The Examined Life
The Examined Life podcast explores the questions we should be asking ourselves with a range of leading thinkers. Each episode features a different interview, and appeals to those interested in wisdom, personal development, and what it might mean to live a good life. Topics vary from discussing the role of dopamine mining and status anxiety, to exploring the science of awe and attention.
The Examined Life
Katharine Birbalsingh - Why are we ignoring our future?
What shapes our children's future? Who are they becoming? And why aren't we talking about it more? Katharine Birbalsingh, known as "Britain's strictest headteacher," has a clear vision for the role of school's in shaping the future of Britain.
"Children are the future and families and schools influence who they will become, and we seem to care about neither," she observes with passion that's impossible to ignore. While politicians debate net-zero targets and immigration policies, Katharine argues we're missing something far more urgent – the values being instilled in children today will determine tomorrow's cultural landscape.
At her Michaela Free School in London, Katharine has pioneered an approach that prioritizes character formation alongside academic excellence. She rejects the increasingly popular notion that teaching children boundaries somehow restricts their freedom. Instead, she offers a compelling alternative: structure actually enables maturity and growth. When children understand the difference between right and wrong, they develop the internal resources to resist harmful influences and make positive contributions to society.
This conversation takes us into questions of belonging, personal responsibility, and moral formation. Katharine articulates a vision of education rarely heard in mainstream discourse – one where schools aren't merely credential factories but communities that shape virtuous human beings. She insists that what matters most isn't test scores but "who they are as people." This isn't empty rhetoric – it's the foundation of her educational philosophy. By cultivating virtues through daily habits, children develop the character that naturally leads to success in all areas of life.
Katharine's perspective seems quite distinct from those espoused in episodes 1 and 3 of this series - which share similar concerns. Where do you stand? Join the conversation on Substack - Positively Maladjusted | kenneth primrose | Substack, or on the youtube channel (1) Examined Life Podcast - YouTube
So this idea that somehow it's wrong or oppressive to teach children how to behave, or somehow we're taking away their agency by teaching them the difference between right and wrong, this is a good thing. I don't see how this is a bad thing. This is good. It's good to teach children kindness and decency and it's good that they can then apply that kindness and decency to making the world into a better place. And so when they see harm happening to another vulnerable person outside of school when they're older, they will then step in because they've had practice of doing the right thing while they were in school. If they don't ever have that practice because we say take away everything, no structures, just do whatever you want, If I'd done that in the yard we'd have to keep that autistic boy inside because he would not be able to jump up and down on that spot.
Kenny Primrose:Hello and welcome to another episode of the Examined Life me Kenny Primrose. On this podcast, I speak to leading thinkers about the questions that drive them and preoccupy them, the ideas that they return to again and again. Last week, I spoke to the psychologist, peter Gray, about the conditions necessary for healthy childhood development. A few weeks before that, I explored what's gone wrong with the way we raise our children with Michaeline Ducliffe. Both conversations touched on a vital point Children need freedom and autonomy to mature, and that's something increasingly scarce in modern Western society. Today we're staying with the theme of how to raise children, but from a very different perspective.
Kenny Primrose:My guest Katharing Birbalsingh is , widely known as the strictest headteacher in Britain. Over the past decade, she has become a prominent and, at times, polarising voice in education, regularly featured in the media for her forthright views on ideology, discipline and schooling. In 2014, she founded the Michaela Free School in London, a school that's as famous for its strict ethos as it is for its remarkable academic results. Whether or not you agree with Katharine, there's no denying her influence and the clarity with which she articulates her vision for education. In our conversation, we discuss the deeper purpose of schooling, why she believes certain ideological movements, disempower young people and what she thinks we often misunderstand about children and schools. I was fascinated to explore the question that drives her work and grateful too that, despite her no-nonsense reputation, she was gracious when my internet failed and we had to reschedule.
Kenny Primrose:I hope you find this conversation as thought-provoking as I did. As always, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the issues it raises. I will hand over now to Catherine Purglesingh. Catherine, it's a real privilege to be speaking to you. You've been on my radar for a long time as an educator, but also you're in the national press quite a lot, and I'm fascinated to explore in a bit more depth like the things that have driven you. And so, as I think I explained, the theme of the podcast is to explore a question that an influential thinker such as yourself believes we should be asking ourselves. So I wonder if we can begin with that.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Yeah. So the big thing that I think we are missing is the fact that children are the future and families and schools are what influence our children to become who they will become, and so we should care about both, and we seem to care about neither. I spend my life constantly going on about children and schools and the impact schools have and no one cares, and I find it amazing. They're talking about net zero and they're talking about immigration and they're talking about tariffs and I don't know whatever else, and I just think to myself that's all well and good, but do you understand that what children are being taught now by both their parents and their teachers will tell us what the debates will be in five years' time, because they will be adults, and I just I don't understand why no one seems to care about children. They really don't.
Katharine Birbalsingh:This conversation around technology, for instance, the total disregard to the damage that technology is doing to children, both in the classroom and at home, to children both in the classroom and at home, I just I despair, quite frankly. But you say, about what keeps me going? It's all the thousands, tens of thousands of children, perhaps hundreds of thousands of children that I have known in my lifetime, I just there's nothing better than children. They're innocent and fun and cheeky and they're just great. And I believe in our duty that we have as adults, both as teachers and as parents, to do what's right by children. And that's how I live my life by trying to do right by kids.
Kenny Primrose:So you mentioned a lot in there that I'd love to dig into. But where did this passion, this sense of duty come from? How did it grow in you?
Katharine Birbalsingh:Yeah, I don't know. I became a teacher and I was always saddened by I've always been in the inner city and I was always saddened by the lack of success and progress that children were making in the inner city and these were typically black kids in the inner city just not achieving anywhere near as much as they could. And I was always bothered by the fact that it wasn't as straightforward as just being able to find the bad guy, say this is the bad guy, let's slay the bad guy and then we'll make it okay. It's just so much more complex than that, and so I've spent my life trying to make it better for these kids, and I think I have.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Actually, I think in many ways, michaela has had huge impact across education in the country and has normalized certain things that before were quite exceptional Things like lineups and silent corridors and knowledge organizers and standing at the front leading the classroom and desks in rows. Now, when I say normalized, there's lots of schools that don't necessarily do those things, but it's become part of the normal conversation. People don't think it as being weird, whereas when we first started these sorts of things, there were maybe there was a handful of schools in the country doing it and we have. We've popularized it and made it in a way, acceptable for it to just be normal now. So I'm very proud of being part of the revolution that has taken place in the country, I think, around education, a revolution that, sadly, is going to now come to an end with the current government, but it will live on, I think, despite changes that will be made with policy, because there are lots of people who have changed their minds thanks to not just the work that we do, but the work that other schools have done and that other individuals have done in their schools, in their classrooms, and so we've just got to fight on, because, I don't know, you pick something in life to dedicate your life to a struggle, as it were, influence on the education of children across the country and, indeed, frankly, the world.
Katharine Birbalsingh:We get visitors 800 to 1,000 visitors here every year at Michaela and they come and take ideas and take them back to their countries and to their classrooms and so on. I feel I have a responsibility to pass on the good ideas and to help people. Every day I speak to the guests who come and give advice to people on how to improve their schools, because I want to be able, at 95, to look back and say I contributed somehow to making the world a better place. And I chose, for good or for bad. When I was young, I chose to go into teaching and that's where I ended up. I could have ended up somewhere else, to be honest, but I love kids and then I ended up teaching and this is my world, and so that's what I know and that's how I contribute.
Kenny Primrose:Wonderful, this passion for the way that kids are formed at home and at school, and they're as you say, they're going to inherit and then shape the future. Now, the type of formation that you're interested in doing isn't the same as lots of other people. You've got a particular set of ideas and ideals around that. So what kind of human beings are you trying to shape at Michaela?
Katharine Birbalsingh:Yeah, it's a really good question and people don't often ask it. They just assume that the school is all about social mobility, getting the kids great GCSE grades and then sending them off to the best universities. And yes, we do want them to get good grades at GCSE and to go off to the best places they can go. I have to say we don't want them all to go to the best universities. I'd like the kids who can get to the best universities to go there, but I also want our kids to be great hairdressers and great plumbers, and kids who shouldn't be going to university shouldn't go to university. They should do a variety of other things and they should do it well. And that really then just taps into the idea of what kinds of people are we trying to create here. We want our children to be honest and decent and polite and grateful and kind, have a sense of duty towards others, being the kind of adult that I would respect. And that doesn't mean that they're going to go off and getting a good job ever. Not in 10 years have we ever done an assembly on getting a good job. Our assemblies are about who you are as a person and when we talk about developing the whole child here. That's because that's what we're doing, and I think too often we as a population in the country view schools as a place to go so you can get some GCSEs, so you can get a good job.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Then what's the point of learning Shakespeare? Is Shakespeare going to make you into a great construction worker? I don't think so. Why do we read Shakespeare? To connect with what it is to be human and to see the depth and meaning in life. That's why you read Shakespeare, not so you can get a job as a doctor or as a lawyer or as a shop assistant. It doesn't really matter what you go into. The reason why you choose a particular job is so that you find something you enjoy, that will give you purpose, that it gives you something to then develop as a person and contribute to society, and that, frankly, could be in any direction. Really, I don't know. Some of our kids will become dentists, Some of them will become real revolutionaries. I don't care.
Katharine Birbalsingh:My job is to enable them to develop the skills and the knowledge and the values, the virtues that are needed to lead a meaningful life, and I think that's what we should be doing in schools and what we should be doing at home. They're parents, and I don't think anybody is doing this anymore, or at least very few people are doing it. So when I talk about it it's hard to make people understand because it's so foreign to them, Because what we tend to talk about nowadays is a me culture. How do I get what I want? How do I find a job that fulfills me? How do I get the flat and the car and the girlfriend or the boyfriend or whatever that is going to make me feel like I've fulfilled my ambitions?
Katharine Birbalsingh:As opposed to what are you doing for other people? In what way are you serving others so that you can contribute to the world being a better place? And that's very much. I've tried to live my life in such a way that I'm contributing, and sometimes that comes at a very heavy price. That's what makes life worth living, I'd say.
Kenny Primrose:Yeah, fascinating. You've got a massive emphasis on belonging at Michaela, haven't you Belonging nationally? You've got a very diverse group of students and belonging to the school. Is this something you think is particularly important at this moment, and where did the belief that belonging was going to be central to a good education come from in you?
Katharine Birbalsingh:belonging was going to be central to a good education. Come from in you. Yeah, that's less about a good education, although I would say it ends up being part of a good education. I would say the reason why I want our children to be grateful and not entitled, the reason why I want our children to be kind and not mean, the reason why I want them to feel a sense of belonging and not either living in a solipsistic world where they're just looking inwards all the time or feeling like they're ostracized for some reason from the group. I want all those things to them because really I want them to be happy. I want them to be able to go through life feeling content and as if they belong in a way, belong to the world. You know the thing about virtue, the thing about knowledge is that it allows you not to be at odds with yourself, it allows you to flourish. And so you just said you belong to your country, you belong to your community, you belong to your family, you belong to the school, you belong to your year group, you belong to your form group, and there are all these kind of gradations down to a much smaller entity.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Now we are group animals as people. So, like when you remove a child from a class, that's a punishment, isn't it? You're pulling him out because he's been naughty. Now, ultimately, you think what's the punishment? You pull him out of class and then he goes back to another class. What do we care? The reason he cares is because he doesn't like being away from the group, because we like to belong to something. That's how we feel happy.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Okay, we feel unhappy when we are removed from the group. So that's what we use to say to punish children sometimes, and that's why, when we reject our country, we are making the entire country of people feel unhappy. We don't belong to it anymore and we want to belong to something. It not only does belonging to the country make us happy. It gives us a set of values and beliefs that we can all share, and it's through belonging to our country that you can then have a multicultural society where you have people of different religions and people of different races and different classes, where we can all live together in harmony, because we live underneath this umbrella of Britishness, which we all buy into and makes us similar to one another, because if we're all completely different, then we'll just have chaos, just like in a school. So we need the values of Michaela, the umbrella of Michaelaela, to have everybody fit under. And therefore you have Muslim kids, hindu kids, sikh kids, jewish kids, you've got black, brown, white, chinese, everything is here right. So we've got everything, but we're all part of the. We're under the same umbrella of Michaela values and if you don't have that umbrella, then you will have chaos and you will have disharmony. The way you get harmony is by having that umbrella. It's the same thing with the entire country. We all need to be British together. Now, if we reject Britishness, then we reject what is required for multiculturalism to succeed, in my opinion. And if we reject, if you don't have a school blazer, if you don't have a school uniform which brings you all together so you all know you're part of the same team, then you're not a team.
Katharine Birbalsingh:We always say to the kids when you get a detention, you're not just letting yourself down, you're letting the whole form group down, you're letting your form tutor down, you're letting your head of year down. And if you have relationships with those people, then there is motivation not to let them down. They're not just not children, don't just do the right thing because they fear a detention. Okay, so you do have some of those kids and they really are right at the bottom and you're trying to instill in them some relationships with their teachers and a sense of right and wrong, so that they don't just do it because they don't just do the right thing, because they think they're going to get into trouble, because they have trust with their teachers, they want to impress their teachers. They understand that their future itself depends on what they do.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Now. You want them to have all of that understanding, to develop a sense of right and wrong which is just inside them. That can only be done if you're doing it under an umbrella of the school, the family, where we all believe the same things, and 50 years ago the values of the family matched what the values were in the school. Nowadays, there is total chaos when it comes to values. Nobody knows what they should be thinking about anything. And not only that. Actually, we really celebrate the diversity of values. We say, oh no, everybody should just do whatever they want. No, they shouldn't do whatever they want. We need to agree on a set of values that we can all share, otherwise we're all going to hate each other.
Kenny Primrose:Is there a way that you try and balance some sense of individuality where people don't feel like they're having to give up themselves, along with conformity to ensure that people are belonging, or does individuality just not get a look in at? An institutional level.
Katharine Birbalsingh:So I think of course you couldn't be an individual. So I'm very much an individual. I don't think anybody would say that I wasn't right. I'm very much an individual. I think if you had to describe me to somebody and say, oh, there's this head teacher in Wembley, let me tell you about her, you'd be able to describe me in a way that was pretty unique. But I do buy into the values of the country. It is not the case that in the 1950s, where everybody did buy into the values of the country, then that we didn't have individuals in Britain. Of course we did. We had individuals. They just agreed on the differences between right and wrong, and I don't see that as a problem. Why wouldn't we want everybody to agree? Do we really have a better society if some people think murder is okay? I don't think so. I think it's good that we all think murder is wrong, but you also would like to create questioning citizens.
Kenny Primrose:presumably. So you've said, I think, to Jordan Peterson kids need to be told what to think, not how to think. How do they go from that transition of imbibing the values of the institution, the culture, and then becoming potentially critical about them when necessary, like Hannah Arendt, obviously, writing after World War IIi talks about? The disaster is when you have unthinking citizens who just follow the cultural values of the time when they're destructive okay.
Katharine Birbalsingh:So you see, I'd say you've got it the wrong way around with that question. In your thinking, the thing that makes you questioning is not having any kind of structured fundamental beliefs. It's just being open to anything and that means you can question. I would say that's precisely when you cannot question because you have nothing to question with. You have fundamental beliefs that tell you no, that's wrong. So I'm going to speak out now because I think that's wrong.
Katharine Birbalsingh:If you have never been taught the difference between right and wrong, then you have no idea what's out there and actually it makes you a bit of a fool. You're just, you'll be easily led, and which is exactly what I'd say is happening right now. Because people haven't been taught the difference between right and wrong, because they haven't been taught their history, because they don't really know much about the world, they just end up being led by TikTok. Whatever influencer is talking to them at that time, they get led by that person. It's only by teaching children a common set of values that then allows them to go out there and say you know what, mr Influencer, I don't think you're right. You know what, andrew Tate, I don't like all of this, the way in which you're talking about women, because I've been taught, I've given a sense of the way in which I should treat women as a boy, and actually it doesn't fit with what you're doing. So I'm going to use my sense of right and wrong of how to treat women now to criticize Andrew Tate.
Katharine Birbalsingh:But if I have nothing as a young man, because I haven't been taught anything at school, because there's chaos in the classrooms, because we don't know what our values are as a society, I end up just following Andrew Tate because he looks like a strong man and that's quite appealing and so I just end up following that. That's what happens, what we always think. People say to me what do you say about Andrew Tate? And I say we need to teach children what to think. I'm not saying to them here's Andrew Tate, think whatever you like. Of course I'm not thinking, saying that I'm teaching them a bedrock of values which would mean if they do come across Andrew Tate, they would instinctively know that what Andrew T? Does that make sense? It?
Kenny Primrose:makes good sense. Yeah, yeah, I'm totally in agreement, actually, but I wonder what others would say who come from so. You'll have fairly woke ideology in some schools and they will think these are our values. This is right and wrong. This is your yardstick for judging and rotate with. You happen to disagree with those values. How do you keep everyone in the same room?
Katharine Birbalsingh:That's a really good question. It's a really good question. That's a really good question. It's a really good question and it's what we've lost as a country.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Really, we haven't got the harmony and the consistency of those values and unfortunately it means, I think, that children are being taught the wrong values, and I would say a woke understanding of the world is to teach children the wrong values. So what would I take that to mean? Teaching children like mine, for instance, that they're victims, that the problem is on the outside, that it's racism, it's sexism, it's you being denied your rights by X, y, z, as opposed to looking inward and thinking well, what can I do to better myself so that I can contribute to the world? That's what you should be interested in as a human being, and I'm not saying that means that racism doesn't exist and that there aren't various obstacles that you're going to have to jump over. Sometimes they're unfair obstacles. I get that Life is unfair, but what you should be interested in is in what way am I promoting unfairness? In what way am I making the world a worse place? What can I do to make sure that I achieve and to make sure that I am worthy of the life that I have got so that I can contribute to society. That is what I want our children to understand, as opposed to looking for ways to make excuses for our own poor behavior. I'm not saying as I say. I stress again that there's no such thing as oppression in various different guises, whether it's racism or sexuality, or the accent that you have or any number of things. I recognize all of that accent that you have or any number of things. I recognize all of that. But to live a life that's worthwhile, you need to know that there are obstacles, true, but you need to know that your biggest obstacles will be the way in which you prevent yourself from succeeding.
Katharine Birbalsingh:My assembly this morning, this is my assembly this morning, and I have this little video here of this street performer who is. He's got this little green monster here and the green monster is he's. He's got this coat on, he's actually just his hand, but he looks like an additional little guy sitting on him. And every time the main, the performer, tries to put on a hat, tries to move, that his green monster friend keeps hitting him and stopping him from doing all the things that he wants to do. And then I said look, the thing is, we all have that monster inside us. We want to do our homework when we get home, but the monster says go and play some video games. And the monster's constantly trying to undermine you and stop you from doing what's right. And what we've got to do is find a way to overcome that monster.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Now, yes, there are big things in the world like earthquakes and racism and so on. Before I get to fixing the earthquakes, I'd like to be able to get over that monster and get home and do my homework right away. So I turn up tomorrow morning with an excellent piece of homework where I did not procrastinate. They're these small wins that we want for our children, that we want for ourselves. I procrastinate, of course I do. In fact, that assembly that I prepared, I did it at 10 pm last night because I procrastinated throughout the week, weekend, right, and then eventually I got to it and I thought, oh, my goodness, it's 10 o'clock, I've got to get this done.
Katharine Birbalsingh:We all do. We all have a monster inside us and we need to teach the children how to master that monster and how to master our, to own our development and to become the kinds of people who can then drive the car who can move forward and have impact on the world. Then drive the car who can move forward and have impact on the world. And I don't think we do that when we are constantly concentrating on the stuff that's out there. That's going to stop us from succeeding. We need to look inwards and think what stuff's in here that's going to stop us from succeeding.
Kenny Primrose:So super significant aspect of the formation in Michaela is on personal responsibility, on not being a victim, and so what makes some values good, as far as I'm understanding you, is that they allow you to fulfill your potential, contribute to making the world a better place and not complain or submit to the external circumstances. I have a question on the back of that and this kind of shades into the broader discussion on the mental health crisis right now, which I'm sure you've got some opinions on. So previously in this series I've spoken to the psychologist Peter Gray. He's been fairly influential on Jonathan Haidt, especially the stuff on play.
Kenny Primrose:He'd say that school days got longer, they got more intense, recess lunch got shorter and there was far too much supervision and children didn't learn an internal locus of control because they were always just complying with what adults were telling them to do. And then you have these very fragile vessels. They don't feel like they've got any agency in the world because they're just being told what to do, what to follow. I wonder what your response would be to to that point. Like if you're telling kids what to think and this is good and so on, and they're not getting ownership of it because of the recipients, then do you see that as a hazard, as a danger?
Katharine Birbalsingh:yeah. So it's interesting. I love jonathan hyatt and always have right from his book the Righteous Mind, which sort of explains the conservative mindset to a liberal, right through to Coddling of the American Mind and now is the anxious generation. I'm a big fan. I think he's probing at something there which he's got something. There's something good there. He's got something. There's something good there, but I think he's got it a little bit wrong.
Katharine Birbalsingh:I think that those children he's talking about have not been told what to do by their parents at all. In fact they've been abandoned to screens, which of course he talks about. How kids are just on screens all the time, and that kids come home and are then just left to wander on TikTok and that this, the screen world which just brings everything to you, is the thing that takes away their agency. They don't understand what it is to own something and to have agency over it and take personal responsibility, because they're just on those screens and the screens do it for you. You will remember a moment ago when I was talking all about children having agency and personal responsibility and owning their own development right. So I would agree with Gray and Haidt in that sense that children need the opportunities given to them to do exactly that take personal responsibility. But that doesn't mean that you just leave them in chaos. So again, I would come back to when you were saying, yes, but to learn anything doesn't mean that you just leave them in chaos. So again, I would come back to when you were saying, yes, but to learn anything, doesn't that just mean that you need to just leave them to it. You need to give them structure. But within that structure they then make decisions. So I do my assembly, control the monster, go home tonight, do your homework. I guarantee you there will be some kids who will go home tonight after the assembly and they won't do their homework. There'll be other kids who start it right away, and there'll be other kids who procrastinate and do it at the end. There'll be other kids who listen to me and will go home and do it when they get home at four o'clock, and then I'll do another assembly in six weeks time, and then there'll do another assembly in six weeks time, and then there'll be more kids perhaps who decide to take my advice, et cetera. They are deciding what to do with the advice that they are getting. So within a controlled environment, which children have always grown up in you and this is where Height and I see I've never spoken to him directly about this and I would really like to he talks about.
Katharine Birbalsingh:He and I grew up at the same time. We grew up in the time when you could cycle to the corner shop. You leave your bike, you don't tie it up, you go in, you come out. I remember I grew up in Toronto. We used to leave the house door open when I was really little. We never even locked the door. It was fine.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Now, the thing is, in those days you could depend on other people around not to lock the door. Now at some point we then got burgled and then we decided we better start locking the door Now. It would be absurd for any of us to leave the house now and not lock the door. I don't think Haidt would say don't lock the door every day, everybody, because then that allows the children to be more free. Now he does look back nostalgically at this time when we rode our bikes and we could just do what we wanted. I also don't think he would say children should ride their bikes to the shop and leave them untied, unlocked, outside the shop.
Katharine Birbalsingh:I don't think he would suggest that he is tapping into some of that helicopter parenting, which I think is more of a middle class thing. I have to say so. I don't come across it so much because my kids are from the inner city, where they're watching everything that their children are doing all the time. I often think to myself if only the parents would watch their children more, because you see them out at 11 o'clock at night just wandering the streets and you're thinking what the hell? Where are their parents? Obviously, I stress, that's not all of our parents. You see some of the kids. It is true that there is a middle class worry and anxiety around kids where they won't let them do anything and go anywhere and so on. But when you do let them go somewhere and I agree with Haif, we need to get those middle class parents not to do that and we need to get them out and about. But when you do get them out and about, you might give them a brick phone and say here's the brick phone so you can call me if you have any issues, because in the day if you had issues you could have found a call box to call. There's no more call boxes, so you have to bring the fence in to allow them to succeed, but at the same time you need to allow them some freedom. So that's what I would say.
Katharine Birbalsingh:We are very much doing at Michaela, for instance, when guests come to visit. So teachers come to visit from other schools and they see our children playing basketball outside. Because at lunchtime our kids are playing basketball and football. Because at lunchtime our kids are playing basketball and football table football and they play various things ping pong and so on and then they chat to their friends and they do whatever it is they want to do. And the teachers come and they say it's just amazing the way your children play basketball. It's so ordered and so nice and they're so friendly to each other. And at our school we have to confiscate the basketball all the time because they get really rough and mean with each other, whereas the kids here don't do that. Now, of course, that has required a certain amount of teaching. We've had to teach them how to play basketball. Professionally is what we say, and what that means is they can then just do it and they can have a nice time and they can make their decisions.
Katharine Birbalsingh:One of the joys of my life is, at lunchtime to look outside my window here and we have one of our boys who's very autistic and he jumps in one spot his whole lunch hour. He just jumps and he loves. That's what he loves doing. And the thing I love watching is all the other children around him. They're playing basketball all around him and they just walk around him and they just they play basketball somehow around him. He's not bullied, he's perfectly happy and that's because we've taught the children how to behave here.
Katharine Birbalsingh:So this idea that somehow it's wrong or oppressive to teach children how to behave, or somehow we're taking away their agency by teaching them the difference between right and wrong, pushing over the autistic kid is wrong.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Being kind and actually to move in such a way that your basketball game isn't exactly as you would have wanted it, but you sacrifice in that moment to allow that autistic boy the thrill of jumping up and down in that one spot that he loves, it's a good thing. I don't see how this is a good. It's good to teach children kindness and decency and it's good that they can then apply that kindness and decency to making the world into a better place. And so when they see harm happening to another vulnerable person outside of school. When they're older, they will then step in because they've had practice of doing the right thing while they were in school. If they don't ever have that practice, we say take away everything. No structures, just do whatever you want. If I'd done that in the yard, we'd have to keep that autistic boy inside because he would not be able to jump up and down on that spot.
Kenny Primrose:I don't know yeah, it's a very it's a very compelling case, and when I hear you say these things and like, what is that people have such a problem with, this sounds like a very good thing. But I'm interested because you're an immigrant right Jamaica via Canada. You went to a state school where the behavior wasn't good. You ended up going to Oxford. You've got masses of agency You're a paragon of this and you've started a school and so on. Where did that come from if you weren't schooled in it, and what difference might it have made if you'd gone to Michaela?
Katharine Birbalsingh:Oh, my goodness, I'm going to go to Michaela one day I'm only saying that when I'm 65, I'm going to retire and I'm going to sit in the lessons and I'm going to learn my years of history. I don't know enough. I can't even talk to our kids about science and history and so on, because they know, yes, if I'd gone to Michaela, my goodness, I would just know so much. Now I am who I am because of my parents. Okay, my parents taught me right from wrong and I had a real sense of meaning and purpose when I was younger, thanks to my parents. And I remember I grew up in Canada till the age of 15. And we did in the day I doubt they do it now, but in the day we did dissections of frogs and I stood up in the class and said I am not dissecting this frog, this is outrage against its rights as a frog. I had a point, because I'm telling you, all those kids used to take the insides of the frogs and throw the insides at each other. You can just imagine the chaos. It was completely ridiculous Total waste of money on the and these poor frogs had given their lives. I was worried these frogs had died for nothing and we should not have been killing those frogs and then throwing their insides around the classroom. And I refused to have anything to do with it and I just sat there and just they didn't put the frog in front of me and I said I'm not doing it now. That was me. Why was I like that? I don't know it was.
Katharine Birbalsingh:All of us are born with different personalities. My father will tell you that when I was four, I took all the baby powder and poured it all over myself and made a big mess in the room. So I was always a kid. My sister was not like this. My sister was much more quiet and obedient and I was much more kind of I'm going to go and do whatever. That was my personality, but my parents did teach me values that taught me the difference between right and wrong. And actually, when I look back to who I was when I was a kid and the things I used to think and say, it's true that I used to be very much on the left politically, but I'm still the same person. I'm still trying to make the world into a better place. When I didn't dissect those frogs that day, I was trying to make the world into a better place by what I did, right, I used to go to the RSPCA on the weekends and I would walk the dogs, volunteering because I thought it was. I liked animals and so that was what I wanted to do for those animals. It's still the case that I don't eat red meat. Like it's, you find your thing and you do what you can.
Katharine Birbalsingh:And this idea it's not just about removing the constraints Like I think, with Jonathan Haidt, he has this idea. It's not just about removing the constraints. Like I think with jonathan height, he has this idea of having all kinds of what does he say like? Having like metals and various things that you could have in the yard, in a school yard, which kids could use to build things and so on. And I'm always thinking have you ever been in a new city school? Missed the height? Are you classy? Just whack each other with those iron bars. This is insane. So partly, I do think Jonathan Haidt is looking at this from a very middle class point of view. He's dealing with middle class kids. He's dealing with his kids, his friends' kids. It's a different world from the world that I know, and I do wish that I could talk to him because I think there is lots of good in what he's saying on this point. I just think that it needs some altering or some nuance in there really.
Kenny Primrose:Yeah, I'm interested in whether part of the problem comes from kids picking up bars and hitting each other with it, comes from the fact that we don't trust them, comes from the fact that we don't trust them. So we've got a Lord of the Flies type image of what will happen to children if they're allowed to have free reign. But actually there are certain examples of children who've been marooned on islands, who learn to cooperate, who come up with the rules themselves, and so on. And do you think we ever have too low a view of human nature in children? No, no.
Katharine Birbalsingh:You're saying have you ever worked in an inner city school? That's crazy. They're beating each other up all of the time. They put their lives in danger. They're awful.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Look, we were all flawed. Children are very flawed because they've never been taught to be good. We need to teach them to be good. It is not the case that they are good. They are not naturally good. If you put two toddlers together and give them one toy, it is not the case that one toddler is going to say now I'll have it for five minutes and then I'll lend it to you for five minutes and we'll share. They're not going to do that. They're going to beat each other over the head with that toy. Now you can teach them to share, but you have to, and it takes years, that's. The other thing is that it takes a long time.
Katharine Birbalsingh:I've got this great quote here from roger scruton on my wall that says aristotle's view was that there are virtues and there are vices, and that virtues are indicative of a successful life or living in harmony with oneself. And we need to cultivate those virtues so as not to be at odds with ourselves I spoke about being at odds with ourselves earlier so as to be able to flourish. But children do not understand this, and you can only acquire virtues if you acquire the habits that are involved in them. That's what we're all about here at Michaela. We're instilling habit in them so that it just becomes part of who they are. And he says you must do this first by imitation, even if you don't initially know the reason you are doing it. You build up initiative, you build up purity of heart, you build up a sense of justice by encouraging children to imitate before they know why. Then, gradually, as it becomes second nature to them, then they understand that indeed there is a reason for it. That is what we should be doing with children. It's a great quote.
Kenny Primrose:I interviewed Roger Scruton before he passed and his question was what is more important to me than my present desire, which I think is a wonderful question. It's the kind of how do I delay gratification and think about the kind of person I'm going to become in the future.
Katharine Birbalsingh:You must send me your link. Yeah, I can send you the interview you did Fascinating.
Kenny Primrose:You've done extraordinarily well on Progress 8, on all those measures, but it sounds, at least in this conversation, like some of the other stuff that isn't examined is more important to you.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Absolutely Every time our results come out, I say really proud of the kids, but what's most important to me is who they are as people. I say it every single year and everybody always ignores me. I say it all the time what's most important to me is who they are as people. And then people say that, michaela, yeah, but what's important is not just in exam results and I say, yes, that's right, it's not just exam results. Come and see our kids, come and visit and you will see that what is more important to us is not exam results, but who they are as people.
Kenny Primrose:Is there a danger, do you think in follow it's what we're measured on right, education is measured on exam results and so on that schools will focus on that and relegate neglect. Everything else it just becomes about kind of exam results. Is that a danger that you feel your intention with a McKenna Like how do we keep the bigger picture as a bigger picture?
Katharine Birbalsingh:That's right, and what we prove, you see, is that when you do concentrate on the kinds of people they are, the results come with that right. Obviously, you have to get excellent teaching in there. You need good homework, so obviously there's lots of other stuff involved, but actually, if you can speak to their hearts and get them to be the kinds of people who don't procrastinate at home, who do their homework, who become the kinds of people who you will admire and respect, guess what they're going to do well at their GCSEs. That's what will happen. So what I'd like very much is for people to understand that who they are as people will contribute to your exam results.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Unfortunately, the system is such and this has nothing to do with any particular political party the system is such that you can only be judged by the exam results that you get. There's no way of judging how kind children are. There's no way of putting a number on it, and it's something that I find annoying, because actually, I think the thing that we are most proud of here is who they are, but there's no way of demonstrating that to anyone, to say, hey look, we've got the best kindness score in all of the country. There's nothing.
Kenny Primrose:There's this law, goodhart's law, that when a measurement becomes a target, it stops being a good measurement. So I think if there was some metric for kindness, it would stop being kindness. It would become gaming the system in some other way. So I think, keep them unmeasurable and you'll retain their integrity. Good point. I was going to ask you, what do you wish people would talk about more, but presumably it's this stuff, the kind of character stuff. So people talk a lot about Michaela and its success and Progress 8 and so on. I read a story recently about AI bots teaching students and doing so incredibly successfully. Now there's a bunch of questions. I'd like to ask about that and interrogate the data a bit. But let's imagine it's true. What is the human bit of teaching? That means you don't think, and I'm assuming you don't. Teachers can be replaced by AI.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Yeah, that's really good that question, because I often say to people not to staff here or elsewhere I say to staff elsewhere if it is the case that you could just be replaced by a robot, then you're doing something wrong. Obviously you mustn't just think of yourself as somebody who gives them some knowledge and then they copy it down and that's it Right. What a teacher does is build relationships with the children, and those relationships are founded essentially on love, and you love the child and the child loves you, and love is why they work for you. They work for you because they don't want to let you down, because they love you and they care about the respect and the admiration that you're going to give to them or have for them, and so that is so important. Children need motivating and they're not going to get motivated by a robot, they just are. But then there's simply the sophistication that's needed for excellent teaching, which robots certainly at the moment cannot do.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Maybe one day they will, I don't know, but they can't do it now which is to know what you've taught, sense the class, know what they've understood and what they haven't understood. Come back to something to be able to re-explain it, to let them retrieve it from their heads in order to write it. But then you think, oh, let me get them to say it. Now I'm going to bring it back in a class discussion and that retrieval practice is happening on all kinds of different levels, and then I'm going to leave it for 10 minutes and then come back to it, and then in two days I'm going to come back to it and then in five days I'm going to come back to it again and I'm going to put it in a different way and bring it together with that piece of knowledge and get them to fuse that together, to do their own thing with that. And I'm constantly pushing the boat out while at the same time scaffolding for those kids who don't get it.
Katharine Birbalsingh:There's just so much going on. There's no way a robot could do any of that Now. I don't know, robot of the year 3000, maybe he'll be able to do it. Certainly he can't do it now. So the simple quality of the teaching he can't get, and then also just the motivating, the relationships, the sense of team, the sense of belonging, all of that stuff that I was saying is so important to a child feeling happy and secure in school and loved. Ultimately, you want your children to be able to go to school and feel loved. How can a robot love you? It's bad, it's mad.
Katharine Birbalsingh:A robot cannot love you how do your students know that you love them? How do they know I love them? I don't think that they would necessarily know that I personally love them. I don't have one-on-one relationship with the kids. There's a few, but most of them I don't. I go and give assembly every day and they see me every day, but I don't have a relationship with them.
Katharine Birbalsingh:I don't think that's my role. To be honest, I think my role is to support my teachers, because somebody has to love the teachers and if all I'm doing is loving the kids and being there for the kids, then nobody's there for the teachers. And I have to support the teachers and make sure that I've got their back and that I'm helping to train them and support them and scaffold them so that they get what I need to give them, what they give to the kids. So it's my role to support my teachers so that the teachers can love the children.
Katharine Birbalsingh:I represent the school and I'm sure if you were to ask the kids what I do, they would have no idea. They would say I give assemblies. That's what they would say we like and they do. They give me little postcards and they say thank you so much for your assemblies and I always think, gosh, it's so funny. That's all I do is give assemblies, which is fine. They're kids, so obviously they're going to think that. But my role is with the staff and I spend all of my time with my staff and that's so that they could do the best possible job that they can, building the relationships that are needed with the children.
Kenny Primrose:That's incredibly valuable. I want to be respectful of your time, Catherine, but I wonder if I could close by asking you if there's anything, if there's anything you'd like to say to the following stakeholders. So we're discussing the absolutely integral role of schools and parents to the well-being of not just children now but our future. So what would you like to say? Let's start with students.
Katharine Birbalsingh:To young people today, to young well reject the woke way of things, where you blame everybody else apart from yourself or what they're telling you about the world and how everyone's against you. Look inside and think what can I do to make a contribution to the world? Who can I be and be in control of your own life? Stay away from the screens, 100%. Stay away from the screens. Build stuff, do stuff, be interested in the world. And if you don't have the best teaching, that's going on at school or there's chaos well, get yourself some books and read them. Teach yourself. That's what I would say to kids. Fantastic.
Katharine Birbalsingh:What about to parents? Parents? Oh my goodness. Definitely do not give your children screens. Do not give your children a smartphone, not until after 16. In fact, I would take it all the way to 18. Whatever you do when they're toddlers, oh my goodness, read to them, read to them over and over and count the peas on the plate. Zero to five are the most important ages that exist and if you get them to five and they can do all of that, you should have already taught them how to read before they go to school. You should have already taught them how to count. Do not say but that's the teacher's job, because that's insane. It's your job, you are their first teacher, you are their parent. So I would say what about to teachers?
Katharine Birbalsingh:To teachers I would say that I know it is very difficult, I know that the society at the moment makes it very hard to teach, but that it can be done and that you need to just look outside the box. Edutwitter can help you, researched can help you Reading Tom Bennett's books and E Hirsch's books and Dan Willingham's books and all of the stuff that tells you the right way to think about this sort of stuff. Read Michaela's books, come and visit us at Michaela, see what's possible and then just try and aim for that and always think what am I doing wrong? Just don't be brought down by what SLT are doing. Yes, maybe they're making the right, wrong decisions, maybe it's not what you want it to be, but you can do it just in your own classroom. You can. It is you just got to make it your goal and do it and not look outside all the time. For all three of them I would say parents, teachers, kids stop looking outside for who to blame. Look at what you're doing and build something for yourself.
Kenny Primrose:And then finally policymakers.
Katharine Birbalsingh:Oh my goodness. I mean, obviously, what they're doing now is a total disaster. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. Very simple Maybe go and see the schools that are really successful and learn from them. That would be an idea. And be open-minded, because you yourself have never been a teacher or a school leader, so maybe you should ask the school leaders, who actually know what they're doing, and listen to their, their advice really clear.
Kenny Primrose:Thank you, catherine. What gives you hope in a cynical age?
Katharine Birbalsingh:one thing children, children, because they're lovely and they're always so innocent and so wide-eyed and there's always hope with them because they're young enough to believe. I think often adults can become too cynical because they've had a hard time, whereas the kids, they're always ready to go. So that's why I'll always want to work with kids. Being a teacher is the best job in the world.
Kenny Primrose:Catherine, thank you so much for being so generous with your time, your insights and your clarity. I've really appreciated it.
Katharine Birbalsingh:All right, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Kenny Primrose:Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Catherine Birbal-Singh. I did, and one of the things I particularly enjoyed was realizing that the quote she read by Roger Scruton was actually from an interview I did with him back in 2009. That interview was exploring Roger's question what is more important to me than my present desire? It's a great question, and it provides a lovely segue into the next episode with Professor William Damon from Stanford. William has spent his working life studying purpose, why we thrive with it and why we languish without it. I'll leave you with a short taster from the forthcoming episode. Before I sign off, though, can I make my usual plea to subscribe, like share and feel free to get in touch. Thank you for listening.
William Damon:In what ways does how you're spending your time match or relate to where you want to be headed in life, or do the kinds of day-to-day activities that are absorbing your time and attention and thoughts connect with where you want to go with your life and what kind of person you want to become, what kind of things you want to accomplish in life? These are all different ways of asking the same question, which invites people to examine what they're doing with their time, from the moment they wake up till they go to bed at night. Is that a good use of your time? In other words, is it the right use of your time, or are there adjustments you might want to make to advance the things you believe in, the goals you have in life?