Rest- More Than Sleep

In this episode of The Human Story, brought to you by Yoked Media we slow down to explore a forgotten human need—rest. More than just sleep, rest is a radical act of self-care, resistance, and spiritual alignment. Join Lincoln and Shaamiela as they uncover the layers of physical, emotional, and spiritual rest, and how intentional pausing helps us reconnect with ourselves, our stories, and our purpose.

Together, we reflect on cultural attitudes toward rest and why reclaiming rest is essential to healing and growth. Whether you're feeling overwhelmed, burnt out, or simply curious this conversation invites you to exhale and lean into stillness.

💛 Listen now, and remember: your story needs space to breathe.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all-encompassing human experience.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

This is brought to you by Yolk Media. Welcome to another episode of the Human Story. My name is Lincoln.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Hi, I'm Shamila. Welcome back. And it's January

SPEAKER_00 0:33

2025.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

If

SPEAKER_00 0:34

you don't know, there's a saying in South Africa, January. And I guess it explains why it's been a long December, January. But yeah, just, you know, Shami, I've been outside a bit earlier, so that you know, sort of placement-wise. We're in Cape Town at the waterfront. It's very festive here. There's people playing like a lot of music outside. And you can kind of see that people are at a good holiday. Actually, very topical in what you're speaking about today. But it seems like people are well-rested on that point. I mean, how was your holiday period?

SPEAKER_03 1:00

It was very restful.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Good.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

And I'm not just saying that. It was really very restful because, well, we'll get into this as we have the conversation, but because I actually prioritized it and ended up kind of doing a lot of nothing.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

And then also activity. It was a lot of fun, but it was amazing. And I agree with you that that sort of That festive energy.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

You know, that's so alive in Cape Town. I think it often is all the time. But there's something about, obviously, December and January and summer.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yes. You know, in

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Cape Town. That's just, yeah, I think we all just have this almost invisible thread that connects us as South Africans.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

And we're just having fun. And, you know, everybody just understands it doesn't matter what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Acting strange in public. They get it. What's the saying? Okay, we can't say that on you.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

We can't say that on you. I'm Zanzi for sure.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

We can't say that on you, but

SPEAKER_00 2:04

yeah. And also on that topic, I don't know if you heard, recently this week I saw a publication, South Africa, but Cape Town more so, was voted the number one city in the world.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

I'm not sure what the criteria is. I've probably got to do with eating culture, diversity, and obviously, you know, in terms of, well, for tourists in terms of them coming here, how far their money goes to actually enjoy some of what we have. But it's great. I think, I mean, we testament to that. I mean, this is so much to do in Cape Town.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

It is. And also just that there's so many places where you can find connection.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

You know, not just to other people, but also just to yourself. And the beauty of Cape Town is just breathtaking.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

And so that, so like, it doesn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure that there's, that Cape Town's won that award before.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, we've been in the top, I think the top 10 cities in the world before, like I think once we came number three, but we actually been voted the top city in the world. And I mean, if we look at the rich diversity, it's Africa in general, but just Cape Town more per se, how many tourists flock here. And if I just look outside today, I mean, if I see what's happening, I mean, we went earlier, we were somewhere as well. And I could literally see tourists from, you know, you hear the accents from every single country. And it's so alive with so much culture here, you know, so it's not surprising to either South Africa or Cape Town more has won that award

SPEAKER_03 3:23

no it's not surprising but we've all returned to work now

SPEAKER_00 3:26

yes

SPEAKER_03 3:29

you know we're not our days are now going to be you know divided between taking some time off and resting and actually prioritizing that but also getting back

SPEAKER_00 3:39

into

SPEAKER_03 3:40

the swing of things with work and while other people still tour our city.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

And flock to the beach,

SPEAKER_00 3:46

you know. And just jam our traffics, but that's fine. We appreciate you coming here. We do. And also, I think, when is it not appropriate to say, like, wish people well for the new year anymore? Compliments of the season. Compliments of the season.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

I think that extends well into January.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Okay, because after the first week back, is it still compliments?

UNKNOWN 4:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

That's a good question. Because people are so into it. But yeah, we're glad to be back, obviously. And obviously, you know, we've got a big year ahead.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

We do. I mean, this is just such an exciting time. And yeah, I'm very excited, you know, for us to finally bring this to the world. We spent most of 2024 breathing life into this and speaking life into it. You know, and here we are on the other side of that. So that's very exciting.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

I think one question I want to ask you before we preempt in today's topic. If you had to prioritize one form of rest for yourself for this year, what would that be? I know it sounds cliche, but I mean, we're on the topic today. I

SPEAKER_03 4:48

think it's probably going to be what I normally do, which is to spend time in nature. Awesome. Yeah, it's the most replenishing for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

And for you.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

I think it's for me more about strategies around about that, to put things in place like boundaries in certain aspects of my life. So yes, the actual practice of rest is important, but I think it's also about once I get into the swing of things, especially at work in that setting, that I'm able to put the necessary boundaries before we start getting hectically busy again, that I can actually put that in place to make sure that I protect my spaces, that I can have rest. I think that's the most important thing for me. All

SPEAKER_03 5:29

very relevant.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Just to say to our listeners that at the end of 2024, we came in for our last recording and we were meant to record rest. So that's our topic for today. We're going to talk about rest, why we rest, and then just, you know, how we understand it. But we got here at the end of 2024 and we finished with the one topic and we both looked at each other and went, I think we need to do this next year.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

And it was funny. And I said to Lincoln, I think we need to go rest before

SPEAKER_00 6:03

we talk about

SPEAKER_03 6:03

it. Because by then we were, you know, I think it was like well into December.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yes, it was. I think the 16th, the 18th of December. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

And by then I think we were both teetering towards kind of, can we actually just switch off? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

We're both obviously very committed to get content done for when we obviously launch. But I think, you know, I think for, especially for myself and I know Sean and Latusha will speak for herself. But I think the most important part about doing this podcast together is about being authentic. We don't want to sit here and sit behind a microphone and literally, you know, tell people what they could do to help them with certain aspects of their life. And then we actually don't practice it ourselves. So I guess authenticity is something big that we would like to kind of sort of do from this platform. And therefore, yeah, I mean, we're very excited about what's to come this year.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

We are. So maybe let's begin by asking, Just a general question of why do we rest?

SPEAKER_00 7:00

That's a very, very interesting question and so funny because I randomly asked, I was speaking to a couple of people in the week, just trying this topic around. And I think it's quite the obvious one that you get. Like you'll ask a person like, what does rest entail? What does it mean for you? And most people go like, do you speak about sleeping? No, you mean sleeping. Now, I mean, we know that's a form of rest. And I'm sure, Sharmilee, in your practice and your everyday life when you speak to patients, if you had to bring up a topic, I think the general layperson would kind of go to that and go like, do you mean I need to have better sleep practices in place? Do you need to go to bed earlier? So yes, that is definitely one component, but that's only one small component So, I mean, if I think about rest in terms of that, I think that is important. I know for myself, if I rest well, meaning a good night's sleep per se, more on the physical part, that I generally function better the next day. And there's obviously, there's physiological reasons for that. We'll get into that a bit later. But for me, I know I'm just generally a better person if I sleep well. I don't know about you. I

SPEAKER_03 8:02

would say, if I don't sleep, I just, yeah, I'm not... I'm not the optimistic me. I tend to be. I mean, I get moody. I get really, really moody. And it's interesting. It's generally, for most people, it's lack of sleep. And if they haven't eaten,

SPEAKER_00 8:18

it's

SPEAKER_03 8:19

really when you meet.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Angry. You know,

SPEAKER_03 8:22

exactly. You meet their shadow. You know, I have like an intimate experience with it. But I mean, yeah, I'm just thinking about how Again, the culture that we live in is very much, it is supposedly prioritized in the wellness industry, particularly sleep. Sleep's obviously gotten a lot of coverage. And there's been a lot of books actually released in the last couple of years around why we sleep and why that's necessary. And that's amazing. And I have definitely myself noticed, you know, if I prioritize sleep, what that does for me and what it does for the rest of the day. But there's something about... So obviously if we're sleeping, I mean, essentially what we do is that we go from the active state, right? Which is usually like the active, busy, sympathetic state. And parasympathetic comes on board when you sleep, rest and digest. Quite literally, there's a name for it from the scientific perspective. And all of these different mechanisms that occur in the body and why we need it. And so essentially sleep is really so much of that. Okay. And that's so interesting to me because even when you think about sleep, absolutely, we've got to sleep and be functional,

SPEAKER_01 10:03

you

SPEAKER_03 10:03

know, and come to our day and to our work and to our families as whole beings. And so that's really a big part of it. But she just speaks about like, you know, she just simply, she posted one day and said, You know, we're not resting so that we can recharge and be ready for this.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

You

SPEAKER_03 10:23

know what I mean? Like fill up your tank. What's the next task coming in? Exactly. It's not about that. It's actually just like, you know, guess what? It's your human right

SPEAKER_01 10:31

to rest.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

It's actually such a big part of your, the component of, there's a big component of that being just human. Yes, I love that. Just to go between activity and active activity. and movement to rest and restoration.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Restoration, I love that. It actually brings me back just on a more spiritual level. If I think about in Christianity, you know that they say that God made the world in six days and the seventh day he rested. He didn't rest because he was tired, because the ultimate being, he rested to show the importance of rest.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

And so I love that what you just said now. So it resonates a lot with me. We shouldn't rest so that we can be charged for the next day. tasks at hand that, you know, society throws upon us, you know, the hustle grind culture that we spoke about. But I mean, for me, it's a clear indication. I mean, if that was set, from that aspect, it's important for us to realize that that's actually an important component in our human existence. Yeah. For reflection, like you say, for restoration. And I mean, so much happens on a cellular level too, I mean, you know, with regards to the body recuperating. Yeah. And then also for decision making, like your frontal cortex, the lobe. So decision making, resilience, that type of stuff. So for me, I mean, By that, I love the part that you mentioned. When you rest, it should be to actually rest so that you can live in the present moment. I don't know if you find, Shami, but I find many a times when I'm in that sympathetic state, my nervous system, and I'm literally in survival mode, that I'm not the nicest person to you. So sometimes, generally, when I wouldn't respond or react to someone, in that state, I'm would generally maybe snap at someone. So I think it's quite important for us to realize how important actually rest is for us to just be better human beings without going too deep into the physiological and stuff. And it really controls our moods. You've got a lot of cortisol going on your body. So yeah, I love what you just said now. Resting for the sake of being in a restful state.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Absolutely, just resting. That there isn't a goal.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

You know, with your rest. I do think sometimes we have to do that. I think sometimes we have to rest. You know, for example, there may be something that may be coming up. Yeah. You know, if that's a project you're launching or… I don't know, like maybe your family is about to expand or whatever. And so you may then prioritize rest in a different way as a way to kind of prepare for that. And again, nothing wrong with any of those things, but it's just for us to kind of shake up our understanding of why it is that we rest and what that's about. And so one of the other things that I've become quite dependent on with my sleep is, and I remember actively thinking about this the other day after I saw my therapist because we were talking about something quite important and she was naming sort of a shift that she's seen that i've made and and i thought yeah i'm looking forward to sleep because also with sleep there's integration

SPEAKER_00 13:31

yes

SPEAKER_03 13:32

right yeah an integration of obviously subconscious and conscious mind and so everything that we spoke about and sort of came to the surface i'm kind of In sleep, intending for that to land where it needs to land. And so we experience integration in sleep

SPEAKER_00 13:50

as well.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

And so now the way that I look at that is to say, I mean, integration happens throughout and sleep is one way that that happens. But I kind of look forward to it and I go, okay, I wonder what it will feel like or be like on the other side of this when I wake up.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Having had all of this integrated.

UNKNOWN 14:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I wish I had that much clarity, I could say, in this stage of life as you do with regards to sleep. I'm a bit on the opposite spectrum at this stage of life, but I can fully comprehend that. And that's a lovely state to actually be in if you can look forward to that because there's so much clarity on that, which I love. For me at the time when I get to bed at night, honestly, I'm just so tired that I literally just fall asleep and pass out at this stage of my life. But I'm grateful because, you know, the busyness in my life on other aspects and not talking about grind culture and just family commitments and, you know, just the general routine that we have is that I generally don't I do sleep a lot better now having a family than when I was single and had some of my own mental health struggles. So it's not that it's a distraction, my family, but I think it's given me purpose. So I think for people, rest also signifies different things to different people. And that is why I think it's so important today to speak about this topic because generally the layperson would think that rest is just sleep. And I think what we're trying to sort of bring across today is that there's many forms of rest. So the first one we mentioned was just normally the physical rest part component. But we'd love to touch on other aspects of rest. And I know, Shami, you've had sort of your own dealings with rest too. What are some of the other ones that are really core components that really help us?

SPEAKER_03 15:34

So on the physical rest and that aspect, so there's a passive kind of physical rest and there's an active physical rest. Sure. Because sometimes we need to just sleep, do nothing, take a nap, right? And that's really just what it is. And then sometimes there's an active form of rest. And this is quite interesting because I have a client who, well, one part of his temperament is melancholic.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

And so the melancholic temperament, that's one of his main. I think the other one might be choleric. Yeah. And so the element associated with the melancholic individual or the temperament is earth.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

And so when you think about earth, earth is unmoving.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Got you.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Right. And so I'm mentioning it because we were having this discussion about how tired he feels. And so sleep has improved, not understanding why there's actually tiredness. And so this is also an individual who's highly sensitive. And so highly sensitive people are constantly attuned to stimuli. And even that tires you, right? So even if you don't know consciously that you're being stimulated, it still tires you. And there's obviously an emotional component if you are highly sensitive. And so we're talking about how he's actually tired because he isn't moving enough. And also moving with the intention of actually shifting that energy. Because he's melancholic, right? So earth doesn't move. You need to use, there has to be something. And the only thing that generally moves it is water and fire. Interesting. And so we've kind of got to find a way for him to channel his energy.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Got you.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

And so it's that idea of when people say you'll sleep better if you exercise, right, and your mood will improve when you exercise because that movement actually helps the whole rest and restoration experience that you have during sleep, but also just within your body because this is an energy that Again, if you're highly sensitive, you know, there's many people out there that are. Generally, you're going to have to learn how to channel your energy, you know, or sometimes even if you're highly anxious.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yes. You

SPEAKER_03 17:54

know, how can you channel that energy? And sometimes that means getting into the body.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

You know, whether you do a light exercise or you tire the body out, but a way of actually channeling that. And so, yeah, that was quite a light bulb moment for him because he was… he was saying, I can absolutely see why that would be relevant. And he's someone who is, you know, active, but as goes, it ebbs and flows in terms of how you prioritize your movement. But so that's the difference between active and passive.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Got you, got you. So I love that because we actually spoke about this earlier the last time where we, you and I, all fair. And I could resonate a lot with it because on many aspects, I'm very similar and I need movements. So I find with my lifestyle, my commitments, this is very difficult for me sometimes to actually get to that or really set the time, be intentional about it. But I do find that I've challenged myself quite a bit in the last kind of month to actually build be more aware about it and try and implement it. And even when I don't feel like it, that's the important part because we're not driven by feelings, yeah?

SPEAKER_03 18:58

No,

SPEAKER_00 18:58

we're not. I had to make that intentional thing about going like, okay, my golden retriever, let's go. Even if it's a walk for 10 o'clock at night, let's go for that walk. And I could see how that shifts my mood as well at times. And because like you're saying, if you're someone... because of your biological makeup or something. People need movement, some people more than others. And so I can completely resonate with it because it made a lot more sense to me. I feel just a lot better. Physically, I feel better. Without thinking about other aspects, but just physically in my body, I just feel better. So completely understand that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Yeah, and that shift is necessary. I mean, I feel the same way that if I don't move enough and I don't move the energy and... I'm sitting with stimuli or it's just I can feel it stuck in my nervous system. And the only thing that really works is to move with it. And to move with consciousness, if you can. If not, you don't need to do that. Just go move. And again, movement, there's no particular way that you do that as long as the body is shifting and moving.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Just interesting, Shami, on that topic, I know it's not really related, but they say the three biggest organs you need in your life to live a longevity or long life is... Two I think are quite known to me. I would think the heart is quite important. The lungs, obviously. But interestingly enough, would you just by any chance think what the third one would be? If you just had to think about it.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

I'd say the liver.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

I would also have thought it's another essential organ like a liver or kidneys, right? But it's actually your thighs for movement. So in other words, the more that you walk, you strengthen your thighs, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

So if your thigh is on strength, then it means that what happens, so the lack of movement makes it you lose the muscle content in your thighs and stuff, which means that you can develop hip problems and stuff later in life. It's so weird because…

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Well, it makes sense because it's sort of just below the midpoint of your body. Body, yeah. And sort of the, I guess the part of you that gives you the balance.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

You know,

SPEAKER_00 20:57

I find it quite interesting.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

That is quite interesting. Well, I mean, I totally see why.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Yeah. But totally see once I mentioned, I could see why. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

So then we talk about mental rest as well. And you can think about what that means for you. And I think mostly it's really about disengaging the mind. I would say that it's about disengaging the mind. And I think also probably because I come from a mindfulness perspective.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Got you.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Although for mental exhaustion or rest, mindful meditation and meditation just within itself is recommended. The other thing that I also find, because the mental rest is, Like what happens in your, think about the mind, right, and the head. You have like goals, you've got lists in your head. Yes, yes, yes. You've got like this is the task orientation. And so I'm often kind of, okay, how can I get out of the mental chatter? Got

SPEAKER_00 21:56

you.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

You know, and so mindful meditation for sure. I mean, you know, I've spoken about it many times and maybe written about it as well. It's like mindfulness really shifted things. So much for me. For you. And it really changed the way that I live my life and how I engage with my mind. Like my mind is not a scary place to be

SPEAKER_00 22:15

anymore. Got you.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Because I know how to navigate it. I mean, some days it's really scary.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

But, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

You're human.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

Yes, I am. It also depends on where I am in my cycle.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Got

SPEAKER_03 22:26

you. But that happens. And so one of the other things that I found really works for me is to get immersed in story.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

You know, so like, yes, you are focusing and you're reading and so the mind is there, but it's this, it's kind of drawing you out a little bit into imagination.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

And so I find, I don't know about you, but like I find if I get stuck into a really good movie.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

You know, and I'm always searching for like older movies, you know, that says nothing about today's. Sure. But I mean, yeah, I just find if I get stuck in story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

I love that. I mean, I generally, I think I mentioned to you, I love watching sort of all the movies. I watch Home Alone again in the festive season. It's like this thing that you have to watch in the festive season. So interesting. I saw a picture of, what's the actor's name again? The youngster? But I love, I want to go back to what you mentioned about the mental clutter and the list that we have and stuff. Yes. You know, I went down for my dad's 70th in the festive season. It was really nice to do that. And I managed to catch up with old friends that I hadn't seen for some time. You know, I'm quite intentional about that because I don't get to spend a lot of time with them. Yeah. So I met up with a friend of mine and, you know, we were chatting. We had a coffee shop and I said, how's it going? How's life and stuff? And he says, yeah, I'm so busy, man. So I'm like, okay, what do you mean? This is now on a Monday night, I've got this to do. And my son goes with me on a Tuesday night, we're doing this. And a Wednesday night, I said, how much of it is actually self-inflicted? So then he said, Link, actually, well, you know, they want me to do this. They want me to do that. I'm like, okay, you know what you're just saying? I said, are you tired? He said, man, I'm drained. So I said to him, do you want to go to this year? feeling that way again because you actually have control of it. And I think that's the important part we miss at times. We think that we have to be pulled into this culture of just doing, doing, doing because let's say culture kind of dictates that. But you know that you have a mind of your own and a will of your own to actually choose what you want. So I think what I'm trying to say is if you feel that you're overwhelmed in your mind by tasks or whatever it is, expectations, that you actually have a say in it. And I feel that's what people miss these days. Like, you know, I have to say yes because I'm not going to be liked or that type of thing. So to actually realize that if you want to maintain a restful state, that you actually take core decisions in your life that's going to help you get there.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Absolutely. And I'm actually thinking about kind of where that ends up is burnout. Wow. That is a scary place to be. I mean, I'm sure you've had the experience, but you know, I mean, I've, I've definitely had that experience and it's something that I think if you were practitioner in the wellness community and you work within this field, it is something that you constantly aware of and negotiating and then, you know, hopefully get to a point where you no longer negotiate it because you, you, You've done enough to get yourself to a point where you don't get enough, right?

UNKNOWN 25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

But I mean, yeah, I think we live in a burnout culture. Yep. You know, and we fix it with a quick, you know, let me do this. Let me just go on a quick holiday. Yeah. And then it'll fix it. Pack up a smoothie. Yeah. A green smoothie. It fixes everything. Yeah. And so, I mean, if you love green smoothies,

SPEAKER_00 26:05

no judgment. Yeah, no judgment.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

But it's not going to be the thing that fixes you. And clearly, like, there isn't just one thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

There we go. I

SPEAKER_03 26:12

think this is it. I think it's not just one thing that fixes you. Great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

You know, and my breathwork teacher, Ilamanga, Dr. Ilamanga, she speaks about it in her book, Breathe, Strategizing Energy in the Age of Burnout. And I mean, it's an incredible book if you want to get it and really understand burnout, but it's really about how we've managed our energy. And so this is why I think the different forms of rest is so important to connect to. Because I find in my practice, what I'm seeing is Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You up your exercise and you get hyperactive.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Got you.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Maybe your body actually needs to slow down and you have to do nothing.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Yeah. So instead of working out seven days a week, maybe you can work out four days a week.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

There we go. Like adjusting that. Yeah. And I mean, a big part of it is also just that spiritual disconnection that we often find.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Very true.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

In the do, do, do culture because spirituality… it kind of beckons you towards the being

SPEAKER_00 27:41

of

SPEAKER_03 27:43

your human nature to just find stillness, to find quiet, solitude, or just contemplative space. You know, again, that doesn't have to look any specific way, but I'm actually finding that a lot of the time is that you're not. And so this is obviously something I'm now talking to my clients about. It's like, you know, let's go through the list because it's, Physical, mental, emotional, social, spiritual, creative, and the last one being sensory

SPEAKER_00 28:10

risk.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Where is the overstimulation in those areas of your life and where can we tune that down? And then this is what I really find is really interesting is. that other part of you is actually going to give you rest. So maybe from the mental rest, you actually go into a creative pursuit.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yes, I love that. Do you get what I'm saying? I get what you're saying completely. It's almost like if you're in one state, let's say your sympathetic state, you can't be in both. No. So either or. So if you're in that other state, like the stressed out state and high cortisol, you kind of don't have the same fruits like of the spirit, they kind of call them spirituality. You can't have kindness, you can't have humility because you're just in survival mode. So when I find when you have the time to reflect, when you actually take that time and whether it's for someone it's, you know, doing yoga or mindfulness or whether it's almost prayer, is that you actually slow your body down and get into a state where you can actually be more present, that you're actually more aware of what's your surroundings. So for me, a big part of it, you know, we all have different things, but I find prayer prayer helps me a lot and it's not you know like I always I always say that for me it's not about having a certain if I don't do it a certain way it's not going to be heard driving the car like damn I really feel overwhelmed please come and help me like make me feel calm You know, if I'm going into a meeting that I know it's really difficult, I'm like, just help me stay calm in the setting. I know you can do it for me. I trust and really trust in your will and you will guide me through the spirit, will guide me through this. So I think it's about kind of I love what you mentioned now. It's like we all have different rest needs and currently we're on our lives. But once you meet that need, we're able to maybe do something. kind of have a better overview or better insight into other forms of rest that we can actually tap into. You know, I love to say what I saw as well, Shami, is someone I know has been through quite a difficult patch in their life. She lives overseas. She moved there. And I recently saw she started journeying quite a lot. But journeying on a more like creative, and I say creative, more artsy. Yes. You know, where they have those stencils and really pretty. But I love that because there was a form of, I guess, of like how for her to, what's the word, looking for therapy in some way? Yeah. Whatever she wants. maybe going through and so I'm saying and she said I've never been a creative person but I think also again I don't want to go too much into this but I think creative is also a very misunderstood topic because creative is not just about being able to sketch and draw but anyway it's a topic on its own but you know where I'm going with this but I think just the able fact that you can actually embrace things a lot better when you're in a state of kind of being in that whole more calm state I think

SPEAKER_03 30:46

yeah and I mean I absolutely agree with you on the creative aspect and I think I've definitely, many years ago, also believed that until I understood that. If we, both men and women, have a creative center literally within our bodies, then that actually makes us inherently creative. You know what I mean? We create life, but also just that extend that to other things. Anytime you're making something or you're engaged in creating something, putting something together, you're

SPEAKER_00 31:17

creating. I mean, the lovely thing, we're creating content at the moment, which is going out into the world. So, I mean, if you ever think about you're not a creative, whatever it is that you are really good at, whether it's a calling of your vocation, is that you're creating something.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

It's true. And I'm actually just reminded of our conversations just before we started recording last year. Yeah. And how I think I might have said to you. I think you did actually. Yeah, I was talking about how, I mean, life is so busy and particularly last year having been a challenging year for me around having to integrate a lot of grief, but also that the calling to me was very much to rest. And I remember saying to you, You know, this could be seen as one more task I have to do. But in truth, because it's a creative pursuit for both of us and, you know, it means something more than that as well. We know it's also for us as a spiritual element to this. But that I said to you, this actually feels like rest because there's a play element to it. There's a... There's a fun. We're not taking it seriously. We're not pushing each other to go like, hey, you've got to get this done. That's it. There's such an understanding because we both understand that we're doing this alongside raising families.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Got you.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Working full time, having meaningful relationships and a balanced life.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Yeah. I'm going to go very deep in this one now. Go ahead, jump in. Because we have these deep conversations when we go for coffee dates. Absolutely. But there's a lot of intentionality about the creation part when I think about us. Our friendship didn't just exist over a period of a short span. No. So it's almost like for me, even though this is a space where we create and it just happens so easily, what I'm trying to say that you have to be intentional about everything that you do, even if it's a restful state and getting there. And I feel that The reason why you and I can be in such an easy, comfortable state in doing this is it's taken years. So what I'm trying to say is whatever you want to do in life, you've got to be intentional about it, work on it because nothing grows from doing nothing. Absolutely. And these podcasts we're doing, I want to put a disclaimer on you to say that there's no way that this is great awareness about topics because it's all about the human experience. Yes. If you find something interesting and you want to engage more on it or you want to read up more about it, nothing's going to work unless you do your part. Absolutely. I always feel that we live in a culture where like if I seem to be outwardly aligning myself with what needs to be done, that that's the work being done. Yeah. Everything that you do is like from the inner part has to come out. Right. So it's the work that needs to be done because I've got this– You know, there's something that kind of spoke to me now and say, we live in a society and like I say, there's no judgment, but it's kind of instant gratification, everything. Like I want it now. So I want the end result, but I don't necessarily want to do the work, the processes in between. So, you know, I really believe that, you know, you're going to have to do the work. There's no easy way out.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

I agree with you. And there's something that actually just sparked for me that's interesting because right at the end of my note-taking, I just thought about the relational aspect of rest. And that's something that you're actually mentioning to me, that's speaking to that because I think these relationships, there are relationships that exist within your life or there can be where you can rest.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

And so I've often thought about that as well as I think I might have said this to my therapist once is that I know that because I'm not married and I'm not partnered. I was married a lifetime ago, for those of you who don't know. And so I know that, you know, if that is meant to happen for me eventually, I know that will be a form of rest for me.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Sure. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

And so it really made me think about rest in the relational aspect.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 35:12

And so when exactly like you say, you know, our ability to just actually be in this place of playfulness and fun and just conversing naturally is because there is a safety in our relationship and also, you know, like a, a very meaningful rapport that we've had. I mean, we've built it over 20 years. Yeah. That is really also brings me into a restful state, you know, that I know there isn't any pressure to be anything would do anything that it's really just an acceptance. Yeah. And so to just encourage people because relationships are just central to the human experience, you know, you can't avoid it unless you want to be avoidant, but we can talk about that too, you know, but there's, Yeah, there's such a beauty in being able to establish relationships and exactly like you say, do the work. Also to be a space of rest for someone else. That it's so rewarding and that, you know, if you are looking at relational issues is to go, where do I feel like I can actually rest?

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

And with who can I do that? Because if you're constantly giving… and you're being drained of your energy and you feel on edge all the time or anxious, whatever it is that you're experiencing, that's not a relationship where you can rest. And so your nervous system is constantly activated. And so just to bring that back into what's actually going on for you. And again, this is the beauty of human relationships

SPEAKER_00 36:43

is that. I love that because I think it's all about love. Yeah. Showing love. Of course. Because I think many a times we live in a society where it's about me, me, me. Yeah. So, you know, when you realize that it's kind of central if you think about it because if you can show love to others, you're in a restful state that there's no expectation. If that's your core state of being that you realize like you're actually placed to show love to others, that you're actually just a leading light for people. Yeah. Because we live in a world where there's a lot of other things happening. I mean, you don't need to look very far to see that. So I think to realize that it actually all comes down to love.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

And so that's a beautiful way to talk about emotional rest because that's another aspect that I think is really important in terms of, and so when we talk about emotional rest, it's really just your ability to actually name your feelings.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

And express them.

UNKNOWN 37:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

So the people who are not rested emotionally can often be the people who are holding back and holding things in and not expressing what's going on. And so they kind of tend towards the old age, people pleasing. And they're not honest about their feelings and their needs as well. And so, of course, if you're someone who doesn't emotionally rest and you're constantly holding space for other people, whether that's through Just that's what you do. Yeah. All people pleasing is to think about rest being not giving.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

And actually coming into a place of receiving. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Which is, you know, it can be quite a challenging place for some people.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Very. I think for most, one of the human experiences is that on some levels, on some, we all kind of feel the need to please.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Because we want to feel part of something, whatever that system is. To

SPEAKER_01 38:38

belong.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

To belong. I mean, you know. So, I mean, I'll speak about my own journey. I've had my own journey where I've kind of been a people pleaser. And... It's very true because on many parts, people, you can't expect others to know what they don't know as well. So if you're not expressing yourself, how are you actually bringing the true version of who you are to others for them to understand how to relate to you? So I realized I'm actually doing not just myself the biggest injustice, but actually for my relationships to grow because they don't actually know. I'm not expressing what I need or want. So how can I build any trust with anyone because I'm not showing what I want to others? And once I gave myself to say that I actually trust Do I mean something? I matter? And what I say matters. Then you realize that you can bring across whatever you want to because I can't control what others would receive me. I can only control how I bring myself across to others. And I think that's been one of the biggest life lessons for me actually for this particular topic.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

For sure. And I'm thinking about what you said at the beginning of this conversation about I think you were asking me what you would prioritize. And you were saying yours is actually just how you would strategize so that you could rest and one of those being boundaries. And so if you're a people pleaser, that's the number one thing you're going to do is you're going to learn how to set

SPEAKER_00 39:53

boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

And just to mention that boundaries aren't just physical. They're physical, emotional, and they're

SPEAKER_00 39:58

energetic.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

And the emotional and the energetic, as I often talk to people about, Is a little bit more tricky sometimes, you know, and it takes more time and it really takes commitment and consistency with your boundaries. But yeah, so that's emotional rest. And then, of course, we've got social rest, which is really just go be alone. Okay. Go spend some time on your own, you know, have some solitude, have a moment of solitude. not engaging with people or feeling like you, you need to be the, you know, that whole, that whole FOMO culture, you know what I mean? Like have JOMO, the joy of missing out, you know what I mean? Experience the JOMO of it because, and it's really, you know, I know as I say this, I might sound a bit flippant and probably because it's not difficult for me. So I want to acknowledge that, but I know that it can be difficult for some

SPEAKER_00 40:54

people. Gotcha. To

SPEAKER_03 40:55

actually be alone and to be in silence. It's very, very hard because that's often when the mind gets really, really busy. And you know what happens.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

But I think it's probably testament to the work that you've had to do over the years. Yeah. And that you're able to control and compartmentalize your mind at times.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

And I'm just thinking back to the whole social risk, Shami. I went down, as I mentioned, for my dad's 70th. And, you know, my wife... you may have mentioned before but we're expecting our second little one pretty recent pretty soon I should say so we're very excited about everything but I'm sure you know with a toddler that's under three and with what's coming there's a lot of things that need to be done and it's been a busy year so I literally just had a conversation with my wife and said listen it's my dad's 70th I know that you and my son Kyron can't come down with me because you can't travel after a certain time period so I said if you don't mind I'm actually going to take the car drive down halfway spend a night on my own catch up on some reading just kind of recharge and then you know I'm going to drive down further to my dad's birthday so that was my way of kind of making sure I could spend some time in solitude, recuperate. It's been a busy year, like you were saying earlier. Yes, yes, yes. With very modest expectations, like with a toddler, just general expectations on people these days. So that was my thing of literally saying, like, this is what I need. Yeah. And some people didn't understand because they're like, why couldn't I travel with you? Why couldn't I sleep over, come with this? Yes. And I was, it's not about you. It's like, it's what I need so that I can show up the best for the people that matter in my life. So I think it's about understanding you've got to get to a point because if you're going to try and please people all the time, you're going to realize you're going to burn yourself out.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Oh, you do. And

SPEAKER_00 42:38

you

SPEAKER_03 42:38

do it without knowing it. But I love that. I love that you claimed that space.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah, that's what I needed at the time.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Absolutely. I love that you claimed that space because that's something I don't think we all believe we have the permission to do. Especially when it comes to something like rest. And again, looking at the different forms of it. But that's really lovely. Again, like you said, it's an intentional practice.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

But I want to add to that. I think also when you tune into, again, when you get into this restful space and you can actually listen to what you need as an individual, like your inner, you're more tuned to stuff. So it was something that I felt I needed at the time. And the interesting part is that some individuals that may have gone down with me in the normal setting, if I'd just taken them with me, When I pushed up at the event, I managed to have a conversation that I probably wouldn't have had had certain people been with me because it wouldn't have allowed for that space. That conversation I had with that individual a week later, as she got back to me and said, thank you for that conversation we had. Because what you shared with me is something that I've been expecting that my daughter's been going through for a while. And she actually took it further and actually gave her diagnosis. Now, that's not the point. The point is the fact that whatever I'd been attuned to listen to, to do, and take that time on and go down, what led from or sparked from that, the conversation, may not have happened had I not been attuned to what I needed. So I think there's a... There's this thing that we believe that we always have to be social. So many people are mocking us to reflect on things. But once you slow down, just slow it down a bit, then you actually start listening to what people are like. You listen in a voice. And sometimes we get spoken to just like in our voice, like God speaking to you in a way and saying to you. But it only happens when you're still. And I mean, you know that better than anyone else.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Absolutely, like tuning into that. Again, like deliberately making the time and space for that because... Well, I mean, you know, I often say that's really the only thing I'm interested in hearing. Yeah. The rest is all noise. And so, yes, so that's a priority for me and obviously for you as well. But yeah, there's so much beauty in what you just described because it just also shows you the role we play in each other's lives, in this human journey. There we go. With each other, your prioritization of yourself and what you need. It really is the thing that sparks something for another. And, you know, we learn from each other so much. So this is really beautiful. Because that also feels like you had spiritual rest.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Yes, I did. The next one. I

SPEAKER_03 45:27

did. And, I mean, spiritual rest is really, I think, about engaging the parts of yourself that really gives meaning to your life. Absolutely. I mean, that could be worship, prayer, community. I think retreating. And again, not retreat, like you're going to book Bali and pay thousands. It doesn't need to be that. Let's buy your wellness.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Platinum, gold, silver package, which one do you want?

SPEAKER_03 45:56

And then you can spend the rest of the year paying that

SPEAKER_00 45:58

off. Oh

SPEAKER_03 46:00

my gosh, that was amazing risk. We've been really sarcastic. But anyway, if you do that, forgive us. But I think we're also just speaking to... Just the nature of how, and you know, we'll get into this next, how exhaustion's been commodified. It is.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

100%.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

Wow. I mean, what a world we're living in. It's just, it's a bit of a beast, eh?

SPEAKER_00 46:24

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Yeah. But I mean, spiritual rest also for me often is connecting to nature. Gotcha. And so the other thing that's also come, that's really become quite a personal thing for me now is who I go into nature with.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Okay. That's important.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Yeah, because the people I generally walk with or hike with are often on the same wavelength, but also that space and that rest element we speak about. I mean, the friends that I hike with or walk with or go and spend, you know, in nature. And, yeah, I'm thinking about on the 1st of January, I met up with my friend, Gilo, who's now in… Okay. Okay. But we were so struck by just the silence we experienced, you know, both internally and externally and how it actually shifts the energy of the space. And so it made the day even more special. And I actually remember leaving and coming home and feeling like, you know, when you've had that experience of we've slipped into this portal and it almost feels like you've been in another world and you have to come back. and kind of cross that threshold again and come back to the world. And then everything actually feels overwhelming. So that's how incredibly immersive that experience was, that it felt a bit like, whoa, this feels overwhelming. I'm kind of going to need to have an easy day

SPEAKER_00 48:05

now.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

But it's incredible. And so, again, there's, to me, in that experience, a very deep and profound rest. You know, that it's not just physical, emotional, social. It's actually... A spiritual, but also like your soul finding. Got you. You know, connection or your soul finding, I think. Yeah, I mean, maybe purpose even. Yeah. You know, not the purpose in that moment. I know what you mean, yeah. But there's something about connecting to what are we here for, you know, around the purpose. Maybe that's

SPEAKER_00 48:42

what I did, but yeah. I love that. Yeah, spiritual, I mean, connection and stuff. It's just, it's something that drives my life. Yeah. I mean, if I had to take away that component, who would I be? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that's just something. I mean, part of a rest, like for me, at night time, if there's one or two particular people I listen to on a spiritual basis on a podcast, and I just find that you might think that, you know, how do you listen to a podcast and rest? But it's the message, though. It's sometimes the peace and clarity of God speaking to me what I may have needed. So I may not have known what I need at the time, but the message that comes through on the podcast gives me rest to know that, okay, I hear what you're telling me. And when we're so involved in the everyday and the busyness, we're not always listening to those cues. So when you're in bed at night, your head's on the pillow and you're alone, essentially alone. You know, sometimes you're forced to be spoken to or you kind of get that space. So, yeah, like I say, I just believe that it's the core focus of what it really is all about, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

It is. It is. It's the connection to self. And I think maybe to bring this conversation just, you know, a tad bit deeper. Yeah. As if it hasn't been. Yeah. But that's what we do here. We do depth. We do depth, babe. You know, thinking about kind of, first of all, just to mention that Energy is the real currency in this world. And as we've just spoken about how a lot of the time not resting means that we've negotiated our energy in a way that doesn't serve us, that it really actually serves a very capitalistic world, right? And that's the world we exist in. And so when I say that, I want to say that with a level of empathy and an acknowledgement of that because I know that It's hard. There's a very, very valid question around like, how do you find rest? Gotcha. She speaks about in her book. Yeah. And this is the book I actually picked up on the very last day of my time off.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:54

Which was so interesting to me because I've heard about it and I follow on social media. Sure. And so I'm sort of aware of the concepts of her work. And I thought, oh, that's interesting that I find this book on the last day of my time off.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

Because, and I know this for me, now that I've, you know, really kind of contemplated that, is that I'm meant to, of course, integrate rest into my life differently. And when I think about my experience that I mentioned earlier about last year. So last year I came, I went into the end of 2023 with like the craziest burnout. And when I returned to work, I was not recovered from my burnout. Okay. And I remember talking to my therapist about it and us actually strategizing how I would be able to actually still work because we have to work. And so this is why this is personal for me as well, is that you have to work because you're a provider. But how do you do that in a way that still honors your life force and that you don't feel like you have to give literally your soul to this thing? this culture that we call grind culture. And so last year was a lot of what I had space for. And what really began to happen for me was I think I started physically, actually started processing my grief that had happened, I think, for three years prior. And some of that was the death of my dad. That was in 2021. And then consequently, so many things that happened with family. And, and just really trying to, you know, cause after you, you lose a parent, you know, you often have to find the ground again. Like there's a part of the foundation shifts beneath your feet and you have to find it again. And I remember thinking it was very different to my mom's passing and obviously with my dad, but now having lost both my parents, not being in this world of that. And so, and so I understood I was still in a process of, I'm finding the ground again in a different way. So now life is going to look different for me. And so, yeah, and so physically I've been processing, I was last year processing a lot of the grief. And so I constantly, the message to me was you cannot do anything but the work, which is consultation that I do most of the time and nothing else. You're not allowed to touch anything else. And every time I came and I'd sit down and go, I think I've rested enough. No, maybe I'll do. no. It was a loud and resounding like, no, you won't do that.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

It

SPEAKER_03 53:31

became so overwhelming. My need for mental rest as well is that there was actually a point where I couldn't read work literature. And I'm sharing this because this is what burnout can do. And it's burnout and life circumstances and me processing whatever I am. But yeah, and so I had to learn how to rest mentally. and learn how to rest spiritually. And so all of these different tenets and these different ways of rest I had to experiment with and actually work with throughout 2024. And there was something also about me kind of, you know, when sometimes you're given this experience where you're asked to just stay in it.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 54:15

You just have to stay in it. There is no way out for you. You've got to stay here because there's something for you to see.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Got you.

SPEAKER_03 54:22

And I remember coming to the woods towards the end of last year. And I mean, our podcast was definitely one of the saving graces because it was, oh, I could engage a different part of me. But I remember coming toward the end of last year and thinking, I still don't feel like I've rested enough. I still, you know, all of these things. And then I think I said to you when we saw each other in December, I was like, I think I have a second wind. What's happened? You know, because I have this energy again.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

And it's interesting because right until the last day of 2024, I'm not kidding you, the message was still, you will not do anything until 2025. You will not prepare for anything. You will not write any list. It was just like, you will do nothing. And so I obeyed. I listened. Because I saw that, because as soon as we came into 2025, I understood deeply, and I'm still obviously processing and integrating this year-long experience I had of really just deeply understanding rest, you know, that you can't know what rest will do for you until you rest.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

100%, I completely understand that. That makes so much sense. Right? So much sense.

SPEAKER_03 55:32

Like you can't, and think about something as simple as sleep. You can't know how good you will feel Until you've slept.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

There we go.

SPEAKER_03 55:39

And you've

SPEAKER_00 55:40

woken up and you go. And you actually know, you feel better that day. There we go. You slept, 100%. And

SPEAKER_03 55:43

so it's a very similar experience. And so this has been, you know, again, like it's a very personal journey for me. And so now obviously I'm at the forefront of like rest, rest, rest, rest, rest. Everybody's going to rest. How can we engage with this? But I wanted to just, yeah, I was mentioning, sorry, I'm going on and on.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

All good.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

But it's just been such a. Yeah, I don't want to say eye-opening experience. It's actually been a very deeply, like a soulful calling for me to understand because, you know, a lot of my work I've also been really engaging in understanding, not understanding actually, promoting and And inviting people to understand the feminine aspect

SPEAKER_00 56:23

of life.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

And so much of the feminine is about rest. And that's for men and women. I

SPEAKER_00 56:30

love that. And obviously, I think, you know, as we go further, you'll bring in some of the topics. But, I mean, just in our conversations, firstly, I'm so glad you shared that. And secondly, I do believe that some of the work you want to do in the feminine space is definitely much needed from the stuff that you've shared with me. So there's Definitely a space for that. And then I want to tell you that I feel that what we are doing currently at the moment, very deep because we've gone there now. So it's fine. Let's just go there. But I do believe that because it's something that we both value, it's like a core value, and what we feel we'd be called to do, I feel that the energy will always be provided to us. Yes. And I feel that even in this creative space for us, because this is literally what it is, it's like we've been provided the circumstances, the past, to be where we are now. So I believe that we're in a space where we need to be. But also I believe that this is not for ourselves. So when you do for others, you'll be given something. everything that you need. So we're not saying that this is the do and end. What I'm trying to say is that we trust that what we've been called to do, Sharmila and I, that this, the messaging that will come out to you, that you can resonate with it. And we do believe that it's a calling and therefore it will reach the right people. And that's what it's all about. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 57:52

You know, it's a whole trusting process. It's funny, I saw a meme that said, does the process know we're trusting it? That was funny. I was like, just keep trusting. But yeah, so when I opened up this book by Trish Hershey, I keep saying, one of the first things that she wrote was, your body is a site of liberation. It doesn't belong to capitalism. Love your body, rest your body, move your body, hold your body. And that struck me. And then on the next page, she says, I hope you're reading while you're lying down. And I just love it. And I thought, oh, gosh, this is like, you know, this is someone who really has, I guess, integrated and worked with this idea of rest. Yeah. And so essentially her book is called Rest is Resistance. Okay. Makes sense. So, of course, she talks about it from the capitalistic perspective. And, you know, there's a political aspect to this that she speaks of, which I full and wholeheartedly

SPEAKER_00 58:54

agree with. Of course.

SPEAKER_03 58:55

Because, you know, if we're grinding and we're hustling. as the words are, you know, Lincoln and I just looked at the root of ISIL and we both had a laugh because we were like, where does that word come from? And it's funny. So go, go do an exercise and go look at the root of that. And so, yeah. And so essentially the resistance is toward this culture that actually in truth, the truth of this is that it wants to use the human body to and the human life force for production and commodify it and work you until your existence comes to a standstill. And that's what we're dealing with daily, on a daily basis, and everybody in our different jobs. And so this idea that her page on social media is called the NAP Ministry.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Oh my word. I love it. It's so creative.

SPEAKER_03 59:53

Yeah. It's so creative. And I think she was talking about how just also engaging in the arts, you know, we're talking about the creative aspect that engaging in the arts is, you know, from an education perspective, the arts is, if you have a, if you use the approach of the arts with children, they become the most integrated and holistically developed. Yeah. And so she's basically talking about how This is not a natural way of living.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

But we all know that. Yeah, we all know that. Well, hopefully we know that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

Oh gosh, hopefully we do.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:28

Well, if you don't, you know, stick with us. Maybe you can do some, yeah. Do some research, but also stick with us. We're going to talk about this some more because it'll probably come through in a lot more of our conversations. But yeah, I mean, this idea that rest becomes a form of resistance for you don't own my body and you don't get to tell me what I do with my life force. I get to decide that. And I'm thinking about the example you made of your friend. Others are deciding for me. No, actually. You know, actually, you do have a say.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

You see what happens is I find it's always when the ego is very prominent. You know, that's our conversation. Oh, you went there. Yeah, our conversation on that. So, and I mean, none of us can escape it. In some parts, we all have. I mean, you understand that. But again, like it's about, you know, status, how will it be seen and kind of thing. So, Until you're not willing to kind of die to some of that ego component and go like, hey, what do I actually need for myself here to survive in this world and be in a restful state? Then you're going to keep on doing and saying yes to those things. And also, like I also understand that we, like you mentioned before, we live in a society where monetary exchange happens and we need to survive. But I also believe there are many things in our own lives, myself included, that we could say no to.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

Oh, I agree with

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

you. I could say no to you. And so I'm speaking to myself here as

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

well. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

And so, yeah, it's going to be a constant reminder to me this year when things get busy because we're quite well rested now. Yes, indeed. At the time of the year, but we're going to go into space again where life's going to kind of get into that monogamy of routines. Yes. And then we're going to go like, sure, things are starting to feel a little bit tougher than it did.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:09

Yeah, and it's so easy to kind of forget what that restful state feels like, you know, and what it feels like in the body. And so one of the things that she mentioned that I thought was really, I mean, obviously she looks at the history of rest, right? And so very aptly points out how capitalism began with slavery, right? Yeah. I mean, colonization and slavery, they both go together. But just how that was the experiment of using human bodies and human life force for labor until they broke and then to establish dominance over them and to say, I own your body.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

Oppression to the biggest, highest level.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:01

Absolutely. And the origins of capitalist culture Being slavery, and that's profound. I mean, read a book, but there's so many other people that speak about this, this idea that, you know, I will find a way to own you. And so even more reason, I guess, through this conversation today to put the call out to you to actually, like, make a decision, you know, for yourself to contemplate that and to make a decision about how your life force will be how you'll navigate the world with your life force, but also to just to honor it, you know, to understand the sacredness of your life force because the truth is no one can own that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Very true.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

You know, they can try to get inside of you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:53

No one can own that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

Yeah, and I completely agree. I love that because, you know, I've heard so many talks around, you know, this year on television about you know, scrolling through social media about wellness and what you need to do this year, diet related. And like I say, each to their own and everything's got a space. Let's just put it out there completely. And yes, completely agree. There's probably maybe three things you could literally do that could really make you have more energy and life force. But I think what we're trying to say, there's a lot more deeper than just on that level. There's probably some serious decisions that you need to make for yourself. So it's not just going like... Because... All information exists in the world already. So if it all exists already, why are we not doing it? So what we're trying to say is like, yes, we understand the space and need for dietary requirements, better sleep and that. But I think on a psychological level, we're trying to go a bit deeper. What does rest actually mean? And you actually can be an active participant in this.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

Absolutely. And again, like you say, there's an individual element to this. Sure. You know, what looks like rest for you may not look like rest for me. And we may share it, you know, but... you've got to actually make that decision. And so again, to just encourage people to do that, not to have one more thing, you know, to add it to like do this for this year, 2025. Thrive.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

Yeah. To be alive. Oh

SPEAKER_03 1:05:16

my goodness. I mean, we hope you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

We all hope you do. But you know

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

what? I think that you consent to it. Yeah. However you decide that you are consenting to that, because I think that's a lot of what you're saying, Lincoln, is that. You know, both you and I had to, when we became, when we prioritized our spirits, because we'd done it the other way for a while. You know, I mean, we all do it for a while. Of course. I mean, I had a spiritual death when I first was like, oh, I need to change this. And it all served me. But we were on the other side and we had to get to a point where we decided. And so we both know it meant, in truth, it meant lifestyle change.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

Lots.

UNKNOWN 1:05:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:58

And like you say, those decisions that you've got to make, you know, and that's really a stroke to your

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

ego. It is. Very much so. The

SPEAKER_03 1:06:05

stuff, you know, and it's all mostly of the material world.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:11

That, you know, fills this, I don't know, part inside of you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

Yeah. That makes you feel better. I want to say that, again, we're not advocating that, you know, material things are not important. Mm-hmm. I think what is important when it goes beyond and above everything else in your life. Yes. So when it gets misplaced, I think that's the part. So what are you sacrificing to put that ahead of anything else? I think that's the important part. So again, it's about prioritizing, I guess. It is. So yeah, I think I wanted to say something, but it kind of slipped my mind. Maybe it'll come back

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

to you. That happens. I just wanted to read this quote by Trish Hirsi. She says, Rest is radical because it disrupts the lie that we are not doing enough. It shouts, no, that is a lie. I'm enough. I'm worthy now and always because I am here. The rest is a resistance movement. It's a connection and a pass back to our true nature. And that's really just what it is, is that anything you engaged in often is about, you know, how can this make me feel worthy?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. So I was engaging with someone on the balcony this week, someone that I've developed a bit of a personal friendship at work to. Yeah. And through the years, I know there's been a few things like most of us have had some kind of trauma of some sort or some psychological issue. If you don't know that, now you know. All of us do on some level. We're just trying to obviously make it through life. But what is interesting to me is I asked her, how was your holiday? She said, oh, so lovely. I managed to spend so much time with my husband. We hardly get to see each other through the year. And she feels so well rested. They went for lunches. And it was just like she was just glowing. I mean, I could see it. And I saw her literally in this week, probably three days later. And I said, sure, what happened? Like, you're looking a bit tired. What's happening? She said, like, yeah, she's not sleeping well and stuff again. So I said, oh, shame, what happened? And the same things that were plaguing her prior to going on holiday and supposedly resting. But what I want to say is, and without sharing too much, is that, not that I know all the issues, but what I'm trying to say is, is that I know there's certain things that she knows that she needs to seek help for because she doesn't have the skill set to manage that with certain relationships in that spaces and what I'm trying to say is that unless we actively search and look for ways to help us in those regard or making some difficult decisions and remember they're small decisions that collectively add up it's not just one massive life decision so I want to put that in that it's small little changes. The little things that you think are insignificant are actually the big decisions. So I just said to her, the discussion we had last year about you possibly seeking the professional help you want, please go and do it for yourself this year. Because I've seen it pan out for four years already. Same things, patterns. So unless you're going to seek help and you have the best intentions, the intentions are not going to drive change. It's the actions that are going to go and take the courage to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:17

Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting because it's such an example of how you just put a Band-Aid on something.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

There you go. That's exactly the way that I saw it. You

SPEAKER_03 1:09:26

know, and you go, oh, this is going to fix everything, when actually it's not. There's a shift, a very deep shift you've got to make. And it's obviously beckoning you to look deeper. Yeah. You know, and, you know, I know some people may think that's scary work, but it's also such rewarding work.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:44

You know, you get to meet yourself more deeply. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I hope she does that. No,

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

I'm sure she will. You know, again, when given the opportunity, I'll never go and just, you know what I mean? But when the opportunities arise, you know, I try and have conversations to say like, you know, do this for yourself. Because you'll show up better for your family, for everyone else, and for yourself most of all. Because, I mean, you know, her intentions are so pure. And I always say that, you know, We can have the greatest intentions to show things, but if we're not able to do it, what does it actually mean? No one knows. But I think the challenge probably is to everyone, including myself, is to say that if there are certain parts that you know that you need to make changes in, go and do them for yourself. Because otherwise we'll have the same conversation a year later and we'll be on the same point. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 1:10:42

I mean, I think, you know, sometimes these things that need to be discussed multiple times, not everything does require that, you know, and for yourself. And, yeah, I think it's just about, again, like I think when we, the way that we speak about it today is just that, you know, you've got to create an environment. Think about your life. Sure. Just everything is the environment that supports, I think, what you were saying at the beginning about strategizing. about how I can, what do I put in place to actually make, to ensure that I'm resting. That's right. And I have to do the same thing, you know, after my year long dance I've done with all these different forms of rest is to really live it now, you know, and prioritize it. And so time off is, you know, not negotiable. Also how I engage for me now, if I can share something.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:35

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:36

Yeah, it's how I engage in business and how I consult day to day. I mean, I've always been doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:43

At least for the last few years because I work regularly in conjunction with my cycle. Sure. And so I'm always trying to prioritize around that, but now it's just deepened for me. And so, yeah, and so I think about looking at those different components of your life and how do you create a space where... you actually have no choice but to risk.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, Just one small thing as well, like for instance, if I look back seven years ago, my energy levels to now, just on a biological level, is that if I don't have enough sleep per se, I know that I'm not going to have the energy the next day. So I need to make sure I have X amount of sleep, whether it's six hours for someone, seven hours, eight hours. And I mean, you know, your cycle, you don't always have the same amount of sleep, good sleep. I mean, that's just human. But I know what I need to function the next day. I also know what I need to do more on a different level. In terms of the night before, what's coming up the next day? So I go, okay, I need to focus on this. This is by 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock. That gives me rest in my mind to actually sleep and do that the next day. So it's strategies that, again, you know your life better than anyone else. You know what's going on in your life. So make those necessary changes. It's going to help you have more energy, I guess, as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:00

True. And then, again, to just remind everybody that we're not resting to do. Yes. Resting for the sake of resting. And, yeah, when we talk about the feminine energy, we often speak, well, I mean, I often speak to people about how it's really mastering the movement between movement and stillness. Got you. You know, because there's, yeah, there's a time for movement and I'm thinking about the season we're in at the moment. So... And if you haven't noticed, maybe this is something you can connect to this year as well, is that spring and summer obviously is the active seasons. So we have more energy. The sun's out. It's literally driving us. It's a reason you can wake up early and go to bed late and not feel as exhausted. Yeah. Depending on your age,

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

eh?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:52

I hope it wasn't shade. Not at all. I'm with you. I'm right there with you. But I think… Yeah, and so this being the active seasons and so also harness that energy. Yes. This is the other thing that I want to say is that, you know, being in an active state and going out there and we were talking about the festive nature of Cape Town and getting involved in that is also just such a lovely form of rest at times.

UNKNOWN 1:14:19

True.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:20

And use the seasons to your advantage because literally your circadian rhythm is moving with the seasons. And so as we enter autumn, we then are kind of beckoned to slow down. Yeah. And then in winter, we're actually meant to be resting.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:39

So that's three months where we are trying to reserve energy. I mean… Nature goes to

SPEAKER_00 1:14:46

sleep. Yeah, look at animal kingdom hibernation.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:48

Hibernation. You know. There's trees that shed. And so there's so much depth to rest. Yeah. But also that it's such a core component of just human life. Yeah. But also existence. True. You know, you can't have activity if you haven't had rest. You can't have rest if you haven't had activity. It's all

SPEAKER_00 1:15:10

of that. All of that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:11

But yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. Yeah. If you decide to engage with it and actually grapple more with it and look at your own life and go, how can I shift things?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:24

Yeah. And I love it because when Shamana came to me and said to me, like, what do you think of this topic for the new year? I said, it's amazing. Yeah. Because I think, honestly, from my conversations and what I pick up from people and just observing culture, there's a lot of anxiousness in society. Yeah. by managing it better and becoming still and understanding what's prioritized, what to prioritize, you can actually find rest. So this to me was a logical topic to speak about. And we hope that you found it interesting. Even my research, like we always say, I find it fascinating, fascinating. So yeah, I really trust that today that you've learned something from this. Sharmilee, as a closing point, is there anything that you would like to maybe add or just as a closing?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:09

I think I want to speak about the wellness industry particularly because we all know I have a lot of feelings about that, as I've said. And I think mostly because I watch how this thing that, let me actually just read it to you. And this is from a lady called, she's on Instagram, and her page is called Pet Radical Therapist. Even our rest is commodified. Apps, wellness retreats, and self-care products are sold back to us as if rest is something we need to buy.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:45

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:47

And that is profound. It is powerful. Because when you give your energy to these things, all of these apps, and you give it unconsciously. So that's all I'm really going to ask everybody to do is engage with these things very, very consciously.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

Got you.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:03

It's very easy, and these things, as we've said before in other episodes, are designed to get you to do things in the moment without really thinking about it. Absolutely, and instant gratification. So I would really ask people to consciously engage with these things. You have a right to your rest. No one can sell you what you already inherently own. You've just got to shift how you engage with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:31

Very true.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:32

and how you think about rest and how you sense it in your body. And once that happens for you, you know, there won't be that much buying power, hopefully. But, yeah, this is your right. And so, like, engage with this consciously and be specific about who you work with.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:51

Very true. You

SPEAKER_03 1:17:51

know, I've said this and I'm going to keep saying this because there's too much out there that's really inauthentic but selling itself as authentic.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:59

Got you. A lot of noise out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:01

Absolutely. And that's it. It's the noise. And so you've actually got to make a deliberate choice to tune out and tune in.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:08

Yeah. Tune in what you actually need.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:10

There we

SPEAKER_00 1:18:11

go. Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, from my side, I find it fascinating today. It's really been actually... quite insightful for me and I hope that I can take some of the own strategies we were speaking of earlier you know in leadership what's the number one challenge it's actually to live out what you tell others to do so it's a challenge to myself and Charmille I guess to say like what we've been telling you there obviously in everyone's life including mine there's certain aspects that I could do better and I trust that this year that you know some of these as a reminder and also the aspects I want to focus like boundaries for me is that I'm able to actually just you know install those or enable those in my life this year So from myself, Lincoln, until next time.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:49

And from me, Shamila, we send you greetings and we invite you as you exist within your human experience to rest.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Yes. Well, that was The Human Story brought to you by Yogd Media. Stay tuned for more on The Human Story.

UNKNOWN 1:19:16

The Human Story you