine. And I didn't. And I thought to myself, I wonder if I wasn't doing this with community. If I would have poured that glass of wine. I don't know. I'd like to think that I wouldn't have, but the reality is doing something with community is really powerful and that support network, even though you're not in touch 24 seven, but just knowing that you have a community of people doing something along with you and experiencing things. Like you are, and then you get to chat about them on a Monday and share like, Oh, I experienced this, this week. Like I shared that with them on Monday. And then I will typically follow up with a newsletter in the middle of the week, just to really just to follow up summary email that's both for the people that were on the call and for the people that couldn't make it so like. After the first week's call, I shared the mocktail recipe and a bunch of links for other options. So there's engagement there. And then I'm just always there for people to reach out to, you know, if they have a question or a need and I just, yeah, it's exciting. I I'm pumped up about it and all are welcome anytime throughout the year. Jump in whenever it feels like it's right for you. Um. It will change your life. I mean, I can also say that with a hundred percent guarantee, like eliminating alcohol for any prolonged period of time will change your life for the better. Period. It's a simple, it really is as simple as that. And I'd say if you don't believe me, give it a try. Try and prove me wrong. Throw it down. I love it. Yeah. Um, okay. Two

Laurie: 1:10:56

questions

Jen: 1:10:57

that we

Laurie: 1:10:58

ask all of the guests on the School of Midlife podcast. Number one, if you could go back with all of the information and knowledge and skills and wisdom and everything that you have at this point. If you could go, if you could go back, what would you tell your 30 year old self? Woo,

Jen: 1:11:18

mama, that's a big one. Well, so, I'm gonna, this is the first time I've talked publicly about this, Laurie, so I'm gonna drop a bomb on you right now. But it is, it is what I would go back and tell my 30 year old self. Um, my, my therapist that I've been seeing for several years passed away. She was diagnosed with cancer and passed away very unexpectedly last year, which was a doozy of a blow for me. And, um, so When I was ready to find a new therapist, I did, and I had seen her a couple times when she said to me, Hey, would you ever want to take a psych eval? And I didn't really think much about the reason she asked me, but my immediate answer was, yeah, for sure.

Laurie: 1:12:01

But some people, when they, when their therapist asked them though, they might think, yeah.

Jen: 1:12:06

And my first thought was like, yeah, for sure. And she kind of smirked at the time. And she's like, I thought you might. So she obviously sees that I'm inquisitive about myself and introspective and I really want to grow as a person. And so I said, yes. So I took the test right after Thanksgiving. And so a couple of weeks ago, we, the results, you know, so they, it's like a three and a half hour test. They take, I took the test, they crunch all this data, they write up a synopsis about you. So I sat with her and then the guy, her intern, who, um, Uh, what would be the word I'm looking for? I can't think of it. I don't want to waste the time. But who, who did the test for me, right? He like asked me the questions and set me up. He factored the test. Thank you. Um, he sat in with us. So he had written this synopsis. So we were going to go through this synopsis. She's going to read it, periodically stop, say, what do you think? So we did that. She, we went through the two pages and it was kind of like, yeah, yeah, okay, check, check, check. Yep, yep, yep. And there were two spots where I was kind of like, eh, no, because I've never done drugs. Like, I smoked weed when I was a kid, but like, I've never done, I've never tried any other drug. Um, I'm way too much of a control freak. The thought of like being high for countless hours on end seems like an absolute nightmare. And so, She said something about that and I'm like, no, that's not true. I've never done drugs. She's like, well, alcohol is a drug. And I went, oh, okay. All right, fine. And then at another point she talked about suicide and I said, I'm not, I've never been suicidal. And then I had to stop and go, well, I'm not really like literally, but have I had really. Dark moments where I've thought would life just be like would it be just easier if I wasn't around like yeah I have definitely had moments like that. So then she pulls out this Bar graph and she's like so I really hesitated showing you this but I want to show you because we talk a lot She and I have talked a lot about narcissism and I Believe that kind of runs in my family and it would be my worst nightmare to be a narcissist. I think it's such an Disgusting character trait. And so, you know, I, I work real hard to just kind of be tuned into who I am and like, always be dialed into my motivation for things. And she has said to me before, like, I sometimes think it must be exhausting to be you. Like your, your brain never turns off. And it's, it's true. Like I'm a voracious podcast listener and book listener and all these things. And so she puts this bar graph down and. I tested, so it's like below average, average, above average, and I tested above average for depression, which surprised me a little bit because I don't, on the surface, feel depressed. And then it was a smidge into the above average for narcissism, which I was like, Oh! You know, like wrong, like I said, exactly, right. Um, but you know, and then I, I said to her, I go, well, I've done a lot of research on narcissism and most of the things I listened to and I'm like, no, that's not me. No, that's not me. But every once in a while, like I think maybe because the love bomb stuff. Like I tend, I tend to connect with people very quickly and love bombing. I'm like, yeah, that resonates with me a little bit. I have had like my old therapist, Meredith, bless her heart, who passed away. She actually said to me once, you don't have bad boundaries. You have no boundaries. So I've been working very hard on that. Um, so that didn't, I, I was like, okay, I, yeah, I see that. But then the third one like blew me out of the water and it was that I tested positive for bipolar. And. That's a doozy. I mean, that's a diagnosis at 50 years old. Yeah. And I just kind of looked at her like, huh. And, but then I stopped and said, and she said, how does that make you feel? And I go, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I kind of have always thought my mom was bipolar because in my twenties, my girlfriend's mom had been diagnosed. And then she said to me, by the way, based on like my experience now, your mom is definitely bi. You know, I remember thinking, right. Oh. But I'm going to be honest, it never once, ever once dawned on me that I, that that could have been something that I would have been diagnosed with ever. In fact, I just saw her on Wednesday and said that to her. I said, if you would have bet me a thousand dollars when I took that test, that the result would come back, that I would have tested positive on the scale of bipolar, I would have bet you that thousand dollars without question. And she was like, really? And I said, Oh my God, a hundred percent. And I said, you know, maybe most people that get a diagnosis like that are ashamed or feel like a weight on them. You just literally gave me a get out of jail free card. Are you kidding me? That's like a fucking superpower. You mean I'm not a piece of shit? And she was like, what? And I said, Dr. Julie, I have been walking around for three decades of my life feeling like a piece of shit, feeling like there's something, asking myself, what is wrong with me? Why am I like this? Why am I so quick to anger? Why can I be so mean? Why can I be such a bitch? Why am I so short tempered? Why am I, why does my pendulum swing so far in every direct, you know what I mean? Why do I always feel imbalanced? I mean so much so that my, my Astrological sign, which I don't necessarily follow that, but is a balance. I'm a Libra so much so that like, that made sense to me because I always felt out of balance. And I got a, literally a scale balance scale tattoo on my body when I was in my thirties, because I was seeking so desperately for balance. I was like, Oh my God, there's a reason I'm this way. It's not just because I'm a bad person. So what I would do for my 30 year old self was I would take a fucking psych eval test 20 years ago. Yeah, I'm not kidding you. And I don't, I don't regret, like I don't look backwards. As a practice, I think regret is a useless emotion because it really only beats yourself up about things that you cannot change. I look back, so it's like, I don't regret that I didn't do that. And I don't regret that I didn't know this. Perhaps I was able to become the person I am at 50 because I didn't have that diagnosis. And so I didn't go through the last 20 years feeling like a victim or whatever. And it's bipolar too. Which is very different than bipolar one. I made it very clear to her in the moment. I said, just so you know, I made it this far with no medicine, like no. You know, being Medicaid, like I'm not interested in that. Um, so kind of like when they told me I was night when I was 19, that I needed back surgery and I was like, no, thank you, I'm not having back surgery until I literally can't get off the floor and walk, I felt this. I feel the same way now for me, myself personally about being medicated. I'm like, you just literally gave me an understanding of myself that I've never had. And the aha moment, this is such a breakthrough, the aha moment I had the week after that session, which was two weeks ago, because suicide harming, self harm, so like cutting is very big and if you've been diagnosed with bipolar, there's a lot of self harm that they talk about. I had this like, Oh my God, alcohol is my self harm. Abusing alcohol is the way I punish myself. That is my version of self harm. And listen, self harm doesn't make sense to people who aren't in it. I can't pretend to understand why somebody would cut themselves. You know what I mean? Me sitting here, I'm not judging that cause I'm like, Oh shit, that's exactly what I was doing. And so the last few weeks have been wild as a 50 year old woman to go. I thought I knew myself so well. And here's this gigantic thing that's been in my life that I have been. viciously trying to control and beating myself up that I haven't been able to control only to find out that this is just who you are and now you can manage it because you know now. And I'm going to tell you the night after that first session with her, I woke up, it's very clear in my mind. It was 2 21 in the morning because I looked at my phone sobbing, like uncontrollably sobbing in bed by myself in the dark and not because I was sad because I was diagnosed, but because I thought Of all the people that for 30 years did not pay attention, all the doctors that didn't listen, all the therapists I've seen, my own parents, all the people that missed it. I can literally pinpoint when it started in my 20s. Like they say it, the onset is typically in your 20s. Not being able to sleep is a big sign. I can think back to being in my mid 20s and going through a long period of time where I literally couldn't sleep. I couldn't explain why it came on out of nowhere. My doctor tried every single sleeping pill under the sun. None worked. I woke up on Ambien. I woke up on everything. It was miserable. And I mean, I would go like a week with barely sleeping. So I mean, that can cause a level of psychosis that's not healthy. That to me is very clearly when it came on. And so I, I sobbed for the young person that has been beating herself up into midlife that never knew that. She's okay. Like, I looked at my therapist and I'm like, you mean I'm okay? Aww. Like, I'm not a bad person? And, yeah, it's been, I mean, that turning point at 50 is wild to me. Cause I'm, I don't know about you. I don't, aging doesn't bother me at all. I kind of have always had this old, older and wiser baby attitude. And so I've always said like, I would never go back. Like, but if I could go back and know what I know now, like your question and do things over, yeah, sure. Wouldn't we all, um, I would have a lot more money. I can tell you that too, but I think like I have this sense of. Urgency that is palpable because I turned 50. I am so much more aware of my mortality and my age and my time left. And I just think it's so powerful that I got this diagnosis now because it literally was, like I said, a get out of jail, jail free card for me to be like, Oh, I get to go into the next. chapter of my life with so much knowledge. Um, so if I could go back, I would, I would take that test. So I could have made the last 20 years different. But that said, I'm super grateful for my life and with all of the bad has come a lot of good. And, you know, I'm really proud of what I'm doing with my story now. So.

Laurie: 1:22:45

I love that. I, I, it's so interesting to me. Um, thank you for sharing your recent diagnosis. Um, I am flabbergasted by the number of midlife women who are finding out for the first time that they're bipolar or that they have ADHD or, um, that they have, um, undiagnosed depression. So much of our life is Impacted by our mental state and all of the, all, most, historically, most of the diagnosis, the, the medical tests, the research is done on young boys. Mm. Young white boys, in fact, because a lot of times the the there's a the way that gender and race impact Anyway, it's fascinating to me and it's it's such a gift that at 50 you you would have that Information unlocked for yourself and and thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah for sure. Um

Jen: 1:23:56

Second question.

Laurie: 1:23:57

Okay. What have you loved most about midlife?

Jen: 1:24:02

So I just turned 50 and in October, last October 4th, um, I think that there's just a degree of confidence that comes and, uh, I don't care what anybody thinks that comes, at least it has for me, though. I didn't care much what people thought before either. I would say in my early forties or late thirties, but certainly in my twenties. Early 30s. I mean 30 was hard because I felt like Everybody I knew was getting married and having kids the society in the world around me told me that's what I should be doing So I felt like what again what is wrong with me that question? I've been asking myself on repeat for three decades What is wrong with you? I had no desire and it was a very lonely dark place. So But as I got into my mid to late 20s thirties, I really started to like grow out of that and embrace who I am. And so what I love most now, I mean, I really like who I am. I like who I am. I have a confidence that I think just comes with having lived a very colorful, um, well rounded life with the good and the bad. And I feel like I have a superpower. Like I really feel like midlife is a superpower to go into the next chapter and say, okay, I have all of this knowledge now and I can do all of these things with the life experience that I don't care how smart you are. You just don't have in your twenties. Like it's organic. Once you get into midlife, everything that you have inside of you, if you've been curious enough has grown organically to the point where now you're like, okay, this is who I am. This is who I am. I'm, I'm trying to soften out the edges that are too rough, but in general, like I'm working on myself, you know, the whole 1 percent better every day. I mean, I just, I just progress not perfection. I want to be a better version of myself every day, but not to the point where I'm so obsessed where I don't love myself right now. And I think with midlife has come this like comfort of I really love myself right now. And so it gives me the freedom to be like, Oh, but I could get just a little better.

Laurie: 1:26:08

Beautiful, beautiful. How do, how do people get in touch with you? Where, where should they find you?

Jen: 1:26:15

So Dragonolia on Instagram. So that's spelled dragon and then O L I A. So it's a combination of dragonfly and magnolia. And you can read about the why of that on the Instagram page. So at Dragonolia, and then my personal Instagram is at, I'm a. Fox 73, so that's I M as in Mary, I M A F O X 7 3, I have a great last name, and, uh, you can email me at jenniferatdragonoia. com, and if you're interested you can sign up for the Zero Proof Project through our Instagram page or through the link that you're gonna include in the notes. Thank you

Laurie: 1:26:50

so much for being here. This was, uh, I loved this conversation and I am so grateful for how open you are with sharing your story. And, um, I, I just know that the impact that your story and you sharing Justin's story, it's the ripples are, are wide and deep. So thank you. Thank you so much for sharing the story. Thank you for being here. You're

Jen: 1:27:13

welcome. Thanks for the opportunity.

1:27:18

Do you ever wish you had a community of midlife women who you could go to, to ask big life questions to have. Candid conversations about all of the things that come at us in midlife that no one else seems to be talking about. Well, great news. The School of Midlife is launching the, Your Next Chapter book club. Each month we'll be reading and discussing books that relate to the unique experiences of midlife women. It's free to join and we'd love to have you meet up with us and add your voice To these important discussions. Didn't have time to finish the book, but still interested in the conversation. No problem. Join us anyway. click the sign up link in the show notes and you'll automatically receive your invitation to join us. Get signed up, grab this month's book and start reading. And we'll look forward to seeing you at the book club this month where together we're helping each other make midlife our best life