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The Human Story
The Human Story podcast is brought to you by Yoked media hosted by Lincoln & Shaamiela. We love being human and we find the messiness of the Human Story fascinating. Come and join us for an unfiltered exploration of raw and deeply personal conversations. Through authentic storytelling, we dive into the complexities of life, our struggles, victories, and the profound moments that shape us. The series is about connection, resilience, and transformation, reminding us that while life may not be perfect, it can be beautiful. The Human Story is our invitation to listen deeply, reflect honestly, and recognise yourself in the shared experiences of others. These stories remind us that growth is possible, connection is powerful, and every journey no matter how imperfect is worth telling.
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The Human Story
Breath, Voice & Belonging- Embodied Healing with Dr. Sara Matchett
In this soul moving episode of The Human Story, brought to you by Yoked Media. Lincoln & Shaamiela sit with Dr. Sara Matchett currently serving as Associate Professor at the Centre for Theatre, Dance & Performance Studies at the University of Cape Town, a traditional healer-in-training, and lead Fitzmaurice Voicework trainer to explore what it truly means to be human in a world that often feels disconnected.
Dr. Matchett brings us back to the body to breath, voice, softness, and the quiet power of presence. Together, we unpack how the body holds untold stories, how tremor and sound can release what we carry, and how ancestral awareness can restore connection across generations.
This is a conversation about remembering ourselves, shaking free what silences us and returning to belonging to each other, our bodies, and the sacred relationships that make us human.
If you are longing for grounding and a return to relational living, this episode is your invitation home.
We breathe. We tremor. We speak. We belong.
You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all-encompassing human experience.
SPEAKER_01:This is brought to you by Yoke Media.
SPEAKER_02:Well, welcome to another edition of the Human Story with myself Lincoln.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, I'm Shamila. Welcome back.
SPEAKER_02:It's been an interesting time, Shaumi. It has been. Lots have happened in the last couple of weeks. I'm really happy to be here. I want to say the last episode we did on forgiveness. Yeah. I've received a lot of feedback from people, very positive feedback, if I could put it that way, if one could really correlate it to the forgiveness. It's so interesting to me to see how the topic resonated with so many people. One would really think it's quite a deep topic, but you find that many people obviously have struggles in these areas. You know, they're weary, they're struggling to forgive someone in some other aspect, maybe themselves, but we'll get into the topic like we mentioned before.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But John, like from my perspective, it's just been very interesting to see how people have really taken to the episode of forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00:It has been. I think the response for me is more about how you define it. Yeah. And I think how people have understood forgiveness.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I think we all have such different definitions, but also I think the action that we believe has to come with it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and and I think us speaking about the process beneath the decision to forgive is what resonated. And that's the feedback I've been getting. Yeah. Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Very interesting. So here we are on another episode. And today we're really excited because we're introducing, yeah, introducing another voice. This is very symbolic. It's very symbolic because it's our first guest that we're going to introduce to in a few minutes. And because this guest works very, very, very closely with the breath and the voice. And so I'd love to introduce you to Dr. Sarah Matchett. Welcome, Doctor. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Shaman Lincoln. Yeah. Welcome. And we're so excited to have you. Lincoln's been listening to me for weeks go on and on about this. Just about the experience that one has when one is in your presence, Sarah. But maybe let me start with an introduction for our audience and to just give you a background on who Sarah Matchett is. Dr. Sarah Matchett is an award-winning theatre director and associate professor at the Center for Theatre, Dance and Performance Studies at the University of Cape Town. She's also a lead trainer of Fitzmorris Voice Work, the regional coordinator of Fitzmorris Institute for Africa and an advanced breathwork practitioner with Breathwork Africa. As a traditional healer in training, she integrates ancestral wisdom with contemporary healing and creative practices. Sarah's work explores the body as a site for knowing, of knowing and transformation, engaging breath as a catalyst to weave body, voice, and imagination in the fostering of presence, creativity, and healing. Wow. That's a mouthful. It is. It is. And I just want to begin by saying that that's so true of who you are and how one experiences you. And I was just sharing with Lincoln the first time I met you in person. The first time I saw you was with, I think it was a masterclass with Presswork Africa. Online. Yes. Of course. That was the first my introduction to you. I immediately loved you. I immediately felt like your the realness of your energy reached me. And then, yeah, and then we came to your to your home space where you do breathing on the bend. Yes, breathing on the bend. And at that time I was completing my uh portfolio, obviously, to certify. And I was very struck by how deeply present you are immediately, you know, when we introduced ourselves. So yeah, I just wanted to say that and that, yeah, what an honor to have you with us.
SPEAKER_06:What an honor it is to be here for your and to be your first guest. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's so wonderful. I wanted to actually just maybe as a starting point. So this is really, as we said, you know, it's about yes, the work that you do and what you can share with our listeners and our audience, but it's also about getting to know the human being beneath that work and you know what powers that individual and what inspires them and what keeps you going, you know, with all of that. So maybe I want to begin by asking you, not about your work, actually, and ask you what is it like for you to be a human in this era of humanity?
SPEAKER_06:Gosh. Especially in this age of AI, this age, this age of of kind of global wars, genocides. I think that we are we really need to connect with what it means to be human. Human or the humaneness of the human. So for me, what does it mean? It means staying connected uh to people. And so one of the things that's really important and one of the ways that I think that helps me to stay connected is through my connection with my family. Uh we we cook together, we sit around our round dining room table every evening, we eat together, we talk, we share what happened in the day, we talk about seemingly frivolous things, we talk about difficult things, there are many tears that you know that uh are shed around that table. There's much laughter. And I think, you know, my partner and I are raising an 18-year-old and a 21-year-old, both at first year university. And a few years ago, they one of them came home and said to us while we were sitting around the dining room table, sharing our meal, how they shared with us how grateful they are to be able to have this in their lives. I think, and they said it all makes sense to us now. We didn't quite understand it before. We also didn't allow them to have mobile phones until they were 15. That was dialectic in terms of peer pressure. But they now get it. They now understand. So they're at the age where they can come back and say, we understand the choices, right? And so it was lovely to get that feedback. We we understand, and we're so grateful that we have this, and that we don't, you know, that we can have a cooked meal and have conversations because a lot of their friends were eating takeouts in their bedrooms, you know, and and so there wasn't that space for relationality. And so I think that cultivating that relationality for me is about being a human in this body here and now. And I think one of the other things that has become increasingly important for me since I was called to become a traditional healer and on this healing journey, this training journey, yeah. Is the the relationality and and connection with our ancestors. You know, every morning uh I get on my knees and I'm I'm I talk to my ancestors. Sure. I talk to them because they are just here. Yeah. They are just here. You know, the veil is very thin. Yes. And so this idea, this this this the the the the the the philosophy of sankkofa, you know, the Twi, Ghanaian Twi philosophy of Sankkofa, where you go back to to the past to to fetch the wisdom, bring it into the present, and make sense of it in the present to to to sh kind of open up the future, is really important for me. So those those relational uh conversations that I have every morning. And then family and and and family in our home is a very is very porous. So it's a very porous word. Yeah. Because we have many people who live with us and are in and out of our homes who we consider family, who are not blood family. Yeah, so what is it? I I guess to come back to the question, what does it mean to me? It means being relational. A relational being in a body. And and so and it it's it's being in this this body and being kind of connected to my body and my breath that tethers me to my humanness, to my humanity.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. That is profound. It's so so interesting to me because um Sarah Shamel and I, we always speak about a common thread throughout our podcast. And I mean it is the human story, but we always speak about like the relational part about life because we feel it's such an important component that is actually kind of been lost if if you really talk about it. I think it's the narratives are driven through fear. I mean, if you look at sort of the West and some of the government systems and you see a division amongst people, I think the relational part and just having empathy with people and like you're saying having conversations with family, whatever family like looks like to you, whether it's immediate family. But I love the fact that you spoke about relationality because for us that's so important because I think we've actually lost a large part of that in humanity, and because it's uh us and them causes a lot of division. So it's it's so I don't know what the word is encouraging to hear that you have this conversation at your table.
SPEAKER_00:I was sorry, I just saw a reel last night, and there was in the background of the person who was speaking. I he actually his page is actually called Humanity Archives, which is interesting. And he talks about you know the history that we were never taught and and how we've also lost our humanity and how we treat each other because of that lost history. And one of the the the quote behind him said that it's by Terence. I'm human, so nothing human can be alien to me. Yeah, it's just what you said just made me reflect on this idea that no human can be alien to you. Yeah. And so family goes beyond blood. Yes. It is it absolutely goes beyond blood. Like I feel that.
SPEAKER_06:It's so interesting. I was just as you were talking, I was thinking about just kind of expanding on this idea of family going beyond blood. In the in the in the in uh the the our IP at law, the sch the the school that I'm being trained as a traditional healer in. Yes, you we refer to each other as brothers and sisters. So I have I have an older sister and three, a younger brother and two younger sisters, and that's how you refer to one another. It's like a family. It's a show. It's the whole school is structured on family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_02:I wonder, um, um, I saw that you obviously won an award, a creative award for Womb of Fire. Yes. When you speak about how we hold on to past experiences and some of the work you've done in South Africa and Africa as a whole, South of Africa. But in terms of those, like, you know, you speak about the the body being a site of stories, some of the work that you've done, more on the experiential part. How have you seen some of the work that you've done in your own experiences and and the work that you do do? How does that show up in people's bodies?
SPEAKER_06:So I think I think our experiences are stored in the body. I mean, I think we kind of, you know, at a cellular level. And and it was actually through my training to become a FitzMorris voice work teacher. And so I'm I'm as Shamila mentioned at the beginning, I'm a I'm a lead trainer of FitzMorris Voice Work, named after the person who founded FitzMorris Voice Work, Catherine FitzMorris. I realized when I was doing my training, I how much yeah, the the body holds the score, right? Yeah. It's like I realized I actually felt that in my body. And then what started happening when I was we part of the training was to make a solo performance. And I when I was doing the work, which focuses a lot on breath and entering a a state of generative chaos, if I want to put it that way. To could kind of move, to unlock the patterns and habits and tensions that have been kind of held in the body or accumulated in the body over the years. I it was kind of we work with the breath to to move these surface, not move, surface and then move these these patterns and habits and tensions. I realized that I was I started to to s to see images quite vividly. Okay. And and and and and I became curious about this. Yes. So I I ended up doing a whole PhD on it. Okay. Amazing. And I then started working with a healer friend of mine who said, Well, why don't I why don't you do this and then free write? Free wrote, and then and then she said, I said, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna circle the images that jump out at me. And then I'm gonna give you these images and and you read them back to me while I do this destructuring sequence, is what we call it. And then I'm gonna speak, I'm gonna free speak because I don't think this free writing takes too much time. So I I would free speak and then she'd record me on a phone or whatever. Yeah. And I it was like stuff that was coming out, and I was like, oh, yes, it's in my body. But then I realized it's not only of it's not only my stuff, but I think it's possibly stuff of my ancestors that is living in my body. That that you know, we now we know we've kind of epigenetically, yes, our ancestral experiences, the experiences of our ancestors live in our bodies, right? Yeah, so that I these things were coming out. Yeah. So so I I think this is a long, long story to answer your question. I think that if you were to think of a buck out in the wild, yeah. And I th I think uh Peter Levine and Waking the Tiger writes about this, right? Yes. A buck senses danger. Maybe there's a lion in the in the in the hood. The buck is not gonna fight because it's gonna lose, right? Yes. It may put foot and run, it may take flight, but it may also freeze. So let's say the buck goes with the freeze option. Hopefully the lion passes, the danger passes. Yeah, buck, that is. What does the buck do? The buck gets up, the buck shakes itself out, it tremors and continues eating the grass. What do we do? We we hold.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, we do. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:And the in uh in the holding, yes, and we're told not to tremor, in fact. Yes. Stop it. Stop it, stop it, keep still, right? Because the the tremor is the body's uh natural way of bringing it the nervous system back into a state of balance. We tremor to when we're cold, when we're excited, when we're hungry, when we you know fearful. But it's it's the way of bringing the nervous system back into balance. And we are told no, don't. And so we hold. And in that holding, we create those holding patterns in our bodies. So we accumulate these stresses and tensions and and they become new patterns.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:So, yes. So often when we release those, they come with images and stories. And I think those patterns are also sometimes inherited from our ancestors as well.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. So maybe we come into the world with certain patterns.
SPEAKER_02:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And do you think we're meant to do anything with what we receive from the ants from our ancestors? Yes. Okay. Yes.
SPEAKER_06:And uh, but I think it depends on what you receive. But sometimes the messages are very direct. Okay. Okay. And you will know. Right. And you'll know what to do as well. You will know what to do because if you go and do the stuff, if there's something held in your body, right, if you are feeling a particular pain in your I don't know, your spine, maybe. Yes, yes. If if it comes if you if if it's it comes to you, uh-uh, this is my grandmother on my father's side, right? She is telling you something. You need to listen. Right. Okay. And then you need to do something. It's not enough just listening. Yes. And in he in healing that, in doing something, you are healing your grandmother. Okay. Yes. Not just yourself. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. This idea that we the healing goes backward and forward, right?
SPEAKER_06:So the pain manifests if it's if you get a clear sense that this is not of me, that it's of my ancestors. Someone in the past, yeah. You could you by healing yourself, you're healing them.
SPEAKER_00:I love that idea. And the again, the connection between us and I feel like again, there's there's this we we pretend to be these hard, tough individuals. And we believe we have a tough exterior, but if you touch yourself, you're soft. Yeah. So that's that's an interesting thing for me to just reflect on is that you actually have a very soft skin. Nobody actually has a tough skin. And and this is how we walk around. And as you say, with those stories that live and exist in us, and they come through, as we've just experienced, Lincoln and I.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Through the breath, you know, through how you hold it in the body. So I wanted to just reflect on Lincoln and I just did a practice. And so this was an incredible precursor to our interview. Is we did the would you would would you mind explaining what it is that we did?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. So we we did two of the positions, or as they're sometimes called, efforts of the Fitz Morris voice work destructuring sequence. Okay. Which is uh which is about uh it's kind of a combination of of of yoga, shiyatsu, and bioenergetic. Sure. So you you invite a tremor. Yes. Uh and you allow that tremor to to move through the body. So you allow it to affect the breath, you allow the breath to move the tremor through the body, and you allow whatever you're feeling in your body to be expressed into the space, into the exterior world through voice. So it's it's a way of of of of surfacing these tensions, patterns, habits, so that they can move, be moved through the body, so that you can create energetic space in the body, so that you so that energy can flow, so that breath can flow, so that voice can flow, so that you can become your whole body becomes resonating chamber, which means you can touch people energetically. So you don't you move from being a talking head to a resonating body. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And it was incredible how much space, I don't know. I mean, for both Lincoln and I, how we've how we felt after, and we did a very short practice. How much space I felt, and then you had applied some pressure, uh, which is just what is it, just beneath my collarbone. And then the tremor that came through my body, and I my realization was that part of that is is a judgment, a block, maybe.
SPEAKER_06:Sometimes we we we armor ourselves, and sometimes we have to armor ourselves. But I think it's about understanding when it's o okay to not armor ourselves. Yes. When we can let that go.
SPEAKER_00:So I wanted to just reflect on that and and ask you to speak about that is something that we often practice in somatic release, emotional regulation. I mean, there's mantras, which is, you know, repetition. So I wanted to ask you to just talk a little bit about the voice, breath, and sound. Yeah. Because what you introduced was sound in the practice. Why do we include sound?
SPEAKER_06:The voice as sound. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Why do we include it?
SPEAKER_06:So so breath is uh voice is breath, right? Voice is breath. It's the vocal folds when they are closed and when we push the breath through the vocal folds, they vibrate, they create voice. So my understanding is that what the voice does when you when you when the vo when the breath transitions into voice, it brings us to a tangible sense of breath in the body. We can feel the breath in the body. And so when we feel the breath in the body, it connects us to our uh internal worlds. It's it's it's it develops our interception, right?
SPEAKER_05:Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_06:And I I find that sometimes it's a little uh challenging or less tangible when you're working just with the breath. When you when you bring the voice into the practice, and and and the tremor, but the tremor work does bring you into like it brings you into your and when you bring the voice in, it's the voice is moving that energy. It kind of gives power. I see the voice as like powering the breath. It amplifies if I can use it. It amplifies the breath, right? The breath's ability to to surface and to undo those habits, patterns, intentions. That's the way that I I see it and feel it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I'm just from what you're saying, I'm I'm almost understanding it as the the breath gives or the voice gives the breath a form. Yes, a kind of form. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. And it's and it's making me think about, you know, how how the voice then comes through the body in the diff there's so many different forms it does take, you know, if for our listeners to just think about like, and I mean this is obviously central to your work, whether you're talking from yeah, or you're talking from yeah, or you know.
SPEAKER_06:So you we talk about vocal dynamics, right? Yes. And so the the and if I could just put the three kind of pillars of vocal dynamics are pitch, pace, and volume. Yes. And then you break them down. So your pitch is what you talked about. But we have the res what we call resonance bands in the body. So you have that belly band or the cow band, like that when that or or a sumo wrestler. Yes, yes, yes. Then you have a chest band. Yes. Which would be your actor. Okay. Right, I'm here. I'm warm, I'm yeah, you know. You can at warm voice. And then this you know, you can move to the throat, the mouth, the nasal cavities, the top of the head. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02:All I want for Christmas, all right.
SPEAKER_06:And so so if you can, if you can exp expand your range. There's something else I want to say now, just now about that and how it translates into life. But just it gives you it so it it it it it it it speaks to this idea of vocal dynamics. You have a more dynamic voice. Pitch, pace. So sometimes we speed up. Yes. Sometimes we need to really slow down. Yes. And that has to do with breath rhythm. Sometimes when you take a breath in, the thought takes a little longer to get to you. Yes. Sometimes it's immediate. Yes. So so breathing is meaning. So every thought has a breath. And sometimes thought is immediate, sometimes it's around the corner, sometimes it's far away. So pauses, right? And how we use our vowels. And I mean, there's so much of so the vowels are like the if we have to think of a river or like the water in a river, the consonants are like the river banks. So the vowels are like are are are the ex give emotional expression to words. The consonants are the create the form, right? The form and the flow again. Yes. And so how you use the consonants, right? And I'm deliberately playing with it. Or the vowels. So you can play with pace, uh, and then volume, you know. So so this gives the voice a dynamic, which um makes it more inviting. It invites the listener in. Yes. But there's something I wanted to come back to when I was pausing there, saying I'm there. I recently, last year, I did some work at the Roy Hart voice center in in France, in south of France, at a place called Malarag. Roy Hart, interestingly enough, was South African. Okay. He left in South Africa in 1948. His parents didn't want him to study theater. He came from a very orthodox Jewish family, didn't want him to study theater. He left, he went to study theatre at Rada in London.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:But then, I think if my memory serves me, didn't he left Ryder and started doing voice work with a man by the name of A. W. Wolfson, who was a psych psychologist who worked with voice and the healing voice, really. And what Wolfson was exploring was how to expand our range, we need to expand our we need to, I think he reached five octaves. He people who worked with him were able to expand uh explore a range of five octaves. Okay. So that's quite a lot. And Roy Hart then took this work and worked with actors and increased that range to eight octaves. Wow. So I did I did work with him. It was so liberating.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_06:So this how when you are able to expand your range and and and the range of eight octaves is huge. I don't know if I I didn't get to eight octaves. But I I my range certainly felt huge. Yeah. How it translates into to life and your ability to be expansive in the world. Yes. Right. So it's yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I think that brings me to the next question, and it's it's kind of more practical question. If someone out there is listening and they go, you know, they're struggling to find their voice both literally and metaphorically, you know, what is a common thing, kind of a practical thing that someone can do if they felt they've lost their voice.
SPEAKER_06:Start with breath. Okay. That's your starting point. Really understanding how we came into the world breathing is important. So really understanding the the mechanics of breathing. Okay. And breathing optimally. And now this is this is something I say a lot.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:We came into the world breathing optimally and voicing optimally. Have you ever heard of a baby losing their voice? No.
SPEAKER_02:In my household, they think he knows. No.
SPEAKER_06:So we know we know how we know how to use our voices, we know how to Breathe. But of course, when we encounter the worlds, when we get put behind a desk, eight, five, six. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:Those patterns start to be formed. Right. And so we start uh it inhibits optimal breathing. It inhibits optimal vocal support. Okay. And that's when we start speaking from our from our throats. We start straining.
SPEAKER_04:And with that, that very strident voice. It's quite hard to listen to somebody who's speaking to you from their throat, right? Yes, it is. Yes.
SPEAKER_06:It's not connected to their bodies at all. Okay. So it's remember. Go and watch a lion roaring.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:A dog barking. It'll tilt it'll tell you, it'll remind you how you came into the world.
SPEAKER_02:A baby, I mean, it's the most I love, I love watching my baby sleep at times. I can just see that synchronicity of the breath.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:It's it's it's it's like a lullaby, literally.
SPEAKER_04:And the whole when the baby when a baby breath breathes, that whole body torso moves, right? Not just the chest. And when the baby cries, you know.
SPEAKER_06:It's like a what's those those those instruments. Yeah, cosetina. Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_06:And the lion, say, what a lion roaring. It's quite incredible. Yeah. It's right down that transverse abdominis is what is powering and supporting the voice and the body.
SPEAKER_02:I I um often wonder, you mentioned earlier, like if you look at a wild animal, if they're activated, you can see how they go into flight mode, but then very soon thereafter they can restore themselves to the sympathetic state.
SPEAKER_05:Yes. Parasitic.
SPEAKER_02:Whereas it's interesting to me, is it is it our cognitive processes that doesn't prohibit us as human beings? I think so. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:I think so. We're clever, no? It's a clever flying cut. So what we do is we stop that process. Okay. Right. We we we short circuit that process. So what the the example of the tremor, because the the impulse is to tremor, right? But we short circuit it.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_06:And then it becomes locked in the body.
SPEAKER_00:It does. And it's it's quite profound when you when you discover that, because I also discovered that through breath, you know, for myself, just reflecting on again how how everything was just held so tightly. And then the letting go, but then of course, with the letting go.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because when you need to, when you have to let go of those stories, you're faced with something very different. And you now have to be almost, I want to say like the creator of something different, you know, and what you I guess drew on for that. Yeah, I'm just wondering about that process because there is a there's a creativity, obviously, through your work, you know. I I think that's that underpins everything you do. Yeah. Is the creative element of the human being. And we spoke a little bit when we did our short practice with you, and you were mentioning play as well. Yeah, like the human being and play and the creative process. What are your thoughts and feelings around that?
SPEAKER_06:So I'm gonna be a little anecdotal now. I've just come out of making a performance called An Apprenticeship with Sorrow, and it's taken from one of Francis Weller's chapters called in the book The Wild Edge of Sorrow. Oh, incredible book. And so An Apprenticeship with Sorrow is one of the chapters. And the the the performance is really it explores personal and planetary grief. And the personal is really around the loss, living with and losing a parent to dementia. And Nina, my partner, also her father also died of dementia, as did my mum. My mum lived with us for four years and she she died at the end of 2023. And so this performance was this we made this performance for many reasons. But primarily I think it was to we had been in like logistics mode for so long. Making sure that the carers are there in place, making sure the medication is there, making sure mom's comfortable, mom couldn't talk, mom couldn't walk, mom couldn't see, but you're in this kind of logistics mode. And so when both our parents had died, we were like, huh, yeah, we are, hello. And it had been like since 23, since 2013, sorry, when the beginning of our relationship. We'd lived with this all the time. So it was like, okay.
SPEAKER_04:Let's make a play. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And partly also because Nina's studying doing a PhD around the connection between the kind of art and science and in relation to sustainability. So so it it's also the first chapter of her PhD. Okay, you know. But there was this impulse to make a play, to for us to be able to get on the floor and play. And and it as as challenging as the material is, there's a lot of play in it in the work. Yes. And it was just magical to be able to create together. And not be in that, you know, and be as wild, as wild as we wanted to be in terms of our imaginations. And so but the other thing related to that was, and it's it speaks back to what we were talking about, how how experiences get locked in the body. When I f first started doing uh we started making the work, I used to get these pains at the back of my head, terrible pains. Back of my neck into my head, like stuck. I felt stuck. Doing this work and being witnessed by an audience and telling the story over and over again, it went away. Wow. Gone. Yeah. So moving the story so through voice, through breath, and by and when you're telling the you're speaking, and we were performing, so we had to be on support and have a lot of people. Yes, and in your body, and to be able to play my mom, and it was just it was just one of the the things our director did was he said, Well, something that's missing is um conversations with your parents that you could never have. Wow because of the dementia. Yeah. So he said, You go away and Sarah, you you answer as Papa Cedric, Nina's father, and Nina, you ask answers Mama Denny, Nina, and ask the questions. Which we did. And those and in a way, one audience member said it was like and this speaks back to the how our bringing our ancestors into the present. Yes. How we gave our parents agency. Wow. You know. Bye. Bye. We answered we answered the questions, you know. It's like they were talking through us. And and also this the the the PhD work that I mentioned earlier of of asking each other questions and doing the destructuring tremor work and then free speaking. It was uh both Nean and I had two separate experiences where our parents, it was like our parents, we were channeling our parents. So those bits of text are in the performance verbatim. Wow, okay. Yeah. So it it it's but but we needed to create that space to make the play. And in making the play, we played and we were creative and we cried and we did all the things.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:Wow. So yeah. So this is my most recent experience. I'm always telling people to play this, and I'm doing it myself. And I did it. I did it.
SPEAKER_00:Ha, okay, yeah, all right. But I'm really struck by the witnessing. Yeah. Or witnessing as witnessing. Witnessing. Witnessing. Yeah, with so, you know, the yeah, the witnessing and the witnessing. I'm so struck by that. And us telling our story as human beings to each other and really sharing in that way. And then of course, linked to that is this deep presence, you know, which I think I said you you really you really embody for me. And so you feel very real, you know, when one is in your presence. I mean, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I'm just struck by the witness, the witnessing and the presenting aspect.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. That's why theatre for me, theater and performance is medicine. Potentially. Not all theater and performance. But I think it it can be medicine. When the last time I performed, I mean, wait, the last time I spoke text, because I've done other kind of performance arty things in between. The last time I spoke text was in 2001 or or three, I can't remember. And my in 1995, my my sister, who was just 33, died of cancer. And I needed to make a performance. So it took me five, six, eight, seven, eight years to make the performance, to tell the story. Okay. And I had the same experience. So by telling that story over and over and again over, it wasn't about me holding the things in my body, but it was about I could never speak about, I couldn't speak about my sister without crying prior to performing and making that that play. After, I could speak about her without crying. And I could find that, you know, and so it was a different experience. This one that was in my body, like my mom's stuff was in my body. Yes. But with the other one, it was my own pain around the loss of my sister. And I made the performance. Yeah. And something shifted. Big healing work.
SPEAKER_00:It's yeah, and again, just brings me back to this idea that I think worldwide people are more actively working with, which is moving the energy from the internal space outward.
SPEAKER_05:And then allowing it back in as well. Yes. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00:Letting it back in. And then so you can live differently with it.
SPEAKER_06:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Because it doesn't go away.
SPEAKER_05:No.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, but there's a transformation that you change your relationship with it. Ah, love that. Yes. That's weird. It doesn't necessarily change. No. Change your relationship with it. So that you it can live differently in you. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:No, I really believe that people that are artistic and creative are really the leaders in the world. If you look at Steve Jobs, he was asked once, you know, do your do your kids also have an iPad? And do I mean he says, no, I you know, I love creating and coming up with a concept, and we have people, very clever people that do it. But myself and my kids, when we sit at a dinner table, we talk about art. There you go. The creativity. There you go. So the people that are leaders in any position in the world are really people that are creatives.
SPEAKER_06:And I think we all are creative, actually. Yes. If we just allow ourselves to be very true.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:In whatever way. It may be through cooking, it may be through dancing, it may be through whatever.
SPEAKER_00:What do you think that's about though? Because I'm pretty sure you've heard this before. So many people out there saying, Oh, but you know I'm not the creative kind. I'm not artistic. What is that about?
SPEAKER_06:I I mean I think like if you look at nature, right? Nature is is creative. It's creative. Its basis is creativity.
SPEAKER_00:It's like constantly creative.
SPEAKER_06:So I think our our biggest wound is the wound of separation and how we have separated ourselves from the ecosystem of life, really. Yes. The larger ecosystem of life. So when we separate, and what is that? What is that? That's industrialization, that's capitalism, that's that's colonialism, that's all of that, right? Yes. So but patriarchy, all of that. So when we identi, you know, I think when we identify as other and not part of it's it's not easy to be creative. Yes. You know, I think but when we start to see ourselves as part of a larger ecosystem, which is inherently creative, we do are then creative. Yes. In whatever however it manifests, you know, there's no creativity doesn't look a particular way. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And and I mean, I've been reading a lot about and seeing a lot of stuff as well around identifying with the ecosystem. So understanding that you are it and it is you. You know, I'm sure you've seen side-by-side pictures of the fingerprint with the tree trunk and the, you know, the lungs and the trees. And so can we talk a little bit more about I'm gonna go back to your bio, that you have a particular interest in embodied practices that focus on presencing, co-sensing, collaborating, and co-generating as a way of transforming ecosystems to ecosystems.
SPEAKER_06:Yes. So that's borrowed from from Otto Sharma of the presence process. He talks about he talks about this. And that's exactly what we've said now. Okay. So when we are living in when we are we are separate ourselves from the larger ecosystem of life with water body from, you know, we separate ourselves from water bodies, plants, animals, insects, you know, mountains, landscapes, we enter into the that ego system space. Yes. The space of the individual, the space of capitalism. But when we allow ourselves, so it's exactly what you you've said, when we allow ourselves to to actually experience that we are part of the larger ecosystem of life, that's when we we tap into the ecosystem.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I think my my question I'd have for the everyday person that is struggles to to find a space to to be present with the commitments of life. How do they how do they get to a space if they a family and they've got three kids, young kids, and they the intention is to to to want to be more present. How do they find that space to actually to be more present so that they they can be part partake more in an ecosystem than than driving the egosystem?
SPEAKER_06:I think it starts with it's gonna sound contrary and contradictory now, with discipline actually. Sure. This because I think discipline is a thing in all traditional practices as well. There's a there's a discipline, there's a form, right? You don't just do something like that. There's a particular form and there's a reason for that form. Yeah. So and it's about finding a practice. And so whatever that practice may be, let me use breath work as an example because that's what I do, what I teach, yes, and what Shamler does. Yes. Take bookend your day your days with five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the evening doing a breath work of practice or practices. You may find that you want to do something in the middle of the day or at four o'clock as well. But if you can just bookend your day, right? And and and and commit to that. That's where the discipline comes in. Yes. Yes. You'll find that probably 40 days later you have created a new habit. Okay. Yes. But you've also I don't think it's about creating a new habit. I think it's about remembering an old habit.
SPEAKER_02:Are you what you're saying?
SPEAKER_06:And you'll probably find that you want that five minutes will increase to ten minutes. And then I like to see it as a rehearsal for reality.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:So if you bookend your day, so you do the practices to f to rehearse, to stay with the the kind of theater jargon. Yeah. Yes. For when you need it in the day.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:Because you what are you doing? You you you're developing your breath's intelligence. Yes. Gotcha. So the BQ, right? Yes. We know about EQ. I mean, there's a BQ as well. And so you're developing your breath's intelligence. So the breath's intelligence can kick in when it needs to in the day, when you need to be in your body and present.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_06:But it takes time, right? Because we are so disconnected.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:We are so far from that small baby that came into the world. Yeah. So we need to also be patient with ourselves and not expect that it's gonna happen in three days.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that actually makes me very keen on on sort of my next curiosity is very key to our it's one of the principles of our podcast is to just stay curious and but to stay curious humans and that's an internal process as well as an external process. I'm just wondering though, like what does embody curiosity look like?
SPEAKER_06:So I yeah, I think it's about being curious about what you're feeling, what sensations are arising in the body. Yes. And not necessarily trying to box it or name it and give it a story. I think it's about, oh, ooh, I'm feeling like my my stomach is whirling around like a tornado. And not go, oh, it must be so resist the temptation to go into the story in the head.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:That goes round and round and round like a like a on a loop machine. Yes. But on a loop. Yes. And so that what it that's just a story in the head. But if you're able to be curious about, oh, oh my gosh, and now it's moving to my left knee. And so follow that. And so the curiosity opens up the space for energy to move as well. And then just follow that movement. Oh okay. And so what you're doing then, that's this is also the work of Michael Brown, the presence process. I'm not too sure if you're familiar with his work. He's a South African. Okay. Somewhat. Yeah. Yeah. And so how you you you stay with the sensations in the body and you you become curious about that. And resist, as I said earlier, the temptation to go into the story in the head. Yes. Because then you get you get stuck in your head. And you just go around and round and round like a hamster. But this thing of being curious about the sensations in the body is what also uh assists to move the energy. To move the energy so that you can change your relationship with whatever that is happening in the body. The story actually doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00:Right? I feel like you need to say that again. Yes. Because it's I I don't know, like I find that mindfulness is such a it's so fundamental to the way that I work in my practice as well. And so my clients already know. I knew you were gonna ask me that question. What's the question? Tell me what the story is. And then tell me what's actually going on. Yeah. Because they're not the same thing, usually. Yeah. Which is interesting because we're so convinced of that story. Yes.
SPEAKER_06:You know, we're so convinced. And that story was probably that feeling in the body is probably, and again, this is with thanks to Michael Brown, was probably formed in our first seven years. Right? Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Yes. Yes. But then it becomes a whole other thing. Yeah. Yes, it's taken on a life of its own.
SPEAKER_06:Taken on a life of its own. So so yeah. So when we become attached to that story, we also don't really allow space for the other to come in.
SPEAKER_02:Very true.
SPEAKER_00:That's absolutely true. And and sorry, I'm just reflecting that I I work with couples as well. And so I'm often asking, tell me what the story is, and then tell me what's actually happening here. And and I you watch people hold on to that story because I want this to be true about you. Yeah. And how that exactly, like you say, disconnects. Yeah. That's it's very subtle. Yeah. It can be very subtle, this disconnect that we feel. And I'm also, again, trying to cut coming back to what you were talking about with regards to, you know, the ecosystem versus the ecosystem, that idea of separation and how we subtly these subtle forms of separation and subtle forms of of disconnect. I'm just wondering, what have you noticed in working with people? What is what does that look like? You know, those subtle forms of deck di disconnection and then also separation. What have you observed?
SPEAKER_06:I mean, I work with a lot with young people at university level. And it's imperative that we work with the body. Yes. Because the voice the voice is the body. Yes. It's not separate from the body. The breath is the body. Yes. Separate. And I find that it is a there's a you know, initially there's a such a disconnect. And there's an an inner and a fear actually around connecting with the body. Because of of of you know technology and you know, if you think of if you're sitting on your cell phone and the posture of sitting on the cell That's actually I'm also do a lot of work around breath and emotions, and I work with the Sanskrit system of rasa performance. It's an old over 2,000-year-old system, which if the key emotions or the sensations, the rasa is the sensation of an emotion, uh can be accessed through the breath. So each emotion has a primary emotion in this. The rasa system has a breath pattern, the direction of the breath, so the rhythm of the breath, the direction of the breath, and placement. So this what if you're on your cell phone, you're you collapse in the center, your shoulders are rounded. That is the posture of sadness. All right. Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:In the system over 2,000-year system of Russell, right? So I'm like, okay.
SPEAKER_06:So there's there's a lot of kind of a closed, disconnected body. And also your diaphragm is tight, and then the breath can't move. And so when we I start to do the work that that we did a little bit of the Fitzmaris voice work, and I only do that in third year once we've done a whole lot of other work in other ways of resonance work, actually. Like feeling the breath in the body through the voice. People, the the students become it's it can be quite overwhelming when they start to feel it's quite scary.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:And overwhelming. Because they're feeling. So that's it's be my my my this the disconnect is real. And I think more than ever in this world we need to be connected to our bodies. Yes. Because how can we ha possibly have empathy if we cannot feel that's it?
SPEAKER_00:That's absolutely it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So it's it's this work is so important with young people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:All people, but I think we all are of different generations, yeah, in this room. But we also I all of us are part of a generation where there wasn't computers and apps and cell phones.
SPEAKER_04:Generation X. Yes. We remember that.
SPEAKER_00:I mean And resilient, eh? Yeah. It was like we were the barefoot in the street children.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so like we have a memory of that. And that lives within us. This generation of children don't have that.
SPEAKER_06:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm thinking about the remembering, go back and fetch.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? Sank Kofa. And and we have something to go back to. We can go and fetch that. And yeah, and so our kids of this day and age, and I mean, I also have teenagers, and they don't know a world without it. Although we've also tried. And you know, it's such encouragement that you said they only had cell phones at 15, you your daughters. That it's you know, that I'm also doing that. I'm trying to delay that as long as I can. And books, read books, books.
SPEAKER_06:Yes. We would we would go out we would go out to a coffee shop or for lunch or whatever. And children at other tables would be on their iPads or whatever pad. Yes. Yeah. Our girls would take out their books. Actual books. How refreshing? Yeah. Yeah. And read. And so and I think it's instilled something in them. The one is studying fine art, the other theater, you know. So they're in the in that space of creativity and making with bodies, you know. So I think it's quite important to actually, and and and you you'll you'll get a lot of resistance. Yeah. But it's worth it. It's worth actually being bad somebody. Oh, I'm so glad you said that. Yeah, no, at the because they'll come back and say thank you. Okay. Yes. I'm looking forward to that. But you have to ride out those years of you being like just the worst person, cruel, all of that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like there's there's so much discomfort you have to sit through. Yes. Yeah. You know, and this is a big part of conscious parenting. Lincoln and I often talk about it. Is is just, you know, even as we speak about the body and being aware of the body, it's the consciousness of it. It's the consciousness of the breath that matters. And so that almost feels like the word, you know, constantly being in relationship with your consciousness. Yes. You know. Yeah, it's it's a profound thing.
SPEAKER_02:It's very true, Shamla says, about kind of being very conscious in how you raise your kids. There are times when you're at that threshold where you're not sure how you're going to react to your child. And it's like taking that breath and realizing you go either way. Be conscious about that. And we spoke about it just before we came on the podcast before you arrived today, saying how incredibly hard it is, but hopefully it'll be very rewarding one day that you've chosen to take a different stance with your kids. If I look at it now, a sport was very important in my household, and kind of your identity was defined on how well you did at sports. Yet with my son, I'm trying to encourage reading a lot, especially at nighttime, taking time aside. And I can see how that spurred his curiosity, imagination, and kind of allowing him to find his own space in the world and really just being a proponent of supporting him through that journey. And I can really see at a very young age how his imagination has just run wild.
SPEAKER_06:Reading to your children is key. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:But I love the far part of you saying how important creativity is and playfulness.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, of course. They didn't read too much. They were nice. They were read too. I love that. It's you know, yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Those not much sport. Sure. Yeah. But there's other ways I think they learn to be in the body, right? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And they did silks actually.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:Climbing those silk things and doing most intricate maneuvers. Yeah. And like a strategy. Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. Yeah, you're just so aware of how I want to say like it's this canvas, you know, and this incredible artwork that could be made. And I often think, I mean, well, at least, you know, through doing my own shadow work and becoming aware of like you know not projecting onto my children which is very hard as a parent but just how incredibly again just naturally creative they are and deeply intelligent they are just naturally because we almost think of these things as I don't know mechanical stuff we need to develop within our kids there's almost a mistrust that they all they come with it they come with it into the world and this canvas can be theirs to make as they want it you know whatever and however that looks and I have to say like you know besides the challenging days when I feel irritated or you know at my wit's end I I'm fascinated by that aspect of being I want to say like a custodian of this human the soul in the world I mean there's that Khalil Kibrans right yes your children or that sweet honey in the rock put that to music that's you must um yes listen to it as well it's I think I just want to ask from your work you've done in in Africa, what are some of the cultural practices that they kind of do in the community that you feel maybe is lacking in the West to reconnect you to the body and that you've maybe seen in your experiences of of doing some work in Africa?
SPEAKER_06:Well we'll be right here in Cape Town. Yeah in I have experienced in in in Colombia in in ceremony You dance and you sing and you cancer. So cancer is to is to is a particular way of dancing where the ball of your foot and the heel hit the ground and and you move in a circle and you sing and there is a drum echo. And like the San Trance Dance it wakes up that energy, that life force by moving in a way you're kind of waking it and it it moves that energy through the body. Okay. So it opens up space. Yeah similarly I I have a PhD student who's doing his corrections he's just about to submit his library copy he's from Ghana he's from the Anlo Ewe.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:Uh and the the term Cecilelame is actually Anlo Ewe, which I mean has been translated the Cesilelame is translated into feel feel at flesh inside and I had the privilege of working with him in Ghana in Accra. Okay in the the botanical gardens uh on his PhD project which really was around designing what he this is what he's called it designing a regenerative African performance making process. And he's gone to his Anlow Airway practices and he worked with the priests from the Anlow Airway tradition. So and I had I had I was it was very I felt very very honored to have experienced this with Elicim and to have met the priests and worked with them and to also understand Cecil I mean a little bit more. So I think in most in most traditions that still embrace or or or indigenous wisdoms and knowledge you will find embodied practices that wake up the life force. Yeah you know that um whether it's through chanting, whether it's through moving whether it's through gummy it's it's it's there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I'm I'm and as you share that again I'm just reminded of a willingness to remember that you know maybe it's about our willingness to remember to get curious about you know what tradition existed within your family, within your lineage like go remember you know and and I think as you were saying like you speak to the ancestors you know the you go and commune.
SPEAKER_06:It's a very interesting thing this because I you know when I was told that I I have a calling and it's from my grandmother on my father's side and like I she had a gift of healing and wasn't able to for various reasons now it's landed on me. And I was like but why am I being why this form I'm not you know I'm not I'm not easy closer. Yeah why this form and my teacher said do not question your ancestors they have brought you to me they have brought you here and so over over time we've had conversations around this and I think because you know I have the my Celtic roots are there but I have no connection with my Celtic roots. Like what so this is where I am right now in the world and so the the form I'm learning the form and it's a form. Gotcha it's a form. Gotcha so so because I really was like why I'm like this um lung what am I doing don't question they have brought you here yes and you need to understand the form so that you can do the healing works that you have been that has been passed on to you. Yes you know so yeah trust the the wisdom of the ones who have lived lifetimes yeah so even if it's you can't find like I where must tray where what did they what did my Celtic ancestors do? I have no I have no concept with it. But what's here yes right and so there's a bigger some people may say it's appropriation. I don't know that's a big conversation. And but um I mean I was basically said don't don't question.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I'm just remembering I mean I won't necessarily talk about it yet I don't think we have the time but I remember a conversation we were having at the recent press work retreat. I mean I was saying to you how profound it is just even you and Nina's togetherness in terms of the ancestral sort of calling it is profound. Just as a a closing reflection I'm quite you were talking about empathy early on and I'm quite I've been so aware and I think maybe a lot of people have been so aware of this divide between the individual experience versus that of the community and so much of your work and who you embody, you know, and who you and who you how you exist in this world is to me about the invitation to community I I I guess the question forming in my head is about I don't know people who have fear around that blocks around that hesitation around that I mean I know for myself I if there's been times I've stayed away from community it's because I haven't felt safe but not because they were unsafe necessarily but because I had to establish some kind of safety with myself first and then be able to come back to that. Yeah. But I want to come back to that. So I'm just wondering if you could share some of your wisdom around that.
SPEAKER_06:I mean I think you've you brought up the issue of safety or the matter of safety because it's not an issue I think it's a matter and I think it's important I think that you need to feel safe within yourself to be able to feel safe because we live in the world that we live in. Yes if we didn't live in the world that we live in I think it would be very different. So it's about also listening deeply to your intuition. And if it's if you know i it's a long conversation this I think sometimes it's like when is it the intuition and when is it when is it fear that's yeah what's how do you tell the difference between the two you know but I think it's about learning to listen differently. And not to listen from the story in the head and and and not perhaps try to move out of that kind of the the space of of woundology as Carolyn Mace would call it right because I think often we Yeah so it's a lot it's a I'm I don't know if I can answer it but I think it's about I think about really being able to discern and to listen yeah differently and to be able to discern in terms of this question of safety. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah yeah yeah I just just want to add one thing that I heard and I I thought it was quite relevant. They were speaking about this whole thing about safety but more in a community level. Like what are some of the things that's that's causing a lot of fear amongst people and if you look at sort of government systems and and kind of what they're doing for voters like for votes and how they're separating people and categorizing people it's basically they create an idea ideological bunkers. So like if someone looks different from you you know then then I will tell you like that's the problem and I know how to sort it out. Right? But then you get in a bunker everyone that agrees with you in your own little bunker ideological bunker. Yeah now as soon as after a couple of years someone says to you but hang on actually how are we going to solve these problems like I've thought about it. Then suddenly they'll they'll eject you because now you're not agreeing. So it's like I think it was the part you were saying now about having intuition to sometimes question whether it's systems whatever that may be and discernment very very true. Yeah because a lot of the things are driven by fear. And I like I say it's it's a very in-depth conversation but it I could relate it so much because if I look at particular systems in the West currently happening now that's really what's playing out no space for the other.
SPEAKER_06:There we go. No space yes that's yeah but it's a big it's a big question that yeah it's a big question.
SPEAKER_00:It is yeah and it's a very again there's a almost a deep presence we need with ourselves you know to really be present for that conversation but yeah I think but I think you've answered it throughout you know I think the the message for me is very clearly about coming back to the body and coming back to the breath and trusting its wisdom you know and again that natural innate intelligence that lives there. Yeah. And it's really just about us again being willing to listen to it.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So that's the part that's I suppose part of listening differently yes yes you know yeah for someone like myself that's hasn't had as much experience as breath work and I think for me it's about being curious. Yes yes that curiosity where whatever it is that you if you find yourself in your heading journey about it really going down the road of saying like are there different modalities I can explore you know not just traditional methods of of healing and being curious about it because when we are able to make ourselves more curious we actually find different outcomes. Because like you're saying it's that continuous loop it's the same story played over that we've reenacted in our head but once you're willing to go down a different road we might get a different outcome. But without the curiosity and the willingness to do it there can be no different outcome. Yeah yeah so um Sarah for myself thank you so much thank you for the session you did prior to the the conversation today but also just for your insights while it's it's really taken me to a different realm so much of doing the podcast is part of my own healing. So I love the different voices literally and figuratively but um particularly your voice today and and a different outlook you've given me it really resonates a lot with me and I'm sure it will a lot of people so thank you so much for your time and and really taking the time to come out today.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you yeah thank you to Sarah I just I think sometimes just sitting with people you know and having conversations and just being with them the witnessing you know is is exactly as Lincoln said is part of the healing. And I certainly felt that today you know and how this is such a lived experience for you you know which I absolutely am so grateful to experience and to be in the presence of because that in itself is an energetic wisdom you share just by being here. And so I feel like I've received a lot of that today you know thank you thank you for inviting me.
SPEAKER_06:Oh you're so welcome it was also such a gift to be able to to stop and reflect yes you know because we one doesn't always allow to stop and reflect.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you very much a great reflection could we maybe just ask you if there is a a quote or a or just a wisdom of wisdom or anything anything that you feel that you love to leave leave us with and leave our listeners with I think a pool of wisdom is is what I was saying earlier.
SPEAKER_06:Just give yourself the time and the space to to be with your breath stay curious. Yes stay curious to be with your breath because if you're able to be with your breath you're able to be with others because the breath is relational.
SPEAKER_02:Yes I love that I love that all I'll say today is I realizing as I'm aging in life the the the little I do actually know and it's so encouraging for me to to be a witness to this because I realize it's a lifelong journey of healing so thank you so much Sarah from myself Lincoln and from Ishamala we send you greetings in love.
SPEAKER_01:Well that was the human story brought to you by Yoked Media stay tuned for more on the human story