The Human Story
The Human Story podcast is brought to you by Yoked media hosted by Lincoln & Shaamiela. We love being human and we find the messiness of the Human Story fascinating. Come and join us for an unfiltered exploration of raw and deeply personal conversations. Through authentic storytelling, we dive into the complexities of life, our struggles, victories, and the profound moments that shape us. The series is about connection, resilience, and transformation, reminding us that while life may not be perfect, it can be beautiful. The Human Story is our invitation to listen deeply, reflect honestly, and recognise yourself in the shared experiences of others. These stories remind us that growth is possible, connection is powerful, and every journey no matter how imperfect is worth telling.
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The Human Story
Self-Abandonment- Why We Leave Ourselves to Be Loved
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Why do so many of us silence our needs, shrink ourselves, or lose our identity in order to keep love, peace, or belonging?
In this deeply honest episode of The Human Story hosted by Yoked media, Lincoln and Shaamiela explore the hidden pattern of self-abandonment the quiet ways we disconnect from ourselves to feel accepted, safe, or chosen.
Together, they unpack how childhood experiences, attachment wounds, people pleasing, and fear of rejection can shape the way we show up in relationships, work, family life.
This conversation explores:
- How self-abandonment begins in childhood
- Why people pleasing often leads to resentment
- The link between trauma, attachment, and identity
- How relationships can trigger old wounds
- Rebuilding self-trust and learning to choose yourself
- Healing through truth, faith, and emotional honesty
If you’ve ever felt unseen, overextended, disconnected, or stuck in patterns that leave you empty this episode is for you.
Sometimes healing begins the moment we stop leaving ourselves behind.💛
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speaker-0 (00:00.526)
You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all encompassing human experience.
speaker-1 (00:06.702)
This is brought to you by Yoakt Media.
speaker-1 (00:24.16)
Welcome back to another edition of the human story. You can actually see it's been a short while. Shamin and I need to find our sink in again, but it's just, it's, it's been so wonderful. Kind of leading up to Shamin and I kind of chatting about this podcast this week. We've had a bit of a hiatus of recent. But you know, when we arrived here this morning,
speaker-0 (00:27.662)
Thank you,
speaker-1 (00:49.934)
It was so interesting because I was busy unpacking this morning and setting up the equipment. And when Shamla walked in, I didn't really want to share it with her, but she kind of opened up those pathways for me. And she said to me, sure, Link, know, this topic is quite deep and I'm also quite emotional. And the funny thing is I wanted to keep it from her and say to I was quite emotional this morning and actually doing the research as well for certain parts of this topic.
It is quite a heavy topic and I don't think it's something we really want to speak about because it probably takes us on paths we're not always willing to kind of deal with at the time. It was just so wonderful because I to Shyamilla there's a song that really embodies this and it's yeah so we listened to that song this morning and it took us I mean for myself it may be quite tearful and emotional. for me. And I think it granted us for the episode per se but yeah.
Having said that.
speaker-0 (01:50.232)
So yeah, so I think that's really good way to start because I think that again, you know, we often talk about these topics from a theoretical point of view. We try to do it differently at the human story, which is, you know, to send ourselves in our hearts and root ourselves in that. Because we humans experiencing all of these things and, you know, these topics that we discuss. And so it was a beautiful way to just bring us into our heart space and to just, I think for both of us to ground ourselves in
You know, what matters about talking about this, because I think when I told you about it a while ago, I messaged you, think must've been after Ramadan and said, I think we actually need to do this. For a while, we didn't want to touch the topic because it was one of those things where like, we got it. We got to do it right. You know, we've, really got to do it justice. And yeah, the message was clear, which was like, of course, you know it. You've done it.
speaker-1 (02:35.203)
Yeah?
speaker-0 (02:48.974)
for so long. And it's something that we both absolutely share. And has been at the core of a lot of our individual healing. I guess also as friends. I think we look to each other for support in that.
speaker-1 (03:05.486)
Yeah, it's so interesting you say that because I think kind of putting this episode off to where we are today doing it, there might be some resistance from ourselves actually having to face the topic on some level. I think, you know, if I just kind of look about what you spoke about this morning, and like you said, really stirred a lot of emotions kind of doing the research. And I said to Shamila, it's really amazing if I look at the different perspectives. I mean, the core
theme of what it is remains the same, but to get the different perspectives. Show me on that. If I think about just kind of as an opening, you know, I'm, almost a half a century. I don't feel it. But the mirror doesn't reflect the same anymore. But I think, you know, lately I've been asking myself the question, you know, I think of a lot of us quietly ask is where did time go to? But I think, you know, when I look back,
I don't just see what happened to me. I see all the moments where I slowly learn to abandon myself. So I think that's kind of a precursor in today.
speaker-0 (04:15.126)
I guess I'm pretty sure you can tell by the silence, the way this takes us. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's a profound one. And something I see so often, probably the thing I see most often. Yeah. But most certainly can deeply relate to on a personal level as well. And has definitely not been one of the easiest things to, face, you know, about myself.
speaker-1 (04:19.959)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (04:45.262)
I know it's similar for you and it's similar for a lot of people I speak to and, know, clients I've done work with around self abandonment. it's kind of become a little bit more popular around the, the rooms of social media, put it that way. so there's a lot of information out there obviously on this, and what it looks like. But I think maybe to start by saying that we often think self abandonment is big stuff.
speaker-1 (05:02.178)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (05:15.235)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (05:15.724)
You know, and that it happens in big ways. But in truth, they acquire choices repeated over time. And this just becomes a pattern of living. Right? For all of us. So let's begin. Some people are resistant to go back to, which is in your childhood. Right? Because if we really want to understand the roots of self abandonment, we have to go back there. And so a quote I really love is that abandonment begins
before anybody actually leaves you. And it's similar for self abandonment. There's something that you live with already. There's something that as a child you were tuned to in your environment that teaches you to self abandon. And essentially children are dependent on their caregivers, as we know, right? They can't extricate themselves from that dependence. It's completely impossible because the setup is a hierarchy.
within a home. so whether that is that you were raised by your parents, your grandparents, or any form of caregiver, you are dependent on them for survival. Yeah. Right. And for love and for all of that. And so basically that's it. You need safety, you need love and mostly you need belonging. Yeah. And essentially when this goes unmet, it goes unmet through different various ways, through neglect, through criticism, through
Unmet needs, right? And so what we learn is that there's parts of us that really become unsafe to exist the way that we, need to exist and want to exist. And so instead of abandoning our caregivers, we abandon ourselves. And that's where the first fracture occurs, right? That's where you learn to silence, to shrink, to mask and to
to silence and shrink the true self to preserve the connection. And so you can see how fundamental that is to any human being's growth, self-development, and then their psyche. Just how do we organize ourselves around our survival and then our true selves, right? And so, yeah, over time,
speaker-1 (07:29.048)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (07:43.436)
This becomes a survival system. Right. And in the end, what we say is if I leave me, maybe they won't leave me. If I leave me first, maybe they won't leave me. Yeah. And so we, we, these, we, these adults, right. Walking around with like a childhood fear. And I often think about it like this. And I see this often. I feel it myself.
In my own nervous system as well, which is that we're walking around with this fear and there's so many of us as adults making decisions, deciding which relationships environments we reside in. And it's all about us trying to find safety. That's what we're doing. We have these nervous systems that could at times be dysregulated, but there's something so deeply ingrained, right? Depending on.
how it went for you as a child, that that's all you're seeking. So that's quite a thing to ponder is like the relationships, the environments, the jobs, the people in your life, all of those things, like how did that come about? From what place did you make that decision? And you're going to say, no, can't be that, can't be that everything is rooted in self abandonment. But remember that this is so automated that it's unconscious.
speaker-1 (08:58.434)
Yep.
speaker-1 (09:12.065)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (09:13.442)
You know, and again, our unconscious and our subconscious is responsible for 90 % of our behavior. Yeah. Although we'd like to believe that it's not, you know, it's, it's quite a thing. Again, it's it's a very stark kind of like bring yourself.
speaker-1 (09:20.494)
Probably more than that.
speaker-1 (09:29.612)
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. You took me to so many places. So that's and I'm so grateful for that. Yeah. It's a, it's a lovely intro in terms of this topic today. But I think about a very well-known psychologist in early 20th century is Alfred Adler. Yes. And he says the deepest part of the psyche is we, we, we looking for, we have an inferiority complex and we seek for behaviors to be seen and
like you're speaking about now, to kind of being validated. Yes. So we go through life with that deep inferiority complex and seeking acceptance from others. So if we start in that premise, isn't that kind of true like you're saying you abandon yourself first before you actually abandon anyone else? Yes. Because you literally trying to, and I mean, would know Shama, that you do a lot of work in this probably too. But also, this is also probably
deeper, brutally in attachment theory. Yeah. With your parents that first that first caregiver and how that was kind of modeled in the household and what you had to do to remain attached to that parent, which is the core focus really. So I just love where that took me when you kind of said that. I mean, I'm not going to sort of I mean, I think it's also a part where we share parts of our human story. But I mean, I grew up in a household. There was a lot of tension, too.
And similarly, like most people, we never understood because our nervous system is still developing. So what you do as a child, like you say, you internalize and you do what it feels to do safe, to be safe with that caregiver. So for many years, if I look at my kind of childhood, I think about how many times I've just kept quiet, not to be noticed, not to be seen.
And that could probably be for many people, I'm making a generalization here. But I think for many people, if you look back how households were and people's generational traumas, that's probably the reality for many people where, like you say, they've had to shrink, they've had to adjust their behaviors just to make the parent happy. And that's probably a core focus of where it really started.
speaker-0 (11:45.23)
Yeah. Um, I like that you say you like where it takes you. I'm pretty sure it didn't feel that way always. Cause it's, you know what I mean? And again, I think that it's because we're down the line and this is, this is something to acknowledge is that I exactly like you saying, I think I might've shared in which podcast was it? Reflections. Cause it was the last one we did for 2025, which now feels 10 years ago. So.
I I spoke about how there was the seven year cycle that I just completed and it was completely and directly related to self abandonment. And so I had a moment seven years ago, like a true, I think I've said this before, anyway, just indulge me. I'll tell the story again. I had this like true Hollywood moment where I sank to the ground after I something that was deeply, you know, activating for me. And I just saw.
on the ground, literally. And one of the first people I sent it to was my friend Abby. And I said, my goodness, I cannot believe that I've been doing this my whole life. It's so overwhelming for me to acknowledge. And her response immediately was, I know, I get it. We'll do it together. Whatever we need to do, whatever work we need to do, we'll do it together.
speaker-1 (12:44.952)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (13:14.508)
And I think when I think about the things that have healed me and the experiences that have healed me in truth around self abandonment, it's been responses like that. And in relationships where there's been deep safety. so that was literally, you know, something we've been speaking about for years. You know, we go on these long hikes and there's so much to talk about and so much to cover. so, yeah. And so we've done that. And
And it's again, and when I say down the line, you and I are really, we've sort of turned a corner around self abandonment. And so now it's almost easier because we found that safety within ourselves and in relationships that we can say, okay, whoa, this is like a really great reflection. But it was hard. It was hard for a very long time, acknowledging the big ways in which I self abandoned. And it was often around relationships.
this need to belong, know, the seeking of love and attention and all of that stuff. And then, you know, working at it means that we often look at the big stuff first. And when that was out of the way, I was like, all right, you know, I'm like sort of like gaining ground here. Things are going well. And then I think the end of 2024 and the middle of 2024 really brought me into the subtlety.
speaker-1 (14:29.26)
Yes.
speaker-0 (14:42.87)
of self abandonment for myself, but also how I subtly do that in communication, in relationships, in interactions with people. Absolutely. And it's again, it's very subtle, but I almost feel like because I'd done so much work on the big stuff, it started really feeling like self betrayal when I was subtly abandoning myself. Like I didn't actually want to laugh when you made that joke.
speaker-1 (14:53.165)
unconscious
speaker-0 (15:12.344)
But I did, because I was trying to keep the peace. I didn't speak up. I was silent, but I really wanted to say something. I could feel this burning sensation in my throat. I wanted to not attend because it was going to be overwhelming for me and I really need decompression time. But I went anyway. And so that's what self abandonment looks like. Right? When we look at the question of
speaker-1 (15:13.006)
you
speaker-1 (15:25.302)
Yep.
speaker-0 (15:40.142)
What does it look like to self abandon? It's the no, when you deeply want to say yes. Sorry. It's the yes, when you deeply want and it's the no, when you deeply want to yes in truth, both of them, because it's not just the negative stuff. It's the, it's also the positive stuff that we don't reach for, that we don't, you know, we don't dream big. don't,
speaker-1 (16:02.326)
the non-alignment with your soul needs.
speaker-0 (16:04.238)
Absolutely. Beautiful word. So that was my experience of it. And so the end of the cycle was the end of 2025, which I didn't know I was getting to, but I knew that in that year I dealt with like really subtle, big stuff and big relationships, relationships that were, you know, central to my life. And then going, okay, but even in this situation,
speaker-1 (16:20.023)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (16:32.64)
in this relationship, I have to choose me. You know, I have to choose me. I have to learn to listen to my voice about what's really going on here. Like where's the truth and what is the truth I'm not acknowledging in this dynamic. And then can something new be, you know, or rebuilt because this is in truth.
speaker-1 (16:54.2)
sites.
speaker-0 (16:58.934)
It also brought me deeply, deeply, deeply and the most deeply into the relationship with myself. You know, self abandonment is nothing that could have brought me so deeply home to myself than self abandonment. Yeah. So.
speaker-1 (17:04.583)
percent.
speaker-1 (17:16.142)
I want to say I think a large part and thank you for sharing that's really beautiful. And I know how deeply the topic has meant to both of us and the work you've done. So I want to acknowledge that. Thank you for sharing that. I want to say that I completely understand those those little moments, those cumulative moments that make you abandon yourself. You know, Shambla, have been times in my life where
I'm so concerned about how the others receive and how I should behave in certain circumstances that I take on their feelings. you know, for instance, in a work context, was so trying to make someone else fitting because of whatever their journey was, that there were moments that they would make a gesture when I'd say something and I would take on that emotion and they would direct the conversation when everything about me knew I had to go forward in a certain way.
But yet I kept on taking those emotions. And I realized that no matter what I did to please that person, I could be on the ground taking my last breath out of me and still they wouldn't be happy. And there was a big moment when I realized, it was a big realization for me to realize that no matter how I'm going to be a chameleon and try and suit others needs and what I assume they would want, it's never going to be enough for someone else.
Because if they don't even know what they want, how do they truly know at the time what they want from me? Yes. So the only way I can truly live is authentically in what I've become. Yes. And aligning myself to my values and being true to that. Right. And those are typical scenarios like this, Shamila, in a work context. When there have been situations where someone has asked me something that prompted me to make a decision on the spot, I actively choose like at least a couple of seconds before I respond.
And I'll say, you know, thank you for that. I'll have to get back to you on that. The previous version of me, yes, sure, no problem. I can do that. No problem. You didn't even think about it. go, damn, why didn't I say something? I didn't want to acknowledge or say yes at the time. So like you said, it's those small moments in relationships, in a work context and a family dynamic. Yes. Big one. Big one. Big one. Very big one. And I give you a small example. So, you know, my wife and I, when we got married,
speaker-0 (19:31.498)
S.
speaker-1 (19:40.974)
And this is purely because of how we grew up in different households. I had a definition of what a male masculine figure had to do in a household. And, you know, she obviously, whatever her circumstances, she brought that into that dynamic and we had to find our own dynamic again as a family. But there were certain things that I realized that a man had to do. But one of those things were like, because you're both working full time jobs, she would be expected to make dinner. That was kind of like, I'll do the other things. Right.
We actually sat down and said, Lincoln, you know what? I can't do this every night. We both have the same responsibilities. I would appreciate because I can't do this. I would appreciate if you do dinner twice a week and then still do that. I don't have no problem with that. But those are the subtle ways you start expressing yourself, what you need to others and relationships. And I love that because we have followed a similar suit. And just in our relationship, I think I spoke to you in the week.
We celebrated our eighth anniversary. thank you so much. And I think, you know, in the past I would have gone, work is important and yes, don't get me wrong, it's my livelihood and everyone's livelihood. But I also realized the cool people that walk this life alongside with me to be able to do those things. Yeah. And the value. it's really about saying like, we spend the day together and really saying like, are we still in the same track of what we want in life?
Are you happy with the setup that we currently have? Is there anything we need to speak about? So that to me is the ways that you can be honest and express yourself to others in what you need. Because there can always be that thing of resentment. Again, we spoke about in other episodes where you really want to say something in a relationship and it could be with your partner. But you feel like there's an attachment like I'm going to do what I feel that wants to please them. So it's those little subtleties.
that become cumulative, like I say, and can become a massive thing afterwards.
speaker-0 (21:36.974)
Absolutely. 100 % and makes me think about in relationships, particularly it being this, this again, the subtle abandonment of the self in order to keep the relationship contained to avoid conflict. And these things continue to ripple out and it definitely affects our relationships. It's interesting because I think
The logical idea is that if I continue to self abandon, I'll never be alone. And this person won't leave me, right? So that makes sense on some level. It's also such an ingrained pattern, you know, I like to think about it as, a phrase I often use with my clients is a nervous system imprint. Because I don't think this is just a cognitive issue.
speaker-1 (22:31.022)
you
speaker-0 (22:34.944)
It really isn't. This is something that's deeply embedded in your nervous system. And a nervous system imprint basically means it's a pathway. It's a well established pathway of safety. Absolutely. If I do it this way, I will be safe. Right? And in a relationship, if she's okay or he's okay, I'm okay, which is often the anxious attachment. Right?
speaker-1 (22:47.775)
Hmm. Your blueprints.
speaker-0 (23:03.648)
And then, so, yeah, and so, there's this imprint and it's such an automated response that it really takes so much work to become conscious of what it is you just did in that moment. Right? So there's a lot of pausing necessity when, you know, you really want to become aware of that, but in relationships, it's easy to be, you know, if you are someone who resonates with being the people pleaser or the one who just goes along to get along.
speaker-1 (23:12.386)
Yes.
speaker-0 (23:32.492)
That's what happens is that there isn't for me to do honesty in the relationship. Right? So you think, well, if I continue to do this way, essentially, if I continue to be dishonest with them, and dishonest with myself, I will be safe. But the truth is, that when you don't show up authentically, right? And there isn't any space when there's absence of authenticity.
speaker-1 (23:37.726)
I completely agree.
speaker-0 (24:02.336)
It first of all contributes to your feelings of invisibility. Trust. 100%. And so it actually also creates emotional distance, which is again, I want you to think about the logical side of you that goes, nobody, if I do this, I'll be safe. And you think there is closeness, but without truth and honesty, they can't actually be emotional closeness. And they also cannot be emotional intimacy. And if you know,
speaker-1 (24:06.721)
any red soft
speaker-1 (24:29.432)
Yes.
speaker-0 (24:32.428)
stuff about relation, relationality, and relationship psychology. Emotional intimacy is the bedrock of any healthy relationship. Is the ability to express authentically. No, in all relationships, right? And if it's present, what it does is it actually supports a shared reality. So in truth, if you don't show up authentically and you continue to self abandon.
speaker-1 (24:44.716)
It's not just romantic.
speaker-0 (25:02.594)
You're almost living into separate realities, right? Because there's a part of you that refuses to bring the truth of your experience to this person. Maybe you both actually do it. I think most, a lot of us end up and we both do it because, you know, we go, I don't know how to belong to someone and be authentic. I don't know how to hold space for myself and for them. I don't know how we can actually get through conflict.
speaker-1 (25:05.24)
completely.
speaker-1 (25:25.855)
you.
speaker-0 (25:29.398)
if we both are absolutely truthful about what's going on for us. And so these, yeah, this is the impact that it has in relationships. And you can see how deeply rooted all our relationships is in the relationship with the self.
speaker-1 (25:39.043)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (25:49.134)
That makes sense. It makes complete sense to me. And I love that. Just that understanding. And I think you spoke about the nervous system. And I think we spoke about a little bit before we went on the podcast about how nature works. Yeah. You know, we talk about give and receive. Obviously, you're giving and giving and giving all the time, it's going to be you're going to run out of energy. I mean, that's just a natural flow of of
Nature, that works. So nature obviously, you know, let's just say the sun would kind of help the seed growth and this is that, you know, the sun gives that kind of growth to the seeds and whatever the case might be. And it's just a natural process, flow process. But obviously, and I mean, that exists for human beings too, because we're all connected. Yeah. So when you find yourself just giving all the time, I mean, you can imagine where that's going to lead you to. And Shamila, you've been there.
I've seen in some levels, all of us, I think. And that's really burnout. And that's what people pleasing does. You know, if you're not living authentically and you wrote that self trust. So now suddenly you have more of an inability to express the needs because now you can trust yourself. And the more that you do that, that you don't align with your values, the more that you wrote the self trust in you. And it's hard to come back to who you actually are.
speaker-0 (27:12.278)
Yeah, in fact, you kind of lose sight of it completely because it affects self awareness. Yeah. You know, because you're so focused on saving the relationship, keeping the relationship at its status quo. Right. And fearing that any kind of change is going to disrupt that. And again, you can see how that's connected to survival as a child. Yes. That if, if that's what you needed to do, it's what you needed to do.
speaker-1 (27:14.87)
You lose sight of it.
speaker-0 (27:42.19)
and that's what all of us did. And that's something to deeply acknowledge. Obviously, it exists on a spectrum. Some of us do that way more than others. And you know, we may have had a home, some of us may have had homes where it was okay to be authentic. You know, it's a rare thing. But there are people who have had experiences where they didn't need to edit themselves. You know, or their parents were quite accepting or their caregivers were quite accepting of who they are.
speaker-1 (28:05.102)
100%.
speaker-0 (28:11.266)
And there's something about people like that. You can actually see it in the entire sort of being and in their demeanor and how they show up in the world. There's a confidence they carry and a belief in themselves, which is really beautiful to acknowledge. Funny enough, I was watching a reel on Instagram.
And it was one of those things where you just, I just smiled at this person and it was essentially like this volleyball player. and so he has a lot of antics when he like spikes a ball, he gets a point and it was so wonderful to watch him. He was so deeply embodied and so unapologetic about the way that he showed up. And anyway, there's been a quite a bit of backlash because there was commentary made about him as the is, cause this is the world we live in now.
speaker-1 (28:59.086)
Thank
speaker-0 (29:09.486)
There was commentary made about him and his response was very much like, well, this is, you know, the world we live in and, I'm going to show up the way I want to. But someone said something in the comments that really I thought was amazing. And he said, like, look at the power you tap into when you just decide to be yourself and show up like that. Look at what happens because if I was inspired and really like, like just again, like
speaker-1 (29:33.495)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (29:36.022)
almost fascinated by watching this human show up unapologetically, then millions of other people have had the same, you know, experience of watching that. And so there's also that side of it where, again, it's not something we necessarily see often, but it's a really beautiful thing to watch someone exist and be so comfortable in their skin. Because, you know, we'll talk about this when we talk about the antidote to this, but these are permission to exist, you know, as you are.
and so, so there's also that aspect of self abandonment and you can see it in children. you know, where they trust in the abilities and they trust in the talents. Right. and yeah, and they, just have a whole different experience of life and of other people.
speaker-1 (30:23.182)
I love the fact that you mentioned about kids, you know, we spoke about the give and receive and obviously you say it's on the spectrum. We also have to understand as kids, as a parent or as a caregiver, there is more going to be more giving. I mean, so it's understanding these dynamics, these nuances too. And we'll speak more about too, about how compromise is also not self abandonment at times, but is it
speaker-0 (30:39.31)
to a chance.
speaker-1 (30:50.254)
been done from a fearful place, what of a loving space? I think that's important. But to come back to the children or the kids is that, you know, I love what you said, you know, the fact that they're so playful. And I've seen how caregivers and myself at times I've been, I've also been a perpetrator where things become really stressful. And I said, don't make so much noise, you know, like I'm trying to get things done.
But then you see how true they are when you allow them to just express themselves and be, and you sit with them in those moments where they allow to feel and just express themselves. Like this morning was getting done, it was chaos in our house this morning. Absolute chaos.
speaker-0 (31:33.358)
Remember those days. Yes. I'm glad it's over. But I empathize with you my friend.
speaker-1 (31:37.77)
So I I mean my wife and I in between the chaos of trying to make breakfast this morning get everything done My my eldest son was chasing our my what I call my my first son the dog Yeah with a sock in his mouth and they was chasing each other but it was complete chaos But the beauty about it was we left him Because you know again like I think about my childhood I wasn't allowed to express that
So for me, it was, if I look at him, he was able to do that. And we had such laughter about it. Because there's this little boy running around just being completely free and kind of enjoying their childhood. know, and again, like I said to you, the work that we've both done, I sit alongside my son now going like, I can actually do my work that I've been doing myself and see by...
allowing him to be and express and sit with him in some of his feelings that he can grow as a human being. I don't want him to have that inner critical voice one day. Yes. And I can play a very active role. So can any caregiver in how you talk to your child because my whole life I've been trying to get rid of that inner critic voice my whole life. And I've got to a point now where I'm finding for the last couple of years and yes there moments too.
but where I'm able to authentically state my claim in the world of who I am. And it's so beautiful because I can do that and watch my son and the impact it has on him. And I can see it in real time and not living out my life through him, but understanding that how I align to be in the world and share his emotions and sit with that at times, that he can have a different script.
speaker-0 (33:30.254)
That's such a heartfelt thank you. That's so absolutely. And like my heart literally smiles as I listened to you talk about that because, because I think this is the beauty of doing the work. know, and, and yeah, and, and I'm so proud of you, you know, for being willing to see it and see yourself because in truth, if you didn't see yourself and you weren't willing to face the shadow.
of yourself and all of the really uncomfortable stuff about you. Your child, your sons would have a very different experience of you now. But because you are willing to do that and you continue to be willing to do that, they get, you know, a very different dad. And like you say, a very different experience that you had. And to watch our children be liberated, you know.
to just being the authentic selves is, I think it's one of the greatest things to encounter as a parent, but also to be witnessed to. And that's one of the things I love about it too, you know, we often aligned on this is that witnessing our children, just being themselves and allowing that, the space for that, the space for them to embrace who they are, you know, without suppressing, the spot of themselves, suppressing the emotions.
speaker-1 (34:30.797)
Thanks.
speaker-0 (34:55.822)
my therapist and I were talking this week about particularly around, the people we trust without anger and authentic relationships are relationships where every emotion is welcome. Right. And even if there is a reaction from the other person in truth and acceptance, right. Because it doesn't mean that there isn't acceptance if they have a response to it, but they will not abandon you.
speaker-1 (35:04.238)
Hmm
speaker-1 (35:16.248)
That's right.
speaker-1 (35:25.55)
That's right.
speaker-0 (35:26.403)
When you show up with all parts of you. That's right. And that was one of the things she was pointing out. Cause I was saying like, had, I'm sure this person knows who they are, but, I had a bit of a, you know, a moment activated moment.
And I was like, was absolutely, was like fully in my feelings about it. And I knew as it was happening that it was something that was deeply embedded, which obviously means it's from my childhood because these are saying that's really helpful for people is if it's hysterical, it's historical.
speaker-1 (36:11.341)
Mmm. Love that.
speaker-0 (36:13.674)
bookmark that for yourself, you'll notice that anytime you go into something that's really, it's usually something from the past, but it was also about what was happening presently. So I couldn't say, well, it's not valid, right? Both are valid. And we were talking about that and she was saying, well, again, let me point out that when we are allowed to be annoyed, you know, angry,
activated and there's still a love and there's still an acceptance and though that's a really authentic relationship and in truth quite safe.
speaker-1 (36:44.63)
I love that. just have to interrupt. I think it's Carl Rogers. He says that, particularly on self abandonment. So when you, when someone you'd noticed what you do and the behaviors that you go to in that moment, you ask yourself the deeper question because a lot of times people, were lacking empathy in relationships. They weren't allowed to express them.
speaker-0 (36:46.786)
Yes, no, go ahead.
speaker-1 (37:13.45)
So he says, I can imagine how this would have felt for me. How did that feel for you? So it's almost like you're allowing them to go deeper than just the initial kind of behavior. And I love that because like, again, isn't it amazing when people do show up with more empathy in relationships? That there's this openness that you're allowed to express that. Because many times we weren't allowed to in some settings.
speaker-0 (37:40.404)
No, I mean, the amount of restriction that some of us have experienced in exactly, think it's in the big stuff. It's also in the subtlety, you know, around maybe you were, often think about this is, and I've tried to remember it with my children as well, which is that, you know, when you are disciplined or you get a consequence for something, how you're not allowed to express your dissatisfaction with that.
or you're hurt with that or your grief around that. When actually it's quite normal. I've messed up. I've got a consequence, but now I need to shut up and shut that down. I'm not allowed to express how this is affecting me. And that's obviously where I think as a parent, I felt it myself. I've definitely seen it in obviously my own parents when they had to do that with us, which is that that's where the, you know,
shut it down, you're not allowed to say anything about what I just said. It's kind of like that conflict that occurs because there's such a discomfort for the parent and an anxiety for the parent, also self-abandoned with their children. Exactly. But what I mean by that is particularly with not necessarily setting boundaries with your children. And we see that often. It's because you are afraid of the effect it's going to have on the relationship.
speaker-1 (38:48.59)
Of course. It's a reminder.
speaker-0 (39:03.254)
And so even with your children, you self-abandon. You go, whoa, you know, your satisfaction with me and your happiness with me and your approval of me is actually what matters. And again, I want to say this. Of course, I'm glad if my children are happy with me. I'm sure it's the same with you. You know, if I've done something or whatever, and you know, I also feel the discomfort of that, but authenticity would dictate and would encourage you to say,
we can sit through this bit of discomfort, but you know what? This is honest. This is an honest exchange. I will not lie to you because inadvertently what I'm teaching you is also to self abandon. Right? I'm actually modeling to you self abandonment when I don't stick by my word. Then I'm not honest with you and I'm not truthful and I don't set that boundary. I'm modeling
speaker-1 (39:45.966)
100%.
speaker-0 (39:58.92)
some form of abandonment, you will most likely repeat that on some level. Right? So there's also that, you know what I mean? That yes, this is, mean, like these, they beautifully layered. my goodness. Human.
speaker-1 (40:15.822)
Yeah, think, Shami, if I, I mean, maybe just to kind of elaborate on that, I think as a child, often do we see in terms of maybe a child wanting to assert a boundary, let's say for instance, it's a family member and they offer them a suite and they don't necessarily want to take it because whatever it is, they don't feel comfortable. If you tell them, why are being so rude? Take that suite from your auntie.
speaker-0 (40:40.864)
Yes, let him kiss you. how cute.
speaker-1 (40:44.842)
So what are you telling someone? You're someone you always have to please someone else if you don't feel the need to do it. That's it. So we must be very mindful of this too and how we play a role in how we set those boundaries like kids. Another kind of thing that happened and it was so beautiful for me. And again, like I'm saying, on my own evolution is we've got the shadow work and I love how the shadow work creeps up on people again and again. So I remember my son and the typical reaction in the past.
would have been, he dropped something and it made a huge mess. I would go, what did you do? Why did you do that? Pick it up. Let it happen. And I see the acknowledgement, the look towards me to see how I'm responding to this. And I go, it's okay, We'll pick this up. And then I remember, say we all make mistakes. And I remember, Shyamala, not too long after, about two weeks after that,
It was chaotic and I sold again. can see the camera. And my wife, I can't remember what the incident was, but she did sign my son, turn around and said, don't worry, mom, we all make mistakes. so can you see how important this is? We don't realize that they mimic us. They watch us like you're saying how we set boundaries when we don't set boundaries. So when you see reenactment happening, it's because it's a lived experience for them.
speaker-0 (41:45.87)
We accept.
speaker-0 (42:12.153)
100%. Yeah. I mean, if you're still under the illusion that your children do as you say, and they don't do as you do, we have news for you. They do as you do. And that's the reality. And that's, you know, the truth of your reality is that that is happening.
speaker-1 (42:12.161)
experience.
speaker-0 (42:35.06)
You touched on earlier on people pleasing. Yeah. Which is an interesting one for me because if we look at the characteristics of someone who is the seasoned self-abandoner, they are often the people who are ignoring their own needs, whether that's basic or something more intricate. They are suppressing the emotions and the true self. Yeah. They're often seeking external validation, right? So what the other...
says and things matters. They also neglect their personal desires. In fact, it may not even be something that's even on your radar. The thing that I resonate with is, is they have a really loud self-critic. I both of us. That's been a journey with that. I can happily say and gratefully with absolute gratitude say that my self-critic isn't as loud anymore.
You know, it doesn't show up as much anymore. I think I've learned to amplify the voice that reframes things for me in a way that's really compassionate and loving toward myself. And that's daily work. Moment to moment work. Please do not think that this is one big moment you get to. have, you know, crossed the threshold in therapy or, you know, you have a breath work session and like, oh, you were enlightened.
speaker-1 (43:50.658)
to
speaker-0 (44:02.254)
There's no such thing. This is just like the quiet choices repeated over time of self abandonment. It's the same way with working your way back to yourself is that you learn to tune down the voice of the self-critic by amplifying the compassionate voice. So we can't erase the self-critical voice. We can only amplify the voice of compassion. And the one that offers us a reframe where we
are allowed to be human in any of our pursuits, in any of our experiences. But the big one coming back to people pleasing, because I was thinking about the spiritual implications of self abandonment. It's very big. It's really, I think it's, mean, probably because you and I are very spiritually inclined, we often think of it as the biggest one, because it's so fundamental, right, to our lives. But that people pleasing,
speaker-1 (44:34.51)
.
speaker-1 (44:46.542)
is a big one.
speaker-0 (45:03.24)
I almost want to say, let me hold your hand when I say this. In a loving way that people pleasing is a form of manipulation.
And I needed to acknowledge that about myself. And I, I'm not saying that this is something you decided to do and that you did consciously, but in truth, what we need to acknowledge is that we can often speak about, like, for example, with narcissism, we can speak about this overt individual who just overtly manipulates you and you can see it, right? If you catch it enough times, but there's nothing.
like being manipulated by someone who does it with sweetness and kindness. There is nothing like experiencing that. And that's often where we experience COVID narcissism. And so people pleasing often masquerades as kindness. Right? And so when we do that, when we masquerade,
you know, our people pleasing masquerades as kindness or sweetness or like, I just want to be nice. I want to be this nice person. It actually costs us our authenticity. It creates insane emotional exhaustion. there we go. That is the word. Yes. That's the big one. Like people pleasing people who tend to people pleasing are often chronic resenters.
speaker-1 (46:14.689)
Of course.
and resentment.
speaker-1 (46:29.762)
Yes. I've seen it play out. Yeah.
speaker-0 (46:32.078)
I mean, I felt it myself. And it's funny because this happened years ago. I was actually working in addictions at that time. I was working in primary addictions care. And I was listening to one of my colleagues do a lecture with the patients, the inpatients, and she was talking about resentment. And then I realized that through my people pleasing, yeah, I felt almost entitled to my resentment.
speaker-1 (46:59.822)
Mmm.
speaker-0 (47:00.972)
Because that's what it created like this, you know, because, sometimes people pleases can also be these people that elevate themselves above others. You know, like I think about the greater and I think about the group and I think, mean, listen, I'm speaking from experience. And so that was also something obviously that was in my own shadow that I needed to, face and acknowledge is that. Yeah. It just keeps you stuck in this.
Yeah, and the subtle sometimes and often covert exchange with people and dynamic with people where what you are doing is you are shape shifting. You are changing your behavior to fit whatever they need in order to keep the relationship and the person. Tell me how that's not manipulation. But the thing is, is that we don't, because it's again, under the guise of kindness and niceness, it's very hard to spot it.
speaker-1 (47:57.518)
Of course
speaker-0 (47:58.786)
But like, it's quite a thing again, like, I think it's a thing to acknowledge.
speaker-1 (48:03.678)
Look, Shami, I see this without saying too much. I see this play out every single day in a work context. Some friendships, luckily not in my friendships. I think I've become too authentic to allow that to happen to me. It's some sort of self-abandoning if I were to do that. But I do think it's also got to do, there's something I read as well, it's called object relations theory. Yes.
and it's rooted in psychodynamic theory.
speaker-0 (48:35.542)
It's it's very central to developmental psychology.
speaker-1 (48:41.294)
I just love the the illustration that was done and obviously we don't have the illustration to show today But I think the concept remains though When we see the world and others as this massive kind of if you kind of think of a circle And you think of a massive circle If you look at it like that, and then you see yourself as a small tiny circle next to it
That's when you kind of tend to abandon people because you think that you need to fit in with others and everything is so big and large out there and you can't you can't really show up in that authentic version of who you are because the world is such a scary place and you need to please in order to fit in. Yes. But all you need to do is kind of reframe that a bit and realize that actually the self without abandoning who you are and live authentically, you just change the circles around. So.
you are this big circle, right? And the world and others is a small circle. And it doesn't mean that you now become someone that's conceited, whatever. It means you truly understand who you are and what value you bring. And you can see others for what they bring. But the world doesn't become a scary place and this place that's unknown to you. And I love that analogy because I think so many times, and I'm speaking from experience, these things you've mentioned.
these traits, these qualities, I've been there, done it all. I've been there, done it all and still working through some of them. And I can face the situations where I still go like, you know, I got to think about it after this, I could have possibly done that better. All right. Then I hopefully next time I will remember that boundary. Like you've given me to be human. Yes. And like you're saying, you know, giving your nervous system that space to allow a new dynamic to kind of settle in and ingrain yourself in your nervous system.
speaker-0 (50:07.971)
See?
speaker-0 (50:20.014)
Give yourself permission.
speaker-1 (50:31.65)
But by doing that, you ultimately give yourself the truth and that becomes a new reality for you. When you do make those, like you say, those small decisions that community add up to not self-abandon. And I really loved this, what I read as well. There's a guy called Kirk Goodall and Albert Einstein. He speaks about the relationship to time and how you are not implicated in other people's mind stream.
speaker-0 (51:00.358)
please explain that to our audience.
speaker-1 (51:02.078)
we think we think like, because of our view, worldview, our lens, whatever you want to call it, we assume that others think of us in a certain way. And if we don't behave in a certain way that is possibly going to please them, they're going to think something of us, whether it's obviously maybe it's more negative bound. But there's going to be some assumption that we think in our minds that they're going to think about us. And that drives the behaviors that people pleasing like you're speaking other behaviors. But actually, to realize that
I'm not implicated in their story of what they think about me. All I can do is authentically live in who I am and show up because that's all you can do. And once you realize that you are, let's be honest to you Shambhna, people are so caught up in their own lives. They don't actually think about you as much as you think they do. Let's just be honest to you. And I think so many people go out in the world thinking like, I have to be perceived in a certain way. I have to be
you know, especially in a work context. That's why they self abandon so many times. They put in that extra work. I'm going to get that promotion. I'm going to be seen as a top employee and then what? And then what? So, you know, like again, I understand it. I'm not speaking from a place like you're saying of like now again, like, well, I've I'm better than that. Yeah. I go through the stuff daily too. Yes. But I've been able to not.
take that true authentic self of who I really want to be in the world show up and that for me has been through my faith. Literally what the Word says about who I am. There was one of the articles you sent to me, it's a lovely verse in there. It's in John 10 verse 10. It says, the thief comes to kill and destroy, where I come to give life and life abundantly.
So if you remember that, and if you also think in your identity and who you are rooted in, whatever you believe in, and how you're supposed to see yourself, because remember, if you choose that life, you can't just take components of it to suit the lifestyle you want to live. You need to embody that and live that because that ultimately is your home of what you're going to. So if you, speak about this often, Shamila, about the time you have on this earth, about how you live and authentically what they will be.
speaker-1 (53:21.666)
I'm sure you'd one day go and look back and go like, you're not going to want to go, I'm glad our people pleased this person, the heck out of them. they must like you so much. Actually, they're going to go home tonight and go, I got what I wanted from you. That's the reality of it.
speaker-0 (53:35.31)
There we go. Yeah, that is it you touch on the transactionality of life and often relationships as well that we have to acknowledge and bring ourselves into the truth of, which is often the thing that liberates us from these relationships that are not serving us and not serving a higher good. Because again, that also has a spiritual implication is that you're not in your integrity.
You know, and with people pleasing with the contour team to fit a relationship. We also included in that is that intuition, you know, that, that speaks to you often. know what I mean? That you, and this is a thing that I also related to is how sometimes you downplay your gifts so that you can be relatable. Absolutely. And that, that, just keeps you in that.
speaker-1 (54:27.054)
Wow, then we all do that.
speaker-0 (54:32.586)
cycle of self abandonment. And there's a quote from Jennifer Urizio, I hope I said that correctly, where she says, self abandonment often keeps the most gifted seeking instead of embodying. I love that because when you deeply intuitive, the truth is you do know, of course, right. And this is where the self abandonment comes in. But because
speaker-1 (54:46.113)
Mm.
speaker-0 (54:58.968)
true to the attachment theory that you mentioned earlier and true to the saying that I, that I most often quote, I think in my practice and with people is the one by Gabbo Marte, which is when authenticity threatens attachment, attachment wins. essentially what that means is that if there's not enough space for you and you haven't cultivated enough capacity within yourself to be your authentic self within a relationship.
the attachment will win because you're working from a fear of losing that attachment. But of course the, the work there is working on yourself so deeply and filling your life with other people and healthy attachments that you are willing to risk that attachment. Right. And so, yeah, it just creates this, this continuous cycle where, yeah, you're seeking and you know.
You know what's good for you. You know what's healthy. You're second guessing yourself. You're doubting yourself. You're doubting your experience. You gaslight yourself and you go, no, I don't think that that's really what they meant. I don't think that was a true experience of, know, I think I might've been imagining that, you know, whatever it is that you need to say to yourself in order to keep again, the job, the relationship, the environment, way that it is. And so,
Again, I want to remind us that we all do this as a matter of survival. None of this is when we speak about this. You know, I have a deep compassion for it and a deep compassion for this kind of work because you really, really have to allow yourself to see yourself as human. And that we are born literally into this world and conceived with needs. Right.
speaker-1 (56:33.486)
course.
speaker-1 (56:49.176)
Definitely.
speaker-0 (56:56.214)
and that every single human being has needs. And when you deny that, you're really denying your humanity. And you're right to something that's fundamental of life. Being able to have your needs met and meet another's needs. And I mean, those are things that often come up in relationships as well, which is like how your needs not being met and how you're not meeting the other person's needs. And that you're not shamed for it.
You know, because there's a lot of that that happens. So I think you and I, when we started, when I walked into the studio and I said, it's emotional. think we both, I looked at you and I think we both remembered the grief and you know, that we had gotten to a place of grief around the loss associated with self abandonment.
And I think that was something that really brought me deeper into my own heart space and also allowed me to soften with myself. So we talk about that self-critical voice, which is really loud and very harsh and often very clinical and detached with us and the compassionate reframe and then the softening towards the self of like, wow, you know, there you were seeking the thing that every human being seeks.
And so just wanted to share an excerpt on the grief around self-abandonment. I thought I'd just read it directly from, this is by Amy Crandall. And she says, grief is asking you to turn toward the parts of yourself that never got to be fully loved or safely expressed and to stop waiting for someone else to grant them permission to matter.
It's in the grief of having to teach someone how to love you. It's in the grief of being called selfish for being who you are. It's in the mother wound, the betrayal wound, the healer's burden. The grief of hiding yourself for love often gets wrapped up in shame. Shame for being too much, for needing too deeply, for not healing fast enough. But it wasn't shame that buried those parts. It was survival. That part makes me so tearful.
speaker-0 (59:21.464)
Grief is asking you to choose her, the soft, wild, fiercely loving, profoundly intuitive version of you who had to be buried to keep others comfortable. And not just choose her, stand beside her, stay with her, grieve what she's lost, let her speak. Because here's the heartbreak and the sacredness of it. That version of you, the one who wanted to be loved.
without having to contour herself. She's still in there. She's been carrying a lifetime of uncried tears, unsaid truths, and unmet needs. She doesn't want a quick fix. She doesn't need a resolution. She needs your companionship in the grief.
speaker-0 (01:00:11.822)
Crocodile tears.
speaker-1 (01:00:12.494)
Yeah. So isn't it just to say to yourself, I am whole and complete already.
speaker-0 (01:00:21.07)
Mm.
speaker-1 (01:00:23.692)
My life matters in itself.
No performance.
Just my humanity showing up for authentically what I was created to be in this world and shine my light for others. I know how much that meant to you. I also want to say, I think about this is probably going a level deeper. Shambhu, you've probably seen this. But the person that's going to trigger you the most if you're married is your partner.
speaker-0 (01:01:01.083)
Thank you for bringing us back to reality, Lincoln.
speaker-1 (01:01:03.63)
And because the reason why that all happened, Shabila, is because there's those unhealed parts of you that you're almost going to sometimes expect your partner to fulfill. 100%. So there's a part that you find really attractive about someone you met them and that's super important. But then there's a deeper level when you're getting to the thick of things in life where the expectation is that your partner is going to have to numb some of the pain that was given in childhood.
And that's where the work also really begins. And how you parents you. that journey for me. That is, it's loud. It's messy.
speaker-0 (01:01:40.056)
percent.
speaker-0 (01:01:48.718)
Yeah... Yeah...
speaker-1 (01:01:51.374)
All I can say is it's, someone mentioned that the day I can't remember what podcast is listening to. And the guy was so right. He says this, the inner work of kind of self abandonment. He said, sometimes it can feel like a, a loud warning in your head. Like you don't want to sit with that discomfort. But he says, that's the beauty. Don't run. Just sit with that and works with that.
And I've realized some of my own insecurities that I've had in my life. I've spoken about the tension I grew up in. There have been times that I've expected my wife to understand without sharing the needs that I needed from her. And those are moments that I've broken down, ugly tears in front of her and said to her like, this is the reason why I act this way is because I never received that. But I think that's this episode is so
speaker-0 (01:02:37.845)
Wow.
speaker-1 (01:02:47.704)
kind of deep because I think none of us have avoided this on a level or any level. Some of us are literally living that at the moment, knowing how do I possibly create another template for myself that I all that I know, I don't really know I'm stuck. How do I get past this? And Shama you've probably done work with people in this situation. How do I?
speaker-0 (01:03:12.907)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (01:03:15.662)
How do I, Shamila move from a space where I feel like just victim of where I am right now. Um, and maybe get to a space of trying to reframe a different reality for myself.
speaker-0 (01:03:28.524)
I mean, thank you also for sharing that. feel like we just, yeah, we are full of, think, permission giving grief. There's so much of that. And so, yeah, I just want to encourage people to please just grieve before we get to the antidote for this and the way forward is grieve fully and completely. You know, allow yourself to go there because it's so valid.
speaker-1 (01:03:52.93)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:03:58.816)
It's so valid and you are so worthy of taking up that space and allowing your body to relax and to give into and to release all of what you've been holding around this, know, all the ways in which you've contorted, know, edited yourself and suppressed and silenced and shrunk and all of those things. so, and so that's, that's the antidote. It's as simple as that. And as complex as that, which is that
You need permission, you know, and you don't need permission from other people. It's permission from yourself. That's really what it is. So the question that comes through with the antidote is, you willing to disappoint others real or imagined rather than betray yourself? So that's a good question to start with. If you want to delve deeper into this and you want to begin, you know, your process.
And journey into to looking at this. I think a lot of it is actually dropping into the wisdom and the intelligence of your body. Yeah, and becoming a keen listener and feeler and sensor. And again, you know.
It's not theoretical knowledge. It's not about what you cognitively can, you know, comprehend from all of this and what we've spoken about today. This is about where do I feel this? What happens in my body when the thought of telling someone the truth about my experience enters? What happens? Yeah. Right. So dropping into the body, I encourage you to do somatic work, nervous system healing. And the reason I say that is because again,
we can talk for hours about the cognitive effect of this and also like how this is, you know, experienced and processed through the mind. But your true liberation is going to come through nervous system realignment, creating a new pathway for yourself, creating a new way from the body. So it's a bottom up experience, right? We remember again, those nervous system imprints,
speaker-0 (01:06:13.464)
There are such automated responses. That's really what that is. It's an automated response. Most of the time it's unconscious. You don't even know you're doing it until you're doing it. Right. So it's like someone's requested something of you. You've agreed before you even had a moment to think about it.
speaker-1 (01:06:31.606)
I've done that recently. All right.
speaker-0 (01:06:34.314)
So there we go. It still happens, right? Because it's so automated and so unconscious. And again, this is the depth of this work. And also, again, the survival that we speak about, right? This need to survive and to have love, even if that's a dysfunctional love, even if that's an unhealthy love, a pathological love, that's your definition of it.
And that's where you find safety. And that's how we start. So I would, you know, encourage you to drop into your body. There's a permission you have to give yourself. And again, reminding you that just like self abandonment is small, quiet decisions. So is permission giving. It's small, quiet decisions to say, I'm going to take these two hours to myself and not give it to someone else when, you know,
speaker-1 (01:07:04.353)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:07:31.02)
the soft critical voice or whatever it is that exists in my head says absolutely not. You don't get to have this. You should be making time for others. Right? How do you be selfish? How do you, you know, the boundary with me, whatever that is. Of course, a major part of this is boundary setting.
speaker-1 (01:07:49.102)
I just want to go back to the example, Sharmila. It was a beautiful example I saw a couple of weeks back from one of the employees in a WhatsApp group. So this person had taken the day's leave for their birthday. And obviously people were sending some message on the group, which the person didn't respond, but I'm sure they were grateful for receiving just the messages. And then I saw a while later, she said, thank you. And then she posts another message. She said, thank you for the messages.
Please do not message me by the work. This is my day off. And we can discuss work tomorrow when I'm back. I don't do it to you when you guys are on leave, so don't do it to me, please. It was a beautiful example of someone that understands her worth. And I find it so amazing because like it takes courage to do that. And the courage shown to do that. And yet she did it without a flinch. And I read that and go, good on you, person. Absolutely. Good on you.
speaker-0 (01:08:35.854)
Absolutely.
speaker-0 (01:08:46.062)
Thank
speaker-1 (01:08:46.321)
Because sometimes some people kind of see sometimes a work context as a family dynamic, but they can't draw the distinction at times. And it was such a clear reminder to people, which was actually I loved. I just kind of went into my mind in my body. Yes.
speaker-0 (01:09:03.97)
Yes, you were celebrating. Absolutely. And I love I love the clarity.
speaker-1 (01:09:09.473)
Yes, there was no ambiguity about that. There we go. I appreciate it, but please don't disturb him or if I had work. There we go. Back at work, we can chat about it. But for now, let me enjoy my time. I've set aside for whatever she decided to do. And it was beautiful.
speaker-0 (01:09:24.877)
So that's an example to me of that alignment we speak about is that you have to choose alignment over approval. So think about that. That's really what it is. The work of coming back to yourself. That's what self abandonment is, is coming back to you and asking yourself, what do you want? What are your needs? What are your desires? I mean, do an exercise where you write this down.
At the at beginning of this year, I think with the end of last year, there's a woman I follow and she has something called a desire contract. Yeah, it's quite interesting. And I mean, you know, these many ways to interpret the word desire. Yeah. Just to put it out there. But it was really about like, is it? What is it that you you really want? Have you ever given yourself permission? And one of the exercises is without thinking, you just write and list, list, list, list.
speaker-1 (01:09:58.753)
Okay, wow, that's amazing.
speaker-0 (01:10:19.384)
What are your desires? It's actually profound to watch where your mind goes. Sure. And also the permission you give yourself when someone asks you that question to actually do this exercise and write it. I was amazed at the stuff I wrote down. Yeah. Excited about the stuff I wrote down. And just like, wow, it's all in there. You know it, but this is it. It's the alignment. I think why that probably resonated with you is because
There was such deep honesty and clarity and authenticity in what she was saying. And what's interesting about that is that to the people who are willing to have healthy relationships, that will never be a threat. It will never be a threat. But to the people who are not willing to have those relationships, that is threatening behavior. And so you can see where and where you understand that from, comprehend that from and interpret that from matters. So
speaker-1 (01:11:01.026)
Never.
speaker-1 (01:11:15.841)
Of course.
speaker-0 (01:11:18.092)
I'm saying that because you're going to go away thinking, yeah, but that sounds easy, Shamila, because it's going to mean that there's a lot of relationships I've got to give up or places and environments. I've got to give up. Yeah. That's the cost of it. Yeah. And that's the truth. That's how you build self-trust again. That's right. You spoke about that becomes eroded over time is that you lose the connection to yourself and your authentic self. So yes, that is often what it is you need to give up. But again, you need to ask yourself, I
I'm okay for that. Am I okay to do that? Am I okay? Can I survive that? And if you can't yet, that's totally fine. But maybe just do take a step every day. Take a step every day to getting to that point where you are subtly not abandoning yourself in those small ways and you're choosing alignment as opposed to approval of others.
speaker-1 (01:11:54.798)
Mine.
speaker-1 (01:12:10.798)
I love that. That's it's very useful, practical. And like I say, it's a small moments. You know, you get invited to an event or an art team and you feel like I'm really depleted. You decide to say no, instead of saying yes. It's a small moments, those choices you make in those moments. They call the hinge moments. I was hanging on a hinge and you decide, do you go with that automatic response you spoke about? Or do you take a time to pause and then respond?
Because it'll be very different, very different. I have an appointment once a month that it's quite important to me that I attend. And in the past, what I've done is I've cut the time really short between leaving work and getting to this appointment. And my decision was kind of based from self abandonment. Going, what would they think if I left a bit earlier, would I be seen as a bad employee that I'm not given enough? And I came to a point where I realized I was getting to this appointment rushed.
not being present enough to enjoy this appointment. And the whole purpose of appointment is to do work on this other stuff. So I was thinking like, why am I self abandoning? What is this inherent feeling that I have that people are gonna kind of see me? Yes. In a way? Yes. And I just decided there and then, this is now obviously a time back. I decided, you know what? No one is gonna think any different of me if I make the boundary and say, I'm actually gonna leave an hour earlier.
Because this is important to me, not to you, but to me, for me to show up authentically for the people that matter and the context. And yourself. And myself. And myself. importantly. Myself. I could go making that one small decision. meant I could go and be more rested. Enjoy the experience, fully immersed and come out of the understanding that it's important about how you treat yourself.
because you actually give permission to treat others in the way that they treat you, but how you treat yourself. So that was one small example that has made a massive difference in terms of now seeing that it wasn't that bad. No one thinks any differently of me. So that's just one example that I thought I'd want to share as well.
speaker-0 (01:14:28.5)
Yeah, I mean, it just feels like an important example. And as we speak about this and, you know, we've been talking for such a while now and I almost want to say we might come back and talk about this again, you know, and invite other people to come and to us about it because it's such a fundamental topic. But also I'm again struck by how layered it is, how there's so many dimensions to this.
speaker-1 (01:14:56.238)
to you.
speaker-0 (01:14:57.132)
You know, because we are spiritually abandoning, we're physically abandoning, we abandoning in our relationships. There's so many ways in which we do it. You know, and you've got to look at what are the things that are most, I think, implicated and has the greatest, I guess, implication for you in your life. And yeah, I'm grateful to be where I am with it. You know, these...
yeah, there's no greater way to begin work on something than to invite it in. And clearly, you know, those moments seven years ago was like, right, we ready for that. You know, and nothing can actually prepare you for where this will take you, you know. But it's incredible work. It's work that really helps you root, truly root. You know, if you're someone who struggles with grounding, or you have a very dysregulated
speaker-1 (01:15:36.91)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:15:55.542)
or often dysregulated nervous system. And you get there often, this is some of the truths that's going to help ground you and root you into something that's true for you and authentic for you. And awaken you to what are your true values. So this is work that's worth it. It really is such a relief. I find myself just exhaling even after this conversation.
speaker-1 (01:16:06.294)
you.
speaker-1 (01:16:12.813)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (01:16:16.514)
beautiful place to get.
speaker-0 (01:16:25.14)
and thankfully doing it with you. also because I think you've been witness to my life. know what I mean? You've been witness to my life. And so I know that you have a very different appreciation and view of what I speak about. Yeah, because we both know these things about each other, which is wonderful. And yeah, it brings me to something that I was...
Also something I probably saw a conversation on social media about the experience of love. Again, coming back to we heal in relationships. Often we often find permission in relationships as well to exist as we are. And this person said that to be loved is to be known. I love that definition. And I thought that is absolutely true is to be known in all of you.
You know, so that's what I feel, you know? Yeah.
speaker-1 (01:17:23.944)
So beautiful. So much. much. So we've been chatting for quite a while today. Yeah. And that's like we said, know, the human story is not a place for instant answers. No, you just come and sit with us. Yeah. And kind of sit, part of the conversation really, more than getting to any kind of answers. And I really feel that we'll probably come back to this. There's so many other things about this.
the formed response that you all these things, there's so many things. I mean, it's very layered. But I think maybe just on my part, I was going to say, maybe if this resonates with you, ask yourself maybe a few questions. Where did I learn to ignore myself? Where am I still saying yes when I actually mean no? And who do I become? When I'm afraid of not being accepted. Oh, that's a big one.
speaker-0 (01:18:20.974)
Beautiful one.
speaker-1 (01:18:21.964)
That is a big one. Because I've seen that in myself and others play out so many times. And it's so, so true. So self abandonment isn't something to feel ashamed of. It's something to become aware of. Because the moment you see it, is the moment you can start choosing yourself again.
speaker-0 (01:18:44.19)
I love that. I love that. You've chosen yourself. I know that you have. I've chosen myself. And when you meet someone who's chosen themselves, you know that they carry a very different energy. Absolutely. Amen. They really do. They show up differently. And for the most part, they give you permission to show up authentically and, you know, fully within yourself. And that's...
speaker-1 (01:18:52.215)
So.
speaker-1 (01:18:58.539)
Amen.
speaker-0 (01:19:13.772)
That's really what we hope to convey with the human story and these, you know, multidimensional conversation with so much nuance attached to it because this is not black and white, just like the human experience isn't a black and white experience. But we year for the evolution, you know, we year for the living, we year for the... And that's, I think that's what I'm left with, you know, after all the grief. I mean, even throughout that,
I've often felt like someone who really enjoys living. And it's really just renewed and recalibrated so much for me, that it really is about, wow, how do I want to live now? You know, there's this excitement attached to it, like what's possible now? know? Yeah. And to live from that place, that place of deep self-trust.
speaker-1 (01:19:46.381)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (01:20:08.898)
I think I just want to end off probably something I just thought about now, we've been friends for over 20 odd years. And I think we both spoke about it before doing this podcast today saying how we've kind of missed spending time with each other and doing this podcast. And two ladies for me when I saw you today, I was really happy to see you and genuinely have an interest in you because you're someone that's done a long journey with me. And like I say, there's renewed energy when I spend time with you and it's really a beautiful place to be with you in this podcast.
But I think about self-abandoning journey for me and my journey with therapy and choosing myself and then having a voice after going to therapy and not self-abandoning anymore and then choosing to do this podcast with someone like you made me realize that this is where that work lays in. What are those true callings you have to want to give back to the world?
That could not happen if you don't do the work. So part of where I'm sitting today and doing this podcast with you and having a voice where I felt I had to be silent at times and not really thinking that anything I say matters or would add value is going like, look at where it possibly can take if you're willing to do that work. Wow. And that's who I am today. And that's why we can have these conversations because suddenly I'm tapping into that authentic self of who I believe I should be in this world.
and all I can actually present is that. There's nothing else I can do. And I thought about that it's just, it's such a beautiful thing to have realization right now while you're speaking, because essentially that work has got me to where I'm talking to you right now.
speaker-0 (01:21:50.51)
Absolutely, and to show up fully. You know, I think which is, yeah, the thing that happens in the room that we can't always translate, you know, and in the conversation, which I think does come through on some level. But yeah, thank you for that acknowledgement and absolutely the same, 100%, that these are an authentic space, you know, and an honesty.
in our friendship and in our relationship is because none of us, we don't turn away from the others. You know what I mean? There's space for that and the relief of that again, you know, I speak about the relief of that. But also the joy to be able to be in that place authentically and relationally with someone. There's really a joy in that because it's so imperfect. You know what I mean? It's such an imperfect place, but it's also such a
speaker-1 (01:22:24.854)
stuff.
speaker-1 (01:22:41.56)
get you.
speaker-0 (01:22:46.414)
Yeah, a joyous place.
speaker-1 (01:22:47.47)
Also, mean, I know we talk, we're speaking a bit longer than we should, but I think it's important that we speak about this. I think also, if I think about our relationship and the fact that we are friends and we have this deep connection as friends, also allows you to give permission of what you should be getting. Does it make sense?
speaker-0 (01:23:07.534)
100 % deeply. Like I literally felt that drop right down to my toes.
speaker-1 (01:23:12.046)
And I think it's important to tell people that like the deep connections you have allows you to write a new script to say like if I've been accepting less than what I should be, that's it. This is the moment for me to get clarity of what I should be getting and be able to express that need.
speaker-0 (01:23:28.522)
I love that so much. And the reason I love that is because one of the things I've seen about, you know, eventually being in a romantic relationship again, or being in a partnership again, is that my friends have set the standard for that. So I've realized that again, is that my friends, you know, set the standard for that experience.
And it's exactly what you're saying, which is that I want what they are able to give me, you know, in a long-term partnership. And that doesn't mean I want someone exactly like them. The liberation I feel in those relationships, the honesty, the truthfulness, the love, the compassion, all of those things that, and the safety, that's a big one.
speaker-1 (01:24:12.814)
I
speaker-1 (01:24:22.904)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:24:27.064)
That's what I want. So they set the standard. They are the most beautiful beings to set the standard because they all are genuinely, you know, also doing deep work on themselves and who are such clear mirrors to me. Cause that's the gift. The gift is when someone is able to hold up the mirror without projection. That's a, I mean, it takes, it takes some work to get there and to get to relationships where
that does happen, but they can, there are people in the world that can hold up this mirror for you and who hold your hand through it and say, Hey, yeah, I got it too. Like, you know, it's messy like you look at us. Yeah, isn't any judgment. And there's just such beautiful acceptance of that. So.
speaker-1 (01:24:58.232)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (01:25:14.286)
On that note, Shami, I know it's been a beautiful conversation. taken me to many different spaces, places, and also the realizations I've had while busy talking. Some of the things have come to me, has been amazing. I'm so appreciative of it. But just to go back to the beginning of the episode, we saw a song that I shared with you. When I heard it the first time, it brought tears to my eyes because it takes me on a journey I think is so relatable for me.
the message behind it about finding your truth eventually and now living it and what that actually means for you, the freedom and
speaker-0 (01:25:53.486)
Can you tell us though who, cause I think a lot of people will know who this is obviously, but tell us about the.
speaker-1 (01:26:00.942)
Okay, so let me just shape it for you quickly. there was someone about probably just more than a decade ago that write a song, I took a pull in Ibiza, Mike Posner. You know the song, you'll know it if you hear. And so obviously speaks about when he was a DJ in Ibiza and spending time with Avicii, you know Avicii's past, God bless his soul. But he speaks about his journey, finding his journey back from the once in the knees of Hollywood.
speaker-0 (01:26:11.278)
for witness.
speaker-1 (01:26:30.444)
and kind of find the true version and I think he's a bit of a face story behind it, you'll kind of hear it too. But it's such a beautiful song, it encompasses pretty much what we're speaking about today, coming back to that true authentic need of what you want to be as a human being and living that art. So all I can say is it's beautiful. It's the acoustic version of the song. Shami, I don't know if you want to say anything, but yeah.
speaker-0 (01:26:53.798)
Yeah, I think we'll say goodbye to everybody before we play the song. And I just wanted to say thank you for joining us once again for all of your support and the comments that we receive and the feedback that I get is just wonderful because it really feels like we're on this journey with all of you. Yeah. You know, and that these conversations are resonating and really, you know, finding that humanity and the common thread between all of us.
So to say, yeah, I wish you alignment over approval and deep love in that place.
speaker-1 (01:27:30.126)
So without further ado, this is such a beautiful grinding to this episode and may you take the time just to sit and reflect as you think about some of this where it takes you. Until next time from The Human Story, we'll catch you again.
speaker-1 (01:28:15.73)
I'm trying to start a little family Cause all the things I was taking and decisions I was making had me headed towards tragedy But now I really
Now I really wanna shine my light You know I just wanna give what I got to the world and then
speaker-1 (01:28:42.418)
I only get this one life so I think I'm gonna give my life up to God cuz he's got me back on stage singing got me back on stage singing
speaker-1 (01:29:01.986)
Love songs. Love songs.
speaker-1 (01:29:15.518)
Song I'm just a human I'm trying to do what's true to me But the fame and the money and the ghost of my 20s try to make me who I used to be but God's got my back. Yeah
So every time I feel fear I give thanks I'm alive Almost died two times There's a reason that I'm still right here You know I just wanna live my life Now I really wanna shine my light You know I just wanna give what I got to the world And then go back home Cause I only get this one life So I think I'm gonna give my life up to-
Because he's got me back on stage singing Got me back on stage singing
speaker-1 (01:30:20.27)
Well that was the human story brought to you by Yogged Media. Stay tuned for more on the human story.
speaker-0 (01:30:24.535)
Thanks.