Loneliness- The Connection We Are Searching For

In this episode of The Human Story hosted by Yoked media, Lincoln and Shaamiela explore the growing experience of loneliness in modern life and what it reveals about our need for connection, belonging, and meaning.

Together, they unpack:

• Why loneliness has become a growing concern around the world
• The difference between loneliness, solitude, and being alone
• How grief, life transitions, and personal growth can create feelings of isolation
• The role of friendship, community, and authentic relationships in healing
• Why social media can leave us feeling more disconnected than connected
• How loneliness can become a gateway to deeper self-understanding and growth

Rather than offering quick fixes, this conversation invites us to approach loneliness with curiosity and compassion. What if loneliness is not simply something to escape, but an experience that can teach us something important about ourselves and our longing for connection?

Whether loneliness is something you are currently experiencing or something you've encountered before, this episode offers a thoughtful reminder that you are not alone in the experience of being human.

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.366)
You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all encompassing human experience.

speaker-1 (00:06.606)
This is brought to you by Yoke Media.

speaker-0 (00:25.166)
Hi. Yes, it's good to be back. Welcome back, everybody. I'm so happy to be human and to remember my humanity in this moment as we come back to chatting to you again.

speaker-1 (00:26.984)
In a moment.

speaker-1 (00:39.726)
Feels like we've had a pretty much whole podcast before actually going live on air, yeah. As usual. As usual. Shamla always have a good catch up because we were just saying before this game live that May has been Maine. Yes. It's been it's been it's been a rough ride. So really glad to be back. And for those of you obviously resigned the Western Cape, you'd have known what happened last month with the storms and stuff. and like we were speaking about it, Shamla and myself. just in terms of

speaker-0 (00:54.094)
It has been a bit of a reference.

speaker-1 (01:06.744)
You know, kind of things that have happened in the world recently and stuff, stark realization that some changes are taking place. But having said that, we're glad to be back. We are absolutely we were texting I think earlier this week and just saying like we really miss this space. This sometimes, you know, you don't always have the creative outlets, the demands of life really are pressing.

And I've told Shamilla all that's been happening. Yes. Between swine flu, hand foot and mouth. Wow. I never actually knew hand foot and mouth was a a human disease before I actually found out my children actually were diagnosed. Okay. I assumed it was an animal thing. Look, I I do sometimes think my my boys are animals. But that's a whole other discussion.

speaker-0 (01:49.486)
I think it sounds like you're talking about the Eryptilian rain, which we all have to have access to.

speaker-1 (01:56.814)
But yeah, it's it's been a it's been a pretty good time and like I said, it's it's so great to be back in studio again. and and kind of catching up before this. And today's topic is a interesting one. Probably something that we've both endured in our lifetime. maybe popping up now for various reasons, whether it might be more topical or in discussions and we'll kind of run it by each other and say, you know, Link Shawmy, what do think about this topic? But I I do think it's a relevant topic in the age we live in, Shamilla.

So yeah, without further ado, I think the topic that we're speaking about today, and I'm pretty sure that you can relate to this, is loneliness. A big one. Mm-hmm. You know, we seem to think we live in a world that we're more connected than ever. But it's so evident to me, Shamla, that we actually in a very distracted world at the moment. and it's obviously been driven by certain forces. Yeah. Kind of always being connected.

and it was so interesting before we get to the point, I just want to mention one thing I saw yesterday yesterday. So yesterday myself and my family went to grab a takeaway meal at one of the surrounding malls. What I found quite interesting was a a mom with three daughters, roughly aged, let's say young teenagers, and they were looking for a seat to sit down and obviously have their takeaway.

They wouldn't sit down until they got a seat with a plug port that they could switch their cell phones or stick their charges into that they could actually charge their phones. And it wasn't only the teenagers, it was the mother too. Mm-hmm. And the interesting tha part about that is that all of them were busy on their phones while they were sitting in close proximity to each other. Now we wonder why at times you feel lonely. Isn't that a stark reminder to say within your own environment of your family and your friends, you can feel lonely at times.

speaker-0 (03:36.718)
you

speaker-0 (03:48.226)
Well, that's quite a picture. Yeah, I mean, I have teenage daughters. I could be that mom, absolutely. But if we're eating, whether we're in public or in our home, we're not allowed to have access to our phones. That's obviously a rule instated by me as the parent, but also not only because it's about parameters with my children, but because that is a connection time.

speaker-1 (03:49.997)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (04:16.952)
For us around meals, there's lots of conversation. I have two teenage daughters who have lots to talk about. They're very chatty. But also it's about the mindfulness of being in that space and also the mindfulness of eating, undistracted. So that's really important. So that's quite a picture. And I think it all...

When you say that and you start out talking about that, guess that almost seems to be the picture of the era that

speaker-1 (04:48.824)
Of course. Yeah. I think I painted that picture purely 'cause that 'cause I knew we were doing this podcast today on the topic. Yes. So it was an observation I had while sitting there. and it wasn't a judgment, it was say, how do we unconsciously have just accepted this as the norm almost? And like you're saying, being mindful about it and being conscious about where you intend to do that in spaces and when you don't. so it was more an observation more than a judgment, I think.

speaker-0 (05:15.278)
100%. I mean, people watching is the most interesting. You know, and your greatest tool is observation. Yeah. Before you do say anything in this world, observation is really great. Do you feel lonely?

speaker-1 (05:18.03)
Always, always.

speaker-1 (05:29.536)
At times. Yeah. I have in my life, my period of life. I think I don't think there's any human being in the human existence that hasn't felt lonely or will feel lonely in their lifetime. Yeah. and some of us it's a it's a very unique experience for every individual. So even though there's a shared loneliness, it could hit anyone differently. And you will speak about it later, Shamal, in terms of temperament, personality and those type of things. But I I do think it's something that the human experience can't escape.

speaker-0 (05:59.694)
100%. It's kind of like written into gripped or I think the experience of being human and walking this earth. suppose it's, mean, of course this, you know, topic immediately makes one go to your own experience. so, yeah, it's definitely an experience I relate to as well as human being, as you said, you know, we all have these experiences. I must say though, that it's not been

the most pervasive experience for me. I've definitely had bouts of it. And then also it's almost quite specific for me. The times I felt loneliness and then also what the circumstances were. A lot of it for me has been around my spiritual journey. And then maybe also from an emotional perspective, which I think they almost intertwine.

speaker-1 (06:37.918)
Gotcha.

speaker-1 (06:47.053)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (06:56.12)
Gotcha.

speaker-0 (06:57.366)
It's quite a thing to sit with and think about and to accept at the same time that this is an experience that every human being will have. But also again, the degree to which you feel loneliness is the thing we also want to talk about, right? So much so that one of the most important things we must mention is that loneliness was declared an epidemic by the World Health Organization.

speaker-1 (07:20.066)
Hundred percent. And I think the reason why that's come about is pretty much how we've s kind of shaped the intro today. if you see what's happening in society today. But I think what has not been that obvious is the impact of it, what it has psychologically, physically on people. and I think this is where the World Health Organization obviously came into this. And I think they tackled the problem, they've done a study, Shamilla, which started in twenty twenty three.

Over a time period of three years to determine what are the long term effects of living with loneliness. because you know, one assumes that the physical aspects of your health with regards to obesity, whether you're a smoker, that potentially has more damage on people. Yet if you look at the effects of loneliness and living in isolation, maybe not belonging, what they can do to you and the the the ill effects it has on you.

speaker-0 (08:02.126)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (08:12.8)
It's quite it's quite a stark reminder to me to to realize that how important it is for social connection. Yeah. and I think it's it was really sparked by this. the commission's landmark report, released in June twenty twenty five, confirmed that social isolation and loneliness are widespread across every region and age group with health consequences that rival smoking and obesity. The other fascinating part that we spoke about before.

Roughly twenty four percent of people of low income countries report feeling lonely, twice the rate of found in high income countries. Now I just want to raise a point here, this is something we spoke about beforehand. If half the adults in America feel lonely at times, and in low income countries twenty four percent more than in first world countries or sort of more high income co countries, how many people are actually feeling lonely in a low income countries? Yep. South Africa been one of them.

speaker-0 (09:06.382)
South Africa being.

speaker-1 (09:08.576)
Yep. That is and Shamley and I spoke about it, you know, if you look at a bit of our history, and if you look at how the workforce has played out, migration in South Africa, if you look at unemployment in South Africa, how youth can feel sort of distanced from people and not understand isolated, not really understanding them, then we realise that this problem is quite big and unique in South Africa alone.

speaker-0 (09:10.69)
dark reality.

speaker-0 (09:38.042)
It is, but what's interesting about that is the, almost the, on the opposite end of that. When I think about South Africa being a very culturally rich country and diverse, as we know, and a lot of the different cultures and backgrounds that we have in South Africa is very community-orientated. So it's interesting to me that it exists, it still exists, obviously. Again, we can't evade this experience as humans.

but we are a country where again, togetherness matters, know, being in community matters, but even communities and tribes sometimes almost, I think, lose touch with what that initial value was. Yes. You know what I mean? And I think that, again, looking at the history of South Africa with apartheid and, you know, everything else that comes along with it, I would almost say like,

speaker-1 (10:11.075)
Yes.

speaker-1 (10:23.692)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (10:34.828)
You can see how psychologically community and togetherness actually helped people come through that time, cope with it, help each other, protect each other. So yes, there's a loneliness that we have to acknowledge, but also that we do have really deep roots in terms of, you know, our ability to belong to each other. And it's, guess, in a way, just being able to remember that again and reconnect.

speaker-1 (10:41.848)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (11:04.686)
to, you know, again, like what indigenous people, how they began life here. You know what I mean? And what that looks like. And human evolution and societal evolution, because this is a social issue, which is why the World Health Organization has obviously declared it an epidemic, is because it's a social issue.

speaker-1 (11:19.668)
Hundred percent.

speaker-1 (11:27.478)
I completely agree. And I think I just want to take it back, seeing that we're on this point of evolution. If you look at Abraham Maslow, if you look at that pyramid hierarchy hierarchy of needs. so obviously on the top is your basic needs are food, water, shelter. But then literally just below that is a sense of belonging. Yes. So that shows you how important a human connection and belonging actually is for you to feel psychologically safe. Yes.

and think about it, Shamli, if you think back into the times of prehistoric times and and how you lived in the Oasis, if you were alone, isolated from a group, you would be toast. You're right. So it shows you the importance of having community. Well, I never because like I said, if you weren't part of a group or community, you were literally toast.

speaker-0 (12:04.792)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (12:13.77)
Absolutely. Yeah. Toast and out there in the literal. Yeah. But so loneliness being again, an emotional experience for human beings and modern psychology recognizes loneliness is more than just an emotion. It's a complex multifaceted state with deep biological roots, psychological consequences and social implications.

speaker-1 (12:18.656)
The literal wild yeah.

speaker-0 (12:39.852)
We need to be able to explore the psychological component, obviously, of loneliness and how that impacts the person emotionally. And then as we say, like, what does that result in? How does that manifest? Does it manifest in maladaptive behavior, depression, anxiety? It could also be physical illnesses. There's Alzheimer's.

speaker-1 (13:04.052)
Alzheimer's there's also like there's cognitive reduction. Yeah. there's also things like obesity, yeah, diabetes, yeah, those are more physical. but then I mean if you look at loneliness in terms of the impact that it has, and I think we spoke about this before too, Shamila, it's actually worse than smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. and again, you know, we we don't understand the impact of this, and I think you and I had a bit of a conversation or fair about this too, Shamila.

Where I mentioned to you in the last sort of month, there's been two incidents that I've picked up in the media where there's also obviously a youth crisis and it's been recognized by the World Health Organization as well. Where they say between seventeen to twenty-one percent of people aged thirteen to twenty-nine report feeling lonely with the highest rates amongst teenagers. A study of over one million fifteen and sixteen year olds across thirty-seven countries found that school loneliness increased in thirty-six countries.

Between twenty twelve and twenty eighteen. I wonder what happened since COVID. How that has actually increased even more. Because the study is obviously prior to that. But the report that I the reading this actually reminded me of those two incidents. There was a very up and coming, right young man that took his life suicide. That happened earlier this week. A very, very sad story. I mean, like I say, I can't even imagine what his family and and and friends stuff must be going through.

Then there was a story in the Western Cape as well in Cape Town, probably about more than a month ago, could be slightly longer. A very well known celebrity. she's a T V presenter in the Afrikaans community. Her son was in grade six, took his own life. No signs they could pick up anything, appeared to be have everything together. But there's obviously a sense of people not getting me.

So you wonder on the outs on the outside we show this of like this performative thing. I'm doing what I need to do, where there's demand sometimes or what that may be from schooling or expectations. But then there's this disconnect of what I truly want people to see me or see me for who I am. And that would to me was it was it was really sad when I thought about that because what kind of society are we creating these days where we're supposedly more connected socially?

speaker-1 (15:29.824)
on social media, whatever those apps may be, but yet we are more disconnected to actually go to a human being, a friend in close proximity and say to them, Hey man, like, you know, I may be struggling with this. Like are these the things that you struggle with? You know? Having a friend sitting across you and saying something is very different than going to someone's DMs and trying to tell them something. You're right. It's very different that that you know that that human

ability and that's that energy. So yeah, Shaman, that that I find quite interesting. And and the only reason I mentioned that is because it was obviously flagged as well in this World Health Organization reports.

speaker-0 (16:10.38)
Yeah, and absolutely. mean, one of the things then clearly is the manifestation of suicide, you know, and that that's a really, really deep issue in society. And that all of these things play a role in getting a person to that place. But it's making me really reflective on

responsibility that belongs to society, right? And then also like, what is the internal mechanisms that every individual sits with? And what we need to acknowledge about that is that, you know, that's rooted in what your temperament is, your personality type, you know, how you organize yourself around stuff like self-esteem. And then also your attachment.

speaker-1 (17:00.919)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (17:05.816)
You know, those are the things that influence psychological wellbeing, but also it's like emotional agility and resilience. Those are the things that influence, you know, whether or not loneliness becomes a deep spiral that you can't come out of. And that becomes like a deep depression or even like something like as strong as apathy, you know.

Because that's one of the things that I think is also really important to distinguish between is that sometimes again, from the perspective of the kind of world we now live in, we again, we connected, but also really disconnected, we become almost like insulated and more turn towards the self and less turn towards, you know, the other when actually the other is the thing that often saves us.

You know what I mean? It's the thing that brings us out to the thing that kind of says or the person who says, again, you're not alone in this. You don't need to be alone. I can be here with you, however that is and however that shows up. I mean, some personalities are a little bit more as we know temperaments, they are temperaments that are slow to warm up. So it's more difficult to reach out, you know, that type of thing. And then for other personalities and temperaments.

there's an ease with which they socially engage. so loneliness then is less of an experience. But so all this to say that this is a subjective experience based on all of these components together. And I think attachment style is, the importance around attachment style in the discussion or least that part of the discussion is that essentially if you have a secure attachment, which is the thing we all,

kind of want to evolve into is that you believe that you are worthy and that you add value and that you are more likely to reach out or not be alone or not suffer alone in your loneliness. And then there are of course people with an anxious attachment style who can sometimes become overly

speaker-1 (19:05.634)
Yes.

speaker-0 (19:26.99)
clinging or overly attached to someone. And so therefore, you know, the experience might be that the other person isn't as responsive to this because of how they are experiencing anxiety. And then of course, the last one to mention is, there's, there's more than this, but avoidant attachment being that people who are more avoidantly attached are less likely to go towards social connection or any kind of connection. Right.

speaker-1 (19:36.056)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (19:54.764)
And I mean, this is the lifeblood of the human experience, as we know, is social connection or just connection within itself. And then of course, in addition to connection, it's a sense of belonging. Right.

speaker-1 (20:02.273)
Hundred percent.

speaker-1 (20:09.098)
Yes. and I can relate to quite a bit that you spoke about now. if I think about you know, you're speaking about if I look at my personality type and and that I I remember experiencing quite a a deep sense of like change in my life. I was in my early twenties, moving to Cape Town. I think I met you right about the same time. Yeah. obviously left my family and if I think about how loneliness impacted me at the time.

And obviously it's always easy in hindsight because I've got a good couple of years now down the line. But I look at that and I go insecure myself. I won't really say my attachment style was that secure back then. but hey, thank you. It all starts somewhere, And the awareness is the probably the best instigator there. But I I remember kind of latching onto someone, a romantic partner, probably because I felt a bit lonely, leaving my family behind.

speaker-0 (20:52.622)
We'll start somewhere

speaker-1 (21:08.64)
And finding someone that I connected with, the first person that showed real interest. and they may have a lot to do, like I mentioned, as well, with my with my past as well and and dealing with some self esteem issues at the time. But I look at that and I go, like, how many of my decisions are driven by that state at times? Wow. and and I remember thinking about that and going like when I when I was preparing for this episode and just thinking how much I've grown, but only in hindsight now.

So it's very important to have these conversations because you might be going through something currently where you can't even recognize it. And you think it's your normal. Your human experience. and I know for much of my life, Shamilla, I've tried to go the typical, stereotypical male version of gain, I can deal with this on my own. Yes. I'm not gonna reach out, I'm gonna feel shame if I do this. Yes. It is also mental health month for men in South Africa.

speaker-0 (21:47.566)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (22:07.626)
So I think it's quite important to raise this because I think a lot of men go through this. It was actually quite an issue I saw on one of the the television stations earlier this week where they spoke about this and saying that men are most likely to commit suicide. and I want to take it back slightly further. I know we jump in between, yeah. That's fine. But the psychologist Eric Erickson speaks about the psychosocial stages you need to obviously overcome to kind of have a successful life really.

speaker-0 (22:20.398)
you

speaker-1 (22:36.534)
very different from Freud's, but very much aligned to Jung in a way. And he speaks about your whole lifelong experience, not just the early influence of early childhood. Right. And he says the greatest thing for adults to overcome is literally the attachment of finding intimacy. Between the ages of twenty one and thirty nine. That is your greatest quest as as human to find intimacy. Okay. and and it can change too.

I mean how many times may you lose a partner and that might impact you being lonely as well? You could have a bit of an empty nest syndrome at home and having to, you know, deal with that. and I know Shamla, you in your own experience have also endured times of extreme loneliness in your life. I know obviously I've I've I've gone through some of that with you. There was a time that you obviously had to experience the the loss of of your your parents.

obviously first your your mom and then your your dad. Yeah. thinking back on that, Shamilla, and kind of again in hindsight now, and I can't experience that same thing with you because I haven't had to have that deep loss yet of losing a parents. But maybe just if you're willing to share with me or with the audience in terms of how that is how that has impacted you at the time and and where you kind of are at now.

speaker-0 (24:00.302)
Yeah, that's an interesting one. kind of, I feel like I, it's a question that kind of has to take me back to a place that I'm not so familiar with anymore, which is an interesting. Yeah. mean, I mean, yeah, it's a, it's, it's just, it's just a different place. Maybe that's output. It's a very different place. I would imagine that, or at least from my experience as well, that

speaker-1 (24:07.79)
Mm.

speaker-1 (24:12.642)
Okay.

speaker-1 (24:20.087)
Okay, gotcha.

speaker-0 (24:28.546)
you know, grief comes with a level of loneliness. And particularly because, you know, I have three siblings and so there were four of us experiencing this loss. And of course, like aunts and uncles and cousins and friends and all of that, they were also experiencing this loss. But there's something about all of us grieving differently. Yeah. Right. Which we know is a thing, societally.

speaker-1 (24:31.668)
Mm. Interesting.

speaker-0 (24:58.574)
There's something about that. There's also something about what the influence of your role in the family is and how that impacts your grief journey and then how that impacts loneliness. if loneliness even is something that you experience in grief, because I think it probably is something we do experience. I definitely felt that, but there's something about that too that feels really

speaker-1 (25:09.816)
Yes.

speaker-0 (25:28.526)
important to experience. And so I felt it's very strange to say, but I think even though both my parents' passings came somewhat unannounced, you know, they were diagnosed with both of them died of an illness and they were diagnosed and I think in both cases within about two and a half weeks they passed.

speaker-1 (25:43.724)
I know what you mean.

speaker-1 (25:58.05)
Wow.

speaker-0 (25:58.764)
Yeah. So it was, this is happening. with my mom's case, we knew the prognosis was that it was a terminal. Yeah. With my dad's, there was a, you know, like, could this be something where he could come back from? course he was not mean to come back from that. and so when I think about my experience of the loneliness, I think a lot about, yeah, it's, it's more the role that I played in my family. and kind of what

speaker-1 (26:01.826)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (26:28.774)
I believed what I had to hold up and kind of like roll with in that time where there isn't any time to really deeply connect to what's going on for you in the active parts of, you know, caring for them and then their passing and then the funeral and all of that. And then also what I assumed was my responsibility. So it's like, you know, it's both. But then I think

The loneliness around grief really, as we know, know, and I've said many times, really only starts to settle in like a couple of weeks after that. Because what happens is people start sort of slowly sort of thinning out. You know what I mean? In the beginning, you know, you know, this, there's lots of support, there's lots of like work. I'm, none of this I'm saying with any kind of like.

speaker-1 (27:14.924)
Yes, I got ya.

speaker-0 (27:25.848)
You know, resentment. saying this, is just naturally how we grieve as a community. Some parts of that is not good for us and other parts is really good for us. And I think in a way we almost have to be, we need to workshop how to do this with each other. That's how I think about it. And so, yeah, my loneliness came from probably feeling quite

Maybe alone in my feelings and carrying a lot of responsibility in addition to the grief and not feeling that I could count on the people closest to me necessarily. But there were also people that were definitely there. Yeah. You know, so I have the experience of both like over time what that's done, you know, also now, now how I understand grief.

speaker-1 (27:58.806)
Mm.

speaker-1 (28:06.382)
Gotcha.

speaker-0 (28:26.626)
you know, and the loneliness of that.

The point I'm trying to also bring across is that there is a loneliness that we must be.

speaker-1 (28:36.256)
Yes. Important. Yes.

speaker-0 (28:38.84)
There's a loneliness that we must be when it comes to change, when it comes to loss, when it comes to just the evolution of life. And that's, think, the most pervasive experience for me that I've been able to connect to around my own loneliness is that I must feel this. I must sense this in my body. I must allow this to change.

speaker-1 (28:48.962)
Love that.

speaker-1 (29:02.42)
Mm.

speaker-1 (29:06.859)
Gotcha.

speaker-0 (29:08.172)
And I think that what the grief around my parents and the loss around that and then where I was in relation to my family, society, work, my children and my previous relationships. It's all influenced, know, how I see that now. then, and now I guess how I metabolize loneliness. think also just to say that I, you know, we'll talk about a little bit about the difference between loneliness, being alone and then.

of course, solitude. I spend a lot of time in solitude, if I can. And so that's really helpful and it's very nurturing and very nourishing for me. But there are obviously times where there's no choice in this. You've got to walk this path. so, yeah, it's a... Sorry, there's a...

speaker-1 (29:38.604)
Sure.

speaker-1 (29:57.054)
Mm.

speaker-0 (30:05.134)
There's a quote related to what I'm talking about by Hafiz, which I really love. And it really makes me think about, you know, the question you asked me that you just took me, took me back to a different place and different time. And that's what it feels like. It feels like it was, it's such a, because of the evolution of this experience for me, it just feels like such a different time in my life. You know, we, you know, we have grown from,

speaker-1 (30:31.512)
Get it.

speaker-0 (30:35.042)
But his quote is, don't surrender your loneliness so quickly. Let it cut more deep. Let it ferment and season you as few human or even divine ingredients can. I mean, I love Hafiz super deep. But there's something about that quote that really encapsulates a lot of the experience I've had with loneliness. Again, I want to put this in the context of saying that I deal with

solitude and aloneness and loneliness in a way that I am able to turn toward it. It's not difficult for me. I do think that's because of how I've processed everything that's happened in my life. In addition to the fact that I have a temperament that does believe she has value. You know, like, and I have an esteem that does believe I have value and I have things to add to this world. And so I think my experience of that is very different.

speaker-1 (31:12.504)
Gotcha.

speaker-1 (31:33.944)
Gotcha.

speaker-0 (31:34.978)
But I know that loneliness for some and for others can be very painful. In fact, from a biological perspective, extreme periods of loneliness actually activates the pain center in the brain. So it's deeply painful. And also, I think there's a social apathy that also develops with people where they become completely switched off to reaching out.

speaker-1 (31:49.678)
Yes, time to see.

speaker-0 (32:03.63)
you almost become averse to the risk of social connection because that's how you may see it is that it's a risk to try to connect to someone.

speaker-1 (32:14.156)
And your nervous system may only recognise that.

speaker-0 (32:16.894)
Exactly. so that's so, so I do think my experience is very different. It doesn't mean that the loneliness was easier. I still had to go through what, you know, Hafiz speaks about as that fermenting process where it had to cut deep. I had to feel it, but I love that quote because it's really just, we live in a world as we've said, that's very distracted and very disconnected.

But also in a way that's very like fix that immediately. And so I think that this court is an invitation to surrender that, you know, this need to come out of the experience quickly. The need to fix it, the need to move on from it really quickly. Like, can we sit and pause with that for a moment and just allow that to permeate the moment and your being and see what happens. Maybe you won't disintegrate.

speaker-1 (33:00.31)
Mm.

speaker-1 (33:15.852)
Yes.

speaker-0 (33:17.026)
You know, that quote that when I walked into the studio, what's the best thing that could happen? Instead of what's the worst thing that could happen? That's what it makes me think of.

speaker-1 (33:26.958)
Yeah. I love that Shamina. Thank you for sharing that. You're welcome. It was it's deep, but I I love the the duality you can sit in. Understanding the purpose of why things happen and what it can bring you to. and the amount of wisdom thereafter. Yeah. That's the amazing part to me. You know, I

You know, I've got two young ones and they're under five. And you know, I speak about kind of my evolution and my own healing and therapy journey. and I'm not afraid to speak about it as a male. I think it's a wonderful thing I can actually speak about this. and I remember there was a time in my life when my firstborn was born, and this was in therapy, where there were times that I felt lonely in my relationship to my wife.

speaker-0 (34:20.782)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (34:22.198)
And it was my own insecurity at times because I saw the attention that was focused towards me now being given to someone else. And I wasn't able to understand where she was coming from.

speaker-0 (34:40.098)
I just want to say, I don't mean to interrupt. That is such a brave thing to say and acknowledge. Thank you. Thank you. Like honestly. Please go ahead.

speaker-1 (34:49.442)
So I I saw that being modeled to my son. How do I get some of that attention back? But it was the little boy in me game, like, I'm missing that attention. Mm-hmm And then I spoke to my therapist about it and I said to her, like, you know, I I s how do I actually approach my wife about it? Like that it won't seem like I'm a little cry baby about it. If you know what I mean? Absolutely. 'Cause it seems like it, it seems like

Are you crazy? You're a grown male. And you wanna go tell your wife that you feel a little bit insecure because she's directing the attention towards your son? Yeah. So I was like, Okay, I had an action plan, I was gonna do this. And the amazing part was when we sat down to speak about it, I could see what she was struggling with. She was saying, Lincoln, I have no energy left. But but this is the amazing part when you actually lean towards connection. Yes.

When you veer away from the difficulty of things, when you don't want to sit in the uncomfortableness of something for a short moment, you miss the journey ahead because you're not willing to sit in uncomfortable situations. Because from that conversation, it's taken our relationship to a deeper level. Where I have a deep understanding of of what is she doing and how we're doing this together as a family and what my role is. And it's seasonal.

speaker-0 (36:10.274)
Mm. Mm.

speaker-1 (36:14.198)
So I now understand that the the love that we have hasn't changed. It's just become different. And you know, like I I now look at my boys and we have a collective love for each other and we understand the purpose of what we want to achieve for the family.

speaker-0 (36:33.682)
That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, I know that's took you to a place of real remembrance. That's it felt like. Like you were really remembering this experience. There's so much I'd love to say about it in response, but you know, I'll try to keep it a topic, but like, thank you. That's really, yeah, it's so helpful that you say that. And again, particularly as a man, because

I just want to say that that's normal. It's normal to have, and I think again, particularly for a man experiencing the birth of children, 100%, there's so much that we deal with as women. And I think, you know, you have an incredibly expressive wife who's really able to be honest with you about her experience, which I think is probably a really containing experience in the relationship, which I love.

speaker-1 (37:05.998)
Exactly.

speaker-0 (37:33.11)
but I think that it's normal. It's normal to feel like, Hey, I'm missing the attention. You're not wrong for that. Do you know what I mean? There isn't, there's nothing wrong with that. And what that really makes me think about is, I have crossed over to becoming an audio book listener in the last week. Because I had this,

I have all these credits that I've never used. I was like, it's going to expire. Let me just get books. Also, because I have so much material I need to get through. You know, I read multiple books at a time. So now I'm listening and reading. And it's, you know, I love the experience and it's so much research and all of that. But I was I've been listening to a series by Terry Real, who is a relationship specialist called Fierce Intimacy.

speaker-1 (38:27.628)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (38:30.638)
But also touching on what you've just spoken about is that, you can, you can look at that experience as I need the attention of from my wife or things have changed and we've now transitioned to a different space in our family. And you can accept that this is part of the experience or you can shame yourself. And so it makes me think about his work because in one of the other articles as well, this person speaks about.

The shame loneliness cycle. Right? Shame says something is wrong with me. Loneliness whispers. If people really knew me, they wouldn't stay. This is a quote from one of the articles. And so basically what that speaks to is that shame narrows relational risk taking. Kind of like what we speak about earlier. So you'll silence your needs, you'll suppress.

speaker-1 (39:01.358)
Right.

speaker-0 (39:27.18)
you know, your voice, all of that kind of stuff. What it also does is, that shame can be very activating in conflict, you know, or when you feel kind of conflictual experiences. And so what happens is, is that you become so shameful that loneliness ensues. And then the loneliness creates more shame. Right? Because absolutely. And you just, you can spiral. That's the word. Right?

speaker-1 (39:46.446)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (39:56.77)
And like, how do we come out of that cycle? And so, sorry, the work of Thierry Rieu for me was really interesting because he was, and throughout the research and the readings that I did around loneliness, a couple of people mentioned what your individual experience of your self-esteem is. So your ability to, so essentially our self-esteem is our belief around what our value and our worth is. Right?

And that's in relation to being affirmed and not being affirmed. It can be in relation to what it is you achieve in the world, whatever it is, it's your ability to say, I still have worth, even if I failed. Yes. Even if I made a mistake, even if this didn't work out. Right. And so your orientation to that can either be positive or negative. Right. And we know that that's rooted in attachment and all of the stuff we mentioned before, but basically it was talking about,

speaker-1 (40:40.27)
Продолжение следует...

speaker-0 (40:56.834)
The role that that plays particularly in things like rupture, conflict, or exactly like you were naming big change in the family is that if you have healthy self-esteem, you'll believe that you have worth and value. And so you'll speak about it. You'll address it. You'll say, I'm allowed to express this. If that's less so, if there's a less of a, you know,

inclination towards a healthy self-esteem, you're probably going to shut down, right? And go into your shame.

speaker-1 (41:30.946)
Hundred percent. Same. What do Mel generally do?

speaker-0 (41:36.206)
go into themselves, right? And so, this to say that from a relational perspective, how you feel about yourself, right? Influences, how you show up in the relationship, obviously, but also particularly in those times of great upheaval, when there's great difficulty, when there's challenge, if you, again, believe that you have worth,

And these value that you add to this, you are most likely going to step up and say, let me actually deal with it. If not, then, you know, it's going to be difficult. Yeah. Our worthiness is so connected to our feelings of belonging, of connection, because that's what loneliness is. It's like extreme forms of feeling completely disconnected. I mean, you know, we've all had that example. And I think it's a really important one to talk about is that sometimes you're not lonely because

speaker-1 (42:11.777)
Hundred percent.

speaker-1 (42:26.658)
Hundred percent.

speaker-0 (42:34.648)
you're not surrounded by people. Sometimes you are lonely because you're not surrounded by the right people.

speaker-1 (42:36.246)
Of course.

speaker-1 (42:40.51)
percent. Right. I mean, let's just I mean let's speak about that even in a work context. I mean, you could have great acquaintances at work and you guys have a lot of fun and you have very light hearted conversations. and you know, from the outside look in you go like, but you know, this person, like, you know, they're so social, it's really great. But

speaker-0 (42:42.824)
Can you speak to that experience?

speaker-1 (43:05.786)
No one could really understand your your true morals and values. and I understand it's a workspace. We understand what's appropriate. But that's just an example. Like, it doesn't mean because you're surrounded by social people and there's a lot of activity going on that you feel like you been seen for who you really are at times. So you can almost feel inauthentic, like you can't really live out what you want to live out in that environment. and I mean, to take it to sort of a spiritual thing for me.

I've been into spaces before and I mean like some of you will know my spiritual journey's been a long one, still is. Yes. Ever ever ongoing. Ever ongoing. but I mean there have been certain things that I've just been very adamant about what I'm willing to sacrifice and what I'm not willing to sacrifice on going to certain spaces. Yep. and that at times has made me feel isolated. Because whether it was perceived or not or or real.

I felt I've been felt judged by it. I've been felt isolated at times by people. but because of the the spiritual seeking, I've endured that and come out better on the other side. So I'm I'm almost grateful for that I've gone through living that out and seeing that play out in like in a work context and other spaces too. But going like it's fine, I'm gonna sit with that for a while. I wanna experience that.

But then when I come on the other side and it's not a moral high ground that I'm taking now. I'm just going like through that journey, through prayer with God and speaking to him about this scenario is what I'm going through. And I mean, there's no one better to understand than that him. He was a human being to. But I've realized the depth that I've grown in my spiritual life that th there are times that you will feel like you're walking alone in your journey, especially on earth. because not everyone's gonna share the same values and ideals that you have.

And yes, we we we understand the the psychological component. We have different temperaments, personality types, but there's just the the human experience that we live walk on this earth. Yeah. That you're not gonna always find your tribe of people that you feel like you can just be yourself with. and it's also like you're saying, having discernment to distinguish that. Somewhere sometimes not oversharing with certain people that don't have your best interests at heart. And I'm sure the people listening that can relate to that. Yeah. I've myself fallen trapped to that quite recently. Yeah.

speaker-1 (45:31.616)
So again, I'm not speaking from a place and going like, I've done this better than anyone else. No, I go through this daily where times I overshare because I feel a connection at times, but it's not really a connection. it's people that might have the wrong intentions for you. So be aware of that too as well, like I say. But I think having the discernment to understand where really your tribe is and where you can share that. Like for you and I you're you're in my friendship. It's been a space where I could literally

be honest with you, share my, you know, share some of my insecurities with you, share my joyous moments with you, whatever those were, we could sit with that together, whether it be joyous or there were some sort of more sort of lower moments in our life. But having gone through those those experiences has developed a deeper friendship. Yeah. and friendship is one of the core things to really help you through loneliness.

speaker-0 (46:23.502)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

speaker-1 (46:26.446)
so yeah, I thought like you're saying, it's just a useful one to use as a as a work or different spaces really.

speaker-0 (46:32.686)
100 % and I particularly around what you're naming around friendship, know, and close connections because maybe it's not friendship for everybody. And I keep thinking about the experience of, because they are, look, these also want to mention that they are mental health struggles. Like when you think about from our observation, obviously over the years of working with individuals who have

speaker-1 (46:51.918)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (47:01.216)
often a personality disorder or particularly like really deep mental health issues. Loneliness is almost just a pervasive experience of their life. And so it's almost like this companion that's with them throughout their lives. And obviously there's a combination of stuff we need to implement in that case around

what can bring some relief to that loneliness and how we engage with that feeling. And then also, again, yeah, like how do we soothe ourselves? How do we take care of ourselves? And then what does social interaction then look like? So I think friendships is, I mean, I've seen many times, you I'm really grateful to have friends who make life so worth it. Honestly, like this experience and the fact that I

speaker-1 (47:44.11)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (47:59.736)
don't experience the feeling of loneliness as pervasively is largely also, you know, I can attribute to the kind of friendships that I have that are safe. Yeah. And that are loving places and places where I continue to grow as a human being. And people who lovingly hold you accountable, you know? And so, there are some of us again that turn toward relationship, that turn toward other, that turn toward social.

Yeah. Interaction. then there are others who, again, based on temperament, whether you're introverted or extroverted, you turn toward yourself and inward and to quiet places. And so, you know, people have different needs at different times in their life. So there may be times where you are more inward. And I mean, I've spoken also myself about how there are times where I couldn't turn toward community because I really needed to

be more inwardly focused and take care of myself and establish a kind of safety within myself. So it's a almost paradoxical experience because it's the thing we need the most, which is connection and belonging. Yet some of us are wired to not reach for that necessarily as a first instinct. But I want to say this, this is not something that it's like that forever if that's your experience.

speaker-1 (49:17.24)
Hundred percent.

speaker-0 (49:25.1)
I do think it's something you can learn. I don't think, yes, are there going to be people that's going to go, yay, social interaction, let me head towards it. Absolutely. No, that's never going to be your experience in the world, but some kind of social interaction or minimal sort of levels of it is healthy for you. Right.

And then there are other people who I think who have to learn from a relational perspective that they are worthy of the connection. So one of the books I'm listening to on Audible as well is a book called Belonging by a lady named Tokopin. And yeah, it's quite incredible. And she speaks about how she was naming an incident where

she was living with a friend of hers and you know, she said, I like the way she said, she's at some point that I reached my threshold of being able to be the fact that I was imposing on my friends, right? Even though they were a hundred percent welcoming. And also the interpretation of me being a burden on another person or being, I'm imposing on your space or that type of thing. Being.

sometimes a maladaptive sort of perception of the situation because that's your experience. obviously she speaks about the history of why that developed for her and her attachment style and her family and stuff. But basically how she, her friend actually one day said to her like, what's happening? Like what's going on? know, why you, cause she said she tried to go and do the shopping, the house, you know. And then like when they come home, she tries to disappear so she can.

You know, fear. mean, I've definitely done stuff like that too. Because like, my gosh, I don't want to impose, even though you 100 % invited Mia with your open heart. And her friend actually said something really interesting to her is that you think that you're removing yourself from me and her spouse and, you know, our communal living.

speaker-1 (51:26.434)
Gotcha.

speaker-0 (51:43.498)
is doing us good but actually you're removing my sense of belonging to you when you do that too. Yeah so this idea that it can only be as you perceive it to be I'm imposing and so but so now you remove yourself and then I lose you too. When actually I've loved having you here. I've loved having you in my home being able to cook and have a meal with you and

speaker-1 (52:01.142)
Wow.

speaker-0 (52:10.274)
This is not going to be forever. So can we enjoy this together? So again, this again also rooted in that esteem of what do you believe you're worth? What do you believe, you know, is your value that you bring? And really needing to reckon with that as an individual, as a way to address your loneliness, right? Not an antidote, but a way to address your loneliness, but also

speaker-1 (52:21.688)
Yes.

speaker-0 (52:39.768)
to give yourself a different lens to look through, which is, okay, maybe there are people who love having you around. You know, like, I miss you. Like, I love our chats. I love our, you know, the way that we laugh together. And now because of your perception and what you believe, your belief around that, you've removed that from me. So I don't get the choice either.

speaker-1 (52:48.172)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (53:03.842)
Wow, that's that's deep. That's deep. And I related that so much because, you know, one of the the sort of the side effects of depression, like you're saying, like kind of bit of a loop is loneliness. Yeah. and we have a we have a family member who has struggled with certain addictions for many years. and like you're saying now, in a way, it's almost like this person feeling the best thing for them to do was to isolate. Yeah. Right.

But they've robbed us the experience of having meaningful relationship with them. Yes. So that so like it's not a not a one way thing, it's a mutual thing. Yep. that that comes with a lot of a lot of grief as well, like you mentioned earlier because you know, you've realized like what is it gonna take for this person to understand we're always reaching out to form a bond, a connection, to make you feel belonging or belong to a system, a family system.

Yet you because of your negative bias and your frame of mind, and we understand it some of it is is diagnosed, we understand that, but there's no ability to see what the other is trying to do. Yep. and that, like you're saying, it's like it's it's it's coming to realization of that, you go like, I'm actually missing that so much. And what that does sometimes, it puts a strain on the whole family relationship.

speaker-0 (54:23.586)
Yep.

speaker-1 (54:27.874)
Because the focus is sometimes really only on that particular family member that you feel shameful sometimes for bringing up joyful discussions with that people. So again, like you're saying, it can actually rob a whole family environment at times. Yeah.

speaker-0 (54:42.286)
Absolutely. Yeah. And if the family is as, as I often say, the little communities, you know, that's obviously happening. If it's happening in the microcosm, it's happening in the macrocosm. How are we removing ourselves from certain spaces in society? Because we believe we have, you know, little value or we don't want to impose or, you know, yeah, it's just maybe you risk of us, whatever it is.

It could be again, like, you know, if you put up walls, obviously we encourage boundaries. Walls is a very different thing. You know, it's, it's often to keep things out, but it also doesn't allow anything to come in. So like, you know, there has to be a permeability, which I know is also coming back to the individual experience from a nervous system perspective, when there's enough safety within the individual and there can be enough soothing of that loneliness or

speaker-1 (55:23.266)
Hundred percent.

speaker-0 (55:41.838)
tolerance of the distress that could come with it. It does then tend to make it somewhat easier to be able to extend yourself socially. And yeah, I guess some people also need to be deeply invited to that. But I do think from a relational perspective, it can be, you can see how it creates a breakdown, right?

speaker-1 (55:48.984)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (56:05.858)
Yes.

speaker-0 (56:07.448)
how it can create a breakdown. And as we know, every relationship goes through rupture. There has to be rupture, but it's not about the rupture. It's about the repair. It's about the effort that you make afterwards to say, I don't want this to be us. I don't want this to be between us. What do I need to do? What do you need to do? But also can we connect and talk about this and be unafraid, you know, of

speaker-1 (56:13.868)
Sure.

speaker-0 (56:36.278)
I think our vulnerability, right? And not shy away from it and not have shame be this big, you know, almost bullying emotion that says shut it down. That's embarrassing. Take it away. You know, all of that stuff. I mean, that's, yeah, shame is just a, someday we'll talk a little bit more about that. But I think, yeah, from again, from a relational perspective, how we can lose each other, you know, when we don't.

speaker-1 (56:38.062)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (57:04.77)
take that step forward and we, you know, we get drawn deeper into our loneliness and we go, this is my lot. I'm always going to feel this and you know, and again, like you say, you could be in a relationship, but feel lonely. And some of those relationships, let's be very real. We actually need to leave those spaces. We really do because that kind of loneliness is not sustainable.

speaker-1 (57:20.224)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (57:31.758)
It's not psychologically safe neither.

speaker-0 (57:33.41)
No, it's not. And it's not as we know, there are many relationships that do not serve you. And you have to remove yourself from that. But there are also ones where it's worth sitting in the muck with the person and saying, Whoa, what a mess. Like, let's figure this out. You know, let's untangle. Let's let's look at what we can do differently.

speaker-1 (57:40.078)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (57:46.466)
Mm.

speaker-1 (57:55.532)
Yeah. No, I love that. There's so much in that what you just said now. Something I saw, and obviously I know we both have a love for this person, Brene Brown. Yeah. and I watched the clip where she spoke about shame, but before we get to that part about sometimes just being willing to speak about things and not blindly going into stuff and like hopefully it'll just go away and you kind of you didn't see it, because most things exist and we need to notice this thing and speak about it. She speaks about when you have two

football teams and your quarterback, both of them have the same leg injury and both of them on on sort of standings are on the same skill level. Mm-hmm. But you know that if he had to get hurt, the quarterback and he's not been defended by his front line, like which one would you pick? Okay, because it's the same. But what happens if you have the conversation in one team and you go, listen, yeah, we both have a great team, like opposition.

got a quarterback that's great but he's got a leg injury like the other one. But we've got a substitute on the bench. Worst case scenario if a front line doesn't really protect the quarterback.

And which one would you pick, Shamilla? If you had to pick a team, would you pick the one with a backup that's been had the conversation in that team to go like we realize where we might have a weakness even though we're strong? Or would you take the one that that didn't really have sight of it?

speaker-0 (59:23.394)
Now I choose the consciousness one. Right? The choice with his consciousness.

speaker-1 (59:27.918)
Now, isn't that a thing that we do in relationships at times too? I mean, isn't it times where we're so aware of situations that might not be serving us? Yeah. but we're not willing to have those hard conversations. And actually, just by prompting that conversation, it the outcome is not necessarily as bad as you perceive it to be. Exactly. Right? But it's about initiating, having the courage to initiate conversations. and especially for male, I understand that being vulnerable is hard.

speaker-0 (59:31.342)
How do we do that?

speaker-1 (59:56.632)
You know, I've had conversations during the COVID pandemic with friends of mine, very close friend of mine, that said, Link, I'm at the end of my I'm I'm not sure if you want to camera with life anymore. You know, I've got a family, I've got a young son to support, but financially I feel stretched, you know what I do? And just the mere connection of literally five minutes of listening to him, not really saying anything in response. But it's the fact that we had a sense that we knew it's a safe space as friends and he could share his deepest, most

vulnerable moments with someone else, another human that could understand where he was coming from, that moment just changed how he perceived the situation. Now how many times can we offer that out to other people, extend that? But unless you're willing to lean forward and sometimes like you're saying, having difficult conversations, getting through a, you know, what might what might seem as a stumbling block. But at times, you know, we we might be our own worst enemy.

Without even knowing it. Yeah. Consciously being aware of it.

speaker-0 (01:00:57.9)
I think we often are and our outdated beliefs, you know what mean? That's rooted in an experience we had exactly as you say, as a little kid, you know, and the reality of the work it takes to be able to acknowledge that feeling. In fact, was discussing it with a client this week. She was talking about like, but it's so real in the moment.

Like I'm so triggered and it feels so deeply overwhelming. And I said, absolutely, because you know what that feels like. So we want to honor that feeling, but we also need to root you in reality, which is you're not that 80 year old kid anymore. You are now an adult who can take care of herself. And when you look around the room, you're not alone. Right? And in her life, really is, you know, there is someone that is a safety for her.

speaker-1 (01:01:38.83)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (01:01:48.344)
Hundred percent.

speaker-0 (01:01:55.478)
And so what do we do in those moments is to acknowledge and say, who activation is happening now. Right? There's this deep feeling that I know so well that's rising up and it's going to make me want to shut down and, you know, follow the route that, that I've always taken. the challenge and the work that we do in those moments is to ground ourselves in the reality and, and, and breathe and say,

speaker-1 (01:02:21.676)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:02:23.906)
Literally to the younger you, I see you, I hear you. I'm going to take care of us. You know what I mean? Like I'm going to take care of us because both of us matter. Both of our experiences matter. And I want this to be different for us. I want a different story. I love that. I don't want the same story that we had back then. You know, again, like can we risk reaching out? Can we risk having that conversation with a friend and saying,

Gosh, this is how I feel, you know? And believe that, you know, what's the best thing that could happen?

speaker-1 (01:03:01.666)
Yeah. Well, I mean I can share a personal story. The best thing that could happen, we spoke about it on the episode of forgiveness. Mm. Me going back to that little child and saying to him, You didn't know any better, you did what you did to survive. Absolutely. And once you recognize that the relationship going forward with that individual changes. It might not be what you envisioned it to be, but it's a it it's different now going forward. and you can shape a different reality.

But 'cause the psyche doesn't know time and space. Yeah. So you'll feel like the same individual you did back then. But once you recognize like you're saying and go like, Hey man, we got it. You know, you don't have to respond in that way again. I really love that. I I I I just wanna go back to the sense of of connection and belonging, Shaman.

speaker-0 (01:03:51.254)
I wanted to, Sami, what was interesting about what you've just said on that point that you've just said is for me is the yes, it's about reaching out to others, but these moments that we're talking about where you really allow loneliness to permeate your being and you don't shun it. And you don't, you know, make it the monster and make it this really bad thing and give it a negative experiences. If you can sit through that,

very difficult burning sensation that sometimes occurs. When we are going through deep self development and our growth is happening in the moment, because those are the moments. You walk differently alongside yourself because we're talking about relationships socially, but the relationship with yourself is the one that matters too.

speaker-1 (01:04:46.414)
'Cause that's what you portray outwards. Absolutely.

speaker-0 (01:04:48.366)
Absolutely, and I mean, that's the person who shows up when you are again relating to others. And so there's something about the way that we can hold loneliness, right? Or hold ourselves in relation to loneliness that feels obviously really important for a relationship with self. How can that be different for me? If it is.

speaker-1 (01:05:11.052)
Yeah. Yeah. I wanna say a disclaimer on this, that you can live in two spaces if you're doing healing and evolution really. that you could be doing great strides in one area of your life, but still be struggling with certain aspects of other hundred percent. So it's not a like a one side I've made it now and whatever. Yeah. I mean I've had and it it literally happens in the stressful trigger moments, like you're saying. You gotta literally catch it. Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:05:26.744)
and time.

speaker-1 (01:05:37.462)
And be aware, like I'm not gonna go to my normal response or the the response that I'm used to. I'm gonna sit with it first, grind myself, whether it's breathing, whatever it does for your time. But in the last two weeks I've had moments where I've said where I've again overreacted. Yep. but again I've noticed that and going like, okay, I'm aware of it. And then when I've had to make an apology, I can make it. You're gonna have moments where you're human. Hello, you're human.

speaker-0 (01:05:57.57)
Yep.

speaker-1 (01:06:01.71)
Yes. but as long as you recognize and you journal those things and you and aware of have an awareness of it, you're making great strides.

speaker-0 (01:06:09.858)
Yeah, yeah. And strides towards, again, a sense of belonging and community. Because I do think, I mean, we've heard this everywhere that so much of the antidote to this is coming back to community. But it's the way that we come back to it, right? And the way that we engage in community that matters. It has to be safe and not safe in a way that's like...

Cause I do think when I say the word safe, of course it matters. And so much of my work is around establishing safety with my clients and then helping them establish safety within themselves, but also not in a way that's like we afraid to challenge. Right? So that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that this is about, you know, protecting precious feelings, right? Because that's the other extreme and that doesn't help people believe in their resilience.

speaker-1 (01:06:53.09)
Yes.

speaker-1 (01:07:06.37)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:07:07.18)
Right? Absolutely. believe that they can come back from a difficult experience. Again, a regulated human being is someone who can experience the vast array of the emotions and dysregulation and be able to come back and say, this is what I need now. Right? So that's really important. But I think us coming back to community and how we do that generally.

What most of us need is spaces of non-judgment. Right? I'm not saying not being held accountable because they're not the same thing. I think we need spaces where we are accountable, lovingly held accountable, but it has to be a space of non-judgment because as soon as, I mean, some of us are hyper-vigil and very attuned to judgment. And so for the person who struggles with loneliness, the moment they see that,

speaker-1 (01:07:38.613)
A two.

speaker-1 (01:07:56.162)
Mm.

speaker-0 (01:08:04.258)
We know what that does. Right? It shuts it down. And so we have to ask ourselves like, we spaces as a community of non-judgment? Again, not saying we're not allowed to tell people the truth and hold them accountable, but can we actually go, gosh, Link, I see why you would experience it like that. That must be like terrible for you that you've been sitting with that feeling for this whole week or that you feel like you can't reach out. Whatever that is.

speaker-1 (01:08:12.502)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:08:33.738)
is to be able to allow people to have the experience they have and then in collaboration, you know, help them find a solution.

speaker-1 (01:08:42.924)
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I think, you know, probably I mean I'm assuming, yeah. And I Shamli, you can concur, but I would assume that in a therapy environment that that is a really great space to develop that. So if someone wasn't feeling safe to maybe disclose or come and share with now they come into a therapist's room and let's say you create a good rapport with someone initially, you know, in the s initial stages, they start being able to open up a bit more to you as a therapist.

They now see someone else emitter to them almost that what they say actually is okay and matters. They can now take that feeling of feeling they matter and now take that in different spaces outside of that therapy room.

speaker-0 (01:09:24.718)
Absolutely. Which is why we say healing often happens in relation. In relation. Right? Because if I can mirror that back to you and you 100 % internalize that and you can carry that out, it changes everything, doesn't it?

speaker-1 (01:09:31.192)
Separate.

speaker-1 (01:09:41.857)
That. Yeah, of course it does. I mean, for some people it's even having therapy sessions on the line sheet with their dog. Yeah. I mean, there have been times in my life where, you know, particularly whether it was being busy or what maybe won't really refer to loneliness, but it can probably relate to that. Some people only have a pet as a partner and in their home environments because of life stage. You I find many times I'd sit with my golden retriever at late at night and I talk to him, he just stare at me.

But you could almost see like he's sitting there going, okay, I understand you like nodding his head. The energy. But I I think that's it's a it's a valid point. And like you're saying, you know, therapy doesn't only need to happen in a therapy space environment in a room. No. we can offer that in friendships to people and safe spaces. so there are ways where, you know, if you're feeding at times that you're not being seen or understood.

speaker-0 (01:10:14.126)
Yeah, no dogs.

speaker-1 (01:10:37.826)
that you that you hopefully have one individual in your life that you could open up and share with.

speaker-0 (01:10:44.638)
And I think again, there's no particular way that has to look. And that's really important because as much as we at times villainize digital communication and the distraction that the digital world creates, I have a friend in Nigeria who we met and connected on Twitter many years ago. And we've always stayed in touch and we have these really like deep conversations and we share.

music with each other often. And he was one of the people who has said to me, know, because of circumstances and all of that, this has really been such an awesome space. The digital world has been a space where he's found his tribe. I mean, obviously he's of my tribe, which is why we've stayed friends. But so as much as we villainize it, it definitely has been a great connector, right? But we saying

Essentially. And I think this is what all the research shows as well. And as we know, there's so much of that out there now, which is that that cannot be the only space of connection for you. need physical interaction with people because of how that impacts the brain, how that impacts the psyche, how that impacts your biology. Right. I mean, I spent time in the forest again on Thursday with Kilo and we did our biome sinking hug. And it was.

speaker-1 (01:11:57.71)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:12:12.266)
Absolutely nourishing. And so that's the other thing that I want to name is that you're never actually alone, but I want you to think about, I want you to think about things outside of your physical experience, your body. and, outside of perhaps a human connection and a conversation, because you live in a world where

you impact the environment and the environment impacts you. You are always in relation to something. So if you walk outside and you put your feet on the ground, you are relating to the earth. You are in relationship in that moment. So sometimes it has to be a subtler form of connection. One where maybe it's not words and it isn't human. Maybe it's an animal, exactly like you were saying.

speaker-1 (01:12:50.691)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:13:06.636)
Maybe it's your dog or your cat or whatever kind of pitch you have. Sometimes it's going outside and placing yourself in relation to the tree. Connecting, looking at it. It's sitting in the sun and feeling the connection of the heat on your skin. It's listening to the birds and the fact that they wake us up. You're in relation to the earth. You are connected to that. The same thing that is

present in any substance in the earth is present literally within your body. You know, if you want to do a deep dive on the chemistry of the human being, you can. But also just to say that it doesn't have to be the scary thing where it has to be about humans. Maybe you start with natural world. Maybe you start with animals. And also what can also be really helpful is serving.

speaker-1 (01:13:40.739)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (01:13:56.15)
Mm.

speaker-1 (01:14:04.418)
Very, very true.

speaker-0 (01:14:06.028)
And when I say that service could be a smile to another person. It could be actually literally volunteering. It could be going to help rescue animals, whatever that looks like for you. Whatever can bring you in a very contained way out of yourself for a moment, for an hour. And then you welcome to come back, you know.

Essentially to just acknowledge that our journey with loneliness and how we navigate this path is going to look different for all of us. Right. But some form of interaction is what I guess we are encouraging, whether that's again, just with Earth or a human.

speaker-1 (01:14:39.509)
Hundred percent.

speaker-1 (01:14:50.946)
Yeah, one I want to say that the spiritual loneliness that one can feel is an amazing journey. So often, you know, we we look at people that go through spiritual journeys and sometimes they carry a different aura about them. I don't know if you've ever experienced people, Shamilla, I'm well I'm sitting across someone that I love But they just carry themselves differently. Yeah. and it's so

speaker-0 (01:15:10.638)
It's about the same.

speaker-1 (01:15:17.984)
encouraging to see when people are called to a purpose other than just like what you see in reality.

speaker-0 (01:15:24.834)
Yeah, I absolutely sense that and feel that. And yeah, you say that. And again, I think that's how you engage with this experience that matters. How you engage with this very real experience of loneliness, which is, it has to, it has to occur at some point on your journey and through your evolution and all of that. And so much growth also comes from how you

embrace it, you know. And it's not, again, we're not saying this is something you be chronically, you know, it is just the odd times where the quiet is needed. And I know that because loneliness is something that you don't often have, can often not have a choice in. Whereas if you're choosing something like solitude or to be alone, these are choice element there.

speaker-1 (01:15:55.725)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (01:16:16.952)
Hundred percent.

speaker-0 (01:16:24.062)
And so how we then experience that is very, different. Yeah. And I think, again, there's so much nuance to this conversation. And again, we see how one thing leads into another. But I guess the question for me that I do come back to is, you know, what is our responsibility as a community?

And as a people and as a society towards people who struggle with us a little bit more than others. Maybe you need to be the invitation. That's you know, and when I say that, I mean, an energy of an invitation, which is I'm here. I'm happy to chat to you, you know, and then on the individual level, perhaps you need to challenge yourself a little bit more. Stretch. That's part of life.

speaker-1 (01:16:57.186)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (01:17:03.694)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (01:17:19.83)
Mm.

speaker-0 (01:17:21.934)
that's the paradox. You want to be flexible? You got to strip. Yeah. So it's going to hurt a little bit or it's going to be uncomfortable. You know, you'll feel like you embarrass yourself or you feel awkward, know, but that's all very human. And I know that there's still so much work for us to do around accepting that that's very human qualities. and I, I mean, as I say that, I think about people who don't experience the world, neuro typically people who are neurodivergent.

speaker-1 (01:17:26.334)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:17:51.98)
You know, this is for them a very different experience to the loneliness of that. But it's so interesting to me because if you exist as you do with all of your stuff, all of your quirks, someone else does too. I promise you that there's someone else out there. It's like, you know, I had a client say to me last night, you know, think you just gotten divorced.

speaker-1 (01:17:55.606)
A hundred percent.

speaker-0 (01:18:20.238)
I don't think I could, I don't think I could like, you know what I'm realizing, I'm realizing like I really want to be with someone who accepts me for me. Oh yeah, I love that you got to that point where you can allow yourself to say that you are worthy of something where someone can accept you fully in all of you. And he goes, yeah, but like, where am I going to find that? I was like, if you exist, you or she exists. I promise you that, you know what I mean? And so, so there is also,

There's a hopeful component to human connection.

speaker-1 (01:18:53.09)
Yeah. I love it. I think it just reflects Shamla when you're saying when we live kind of individually and thinking that no other experiences, the human experience. Yes. then we we tend to shape a narrative and we we live it out in a way. Yep. so I think when you realise that the universal experience is a ray of emotions are experienced by all of us. Yes. and I think, you know, the the wonderful thing, I always take it back to the the whole spiritual part.

You know, Jesus walked this earth as a human, so he completely understands the human experience too that we've had, all of us. and all the emotions that we're feeling, he's experienced every single one of them. You know, in his in his thirty-three years that he was walking this earth. But I think the most amazing part is that he experienced deep loneliness in his journey on earth. You know, he walks through desert forty days, been tempted before he's

Real calling of ministry, is tempted by Satan. Yes. Can you imagine that? Completely in isolation, being tempted. and then the ultimate one in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he was sacrificed. You know, there's part where he said, Lord, why do you forsake me? Even asked the father. You know, can you imagine being divine but being born and even your brothers and sisters not understanding what it lives

To be living on this earth without any sin. That lonely experience or not having a universal experience with anyone else at that time, how lonely that journey must have been. So if we think that that you know that that God's journey was was not a lonely one, then we just have to look at those two major incidents in his life to realize that he has he has felt everything that you feel in the experience of loneliness. and that there's a there's a deep sense of

really giving back to others in the loneliness too that he lived, in his journey of of studying and learning and the the sermons you'd have, like, you know, and that might look different in modern society. Sometimes that's a smile to someone like you just mentioned now, Shamilla. The only version of God they may see is what you live out as a person, 'cause God sends people. Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:21:10.606)
Yeah, absolutely. I guess I'm thinking about as you speak about that, again, that relational, like you're always in relation to something that I was speaking about early on. Sometimes the journey you go on in the depth that it takes you to in life is because you are supposed to discover a relationship with a higher being, with God. It's supposed to deepen that relationship. You know, I mean, I've certainly felt that.

speaker-1 (01:21:34.563)
Yes.

speaker-0 (01:21:40.11)
in my experience and being able to go, okay, it's actually about my relationship to my higher power, to God. And then what that then creates in terms of the holding that I need in those moments of loneliness, when it's really tough and no one else can understand because they're not supposed to. They're not supposed to. It's not between you and them.

speaker-1 (01:21:47.382)
I love that.

speaker-1 (01:22:00.994)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (01:22:05.302)
Or social media.

speaker-0 (01:22:06.862)
Exactly. You don't need a ring light and a microphone, but you know what I mean? It's quite personal. Of course it's personal. And okay. It's okay for some things to be just between you and higher power or whatever it is that you believe in and whatever you feel orientated towards, maybe put it that way, is that that's going to be very private.

That's just going to be for you. That's always just going to live in your consciousness. And like, you know, some of us, have microphones and a podcast. We'll come on here and share some of that, but we won't share all of it either. And that that's also important because there's something that I want to also just, you know, connect to loneliness, which is that sometimes when we are exposing ourselves or we are in groups,

and we're talking about really deep stuff, or we're talking about things that are quite vulnerable for us, that actually reinforces loneliness. Because perhaps you're not aware that that's not the place you should be taking it. So the places we take this can also either alleviate the loneliness, or it can reinforce it, which obviously then ties to often can be a belief around you see why I shouldn't trust people. But

The discernment we all need, like that's of no question in this time that we're in. You have to be discerning about where you take those, you know, those vulnerabilities or those conversations or the debates or questions that you have. We have to be discerning about that because we don't want that to enforce this, I am alone. You know, so the space is...

speaker-1 (01:23:54.476)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

speaker-0 (01:23:57.538)
you take that and the people you take it to is also of consequence.

speaker-1 (01:24:01.856)
I I mean that's such a useful analogy, Shaman, because I found with kind of the the journey of evolution and healing, whatever you want to call it, yeah and your your self work or your self healing, I found that people that I used to be able to communicate and have a level of friendship with I don't find the same meaning anymore. Because whether it's as been that that they have changed or more specifically that I have changed in my values in what I

I feel I, you know, want to either be privy to or party of in conversations no longer interests me. and that in some ways has isolated me, but for the better. For the better. That's the that's the important part. So yes, initially it might feel like you're excluded, but we're not just about the year and the now. Yeah. We we're looking for the future as well. Like what is it that I'm wanting to become? Yes. So it's that evolution.

speaker-0 (01:24:42.389)
Right.

speaker-1 (01:24:58.016)
So it's important for me to actually say this because I've realized in times like yes, th there are times that I have felt a bit lonely. Mm-hmm because I go like it's what I know, what I'm used to. But for order for me to get to that end goal, I certain things I need to leave behind now. Mm-hmm. And that's important to to mention as well.

speaker-0 (01:25:16.014)
100%. Wow, that's been quite the discussion.

speaker-1 (01:25:20.69)
Yeah, quite a discussion. I think just a few things I think I'd like to say. Just on a on a very physical level, to mention that the World Health Organization did recognise that loneliness has negative effects in terms of, you know, whether it's Alzheimer's, obesity, the same as like smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. So you can see that biologically it has a bad component attached to it. A real impact.

speaker-0 (01:25:48.461)
real impact.

speaker-1 (01:25:50.066)
And I think we must notice that. Also on a psychological level, I think Shamla you highlighted a a lot of very good points with regards to how it can kind of cause a loop with a lot of other sort of mental health diseases in a way. and I think it's important to note that. But to realise that there is hope. Yes. There is definitely hope that you are not living this alone. it's part of your human journey. we'll not escape it. and I'm not saying that as a doom.

Look forward to the evolution of what you can possibly hold and become thereafter.

speaker-0 (01:26:26.006)
Your loneliness may actually be the gateway to the depth you're looking for in your life or to the change. Again, how you encounter that matters, how you decide to relate to this experience of loneliness. yeah, again, we're not the people who's going to sit here.

do these five things and you'll feel that's not what we're talking about. You can Google that. But I think, again, just to remind everybody that how we engage with this differs from person to person. And so maybe next time someone says, I feel quite lonely, just be willing to understand the version of it. Just say like, so what do mean by lonely?

speaker-1 (01:27:20.448)
Yes.

speaker-1 (01:27:25.144)
I love what you said Adisham, but non judgmental. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Create a safe space for for your tribe or people. Yeah. That they can actually really just sort of vocalize whatever they're feeling. Yeah.

speaker-0 (01:27:37.742)
Absolutely. So from another conversation around the very deep, you know, unending and very colorful and tumultuous experience of the human. Yeah. Yeah. We hope that you can take something from this conversation. And just to say again, thank you for listening and we value your feedback and we value

you engaging with us and allowing us to be in your ear.

speaker-1 (01:28:12.13)
Yeah, I agree. And and I just want to say as well, like, you know, for anyone things that we stand in or kind of vocalizing as experts, I experience exactly the same as the experience. so this is a journey. We're doing this journey alongside you, not giving it to you in a way. and I also want to say, and I've shared the shamula, a lot of the work and research we do is part of my own healing too, in conjunction with my own healing. so if you if you see it like that.

And you see like it create can create a bit of an opening for you, really see it as just coming along the journey with us in our own human experience. Yeah. But for myself, Lincoln.

speaker-0 (01:28:51.938)
For me Shamila, stay human.

speaker-1 (01:28:54.466)
Well that was the human story brought to you by Yoked Media. Stay tuned for more on the Human Story.