Bridging Divides and Nurturing Authentic Connections with Dr. Adam Dorsay - Overcoming Challenges and Building Resilience

In this episode of The Fully Mindful Podcast, host Melissa Chureau welcomes Dr. Adam Dorsay, a licensed psychologist, executive coach, and host of the award-winning podcast Super Psyched. Together, they explore the profound topics of connection, belonging, and how to find meaning in modern life. Adam shares insights from his bestselling book, Super Psyched: Unleash the Power of the Four Types of Connection and Live the Life You Love, and provides practical advice on overcoming loneliness, fostering deeper relationships, and living with purpose.

Adam also opens up about his personal journey with ADHD and dyslexia, how these experiences shaped his life, and why embracing vulnerability and authenticity have been central to his success. From navigating childhood challenges to becoming a sought-after speaker, psychologist, and resilience expert, Adam’s story is one of growth, perseverance, and the power of connection.

Melissa and Adam also dive into:

• The impact of technology and social media on relationships.
• The four types of connection and how to strengthen them.
• How reframing your mindset can bring meaning to your work and life.
• Practical steps to bridge divides and foster belonging in today’s polarized world.
• The importance of humor, storytelling, and finding joy in the little things (like quirky pet names!).

Whether you're seeking inspiration, tools for better connection, or simply a heartfelt conversation, this episode has something for everyone.

Highlights:

• [00:00] Adam’s reminder of our shared humanity amidst division.
• [03:18] Adam’s journey: ADHD, dyslexia, and becoming a psychologist.
• [16:23] The epidemic of loneliness and why connection matters.
• [28:49] The four types of connection: self, others, the world, and something greater.
• [36:37] How to find purpose and meaning, even in unexpected places.
• [44:04] Bridging divides and fostering connection in a polarized world.

About Dr. Adam Dorsay:
Dr. Adam Dorsay is a licensed psychologist and executive coach based in Silicon Valley. He works with high-achieving adults, including entrepreneurs, executives, and pro athletes, to cultivate resilience and purpose. Adam is the host of the award-winning Super Psyched podcast, has delivered two TEDx talks, and is the author of the bestselling book Super Psyched. He’s also a devoted dad, husband, and occasional improv enthusiast.

Where to Find Dr. Adam Dorsay:

• Website: DrAdamDorsay.com
• Podcast: Super Psyched (available on all major platforms)
• Book: Super Psyched on Amazon and Barnes & Noble

Share and Like:
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who would love this conversation. And don’t forget to check out Melissa’s upcoming Positive Intelligence (PQ) Program, starting February 25th, to help you reduce stress, strengthen your inner resilience, and unlock your true potential.

Connect with Melissa:

• Website:

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Transcript

Connecting Through Authenticity and Resilience

Adam Dorsay 0:00

One thing I would remind myself is that, regardless of how anybody voted, still people yeah, we are people. We are all people who know what it feels like to be brokenhearted. We are all people who knows what it feels to feel happy. We're all people who knows what perhaps the holiday season means and Thanksgiving. We're all just people and we've all probably had moments of loss, and what I would ask people to do is address them from their humanity.

Melissa Chureau 0:37

Welcome to the Fully Mindful Podcast. I'm your host, melissa. I designed this podcast for you. I'm so happy you're here. We are talking about what it means to live with more intention, creativity and authenticity, so we can make aligned connections. I'm a neurodivergent lawyer turned coach who found the healing power of breathwork and the powerful impact of mindfulness as we navigate this wild and beautiful ride of life. Here at the Fully Mindful, we dive deep with inspiring guests, share solo mini-sodes that are packed with tools you can apply immediately, and I mix it up a bit with tangents and sidebars where my friend and host of the New World Normal podcast, debbie Harrell, joins us for some down-to-earth, sometimes random but always meaningful conversations. If you're ready to breathe, reflect and grow, you're in the right place. Let's get Fully Mindful. Oh well, welcome to the Fully Mindful. This is Melissa, where we dive into how to live with more authenticity, creativity and connection.

Melissa Chureau 1:41

Today, I'm absolutely excited to be speaking with Dr Adam Dorsey, a licensed psychologist and executive coach based in Silicon Valley, where it's sunny. Adam works with high-achieving adults, I think professionals, executives, entrepreneurs, pro athletes. He helps them navigate the challenges of modern life with resilience and purpose. He helps them navigate the challenges of modern life with resilience and purpose. He's also the host of Super Psyched, an award-winning podcast that I've listened to and it has over 200 episodes. I think you're at something like 240. And he's given two TEDx talks one on men and emotions and another on friendship and adulthood.

Melissa Chureau 2:24

His latest book of the same name, super Psyched Unleash the Power of the Four Types of Connection and Live the Life you Love has quickly become a bestseller, and there's a good reason why. This book dives into the real power of human connection, and his work offers a fresh and compassionate perspective on finding connection, especially in a time when so many of us feel isolated or divided. He's a true expert in resilience. He's co-created an international program for Facebook's online safety team and has served as a resilience consultant to companies like DigitalOcean. He's provided keynotes and trainings to high-tech places, as well as other organizations, including Microsoft, linkedin and the California Psychological Association. He's also a devoted dad, a husband, a dog owner and, I think, a cat owner, because I see a cat over there.

Melissa Chureau 3:18

He's in the office today, and today we're going to dive into his personal journey, his insights on connection from his book and podcast and maybe exploring how we can cultivate some deeper relationships even in a world that, at least right now, feels a little divided. So, adam, welcome to the show.

Adam Dorsay 3:37

Oh my gosh, Melissa, I am stoked to be here.

Melissa Chureau 3:41

Yay, I'm so glad too, and yeah, I can see your cute little kitty back there in the windowsill and that just makes me happy. What's your kitty's name?

Adam Dorsay 3:51

That would be Miri, because she looks like a meerkat when she stands up.

Melissa Chureau 3:54

Miri, my dog is in the room, but you can't see him. His name is Cujo. He is not a big dog. You're up with Cujo?

Adam Dorsay 4:00

That is so hardcore.

Melissa Chureau 4:03

I know, I know he's a little, he's a pug mixed with Chihuahua and he's just all love. So yeah, of course his name is Cujo.

Adam Dorsay 4:11

What's so funny about that for me is I have the most cuddly, adorable, just docile dog, and sometimes just for laughs I'll say when somebody asks what's his name, I'll say, oh, it's Psycho or it's Killer or it's the something like that. But all I can tell you is yeah, I love comedy is generally doing things that are incongruous and surprising, and a pug named Cujo is just just fits the bill.

Melissa Chureau 4:38

It's perfect. Well, you've even done some improv, I gather from your book, right?

Adam Dorsay 4:45

I did two years of it Not far from your former home over in Fort Mason oh my gosh Under the tutelage of Sue Walden. It was amazing, as she described it the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

Melissa Chureau 4:54

That's crazy. I've always wanted to do it, but I've never had the courage. Maybe one day, maybe after this conversation you never know.

Adam Dorsay 5:00

I recommend it. Everyone's terrified, myself included, and you will soon see there is nothing to be scared about.

Melissa Chureau 5:07

Really.

Adam Dorsay 5:08

Everybody is in the same place. There might be one, you know, there might be one, kristen Wiig in the group, who I consider pretty much the best improvisational artist of all time, but outside of her, everybody else in the class will be pretty much on the same page.

Melissa Chureau 5:24

They're all going to be newbies like me and scared.

Adam Dorsay 5:28

They'll all be scared.

Melissa Chureau 5:30

Well, that's good. I mean, I know I did drama back when I was in Tamheim and loved it, but never got past my fear of audiences. But somehow, some way, I ended up as a lawyer and in front of juries. So you know, who knows, anything's possible.

Adam Dorsay 5:48

And think about it Theater and the courtroom, kind of the same thing.

Melissa Chureau 5:54

It's kind of the same thing, except there are some rules in the courtroom.

Melissa Chureau 5:57

I don't know about the theater.

Melissa Chureau 5:59

Anyway, we are definitely here to talk about you, and one of the things that I love about you and your work whether it's in your podcast or your book or your TEDx talks, which I have seen is how you relate to us personally and you seem to share very openly and personally about both your struggles and your strengths, and personally about both your struggles and your strengths and you have shared openly about your ADHD, your dyslexia and for me, that's one of the big things in my story is getting comfortable with and understanding my ADHD.

Melissa Chureau 6:37

Funny enough, I had a much easier time being open about my alcoholism than I did about my ADHD, and so I mean which I just think is crazy, but it's the truth and I still sometimes fall into that. So I'm wondering if you can start by telling us a little bit about your personal journey and how you got comfortable talking about these parts of yourselves and how you ended up where you are today as a bestselling author, a psychologist, a dad, somebody who is, by all intents and purposes, successful in his own life and helps other people to be more successful in theirs.

Adam Dorsay 7:17

Well, I'm going to go a little bit Quentin Tarantino in terms of my sequencing on this. I'm going to start with something a couple of years ago and then I'm going to childhood and I'm going to bring us back to the present. But a few years ago I worked under a training analyst, a psychoanalyst, classical style Don't reveal anything about yourself, no self-disclosure. And I remember, after I was licensed and I could make my own choices At some point I decided I will be far more helpful in this field if I judiciously, conscientiously disclose things, not overshare, but because my clients, I believe, who are going through anxiety, depression, adhd all of which I've experienced need to know that I've been there on some level and I haven't experienced all of which I've experienced need to know that I've been there on some level.

Overcoming ADHD and Finding Belonging

Adam Dorsay 8:05

And I haven't experienced all of the so-called DSM diagnoses that I work with, and I don't work with diagnoses. I work with people. In fact, I even decided they weren't clients and they were not patients. They are people who come to me. So then back to my childhood. As a child, I was a very spacey, dreamy, hans Christian Andersen-like child looking out the window at the squirrels. I tested well on these IQ tests, but performed horribly in class, and they were not sophisticated enough to know that this was inattentive ADHD or ADHD of the inattentive type. I wasn't swinging on chandeliers like some of the other kids with a hyperactive style that was me Okay, so you were swinging on the chandelier.

Melissa Chureau 8:50

You were full, but they called it minimal brain dysfunction. Exactly what the hell is that right?

Adam Dorsay 8:57

Exactly. And so I made it from the gifted intelligent class to the average class, to the below average class, all the way down to special education, kind of. If you remember, welcome Back, cotter. I was in the Sweat Hogs and these kids I mean the kids I was with did not, on average, fare very well. There were a couple of us who did OK and ended up going to college.

Adam Dorsay 9:26

So around fifth grade I knew I was hopeless. I had been basically marinating in this idea that the term that they used back then, the term we can't use today, was mentally retarded. All the children called me that. I believed myself to be that. I was driving with my father in sixth grade. I told him how difficult it was to be mentally retarded and he pulled the car off the highway just to the side of the freeway and said Adam, you are not mentally retarded again, sorry for this uncool term. That was the term back in the eighties and I said what are you talking about? I said no, you are actually smart. You are not failing. The school is failing you. It took me a moment.

Adam Dorsay 10:05

The good news is I ended up going to a small. My parents had the means, I had the privilege and the fortune of going to a small private school where the student to teacher ratio was favorable and I could get more attention, and I soon started learning that I could learn. But sadly, in terms of my own self-concept, it was really hard for me to free myself from the idea that I was stupid. Even today, all of these years later, when somebody says, wow, you're successful, like you just did, and calls off the things that I've done, there's a part of me that's still just kind of like almost in third person, shocked. Anywho, I go to high school. I do okay, but not well, let's just say. And it was the undiagnosed ADHD and the dyslexia that was really keeping me back.

Adam Dorsay 10:54

And then my first year or so in college, I was faring so poorly. In fact, after my first semester in college, I went into the most popular professor's office and said to him probably going to drop out. He said great idea. And he said I can't just drop out, I'm better than that. He said no, you're not. He said listen, come think about it and come see me on Monday if you want to continue this conversation. It's Friday. I got to go and so I thought about it over the weekend.

Adam Dorsay 11:20

I realized I hadn't read a single book in my life, not a real book, and I went into Dr Greenberger's office on Monday and said I figured out my problem I haven't read earlier at a book. I was wondering if I could propose to you that I read one book a week under your, under your watch, for a third of a credit, basically, and we talk about it for an hour a week. And he said, wow, that's the strangest proposal I've ever had. I'm in. And so we did that and I began to feel my brain go from the off position to the on position. I ended up living in japan for a number of years, learning the language intensely, going to graduate school, dropping out still not diagnosed, and at 27, the very first time, I was diagnosed with adhd. And you might relate to this, melissa.

Melissa Chureau 12:02

Yeah.

Adam Dorsay 12:03

The doctor prescribes me Ritalin 10 milligrams, a smallish dose. I go to the parking lot of what was then Long's Drugs. I'm sure you remember.

Melissa Chureau 12:12

Yes.

Adam Dorsay 12:13

And I take my Ritalin and I sit in the car because I want to. I don't want to drive, I'm a little scared. What's going to happen?

Melissa Chureau 12:18

Right.

Adam Dorsay 12:19

I look around me. After about 30 minutes I started thinking, oh, this is what a brain feels like, this is what a normal brain feels like. And for the next five years I put myself through my own, what I call self-imposed Navy SEALs training to executive function they didn't have that term back in the day to see if I could learn new skills and learn new habits, learn new organization, because I knew I wanted to be a husband and a father someday and I was kind of comporting myself like a child. So I couldn't continue like this. I didn't want my future wife, who was then unknown to me, although she actually was known to me, but I didn't really know she would be my wife.

Adam Dorsay 12:56

Anyway, long story short, very long story actually. Long story long. I most. I have, I would say, 98% of my ADHD under control. I'm able to be with clients. They would never know. Nobody in my life would ever know the improv as you, as we kind of talked about, helped the ADHD somewhat. So many of the other things I did as well my wife knows about. There are certain places where it shows up really amongst my adult friends. None of them would know and I'm glad I've come out and to your point. It can be even more taboo to do so than talking about alcoholism, depending on the audience.

Melissa Chureau 13:34

It can be. I know for me it was very difficult For me. I kind of came out about my ADHD as a long practicing lawyer and I couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting along with people at work. I don't know what's going on. And there were a lot of other things going on. There are certain expectations of women, especially in law, that we could have a whole other podcast series on let alone an episode. So that was going on. But then I also realized, like from my own point of view, I was just masking. I was masking who I was, because I was terrified that you would find out that I didn't know what I was doing. I had full blown imposterism due to my ADHD. And it wasn't until I kind of came out and learned more about my ADHD and got really serious about being open about it and talking about it with other people that it's suddenly I was free of it. And again, nobody had any idea I mean other than maybe my husband, because I have 40,000 books under the bed and by the way.

Adam Dorsay 14:37

That's by the way. That is. That is my symptom as well, things like that. Right, I mean, it's just stuff like that and I felt good to know that Barack Obama also has a tiny pile. In Michelle Obama's book she talks about the fact that Barack has a tiny pile next to his bed of stuff like that yeah.

Melissa Chureau 14:53

Yeah, we're in good company, it's not a bad thing. So, yeah, I do think it can be a superpower. Be a superpower, and that is not to diminish the difficulty that some people have and that I had growing up, or that you had growing up and thinking that we weren't as smart as we really are or had difficulty learning in the way that we were being taught. Right, like your father said, the school was failing you, not you weren't failing, the school was failing you, and that was the same for me. So I always want people to know that there's nothing wrong with thinking differently or being wired differently. It just can be more difficult in the society in which we live. And which also gets me to one of the superpowers that I have found with my ADHD, and maybe you have found with yours as well, is being and or seeing connections that a lot of other people don't see. And one of the things that I was very excited about with your book Super Psyched, is it's all about connections and it's all about belonging. And I know, as a child who had ADHD, I didn't feel like I belonged, I didn't feel like I had the playbook that everybody else clearly had, and often sometimes don't feel like I have the playbook, but know that that's not really accurate. It's just some sort of insecurity at the time that I will overcome. That said, I love that this is about belonging and I think that this is the thing of our time, right?

Melissa Chureau 16:23

One of the things that you talk about in your book, and I think that this is the thing of our time, right. One of the things that you talk about in your book Super Psyched, is the epidemic of, and pandemic of, loneliness, and how the Surgeon General has even talked about it as a public health crisis, which indeed it is, and how really awful it is and people are dying of loneliness, and how important it is to feel connected. And so I'm very excited that you wrote an entire book all about belonging and connection. But before we get to connection, we have to talk a little bit about what is getting in the way of connections. So can you help us understand a little bit about what some of these obstacles to connection are in, just in general, and then, especially in this day and age, where are we going wrong?

Adam Dorsay 17:54

I would say the biggest obstacles are two, and they both relate to technology. And, as you and I both know, technology can be used for good or for evil. A knife can be used to kill somebody or it can be used to save somebody. It depends on how it's used. So I'm not here lambasting technology, but around 2007, this little blue lighted thing that exists in most of our pockets called a smartphone came about. And I remember the very first time somebody talked about this thing called MySpace in my office. I remember the very first time somebody talked about this thing called MySpace in my office, I was thinking gosh, that sounds really dorky. I mean like that's not going to catch on. And lo and behold, it didn't. But Facebook did, and social media is the other.

Adam Dorsay 18:37

And what's happened is we believe on some level that the phone will provide us with connection. We're more connected than ever, after all, and yet we're less connected IRL in real life, than ever before. Yeah, and what will happen is, the human brain likes to go for what is easy rather than what is hard. It is easy for me to comment on my buddy Bob's amazing post. It is harder for me to drive 50 miles to meet with Bob at the halfway point in San Francisco because he lives up in Sebastopol. That takes a lot of activation energy. Which one am I going to do? Oh well, you know, I'm just going to hit the like and maybe even comment on. This is going to be witty and he's going to give me a thumbs up and we're connected. We're not. It gets even worse because we like what's easy. We're tired over the weekend, we're working harder than ever and work is just bleeding into every little space of our life, especially now that we've gone so digital as we have.

Adam Dorsay 19:39

Saturday rolls around. We're tired, we get out of bed, we brew some coffee, we turn on some Netflix to stream and possibly just what's the word I'm looking for Binge, watch our favorite series, and we're doing that while folding laundry and answering texts and emails and looking on social media and petting the dog and answering questions from our kids and maybe begrudgingly, from anybody else who comes into the room. And then Monday rolls around and we ask ourselves am I rejuvenated? Have I connected with the people who matter? Have I connected with the art that matters? Have I connected with myself? Have I connected with something greater and I'm not necessarily talking about religion, I mean, have I gone out into the woods and allow myself to just feel the beauty of trees or see the beauty of nature?

Adam Dorsay 20:26

So we are living these artificial lives that our brains, which haven't changed in at least 35,000 years, possibly as many as 100,000 years. But our surroundings have changed dramatically and with the advent of these technologies, our brains are just not ready for them. We haven't evolved enough to use them intelligently. Unfortunately, technology and social media uses us. We don't use it. We need to create a lot more, we need to consume a lot less and make sure and I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying allow yourself time limits For me.

Adam Dorsay 21:03

I use social media very briefly. I don't want to get caught doom scrolling, don't want to get caught down rabbit holes of interesting things on Reddit. It's not going to get me. What I'm looking for what will is a nice walk with my son, hanging out with my wife and being with the friends who matter, and maybe perhaps even cranking out if I with my wife listening, which I don't do often. Maybe perhaps even cranking out if I with my wife listening, which I don't do often enough, but cranking out, you know, a meditation session like these are going to work for me and everybody has different formulas for connection, so yours and mine are probably have a lot of overlap, but there's some places where you find connection for yourself that I would say wow that's really different than mine.

Adam Dorsay 21:43

My father likes a Wagnerian opera of six hours. I'd find it a very expensive place to sleep.

Melissa Chureau 21:49

Right, no kidding, yeah, I mean, we get lulled into this, right, we get that extra dopamine hit when somebody likes the comment that we, the witty comment that we posted.

Adam Dorsay 21:58

Oh, my God, yes, oh yeah, you know, we got that, I nailed that one.

Melissa Chureau 22:06

I nailed that one and we do take the easy way out. I remember thinking about getting rid of Facebook at one point and I thought, well, how am I going to communicate with all of these people? And then I thought, do I really want to communicate with all of these people? And I still don't really have an answer to that. I mean, on the one hand, yes, I've made some really great connections Some of my best friends I have made through social media, and then I have met them in real life and we have continued real friendships. But, on the other hand, so much damage has been done because I too, my husband and I were talking about that phenomenon that you were talking about, where we have found ourselves somehow watching Netflix, also doom scrolling, also purchasing something from Amazon at the same time.

Adam Dorsay 22:47

I forgot about that one. That's a big one.

Melissa Chureau 22:50

And like here's my rule Do not purchase anything on Amazon past seven o'clock at night. If you are purchasing something on Amazon at seven o'clock at night, do not need it.

Adam Dorsay 23:02

That's awesome. I have literally. That's awesome.

Melissa Chureau 23:04

I have literally Amazon packages have shown up and I have no idea what they are. This is what happens. So, anyway, that's my pitch for for for not purchasing on Amazon. But the point being is that what we're really craving, like you said, is that real connection with real people doing real things, and sometimes that takes real effort, but it is always worth it. It is always worth it. There's never been a time when you're gosh. I wish I didn't drive that 50 miles to go see Bob. I really had a horrible time when I went to go see him, right.

Adam Dorsay 23:40

I got to talk about that one I work with. The clients I see are extremely friendable, but the vast majority of them were born someplace outside of here. Right, they went to college somewhere away from home, they had an internship somewhere and then they went off to graduate school somewhere else and then they moved here and each time their friendship circle they had good intentions. We'll stay in touch, It'll be great. Except now they are friends with whoever their kids friends or the parents of those kids and they have nothing in common with them and they're trying to find a way to connect with them and they can't. And these incredible connections have gone by the wayside and sometimes they're too embarrassed to even try to exhume those relationships from those dusty crypts, if I can be so morbid, but to bring them back to life, resuscitate them.

Adam Dorsay 24:30

So when I go and visit Bob, it requires activation, energy on my part. It's Saturday morning, I'm tired, I'm like damn Bob, why do you have to live so far? I get in my car, I listen to something good and I try to get psyched and I'm thinking you know, it's going to be great. And then I get to San Francisco and the parking sucks and I'm a little bit annoyed. And then I get out of my car, go to Cafe Greco and there's Bob.

Melissa Chureau 24:55

Right.

Adam Dorsay 24:56

And it's like, and for the next four to five hours he and I are boom in sync. Like nothing before Greatest time and I've come to. It was thanks to Bob, actually, that I came up with a term called the drive away test. How do you feel when you drive away from an interaction? Do you feel taller? Wow, I felt really heard and that was amazing. I felt supported. Do you feel smaller, Like the person kept going back to themselves when you were talking?

Melissa Chureau 25:25

with them.

Adam Dorsay 25:26

It's like oh yeah, well, I've been there too. And then telling them about your trip to Japan, they hijack it and go for the next 20 minutes telling you about their trip to Japan five years ago, rather than your most recent trip, and it was. Is there a proper upload download process? Is there? Is it nice and reciprocal Right? And usually when that happens happens that gives way to a really good drive away and we aren't really taught those skills in school not anymore.

Melissa Chureau 25:54

No, that's for sure, and maybe we never were, but certainly not anymore I don't think we ever were, and they're so important.

Adam Dorsay 26:01

I know a lot of incredibly intellectually smart people who absolutely lack these seemingly fundamental skills, except they're so important. I know a lot of incredibly intellectually smart people who absolutely lack these seemingly fundamental skills, except they're clearly not fundamental because if they were, more of us would know them, I think. But then again, common sense is not common practice.

Melissa Chureau 26:14

So there are those pressures, like you said. I can't remember who said it, but I loved the way that they put it was in some author and he, his friend, had coined the term. Is that a real friend or a deal friend?

Adam Dorsay 26:29

Wow.

Melissa Chureau 26:30

I loved it because it was like is that a real friend or someone you're just friends with for convenience or for some opportunity? And even though we might very well like our kids, parents, kids friends, parents or whatever we might not necessarily be friends with them. And yet we sometimes give up other really key friendships to cultivate those other relationships that aren't really going to go anywhere after a certain period of time, and what we really should be focusing on is not being mean to those people. Of course, we should still have relationships with them, but we should really be spending our efforts on the relationships that are meaningful.

Discovering Purpose Through Connection

Melissa Chureau 27:08

So, yeah, hey, everyone, I'm excited to announce my eight week positive intelligence program, the PQ program, starting February 25, to reduce stress, break through barriers and tap into your true potential. With just one to two hours a week, you'll quiet inner saboteurs, strengthen your inner sage self and build lasting mental fitness through live meetings, daily exercises in the PQ app and powerful practices. Ready to transform? Set up a call with me today in the Calendly link in the show notes. We'll see you there. Me today in the Calendly link in the show notes. We'll see you there. So, all right, I meant to get to the defining part of your book which we are sort of getting to, which is connections, and you talk about the four types of connections and I guess can you talk a little bit about those four types of connections and if you have noticed, if there's any, that I don't know, the people that you work with, or perhaps yourself, or people that you know have more difficulty with than others, or what might come more easily to people than others?

Adam Dorsay 28:20

Sure.

Adam Dorsay 28:20

So before I even do that, I'm going to even go with the definition of connection, which takes two pages. But it's when you come alive and you can't fake it. I mean, melissa, when you and I met each other, it was an immediate loop. I would say, if I can be so bold as saying we both came alive. There was. It was not some dead sauerkraut just sitting on the table Right, it was. There was vitality there, yeah, and that's what I would say connection is. I had many other mental health practitioners assist me with the definition. But then I thought about connection.

Adam Dorsay 28:51

Most of the books relate to how we connect with a romantic partner, or perhaps how we connect with colleagues or clients, but very few, well, not very few. I've seen zero books that talk about the four ways we connect, which are we start with ourselves. If we don't connect well with ourselves, all other connections are impaired. Right, and it's not selfish, no-transcript. Far more pleasant to be around when we're well connected with who we are, when we've been making quota with the important things in our lives. It's not selfish. I mean it's selfish if it's overblown, but I'm talking about reasonable.

Adam Dorsay 29:29

So imagine four concentric circles rippling out, so connecting ourselves as the nucleus, then connecting to others. So right now I'm connecting with you, you are an other and I can connect with you kind of the way Martin Buber described like an I am thou connection, where we see the holiness, so to speak, not necessarily from a religious perspective but we treat each other with kindness and respect and decency, rather than I and it relationship where it's just basically a logistical relationship where I treat they just say go get me water Gross. I can't have any control, saying that it's just. But you see that sometimes waitstaff are treated that way.

Adam Dorsay 30:10

I end it versus I end now. So I others is the second circle. The third circle is the world, the world. And, by the way, others could include my cat, and, by the way, I'm a convert. I used to hate cats and I've learned more from cats than I can even count. In fact they even helped me with my ADHD in certain ways, but that's for another podcast. The others could include art, it could include travel, it could include nature and again, it's being to your point, it's being mindful about how we're connecting and really noticing what we connect with, not what we're told we should connect with. If I had grown up in the wrong family, my father might have said to me unless you enjoy a six hour Wagnerian opera, you are not a cultured individual. That would be a crappy thing to say. I could be cultured in other ways, certainly with the Beastie Boys and being able to recite their lyrics. I say half jokingly, but I think they're incredible artists.

Melissa Chureau 31:06

Yes, ok, I'm going to agree on that one.

Adam Dorsay 31:08

But the fourth circle is connecting with something greater. Something greater could be. It doesn't. It does not necessarily mean religion, although for many it does connecting with God and it's God's various descriptions, but it could be. Even for the most orthodox atheist, when they go to Yosemite and they are just in awe of the place, it could be recognizing that you and I, as a dyad, are far greater and stronger than I am alone. That could be something greater. I just watched the Los Angeles Dodgers beat the crap out of the Yankees. That was not done by one person, that was done by something greater. It was a team. So even a team could be considered something greater. So I really wanted the reader to know that their own formula was what should guide them. They shouldn't be told by anybody else what theirs ought to be. They'll know that they connect when they feel that vitality, that coming alive.

Adam Dorsay 32:13

My friend and colleague, britt Frank, who wrote a book called the Science of Unstuck, she said that for her she doesn't need to see a friend, but for once in a while, and she said that there are friends who are hummingbirds and there are friends who are scorpions, and not in the evil way of scorpions In terms of their feeding schedules. Hummingbirds need to eat every day, multiple times a day. I have a hummingbird feeder. I see them come by all the time. They're flapping their wings at 60 times per second. They've got ridiculous metabolisms, whereas scorpions don't need to eat very often. And she said she's more of an introvert and she needs to see her friends not that often and that will sustain her and there's nobody who should tell her she should be otherwise. Other people are more like if we could use, kind of like the TV show Friends. Joey Tribbiani was always in the scene and Ross was sometimes in the scene, and so I like to think of Joey as the hummingbird and Ross as maybe more of the scorpion.

Finding Purpose and Connection in Work

Melissa Chureau 33:11

More of the scorpion. I don't know what I am. I think it probably depends on on the particular friendship. I'm not sure I like that analogy, though, and think that everybody can be a little bit different. You know, in this podcast we explore a lot about how people find their purpose, and I do think that's connected to connection, right. It's when we feel most connected, right Then, when we feel in flow, when we feel really connected to another person or to nature, or to art or to another human being. So, for you, how would you suggest? Or how did you find your purpose and I know you have many purposes in this life, but how did you find yours, and how would you suggest might be one or two steps that people could take to try to find theirs?

Adam Dorsay 34:04

You know, my mom has had a lot of wisdom throughout her life. One of the things that she said is try various things. The more things you try, the more things you're able to do. And the more things you're able to do, the more opportunities you'll have in life. If you're able to roller skate, great, you can join that roller party. If you can't, it'll be a lot harder. If you can speak a foreign language, it will open up new doors. Go do that. And I'm grateful to her because some of the things really turned me on. Some of them were kind of like, eh, not all that interesting.

Adam Dorsay 34:31

I was a late bloomer intellectually, academically, vocationally. Due to this ADHD and dyslexia problem, I dropped out of my first round of graduate school thinking that there's no way I'm going to be able to get through this thing. Dissertation what are you talking about? I will never finish this. And then I ended up marrying a psychologist. I'm in sales. I was good at sales. I'd say I liked it, but it felt like I used. I didn't feel like I used my whole self, I felt like I used just a small percentage of who I was in the process and I really liked my clients and never sold them something they didn't need. I was an ethical sales rep and I did well at it.

Adam Dorsay 35:12

Well, every night dinner, she would describe her day and I would think to myself that was supposed to have been my day. And at one point, after reading Irv Yalom's book uh, the loves executioner. I was reading it on a beautiful beach in Hawaii and I thought this is the life I, this is the life I should have had, and my wife has it. I don't have it. I had been training for it since before I met my wife, but I abandoned it. And finally, after the coaxing of my friend Aaron, who said dude, your wife will have your back if you do this. And I was like, oh my God, but I've already got a house and a child and maybe another child on the way. There's no way I can do this.

Melissa Chureau 35:51

Right.

Adam Dorsay 35:52

And so I went to graduate school nights and weekends and tendered my resignation one Friday and went to work for $10 an hour with no benefits. Resignation one Friday and went to work for $10 an hour with no benefits while I was earning my $3,000 postdoc hours and it was 100% connection. I was the most excited person in group supervision. I was working with these rather young people who went straight through college and graduate school and they were just like gosh, what's this guy drinking? Why is he so stoked? He seems not talking about full person, but just kind of the enthusiasm of not the other attributes good and bad but I had that. I had that vibe. I'm like, yeah, we're. You know, this is amazing. My nickname in high school was enthusiasm, so it kind of if something really connects, it shows on my whole body and every Monday I go to work. I am just really happy to go to work. I love weekends but I love my work and so either way I'm pretty stoked.

Melissa Chureau 36:50

And I love that and I love in the book how you talk about that that if people don't have the fortune or the luxury of being able to jump into a new career of the one that they have isn't the one that is going to light them up that they can still find ways to find that excitement, that flow, that purpose in the job that they have, by understanding what it is that lights them up and then finding it there. Right, it still takes effort, right.

Adam Dorsay 37:18

Absolutely.

Melissa Chureau 37:19

And I think you gave an example of somebody who was in the restaurant business who just freaking hated her job for lots of probably really legitimate reasons Working in the service industry is really hard and then she understood what her values were and then she was able to reframe her entire job and have a completely different experience.

Adam Dorsay 37:39

Yeah, job and have a completely different experience. Yeah, the way it was conveyed to me was through a video I was watching of Martin Seligman of University of Pennsylvania, one of the fathers of positive psychology, and he was describing this woman. I believe she was fairly well-schooled, but she was a single mom and, given the childcare needs that she had, she could only she was relegated to basically being a food server and she hated it. Her four hour shifts felt like 20 hours and her tips sucked and her coworkers hated her. And then she took this VIA inventory. It's at viacharacterorg. You can take the free one or the paid one when you find out what your top 24 strengths are, or you find out where you rank relative to the 24 strengths and you can find out what your top five are.

Adam Dorsay 38:22

One of hers was an interpersonal intelligence and she realized what I need to do is get really curious and interested in the people who are buying their meals and really establish relationships, so to speak. I mean, even if they're only coming in once, really just, uh, enjoying them and enjoying my co-workers. And she did that at like a 10 out of 10. And when it came time for her to leave that job because she could. She was actually sad to leave the job.

Adam Dorsay 38:51

Her tips had gone up, her four hour shifts felt like an hour. I mean she was in flow and she really. She had her regulars and it was a good job. And it should be so that when we leave our current job for something better, if we leave sad a little sad I would say it's a good sign that we have left it all in the field and that we've had a good experience. I'd prefer to leave sad than to be just so grateful to be out of there, because that would mean that the time, the heartbeats I spent there were kind of great and hopefully the thing that we're going to is even more awesome.

Adam Dorsay 39:30

Right, right Exactly, but we can enjoy the job that we have and we can even ask ourselves you know I can't leave my job, but there might be an opportunity for me to learn something here. Maybe I'm working at a dot-com company. What if I saw that company as a dot edu experience, like a well-paid internship?

Melissa Chureau 39:50

like.

Adam Dorsay 39:51

I'm getting paid well. I don't love it. What is something I could learn more of while doing my job and getting a good review because I'm doing well for the company?

Melissa Chureau 39:59

Right and I add value to. I remember hearing a story about a woman and I think she worked in like a pharmaceutical company but basically she was just putting pills in bottles, right, and she was just putting pills in bottles, but they were really important pills. They were for cancer treatment, but they were really important pills. They were for cancer treatment. And she reframed her entire job to understand what was true, which was that she was helping people heal from cancer and that was how she saw her job, was how her job was really, really important. Now, a lot of other people might not have seen that, but she did, and it changed how she felt about herself and what she was adding to other people's lives.

Adam Dorsay 40:44

You know, one of the smartest people I've ever known is a guy named Michael Mead and he would have loved that story. And he would love that story. He said to me on when I interviewed him that we're not just homo sapiens, we're homo symbolicus. We are beings that derive meaning from a thing. And she chose the meaning. She kind of went with Viktor Frankl in a way. She said to herself I am doing something massive.

Adam Dorsay 41:07

And Amy Resnusky out of the Yale School of Management has found that certain hospital janitorial staffs, when they are given more reign in terms of what they do and are allowed to, basically, in addition to cleaning the hospital, which they have to do, what else are they martialized to do? And this particular janitorial staff did something called job crafting. And this is what this woman who was filling her pills was doing as well. She was crafting her job. This janitorial staff basically interacts with the patients and starts caring about them and somehow becomes deputized to see themselves as ambassadors of the hospital. That actually is what ended up happening when satisfaction surveys amongst employees at this hospital were given out. Those of the janitorial staff had higher rates of satisfaction than the physicians who were paid whatever X amount more than the janitors were, so it's pretty impressive what this can do.

Melissa Chureau 42:12

Yeah, it sounds like the physicians probably needed to do a little job crafting themselves.

Adam Dorsay 42:17

The medical field is rife with problems these days. They're told to see patients faster and offer less in terms of being productive. They're supposed to. Productivity is what it's all about now, and entering into the electronic medical record system the data and going out and going to another patient, and most physicians went in, at least in part, but perhaps mostly for the idea of helping people.

Melissa Chureau 42:44

Right.

Adam Dorsay 42:45

And so they actually become very discouraged. When, when the mandates of the organizations or the companies that buy the health care systems that have no interest in in health care but they have interest in profits, it becomes very sad.

Melissa Chureau 43:02

Yeah, and it leads to a lot of burnout, whereas the janitors that you were, the janitorial staff that you were talking about they were in a position where they could create this connection with the patients, which is what the physicians were craving themselves right A hundred percent.

Melissa Chureau 43:17

And then I'm sure the patients were, of course, benefiting from this, which is the whole point and one of the things that I did want to get to, which is we happen to be having this podcast interview post election. We're a week separated from their fellow Americans and not at all like the janitorial staff we were just talking about and the patients who were able to find that connection. So, in times like these, when people are maybe even feeling somewhat unsafe some folks are feeling unsafe to connect with others, especially when they're trying to forge, maybe, new connections how, what do we do? Like? What are some of the things that we can do for those of us who are in positions where we can feel safe to connect with others? What can we do to help those who don't feel safe to connect with others?

Melissa Chureau 44:23

How can we continue connecting with people? Because, in my view anyway, that's the only way that we're going to get out of this. We can't continue dividing. We've got to find a way forward. We've got to find a way to find some common ground and to connect with one another. So how, dr Dorsey? How do we do this?

Adam Dorsay 44:45

Yeah, and boy, if I only had the real, the answer that would work for everything. But one thing I would remind myself is that, regardless of how anybody voted, still people, we're people. Yeah, we are people. We are all people who know what it feels like to be brokenhearted. We are all people who knows what it feels to feel happy. We're all people who knows what perhaps the holiday season means and Thanksgiving. We're all just people and we've all probably had moments of loss, and what I would ask people to do is address them from their humanity and, if a person starts going down a particular political track, perhaps say you know what? I think we could do better than that.

Adam Dorsay 45:37

Why don't we just talk about what we share in common? That's how this country was created. People who signed the Declaration of Independence did not all possess the same opinions or philosophies, but they united because they knew that if they didn't band together, they would hang separately. And I think that notion is more relevant at this moment than ever before. In social media, we can see these terrible things that cause us to think of, to demonize one group or another, and the bottom line is we're all just trying to live and we're all certainly at some point going to die. That is an inevitability. So when we look at somebody, we can see that they are a fellow traveler on this planet and they're not just red or blue. They are brothers and sisters in this kind of mortal experience. And that's one of the places I would start and from there I would build up to.

Adam Dorsay 46:38

And so what are you into doing? What are the things that turn you on? And it might be that you're not into the same things, but you may be able to take vicarious pleasure in hearing that this person's really into beekeeping and that you're really into crossword puzzles and various other types of puzzles. Wow, we're not into the same thing, but look at the joy that we have. Oh, but we're both really into IPAs. Fantastic, let's go share an IPA. Oh wait, lo and behold, we're both fans of the same Well sumo fans. That's a surprise. Didn't expect to find a sumo fan in here. Let's talk about that. There's so many other ways that we can establish connection. Peter Ginsburg and Alito they couldn't have been more politically divided, but they were the best of friends. We can still do this.

Melissa Chureau 47:23

Right, no, I love that and I know kind of wrapping this up, but what I hear you saying is you know we can share our common humanity, our common stories and find that common connection with one another as just fellow human travelers on the same road, and I really appreciate that and I appreciate the time that we've gotten to spend here together. I could spend hours and hours and hours more talking with you and hope that you'll entertain coming on the show again.

Adam Dorsay 47:55

I'm already there.

Melissa Chureau 47:56

All right. Well, so that people can find you and all the great work that you're doing, tell us where they can find you and what you're most excited about that you want them to definitely find.

Adam Dorsay 48:07

Well, I've come to realize that my new love language is positive book reviews on Amazon. But and I love it when people buy my book it's available on Amazon, barnes and Noble Uh, it's, uh. So it's that one right there. And yes, it took 20 months and, uh, it was 20 months well spent. And they can find me at dradamdorsaycom. That is D R A D A M D O R S A Y dot com, and I hope you'll buy the book, hope you listen to my podcast. I hope that you'll let me know what you think about either of them and Melissa, thank you so much for this really fun conversation.

Melissa Chureau 48:48

Yeah, adam, that was really great and can't wait to have you on again, and maybe next time you can have your dog make a special appearance, since I would love my cat.

Adam Dorsay 48:59

My cat is your cat today yes.

Melissa Chureau 49:02

Next time the dog. Well, thank you.

Adam Dorsay 49:05

Next time, rafi, all right, nice, to so great, to so great to meet you, you too.

Melissa Chureau 49:11

Thank you for joining me on the Fully Mindful podcast. If you got value from this episode, I'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review or share this episode with someone who loved this content too. Remember, small moments of mindfulness can lead to big changes in your day-to-day life. Until next time, take a deep breath, stay present and tap into your own mindfulness. I'll see you next week.