134. What If You Could Stop Feeling Guilty for Doing What's Best for You? | A Conversation with Jessica Frew

In This Episode: midlife women, decision-making coach, overcoming guilt, perfectionism, people-pleasing, bold choices, Jessica Frew

✨ What would your life look like if you stopped living by everyone else’s rules?

In this guest episode of The School of Midlife, Laurie sits down with Jessica Frew—author, speaker, and Bold Decision Coach—on the launch day of her brand-new book, Shove Your Shoulds.

Jessica shares her incredible personal journey, from navigating a mixed-orientation marriage and divorce to co-parenting with her ex and building a beautifully unconventional life. Along the way, she unlearned a lot of what she thought she “should” be doing—and replaced it with bold, imperfect decisions rooted in trust, alignment, and self-worth.

If you’ve ever struggled with people-pleasing, guilt, second-guessing, or the fear that you’re disappointing others by living your truth—this episode is the permission slip you didn’t know you needed.

💡 In This Episode:

• Why “shoulds” are a sign you’re outsourcing your authority
• How to make bold decisions without guilt or perfection
• Jessica’s story of navigating a mixed-orientation marriage—and what came after
• What happens when you prioritize peace over people-pleasing
• The real meaning of freedom in midlife (and how to create it)
• A sneak peek into her brand-new book, Shove Your Shoulds

📚 About Jessica Frew:

Jessica is the author of Shove Your Shoulds, a speaker, and a Bold Decision Coach. She helps ambitious women unlearn the conditioning they were raised with so they can make bold, imperfect decisions without guilt, fear, or second-guessing.

Whether on stage, in coaching, or through her book, Jessica’s mission is to help women stop living by everyone else’s rules and start living boldly, unapologetically, and in full alignment with who they were created to be.

📖 Grab the Book:

🎉 Shove Your Shoulds is available now! Click here to get your FREE copy!

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https://www.schoolofmidlife.com/newsletter

👉 CONNECT WITH LAURIE:
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Transcript

What would happen if you stopped living by the rules you were taught and started living by the truth of who you really are? This week on the School of Midlife podcast, I'm joined by Jessica Frew, author, speaker, and bold decision coach whose brand new book, Shove Your Shoulds hit shelves today.

Shove Your Shoulds is all about helping women break free from guilt, perfectionism, and all the expectations that we've been conditioned to carry. Jessica's story is unlike anything you've ever heard before. As you'll hear, she is no stranger to living outside the lines. From navigating a mixed orientation, marriage to divorce, remarriage and co-parenting with her ex-husband. Her life doesn't follow a traditional script, and that's exactly the point. She's made peace with doing things her way, and now she helps ambitious women to do the same.

Unlearn all of the [00:01:00] conditioning that they were raised with, make bold, imperfect decisions and stop living by everyone else's rules. In Should Your Shoulds, Jessica combines personal stories with a powerful, practical framework that helps women finally start trusting their own intuition, without guilt, without fear, and without constantly second guessing themselves. How refreshing would that be?

Whether you're facing a relationship crossroads, a professional pivot, or a deeper identity shift in midlife, This conversation will remind you. You don't need permission to change your life. This episode, this conversation is honest and hopeful and packed with insight about what it really means to live in full alignment with who you were created to be.

It's full of truth bombs and occasional swear word, real talk, and a beautiful reminder that you don't need to be perfect to be powerful. You just need to be willing to do what's best for you. Please enjoy this conversation with Jessica Frew.

Welcome to the School of Midlife podcast. [00:02:00] I'm your host, Laurie Reynoldson.

This is the podcast for the midlife woman who starting to ask herself big life questions. Like, what do I want? Is it too late for me? And what's my legacy beyond my family and my work. Each week we're answering these questions and more. At the School of Midlife, we're learning all of the life lessons they didn't teach us in school and we're figuring out finally what it is we want to be when we grow up. Let's make midlife your best life. 

Laurie: Jessica, I am thrilled to have you here today. Welcome to the School of Midlife podcast. Will you please do me a favor and just introduce yourself and tell the listeners what it is you do?

Jessica: Yeah, my name is Jessica Frew, obviously. I am a wife, Ex-wife, mom, stepmom, and I am a bold action taker. I help women make decisions in their life as [00:03:00] they are going through transition, or maybe they're like, I just don't feel that I'm in alignment with my decision making power or what it is I want, and I help them work through that process to be deeply connected to themselves so they can take bold, imperfect action as well.

Laurie: Amazing. Well, there's a lot to unpack there, so let's get into it. What does bold action mean to you?

Jessica: Being bold. I think when we hear that word, we sometimes think, oh, I need to be loud and flashy, and that's just not me. Like, I don't align with that and people see me. I, I sometimes have my head shaved, I've got hair that sticks up. I wear loud clothes. Like that is very much me. Maybe the typical version of what you see.

Um, but what it really means is that you are taking action that feels good for you, which often feels kind of bold and sometimes uncomfortable and not great. And so we want you to learn how to make that feel more comfortable. How do I take action that is alignment for me that [00:04:00] I feel called to?

My dad growing up always said, you got to BB, Jessica. You gotta BB. And uh, that meant you need to be bold.

And it was in big decisions or small decisions it told me, He supported me in doing what was best for me. And that was always the messaging that he gave me was, you need to BB, and do what's best for you. And I just love that. And so now I help women do that same thing where we don't have to be like anybody else. It's getting you in alignment with who you are and what feels really good to you.

Laurie: I love all of that. I am curious that your dad would tell you to BB, because my understanding is you grew up in a pretty conservative religious family is, and, um, one that is not necessarily known for, um, encouraging women to speak out and use their big indoor voices and, and be bold. So, um, was there [00:05:00] any ever, I don't know if, if friction is what I'm looking for,

Jessica: word.

Laurie: how, how, how did that play out when you, in your life growing up?

Jessica: For sure. Uh, yes. I was raised in the Mormon church, LDS Church of Jesus Christ, Latterday Saints, however you want to identify that religion. Uh, very conservative, high demand religion. And I, you know, there was, there was friction for me, and especially at a young age, while I would say like junior high, high school, I didn't look like I was supposed to look like I was very straight edge in all of the other things because it worked for me. I was following those rules because it felt good and I felt empowered and healthy in doing and making those decisions. It felt, it just felt good. But I didn't look, the part I always had, I didn't have necessarily this hair, but I had short hair and my aunt was in cosmetology school, so we were [00:06:00] constantly messing with it and doing things.

I always wore clothes that were just different, like it wasn't trending clothes, it was just whatever I wanted to wear, and I didn't fit the Mormon mold. In fact, my first husband was like, Jessica, you need to like get the little Mormon dress that has the flowers on it and the buttons down the front. And I'm like, Steve, you married me because I don't fit that mold, so don't try and put me in that. And he's like, oh. Yeah, you're right.

So that was something I had to kind of wrestle with of why do I feel this way? Is it rebellion? Am I trying to be wrong? Because I wanted, I wanted to be good. I wanted that, like that was important to me. And I realized, no, this is just who I was created to be. And recognizing that at that age, when we are so told who we need to be, who we should be, and all of those things, and what we should look like and how we should dress.

It felt really important to me to own that, to be who I was, and so there was friction there and there's obviously [00:07:00] been friction throughout my life as life has definitely not gone as planned, I think not even. I mean, even outside of religion, we have this path. We kind of see that we're supposed to follow.

We go to school, we graduate high school, we go to college, we graduate college, we get married, we have the kids, and life is gonna be great. Like things are gonna work out. And that was very much not my path and what happened. And so I think that there has been friction in understanding what is best for me both inside religion and outside of religion.

Like how do I make my life work for me now when things are happening that are outside of my control?

Laurie: And, and what about your, with your dad? I mean, did he No, he was

Jessica: there was no friction.

Laurie: Oh, love that.

Jessica: I feel like I, my parents have probably had moments where they felt that friction of like, oh my gosh, what? I know they have, but I don't remember a time ever questioning that [00:08:00] they were behind me, that they had my back. That they were like, Okay. You know, I mean, I, I, no hesitation was there and just being like, alright, Jess.

And still is sometimes, I mean, they live like half a mile from me and, uh, I know there's moments where they're just like, what are you doing? But they also show up and show me support and it's a true gift to be able to have that, that I do not take for granted or take lightly for sure.

Laurie: The, the very best gift you can give your children, right? I mean, and, and how beautiful for them to model that. So that gives you a touch point in raising your own. Children. Um, fantastic. You're your daughter, right?

Jessica: Yes. Yep.

Laurie: Um, how, when you're working with your clients, do you set them up to maybe start, maybe, I don't know, live into that bold action?

Jessica: Yeah, [00:09:00] I mean the very first part of it, for, for a long time I facilitated support groups. And it wasn't for addicts, it was for friends and family of different types of addicts. And in that process, these people were coming and they wanted to be told how to change the other person, how to, you know, how do I change this person?

And really it came back to us and how do we support ourselves? And we have to have that first step of acknowledgement. And so that is where we start with my clients as well, is we have to acknowledge that there is something that feels off there, is something that isn't working for me. The conditioning that I have received and been living into, isn't working and I want something different. And we start, I always like in my decision making process that we go through, the first step is be gentle. And we are going to do this in a way that feels gentle and loving. Instead of that is like releasing, we're gonna release the guilt and the shame, like we're not gonna carry that forward in the [00:10:00] decision making process.

And I think so often we think that's the way forward. I need to beat myself up. I need to criticize myself so that I can do better. I can be better. I need to show myself constantly where I'm failing. And so we start there. Where it's like, no, this, you've been doing this your whole life and it's not serving you.

You're not living, you're living into these shoulds. You're living into what the expectations are and it's not working for you. So we gotta acknowledge that.

And I do a "should challenge" with a lot of my clients when we're in this be gentle phase. That is, we identify one should a day that we're putting on ourselves, and I pick the word "should" because it's an easy way to identify where we are judging ourselves. Usually when we say should, it means we're putting some sort of judgment on ourselves. That's why my book is called Shove Your Shoulds, and it's actually about decision making and trusting our intuition and getting to know ourselves. But we have to start there. We have to start with this idea of recognizing where we are [00:11:00] placing that judgment. I should wear this. I should do my hair this way, I should do this workout, I should eat this food. I should, you know, do this as a mom, do this as a partner. I should do this in my business. Like all of these things that we've internalized are the correct way to do things.

Then even, I should be grateful. I should feel this way. This should be enough. We have to start recognizing those. So one thing a day that you say, um, I'm saying the word should, you don't have to do anything with it. We are simply recognizing and acknowledging it's there.

Laurie: So powerful. I, I understand exactly how powerful that would be and just even the recognition of

Jessica: mm.

Laurie: Decades of conditioning. I wanna talk about your book, but I want to just explore this just a little bit further before we, um, pivot over and talk about the book. Most of your clients, how old are they? Where are they in life? Is it midlife? Are they, are they coming to you younger than that, or are they kids are [00:12:00] grown. They're out of the house. You know how, how old are most women that you work with?

Jessica: It's usually 35 on up. Now, my most committed clients, and you know, usually highest pain are the women who are 45 and up because they are done living in this. They have really hit the point where they're like, I am out, I am done. I don't want to live in this conditioning anymore. And at that point there's a, like you're saying, there's a lot of conditioning.

We are unpacking here and we're unraveling. And so I just keep wishing that we can get like lower and lower with that age of who we're supporting and women understanding this. And I think on some level we are just because people are seeing the work we're doing at 45, 50, 60, whatever, you know. And so then they're like, okay, I wanna start doing this now when I'm in my twenties and thirties.

And then the younger teenagers are seeing like, oh, I get to be myself. I don't need to do X, Y, and Z to fit in. I get to be myself and then that draws in the people I want in my life. [00:13:00] So it's beautiful to do this work at any age and I love it. Um, but yeah, I think that as we are doing this right now in our midlife, you know, having these midlife awakenings and going through The Midlife School and all these things that we get to then impact younger generations and ideally we keep getting younger and younger where we're releasing this conditioning.

Laurie: I 100% agree. I will tell you that most of the women that I work with, you know, forties, fifties, sixties, but I feel like it's, it's this really interesting generational shift that's going on, which is, i'm a Gen Xer. We were raised, you know, we could do it all. Um, and we, we almost like took that as a competition, like, game on, here we go, we're gonna do all of it.

Jessica: Still do sometimes.

Laurie: yes, and I feel like the women who are coming up behind us a bit, they aren't as resigned to [00:14:00] head down hard work. I have to stay the course because that's the path that I was on. You know, I'm gonna make this work at all costs, kind of white, knuckling it. And, and, and they are, the younger women are, are realizing, you know what?

This job or this relationship isn't serving me, so I'm gonna do something else.

Jessica: Out.

Laurie: Are you finding that at all?

Jessica: Yes. And what a gift that not only were, are we here doing this work at our age, but also being able to watch these women do that. And to this, I mean, we've been fed such a lie that we can do it all. It's such bull crap. And yet there's still deep conditioning them. I'm like, yeah, I can get everything done today.

I can do, I can do the laundry, I can clean the house. I can be this perfect perfect partner. I call it perfect partner syndrome. I can be the best mom and also build this business or have a career or all these things. And I'm like, yes, you can do all of those things, but maybe we don't have to do them at the [00:15:00] standard we've been conditioned to believe they have to be done at.

We don't have to be the Pinterest perfect mom and running a business that's making millions of dollars and like all of these things. But instead, let's understand how we focus on the gifts we're truly given to amplify those because then we bring everybody up with us. And we're not teaching our kids that they need to do it all, that they need to get themselves to burnout, that they need to keep going until they're miserable, and then rethink everything.

I'm like, no, let's like not get to that point anymore.

Laurie: I do think that there is something about because we are doing this work ourselves, It's an interesting legacy that we are modeling for our children. You know, our, our, our girls see that it's okay for mom to have different dreams and be able to pursue those. It's a, it's a great model for our sons to see that a, a [00:16:00] woman's role isn't just to support her husband and take care of her children.

That you know, it's, it's the rising tide lifts all boats, right? It's, it's really a beautiful way for us to move through life and model what we're living and teaching lessons to the, the children that we are raising up.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. My daughter's almost 16. I have, my stepdaughter is 17 and they both live with us full time, which is so great. I love them so much. They're amazing. But my daughter, the other day, we were talking about something, one of her friends and her friend is an only child, and Penny's kind of like, I'm like, you're kind of half an only child because she's my only biological child.

It's an interesting dynamic, but she's like, Her mom is so hyper-focused on her that like, what is going to happen when she moves out on both ends of this? Like how are they going to function without each other? And I thought it was so interesting that she's already seen [00:17:00] that and processing that, that like, yes, it's important, like being a mom the most important work I do. Like I love it. It's so invigorating. It's also really hard and it's beautiful and amazing.

And also it's not everything about me. And I love that she's seen that, that she sees that like, oh, it's okay for my mom to think about herself, to take care of herself, to say, Hey, you guys gotta take care of this 'cause I don't feel good. Or, Hey, I have a podcast interview. I can't get you there. You need to go take care of X, Y, and Z.

And so, It's so fun to see that. Like, and, and it's true, like this is the messaging now that these younger generation gets to see is I'm not trying to do it all and I'm not trying to do it all perfectly. I'm just doing the things I feel called to with bold, imperfect action and I mess a lot of things up and that's okay.

But we learn and we grow and like sharing those experiences with them too, of like, this is not a perfect process.

Laurie: It's so interesting [00:18:00] how we were almost raised with this idea that there's success and failure and nothing in between, and to be perfect. Or to perfect something actually means that you've done something before and you're actually making it better. But we're so worried about being perfect right out of the gate.

What, how will I be judged if I'm not perfect? What will they say about me if I don't do this right? And it, it is really kind of, it, it's done a bit of a disservice for us. And I think where the work that you are doing is so impactful because it's, it's getting women out of that I have to be perfect. I'm either succeeding or failing.

And tying it back to, well, no, all I need to do is take one bold action and if, and, and if, if this is not how you teach it, then let me know. But my sense is you take one bold [00:19:00] action and then you reassess like how, right. Maybe you could walk us through that a little bit.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. To your point here of like, we are never going to do anything perfectly. There is nothing in our lives that is going to be perfect and that's beautiful. That's amazing. Like there's nothing that we look at that's perfect and we think that is so beautiful, like. It's just not that way. In fact, when we see something that's maybe close to perfect, it's intimidating.

It's almost off-putting because it's not reality for us. It's not attainable, it doesn't feel relatable. And so in that, I always say, you know, we are going to take bold, imperfect action and a hundred percent, if you don't take the action, you have nothing to understand where to go next. So if you're just taking in all the information, if you're overthinking, if you're analyzing to death and thinking that that is going to get you the confidence to act, I call bullshit because it's not gonna get you anywhere.

It's going to keep you stuck in your head and you are [00:20:00] going to feel like a failure. Because you have not acted.

Confidence comes when we make the decision and we act on it. That is when we have the information we need on the other side to continue forward. I mean that if my life has taught me anything, it is that like I have moved forward in so many like interesting situations.

My ex-husband's gay, he had an affair with a man. We are still best friends to this day. We've been divorced for 14 years, like. All of these things that have happened in my life, and yet I've been able to create something that feels really good to me and that is full of love and support for my ex, for my daughter, for my current husband, for his kids, and all these things.

And it's not what it should look like. And it was far from perfect, and yet it is the most beautiful thing in my life. But if I hadn't. Taken my next best step. If I hadn't moved forward. I never would've gotten here if I never would've said, [00:21:00] Hey, let's kinda like figure out what we want divorce to look like for us.

Like, let's make a plan about this. And then acted on that plan of we're gonna try to stay friends, somehow, we wouldn't be here. We would be stuck in that iter bitterness and anger and resentment that so many of us get hung up on in life. Because we're not taking aligned action. We're not taking any action, but we're pissed and angry because there's something in us that doesn't feel good.

But we won't acknowledge that we have the power to do something with that.

Laurie: And it's so different than most divorced couples that we see, right. Especially that are still trying to raise children. I mean, it, it feels like that there are camps on, I'm on her side. I'm on his side. Never the two shall meet. Uh, you know, it, it's almost like, uh, somebody goes through a divorce and then the friends all split up.

But what you have created, what you have taken the time to step [00:22:00] back and say, how do we make this work for us? And not even pay any attention to what anybody else outside of us is saying, but what's gonna work for us? That is incredible. I mean, was that something that the two of you came to together or was that you sort of taking bold action in one direction saying we should really. Like, figure this out. WW was there, were you worried about w what he would say in return?

Jessica: I think at that point I don't, I'm sure I was worried like we're, there's always some worry there of what's, what are they gonna say? What are people gonna think? What are whatever. At some point, you just gotta go, I just don't give a crap. This is the thing that I want. This is the thing that I know feels in alignment and I'm gonna throw logic out the door and I'm gonna move forward and see what happens.

And so in that, in the divorce process, it was like, okay, we're gonna feel all these big [00:23:00] feelings. 'cause there was a lot going on for him coming out. He was scared to death to come out. He was struggling with that. I am dealing with his betrayal and all of that, and the fact I'm getting divorced and moving across the country with a 2-year-old, like just so many things and we, we had to kind of like separate out our feelings. We, we held space for each other, but also there were times I'm like, I can't carry you right now. You gotta go find somebody else to be carried by or carry yourself because I'm not in a good space either.

So we had lots of those conversations, but really, I came to Steve and I was like, listen, I do not want our daughter to ever question which parent can be in the room at anything that's important to her. I don't want her to have to worry about us being in the same room. And I used to like lay out things like when she graduates, when she has kids, when she gets married, and now I'm just don't even say that because I'm trying to release some of that conditioning for her of what her life should look like.

[00:24:00] Uh, it's not that I don't say some of those things occasionally, but, if you choose this, then I am there type thing. But we wanted, that's ultimately what we came to is, this is the thing that is the most important to us, is this little girl. She was two at the time. And how do we create a relationship within us that she never has to question that and.

We've based our decisions kind of off of that idea of we are going to create this. This is the vision for us. We're hopefully welcoming and partners that are okay with us being friends. And we hadn't seen anything like that before. You just didn't hear that version of divorce. It was there, but you didn't hear it because again, people wanna take sides.

People want to be angry. People want to do like all these things when divorce happens because they wanna know they're safe from divorce. They wanna know that their relationship is safe. They wanna know that they're doing the right things to not get [00:25:00] there. Which, I mean, a lot of people had peace of mind knowing Steve was gay.

Like, oh, he's gay. I'm like, that's not like a one and done. But that's a whole nother story. Still creates a lot of

Laurie: so ridiculous when people, you know, in their judgy way, even though they, they don't feel like they're being judgy, but, um, yeah, how they just, judgment is all about projection. Right.

Jessica: Yes. Yes.

Laurie: gosh, if it can happen to her, I, it could probably happen to me. Oh, but he's gay, so that's not gonna

Jessica: My husband's not gay. Oh man, I hope your husband's not gay 'cause it's a ride. But, um, anyway, so it was just a lot of having those conversations and being able to make mistakes in that. We, and kudos to Steve and um, and he, I know would give kudos to me for the times we have made mistakes and had to come to the other one and be like, Hey, this happened, or I'm sorry, I overreacted and said those things like you, we are real, like [00:26:00] life happens. Mistakes were made. But being able to see, you know, this was coming from his hurt and pain and this was coming from my hurt and pain, and also this is coming from just being human like mistakes we've made with our daughter and giving each other grace instead of instantly using that to pull the other person down or to victimize them or to show that they are a horrible parent or whatever. Instead we were like, okay, I see this. I'm giving you grace now 'cause I know I'm gonna need it next, like next week probably. So there was a lot of that. There were a lot of big conversations. Um, and my current husband has stepped into that as well of being open to having these conversations and being open to saying, Hey, this situation wasn't working for me, but this is okay. And all of us hearing that and being like, yeah, we can see why you would feel uncomfortable with that. And so it's a lot. But hard conversations, bold, hard conversations really change the game for us.

Laurie: I wanna move to the book now because I feel, and, [00:27:00] and maybe I'm skipping , some steps, so if I am, let's go back and talk about it. But it seems like you grew up in a very religious community. You had a marriage that ended and you recreated the vision of what a post-divorce relationship, a, a post-divorce family looks like.

And so everything that you should do or should have done it, it's like you threw it out the window. And now you've created this book, Shove Your Shoulds. I want, I want you to tell us about where did that come from? Was it just, i've been modeling this. I've been living this. I feel like women need to hear this.

Was it Come outta your coaching. Talk to us about how Shove Your Shoulds came to be.

Jessica: Yeah, it's definitely a combination of those two things, of taking this life that I have lived and that people are always just like listening to our story and they're like, what? Like what happened next? [00:28:00] Which we hosted a podcast for five years, my husband, my ex-husband, and myself. Sharing all of our stories. So if you're like, I need to understand this more, you can go listen to that from

Laurie: What was that called?

Jessica: Husband in-law.

Laurie: Uh oh, love

Jessica: and ex-husband call each other is husband in-law, and, but. My life didn't go as planned. And so I realized that there's so much power in just releasing that conditioning.

And the more we embrace that, the more love we get to have in our lives. And for me, love and boldness are my top two values. They have been my, I can see it as a thing my whole life. And so those are the two things that I wanted to feel the world with more of. I wanted to empower more women to say, Hey, this isn't working for me.

And to find their voice in how to do that in a way that feels good instead of just feels like one more thing that we have to do, that we have to be [00:29:00] perfect at, that we should be navigating. Like how do we teach people to do this with grace and ease and gentleness and releasing so many things along the way so that we have space to welcome it in.

And it's my coaching framework basically, of how I take women through decision making and owning that decision making. Because as coaches, we're helping people make decisions like that is ultimately what we do. And so it's taking them through that. And I just wanted a way to help and support and uplift as many women as possible.

And so that's kind of where. It is like, all right, this is it. Let's put this out into the world and see what happens.

Laurie: It's so interesting that you mention that the job of a coach is to help people with decision making. I was literally at dinner last night and a friend asked me, so what would you tell somebody to do in this situation? And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's, that's not what coaches do. Coaches create a, a framework [00:30:00] and, and ask the right questions to get you to move into action in, in a way that feels aligned.

That, but it's not about giving answers. And I think that there is a bit of a misconception about the coaching community, which is, oh, if I get this coach. I'll, she'll answer all of my problems. Just like if I go to therapy, she's gonna unpack all of this information for me, and all of a sudden it's gonna make sense, but it doesn't.

So it's lovely that you have published this book. In fact, um, depending on when this episode drops, it's either coming out today or tomorrow, so Fantastic there, but it's, it's great that you have bottled up your decision making framework, and it's in this book. So is is Shove Your Shoulds a bit of a how to guide?

Is it something that I could pick up and,

, And move myself through? Is there coaching that goes along with it? How, how do you, how do you see that working?

Jessica: Yeah, so there is a [00:31:00] lot you can do on your own. There's so much that when we are fed the questions we need to ask ourselves and the mindsets we need to kinda like tap into and think about. It's in the book. There's also a companion workbook you can pick up and there is, I call the Decision Lab. You can check into the Decision Lab and do six weeks of coaching.

Um. It's gonna be live one last time, right after the book releases. But then from there it is going to be automated for you. There will be a group that you can drop in when you need support, but want to make this attainable. And, um, for a lot of women financially, it's not something like, high ticket coaching isn't something like high touch coaching or one-to-one isn't something you can afford.

Like I sometimes am like, oh, that's not the right season for that, even when I want it. And so this gives people a way to come back to over and over again to be able to work themselves through some things. I always like [00:32:00] it when you're in a group. I always love it when you have accountability with other people.

People see blind spots, you can't see. Um, so ideally, this is a jumping off point to get you started in this process, to get that acknowledgement that like, oh, the recognition, the whatever that. Something doesn't feel right, like, and I, I know what it is. I just haven't wanted to admit that to myself because now I have to take action, or now I know, you know, there's all these scary fears that come along with that and we address some of those things.

So yeah, it's a jumping off point. It will definitely get you started in understanding yourself and what it is you want and how to start making decisions on that.

Laurie: What about timing? If, if a list. Is thinking, well, I don't really, I mean, I don't feel like I'm at a crossroads right now where I have a big decision coming up. Uh, should I wait to pick up the book until I'm in it or is it something that is good for anyone [00:33:00] to start reading now?

Jessica: I think about this as like training for a race or you just did a massive race

Laurie: I did. Yes.

Jessica: like you are prepping your decision making muscles to be able to make those big decisions with peace and safety and clarity as you navigate them. That is the one thing I had people coming up to me like when I was getting divorced, friends and family and, and just also random people that I had talked to during that time, they're like, how are you so at peace? Like, how are you so calm?

I had big emotions. I always wanna make sure people understand that, but there was a peace and clarity and safety that I knew that I felt deeply within me that allowed me to navigate that in ways that weren't normal. Like I, I always hate to say that, but it wasn't, it, the way I was able to do that wasn't really normal because I was so in tune with [00:34:00] who I was.

So even if you're not navigating a big transition or decision right now, fine tune that. Build the muscle so that when you hit that point, because it's going to come for all of us, we are going to have big decisions that have to be made no matter where we are at in life.

And so when we fine tune that muscle, then when that decision comes, when that that needs to be made or we need to take action, We're ready. We feel clear. We can hear what it is inside of us. We can move forward without the fear of failing or without the fear of doing it perfectly. But instead, we can say, this feels best.

I'm gonna try this works great. If I need to pivot, I can pivot. I have the information now I need to make that other decision. So I always tell women, no matter where you're at. Just pick it up, start learning about the decision making process so that you can learn it now.

And if you're in the big decision, we can build that muscle when you're in it. Like that's what I help most women with is when they're in [00:35:00] it. Um, but yeah, it'd be great if we started doing that beforehand, just like we're hoping younger generations will start, you know, leaving these things, leaving that conditioning behind, Younger and younger. There's power in whatever season you're at of doing that.

Laurie: I think you would agree with this idea as well, which is, one of the reasons to start now, like you talked about, building that decision-making muscle, it's, it is once you start with small, decisions that seem relatively insignificant, like where do you wanna go for dinner tonight? And a lot of women will always give their decision-making power away.

But if you take that back and just even practice in the small decision making, when it comes time to like, things are going to shit real fast and I've gotta make some big decisions now, at least you've, those muscles have been working, you've been in practice, you've been building them.

Jessica: You have built, built that confidence [00:36:00] in trusting yourself, your body and soul. Feel safe to trust yourself. And so they're like, okay, I've been doing this. I can do it. And it really does come down to those little decisions. You are a hundred percent right? Like what do I wanna eat? What do I wanna wear? What do I wanna do with my hair? They seem little and they're not.

Here's one more point that I wanna say. Women will tell me all the time, I'm such a good decision maker, like I make decisions so fast, which is great. There are people out there who are good, and also I wanna challenge 'em. Be like, are you good at making those decisions for you? Are you really good at knowing what other people expect of you? You can bust them out quickly because you know what's expected. You know what you should do, you know what they're expecting you to do, and so you live into that. You can do it quickly. I could do that all day. I know what people expect of me, and also I know what I expect of me and I know what I want and deserve. And so we wanna make sure we're clear on where we're coming from in that.

Laurie: I think too, if I'm, if I'm hearing you correctly, [00:37:00] that decision making is, we'll call it a muscle, but part of the decision making that needs to really be developed is intuition and trusting our gut because we have been so conditioned to give away that power. To question what it is we really think, what is it we really want?

Someone else knows better than we do, and that seems to me to be a very vital part of the decision making decision framework.

Jessica: Yeah. And that's what this ultimately takes you back to. I mean, that is what I teach, is how to be in tune with your gut. So you know, like, this is what it's telling me. Release that logic, release that judgment of it. Take action.

Laurie: , I cannot wait to read the book because it's not out yet, so I haven't had a chance to read it, but everything you are talking about completely resonates with me. It's, um, it's certainly, um topics that I discuss inside my coaching as well. I am always, I love other [00:38:00] frameworks. I love to always understand how other people are doing it, so I, I cannot wait

Jessica: It's always fun.

Laurie: hands on the book, which, like I said, dropping today or tomorrow depending on whenever this episode airs.

Anything else you want to share with us about the book launch or what you're working on, what you're excited about in this season of life?

Jessica: I mean, this is the excitement right now launching this book into the world, which no matter when, if it's released yet or not, you can go to shoveyourshoulds.com and pick that up. But also like being a mom of teenage girls just really has me lit up right now, like it is so. Fun and exciting, and so balance not balancing, I don't really believe there's balance, but you know, like navigating these two things side by side and integrating them has just been such a joy. So that's, that's the thing that's lighting me up right now.

Laurie: I love that. I should have asked you is, did you always think you were gonna [00:39:00] write a book? Is that something you wanted? No.

Jessica: Even when I started like my entrepreneurial journey and doing all of these things, like a book was never in the forefront. I love speaking. I love talking to people, but I've realized, okay, I can't always be present talking and speaking, so let's navigate this, get it into a book so that we can help as many people as possible.

Laurie: For those people like me who have always wanted to write a book and haven't yet, I'm, I'm working on it right now, What advice would you have for someone who wants to fulfill that dream that has been on their heart for a while?

Jessica: uh, do it. Start taking the action. Start laying it out. Don't let the little things get in the way. And also, I would highly recommend support. I have had people helping me write this. I have had, I went and did the audio recording and I did that in a, like at a studio because I know that's not my forte. And just getting [00:40:00] support, my parents have been amazing, like in ways that they've supported me through this.

And so I think be open to receiving that support because it really is a lot of work. Like to launch a book, to write it is a lot of work to edit it, like have the editing done and all of those things, and then to actually launch it into the world with purpose and intention and pride. It's a lot.

Laurie: I think that what you are talking about can be applied to anything. Women, high achieving women have a really tough time asking for help and support. And what's interesting is we are always so quick to offer it. Anybody who needs our help, we are there. How can I show up? Do you need food? What, what can I do? And we are so hesitant to accept that for ourselves.

Jessica: Yep.

Laurie: Jessica, we always end the School of Midlife podcast episodes with the same two questions. So I am curious if you could go [00:41:00] back, knowing everything you know now with all of the learnings you have, with all of the experiences you've experienced in your life, what advice would you give to your 20-year-old self?

Jessica: Oh, man, I, I get emotional thinking about this just because I'm so proud of what she did and how I, I mean, which is me. I think sometimes you have a hard time saying that, like, I am so proud of how I've navigated things. I've made plenty of mistakes. I have I'm sure hurt people along the way and whatever. But I'm also very proud of what I've accomplished and how I've been able to navigate life in a way that worked for me, and I'm proud of what I've built. So I just tell her, you've got this. Keep trusting. You're good.

Laurie: That, that is beautiful. And, and I'm sure she would look at, at where you are now and think, wow, we really did that. [00:42:00] Look at us. That's great. I, I'm sure that the pride would go both ways.

And then finally, what do you like most about being a midlife woman?

Jessica: I just love aging. I don't with like, naturally aging and embracing that. Like I love the shift in how I feel. I love the shifts in the opportunity that's here. The, I mean, the confidence, I think when you are on this journey with intention, which your audience is, is just so powerful that we get to be here doing this work. And it's not too late to impact other people and to keep moving forward. So, um, yeah, I like the confidence that comes and the, the peace of knowing, you know, we've come this far, we're going to keep going.

Laurie: Think that is the perfect spot to end on today. Thank you so much for being here [00:43:00] today, Jessica. I've really enjoyed this conversation. And for the listeners out there, there is a clickable link for you to pick up, Shove Your Shoulds in the show notes, so hopefully we can support you in your book launch and, uh, I hope it's just a massive success for you.

Jessica: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

 Thank you so much for listening to the School of Midlife podcast. It means so much to have you here each week. If you enjoyed this episode, could you do me the biggest favor and help us spread the word to other midlife women? There are a couple of easy ways for you to do that first. And most importantly, if you're not already following the show, would you please subscribe? That helps you because you'll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. Second, if you'd be so kind to leave us a five-star rating, that would be absolutely incredible. And finally, I personally read each and every one of your reviews. 

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