Cleaning Business Life is the podcast for cleaning business owners who want to build a profitable company without sacrificing their entire life to do it.
Hosted by industry leaders Shannon Miller and Jamie Runco, the show brings real-world conversations about pricing, hiring, leadership, systems, boundaries, profitability, and sustainable growth.
With more than 240 episodes rooted in actual cleaning-industry experience, you’ll hear the lessons, mistakes, hard decisions, and strategies that business owners rarely talk about publicly.
Whether you’re starting your cleaning company, stuck inside the daily operations, or ready to grow into the CEO role, you’ll find honest guidance to help you charge more, earn more, and stress less.
No hype. No surface-level advice. Just real cleaning-business conversations from women who have built the businesses themselves.
In this episode of Cleaning Business Life, Shannon Miller and co-host Jamie Runco dig into the stereotypes that have followed cleaners and domestic workers for decades — and how today’s cleaning business owners are rewriting the story.
From movies like Maid in Manhattan and The Help to sitcom punchlines and mystery novels where “the maid finds the body,” the media has quietly trained the world to see cleaners as less-than. Shannon and Jamie trace how that narrative formed, how the Fair Labor Standards Act finally recognized domestic workers, and why COVID-era “essential worker” status still hasn’t translated into the respect cleaners deserve.
They also share practical ways to reclaim your professional identity:
Why problem clients and non-payers are the exception, not the standard
How pricing, premium rates, and boundaries protect your business
The power of systems, booking platforms, uniforms, and online presence
Red flags in “high-control” clients and underpaying jobs
Why mentorship, education, and collaboration over competition are game-changers
Shannon also shares details about the annual Structure Scale & Profit Cleaning Academy scholarship, a $4,500 value including one-on-one coaching, created to give one cleaning business owner a serious leg up in the industry.
If you’re ready to stop accepting “just the cleaner” vibes and start showing up as the 23rd trade professional you really are, hit play, subscribe, and leave a 5-star review so more cleaners can find this conversation.
Thanks for tuning in to Cleaning Business Life — the podcast for cleaning business owners who want to build a profitable, sustainable company without burning out.
Hosted by Shannon Miller and Jamie Runco, each episode pulls back the curtain on what it really takes to start, grow, and scale a cleaning business — covering pricing, systems, leadership, boundaries, and the real conversations most people avoid.
Welcome back to Cleaning Business Live. Today Jamie and I are pulling back the curtain on something that impacts every single cleaner, maid service owner, domestic worker out there, and that is John Wolfree. Stereotypes in the cleaning industry. From Hollywood matropes to clients who still treat us like we're less than, we're talking about where those beliefs come from, why they're dead wrong, and how you can reclaim your value through pricing systems, branding, and of course, my favorites, your mindset. If you've ever been treated just the cleaner while quietly laughing all the way to the bank, this episode's for you. Let's dive in. Welcome, Jamie. Long time no see. Woohoo! How are you, Miss Channel? I am fantastic. How are you? I am doing great. And what are we talking about today? We are going to talk about breaking stereotypes in the cleaning industry, the truth behind the mop. And we've all seen the movies made from Manhattan, The Help. Um, and there's even sitcoms that have an indirect correlation, like Handmaiden, where you know they the popul the servants were made to populate the earth because the elite could no longer do it. I didn't I think I watched one or two seasons of that, I never finished it.
SPEAKER_00
Um it's not super derogatory, but just kind of yeah, made a lot of movies and or books that kind of sway a certain opinion about our industry.
SPEAKER_01
And as you know, I consider us the 23rd trade. Um you're new to the 23rd trade, welcome. Um, but this is why cleanliness needs to be respected, but cleaners are not with the people it's now become mainstream since COVID happened and we were considered air quotes essential. That kind of was a pivotal point for the industry, but now it's we still are lacking a lot in respect. We see it a lot in the groups. We it's often a homeowner who goes, I you know, you can't make this much money, or you can't do this, or my other cleaner did that. And in reality, those are problemed clients. That's not the norm, those are the exception because they're pains in the butts, and they go through company after company after company after company, and they're never going to give you the respect that you deserve. Right now, we're seeing a whole rash of non-payments for move out cleanings or top to bottom deluxe cleanings and with the promise of longer service afterwards when they actually, this is my opinion and my experience speaking, they have no intention of carrying you on long term. They're just trying to get a good deal so that they don't have to pay full price. And I'm not a big believer of giving discounts. There are certain systems that you can give a discount, but it ends up benefiting you, not being a hindrance. So those are systems that I personally would do, but I would not give a discount because someone arbitrarily said you don't deserve to get paid, and you need to give me a discount, and I make more than you. And this is what we're going to cover today. And then there's a whole dynamic that happened. You guys might have heard me mention this in another podcast about the domestics. So the US federal government formally recognized the value of domestics is what they were labeled as a pay increase in the 80s. So domestics were babysitters, house cleaners, nannies. They they got they had to be paid a wage because at the at that point it was up for grabs. I think we'll talk about my babysitter club. I think I charged a dollar per hour and I split it with the babysitter because I was 12, right? Yeah. Yeah. But there was this whole dynamic of how they amended the Fair Labor Standards Act to finally include domestic workers. So that and that was actually the inception point for the cleaning industry, how it stands today. And that was the spark that started the cleaning industry because someone said, Hey, now that we can pay fair wages, maybe we can make some money out of it. And then you see Jeff Campbell, and then there were a couple other the the rag lady, the the fly lady. Who are they for the one with the curly hair? What was her name? She had several books. Haley's cleaning hints.
SPEAKER_00
Well, then it's a lot of maybe go on to even the franchises, uh Mary Maids, Molly Maids, Mary Maids. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
And then before that act was in place, there was no, oh, you could you didn't have to pay overtime. It was just, I'm gonna pay you a dollar an hour, and that you didn't have any rights, you couldn't because you weren't considered part of the Fair Labor Act. It was just it's really wild to think of that. That was just literally four decades ago and five decades ago. But those protections were added, and effectively gave cleaners across the country a pay raise in validation that cleaning was actually real work, not just some side hustle, is what we call it now. Back then it was self-employed. Yeah, that's that's where we are today. That's how the uh whole evolution of the cleaning industry started with the Fair Labor Act in the 80s and made it so that we had to pay our helpers more than just a dollar an hour or 50 cents an hour or 75 cents an hour. And people would take advantage of that and you wouldn't get anything more. There was no more time, nothing.
SPEAKER_00
Right. Well, and they still try to do that to a certain point. And this is why it's so important. This is to try and look as professional as possible. If you don't have a booking platform, go out and get you one, right? So that sends out reminders, don't sit there and text. Hey, you know, you can if you're just starting out, definitely you you're gonna have to build up to this point. But whenever you start are able to get starting to get to where you're going need help to hire, having that booking platform makes that's whenever I seen a shift in my business and I started being looked at like, whoa, you know, the banks, whenever I bought my house, whenever I bought my car, they want okay, well, we need two years of tax returns, and it's a schedule C. And whenever I gave them my two years, every time I you could just see it. It was like, oh, oh, this is a little more than a side hustle now.
SPEAKER_01
Welcome to the party. Yeah, oh but I say, you know, when people are disrespecting you financially, just keep laughing all the way to the bank. I am not joking when I say those things because you can and you will laugh all the way to the bank. Um, it's a lot of stereotypes come from the media, they come from the news. Hollywood has a full-on narrative problem. I mean, we've I've seen how many times have you seen Made in Manhattan with Jennifer Lopez? Oh, yes. I love that movie before I was in the cleaning industry, but I didn't really get the the context of the sublimial languages that were being presented. I just thought it was a cute movie. I did too. Yeah, I still think it's a cute movie. It's subconsciously telling the population we are less than the help, romanticizes servitude through limited lens rather than celebrating skill, integrity, entrepreneurial mindset of domestic workers. I actually have, I think I have two copies of that book, and I've seen the movie, and it's there's there's moments where it's actually funny, right?
SPEAKER_00
So funny.
SPEAKER_01
And then there's Little Miss Sunshine, I believe, is a movie that talks about crime scene cleaning and they go through this. It's uh, you know, two friends, two sisters, and they dispose of things incorrectly, but they're looking for extra money, and and we've come a long way since those days.
SPEAKER_00
Oh, the cleaner, yeah, that's a good that's a good show where she's doing cleaning up for the mafia, right?
SPEAKER_01
That was you, you know what I mean? But there's this whole dynamic of you know, secret or servitude, or we are less than sitcoms like friends and the family guy often use cleaners as punchlines or nameless characters in the background because we're easy to pick on and we're most of us are women, so we won't say anything. Hopefully, by hearing me be vocal, you will become vocal. There's mystery novels like The Maid, the one who discovers the body, rarely one who owns the business. I actually haven't read that one. Have you read that one?
SPEAKER_00
No, no, I'm an audiobook person, so I'm gonna have to write that down, really.
SPEAKER_01
I'm gonna write it down. These storylines reinforce the idea that cleaning is beneath success rather than part of it. Cleaning is part success. I know more millionaires, and I say this all the time, in the cleaning industry than in any other industry. And if we weren't so popular and we weren't so hot, not so many people would be jumping in on the bandwagon. There are people I have never heard of before who are suddenly experts in the field, or they start a cleaning company and immediately sell it because it's too hard, and they have marketing agencies and like, give me a break. Yeah, get over it, right? Yeah, you have your cleaning company for 18 months and you want to sell it, or you see it on booking koala. I have a business and I know I and they have the marketing agency, right? The marketing agency, it takes 18 months. We're like, oh, this is a lot harder than I'm like, yeah, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00
And it it it is, it really is, especially trying to build up those systems in place so that we are no longer looked at, right? Like you, I I do demand respect. I do too. Yeah, I demand respect, and it there's a certain confidence that has come along with that as I've built my systems. I'm no longer this meek shy. Yep, you're right. I'm just the cleaner, you know, I'm no longer the cleaner, very, very rarely. And I I it's not just and my employees that are the cleaners, they're killing it, they're killing it on their paycheck. So, again, you know, like you said, laughing all the way to the bank. Um, but it takes it does take some hard work and it does take some building of your systems to demand that respect, an online presence, especially in this day and age with the digital, the with all the digital that we have, and all the products that there is out there to build that brand and make you look there.
SPEAKER_01
Seems to be almost too many products. It's like choosing cereal. Oh, yeah. There's definitely and new ones pop up all the time. I saw a new one over there I've never heard of before, and he's like, and they call them the tradies, and like, okay, so now it's hip to be a tradeie, and we kind of are are in there, but not all the way because we're always looked at less than even in the in the same industry as service or trades, we're we're the bottom of the on the echelon. But in reality, we're making more money than those guys, so that's just my opinion. You could you could slam me all you want, but I I believe that there is money to be made in the cleaning industry. I always have, and I probably always will feel that way. And then we have to actually start reclaiming our professional identity, and that's why Jamie mentioned having logoed. If if you have W-2s, don't do this if you have 1099s, having logoed shirts, having logoed bags, having uh logoed hats, what you know, wearing your uniform. I wore an actual company uniform, and they're like, I thought you weren't cleaning anymore. I'm like, I'm not cleaning, but I still have a company. And my teachers should probably wear my company uniform more often, right? I was like, oh, I'm like, oh, look at this. I shook it off, right?
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
SPEAKER_01
You stopped cleaning. I'm like, no, I I still clean. No, I don't clean, but I still have cleaning going on.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you're still very much involved.
SPEAKER_01
But so it's just the maid myth has held the industry back for decades. And and then that's changing. And I know I've been saying this for five years in a row that it's slowly changing, but it really, in reality, if it wasn't such a gold mine right now, there wouldn't be so many people stepping into it and becoming coaches or experts or influencers. There wouldn't be, uh we wouldn't be here. The industry would just kind of be the same as it was in the 80s and 90s, right? Right, exactly. So branding systems education, obviously, I prefer that you went through Clean Freaks University, but wherever you get the information I prefer to.
SPEAKER_00
I do. I prefer hiring somebody, a coach and a mentor, is I've is really key. There's a all it is is you're not trying to reinvent the wheel. You're not trying these people have been there, they've already done it. Every tear that you're crying, every you know how many parking lots I've gone into on the side of it in the way back and just had a good cry just because it's like it's hard, and I knew it it can be, but whenever you have a coach and a or a mentor, a consultant, however you want to, whatever you want to call them, I call it a coach, you have somebody that really that you can lean into and that understands you because I'm gonna tell you, not even my husband understands, you know, and he can watch me all the all the time, but really somebody that really understands all your pains, everything they've been there, they've been there, and so it is it's really nice to be able to lean in on somebody, not to say that to abuse that, you know, abuse, you know, abuse that power, but but really being able to lean into somebody that's understands and has been there and done that has been so I'm so thankful for it, you know.
SPEAKER_01
Definitely so it's always helpful to have someone give you a leg up rather than trying to invent the wheel. And even though the cleaning industry is notorious for DIYing it, still to this day, I know because I used to be you. But it's you get to a point in your life where you wanna, you don't necessarily want to fast track, but you don't want to have to invent the wheel to take a step. It takes a lot more work to invent that wheel than it is to actually jump on the wheel that's already going around. And and I'm guilty of it. I mean, I hear all the time people go, Oh, I watch YouTube, and YouTube videos will sometimes give you some of the information, but they won't give you all the information. And people go, and I've heard this in the industry recently. Well, they should just give us everything for free. I am sick and tired of people asking me to give them my time, my energy, my expertise for free. I have no problem and not pay for it. I'll give you a pay for it. Yeah, I'll give anyone 15 minutes for free. No, no obligation. But after you get your free whatever, don't keep coming back over and over and over again, wanting more free. My time and my energy cost money, and it's only fair. There's there's this weird dynamic in in the industry and in every trade where you should have to give everything for free. And that's not the case, especially in other Facebook groups. We have seen that. We're not gonna name names, no, but yeah, I see it all.
SPEAKER_00
I see it often in in the group. Hey, do you guys got a whole contract bundle? Sure do, but you know, you're gonna have to pay. I had to pay for that, right? I had to pay for that, and I'm you know, rightfully so.
SPEAKER_01
I had to pay for it, I had to go to an emergency pay for it, right? Like to make sure it was legal, right? So charging, and this has been a really hot topic. I made a post on my personal Facebook page, and it was talking about this is a little off topic, Mortimer's Farms. Every year, Mortimer's Farm, which used to be called Young's Farm here in Dewey, Arizona, Dewey Humboldt's, puts on this big festival for the state. So you can come up from Phoenix, pick pumpkins, walk around the farm. It's an actual working farm. On the weekends, they have trains and wagon rides, and they have a band, and there's food you can buy inside. They never check backpacks, you can bring in your own food, but it does cost money to get in, and it's just this whole debate. So it takes one person to complain about the pricing, and then 987 comments later, it's like they're greedy, greedy, greedy. And my whole point of that mentioning that is that charging premium rates isn't greedy because everyone said Mortimer's Farms was greedy, we should get in for free. And these are other business owners. I'm like, you guys clearly don't understand how this works. I'm like, yeah, we need working farms, right? And it's it's survival, you have to charge premium pricing to make it, even if you're a solo and you don't have an LLC yet and you're just by yourself, you actually need to charge more than a company because you can only take on two, maybe three houses a day, right?
SPEAKER_00
Well, I exactly always charge, even if it's not happened yet, right? Somewhere down the road, you're going to grow. And if you can't, if you're busting at the seams on your schedule, you're gonna burn it. You're gonna burn it and it's all gonna crash down. You need to charge as if you've already got W2 employees. Charge like you already you already got the employees, and and they're you're onboarding them. Premium prices are your time is valuable, right? Your time is so you are valuable. Yeah, believe that you can do this. Don't listen to these stereotypes of that is so gosh, I've been dating myself. That's so 80s or so 90, so early 2000s, like it's really, you know, we have come so far, and yeah, you need to just really believe in yourself and have that confidence because I promise you those people will eventually pay your hold out, don't be a big well and just swoop up and do whatever they ask you, swoop up every single job, letting them dictate how much you're charging. The the people will come, have patience, your schedule will fill up with your the right demographic, right?
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes we get convoluted by the shiny object syndrome. I'm guilty of it myself, and you have to learn not to jump on the shiny object syndrome. And like, for example, you guys all know I have a private messenger group for all of the local cleaners here, and they were talking about yesterday she did a bid for somebody and they wanted to charge by the hour. And she's like, Well, if I'm gonna charge by the hour, it's gonna be 50, which is below minimum national average right now as it stands. And it says, I turned down a cleaning job from two retired cops who didn't want to pay my $50 an hour, but I offered to send out a group chat to see if anyone would be interested in doing it for $30 to $35 to $40, which is even way below. And so someone chimed in and says, is that per cleaner that rate or for both? And she wants one cleaner and she wants to run the show. She wants whomever to use her supplies in vacuum. The person also, because they're retired police officers, needs to pass a background check. Well, not everyone's gonna pass a background check. So laughing, I've put a laughing emoji. I'm like, oh, she's control, she's got control issues, right? Because yeah, I get it, but that's a red flag. I'm like, no one's gonna step in that pile of poop, but you never know. And the whole point is branding yourself as being professional. One person turned it down, another person said I might be interested, and then they said, Well, you need to have passed a background check. And it's just like, if you I get the whole background check, but like yeah, you can't find if you pass the background check, maybe your helper that you send there isn't gonna pass a background check, or maybe some other situation happens, and then wrong, right? So it's just it becomes you should background check automatically.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but then when you're when there's a special request of doing a second background check, it's a red flag, it's just a red flag, and and we do, and that's another that is another, it's just for peace of mind, and it just shows how much oh, and this is eventually now. If you're just starting out, this isn't all this does not happen overnight. No, you gotta learn. Oh, oh, yeah, I need to do background checks. Oh, to be bonded that gives them peace of mind and a background check. Uh, background checks are always on file in my filing cabinet, ready to go, just in case. I suggest even updating that every you know, maybe once a year on your your workers. It just depends on the situation. Yeah, it does, but uh yeah, yeah. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01
No, no, I just uh yeah. So professional cleaning requires skill, endurance, there's some chemistry knowledge there, and precision. And it it's time to pay, get the pay that reflects that. So in the biggest key component that I have seen this year, at least in 2025, is the the fact that the appliances in the kitchen can get ruined really easy, and 99% of the time it's the oven. I don't know why it's the oven that is the most difficult thing to clean, but I've seen uh more ruined ovens this year than ever before.
SPEAKER_00
Well, they're coming out with those new ovens, but the the knowledge that you have to learn in order to get not every chemical can go on every surface, learning pH levels.
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it's it's stop, stop, stop with a toilet cleaner, stop.
SPEAKER_00
I know oh, there's a new one. Uh, I don't even want I'm not going to broadcast it. Never mind. Bad idea.
SPEAKER_01
So mindset and industry evolution has come a long ways. We do try to be as positive as we can, hence the reason why I changed the name of my group. Because I feel and I've experienced it, Jamie's experienced it, other cleaning influencers have experienced this year, other cleaning business owners. This bullying factor has to stop. So, mindset and the industry evolution needs to change. Your mindset needs to change. It's not about pecking order like it is a bunch of chickens. This is about pushing people up to the top. That's why I'm constantly pushing all of you guys from the bottom. You guys all heard me in the maid summit. Collaboration over competition accelerates the shift in public perception and normalizes professional standards. I actually saw Jennifer, she is collaborating with another cleaning business owner, and she now them they're taking over larger jobs. So she's gonna keep me posted to see how that goes. But if you have not caught my talk on collaboration of competition, check out Zen Made Summit. I think it's on the Maid Summit for ZenMade.
SPEAKER_00
It's over there on ZenMade, actually on their YouTube channel. Correct. I wasn't sure if they made an actual extra channel or not. I think so. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01
So that's what I would work on for sure to make sure that you know things are gonna work smoothly with you, and that we have some professionalism and standards in place, and then being positive and being kind to one another. I'm so sick of seeing people be really mean because they can. It's just like right.
SPEAKER_00
It's like it's some things are just that, just leave it alone. But it just I believe that our community is positive, it really is. I'm glad that you changed the Mage Network over to a positive, growing, thriving group of people. And yeah, I I this was a good one. If you guys have any questions, you guys can always reach out. Like, subscribe, five-star reviews. We love them. Let's get some algorithms going so that we can reach more people out there that and and help uh the industry as much as possible because this matters, you guys matter. This industry, I mean, it's taken us all to new heights, and we can all grow together. So that is oh Shannon, what are you doing for your da-da Structure Scale Profit Cleaning Academy?
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_00
I'm the worst at promoing my own thing. I I know. I because and I and let me tell you, it's such a big value, and this is a big deal to me because it helped me so much. Go, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01
So you're totally fine. Every year, for I think it's been four years, five years, I don't remember. I think maybe four. Well, 21, 22, 23, five years. It goes by fast. Every year to give back to my community. I have had a scholarship program that is sponsored by Clean Freaks University. It's entirely free. There's no money exchanged at all. And and it's it's a what is it, $2,700, $3,200 value plus I this year? $500 value. So I guess I guesstimate that it'll be about $4,500 value. Absolutely free. There are a couple of criteria markers for that. You have to actually apply, you have to fill out all the questions. I read them, my husband reads them. We had 381 cleaning businesses apply. I don't think any other cleaning business coach does this. And like I said, I do this as a way to give back because not everybody were struggling in the beginning, trying to make things happen. And I thought it would be a nice way to give someone a leg up. And yeah, there's that. And we obviously are also looking for sponsorships. If sponsorship is something that you are interested in for the 26th season, please reach out to myself or Jamie, and Jamie can forward it over to me, and um, we can go through negotiations to see what sponsorship package is great for you.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, get those get those forms filled out, you guys. This is a great program that Shannon has poured such a labor of love into it. And we want, I want to see her help one person as much as she's helped me, as much as she's helped me. I would love to see that. So get those forms filled out and like, subscribe, share, five star reviews. We'll see you guys next time.
