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The Human Story
The Human Story podcast is brought to you by Yoked media hosted by Lincoln & Shaamiela. We love being human and we find the messiness of the Human Story fascinating. Come and join us for an unfiltered exploration of raw and deeply personal conversations. Through authentic storytelling, we dive into the complexities of life, our struggles, victories, and the profound moments that shape us. The series is about connection, resilience, and transformation, reminding us that while life may not be perfect, it can be beautiful. The Human Story is our invitation to listen deeply, reflect honestly, and recognise yourself in the shared experiences of others. These stories remind us that growth is possible, connection is powerful, and every journey no matter how imperfect is worth telling.
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The Human Story
Human Attention- The Power of Paying Attention
What does it really mean to give our attention—and what happens when we don’t?
In this episode of The Human Story Podcast, brought to you by Yoked Media we explore the quiet power of human attention in an age of constant distraction. Join Lincoln and Shaamiela as they discuss intentionality rooted in mindfulness practice to the unconscious pull of algorithms shaping what we see. Where is our attention going, and what does it say about us?
We unpack the biology of attention—focused, selective, and divided—while also exploring the deeper relational and emotional impact of where we choose to place our awareness. Whether it’s parenting, conversations, or even the everyday responsibilities, our attention not only shapes our experiences but also defines the quality of our connections.
This is a conversation about reclaiming attention as a gift, a discipline, and perhaps even an act of love.
You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all-encompassing human experience.
Speaker 00:This is brought to you by Yolk Media. Well, welcome to The Human Story, where we dive deep into the fascinating intersections of psychology, spirituality, and well, everyday life. I'm your host, Lincoln, and with me today is my co-host, Shamila.
Speaker 02:Hi, welcome back. All right, so I want to start off with a quote by a poet named Mary Oliver, and And so Mary Oliver is an individual. When you read her poetry, you kind of get a sense of her experience of the world and more so the natural world. And so she's often asking us through her poetry to pay attention and to engage with the world around us and to look to the simplicity of those experiences that we have. Yeah. particularly in the natural world. And so her quote to introduce our topic today is, attention is the beginning of devotion. I
Speaker 00:love that.
Speaker 02:So what are you paying attention to, human being? That's the question. What do you think of when I say human attention?
Speaker 00:It's an interesting topic. It is. Because, you know, as we were doing our own research, I think... my mind kind of wandered about attention. Indeed. But you kind of think, what does it actually mean? Because attention could be so vast. And I think we have so much wealth of information available to us today, but we're so much more distracted than ever before in society. So I think it's a good way to start, Shamila, to tell me, what do you think is your definition of human attention?
Speaker 02:I mean, I think that if we look at kind of, I think just linked to what you were saying, the first question for me is why do we pay attention?
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:Right. Like, what's the point of that? You know, and cause then it's kind of also like, what do I give my attention to? But the thing, I guess the thing that comes to mind for me is intentionality, but that's just me. And that's probably because I've been influenced by mindfulness, which is deeply obviously connected to how we pay attention. And because I'm a pretty seasoned mindfulness meditator. And so that particularly is about paying attention to your mind and noticing what happens. And then obviously extending that to the outside world. And so I think about intentionality. when it comes to attention. But I also think about exactly what you just said. I think about how absolutely distracting everything around us is. And the sheer volume of information, visual information, auditory information, sensory information that we kind of almost bombarded with throughout our day. And then, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm thinking about like, I don't know, your phone probably has the same feature where they give you an update once a week
Speaker 00:on what
Speaker 02:you've given your attention to. You know what I mean? And that's always such a reality check, you know, because it's giving you the hours you've spent, right? And it's showing you.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:where you've given your attention and what you've given it to. And then it actually kind of makes me reflect on, you know, if I'd be doing that, okay, so like when was, how many hours did I spend this week? When was that? Was that Monday? Was it Tuesday? What was happening on Tuesday or Wednesday? Do you know
Speaker 00:what I mean? I know what you mean.
Speaker 02:Yeah.
Speaker 00:We like to think we're rational beings and we do everything rationally. Yeah. But I think that's a frank reminder when we see that screen time, what we spend our time with, actually where we spend our time And that's kind of like so evident in terms of how we think we go through the world, being so attentive to things, sometimes in a good or bad way. But again, it shows testament to me almost that we kind of like, you know, meander through life unaware. We have this bias, this thing that we're so on top of things and we're so aware of what we're paying attention to. But actually, how much of it is happening on an unconscious level? Like, you know, there might be 5% of things we're actually aware of that we kind of like grasping and kind of fully aware of attention-wise. But then what's the other 95% of that's meandering through our unconscious that we're not actually aware of, you know? And that's the interesting part for me too. When we come to attention as well, you know, not that this podcast intention, like we said, we always want to be relevant and make sure that we, you know, that it's something that we quite open about that people can relate to. But there's also a biology aspect to human attention, you know, that we can't avoid. And when we talk about that, you know, there's this different types of attention that one gets and that selective attention, you know, focus, limited attention. But then there's also saying you're a default mode network in the brain. It's part of the brain that kicks in when we're not focused on anything specific. So it can either be something that we, when we just kind of like in a, in a, what's the word I'm looking for? Like a idle state of mind where we're not really paying attention, where your mind can either wander into a positive kind of space. And unfortunately for many people, it can actually be, lead to the more negative space. And I mean, you've done a lot of work with this too. And you'll know that when people are idle and they have a lot of time on their hands and they haven't necessarily processed a lot of things that are more kind of more topical, but you know, like trauma and stuff, they tend to go to more negative things. But it's just interesting to me that the brain is such a complex thing and has so many, I mean, neurons, synapses and all these other kind of connections. Yeah. But it's interesting to me how we actually place attention and the different types of attention. I don't know if you just want to maybe touch on some of the different types of attention. It might sound very technical, but I think once you kind of explain it in more detail, I think people understand that actually it's what they do every day and that there are actually different types of attention that they can be aware of.
Speaker 02:Definitely. I mean, the things that come to mind for me is, first of all, outward attention versus inward attention, right? So I brought up mindfulness. We'll discuss that a little bit more later on.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:So there's that aspect. There's also things like whether or not your attention is focused.
Speaker 00:Got you.
Speaker 02:Whether it's limited or whether it's selective. Yeah. Okay. So I think we all understand selective attention. A little bit like what happens when you're on YouTube or on social media.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:You know, whatever you're selecting, there's an algorithm that's built, you know, particularly for you in a way that these creators make you feel special. Yeah. But actually, you know.
Speaker 00:Is that kind of like where, let's say for instance, you are searching for, you want to buy a new phone. And all of a sudden, you'll find that every single post thereafter, and you always think like, are these people recording my voice here as well? I
Speaker 02:think they
Speaker 00:are. They probably are.
Speaker 02:100%.
Speaker 00:But where everything of that would obviously now appear on your algorithms in terms of researching.
Speaker 02:So essentially like, you know, what you are selecting.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And I think that that is often, it can be... There can be a time and place for that, like our selectivity. I'm also just thinking about where you are in terms of your day, your capacity, your emotional capacity, your spiritual capacity, your mental capacity. We are choosing to give our attention essentially based on our capacity and also what's a priority, right? Okay. I tend to kind of lean into the myth of multitasking. It's where you've got a couple of things going, right? If you're cooking and your kid walks into the room and into the kitchen and they're asking you about something and your mind kind of has to swap to that. So essentially that's what's happening. If I've got the kettle on, I'm cooking rice, I've just started sauteing onions and my child walks into the room, essentially what I'm doing is I'm just swapping things between those different tasks and I'm giving it sort of almost a limited amount of attention, right? Because I know that there is somewhere in the background, I know that there's all these other things happening. And so I only have like a limited period of time to give to you and all of that. So the issue with multitasking though is that Yeah. Sure. Yeah. But I think where it comes in is that if you are busy with tasks that are a little bit more serious, I would actually say, and this is what I often challenge people with in terms of practicing focused attention and mindfulness, even in the mundane. So that is a mundane situation that I've kind of just described, is that the power actually comes of kind of like learning to be more focused with your attention and also being intentional with your attention is actually doing it in those mundane tasks. And the reason you do that is because it's not an approach you only want to use in certain situations. What you want to do is train the brain.
Speaker 00:There we go.
Speaker 02:Right? You want to train the brain. to be accustomed to engaging in activity in a more focused manner. Okay. And so we kind of are saying we're moving away. We want to move away from multitasking and giving limited attention. Again, you know, it's relevant. There are times where you're just not going to get it right. And it's not about like, okay, yeah, I am being so, you know, mindful. But if we can spend at least 70% of our time not doing that, I think that that is healthier. Yeah, and then, of course, focused attention means that we enter into a state where we are completely focused, completely present. We are essentially, I think, the word that's come through a lot. We've just been watching the Olympics in the last few weeks. You watch people, actually. Yeah. become what the phrase that people have been using is locked in essentially, right? Yeah. And I think you and I were talking about through our research and discussions about the flow state.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:Yeah.
Speaker 00:Definitely. It's interesting that you mentioned that because obviously, I mean, it's a topical thing. The Olympics is just recently finished. Yep. So now they've got a timestamp on the podcast too. But I think it's interesting because I heard one of the athletes say they came back, the relay team that won the silver medal for South Africa. He was saying that, you know, last time he dropped the baton in 2019, it was so hot.
Speaker 02:Oh, wow.
Speaker 00:And he's glad that obviously this time he could, you know, with the team win the silver medal. But he said what he's very aware of is the fact that if Wow. Yeah. that he realized like if he didn't go with the right mindset this time, because obviously there was a self-awareness of what happened in the previous Olympics. And for him to better that and become aware of what he needed to do, he obviously put the things in place to be assured what he needed to do to win. And I love that because it was just a clear indication that it's not a passive experience. You know, we can actively train our brains, like you're saying. If there's been some disappointments in the past, whether it's been attention or a bit of self-awareness, but more the attention part of what we need to do. And also, I mean, you know very well, there's certain practices that we can do that help us with human attention. I know, Shami, you do quite a bit of work in mindfulness and breath, breath work as well. I don't know if you maybe want to share from your own experience if anything in terms of mindfulness or breath work has helped you in any way that you've actually seen tangible results in your life that you can maybe speak of
Speaker 02:definitely and as soon as you speak about that I think about at the beginning of any meditation practice or a breath work session that I am facilitating or even for myself if I'm practicing I'm actually thinking about like you know our different forms of attention right so a lot of the time we're almost thinking about attention mainly in the form of thought, right? And so what you do at the beginning of a session is to tap into your sensory world and you attend to your sensory world, essentially, right? So that's where your attention is. And so you pay attention through the senses. So essentially I'll ask you, as you sit in this room, Lincoln, you know, notice the smells.
Speaker 00:Got you.
Speaker 02:You know, feel the temperature on your skin. Okay. and notice the light that passes through your eyes. So essentially I'm asking you to tune into your senses.
Speaker 00:Okay.
Speaker 02:And so sensory attention to me, I think, is deeply powerful, right? I think it also helps us to not disconnect from the outside world because if I'm asking you to tune into your senses, what we're doing is we're almost amalgamating the two.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:We're bringing the outward inward and the inward outward, essentially, right? And so that's, I mean, that's very powerful practice. And any practice that you start, any session that you facilitate has to begin with bringing you into the present moment, right? And bringing the person into that. And so often the sensory, yeah, like the sensory attention is quite fascinating. Just that simple practice, what that does. Yeah. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And I mean, essentially kind of also links deeply to self-awareness.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:But I mean, so I mean, all of the words that go with that is really like a deep presence, you know, with your sensory world. That kind of takes you out of your mind. Got you. And brings you into the body.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And so, yeah, so I feel like that's a really powerful, very simple, but a very powerful exercise.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And there's something really calming about asking someone to come and Well, at least what I've seen with some people is that there is something very calming about being able to engage with the world through their senses,
Speaker 00:consciously. Consciously.
Speaker 02:Because we are engaging with the world through our senses, but of course the key word here is consciousness. Got you. Yeah. Is that something that you pay attention to? I'd
Speaker 00:say recently probably a lot more. You know, like I said, we like to think we're rational beings and we're always aware. And like you say, there's certain situations that does allow you to be more conscious with time. Like you say, time is also a precious commodity, just like attention. So if you can get the mix right between the two in your busy schedule, it's, you know, you always try and be present, but I do find at times, like for instance, just preparing for this podcast last night, the week got busy. We wanted to do research and as things would have it, we both have demanding schedules. So I ended up doing research quite late last night and again, early this morning. And I also know in order for me to have my full attention and being aware of it, like you're saying, I need to have good sleep. which is important to me. So I'm aware of how I operate in like a flow state and a good kind of state of how I can pay attention to things and be noticed of things. So getting a restful night of sleep was important for me to do this podcast. But also, you know, like you're saying, I love the fact that you're saying try and be more present. It is definitely a practice that I do. And I can see the value of being more attentive in situations in terms of my relationships with people. I can speak about my son. He's still a toddler. But I notice when I'm more distracted with things, with my phone, that type of stuff, when I come home and I kind of convince myself I had a busy day at work and I'm owed to this now and I need my space, I realize the disconnect that I have with him. when I'm not attentive. And I can see the benefits and the fruits of it when I actually do pay attention to him. So like you said, I can actually see in my own life that when I do pay focus and give attention to certain things, that there is actually a benefit to it. So it's not something that's like an aspired state to work towards. There's actually a tangible, relatable state exchangeable thing you see in the year now, like you're saying in the present. I love that. So I definitely would say, Chamale, it's something that I wish I was more proficient at, but it's getting better, but I can see the benefits of it.
Speaker 02:Oh, I love that. That's such a reflection and it really just connects to something I also experienced this week. So on Thursday, I had a massage and it was a deeply relaxing massage, aromatherapy massage. Okay. And I was voice noting a friend of mine and saying, sorry, I didn't get back to you. I spent my day in and out of consciousness. Because I was so deeply
Speaker 01:relaxed.
Speaker 02:But there was something I'd read in, also in prep for this, as you were saying, around how sleep influences our attention, right? And so... Obviously, after that massage, I slept really deeply. And then the next morning was up quite early, you know, working on this. And I noticed, I mean, first of all, in the morning, I probably, for most people, maybe, for some people, maybe not say most, your attention and your mind probably does feel a little bit more clear in the
Speaker 00:morning,
Speaker 02:depending on how your sleep was. But I really definitely found that there was a a difference to my attention and my ability to be present after very deep sleep. and the quality of that
Speaker 00:sleep,
Speaker 02:right? So the rest aspect and the sleep aspect and, you know, getting the brain to kind of disengage consciously. What that does, I mean, there's an insane amount of information out there around kind of like the impact on sleep and, sorry, that sleep has on our attentive state, you know, and our conscious state, our ability to connect and to, I think, almost, I think what you were saying around the quality of that connection.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:But also to mention that with sleep, there's a lot of integration that happens. And so that's really important to remember. So I want to bring that back into kind of attention. So whatever you're giving your attention to during the day, there's an integration process happening at night and that influences your, I mean, when you sleep. It influences everything. And so there's something about needing to really take care of of the amount of hours you get and the quality of that sleep, that is also important for integration. Whether that's information that you've taken in, an emotional state that you experienced during the day, that's important. And I mean, integration is essentially that thing, finding its place within you. And all of those things, again, impact the next day when
Speaker 00:you wake up. I agree. That's why sleep hygiene and stuff is so important. Do you avoid screen time an hour before sleeping? Is the room kind of like in a state where it's conducive to good sleeping conditions? Do you have any distractions in the room? And I've also found that, again, I'm using the example, but it's perfect for my son. When we put him to bed a certain time at night, if we've done the prepping properly, his process of sleeping is easier now. works a lot better. If we kind of rush things and we get him, it just doesn't work, you know? He stays awake for much longer. But I think it's so important, like you're saying, for me especially, I mean, I can really comment to that, is that if I don't sleep properly, I'm also not the nicest person the next day. Yeah,
Speaker 02:same.
Speaker 00:So I love trying to avoid people.
Speaker 02:Same, like I'm not a, yeah,
Speaker 00:I'm not a... So, yeah, I think we can both relate to that, but I think it's very important... All right, Charmaine, you know, attention as a commodity because, I mean, that's an important aspect. We have all these things trying to get our attention. I mean, it is a very important commodity. What's the impact of visual attention on attention as a topic, you know, with the influence of things like social media and what we've seen, you know, since the pandemic. We'd like to think that since the pandemic, we're more connected than ever, whereas, you know, many people would say, well, exactly that. Connected to what, actually? So, you know, on this topic, I mean, with visual attention and the vast amounts of distractions we have, what impact does social media have in terms of, our attention span and what we pay attention to. I
Speaker 02:think, I mean, maybe to begin with the fact that you named it, you know, the commodity of attention.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:So essentially like if we, you know, maybe I want to ask everybody that's listening to think about what that means. It means that it's something that can be bought, you know, and sold essentially, right? Because it's literally in what we said in the beginning, which is you pay attention. What are you paying with? I'm
Speaker 00:sorry to say this. It wasn't on the thing, but I don't know if you've heard all the recent stuff about Timu and Shane, like how much money they spend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just an interesting thing is it's either Timu or Shane. They spend the fifth most advertising spend with Facebook, which is in the billions. Again, like for attention. So if you pop up for any clothing item or anything you're looking for these days, what pops up? Shane or Timu? So again, like Shamila was saying to me, it is a commodity and people are vying for our attention, you know, with vast amounts, throwing vast amounts of money at it. Then, yeah, I want us to say like, what's the intentionality of people seeking our attention these days? How important is our attention to people and brands and stuff like that? Yeah. It's going slightly off topic, but you know what I
Speaker 02:mean. No, I think it's deeply relevant because I think that it's exactly that because, again, the idea is that we think about these things more deeply and more critically than just kind of like what's in front of you. If they're spending that amount of money, guess what? Your attention is valuable. Of
Speaker 01:course.
Speaker 02:Deeply valuable because something is feeding it. And I'm just thinking about how Let's think about if it's a commodity, right? Attention has become a commodity, right? And so that's something that we continue to see. And if it can be bought and sold, I think about it as a form of energy, right? Because if we think about another commodity, we think about something like money, right? Again, exchange of something. And so your attention in truth is a form of energy that you give to something, right? Right.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And that's it. Like you're selling a form of your energy, you know, or a form of your energy is being sold by what it is that you pay attention to.
Speaker 00:Got you.
Speaker 02:And we have all of these, you know, companies, institutions, whatever you want to call it, vying for that, you know, and trying to kind of like grasp as much as they can because we are giving it something, right?
Unknown:Yes.
Speaker 02:Particularly if you're not intentional with what it is that you pay attention to. Then one of the other things that I came across was the fact that visual attention is the most researched topic. or the most form of attention, the most researched form of attention. Why do you think that is? You know, do it like you know. I don't think that answers the conundrum.
Speaker 00:No, it doesn't.
Speaker 02:I think we all know. And, you know, there is a particular form it takes in our daily life, and that is social media. So, I mean, you know, think about the idea that your attention is a form of energy and that, you know, that is… Wow. Okay. So these are people who understand human behavior. Right. They understand the human mind. Absolutely. And they understand the neuroscience of it, of human attention. And so these are things I think we need to, again, pay attention to.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And just to be aware of, because, yeah, I mean, like, what is our experience of social media? Yeah. You and I can both, like, talk about that. Yeah, for a long time. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I just want to add, you know, that I will say that the most, I think the most important, not the most important thing, but the thing that's been the most striking for me is when I take a break from social media, the difference that makes. So I'll just, yeah. I know that you want to
Speaker 00:add something. Yeah, I think, I think very true, Shamile. I think with regards to social media, I'm speaking from my own experience. I find at times when I'm scrolling, Whatever is happening is that there's almost a bit of anxiety that happens that I can feel building up inside. Like I'm doom scrolling. Doom scrolling. Doom scrolling. Yeah. And it's just like wasting time. So they've actually gained my attention to be doing that. Like you say, where they're using algorithm to give you the same kind of content, but it doesn't make me feel in a good state at the time. So I feel very aware of how much time I spend on social media because I Again, like I said, that has an impact on my peripheral relationships and everything else and the way that I engage with the world after. So either I look at it from a negative or positive reflection. If I've generally had a good day and it's things that I generally tend to like and see, I can kind of manage it. But if I've had a bad day and I'm doom scrolling to actually just help me numb the
Speaker 01:the
Speaker 00:distractions of today or the disappointments, then it goes into deeper, darker depression almost.
Speaker 02:Absolutely. And again, you know, we don't need to mention the many studies that is now out around kind of how there's an increase, there's a rise of anxiety and depression, very directly linked to social media. I was also thinking about something that really became apparent to me and that I read about. And again, I often feel like I, you know, I, Experiment on myself first and go, okay, so if this is what it's like for me, imagine what it's like for, you know, everybody else. And so when you go, you know, we're all familiar with the term emotional rollercoaster, right? Okay. So if you can tap into your sensory experience, imagine what that feels like, right?
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:But you don't need to imagine it because all you need to do is go onto your discovery page on social media. Think about the one with all the pictures, particular one, and click on anything on that discovery page. First of all, yes, there may be an algorithm, there may be particular things, but every single thing that you're going to click on is going to probably give you a different emotional experience. So what you are doing is when you go onto social media sometimes, is that you are cycling through multiple experiences and emotional, you know, experiences. And imagine what that does to your nervous system. Sure. It's overstimulation. Exactly. You're taking yourself on this emotional rollercoaster and you're doing it willingly. Okay. Right? By... Giving this your attention. And so, of course, we're not here to kind of shame that. Yeah, yeah, of course. Because, you know, both of us, as we speak about it, has done it. Of course. It still happens. We both doom-scroll. Yeah. And then, you know, there's eventually an awareness that creeps in, often when I'm doing it, that's kind of like, okay, so we do know that our nervous system is responding to that because you can feel it. Yes. You know, you can sense it. And you said you could sense the anxiety rising.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And that's what you're doing. So you're cycling between, you see something and it's really sad and heart-touching. And then you see something exciting. And then you see something insanely funny. And, you know, comedic. And that's not normal.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:You know, to spend about 15, 20 minutes cycling through all of those different experiences and emotions, you're almost in some way signing up to dysregulate yourself.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And so what we do is we put the phone down and none of us, you know, not none of us, but sometimes we're not aware that that's just happened.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And whatever you do, you go and you kind of like in that dysregulated state, you go and engage with whatever. Yeah. Is happening in your life, in your daily life. Or you go and have a conversation and that type of thing. And so essentially it's really just about, again, when you're on social media so now you have your your attention has been you know bought and your attention has been i think uh it's kind of been what's the word like you've had focused attention yes someone's basically drawn your attention to something and so now you're connected to that and disconnected from almost your internal state
Speaker 00:got you
Speaker 02:right and if you're someone who You're inclined to pay attention to your nervous system or your states of regulation versus dysregulation. You may catch it. Okay. But in truth, most people don't. Yeah. You know, and so, yeah, it just felt like something really like– and so it's something that I share often with my clients now is to say to them, okay, so– That's really what it is that you're creating. And if you're here with me trying to work on kind of like regulating your nervous system or becoming more emotionally aware and responsible for your emotional landscape, then if you're giving your attention in that way, then... Yeah, that's something, again, to pay attention to
Speaker 00:and to notice. I love about you speaking about regulating emotions. If I just think about it in terms of that, I wonder, I mean, again, it's just a hypothesis. It's not obviously we just here to discuss and make people think about things. But I wonder in some way if trying to dysregulate your emotions and your feelings, if that makes you kind of more erratic that you would tend to purchase more erratically. online because you're not in a regulated state. So you're not thinking as clearly as you possibly would. So this is interesting. Just two things I want to mention to you. Two studies I just brought to mind. I remember reading this a good couple of months ago. But they're trying to figure out with regards to, you know, when you stand in the lines, you're walking to a queue. Remember back in the day, there was always chewing gum as you walked on the aisle, whatever. And people would tend to take chewing gum, whatever the sweets. And they often, like you said, there's a science behind it as well that in terms of kids taking sweets often trying to get that. But what I find interesting, they couldn't understand a couple of years ago why the sales of chewing gum had dropped so You know, substantially, I think it dropped by like 300%. They couldn't understand. They're trying to figure out what are the reasons for it. And actually what they found out is that with social media and phones, people would generally look around when they're standing by a queue or till waiting to go to till points. And they would generally that time have the tension to actually look and pick up sweets or chewing gum. Now they're on their phones. Wow. So it actually distracted them. their attention because they are now on their phones from actually doing that purchasing. Another important one that I read or another one that was quite interesting, I found some state in the United States of America, where they found that people were having a lot of accidents because of cell phone usage.
Speaker 02:Not a surprise.
Speaker 00:Not a surprise at all. I think the surprising part is, well, not actually, if you think about it when I tell you this, but When they implemented and they put boards and stuff like signs around in that area to show that being on a cell phone is illegal while driving, guess what happened? Do you think that they had more accidents or less accidents? One would generally assume there'd be less because it's maybe an awareness. Yeah, because it's something
Speaker 02:that's kind of like… What's the word? It's like reminding you.
Speaker 00:Yes, reminding you. So generally I would have thought that, but it actually created the opposite effect.
Speaker 02:Wow.
Speaker 00:Because now people were aware that it's illegal to look at your phone. So they were scrolling down, looking down, putting their phones in their laps and having more accidents.
Speaker 02:Unbelievable. But also so believable.
Speaker 00:You understand? Because I understand exactly. It's almost like we know, even in where we live in Cape Town, that, you know, being on a cell phone is illegal. So you're very aware of traffic cops and people around you. So now you obviously sometimes you tend to keep it down. So you're hiding
Speaker 02:it.
Speaker 00:And about the divided attention and stuff. Yeah. It makes so much sense. So I found those two studies quite useful to understand how human behavior works and what we pay attention to, yeah.
Speaker 02:Absolutely. That just feels like it really grounds a lot of what we're speaking about. And I'm, yeah.
Speaker 00:Yeah, no, sorry.
Speaker 02:No, I'm just thinking about like how that almost feels like an insistence on, you know, wanting to kind of be... drawn into this thing and the power of that, you know, of wanting to, because again, you know, these things as a reminder to everybody, these are all psychological cues, right? And so again, all of these things and social media is built around, you know, hooking in to those psychological cues for you. And so, yeah. You know, you wanting to know, but I must finish and I want to finish and I want this. You know, that's, yeah, it's deeply connected to the intentionality around social media. Of course. And giving you, I know we think we live with free choice, you know, and we do have free will. Yeah. But I mean, it also shows us just how deeply we are controlled.
Speaker 00:No, definitely. I mean, I just think of, if I think of in terms of parenting styles, we like to think that our kids, you know, kind of do what we say, but they do what they observe. Visual attention. And then I realized that he's kind of seen it from us, his parents.
Speaker 02:He's watched
Speaker 00:it. Yeah, he's watched, yeah. So it's very interesting, like you say, how that really transgresses and kind of flows in that state.
Speaker 02:I'm thinking about, you know, coming back to the quote that I started with, attention is the beginning of devotion. I'm thinking about a couple of years ago I was listening to a talk and they were talking about kind of the definition of devotion being Meaning that you become the disciple of something.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:Right. And so that has a very biblical connotation, of course.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:But essentially it means that you become dedicated and loyal and passionate about this thing or whatever it is that you are a disciple of. And attention being the beginning of devotion. Yeah. That I show you my devotion by giving you my attention.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And I was reading a book by Rupert Sheldrake called The Science Delusion. Yeah. We won't say who he's responding to when he called his book that. Oh, I think that's just me surmising. Yeah. But essentially he spoke about the root of the word attention and intention. And so it's from the Latin root tender, which means to stretch as in tense and tension. So attention being ad tendere.
Speaker 00:Got you.
Speaker 02:which is to stretch toward, and intention being intender,
Speaker 00:to
Speaker 02:stretch into.
Speaker 00:Right?
Speaker 02:So think about, yeah, so think about attention being as towards something. Right? I'm moving towards you. And we think about what that means in terms of connection, human connection. You know? Almost in some way that whatever we pay attention to says something about our humanity.
Speaker 00:Got you.
Speaker 02:You know.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:Or where we are in relation to our humanity. Right. Maybe it's even the thing that makes us human. You know, what it is that we give and our attention to. And then also the intentionality. of it being that you stitch into something. So essentially intention is about depth, right? It's not just about the surface of something.
Speaker 00:I love that. I just want to add to that. I think in linguistics, they often speak about what makes humans different to kind of like mammals. The fact that we're dynamic in linguistic ability and the mind and be able to communicate what we're feeling and thinking differently and for people to reciprocate on those, you know, on that. And it's so interesting with what you're saying with like attention as well because there's an aspect of that that's also quite dynamic as a human being.
Speaker 02:Yeah.
Speaker 00:You know, and it's just very interesting. I love the part where you're saying about the stretching towards something and the inward as well. It's really, really fascinating.
Speaker 02:Yeah, and I think, again, to kind of just put that– to our listeners around, you know, where does that statement take you? Is there a question you can ask yourself around, yeah, what it is that you pay attention to? Or just attention, you know, human attention and the fact that, as we said, it's become this commodity that can be bought and sold. And so I suppose it's an encouragement to just become intentional about your attention.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:You know, and that you are engaging with an intention to, I don't know, like I'm thinking about something like what we just mentioned about social media, about doom scrolling. So, okay. So I think it can be different, right? And I think this with most things. Yeah. I think if you consciously do something, it creates a whole other dimension. sort of dynamic to the experience. So when I say this, I say that if you decide, again, right, this is not about just meandering, I think is the word you used earlier on, along with life. It's actually becoming intentional with your time, your energy, and in this case, your attention. And so if you decide, I'm going to doomscroll, okay, so do that consciously. And the reason I say that is because it almost adds a different form of responsibility, right? Because, first of all, you become responsible
Speaker 01:for that action.
Speaker 02:You can't just say, I was drawn into it, right? I chose this. So you can consciously doom scroll. Maybe you can even set a timer. And you can say, for 10 minutes, I'm going to doom scroll.
Speaker 00:And I'm okay with it.
Speaker 02:And I'm okay with that. Exactly. So that you aren't, you're not shaming yourself. There's almost like a compassion for yourself that you almost include in this experience. And so again, bring a consciousness to that and see what that does. See what that does for you as opposed to just going, it was chosen for me. I was drawn into it. Again, there's almost like a responsibility that you get to Yeah. You know, and intentionality means that you take responsibility.
Speaker 00:Yeah. I'm going to veer slightly to the left on this next comment, but it's kind of leading into something else we want to touch on in a future podcast too. But just recently, a family member of ours passed and I was quite close to him. He was a cousin of mine and his brother died. which I had known for a few years, has had a few mental health struggles through the years, more circumstantial ones. And he particularly had a lot of struggles at work. And what happened is about probably two months ago that his family member passed, I can see it's been causing a lot of strife inside of him. I can see it when I have... Chats with him and he doesn't often speak about it. And then randomly we received a message early this week to say that in a family, he's actually going to resign from his job and he's going to take some time to just reflect and see what he wants from life. But I know it's not particularly human attention. It's an aspect of self-awareness of becoming aware of that. But I think they also are part of attention to that. Absolutely. You know, paying attention to go like, You know, maybe for a long time I haven't been paying attention to what I've been struggling with. Suddenly this loss or this trauma has triggered something inside of me that I now want to face. Absolutely. And I want to pay attention to it and help myself progress through what is left of my time as a commodity that I want to do better. And how many of us can say that at times we find situations similar to this, and I'm sure many of you have had to experience this with loss, that it is at a time you can either go like, you know, it's a time that I really want to redirect my life and make a positive contribution for what's left ahead. Or it's just a reminder for Frank period and go, well, I'll continue life as normal as it goes past. But the interesting part for me is that, you know, that it is a process that you can engage and then go like, hey, this is an opportunity to reset. And maybe the second part of my life, if you are in that stage of your life to go like, I can really make a difference going forward here.
Speaker 02:Yeah. And, and I guess be intentional, but that's, that's a beautiful reflection. And like, I'm almost relieved for him, you know, that he, that he paid attention to it because it absolutely fits in with inward attention, you know, these paying attention to your internal state,
Speaker 01:you
Speaker 02:know, which is a big part of being intentional. Yeah. And as you say, I think that loss has certainly done the exact same thing for me. I know with the loss of my mother, that was, you know, that was an absolute, it was the same outcome for me. You know, I always think about the quote by Paulo Coelho, but there is no better reminder of life than death. Because when you, and actually I was just saying to a friend who sent me, I was watching one of her Her story is on social media. Okay. It's very intentional, everybody.
Speaker 01:Okay. Just so you know. All
Speaker 02:right. But it was about, and I say to her, like, I feel like we should all watch someone pass at some point. And I think because there's something about... that it gives you pause to reflect, you know, and to be reminded that that is a guarantee. There aren't many guarantees, but that's one of them. Yeah. That we'll all go through that. Yeah, but it's definitely, it was definitely one of the same, it's done the same thing for me.
Speaker 01:Yeah,
Speaker 02:yeah. In that it gave me pause and kind of was like, okay, now we need to be deeply intentional about our time. Not that I wasn't.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:But I think it just, yeah, deepened that in a really beautiful way, in a way that was kind of, yeah, it was kind of awakening. And I think gave my life a different depth. Yeah. I think really like helped me connect to my authenticity. Yeah. You know, a word that I know is overused, but genuinely made me go, okay. As you know, there's often the question around what is it that you need in your life? Yeah. I started asking my question, the question of what do you want
Speaker 00:for your life?
Speaker 02:And I didn't know, when you hear about these stories and you hear about someone post, my question is often like, how come I get more time?
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:You know, and I mean, I know that's deeply, can be deeply philosophical, but that's always what I'm left with when I'm at a funeral or someone, I've heard someone pass, I go, I get one more day.
Speaker 00:Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. I just think about, thanks for sharing that story about your mom. I know it's quite a personal thing as well for many people, but I think for me as well, I remember that my dad had a quite a big procedure and we weren't quite sure if he would possibly, there was a big chance that he wouldn't make it. And the fact that he was in hospital for practically half the year and having to observe his progress from being in a completely state of not sure what would happen to kind of like, you know, recuperating and getting better. But like you're saying, going day by day and walking in and out of the hospital, And as you walk out, you go, like, I have another chance of life. And you walk in and you see people of all age groups. So it's not a guarantee. You think that, you know, we have until we are 80 or 100 to live. But it's not guaranteed to everyone. And I think if you have that awareness to know that, you know, every day is a gift. Yeah. And we should really take it for what it is. Yeah. Because it's like you said, it's really not guaranteed to everyone. But I think it's a beautiful experience because so often we signify death with, like, a depressive type of conversation. But I love what you said earlier, awakening, because it literally is an awakening
Speaker 02:for
Speaker 00:many people. So I guess it's how you position it in your mind, because if the positioning is incorrect, the outcome will be wrong, what you want from it. So for me, it's like, Just in terms of, again, the conversations that you and I are having, it's really to provoke thoughts. And we hope that it steers people in the right direction. And that's the intention behind it. And also that it's relatable, like you're saying, the authenticity part about it. I know it is a buzzword, authenticity. But I really, again, it's not about proving to people. But it's something that I've seen with you in our years of friendship. It's really something that has organically kind of just emanated from you because of the depth that you've and the encounters you've been through authenticity is not just something that is that you can just kind of like a a cool thing to do.
Speaker 02:Yeah.
Speaker 00:You know, I sometimes think people think it's a cool thing to be authentic now, you know, or a cool thing to say I'm going to go see my therapist.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 00:You know, it's not about we understand the need for therapists. I mean, you yourself are a therapist, but you know what I mean in terms of some people how they position it, you know. So as long as it's for the right reasons, I think that's the important part about it, yeah.
Speaker 02:Yeah, I know. I love that because it's, I almost want to say to people like sometimes authenticity comes with a lot of loss.
Speaker 00:Sure.
Speaker 02:You know, it comes with loss because there's things you have to face you know and if you want to live authentically yeah sometimes that means giving up certain things yeah and sometimes it also means giving up certain relationships you know which is a big part of human connection you know the essence of of the human experience yeah you know and what our podcast is really about you know the human story and is that essentially we are here to be connected to ourselves and to be connected to each other. And so, yeah, I mean, authenticity also then, also on the other side of it, brings to you more authentic connections. I'll put it that way.
Speaker 00:True. And if you're bringing the authentic version of yourself to a situation, it opens up the next person to also react in the same way.
Speaker 02:100%. And it gives you the relationships that, I mean, like the one that you and I
Speaker 00:have.
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:you know, that's built over many years and that you feel safe in. Got you. You know, and feel seen in. And so then life is filled in a different way.
Speaker 00:Got you.
Speaker 02:You know, but yeah, it's all, I think, connected to, I'm thinking about how this feels connected to what it is that you pay attention to.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And so authenticity means that you have to pay attention to your inward state. You have to. You cannot be authentic. Live an authentic life if you are not paying attention to your internal state, that you are aware of it and that you get to know the self from that perspective. Yeah, otherwise it's, again, that word of kind of like you're… You're meandering through life and you're almost just like a passive participant. You mean like
Speaker 00:life's happening to you and not you taking it. I know what you mean.
Speaker 02:Exactly. And I think a great responsibility we can all take is that life happens and we are engaging with it. We are actively participating in that life and making it happen.
Speaker 00:I love also just the last thing from me before I get a wrap up from you too, but I love what you said about, you know, what are you after? There was a course you did a few years ago and it was a Australian guy. I'll never forget. He said like, it speaks about more energy, you know, and also like psycho-spiritual, like whatever you believe in. But he's like, what are you after? And he says, you literally have to say like, what are you actually after? We all know what we don't want.
Speaker 02:Yes.
Speaker 00:But do we actually vocalize and say what it is that we want?
Speaker 02:Yeah. Do we go toward that
Speaker 00:thing? Yeah. Because we were speaking earlier, you know, when we went on the podcast recording, basically saying like, you know, at times you feel guilty for asking for certain things. And those are many reasons for that because of societal norms, whatever the case might be. But literally, what are you after? You know?
Speaker 02:Absolutely. And so I feel like I just want to remind our listeners and ask the question that was at the beginning. What are you paying attention to?
Speaker 00:Yeah. Definitely. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of The Human Story. Fascinating discussion today. And please stay tuned until next time. From myself, Lincoln, we will catch up again.
Speaker 02:And from me, Shamila, we send you greetings and love. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 00:Well, that was The Human Story brought to you by Yolk Media. Stay tuned for more on The Human Story.
Unknown:so