The Human Story

Rebuilding the Human in Our Systems- Kalnisha Singh

• Lincoln & Shaamiela • Season 2 • Episode 4

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In this grounding and empowering episode of The Human Story, brought to you by Yoked Media, Lincoln and Shaamiela sit down with South African Development Economist and social impact strategist Kalnisha Singh to explore what it truly means for women to reclaim themselves in a world that so often demands that they shrink, soften, or separate from parts of who they are.

With honesty, cultural depth, and warmth, Kalnisha unpacks:

  • why so many women feel unseen or unheard
  • how history, culture, and unspoken norms shape confidence and self-worth
  • the difference between patriarchal power and feminine power
  • how to stay authentic in workspaces that prioritise performance
  • the emotional weight women carry across generations
  • what real belonging feels like and how to rediscover it

Kalnisha brings truth, tenderness, and clarity, offering women a pathway back to wholeness beyond pressure, expectation, and inherited limitation.

For any woman navigating identity, healing, or the quiet work of remembering herself, this episode is a reminder you are not alone, and your story carries power.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, welcome to the human story with myself Lincoln.

SPEAKER_04:

Hi, I'm Shamila. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_00:

Shamina, if you look at outside, it's I think some people have blown into Cape Town today. American City. And I can also see that it's, you know, seasoned for the tourists. You can see a lot of tourists around you and against the museum downstairs. Yeah. And that's obviously really great for the economy. Because speaking about the economy, we've got an interesting guest today. We do. But I'll leave that over to Shamila. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's been an exciting time. You know, the wind's done some interesting things to all of us. We were just debating whether or not it affects the internet. So let us know in the comments if you think that's real. We think it's real. Yeah. Yeah, but we're excited to have our very special guest. Indeed. Who she's a friend of mine now. Are we friends?

SPEAKER_01:

I think we are.

SPEAKER_04:

Awesome. So we'd love to welcome Colnesia Singh to the studio, but also to this conversation. Welcome, Colnesia. Thank you for having me, guys. You're so welcome. Maybe let's start with just a short bio so our listeners can get to know you. A short bio. I mean, I mean, like we're gonna shorten it because this lady, she's incredible. Phenomenal. Exactly. So Colnesia Singh is a developmental economist, ecosystem builder, and founder of KD Strategies, an advisory firm working at the intersection of sustainability, social impact, and economic transformation in South Africa. Her work focuses on translating complex realities, regulatory, social, historical, and deeply human into the strategies that enable meaningful and sustainable economic participation at all levels of society. Beyond KD strategies, Kalnesha is the founding energy behind a growing ecosystem of initiatives. Our common future, a thought leadership platform amplifying the Global South perspectives, Sia Vela, a community-based retreat and impact-intensive exploring healing, connection, and conscious leadership. And We're Connected, formally We Connect, a network uplifting and connecting women in the energy sector. Kalnisha has received multiple awards for her work in both community and industry. Today she partners with leaders, communities, and organizations who are committed to building differently with presence, with purpose, and with a vision for futures in which people and systems are able to thrive, not merely survive. Wow, that's a word. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Definitely.

SPEAKER_04:

So with that in heart and mind, let's begin by asking you what's really a standard question here on the human story podcast, which is what does it mean for you to be human in this era of humanity? Jeez.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, it's not small.

SPEAKER_04:

You do big things. Okay. We're just matching your energy.

SPEAKER_01:

I think I think what it means to be human right now is something everybody, if they're not contemplating, should be contemplating.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I think our social structures, our economic structures, have been designed in a way over the last couple of centuries to kind of dehumanize humans and dehumanize or homogenize the human experience, which is such a great travesty. So I don't really have an answer for that question because I think it's just one grand contemplation right now. I think the current human experience is really about acknowledging how different we all are, but also how similar we all are. That we're all part of this grand universe of largely unknown stuff. You know, it's a beautiful story that the astronomers always say about how if it wasn't for the Big Bang, we wouldn't exist, literally, because we're all born of stardust. You know, if stars didn't sacrifice themselves, we wouldn't have iron to fuel our bloodstreams. Um there wouldn't be oxygen, there wouldn't be all of these molecules that we need to survive. So in that grand chaos of the universe, we exist as humans because of some beautiful design. So we're all the same in that way. But we're all so spectacularly unique in our makeup. And that needs to be acknowledged and appreciated. I think in this next phase of our lives and of human existence.

SPEAKER_04:

And I really love the part about it being a continuous contemplation because I do think that's certainly where it takes me thinking about that.

SPEAKER_00:

I just in the one part about saying about how little we actually do know. I love, I saw a quote this week. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it says, when humans think, human things, God laughs. And I love that. I really love that because it's so reflective of how we've become so individualistic and thinking that we're the makers of our universe, but in actual fact, we need others. I mean, we're built for connection. So I love that answer. And the fact that you say you can't really answer it is even more amazing to me on this podcast because it shows that there is a human component, that we're not there's no perfection really in something, that it is a very kind of open kind of system, really. I think, Alisha, the first question I really want to ask you, related a little bit to your work, kind of working as a as a as a development economist in South Africa, um, what issues do you find repeatedly arise inside companies that are still unseen or misunderstood, really, in a South African context?

SPEAKER_01:

There's so many. I mean, I think in in my and this in this sort of time of my life and at this point in my career, and also in this part of South African econom the economy as a whole, we don't realize the sort of sort of systemic barriers that exist, right? We we sort of trained to overlook them and try to band-aid them and you know force things. But unless we sort of acknowledge the embedded stuff, it's very difficult to build something different. And when I talk about the embedded stuff, it's not just our political history or our economic history, it's about everything. So the fact that business places and workplaces and spaces and economic activity was never designed for the inclusion of women. That's not something that we've consciously addressed at all. So we've tried to include women into spaces, but we haven't shifted the design of those spaces, which creates those intrinsic barriers that we we see but we don't acknowledge. You know, great big white elephants. Similarly, in sort of leadership structures and leadership caveats, and even the cycle of or business cycles are not designed for inclusion, and not just the inclusion from a gender perspective, but from a cultural perspective. You know, and a simple example is we're currently part of like the BRICS Nations.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

So we're doing a lot of work with China. In corporate South Africa, most corporate offices have like a big bouquet of flowers in the reception. Certain flowers and certain colours like are so culturally inappropriate for Chinese business people. They won't do business in a space that has red flowers.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Right. Didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's something that we won't even think about.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And it creates a systemic barrier to participation in that equation because you don't acknowledge the difference of the other. It's similar to like lilies. Lilies are a universal flower that symbolizes death. Right. I love lilies. So I always have lilies in my space, but it's very bad for business. Okay. And so there's lots of symbolisms that we don't acknowledge. And those are the kind of barriers that we're still seeing in corporate to acknowledging the human experience. But even more than that, right? I think the big Western narrative of corporate culture is so devastatingly harmful in a multicultural society. Sure. Because you're encouraging people to leave their identities at home. And that means that, you know, we accept diversity as long as it thinks like us. Yeah. Right. And that is fundamentally not diversity, right? Absolutely. Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I just want to use one example that came to mind. If I look at a space that I've worked in prior, I remember when were moms coming back from maternity leave and there was no space allocated for them to do breastfeeding because obviously you go back home and obviously breastfeed the kids. And I remember them someone telling the lady came back and said, go and use the storeroom because we don't actually have a space for you. And again, like you're saying, it's it's those conscious things we're not aware of at times that creates these barriers because it's like dehumanizing at times. So I love some of the work that you do do because I think it's so necessary to have the conversations because without any conversations, there can't be change. I I think of someone that brought something to me this week. Obviously, with the G20 summits happening next weekend, women for change. And the set is what would we think of kind of partnering with them in terms of initially as a maybe a donation, but also in terms of affinity work with them. And for me, it was such a great thing because I had never really read up about the cause. And these are kind of conversations in a workspace where leaders are supposed to be, people are should bring these things to leaders. Because without that coming to you and having to change what you initially thought or how you think of things, it can't bring about change. So the mere fact that I went to research and go look and I thought it's a great cause, but again, it's my ignorance of not really exposing myself to that. And it was a learning thing for me too, to realize that you you can learn as you go along in life. You don't have to become stagnant. So it's just one thing I wanted to mention as well.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, but I I feel like that's so interesting because it it feels like it drives home that point about the more deeply something affects you, right? So whether that's in terms of your gender, your race, how you present in the world. The more I guess knowledgeable you are about it, the more attuned to it you are, right? And then getting that message across to people who don't feel as affected by that is what I've also what I'm hearing you say, Lincoln. So I know, Kalnisha, in our conversations that we've had, you know, which which got me to say you have to come on our cost. What I really loved and what I do love about your energy for me is that you really, really embody and sort of present as a very matriarchal figure, you know. And I mean that not just in a way that is women in leadership, you know, we use that term. That's not what I mean. I mean the true nature of what matriarchy means. And I know so much of our conversations was around that, you know, and you've mentioned it right now, right? The inclusivity that is on paper, but isn't necessarily practiced. Can we talk a little bit about, you know, this uh that's become a little bit debatable of matriarchal versus patriarchal systems? We all know that we exist in a patriarchal system. You know, that's it's gotten a lot of air time and there's a lot said about it. But I think one of the misconceptions is that people believe that matriarchy is the opposite of patriarchy, but it's actually not. So would you share with us some of your wisdoms and experiences around that?

SPEAKER_01:

I think before I answer the question directly, you know how I love telling stories. Yes. Oh, I love that part. Um so the story I have to tell is that I mean, the sort of my perspective's always from an economic perspective. Because that's my kind of education and work. And it's it's it's wild actually that over the last 200 years we've happily adopted these sort of Eurocentric global north western practices of economy and adopted them. Uh not necessarily physically, because in the emerging economies we haven't quite reached that level of development as yet. But sort of aspirationally, that that's what we want to be. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's crazy because in the grand scheme of economic systems, this sort of hypercapitalistic, consumer-driven, individual-focused economic system is only 200 years old. Whereas the sustaining economic systems of the world are those of China and India, over 5,000 years old, right? They've proved their ability to sustain in and for the collective as opposed to for the individual. So that, I mean, that says something about the human condition. Yeah. Yes. But what we also have to acknowledge is, I mean, and this comes back to your point about patriarchy and matriarchy not being different, they're actually like two sides of the same coin. You require you required in an economic system, in a practical, financial, or capital system, to have this balance between transactional and investment behavior. So the income statement and the balance sheet for the economists and financiers of the world. Patriarchal systems very much take care of the transactions, the income statement. But we know that the income statement is not where you create value. You create value in the balance sheet. And the value is what sustains. Right. So you can and we talk about like subsistence businesses, businesses at the sort of bottom tier of an economic market where people are just conducting trade to like fulfill their daily needs. Subsist essentially. And then you have businesses that create value, and businesses that create value take care of their income segments, their daily needs. But they also buy assets, they also generate wealth in that business system, and that becomes a valuable sustaining thing with an own entity or own like an it becomes an independent entity independent of the people working in that business.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And sustaining economic systems understand this balance between the transaction and building the value, balancing the patriarchal and the matriarchal, and then create long-term sustainability. So like from our perspective, and in the sort of global economy right now, there's lots of conversations about sustainability and ESG and all of these fancy terms. But what we're really struggling with is balancing the the masculine and the feminine.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. On that topic. For for women who feel stretched thin and guilty for choosing themselves, what do you say to help them reimagine a life where they don't abandon their needs for the sake of others?

SPEAKER_01:

That's such a good question. I think guilt is a very masculine emotion. Oh please tell us war. Please tell us war. I think you don't feel guilty because you are behaving in a certain manner. You feel guilty because you believe somebody else needs you to behave in a different manner and you're not succumbing to their wish. Okay. Right. Okay. All the genies and all of the history books and all of the stories are all men. They are. They're the only ones that are able to deliver on these wishes. You know, it's it's not our place. Yes. So yeah. But yeah, I think it's a useful thing. I think that it's another story. I'll tell you the story. The story is this. A lot of us, most of us have forgotten who we are. From an identity perspective, we're all very disconnected from the true essence of who we are because for various reasons. In South Africa or in on the African continent the you know systemic destruction of cultural value and significance and the rewriting of history in a very colonist, Eurocentric, Anglo Angro, Anglo and from an Anglo and French perspective, largely on the continent, has removed people or yeah, removed people from from their lineage and from their identity and from who they are. And it's very easy to become what other somebody else says you are when you don't have any link to your own identity. And that's happened for women as well. So it's it's an easy example on the African continent because we can talk to colonization and the slave trade and all of the invasions that happened that remove people from the land and remove people from their identities and from their cultural systems. Yes. Right. But for a whole gender for 50% of the global population, it has been more subtle. Right? The subtle re subtle disconnection from from who we were or who we are intrinsically. Any woman that stepped out of line and, you know, felt her power was called a witch and then burnt at the stake. Or the eternal spinster or whatever, right? So it's very difficult for a woman, even in modern society, to fully own who she is. Yeah. Right. And if I can't be who I am, and then I also can't be who you want me to be, where does that leave me? It leaves me wrapped with guilt and insecurity and I'm not enough and all that nonsense.

SPEAKER_04:

I love that reflection, and I think that's very it's a very helpful perspective for women, I think, and a very different one. So thank you for that. Yeah. Because I do think that we, I mean, I've heard in the past when we birth children, we birth guilt at the same time.

SPEAKER_01:

Such nonsense. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, but then also, like, you know, and this is the one thing that I am constantly arguing with my teenagers now about, is that you get to choose. Every day you wake up, you get to choose who I am, what I what I choose to believe. And I can either choose to believe this picture of perfection that's been sold on sold to me on TV, or I can choose to believe what's in my heart. Right? So who said that we need to bake birthday cakes every birthday for our kids? It was not until Cake Boss was on TV that we all decided collectively, in some sort of collective hypnosis, that we needed to bake these beautiful magical birthday cakes. Like that guy has 30 years of experience and he's done this every day for eight hours a day. Who do I think I am?

SPEAKER_04:

He's also not doing it alone. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01:

It's like a whole team with him, isn't it? And then all the Instagram reels of all of these mothers that are getting it right. And I'm like, you know, you're only showing us the one time it was successful. You're not showing us the three weeks of practice and the thousands of dollars of ingredients that you have wasted, right? Exactly. But then I choose to believe this version. Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm gonna add to the conversation now, Kalisha. But so part of my healing journey, I said what I really kind of struggle with in this day and age is like because there's a supposed awareness of masculinity and what a male should be. I'm talking about kind of being softer and more gentle and being conscious. Because there's so much content out there, there's even more pressure on men to kind of play that role. And I find, I find for myself in this age, people are saying a lot about it, a lot of talk about it, but I don't see it really dropping and landing with a lot of, especially in my own circle of friends. I find that guys want more of it, but as soon as you go down that road, they close a shutdown. So I I find, particularly in my my field of my friends and my surroundings, uh, whenever I've tried to have those conversations, I seem to get blocked. And it's so difficult because I'm I'm really looking, craving for spaces where I can actually have those conversations, but I'm I'm getting blocks from from men with where they're saying, let's let's be, let's talk about these things. And as soon as you venture and you make yourself vulnerable to too go down that road, then you get blocked. So it's it's it's interesting for me just to hear that to you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It is, I mean, it is interesting. I think that there's so much there's definitely a disconnect between our intellect and our the intellectual part of ourselves and the emotional part of ourselves, right? And it's I don't know if it's by design, but I think it's definitely a trauma response.

SPEAKER_04:

It it definitely is. I just want to add to that as you continue that thought, please continue. But it feels a lot of what you've already said, which is this divide between the masculine and feminine. Because head is often masculine and further down below the neck is feminine.

SPEAKER_01:

But there's yeah, there's also all of these other things at play. Then the one thing that the thought that comes to me when when you were, or the thought that came to me while you were sharing was was that of like what is safety? And humans find safety in lots of different ways and in different bubbles and and things, but the most the most obvious search for safety is the search with people that look and think and feel like I do, right? The safest space is with people who are like me. And once you start, you know, gnawing at those boundaries, it sort of starts becoming an unsafe space.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Which is again why the issue we have with diversity and inclusion in corporates is because it's safe when I went to school with everybody around the table. Yes. And when I start inviting other people in, it starts being less safe, you know.

SPEAKER_04:

Then I need to put my guards up and so I mean that's a really lovely reflection. And again, I'm thinking back to so many of the conversations we had. How do you approach that as a transformational specialist? How do you approach really getting to the crux of diversity and having those conversations? And I guess getting people to get real about it as opposed to just use the language.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I know I know the answer that you want me to end up with. I really there's no place. Please go, go force. But there's but there's some there's so many different layers to like creating that safety, especially in a boardroom environment, right? Because in a South Africa, like a purely South African perspective, you know, we have a regulatory ecosystem that is trying to force diversity and inclusion and employment equity and all of this stuff. And in that forcing, businesses have been forced to comply in order to achieve their licensing obligations and whatever else. But when you're operating from a place of compliance or fear, there's no safety there. Yeah. Right. So, I mean, and that's why we've created the storm that we're currently in around diversity and equity and inclusion. But when you get to the heart of it, I mean, I think the bottom line is always trying to remind people of their own humanity. And what happens in these spaces is the person that's in the minority typically comes with their guards up, right? So I deserve to be here. I've earned my way. I'm not better or worse than anybody else in this room, you know. And so they don't necessarily, they're not incentivized to show their own vulnerability, which means that everybody else, and then from everybody else's perspective, it's like, oh, but you're an employment equity hire, diversity candidate, you know, you haven't earned your way, no merit, whatever the other nonsense is in the in their minds. So they also put their walls up and there's no space for vulnerability. So if I come to you as the minority person and say, now, you know, I missed the last taxi. You know, of the three taxis that I've had to take to work, I missed the last one, and that's why I'm late. What I'm doing is I'm affirming the other side of the story that I don't belong here.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So I won't do that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And if on the other side of the equation they witness a little bit of humanity in me. Right. And then, but like in my case, if if I allowed at that point in my career for the other side to witness the humanity in me, maybe I had a vulnerable moment or was a little bit emotional or whatever, then it affirms their belief of me as well that I'm fragile and don't belong here. Right. So it's like, you know, it's this wild game of chess that you're kind of navigating. And what we don't remember also when we're having these conversations about the elusive corporate, is that it's all politics and it's all chess.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So the first thing we do when we're trying to break down these boundaries is name it. Like you put all the cards on the table, let's name what the biases are, what prejudices are, what the things, and then let us dispel those beliefs. Yes. And if the person in the room is only an affirmative action appointment, they've got no other merit than being here, then you know your board has made the wrong decision in hiring them. But if they can prove their mettle and you can engage as humans, then we can get past this very quickly. Wow.

SPEAKER_04:

Is that easy? Nope.

SPEAKER_00:

I can tell you from a corporate perspective, it's definitely not easy.

SPEAKER_04:

What do you think makes it difficult though?

SPEAKER_01:

It's so it's so what makes it difficult is again, it's like bullshit people. Um shame. Lindy's like, oh my god, she's gonna swear.

SPEAKER_04:

Lindy's Kalnicia's friend who's in the room with us, just saying.

SPEAKER_01:

No, so what makes it hard is that in reality, right? When you see a job advert that's posted anywhere, Sunday Times, wherever. Yes. Right, the person that ultimately gets the job only probably meets 30% of the criteria on that job advert. That is just the reality of recruitment. So now you're sitting in a job and you know I'm only like I can only do 30% of what they want me to do.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So I know that I am not adequately qualified or adequately experienced for this job. And then what have we been told? To fake it until we make it. We can't admit that we only kind of know how to do 30% of this thing. Right. So now you're sitting at a boardroom with 12 other people who all kind of have 30% confidence in their abilities to fulfill their functions. Yes. And you're like, who admits what?

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. That hits the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely. And that's that's what I'm sitting with from what you're saying, and what you have been saying for the last few minutes is the vulnerability. That's a word that stuck with me. Because to be human is to be vulnerable. And there's almost a denial of humanity. Not almost, there is a denial of humanity. Completely.

SPEAKER_00:

I've seen it so often in a corporate space where I've myself gone in and feeling quite inadequate at times. All to find out that that's probably the same thought that's running through the the eight other people in the room. Yes. But as you as you deal more in those spaces, you realize that that everyone has the same insecurities. And it's so so refreshing to hear that servant leadership can really make a space more open for people. Because I've seen that. I've definitely seen that. It's like it's like someone coming to a to address the company that gains through a hard time. If he's someone that prior to coming to make a really difficult announcement has walked past some of the passage and said, like, hey Sia, I know your mom was sick. How are you doing? Um and he shows the compassion side. If he were to come two months later and say to these people, like, this is happening, you guys must trust. Me, but there was no prior relationship built to showing empathy. They're not going to obviously trust him then. But if he's shown that he has a real investment in people and he actually cares about the individual in that in that employment group, it's a different scenario. And I've seen that play out with people. I've definitely seen that in practical where people actually show interest in people and how they relate differently to others. Definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's really interesting in the South African dynamic. So servant leadership is this wonderful concept, right? Yes. But again, like human behavior is fascinating.

SPEAKER_03:

Indeed.

SPEAKER_01:

It is. So we want we want to experience that kind of servant servant leadership, the sort of humanness of leaders in like a corporate setting. Yeah. But collectively, as South African people, we want something completely different from our political leaders. Right. So as a collective, what we are hoping to see in our politicians is a symbol that inspires hope and possibility for the future. So I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be like the version of me that I hope I will be one day. Right. And the version of me that I will hope to be one day doesn't even acknowledge that I exist.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I love that. I didn't ever think of it so much.

SPEAKER_01:

You aspire to this like celebrity kind of mold. Yeah. Which is fascinating, which I mean again speaks to like this sort of aspirational dynamic that poverty kind of embeds.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you think that's why a lot of government systems, particularly in the West, kind of do really well at the moment because they kind of highlight like people of a certain sector are the problem. So what I'll do is I'll show you what that is and I'll show you how to solve it. So you kind of find alignment. And then everyone else that thinks the same as you, you, you know, you stick with them and you have these little ideological bunkers and you don't question anything and sitting there. And then eventually after a while, you say to the friend that's in your bunker, you go, like, actually, how are we going to solve uh solve those problems that we have, unemployment? And suddenly you say, But now, but but you're not actually seeing the same view. I'm assuming so now I eject you out of my circle. And I think that's a great way that division is happening currently. So it's interesting that you mentioned that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's the old playbook, The Art of War. Yep. Divide and Conquer. I mean, we're seeing the increase of like right-wing politics now all across the world, even here in South Africa, right? Yeah. And what right wing politics ultimately does is play on our need to have this leadership that is almost celebrity, larger than life, you know, that kind of aspiration. Especially as from an econom if from an economic perspective, we are the like the the wallet and chains are tightening and tightening and tightening. So I think we all need to buckle up a little bit.

SPEAKER_04:

I do think so, but it's interesting because I'm thinking about that from the perspective of regulation and how it speaking to the concept of safety, right, within the nervous system. And so right-wing politics soothes completely. You know, it soothes. And when you have collectives of people that are just dysregulated, you know, how what am I gonna do? I'm gonna reach for the safety, however, that presents, you know. And then that system obviously plays on the fact that they can present themselves in a way that is going to look appealing to me.

SPEAKER_01:

And that, I mean, that goes back to like one of the very first comments you made around, you know, having agency to speak your need and all of this stuff. You get you're only able to acknowledge what you need if you feel you're allowed to.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Which is why, like in a system like apartheid, for example, so many people were comfortable in their subjugation.

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Because rocking the boat and speaking their need had like worse impacts potentially.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So it's it's the antithesis to survival. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And comes back to, I guess, that sort of induced tribal mindset. You know, I mean, we all have a tribal mindset anyway, as human beings, but that induced, you know, I need to survive, and so I need the group. And and so I'm not going to express my authenticity, right? And yeah, and express my need. One of you sorry. No, no, go ahead. You'll have to cut that. Oh, good. One of the projects that I really loved reading about Ciavella.

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

Which means we are emerging. I really sat with that for a second when I looked at that. And it's emergence with intention, is my understanding. So of course I was drawn to it very fully. I guess my question is I mean, please speak about the project, but emergence from what and where to.

SPEAKER_01:

So C Vela is a project that has been bubbling for probably the last 25 years, right? Since I started work in this kind of ecosystem. And the reality, the absolute irritating reality is that all of our kind of economic and industrial models, even education models that we work in in the global south as a collective, everybody south of the of the equator, are models that have been imposed by other people, other nations, whatever. And so the model of economics that we have in the global south doesn't consider things like indigenous knowledge and indigenous systems and and all of these things, right? But that's not the point. The point is the models we are working with and are not designed for our success, which is why we are perpetually failing. Right. So and it is human nature to not blame the system, but to blame ourselves, right? Which is why the systems perpetuate. And we fall deeper and deeper and deeper into this like doldrums of failure, you know, as a collective. And then you see all those things play out from a very human perspective. Like if we all collectively feel like a failure, then those that have a little bit of access to success is gonna, you know, milk it for all that it's worth and run with it. And the rest of us just fall deeper and deeper and deeper into like the darkness. But what it what is sort of emerging is that this unified understanding that we need to rethink these systems. So it's not enough for us from an economics perspective to plan our policies and our, you know, things like our monetary policy that governs the interest rate. It's not enough for us to now just assume that the policy is sound and react based on what the pol or react how the policy tells us to react. We have to rethink it because clearly what we've been doing for the last 25 years isn't really working. Yes. Right. But that's on every at every level, at every scale. And I mean, I was sharing earlier that in South Africa, we're, you know, we all know that we're a developing nation, but there's somewhere between 115 and 120 billion rands spent on development. Not development as in infrastructure development, but development as in social development and education and community work and all of this every year in this country. Wow. Now, if that was a financial investment, 115 billion rands, you're expecting to see a 15 billion rand return every year for 30 years. Right. We're not seeing that. So the challenge we have is not a financial one.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? It's the systems one. Yes. Right. The systems are not designed in our favor. So Siervela is the intention of Siervela is to bring together all of these stakeholders, partners, parties that exist in this sort of development ecosystem that have agency in their work to start rethinking and redesigning the system that we are working in. Right. So we can emerge better outcomes with the investments that are being made. That's ultimately the intention. But the people dynamic in this equation is that we are all, myself included, working in a system that's not designed for our success. And over an extended period of time, you can imagine what that does for your motivation.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Because most of us get into this development work because we want to save the world. Right. We have this burning desire because of some childhood stuff. Yes. That, you know, we can make a difference. Yes. And then your one happens and you're like, okay, no, maybe I don't know enough. And then your ten happens and you're like, okay, but I think I should know what I'm doing now. But it's still not working. Right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And then by your ten is usually the maximum people usually leave. They go work at a bank after that. Right. Because now it's just about the salary I need to feed my kids. And if they stay on in the role, it literally is just that it's just because now it's just about the salary. Now it's just because I need to feed my kids, not because I want to make a change in the world anymore. And slowly what's been happening over the years is that it's only now starting to be seen as a career choice, not as a purpose or calling anymore. And we need to like reignite the flame in the people working in this space.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So that it they remember that it's a calling. It's not just a salary.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's why C of L exists.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_00:

That is really incredible. I mean, I suppose then one could really ask, like what small actions from individuals that you've worked with have you seen that can create meaningful change without even or with the little resources?

SPEAKER_01:

There's so much. And it doesn't really take much. Like in terms of resources, like I said, the money is all there.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

The biggest most meaningful change is remembering what it means to live in community. And I mean everybody has that experience. Yeah. You know, even in corporate. Like remember what it means to live in community. You know, for me it was I wasn't just afraid of my own mother finding out that when I was being naughty. It was like anybody's mother could discipline. Right? Yes. And they didn't even have to be a mother, they just have to be of similar age to the mother, and you know, they could discipline you. Absolutely. Kept us in line. Yes, they did. But I mean, that's a facetious comment, but like also it also meant that no kid in the in the neighborhood was hungry ever. Yes. Right? Because the mothers fed everyone. Yes. Right. With whatever little that they had. It wasn't about the money. And even, and I mean it's like I think about that, and I was like, the food was great. But it also meant that the kids didn't get to eat any protein.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Because you got gravy and rice. And the adults got protein, but it was fine because it was great and everybody was fed and was great, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And we all just need to remember that. Like it's aspirational to live in community. Yes. Because everybody's taken care of. Right. We need to shift the aspiration. Right. Because the aspiration, the aspiration right now is that you turn 18 and you leave home. Yes. And you remove yourself from the community. And I was like, but why?

SPEAKER_04:

Exactly. And again, as you were saying, that's really no worries. It's really not most, it's not part of most indigenous people's way of living. Again, that's, I think, from the points you're making throughout this conversation, is that's adopted, you know. Completely adopted. And it's not, it doesn't fit, it really doesn't fit a South African context and experience, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

My my recommendation always to everybody is just to think about like who does who does this choice serve? Right. It doesn't serve me as an individual to leave home when I'm 18 and I have no means of supporting myself. So who does it serve? And the answer is like in a Western or Western construct, a Eurocentric construct, it serves the economy. It doesn't serve any other person. Because when you're 18 and you leave home, you need student loans to pay for university. The only person that student loan is servicing is the financial services institution that is earning interest on your loan, right, and those shareholders. When you are forced to rent a cheap apartment because you can't afford to be a homeowner, the only person that is serving is the landlord. Right. So just to think about in the system, in this, in the sort of utopian ecosystem that has been created for us, who does it serve? It's really just great marketing. It really just has been great marketing. I mean, Hollywood movies sell to kids the excitement about living on college campus and all of that stuff. We all know that we all of us that have been through the college system know that it's not like that. Yeah. But our kids still aspire to that because they watch movies.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. This is the conversation currently in my home. I have a 16-year-old and a 13-year-old. Cannot wait to go and have that experience, which is really not real. It's really not real. Yeah. I'm thinking about this idea that people can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_04:

I've also come to, I think, learn that people can only meet their work as deeply as they've met themselves. How have you done that? And how has that, you know, shaped your work? But also how has that work and having to meet yourself there shaped you? And where's that taken you within yourself?

SPEAKER_01:

So I mean obviously when you when you're sort of working and dealing with clients and stuff, you don't necessarily know what you're getting, gonna get at the other set at the end of a contract. Yes. And the one tool that I've used. So this is a story before I tell you about the tool. I'll tell you the story.

SPEAKER_00:

We love stories.

SPEAKER_01:

We do. The story is that over the last 20 years, I've been designing these community development, local economic development initiatives around the country for various clients of various scales, right? And like I said earlier, these c these projects are sort of destined for failure. Yes. The best statistic in South Africa right now is that about 20% of these impact development or development projects succeed. Wow. And that's just the financial system. Sure. Right. It's Pareto. 20% success makes up for the 80% failure theoretically on paper in an economic model. But it's not true because these are not it's not just money, it's people. Yes. You know, so for every 100 kids that get bursaries, only 20 of them actually make it into the economy. Wow. That's shocking, actually.

SPEAKER_00:

But that's a whole different way of looking at it. I never thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So that's just the reality. And if you think about all of the companies that are just doling out these bursaries now. Yeah. Right. All over. And what what we re and we all know theoretically again that all that's resulted in is a growing number of unemployed graduates. Yes. Right. Because that's another conversation we have, but we have these conversations in kind of parallel to each other, not together. So for a long time, I was I internalized that failure, right? Obviously, I did what everybody does. It wasn't like I was doing everything according to the book, but it wasn't working, so obviously it's me.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It was almost like I went through, you know, those 12 steps of grief. You know, you go from like denial to like anger. Anger, bargaining. And all of those things. Yes. So I I don't know which step I'm at now, but like now, it's definitely not me.

SPEAKER_04:

Good. That's a that's a good, that's a good place to be.

SPEAKER_01:

And this definitely I realized it was definitely not me, probably about 11 years ago. And I was like, okay, so if it's not me, what can what needs to change?

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And I had a conversation with a birthday recipient. It was really fascinating because she was applying for a second year birth tree. We had given her a birth three for the first year, and she didn't make the results required to get into second year. But she still applied, and I called her in and I was like, what's going on? And she says, You don't understand. For you success was normal and failure was abnormal. For me, failure is normal and success is abnormal. And if you think about the average experience of the average South African under 25-year-old right now, that's the truth. Failure is normal, success is abnormal. Unemployment is normal, employment is abnormal. Yeah. Alcoholism is normal, and being sober is abnormal. Right. And everybody, it's a human condition, we all want to fit in.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So that was the sort of impediment to development that I kind of realized at that point. You can give the kids bursaries, but you can't change the human condition. You know, just by paying school fees. Yes. So how what can we do to sort of and you also can't necessarily shift what's normal without fundamentally changing the system. Exactly. So what can we do to help them realize that being abnormal is okay? And then I tried everything. Tried everything. I tried everything. We were doing community psychology and trauma counseling. And we were even doing like yoga and TRE at one point. And like and you can imagine like in rural classrooms, people like tapping themselves, like we did everything. And it was difficult to convince clients to release budgets to try these woo things, right? Sure. To help kids realize that being abnormal is okay. Yes. And then I found breath work. Right. Which is where the story is supposed to go. And I found breath work, not for my work, but for my own children. And I saw what an amazing shift resulted from them doing breathwork consistently. And I was like, what if we tried this free thing? Free thing. You don't have to convince anybody or anything to try in these communities. And what will it do? And then we started instilling or starting every session we had with kids or community members of any kind of variation with some breath awareness and then some breath work and sort of just reminded everybody who they are and who they're connected to. And what and yeah. And that's what we are playing with right now.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, on on that, like how do we in our own capacity become servant leaders beyond the boardroom and our corporate spaces and communities and relational spaces? How do we how do we servant the communities?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. I don't know how everybody's gonna do it, but I'll what's been a game changer for me is just giving myself permission to be abnormal. Right. Telling the whole story with the good, bad, ugly, dirty, clean, acknowledge the devil on the shoulder and the angel, all of it. And just allowing myself to be a whole person rather just rather than just the the glossy PR person has been a game changer for me because it allows me to meet people where they are.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm with you on that. Completely on the same journey. Oh, really? Completely on the same journey.

SPEAKER_04:

I've been watching it. Playoffs. Up close and personal. No, it's a joy to see it. Which is interesting because you know, obviously now you've spoken about the breath. So it's even more intriguing. Um, so yeah, that's that's how cognition and our relationship began because we're both practitioners and from the same school, Breathwork Africa. Yeah, what are you what are your I think your thoughts on the breath and systems? Breath and systems. How does that make you breathe when I ask you that question? Okay, I can totally cut that out.

SPEAKER_01:

So what's been really interesting for me is that I mean, I think my journey with breath work, which has been like the last five years, has has mimicked my sort of realizations and reflections about systems. Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So acknowledging acknowledging, I mean, breathing is something so intrinsic to humans, right? Yes. It's our first act on this earth outside of our mothers is to breathe. And everybody celebrates.

SPEAKER_04:

And the wail that comes with it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, everyone celebrates, but it's it's our first sort of magnanimous act that creates all of the celebration, but it's also extremely painful for that little baby, right? Which is why it's it's like this, and it's everything that like life has to offer. It's like this complete duality, you know, complete blessing, complete curse as well.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think allowing myself to be aware of my own breath and my own relationship with my breathing and my body has also I don't know. I think it just naturally and organically allows everyone around me to acknowledge their own relationship with themselves.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

It's also, and I mean, my story with Breath Work started because of my children, because I wanted to give them tools to self-regulate without pharmaceutical intervention. Right. And that was my my 100% mission to myself. Like they need to be able to self-regulate regulate without relying on external things. So we did lots of things at the same time as we did breath work. We did yoga, we did meditation, we did lots of other things. Breath work is the one that stuck with them because it's so natural. And what uh being aware of your breath does for you is it gives you agency, it makes you realize that I am in control, actually. I'm in control of everything that I can be in control of.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Everything else is like not my business.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And that is wonderfully empowering.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And so when you give somebody or you allow somebody around or like in your space to have that relationship or form that relationship with themselves, that's the ultimate sense of empowerment. It's like I am you you allowing person a person to realize that they're in control. And that's that's been the game changer for me in my work.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. Thank you for that reminder. Even as you were saying that, it just kind of it reminded me of of what drew me to it as well. But the power of that and the power of there's something about what you just described that you you almost answer some of what you what we are speaking about in terms of embracing that agency for the individual for to help them, I don't know, get in touch with the autonomy to connect, you know, with themselves so they can meet whatever comes their way. And I think that's part of what I often want to scream to people. It's it's not about it's not about the success or the failure, it's about meeting it. You know, being a willing participant in just meeting whatever comes your way or whatever you encounter in life, and that the breath has been an incredible anchor. And I think that's just what you've reflected, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I I mean, I like I like the version of the story I tell myself around control because obviously um I like being in control, but also because all other kind of schools of thought is like, oh, you must surrender, and you're never in control. And I was like, no, that's not true. We we choose how we react in any situation. We choose what we do with the 18 hours of the day that we're awake, you know? And those choices could reflect the current situation we're living in. Yes, but it's still a choice every moment of every day. Right? If we can control her like our breath, literally. Yes. We can control everything. We can control our thoughts, we can control our emotions, we can control our actions and our reactions. And that's all we have to do, actually.

SPEAKER_04:

Exactly. I think that's such an important message. But one that's very difficult for people to embrace. I think for human beings to admit, first of all, about what you're saying about control and our relationship with control, you know, because of our incredible anxiety, you know, that a lot of us live with. And I think the world increasingly, I don't know, makes us believe is the truth, but it's really not the truth of who we are. You know, that's one component, that's one experience we're having. Yeah. So thank you for that. That's such an yeah, very remarkable reminder.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I guess I ask you, Kalesha, like what's this one small thing you do to stay grounded when the world really expects so much of you and you feel overwhelmed to do on a day, um, even if it's a little quirky with someone.

SPEAKER_01:

Everything I do is quirky. I dance it out. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So yeah, I love that. Oh, I love that. In yeah, in fact, oh I'll say it here. Because we had a plan to to you know, in in line with that. But that's uh the movement and getting back into the body, right? Coming which you see, this is why I say you embody the matriarch. Because the matriarch understands that the head can only take us so far. Right. And that it goes beyond that. And I think it's about the the merging of the two, for sure, right? And they they they both have their place, but understanding that when you're getting back into the body, you touch the truth, I think.

SPEAKER_01:

There are there are a few standard sayings in my household. The one is you can't be sad if you're wiggling your bum. It is physically impossible. It's true. It is true. Shake your hips and wiggle your bum, and sadness just dissipate dissipates. I love that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we love it. Do you want to start thinking about wrapping up? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

No, we don't want to take up more of your time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Perhaps as we kind to bring the conversation to a close. What is a quote or anything that you'd want to leave us with about your human story? Right? I think you've come and shared really beautifully today a little bit about that. Yeah. What would you like to leave us with?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. I think I think the ultimate kind of liberation is acknowledging your own story. And all of it. All of the story. All the characters and all the versions of you that have lived through the story. And I think that very few people actually allow themselves the opportunity to reflect. I think for some reason we're wired to believe that it's very selfish and self-serving. And that's not the truth. Right? We're not like stars didn't die in the universe to create us in order for us to be hamsters on we are like there is this bigger and the bigger essence of who we are is to exist and experience humanity and all of humanness in its fullest form. And I think we must just allow ourselves to do that.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. That's wow.

SPEAKER_00:

I think for myself just today to if I look at some of the research I did and and I listened to you actually sitting in front of your energy today, I'm really struck by your humility that you're so humble with all the achievements if I if I look at what's transpired in your career and what you've achieved thus far. And if I look back at some of the research and I looked at some of your journey of like a schoolie model C school very early 90s and I can understand that struggle that you may have had and and where you are today where you are and some of the roles you've played in different organizations and stuff. But I think the the biggest part about that is is your humidity. And that's so encouraging to see because if I look at people with some people that may have achieved what you have, it's it's very easy not to sit here grounded and speak about what you've spoken about today. So the fact that you can speak so openly and so honest today I think is the biggest achievement of all for me. And that's so wonderful to see.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you. Yeah it's it's I mean I obviously echo what Lincoln has said. But I I'm I'm just glad that I got to share you with with the world because I mean we spent like a year just seeing each other virtually when we were in the 2022 cohort of the Breathwork Africa. But it's interesting like and as we know you know as as a rule now that energy is simultaneous and immediate. And so yeah I'd already liked you you know and loved what you were sharing. And I think we might have done one sort of breakout room together while we were online. Sorry I'm waffling but I but I guess I'm just yeah I'm just I'm so glad that I I got to share this and you know and have this conversation with you on this podcast. And and I think from what Lincoln was saying I just I adore how deeply human you are you know I adore how deeply human you are and how I can see that that leads that you lead with that and that's what we are interested in. I know that that's what I'm interested in. So if I you know lean towards someone and I'm sitting with them for dinner, breakfast and lunch it's because I sense that about them you know and it's an energy you know that you carry and yeah I'm so grateful to have encountered it. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Isn't it wild though that being like human is such a compliment?

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow what a perspective that's a pull of wisdom drops right there.

SPEAKER_04:

Right until the end.

SPEAKER_00:

She's giving us those you know those pulls yeah but I I just want to say I I read an article um this week on uh New York Times and it speaks a lot about how this this cultural poverty for men and they haven't diversified really in the experiences. You know, you find young boys playing TV games online and they don't have a lot of cultural awareness. So there's not real depth anymore. And clearly clearly I can see today that you've had a lot of cultural experiences and it comes through in the way that you speak about humanity and that is rare today. So I'm so grateful that I could experience that it's it across to you and thank you for reminding us how important community is and sharing that experience with others. So myself Lincoln until next time.

SPEAKER_04:

And we Shamila we send you greetings and love. Stay human.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah