Veronica Rose: How To Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty

In this episode of DADHOOD, Thomas and Frankie sit down with Veronica Rose (@howtobeauthentic) from How To Be Authentic to discuss burnout, boundaries, self-worth, people pleasing, corporate culture, and the courage to live authentically. Veronica shares her personal journey from corporate burnout and losing her job to building a business centered around helping people advocate for their needs, protect their mental health, and reclaim their lives. 

Main Emotional Themes

•  Burnout and recovery 
•  Self-worth beyond productivity 
•  Setting healthy boundaries 
•  Authenticity 
•  Personal growth 
•  Fatherhood and legacy 
•  Emotional intelligence 

Key Fatherhood Lesson

Your kids don't need a perfect provider—they need a present parent who understands their own worth and models healthy boundaries.

Chapters

00:00 – Meet Veronica: How To Be Authentic
02:45 – Burnout In Corporate America
07:10 – The Cost Of Overworking Yourself
12:20 – Why Self-Worth Gets Tied To Productivity
17:05 – Corporate Culture And Speaking Up
22:30 – The Hidden Cost Of Burnout
27:45 – Why Kids Just Want Time With Their Parents
31:20 – Legacy Beyond Career Success
36:15 – Learning To Say No
41:40 – Boundaries Without Guilt
46:35 – Recovering From People Pleasing
51:50 – Self-Love And Self-Respect
57:05 – Protecting Your Energy
1:02:20 – Teaching Kids Healthy Boundaries
1:07:40 – Why Rest Is Productive
1:12:30 – Journaling And Self-Awareness
1:17:45 – Building An Authentic Life
1:22:15 – Final Thoughts & Upcoming Events

Thanks for listening to the DADHOOD Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with another dad who’s figuring it out one day at a time.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:04

Welcome to Dadhood. Welcome, my friends. My name is Frankie. And I'm Thomas. And welcome to the Dadhood Podcast. And we've got a guest here, so you got to kind of give the setup on how you met Veronica.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Yeah, so Veronica and I met at a networking event in Salt Lake City. Um, we just started like chatting right out the gate, and I was like, I am digging not only what you do, just your vibe, your energy. And I was like, she would be a great guest for the show, and now she's here in the studio.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

So how to be authentic.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

That's kind of your thing. So we were kind of talking a little bit as we were getting coffee, getting set up for today's show. So kind of give us a story of your background. You said you were in corporate America. I think a lot of people can relate to being let go, working in corporate America.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah. So I was a manager for hospitality industry corporate. I went from having a restaurant of 12 employees, did really well, went up to doing festival operations and having uh 261 employees under my belt. That was a lot to handle. And I worked really hard at trying to make everybody happy and just trying to succeed in my role to the point where I was up at four in the morning trying to get timesheets done and just overextending myself consistently to the point where I was becoming depressed, anxious, and it really bogged down my mental health to the point where I was let go. And I realized through that I was putting my boundaries up before I was let go, understanding what was happening to my mental health. And I remember at the end I had told them that I was not going to work eight days straight doing manual labor, breaking down the festival in the heat. And at that point they were like, if you're not going to do this for us, you're you can't be here anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

We'll get we'll get someone else to do it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's so ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

And that was not even part of my role to begin with. So, you know, that is like when we were talking about, you know, that crushed my feeling like I'm not good enough because I didn't do this. And at that point I needed a break from all of it. And then I went to Costa Rica for four months, and I'm a whitewater kayaker. I love high-risk environments and evaluating risk in that way. Anyways, I played in the water and in rivers, and I decided what do I want to do with my life at this point. Through that, I decided I want to help people stand up for their needs, their priorities, their health and their happiness and their overall quality of life so that they're able to not only succeed, but take care of themselves in the process.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

I want to speak to that a little further because that is interesting, and I think a lot of people they they don't they don't feel that they can stand up for themselves in, let's say, the corporate setting. Because that was me personally, like in the last couple few years of our situation, I know why they let us go, and it was because we were standing up for ourselves. And we weren't being insubordinate, right? We were questioning things.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

And we were standing up for what we believed in.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Corporate hates.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

They questioned they don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

No. And when you start questioning, that's when they're like, your job is to just do what we say. Yeah. And when you question, right, it's like insubordination, which someone who's young trying to make my path through management and leadership roles, I love asking questions, love having clarity of the things that I need to do under having a deeper understanding so that I can perform better. And the way that they change that narrative to now you're being defiant, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

So which they they tell you also that we want you to feel empowered. We want you to have a voice. It's all lip service, though.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Just don't use a voice against what we're saying. Exactly. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

Well, and these are conversations. So I've got a an almost 10-year-old, and he knows he remembers when, you know, when I got fired. I I I I'll tell him, I'll say, dude, here's the thing. The reason we got let go was because we spoke up for ourselves. So I'll never have any regret on standing up for what I believed in. But like you said, to speak to your point, they don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

They don't. When I present, I like to start off a lot of my workshops or keynote speaking, talking about how Harvard Business Review posted a report saying that the cost of burnout in employees in the United States is over $190 billion a year in healthcare expenses. That's $190 billion in reactive care for burnout employees because society has normalized over extension, because our worth is based off how much we can produce, how hard we can hustle, to the point where we're spending $190 billion to recover from the impacts that this is having on us.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

So did you have, because I look at this funny you say that, because in the last couple few years of what we were in, we were physically breaking down and we were very vocal about it. Like, look, we're making these changes, but just kind of give us a little time with this because physically we were, I mean, not well. Mentally, we weren't well, and we were very open with that. Right. And they just kind of said basically that I remember one manager in particular saying, You gotta lean into it more. And it's like, if we lean anymore, we're gonna be flat on our face.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

So how was it for you, like as far as physically and emotionally, towards the end? Like I'm sure you know the stress, oh yeah, everything, was it was it physically taking a toll on you?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Oh, completely. I I was truly going through it. I mean, I would come home, I I wasn't able to sleep, constantly ruminating about like how could I have done a situation better? How could I have been more productive in this situation? Just thinking about all these scenarios during the day of what could I have done to be better. I was I'm I was crying all the time when I got home, just like feeling like I didn't do enough. I wasn't, I wasn't worthy of being in the position that I was in. And it got to the point where I have a psych degree, recognized what was going on, and I was like, I need therapy because I need someone to talk to and support me through helping me process what's going on. So I started going to therapy for two days a week because it was so it was so intense what I was dealing with. And she was like, You need to quit this job. This is terrible. This is terrible. The way that they're treating you is terrible. And I mean, you know, so two days a week, I would have lists of things that I wanted to discuss with her and process through. And constantly she's like, you are beating yourself up for a job that is not worth it for what they are putting you through.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

So this is interesting. This is back on what we were talking about last time. The price that we actually pay for something isn't just in the moment that we're doing it. Remember, we were talking we were chatting about this kind of from a more of a financial standpoint, but this is a great example as well. The price that you're paying by over-leveraging yourself, burnout, just this overextension of your capabilities, and it's playing against your ego, like I'm not good enough. So you're you're questioning yourself worth, but this price of now I also have to take extra time out of my life that I should I should have for fun and enjoyment, because isn't that why we work so we have means? Not not these days, shouldn't we do that to have means to do fun activities? But now you're actually taking more time of your life just to unpack and work through that thing that's crushing you to begin with.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

All the shit that they're putting you to. Yeah. And they and it's but and it's by design, I think. I mean, a lot like as far as managers, I mean, you if you've got like a psych background, I'm sure you could see like the psychological warfare.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

I mean, hospitality industry as well, that is like a whole nother n realm to unpack. Like just their whole and a lot of the a lot of it is changing and they're trying to be more aware, especially in like back of house with cooks, the mental health going on back there. It's a high stress environment. You have a lot of people with high expectations of service, especially in fine dining and things like that. Through that, there's a narrative that is trying to change. But the whole point of my company is to help change that narrative to the money that we're spending on reactive care, we should be spending on ourselves as proactive care, taking care of our bodies, taking time away so that we can have fun and enjoy our lives so that we are productive and successful because we're nourishing our bodies, because we're caring about our health and our happiness, because we're being present in life, and that makes us great employees as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

They preach the balance thing, but they don't. Like I said, it's just lip service. Because I remember going through and and I and it's every I think it's most or a lot of big companies, they do that. Right. They preach it.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

But they don't actually, there's no action with it. They have the meetings, or we're trying to implement more balance, work-life balance, and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

And that I think that word, and that's an interesting word that you said, balance, right? Because I was having a discussion with this woman named Amber Plant, who is a very similar role to what I do, but she's specifically for burnout. And we were discussing yesterday the definition of balance. And she was like, I hate that word because I have now this perception of balance in my life as I have to do all of these things because now I'm balanced. If I go, you know, she's religious. So if I go to church, if I, you know, always go to the gym, if I'm always doing, you know, these things, making sure I'm doing all these things at work, if I have these balance in these ways in my life, then things are balanced. But she was like, that balance that I was perceiving was actually degrading my mental health so much. And she shifted for her the idea of actually calling it alignment. What feels aligned in your life that makes your priorities and your needs really come out and feel like they're being prioritized and seen.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

That's so good. I mean, I'm a Libra, so y'all are talking about balance. I'm I feel it every day. It's in my core, my soul level, right? Um, one of the things, Veronica, that I really was excited to have you on is because you when you and I were chatting, you're saying you want to really help men with this concept of just the power of being able to say no. Right. Right. Like I feel like if if something's ahead of me, it's a challenge everything's a challenge and I've got to conquer through it. The thought of saying no feels like quitting.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Right. And it's this thing with men, and I and it's known women are known to be not we're both equally men and women equally emotional. And the statistics are just that women have, I wouldn't say an easier time, but they're more expressive of their emotions. So now that there's this idea that men, because that they're less expressive, don't have these same emotions, which is completely wrong. And it's understanding that have you can have that self-expression of your emotions and know that you're completely validated for it. For example, like women feel like they need to, as a mother, provide in these ways well. Men also feel those ways, especially thinking like usually, you know, many men are, you know, the breadwinner of the household. And they're the ones that want to show, oh, you have to be tough, oh, you have to be strong, oh, when things come, here's how you get over the hurdle and stuff like that. But I think what I want to help men understand is that you are just a human being as well. Your needs and wants matters as much as this idea of what you have to put forward. And I think once you can understand that it's okay to just be a human being and not be all of these expectations and standards that society's created for you, that that's when life, that's when the tension eases a bit.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Yeah. We were talking about the self-worth thing. I'm in the midst of it, and I think I'm doing a lot better since being let go in 2023. But I think like a lot of people, that was my identity and my self-worth was tied to productivity. So, like what I produced was my self-worth. And and now I'm realizing that's not the case. You know, I feel like I've found a different purpose. I still have that purpose, but it's in a different realm, like in the audible space. But I feel like it's bigger than that. You know, it's it's more about building a life as opposed to like the career. Of course, the career is important, but it's not as important as I thought it was.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

You know? And it's taken me that getting fired to kind of see it and question. And we talk about this, it's like, why, why am I doing certain things? Like I was, you know, very driven, and I did love and still do love the business, but what were my motives? Like, were they was it me trying to unpack shit from my childhood or undo something from my childhood? Was it driven was I driven because somebody said, you know, you can't do this, or you're an idiot, you know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

I think that there's a lot of external factors that play a role into that, right? Like, I think when growing up for me as well, like when you talk about your childhood, it's different for me because my mother was the breadwinner, but she was a hustler in that sense. You know, she was always working, she was always trying to create more money for us. And we I lived a privileged life with what she did, you know, and I'm very thankful for that. But at the same thing, I think that she felt like that worth came from that as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

And there's just more, there's more to it than you're worth being from that. And I think as a child, you don't perceive your parent as, oh my gosh, you're so successful because you're working so hard to give us the life that we're living. As a child, you're like, I want to be with you, I want to spend time with you.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Right. Because that's the value prop. We talk about this a lot. The legacy, we like growing up for me, I can't speak for anybody else, but like this concept of your legacy is what you create, what job title you had, the material world. Right. Right. We preach a lot of the legacy is really like how they feel once you leave.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Like, are they gonna sit there and be like, you know, yeah, this is great, dad left this, but man, I just miss sitting and talking with him. I just miss him picking me up and holding me. Exactly. I just miss those moments where he looks at me and I didn't have to do anything or perform for him to be proud of me. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

I think of it. Axel when he's in his 30s or 40s, like when I'm dead and gone, like what is he gonna say about me? And I hope he says that, you know, my dad wasn't perfect. Yes. I always say I'm a work in progress. Hopefully he he realizes that, like, we're all works in progress, but he showed up for me. Yeah. And that's what I, you know, that's what I strive. Yeah, that's what I strive to be is like I'm there for you, man. And I'm, you know, whether it's a sporting event or whatever it is, or just day-to-day, I'm there.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Because those are those micro wins, right? It's like we can't be at everything, and we understand that. And that there's a whole different level of like guilt or feeling that pressure, just as a parent in general, moms, dads, whoever, that like I have to be at everything my kid has or create something because they're out of school. Yeah, what are we doing today? Like, summertime right now. You're like, we have to make their life magical every single moment. It's like, no, you're gonna be bored, dude, and that's that's good. Right. You hit on this word hustle, and I'll be honest, like that word for me was really nailed in with Gary Vaynerchuk, like would hit that like hustle, hustle. I didn't understand it till like recently. He's not talking about hustle in the sense of just like constantly producing, he's talking about hustle towards the things that draw passion in your life. You talked about seeing your mom hustle all the time. I did the same thing, watched my dad hustle all the time, not in the way we maybe wanted it.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

They were out there providing grinding. Yes. Now, when you were looking up, I and I don't know, but I feel like like I looked up to my dad. Boys tend to sometimes look up to their fathers as this example, and you're probably looking at your mom hustling. Did that add another layer then when you were in your corporate job that you felt like I can't leave because I watched my mom do this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

I was like, my mom was a force to be reckoned with, and so will I. And that was just part of it's a lot of pressure. It is. It is. I felt like, yes, there was the pressure, but there was also like this like uh she's past now. So it's like I feel her with me when I was in there, and especially when the authority or you know, the bosses would say things need to be this way. And it was like in the back of my head, she was like, stand up to this right now, you know? I love that. And so I was just a force and they did not like it. So I would very much speak up about how this was wrong for X, Y, and Z, how doing this is going to mistreat these people. Is this really protecting the company when you're not valuing your employees this way? Because now they're going to turn over the amount of money that you're losing because you're turning over these employees consistently instead of putting in the money to train them correctly and to listen when they have problems to actually understand it and see what you can do about it to increase their well-being so that they want to be more productive and you profit more.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

So it's having integrity.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Having integrity.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

You know, and and a lot of these companies, again, will preach that they do. They're like, oh, we're and it's like, no, you're not. Yeah, you know, and that's the bottom line. You're we're it's we are online on an Excel spreadsheet.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Right. That's it. It's being able to voice when it's time to draw the line for those things. And I think I want to like talk about that as a parent as well. When I was doing one workshop, there was talk about, you know, having to say no to your children and how some parents really struggle with because you want to be the provider. You want to be there for them. You want to be able when they have a battle to help them move through it. And we had discussions about sometimes you have to say no and they have to understand how to do it themselves because you want to set your child up for a life that once you're gone, they're able to process these battles without you there. And that was something that really hit home because my mom and dad, I was privileged growing up, and I rarely heard the word no. And especially when it came to things around money. Once my mom died, that money stopped coming in. And my dad wanted to continue giving the way that I was used to because he wanted to protect me from the world in those ways. And that was a really hard thing to go through because at one point the money stopped. The money just we didn't have anymore anymore. And then that's when he was like, Okay, I just don't have any more. This is it. Trying to process, okay, how do I now provide for myself the way that I was never taught growing up? And that was a really big process that I still learn today because I'm very splurged with money, just because that's something that I was never taught. I never was taught the value of a dollar and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Behaviors that are like just ingrained in you. You don't know any different, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Right. So it's going back to the basics of understanding how to save, how to budget, how to do these things that I wasn't taught because in his mind, I want to protect you. Yeah, I want you to feel safe. I want to do what I can to make sure that you have a good life, and now I just don't life comes and now I don't have that anymore, and having to deal with it on that sense. And that's just my personal situation, right? Like that was my experience. And there's so many other ways of wisdom that he's taught me that is I've become this strong, powerful, independent woman. But I think as a parent, it's very integral to think about when can you show them the boundaries that will help them move forward in their life? That when things come up that they need to understand how to deal with, that they feel like they have the tools and the trust in themselves that they can stand up to them at themselves.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

It's a gift. It is. It and can also be a curse, because I think I'm on the opposite of I don't have a problem saying no. And I look back, it's my upbringing. My dad had very hard lines in the sand with where he just like at work, especially in the workplace, I think of it that way, and personally, but he he could say no like that. And so I took that, and it got to the point though where the pendulum swung on the other side of it. So in the corporate world, or in it, I I guess when I first started that job in '97, I remember seeing like things, because if you you teach people how to treat you, and I remember seeing like right out of the chute, like, this isn't gonna happen, this isn't gonna go down this way. So I set those lines or put those lines in the sand, but it was all I was too stringent though. And I look back, I would be like, Nope, nope. This is you know the rules, like you don't, this is taking advantage of me, and I'm not doing it. And I think like you can be too hard with that.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Where you have you just say no to things, and even in life, like it, and it took me meeting my wife Tammy, where like personally, like she was very, I mean, I'm family-oriented, and her family is all here, so it was like several times in the week we're all getting together, and I'd have to be like, I can't do this. So I would put like, no, I can't. I can maybe see them once, and it's nothing about against them. It was like emotionally, I'm like, I don't think I have anything in my tank. So I would put these lines in the sand, and it was it was hard in the relationship. And it took me probably the the last three years where I'm like, you know what, I'm saying yes more often. So it's we it can really be a curse too to, I mean, there's that again, balance exactly trying to find that alignment of when to say no right and when to say yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

And when to not let, you know, idea of that boundary, right, like exceed too much or saying yes so much that it's implementing. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, yeah, what you said with finding the alignment, having the choice when understanding what feels right, comfortable, and truly is going to support you and your quality of life in that sense.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Well, I think there's this underlying fear too, that sometimes, especially in the corporate world or or when you're trying to any profession, there's this fear that if I say no, I may not excel, I may not grow into that. New role that I'm that I perceive as being the dream, right? Or if I say no to this opportunity, another one might not come up like this, right? And so there's that that alignment, that balance as well, too. That I'm like, there's this concept of you hear people like say yes to everything. So you have all the opportunities in the world, and it's like, ah, it's this again balance. Maybe it's the Libra coming out again, or I'm like, when do I say no? When do I say yes? At the same time, I think when it comes down to it, and and I love what you're saying because it's almost like you have to go internally. Like it's nothing externally that will ever validate or answer that right question for you. But if in your heart and your body and your soul, you're like, I am just becoming a shell of a person because I'm saying yes, it might be time to like let off the throttle a little bit and just kind of see where life takes you because that next no might be the best thing that actually worked out for you. True. Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Or the flip side, if you keep saying no, you could be, because I felt like towards, you know, like a few years ago, like I need to let more people in. I was saying no too much to a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

But you added you started saying yes to the things that fed your soul. Right. Yep. And you were you were saying no to those things that were actually causing grief and anxiety. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

And I think what I try and teach people is that you it's having the autonomy to be able to choose your yes or your no and not feeling like you have to say no or you have to say yes. The guilt that comes with some of those and the control, like the fear, the fear and the guilt that can control your actions. Having that actual autonomy of having the awareness, really understanding your emotions and what is going to benefit your quality of life and your happiness, and using that to guide you to create the decision that you make and the action that you create from it is super important.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

So, Veronica, what about I I joke, I'm a recovering people pleaser. I like this is how I I I guess dealt with situations when I was younger. This is how I kept the peace and stuff in situations. Do you have any advice or tips for people that are like myself that are just like wanting everybody to be okay all of the time?

SPEAKER_00 24:16

When you want everybody else to be okay all the time, it takes away the attention on yourself. And I think for recovering and people pleasers in general, there is this idea that you cannot be selfish. And I would say my advice would be to be a little bit more selfish and not in the way that's a negative connotation. Because when you start thinking about yourself more, that's when you can start caring about your needs more. When you can care about your needs more, that's how you actually show up for others better. Instead of oh, I need to be here to support them and I need to do all of this and I need to go to all these things because if I don't, then I'm a bad friend or I'm a bad parent or I'm a bad person or a bad employee. When you take a second to start thinking more about yourself, how can I take care of my needs in this moment, then you're able to be there in the situations that you choose more present, more engaged. And I think that's one of the bigger takeaways that I would say is let yourself be a little bit selfish. When you can take care of yourself in that type of sense, you are not showing up to these things not present, burnt out, having resentment. Oh gosh, I gotta do this because that's means I'm a good person or a good friend or a good parent. But it's actually this is too much for me, and I'm not actually there the way that you want to be.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Boy, and what you're saying, that it hits so close to home. So my wife, Tammy, she is um, she was diagnosed at 50, so four years ago with early onset Parkinson's. She is also a recovering people pleaser, and she'll she'll be the first one to admit it. She's gotten a lot better over the years, but even like, yeah, so even before the diagnosis, she was getting better at it. But now it's forced her because of stress, anxiety, and just being tired, it act exasperates the symptoms. Right. So she is more cognizant of and just better at implementing no. And it's and it's cool to see because for years I'd be like, you know, she'd be some stress out about something, or I gotta do this. And I'm like, you can always say no. Yeah. She's like, I know, but it's this, or it's my my family, or I'm like, you can always say no, but now she's seeing it. So when she does say no, because if not, physically the symptoms ramp up for the day, or it might take her a couple of days to kind of get, you know, to balance it out where she's feeling okay. Yeah, that's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Well, and you were the one that helped me out the most recently because I would constantly validate why I'm saying no. Now I'm justifying everything. Hey, can you come pick me up from the airport? And I'm like busy doing something, or or something like that. And I'd be like, uh no, but now I have to explain to you why I'm saying no. And you'd be like, You you don't have to explain to anybody anything. Yeah, like you just say no, and that's it. You don't have to tell them why or anything. And so I'm getting much better at that. I still catch myself. I'm like, no, I actually and then I'm like, no, I just can't do it. Right. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

And see, I even said sorry after that. Did you hear that? You're in that sorry, and it's like, no, I'm not sorry.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

I'm not sorry anymore. You know, I had a boss years ago, I remember saying exactly that to him, but in almost in and I look back and I could have probably softened it up a bit, but he was saying, you know, I I need you to do this thing on on Saturday. And I said, dude, I I I can't. Well, why? Why can't you? And I just said to him, dude, I don't owe you an explanation. It's none of your business. If I don't want to do it, that's reason enough. And I said that to him. Oh my gosh, I love that. But I was like, I was trying because he was notorious for it. And I was trying to set boundaries. And again, now as I've gotten older, I could have had a softer approach with it. I was kind of a you know, kind of a dick when I said it.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

And I think when you are able to stand up for yourself like that, people who at one time thought that they could get what they want from you, there's a level of respect that starts increasing when they realize that they can't. Um, I work with a woman that she had a brain aneurysm because she burnt herself out from always being there for people.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

And through working with her after the fact, right, she had real she had taken a step back from saying yes all the time. But when I met her, it was creeping up again, you know, going back into like I would almost say like relapsing into the old habits that are ingrained. And through that, there was this man that was just incessantly trying to have an appointment with her when she just didn't have the time to do it. And saying no, and he just kept pushing and pushing and pushing to the point where she said yes. And she was like, you know what? I'm gonna meet with him and I'm gonna give him a piece of my mind and tell him, like, this is so inappropriate, X, Y, and Z. And I was like, No, don't do that. Yeah, this is why. When you're forceful with him, you're giving him ammo to now use against you and your reputation.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

What you do is just take back your yes, which is what I teach as well. You can say yes, realize that you don't want to say yes, and you can still take it back. It's okay. That's just part of being human. And so I told her, you're gonna email him, and all you're gonna say is, apologies for the inconvenience. I do not have that availability anymore. And then her name.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

And that's it. And that's it. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, no explanation. Because when you start explaining yourself, that turns into negotiation. Now you're giving them ammo of, oh, well, I don't think that's good enough of an explanation for you to say no to this. Or, well, why don't we just, you know, blend the lines and work our way around it. When you just say no, that's it.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

These are people that don't know what they they if they do know about boundaries, they don't care about them.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

You know what I mean? These are people that's how they go about in life in life, is just walking all over people.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

And there's talk now of like, oh, her availability is way more limited than it used to be. And through that, people are wanting to meet with her even more now. So it's almost like now her perceived value has gone up is increased. So now her time is more expensive because she's not letting whoever come into their life and take what they want. And that goes back into your worth, right? Like you are worth deciding who you bring in to your life and who you say yes to and having that choice because your time, your energy, your expertise is really valuable.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

And once you start having those boundaries, people see it more too.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

That's a different form of compensation compensation, right? And have the boundaries and the and the and the time. Can't even put a price on that.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Time is the compensation. That's the biggest one that we talk about. Sometimes when um some kind of situation is just looming in your head, the actual cost of that thought, that issue is exponentially higher now because it's just ruminating, keeps going and going and going. Right. Yeah, that's a oh man, time is the gift. It's so valuable. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

And it's about being being more present, like you said, not ruminating, being more present in your life because you're not taking the time to ruminate over these things anymore that you're that you didn't actually want to do because you said yes. Now you're freeing up that time and space in your life to focus on the things that matter more to you. And that is like such an awesome feeling. That's cool. Such a quality, you know, feeling to have.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Well, in in life, you have pretty much no control, zero control over most of things in life. But that is one thing you have control over, and that is how you react and how you respond and and saying yes or no to things.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

And I think it's it's the fact of when people walk on you and people want so much of you, and you put up that boundary. I think the biggest part is taking away accessibility to you. If you want to treat me this way, if you want to think that you can get whatever you want from me, then you don't get access to me anymore. And I think in general, everybody should learn that when people treat you in such a way that once you start putting up boundaries and they try and force through it, then you don't have access anymore. Because you are valuable, you are worthy, you are so worthy that when people want to treat you that way, they are not allowed access to you anymore.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

And you have that choice to not let them and you're worth not having access to all the time.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Absolutely, absolutely that's something like a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

I think when you just get beat down and down and down, you just start viewing yourself as you aren't worth setting up those boundaries. You are not worth saying no to these people and limiting the access.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

And that's not the truth. It's not the truth.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

And what's tied into that is your own self-love. And I think that's a big one when it comes to that of always letting people access you. Tying hand in hand with your worth is love yourself enough to know that you are worthy to put up that boundary. And that's a big thing, is is finding that self-love, finding that self-respect.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

Even with your kids. I'm thinking about what you're saying, and and setting boundaries with your kids. Or you have like kids that don't have any boundaries with their parents and they're just coming, you know, you the parents doing something and the kids come in, and then it's like, okay, I gotta drop everything for him or her. It's like if you can teach them that way, like, look, we're gonna do something in a little bit, but you know, mom is doing this or I'm doing this, and then when we're done, then we'll do the thing. But you don't have just carte blanche to come in, right? Or if I'm getting ready to go on a hike, I'll see you in a couple hours, and then we'll do our thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

And that's directly teaching them self-love and self-respect because this is my time for me right now.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Thank you, but in a second, you know.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

I don't love you any less. Right. It's I still love you, but I have to like you say, I gotta love myself here so I can be a better dad.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Right. And it's monkey see, monkey do, right? You're teaching them through that. Like when people do that to them, it's like, oh, right, nope, this is my time for myself, and I will be there for you. That's my choice. What a gift that is.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

And what you two are just saying there too. And it's not only when mom and dad are being productive or bringing in income to the family, when mom and dad are taking a moment. Yeah. You know, with the boys, we set it up like we do breath work sessions almost every single day, Katie and I. And it'll be in the afternoon. The boys know if they hear Wim Hof saying, Fool in, let it go. Like mom and dad are not available. You can come totally, you can come in, you can lay on the floor or on the bed, you can do the breathing with us or be quiet, but you don't need to bother us with the question of can I have a snack in that moment or can I go do X, Y, and Z. Yeah. It's like we are not available for that in this moment. Yeah. And it's 15 minutes. Yeah. Like, like get over it. Yeah. And we deserve this 15 minutes, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

So And those are those ink, like, and even the small batches, right? That's um, you're teaching them that tolerance over small incremental steps, you know. It doesn't, it's not it's never that big thing, right? Like, or it doesn't have to be that big experience that teaches them this lesson. It's the small ones that are building those building blocks.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

And it's just empowering to to to be able to put a line in the sand, just to have those boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

So going back to your situation, was it tough for you to like stand up for yourself? Sounds like, you know, emotionally and physically it was taking a toll on you, and you needed to do something for self-preservation. Was that was that hard?

SPEAKER_00 35:53

I think it's a it was a weird battle, right? Because I think in general, the way that I was brought up was, you know, I'm very adamant about my needs, my wants. I'm very vocal about those things. And then I got into this position where it was like, you need to act this way to succeed. And then through that, you know, you're there five days a week. I was there 10 hours, like many days. And that is habit formation. So now I'm creating these neurons in my brain that are different from what I grew up with. And I'm in this environment consistently that's creating these patterns of overextend yourself, be this way. And if you don't, you're gonna not succeed. So it was like this weird battle, like torn in myself of you have to be this way to succeed, but everything in your body is telling you stand up from the way that you were taught, show up for yourself the way that you deserve. And I gave, I gave my bosses hell and like they I gave them hell all the time. And there was this battle of like, I always want to succeed. I mean, I was doing the I'm sending emails out at four in the morning. They know that I'm working really hard to be good enough in their eyes. But then they say things and I'm like, well, why is it that way? I need to understand. Or can you explain that for me? Constant wise. And it's like, why are you asking so much? You know, and I'm like, because I need to know to grow.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

So I'm vocalizing it. These are my needs. But then at the end of the day, it's like now I'm going home and I'm like, oh, I should have done things these ways, or I shouldn't have spoken up in that way. And it's this rumination. So it was like constant conflict in my head of you know you shouldn't be doing these things, or you know you should be standing up for yourself in these ways, but also if you don't, you're gonna get fired or you're not gonna be good enough, or you're not a good leader. From their perspective, right, of overextending, I wasn't great because I always questioned. I did put up boundaries. I like to see it from the worth of the people that worked beneath me. When they showed up to work, they were really happy. If I had a sick day, they were really sad when I wasn't there, you know, because it's not like I was always doing things for them. I gave them the tools to succeed. And I said, whenever you have questions or need guidance or need support, come to me. I'm there for you. Right. And even the times that I couldn't support them in the moment, especially festival operations when we're like packed house and it's crazy, and they're like, hey, I need you for this. And I'm like, no, I can't right now. And they felt, okay, she cares so much for me. I know that right now she can't be there for me. I respect that because I know that she works really hard and I'm gonna do what I can in this moment to continue to prevail and have that resiliency in a sense.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

And that was like the deepest gratitude that I felt for at that role. And when I was fired, it wasn't the, it wasn't the I failed in the sense of my managerial position. It was I failed the people that were beneath me because those are the people that I cared more about. I didn't give a shit about like where I was going or in my mind, it was less of that success. And it was more of, you know, helping these people understand how to navigate and how to be successful for themselves and support them in those ways.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

So are you seeing in your life now, like going back to the self-worth productivity? Are you kind of seeing that? Are you struggling with that or seeing that you're you know that your self-worth isn't attached to the productivity?

SPEAKER_00 39:13

I think it is a natural thing to feel that way. Like we talked about before, like your worth, it's like this instinctual thing that we've now also had with society made your worth based off productivity. So to say that I don't feel that way would be wrong, right? Like I definitely have that. And it's understanding that those emotions come in and you let them go, right? Like those are just when you're able to let those emotions flow, that's just being a human being. Say you have dark thoughts, say you're an addict and you have a craving. These are just emotions or thoughts coming in, and knowing that that doesn't define who you are, doesn't control you, and letting it go and remembering and having that awareness, like, oh, this is just a a thought, like, oh, I'm programmed this way, but I'm gonna move through it and then continue forward because I do know at the end of the day that I am more than this. I think in the beginning it was difficult when I started my business unprogramming myself because I I was at my job and then I spent four months playing in Costa Rica. And then I was like, okay, like back to work. And it's like, okay, don't take that shit with you. Right. Don't take that shit with you.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

Easier said than done. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

It's easier said than done. But it's over the repetition and the habits, surrounding myself from very powerful people talking about these things with them and them saying, Oh, that's normal. Like you're gonna have these worthy feelings and just let that shit go, you know.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

And it's the awareness, it's like you to really drill that point at just being aware, and we talk about that a lot. That is like half the battle with a lot of stuff in life, is just being aware of, okay, why am I feeling this way?

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Or this thought. Right. And then maybe even stripping that down, kind of peeling it back, going, where is it coming from?

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

And a lot of the time it's not even coming from the situation that you're in. It's some bullshit from childhood.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Exactly. And that's what my program and the workshops that I bring to the table. That's the whole thing that we talk about. We talk about the awareness, right? Understand what's going on. Okay, I'm having this thought. Now pausing, pause, take a pause, and in the sense like when you have an expectation or an ask of you. So you are have awareness of it, but then you can pause instead of reacting immediately to it and think, okay, what's my nervous system saying right now? Why am I feeling this way? Why do I feel this like sometimes like what is these feelings and why is this happening? Okay, pause, take a step back. What's the truth here? Am I conditioned to feel this way? Or am I actually doing something that's causing this? Being able to decipher that with your awareness, then after that, think about your values, right? What are my needs, my priorities? Who am I as a person? Oh, I am worth it. Is it just a dark thought that I have? Why am I worth it? Because I have trust in myself that I'm gonna succeed, that I do the steps. Even some days, even if it's not enough that day, right? These are still steps that I'm taking. Sometimes if I'm resting, thinking that I'm not doing enough because I'm resting, oh, right, rest is work because I'm just charging my body.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

And reminding myself that I'm charging my body so that I can succeed the way that I want to, so that I can be a good person, a good parent, a good friend, a good employee, business owner, really honing that down and then making your action next based off of that. Okay, letting it go and continuing forward.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

So I think about this because you two have some similarities in regard with what happened from your corporate positions to now navigating both of your own paths. I mean, you're both doing your own entrepreneurial experience and growing that way. For the listener that's listening right now, that's in a similar boat. What is one maybe truth or takeaway you can say about managing that fear, managing that doubt through those first few months that might help guide them along in the journey? Because that's when it's most fresh, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:01

I like to say it's not that serious. Whenever I have this like intake of emotion, it is not that serious. I think we put so much pressure on ourselves to perform in any way, enough pressure to be good enough, to do enough, it's not that serious. I'm literally a human being having a human experience. I'm just trying to figure it out like everybody else is, and that is enough.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

And I think taking the time to because we've just recently been talking about this, and that is I question when I go into something or I commit to something, I say yes to something. Why am I doing that? What what is the what what's driving it? Is it something that I'm trying to prove something, or is it something that I feel like this is my purpose? Right. You know what I mean? So I'm I'm much more intentional now after what had happened, you know, the dust settled, and going, okay, me moving forward, me saying yes to things. What's driving it?

SPEAKER_00 44:00

And you can tell the difference in the feeling of it too, right? Like when it is a purposeful, like deeper like feeling, that's like a gut core, like you feel that almost like deep in your chest type of thing. Yeah. Compared to when it's something that you don't really align with. It's almost like a visceral. Like because it's your brain trying to bring you back to what you're used to, right? It's like go back to homeostasis, go back to what you know. And there's a different feeling from like this feels right. Like I should be doing this because this feels instinctually like this aligns.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. We talk a lot about that. I mean, obviously, emotional intelligence is one thing that we preach a ton on the show. Because to your point earlier, men and women both are emotional creatures. We just have been told men are only allowed to identify with two emotions. It's either you're stoic or you're angry. And that's okay in society. We're feeling everything else. Yeah. Um, when it comes to that, I call it the full body yes, because it can just really feel like almost a vibration. When I have those feelings, and I didn't couldn't correlate or understand where this was going before. But when your body is saying that, take a moment and jot that thing down, either in your phone or physically like write it out. Yeah. Because that is a whole different level of where you should be navigating or going to. Right. That's not just your brain, this prefrontal cortex that's processing it out. Yeah. This is like intuition. Yeah, this is aligning more with your intuition has been that's a challenging and hard thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

I love what that you said, like write it down. Yeah. Because honestly, and I know it's like maybe a little cliche, but journaling, writing down your thoughts, especially when not only to look back at it and to like reevaluate it later, but when you journal like that, you are inherently creating strong neurons in your brain that are helping support you and move you forward. And I mean, I used to get preached this all the time, like journal, you should be journaling. Why aren't you journaling? Like was that from family or that was from good friends who journals, from therapists. They're like, you have all these thoughts. You need to get that down on a piece of paper. It's gonna make your life a lot easier. Like really writing, writing it down is gonna make it easier. Like I was just like, that's a load of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

But I need to do more of it because I know you do it, and I and I do sometimes, but I need to get better at it. I need to get just kind of build that muscle.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

I just started, I would say, like right around the time that I got fired.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

And the amount that just writing down what your thoughts are, the way that benefits your life and your quality of life, because you're getting it out of your head, you know. And even when it's good thoughts, you're just expressing yourself, letting yourself have a safe space, a journal, just to express what your emotions are. Oh my gosh, it does wonders, wonders to you.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

I love it. You acknowledge it, whether it's good or bad. Like you're you're putting it down.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Remember how I was saying the clap out. So I I'm horrible at goodbyes. They just wreck me. Yeah. Right. And it comes from his childhood. Yeah, it comes from his childhood. There's a story there, but yeah. Um so when I say, when I'm in a situation where something's ending, and this could be like friends, family, like so. My kid, well, my one son was leaving fifth grade. This was his last last Friday, was his last day of fifth grade. And the thought of him not being in elementary anymore started really getting me. And they do a clap out at the end, and I'm like, shit. I'm like, I'm gonna be the guy there, like with glasses on, like, and the second it's over, I'm gonna have to bounce. Like I talked about that. I journaled before going to the event, and I started writing all these things to him, like why I'm so proud and the moments. Dude, at the event, it didn't even hit me. How about that? Because I think I had gotten it out in almost of these are why maybe that chapter ending could be sad, but look how much you've grown. Look how much like why I'm proud of you because of like all these things that you've done. Nothing to do with me, what you've done. So now I get to be in this moment with you, and I'm not in this moment with my old self.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 48:21

It's like that metacognition, I think is what they call it, where you're like whatever the thought is or the feeling, you're in it, you're breaking it down as it's happening. And I guess journaling would make it that much more concrete, you know?

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yeah, just getting it out of your brain and on a piece of paper, just expressing yourself. That's really what it is, right? It's expressing yourself, and that's such a thing that like I love empowering, you know, men specifically to feel safe and comfortable being able to express yourself. You have those thoughts just like women do, and being feeling safe to be able to express it because it's you're worth it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

We talk about vulnerability, and there's nothing better than vulnerability, like with anybody. Even if it's a stranger, you think about that. Like if you're just of course you're not pouring out your purse, the stranger, but I mean if you connect at a small level with somebody and you're just being vulnerable, that the connection that comes with that, the deep connection, yeah, it's incredible.

unknown 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

My partner, we've been together for almost a year now. He is that almost a year, he met me around so it was in July. So yeah, almost a year. And he went through the whole process of me being fired and stuff like that and supporting me through it. Um, but I want to talk to him because I want to talk about him because he, when I met him, he was not an emotional person at all. And he's never felt safe to express his emotions. And I think through these boundary settings, it's always been like he was someone that was always like, yes, whatever you want, I'm happy to be with you. You make me feel safe. And I started recognizing that he would do those things. And I was like, okay, I know you're just here for the ride because you just this is fun, right? And but like, what do you feel about this though? Or like say we have an adventure planned, and I'm like, okay, well, what do you want to do next? And giving him the choice as well, not just saying yes to, you know, me doing what I want to do and him just being happy to be there, but also knowing that you also have a choice too, and I want to know what what you like to do, and being able to know that our next steps can be whatever you have planned, you know, and then he plans thing. It's like the most fun thing ever. And I was like, all right, let's go have a date tomorrow. And like, I just want you to plan everything and don't, I don't want to know about any of it. And then we did like this like 12-mile waterfall hike, like down an American fork, and it was like the coolest thing ever. And we were like going through the waterfalls, and I'm like, he was so happy too. And I'm like, just being able to give him that empowerment to express himself and permission, yes, and especially when hard times come right, and you know, like, okay, and like now we're like bickering over something, but giving you the space to be able to express yourself and how you feel, and like just cheering him on when he's like, Yeah, and I don't like this for these reasons. And I'm like, hell yeah, you don't like awesome. It just feels really good. I don't know why I just felt like I need to talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

No, that's what this is all about. So, Veronica, you are obviously you're building your business. You know, there's amazing networking things that you have in the works right now. What is something that you really like to offer that maybe a listener could be like, I would benefit from coming and working one-on-one with Veronica or coming to one of your networking events?

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Yeah. So my next event actually is with Katie, um, your wife, here at Kiln on July 9th. I think it's either July 8th or July 9th, we're gonna secure down the date.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

And it is specifically talking about work-life balance and your quality of life. And a lot of the topics that we talked about today will be there. And I encourage everybody to attend. And it's through Ember Woman, which is specifically for women, but I want everyone here to know that as a man, you are absolutely welcome to be there. And I would love for you to be there and listen to what we're going to discuss because you are worth being there and hearing this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. That's so cool. We'll put all the information within the podcast description. Yeah, absolutely. Great conversation. I'm glad that we made the connection.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

And if you want to talk to me more, my Instagram is how to be authentic. And I would love for you to just drop into my DMs and let's just discuss whatever you're going through that resonates with what we've discussed today. I love just connecting with people and helping empower people.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

This is a great conversation. It was awesome. Thank you, Veronica, for coming out today.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

And make sure to check out the Dadhood Podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Yeah, yeah.