Coffee with Gays™: Every Sip Is A Story

🎙️ Before It Was Safe: The Lives That Made Pride Possible | Ep 20

• Blaine LaBron, Ryan Hines, and Reed Rousseau

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New episodes every Thursday | Hosted by Blaine & Reed

This episode kicks off our Pride Month arc with a truth bomb:
Pride didn’t start with rainbow merch—it started with people who had to survive silence.

We’re bringing you the raw, redemptive story of Matt, a man outed after 35 years of marriage to a woman. His journey cracks open a larger conversation about how far we’ve come—and how far we still have to go.

We also dive into the hidden lives of queer Hollywood icons: Cary Grant, Rock Hudson, Katharine Hepburn—and the man who claimed to know all their secrets, Scotty Bowers.

🎥 Want more? We fully unpack the Scotty Bowers documentary, and you can stream it free on Tubi. It’s messy, revealing, and morally complicated—but worth watching if you care about how queer history has been told (and sold).

And yes—the pod is officially relaunching. New tone. New vibe. Still brunch-table realness.

⏱️ Chapter Breakdown:

00:00 — Welcome to Pride Month + Personal Reflections
01:13 — Matt’s Story: Outed After 35 Years
03:39 — Relaunching Coffee with Gays
04:42 — Old Hollywood and LGBTQ Representation
07:44 — Cary Grant & Randolph Scott’s Complex Relationship
10:46 — Scotty Bowers and the Secrets of Tinseltown
13:46 — The Moral Dilemma of Outing the Dead
16:45 — Rock Hudson, AIDS, and America’s Wake-Up Call
25:05 — Names, Identity, and Cultural Framing
27:00 — The Legacy of Rock Hudson and Representation
28:31 — Katharine Hepburn’s Queer Subtext
33:19 — Monogamy vs. Non-Monogamy in Today’s Gay World
40:32 — How Safe Are We Really?
45:09 — LGBTQ Activism: Then vs. Now
50:22 — Why Pride Still Matters

✨ In This Episode:

  • The danger and dignity in Matt’s late-in-life coming out
  • The moral mess of outing celebrities after death
  • The dark underbelly of Old Hollywood’s golden age
  • Scotty Bowers: whistleblower or opportunist?
  • Pride vs. performance—where do we stand today?

🧠 Why It Matters:

Not every hero was a protester. Some were lovers who died without being seen. Some made art. Some just survived. And some—like Matt—are still figuring it out.

This episode is for them. And for everyone still walking the line between privacy and pride.

🎧 Listen if you’ve ever:

  • Felt conflicted about visibility
  • Wondered who really "made Pride possible"
  • Wanted to scream during a bad Grindr date

📲 Follow @coffeewithgays, hit that subscribe button, and tell us in the comments:


 Who made your Pride possible?

Let me know if you want this adapted for Buzzsprout preview text or shortened for

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Speaker 1:

he said let me have it, there's more. He's the guy's been communicating with the kids and everybody else. You know, I literally I'm in the passenger seat while she's driving. I literally like just put my head in my hands and looked up and said my life is over. That's what I said.

Speaker 2:

Wow. So that is from our friend Matt, and we recorded that actually a year ago and he was in the closet for 35 years basically cruising gay bars, parks, like the things that you always hear about, that like you've never met a person like this. And I met him here in Dallas and we decided to interview him with Coffee with Gays. He was outed just an incredible story. It was very painful. So episode one is about his outing and then episode two is kind of like after he was outed and like his life afterwards.

Speaker 2:

It's really a story of redemption and we thought it would be really good for Pride but we couldn't launch it last year for so many reasons. So this year we're launching it for Pride and I just wanted to open with that clip because I think we forget that we've come so far and there were so many people that have been in the closet and just didn't really have the ability to come out and be free. So that's why I wanted to introduce today's episode of Coffee with Gaze. Before it was safe, looking back on the lives that made pride possible. So welcome to Coffee with Gaze.

Speaker 5:

I'm Blaine and I'm Reid Didn't want to interrupt you, but wow, the kids. That blows my mind, I mean. So just to tell the audience. I was not a part of that episode. I was not recorded with that episode. I have not seen that episode or watched that episode, but, um, I had no idea that this, this guy that he was seeing or dating, or he thought he was seeing, went so far as to contact his children.

Speaker 2:

Oh my goodness it's actually not dating. It was just a random person on a business trip was this pre pre-facial recognition or security on your iPhone?

Speaker 5:

I don't understand.

Speaker 2:

People can get your passcode, you know. So you know, yeah, it's that kind of story. Yeah, he was on a business trip here in Dallas, so it was very, very shocking what happened. Obviously, you don't have your phone, you can't contact your family, but somebody else was Exactly Extorted money. I mean, it was a whole thing. So a lot can happen in 12 hours without your phone, and that's the story.

Speaker 5:

Okay, so the guy stole his phone.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, stole his phone. He had to make it back to his hotel, make it back to his home in New Jersey.

Speaker 5:

phone he had to make it back to his hotel, make it back to his home in new jersey, all without a phone. Was he drugged? Was he date? Like what did he get? Like roofied? We don't know, but we assume maybe potentially he was very oh my gosh, I I bet that'll make all y'all think twice about grinder and or or any. Yeah, just think twice.

Speaker 2:

He was, he's saying at the he was just out at the bar. He was just out at the bar, he met some random person and that's what happened. So his world really did unravel. It was painful what happened, but I love part two because, like I said, it's really a redemption story and kind of like his life after all that and his perspective after. So there's some really good parts of it.

Speaker 5:

Well, I'm looking forward to watching, listening. I do appreciate that clip of Matt's episode because I had no idea. I mean, I know you guys recorded it a year ago, but thank you for showing me a little clip of that because I honestly had no idea.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's really amazing. So part one drops June 12th and then part two drops the next week, on june 19th okay, all for pride, all right, I get it now.

Speaker 5:

Just to say I'm not really a pride person, to put that out there, but I will support blaine in this journey look, I'm not a pride person either, and it's really becoming about pride capitalism and I'm so freaking over it.

Speaker 2:

but we need to bring our pride back and just kind of remember, like, what it's all about, don't you think?

Speaker 5:

I support your cause.

Speaker 2:

Well, look, I mean, again, I really think pride was about the people that came before us and the reason we're allowed to be gay and free in this like great country that we live in today, and that's kind of like what I think it should be about and celebrate it. So that's what today's episode is about. Again, like I was kind of inspired by this documentary and we'll get into it in a little bit, but I really wanted to kind of first talk about Coffee with Gays. We're kind of like relaunching the podcast. It's June 5th and we are bringing it back. Just you and me today.

Speaker 5:

Just us two, yes, me and Blaine. Ryan will be back, though. Ryan, you're missed.

Speaker 2:

I'm staring at your empty he's been a little busy Massage school and a whole bunch of other things but trips massage school.

Speaker 5:

The AIDS life cycle. Ryan, I hope you're doing well on the bike ride.

Speaker 2:

Very last AIDS life cycle ever, ever. So we're rooting for him, yes, very excited for him. But, um, we have a whole new format. As you can see, I'm here at a desk, which I'm really excited. Reed will have a desk, probably next time as well. I'm excited about that. We have a lineup exactly, we have a whole lineup of guests. I'm really excited. We both just had readings with valentina like dallas is most like I gotta get to the rich and famous and both of our readings were like four hours. So we'll be really interested to see how our interview with her goes, because she's really excited to do it. I mean, we talked a lot about like things like I don't know the birth chart of America and like how it like aligns with, like things like you know, just like where we are in. I don't know the politics of today and how it aligned with the French revolution. She's a fascinating person.

Speaker 5:

I'm really excited for that one. Did I mention that I brought up Baba Venga to Valentina and what the predictions are Cause? Did you hear how people were? We can get into this, but how people were stopping their trips to Japan. They were canceling their trips to Japan for the month of July because of what Baba Venga had predicted.

Speaker 2:

No, who's Baba Venga? Is it that weird alien person?

Speaker 5:

She's not an alien person. She was an old lady who made predictions, and her predictions were accurate. She predicted all the way up through the end of the world in 5000.

Speaker 2:

Well, maybe I should go to Japan instead of Spain next week.

Speaker 5:

No, July. July is when the tsunami is like some sort of major event, but when you're talking about the world and you know Essentially, you're predicting this now, so if it happens, we'll do a podcast on it and we'll bring this clip back I mean sure sure, yeah, great, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So we'll have her on, we'll have a few other people and, um, we'll put your phone on silent. Yeah, my phone on silent. Um, you know we also have a full new look, new art, everything. You can go check out our link tree and you know, a whole new perspective. We want to just really bring back something cool and fun. Like again, we're not a safe space. That's the idea, right, we're not a safe space. No, I feel like a lot of these gay podcasts are all like these, like safe space, talking about pronouns and stuff like that. We want to just talk about real topics. That's the whole point of coffee with gays, right?

Speaker 5:

well, I mean we are millennials, so we are a different generation technically than these other gays that are out there. I mean, I'll be 40 this year, blaine oh no, not 40.

Speaker 2:

I've been 40 for a year, actually. Yeah, now I'm 41. How has 40 been for you so far?

Speaker 5:

I don't turn 40 till August 1st and I'm holding on to 39, baby, I'm holding on to 39. But we are a different generation than those and I don't think our views or opinions should be disregarded. I don't think we need to be forced to change our views and beliefs. We made it to 40 or 39 pretty well.

Speaker 2:

Well, I had these little cards printed off that we can give out to people. You know, little Coffee with Gaze cards. And then I said this podcast might piss you off. Good, I don't know, I thought it was a good tagline to kind of, like, you know, relaunch the Good. I don't know, I thought it was a good tagline to kind of, like, you know, relaunch the pod. So we will see.

Speaker 5:

Our intention is not to piss you off, but if we get a reaction, by all means I mean get pissed off, whatever.

Speaker 2:

Look, we're trying to bring brunch table energy to this thing. You know where we get arguments and fight. You never make it to brunch, so you wouldn't actually know how this works.

Speaker 5:

That's probably why I don't know what brunch table energy is you?

Speaker 2:

don't, it's true, it would be nice if you actually made it someday.

Speaker 5:

I'll try to carve out some time in my schedule.

Speaker 2:

It would be really nice if you did, really really nice. So I got really inspired by this documentary. I found really really nice. So I got really inspired by this documentary. I found Obviously what I wanted to talk about today was old celebrities that were gay, and so I started researching it and I was like, okay, we know about some of these old celebrities and I was like what is a documentary or something that you and I could watch and then talk about?

Speaker 2:

And then I stumbled on this documentary, scotty Bauer and the Secret History of Hollywood and it was just so fascinating because it really encapsulated pretty much like every single one of the old celebrities that was like in the closet, so like Cary Grant, rock Hudson, katharine Hepburn, and it was just fascinating to me. So this guy basically was like the hustler of Hollywood and he was like in World War II, in a whole bunch of different wars, and after he got out of the Marines he was like at a gas station and then he was one day just filling up a guy's tank and the guy asked him to go swimming at the pool and then one thing led to another and then he hooks up with him and all of a sudden he's like a hustler one call after the other and then he's just like the whole gas station has like 30 Marines there and he's like fulfilling all these guys' fantasies in Hollywood. Absolutely fascinating, I mean. What did you think about it? Let's just kick it off, did?

Speaker 5:

he work it Okay. So, or just to say listeners, blaine did ask that I watch this documentary as well, which it was an interesting documentary, come to find out. Netflix and Ryanphy actually made a spin-off show about it, called secret life of hollywood. Is that what it was called, I think so yeah, the spin-off show. Yeah, um it was. I thought I found it interesting. Uh, did he own the gas station like you know?

Speaker 2:

I know no, he just was working there. He's's poor, remember. I mean, he didn't end up being poor in the end, but he was.

Speaker 5:

He had his military you know stipend.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he didn't own the gas station, he just went there and help wanted. You know, just was like pumping gas.

Speaker 5:

Just taking pump and dumps, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, and then he started pumping and dumping.

Speaker 5:

Oh God, I was a bad joke. Well, yeah, I found it. I found it informative. It's a. It's both a kind of a sweet and cute in certain clips of the of the docu-series. And then it gets like, just when you think you're like, oh wow, look at that cute carrie grant and randolph picture, then it flips to a bunch of naked naked dudes in the 40s walking down a boardwalk.

Speaker 2:

I mean that's what, like I think really like opened my eyes is like we really don't understand how people like really lived in the shadows back then. Um, and I think what was so cool about the documentaries is almost like this super glamorous moment of like old ho, but then also, um, it was not glamorous and also very like dark to me and sad. Like Cary Grant and his boyfriend, just like they had to live this like really dark, sad life where they were in love and they lived together. But like here they are like literally married and they have to hide it and live together while married like that's so bizarre to me, right while married to women yeah, married to women.

Speaker 5:

Yes, um, I mean, but they from the docu-series, they, they owned, they had a home together, they had their own house. Yeah, they had two houses together. I mean, as as in the closet as they were, they were living their lives. You know, I don't know, I. So I've I thought long and hard about that and I'm like, yes, it was difficult and there were struggles to be be had, for sure for the gay community, but maybe Cary Grant and Randolph actually had it pretty well. I mean, cary Grant married five different women or divorced five different women.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Now that I'm thinking about it, I mean yeah, he was on and off, that one for sure.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, man could pull him, man could pull him.

Speaker 2:

I think the interesting thing for me is there was this real big discussion around like did scotty betray these people because he waited? This documentary takes place at his 90th birthday um at chateau marmont which was what year I meant to ask that 2017. He's dead now. He died in 2019. But it so it takes place at his 90th birthday, and he waited to write his book until everybody that he kind of outed was was fished yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so there was this huge controversy about, like you, did he really out them, you know, and they had family some of them and like, was this a terrible thing? So you know, one of the clips you know I went ahead and pulled was like this interaction at you know, his book signing with someone like, was this a really bad thing that he did? Like you know the moral aspect of it, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about this. Let's watch.

Speaker 8:

All those people? Yeah, don't you think you misled their trust by writing a tell-all book? A lot of people at the time knew who these people were and what they were, so it's not a secret really. It may be a secret that some square that lives in Illinois, but people who lived in Hollywood, they knew these people, I do love how he used the term square.

Speaker 5:

I mean like they had a grandkid, the grandkid New New England.

Speaker 8:

I do love how he used the term square. I mean like they had a grandkid. The grandkid remembers all my grandfathers was gay or whatever like that. What's wrong with being gay, so? But thanks anyhow. Okay, that's just my movie. No, I can see it, thank you. I did the book just to show people that people are still people, that somebody's squares think oh my god, you're weird, you're different. You know, you need like. Ladies are saying to me just what are you?

Speaker 2:

I said I'm everything I'm everything, he is everything. I'll tell you that I'm obsessed with scotty bauer.

Speaker 5:

This guy is like something else I want to use, I want to google what the term square meant back then. Well, I mean, I know. Well, I think it means the same thing it does today.

Speaker 2:

Right, like just like I want to use, I want to Google what the term square meant back then. Well, I mean, I know. Well, I think it means the same thing it does today. Right, like, just like I don't know someone who's boring Judgy douche. Definitely a judge. It would be a Karen, for sure. Oh yeah, I guess.

Speaker 5:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's definitely what. What a square is Okay, but yeah, I don't know. I mean I I would struggle with that too. I think you know, the interesting thing that I really took from this is that he had such an interesting view on sex, like he didn't judge anybody for for being gay or any of this. You know, like he it didn't think of him any differently even back then, and like he said like you know, everybody knew, yeah, I mean everyone. Well, again, I feel like you're judging, you definitely have a judgmental thing. Go go.

Speaker 5:

Just don't call me Karen. He's got a point, Like the guy that said, hey, what about the families of the deceased that were in the closet? He's got a point. It is I don't know. I don't know them personally and I'm sure they're not hurting financially, but you know, whatever, I don't think it's ruining the deceased's reputation.

Speaker 2:

I mean, let's be honest, they already, like all these people, knew before this book.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, I mean, my mom told me about Rock Hudson, for example, and I had no idea who the hell he was. I was like, okay.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I'm going to get into Rock. He was so hot, my God. Speaking of hot, let's talk about my favorite in this whole thing. Actually, that's really who I kind of started researching was Cary Grant and Randolph Scott. Who I kind of started researching was Cary Grant and Randolph Scott. I mean the couple of the time. I mean these two were just freaking gorgeous. I mean, if I was like a little young gay boy back in the 40s, I would have been watching these movies nonstop.

Speaker 8:

I have a book on everything here Grant Escott, cary Grant. What was so funny is they live right behind the Chateau Marmont there and they lived at the beach too. They lived right at Santa Monica Beach and they lived together. Of course people said they're roommates Okay, we're roommates. Of course people say they're roommates Okay, we're roommates. I mean, we're lovers, we're roommates too.

Speaker 6:

Well.

Speaker 4:

I feel it's about time for a dip. Oh man, is that Johnny Wise Mola?

Speaker 9:

No, I wish it were.

Speaker 8:

Back in those days, people knew they were lovers and together. Then, all of a sudden, as years ago, why did it come out? How dare you suck that way? But I'm not talking about any set of great guys. You know Both of them.

Speaker 2:

Look at this, doing those rings.

Speaker 5:

This movie was.

Speaker 8:

That movie was clearly way ahead of its time and both of them. I've also brought another buddy for them where there were four of us, two and three.

Speaker 2:

I love how the title of that article was the Bachelors at Home.

Speaker 8:

Before he became an actor, a known actor, Cary.

Speaker 10:

Grant was living with.

Speaker 8:

Ori Kelly in New York, who was a mad queen bachelors at home have here for a year and a half together. Don't be judgy. And you get Randall Scott and left Ori dropped him like a hot potato. I'm sorry, but Randall Scott Because he wanted to steer clear for fear they might think he's gay if he's with someone who's known to be gay.

Speaker 5:

So I feel whenever I'm around you. Blaine, just kidding.

Speaker 2:

I mean wait what.

Speaker 5:

He said he was afraid to be around Ori Kelly because he didn't want to be perceived as gay. So that's never mind.

Speaker 2:

Oh my God are you calling me Ori Kelly?

Speaker 5:

I'm on a public podcast with you. Do you think I'm that embarrassed to be around you?

Speaker 2:

Are you calling me a flaming queen? That's so rude.

Speaker 5:

Glass slipper fits Cinderella.

Speaker 2:

Wow, I guess I should wear my glass slippers next time. But to your point, carrie grant was married five times during this period, okay, and then scott was married twice. I had to get these down, okay. And like during the same time, during these like basically four-year periods, they owned a home called bachelor hall and a beach mansion and they lived together while they were both married to these women I mean again, I, yeah, I go back to that move, that movie clip that you, that they show in the docu documentary or whatever.

Speaker 5:

That movie was obviously, or which was portraying carrie grant to be getting turned on by randolph, is it like, is he not? It's pretty obvious, right yeah, for sure that movie had to have been way ahead of its time.

Speaker 2:

If that's the case, like I mean people just like ignored it. And then you know what. What is rumored to be happened is the studios actually worked overtime to like conceal anything about it. They shut down rumors and then there's a story that a photographer actually captured an intimate moment between the two of them, and then the studios actually had the negatives destroyed to protect their image and they went out and took more pictures.

Speaker 5:

Is that what up?

Speaker 2:

no, what do you mean? No, they destroyed the evidence and they didn't get anything else. I mean, this isn't like tmz back in the day, like it's hard to get photos, it's not like right, you know but it looks like they took more with the cute pictures that were on the documentary. No, but like clearly an intimate moment, like a kiss or more, like not just like them, just canoodling, I mean canoodling is, I guess bad enough, but like you know, we can infer that.

Speaker 5:

But you know, that's just canoodling, Canoodling.

Speaker 2:

You know, you can kind of explain away canoodling.

Speaker 5:

but no, I can't.

Speaker 2:

Do you know what canoodling is?

Speaker 5:

I actually don't, but I really want to Google it right now. Or canoodle? I don't know what that means.

Speaker 2:

I love canoodling. Canoodling is like what they were doing at the horse races, where they're just like kind of cuddling together. You know, okay, like cozying up to each other. Is that what you mean? Yeah, cozying up to each other, exactly that's canoodling.

Speaker 5:

Let's see what does canoodling mean while you're moving on favorite gay from the 50s?

Speaker 2:

well, I guess, yeah, the 40s, I guess in 50s, which would be rock hudson, who, by the way, I mean hoddie mccall, I mean can I just tell you I this is very true when going looking at people during this day and age, they were beautiful, like there's something to be said about people like pre fifties that just were like naturally gorgeous. Like I don't, I just am like so shocked by it.

Speaker 5:

I mean you're referring to a time when most were in the military or in the Navy, so they were all clean shaven, clean cut, you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, but they, I mean they just were in the navy, so they were all clean, shaven, clean, cut, you know, yeah, yeah, but they, I mean they just had like naturally beautiful bodies, and so I do think there is something behind our food.

Speaker 5:

It has to be that too what are you saying about my body?

Speaker 2:

I'm clean I think you're. Everybody says that you're like super hot and it's so great that you're on the pod because you're the new cute one and that's why we have you in adam's seat with the bulge. So no, I think everyone eternally single go ahead single and for sale very expensive.

Speaker 7:

Cheap but expensive let's talk rock hudson you know, in hollywood everyone knew that rock hudson was gay, rock hudson selected as the most popular film actor of the year.

Speaker 9:

This is the second year in a row that Mr Hudson has been taken by modern screen as most popular actor.

Speaker 7:

But his sexuality came really up when Life and Action had done a cover story on him. It said that he was approaching 30 years old and it was about time for him to get married. And if he didn't get married, he needed to tell his fans why. And like a month or two later he married his agent's secretary, phyllis Gates.

Speaker 8:

Phyllis- essentially has a spot name. Phyllis was gay. Phyllis was gay and nothing happened.

Speaker 7:

It became kind of an open job in Hollywood. Everyone kind of knew that this was an arranged marriage, but it was very important to sell that myth.

Speaker 11:

It was about reflecting back a very traditional middle class, middle America viewpoint. The truth of that was something very, very different.

Speaker 5:

He kind of has a James Dean. Look to him. Him, doesn't he?

Speaker 2:

he does yeah, he really does, isn't phyllis like such a lesbian name?

Speaker 5:

I'm not surprised she's a lesbian we shouldn't be judging the name phyllis oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2:

I'm sorry to any phyllises out there, but uh, you know, I just say things like this. You know I'm I find it interesting that, um, they arranged a marriage with a lesbian what I mean, that's that that's extremely efficient if you think about it, I mean it is really efficient. I just find that just fascinating that they actually found um found a lesbian. By the way, I have a very um really interesting little tidbit piece of trivia. Do you know rock hudson's um original name?

Speaker 2:

I'm waiting for you to tell me he would have never been famous with it. Roy bearer, can you imagine if his name was roy?

Speaker 5:

I mean, you know my first name right, by the way why am I going on a whole name tangent?

Speaker 2:

Sorry to all the Roys out there.

Speaker 5:

I know Blaine LeBron Like come on.

Speaker 2:

I think it's a good name. My mom is very proud of Blaine, I just have to say. But you can say things like blame it on Blaine. I'm launching my new series, blaine Bitches, it rhymes with things, but Roy, I Roy, I mean Roy, that wouldn't work. Rock, that's good Rock.

Speaker 5:

You have now changed it again to Blaine's Bitches or Blaine Bitches.

Speaker 2:

Blaine Bitches.

Speaker 5:

That's what we're going with so bluntly Blaine wasn't a thing, no, blaine.

Speaker 2:

No, Blaine Bitches. I've always wanted to do Blaine Bitches, so I'm going to do that which is going to be called. By the way, we're taking a little detour, we're taking a little detour, but Uh well, you named it. For me it's called Read Between the Lines because I constantly text and send videos while I'm driving. You don't text, you actually just send audio messages and video messages.

Speaker 5:

I do, I like sending video and audio messages. It gives a little, you know, a little intimate. I don't know it's intimate, it's private.

Speaker 2:

It's unique. I do love it, so we're going to share that with our viewers. Read between the lines will be available to you soon. We'll be launching that on at coffee, with gaze pod on tiktok and all of our other social channels which we are live on um. The sad thing about rock is you you know he died of AIDS in 1985. So he was actually outed for real because, um, he obviously died during the AIDS epidemic. So really super sad.

Speaker 5:

I thought that was in. I thought that was a hearsay. I'm sorry. I thought it wasn't publicly known that he passed wave aids like they were keeping it hush hush they were keeping it hush hush but it was finally confirmed.

Speaker 2:

Like did some, like due diligence on it? So it finally like they confirmed it, that at first they kind of denied it but then they finally confirmed it is this next one about katherine hepburn? It's my favorite one.

Speaker 5:

Yes this is where she's like george george.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so this is the thing that, like, absolutely killed me. Like I did not know that katherine hepburn was a lesbian first of all. Like did you?

Speaker 5:

I mean if, if you want to know my level of ignorance, I kind of just assume that nobody before 1970 was gay.

Speaker 2:

Well, you also previously kept referring to her as Audrey Hepburn, which is not the same person.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, I did. To my defense, they have the same last name, man.

Speaker 2:

It is true. It is true. So I did not know that Katherine Hepburn was a lesbian, but a long, long time lesbian and just absolutely crazy. I just love, well, I love her, but this story is just fascinating.

Speaker 6:

What can you say about, if anything about, Katherine Hepburn?

Speaker 8:

Katherine Hepburn would have liked you. Katherine Hepburn was not really nice to Spencer Tracy.

Speaker 6:

Because, huh, do you have any idea why that was? Because he was married, or what?

Speaker 8:

No, they were merely friends and they were in business together. Show business, spencer Tracy. They were not in a bed department together at all, never, never.

Speaker 5:

It's wrong, never, never think lesbians like gay men too much, or men for that matter and that's why it's a better story.

Speaker 8:

People say oh, I thought they were lovers. You know, I said well, they, they weren't, but it sounds good a lesbian in a gay marriage tracy is one of married wedding was rockets.

Speaker 11:

George Cukor directed some of the greatest Hepburn-Tracy films. Spencer Tracy lived on the grounds at George Cukor's house, but he was still married to his wife, who he loved very much, and there's always been the presumption that he and Hepburn lived together in that little cottage. In fact they did not live together. There was another cottage where Hepburn lived. Hepburn in later years tried to make it seem as if they were living in a cottage together, sharing a household like man and wife.

Speaker 4:

Remember that night when oh I don't know you felt so disturbed and I said well, go on in, go to bed, I'll talk you to sleep. I'll just talk and talk, and you'll be so bored you're bound to drift off.

Speaker 11:

It was not that way. They were not living together. They never lived together.

Speaker 6:

She was a designer of her own legend and she had several fervid relationships with talented other women. She was very guarded about what she did.

Speaker 8:

George kind of told Katherine Hartburn early in the game what I did. You know, in a way Then I could see running through her head. Well, if he fixes up guys, he should be able to fix up girls too with girls. You know what I did. You know, in a way then I could see running through her head. Well, if he fixes up guys, he should be able to fix up girls too with girls. You know what I mean? I could see that I fixed her up with every bit of 150 girls and people says how was she? I can't believe it. At least she's over a period of 100 years. They've helped me 50 years. I mean that's not unusual at all.

Speaker 11:

The traditional image is that Tracy bullied Hepburn. This was not true.

Speaker 9:

Oh, what are you doing? Testing.

Speaker 11:

She wouldn't have tolerated that kind of behavior from anyone. I began to understand that if in fact there were conflicts between Hepburn and Tracy, they went both ways and she was not happy about his drinking or his friendship with Scott.

Speaker 8:

Scotty would come down to Cukor's house specifically to see Spencer Tracy. I get arrived there at five o'clock in the evening. At two o'clock in the morning I'm still sitting at the kitchen table listening to him talk and going I don't know what else. To help I better go to bed now. And he'd get up and almost fall. He put his arm on me. We would go go to bed, but then the next morning he would always say geez, I must have gotten drunk last night. You were so nice to stay. Just like nothing ever happened. It was always the same. He really didn't want to be gay or admit to himself.

Speaker 8:

he might possibly be, Gosh he was just quite the hustler, and so the best way is not to admit it, right.

Speaker 5:

He never admitted there, though, that they slept together.

Speaker 8:

I can't handle it in my head. It rocks me.

Speaker 7:

The ironic thing is that it was somehow more acceptable to the general public to be in an adulterous relationship than it was to be gay or lesbian. Same today. But the whole thing about being gay in Hollywood if you played along, you were okay. The studio executives did not really care if someone was gay or not, they only cared about your public persona.

Speaker 2:

Okay, now I want you to dig into that.

Speaker 5:

Okay. So I, I mean, I will say I do think that monogamy is kind of in question today for a lot of people. I I also believe that a lot of people think that monogamy is stupid, doesn't exist, which I think is wrong. For those of you that think that monogamy is stupid, to judge us, us monogamous people. I don't judge anybody that wants a polygamous or open relationship, so I shouldn't be judged for wanting a monogamous relationship. However, that that whole situation just seems like swinging polygamy, openness, non-monogamy, non-judgmental how do you feel, blaine?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I just don't think that people are judged for monogamy.

Speaker 5:

I definitely feel judged for wanting to be monogamous.

Speaker 2:

In the gay world, you do Hell heck, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 5:

I don't know I to be monogamous In the gay world, you do.

Speaker 2:

Hell heck. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I don't know. I feel like it's celebrated.

Speaker 5:

It's also very difficult to find a date that wants to be monogamous too.

Speaker 2:

Now I will say that I will agree with you on that one for sure.

Speaker 5:

I've probably found more couples. I've probably matched with more couples than I have on Tinder.

Speaker 2:

Unknowingly, unknowingly, they were in a couple well, that actually does make sense to me. I do understand that, especially in the gay world, yeah. But you know I will say I do watch those to catch a cheater a lot on TikTok and it's pretty prevalent in the straight world as well.

Speaker 5:

Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2:

So maybe you are right. Yeah, I was just shocked. 150 women over 50 years, I mean I guess it's not that much.

Speaker 5:

Compared to your number. No, no blame, it's not less.

Speaker 2:

Oh, and I'm sorry, we've got your number. That's supposedly 20, but we know that's a big old lie.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, it's probably way less. If I'm being honest, that would be, you know, 20 people. I just yeah, no.

Speaker 2:

The other person I was just fascinated with in this documentary was George Cukor, which he just mentioned in this whole Catherine Hepburn segment. He was the producer.

Speaker 5:

So that's a compound that he owned right. It had three separate houses, it looked like.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so Catherine and Spencer Tracy lived in the guest houses on the compound, and then George would have all these crazy parties every single weekend with all these hot dudes, which is just like. I mean, it just seems so amazing. These were the days and this is the clip that you were mentioning earlier where Catherine was like don't out us.

Speaker 9:

This Hollywood friend buddy. You and I traveled the same highways and low light in the alleyways. That's Hollywood, French buddy, you and I travel the same highways and low light in the alleyways. That's right. You know, I worked for George Cukor for two years and Catherine Hepburn lived down in the guest house. She'd come up, George. George, I hope you're not up there spilling the beans about us Telling the truth. We've been in a closet for 40 years and you know. Finally we had to cancel a book and George hated it. George had to give back $75,000 in advance.

Speaker 10:

That nearly killed him, george Cukor, has been the center of more controversies than any other director in the history of Hollywood. He's not only directed a string of highly successful pictures like Little Women, philadelphia Story and Adam's Rib, but he's also been fired from quite a few, including Gone with the Wind.

Speaker 8:

I met George in 1947. George came in the gas station in his new and black Dodge sedan, introduced himself and invited me up to the house Within a few days. I was up here. He almost came on like Walter Bidgen it's a hot day. I'd love to have you come up, take a dip in my pool and cool off and things like that.

Speaker 10:

George Cukor has never married, but lives alone in a palatial home in Beverly Hills, a house which has seven living rooms and only one bedroom.

Speaker 11:

George Cukor was really one of the arbiters of Hollywood society. He was someone who had the greatest parties. He knew everyone.

Speaker 9:

On Saturday nights there were, like the great elegant soirees, that of the kings and queens of Hollywood. The great elegant soirees, that of the kings and queens of Hollywood Vivien Leigh, laurence Olivier, garbo. Sunday afternoons, around the pool was brunch with 10, 12, 15. See, everybody was just beautiful in. Hollywood. Well, he's not that cute. Scottie Bowers would always provide new talent.

Speaker 11:

Should have been the talent right, Well, he's not that cute. George Cukor was the epicenter for gay Hollywood in the 30s. If George gave his seal of approval to someone, the rest of the community looked on with favor. George resorted to Scotty. He wasn't simply this, madam Cukor called for events. He was also a friend of George Cukor's and Scotty became friends with many of Cukor's friends.

Speaker 5:

I mean this is kind of like that fabulous Hollywood thing, time period for me that I think would have been beautiful, the beautiful side of this Time Going to a QCOR party sorry as you, as they were talking about it, I googled images of kukur's house because I'm very interested in real estate, um, and I'm really curious to see a one bedroom, seven living room house. There's nothing really extravagant about it, it seems. Today it almost looks buried in the mountain.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, kooker's an interesting guy yeah, he died with like 2.8 million dollars, I guess modest, but um, I think he just spent lavishly, but I think at the time I mean he died at the 80 and 83, so that's pretty a lot, but he had like fabulous parties like all the time. Obviously katherine hepburn was one of its top people, but he lived up in benedict canyon yeah, cougar's house is the house that they lived at yeah, they lived in.

Speaker 5:

Well, they lived in guest homes on the property yeah, right, but the main house that cougar lived in was the one bedroom seven living room house as opposed to the other two. So I mean it does make sense now, if you think about it logically. If he has two other houses on the property that have multiple bedrooms, what's the point of having any more than one in his house?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, I guess that makes sense. Yeah, why would you have people stay with you?

Speaker 5:

if you don't. He just wants to host parties and then have them send them over to their guest house. Yeah, interesting fellow.

Speaker 2:

Yeah he was fascinating. You know, I think the really interesting part of this documentary is it wasn't just the glamour and everything of hollywood, it was also just really like a scary time for gays, and I think what really hit home for me about it is I see a lot on tiktok and social media about people saying, oh, it's so dangerous to be an american and everything, when really I think this is like the best time we've ever been able to be gay and probably one of the safest countries, and there was just some stuff that I didn't even know. It's just really kind of terrifying about, like, what gays had to go through in like the 40s and 50s and really up until the 70s. So this was a pretty powerful clip, I thought.

Speaker 8:

Remember at that time many people who were gay had jobs that they would lose jobs if they were exposed in any way. After World War II the Vice Squad was red hot in this town Picking up guys for nothing.

Speaker 9:

It wasn't fun sitting in a gay bar on Melrose in 1962, waiting for the police to raid. They'd go in there and say we have a court of eight for tonight and you know to be beaten up in public parks or have an effeminate friend viciously attack going down the street.

Speaker 11:

It's probably hard for people who were born in the last 20, 30, perhaps even 40 years to fully grasp how difficult it was. Not only was it hard for them to find someone to fall in love, but if they tried they could go to jail, they could go to an institution where they might be castrated or lobotomized. This was a terrible, terrible time.

Speaker 7:

Lobotomize. God Crush the monster Crush homosexuality.

Speaker 8:

Homosexuality is in fact a mental illness which has reached epidemiological proportions.

Speaker 11:

When we hear about these stories of people being arrested in the parks and we think, well, they must have been such darrots to be down there having sex in public, but in some cases, you know, they were simply there to meet someone like themselves. Scotty was able to allow these people to have lives that were honest and authentic, which is really what they were seeking.

Speaker 9:

I think what Scotty did was kind of an introduction service. People wanted something. Scotty would get it for them.

Speaker 2:

So I think that really just kind of like sums it up. You know like he was a connector and really helped them find what they were searching for, you know, in a private way, during a really dangerous time.

Speaker 5:

You know kind of like what. No, I just think our audience would be so pleased. Now that I'm thinking about it, this guy graciously set up the elite white celebrities of the 50s.

Speaker 2:

Well, true gay white no, you're 100% right. I mean, that clip obviously was a bunch of guys that you know weren't elites that were getting arrested, castrated and lobotomized, right, oh my god, it was uh, and that happened. By the way, I checked all the way up until the 70s, you have to think. The Stonewall riots and this is when Pride started was 1969. So that's kind of when the revolution started. These bar raids were happening all the way up until into the 70s.

Speaker 2:

So you know, it was really dangerous to be gay. You could be arrested all the time, oh you know. And then, obviously, like even with our friend Matt, like all the way into the 80s, 90s, you know, early 2000s, like people were in the closet for a reason, like you could lose your job. There's obviously movies like Philadelphia, where you could be fired, and you can still be fired in a lot of cases. I mean, we don't have workplace protections but at the same time, you know, even in my lifetime I've just seen so much progress. But you know, we still have kids and, like you said, we're millennials that are posting, you know, crap all the time about it being dangerous to be gay in America. I just got a few clips. I'm going to skip some because we're kind of running short on time. There's plenty of them. Not that Kathy Griffin is gay, but she seems to try to speak for us and it really pisses me off. So I'm going to start with her.

Speaker 3:

Gays, you may not be safe. So to be gay in America much less trans, because they're obsessed with trans people to be LGBT in America is not going to be a safe thing anymore.

Speaker 2:

This was right. After the election of course.

Speaker 3:

To be a woman in America will be even less safe than it already is. So take care of each other. Have plans. Make sure you know how to gather support if you're afraid to walk down the street walk down the street, come on right magnets on the outside of my okay, this one really someone with I.

Speaker 2:

I just I'm allergic to it, it's painful, it hurts, it's okay, the the one I'm gonna skip to is the one that just really has been getting on my nerves lately, and I just think it really sums up what I've seen a lot of and it just really bugs me more than anything.

Speaker 5:

I'm ashamed to be an American Cause.

Speaker 10:

God knows, I'm not free and I won't forgive the men who lied and took my rights from me. And I'll stand up against your throne and curse her to this day, because there ain't no doubt I used to love this land but goddamn fuck the usa.

Speaker 5:

That's a ballsy ballsy.

Speaker 2:

Let me tell you something about this girl. She identifies as a I'm shaking, I'm so upset about it. She identifies as a non-binary femme-presenting lesbian. She has 500,000 followers and she claims to not be free in this country. She's posting about all the pride collections out there. Look, she is free, she is privileged, she is monetized. Can I tell you, the celebrities we talked about today would have loved to have her platform and would have loved to talk about the things that she talks about, and they had to live in the shadows. And, by the way, what makes me so angry about that video that she posted is she's saying GDF, the USA, and yet millions died for her right to I'm sorry, their right to live and post videos like that. However, also, how many gay military people also died that were like in the shadows as well, and yet she's basically spitting on their sacrifice. It's really disgusting to me.

Speaker 5:

Well, individuals like that, you know, anyone with half a brain, would realize that that's just a stupid, stupid thing to post, you know what it is.

Speaker 2:

It's cloud chasing. It's cloud chasing. It's not like reality, right? That makes it even more disgusting. So you're saying GDF, the USA and you're trying to chase cloud and you're spitting on the millions of Americans who died for your freedom to be a non-binary femme-presenting lesbian with 500,000 followers on TikTok. You know what GDF you?

Speaker 5:

Rewind to the 60s and basically she's one of those individuals burning flags in the middle of like, in front of the Capitol, like that's exactly.

Speaker 2:

It's gross. What an idiot.

Speaker 5:

Except the irony in this in today, all of these social media platforms, people don't realize that you're reaching so many more individuals by being on social media and posting these things. You guys do realize that, right Like. It's not like back in the day, where a picture pops up and if you're watching the news or you know, or if you happen to search it on the internet, you come across it. This is reaching people in real time like tenfold.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, luckily the comments were really negative against her on it, but it just was really offensive to me and I think it was offensive to hopefully, every American, you know. But it's not like she still doesn't have 500,000 followers, sorry, they have 500,000 followers.

Speaker 5:

Well, it's not like people don't enjoy going on YouTube and watching car accidents happen. You know like how many, so I get it. Just because she has 500,000 followers doesn't mean all those followers believe or, you know, agree with her point.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, look, I don't believe in cancel culture, but for stuff like that, I just think it's she's canceled. It's grotesque to me, it's just grotesque. I truly love this country. It's given us a lot and I think as gay people, we've Like I said, in the 20 years I've been out, I have seen us get so many rights, so much acceptance. Like I said in a previous episode, I can go to my grandfather's church in East Texas and have more acceptance than I had 20 years ago.

Speaker 5:

Right, I feel the same way, coming from a Catholic upbringing. Now, listen guys, I'm not a pride person. However, I will never be ashamed about being an openly gay man. I will never be ashamed about the partner I have, whenever I have one.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for clarifying.

Speaker 5:

Just to say I'm not a pride person, but I am happy to support the cause and I believe in what Blaine believes in most of the time we can agree to disagree sometimes.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, we've officially relaunched. I just wanted to kind of make a few announcements. We are now on TikTok at CoffeeWithGaysPod because I think our other one is Shadowband, but I'm going to be posting on both YouTube. We're going to just keep posting on CoffeeWithGays. All of our new episodes will drop on Thursday, starting June 5th with this episode and, like I said, it'll mostly be just me and Reid because we're super committed. Ryan's still around but, like I said, we have some super spicy guests coming up. And right now we have a series that I'm working on and pushing out ahead of the launch of this, which is, I effed up, the launch of my podcast, coffee with gaze. It's been actually really fun to uh record, uh and all the lessons learned during this, and I'm still have more. By the way, I'm sure this episode will not be perfect.

Speaker 5:

It already isn't I've been meaning to tell you. I think this should be like a streaming streaming thing, because things are gonna get fucked up on every episode in a way for sure.

Speaker 2:

It's already at 25 parts and I'm probably gonna add five more just from this episode.

Speaker 2:

Um blaine is a perfectionist y'all, and sometimes he takes on a little too much on his own, but you gotta give him credit he's a hard worker you know what, I am having fun with it and, like I said, I started this project and I think the biggest issue, like we've talked about, has just been consistency, and this is the first time I've been inspired and dedicated to being consistent, literally not going out and just focused on making content, and it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, but thank you, by the way, for being here like every day during Memorial Day and all this stuff. It's been really fun to kind of like reignite this. I've been really having a lot of fun.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, it's not like I have any plans, or boyfriend or.

Speaker 2:

Neither do I, so might as well do something fun, also launching a side series, blaine Bitches, which I'm super excited about. My first target is my hairstylist, who commented on my slight weight gain. Anyway, more on that, he's actually going to be one of our guests too, because we want to do a whole segment on herapy.

Speaker 5:

Is he giving free haircuts? Because I mean, if you're going to be a guest, he never does anything for free.

Speaker 2:

honey, he's already trying to upsell me on highlights this summer.

Speaker 5:

I mean, I like my barber, but if he's going to come on the show and market himself and advertise, I think I should get a fade.

Speaker 2:

Wait, I was waiting for a little quip on herapy. What's herapy? See, that's what I was waiting for.

Speaker 5:

See, my brain doesn't register things like herapy.

Speaker 2:

Girl herapy.

Speaker 5:

It's like when you go get your hair done and you get therapy at the same time? Don't you know that I do chat gpt therapy?

Speaker 2:

that is a part of your series. You want to announce it again. It's a read uh. Read between the lines because, by the way, it is like I'm sure you're weaving between the lines when you do all of your uh I don't even think.

Speaker 5:

I don't think I was in the lines, in between the lines. I think I was way over the line, but yeah, um, it's called read between read between the lines and uh, blaine has created it for me specifically uh, I think it's a cute name. It's a cute name yeah, I mean it's it's all right, it's cute, like you well, we're also going to be doing one that's where's ryan, kind of like where's waldo, but where's ryan?

Speaker 2:

because we never know where he is. I have to look up his location I gotta look up his location too.

Speaker 5:

I think he's in. He's at the walk or the bike ride right now.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now he's in san francisco, but he was in florida last week. I mean, we don't know, he was at the gulf of america last week. Actually sent sent a picture from the gulf of america oh, he went to Pensacola, right?

Speaker 5:

Yes, yeah. Was that Pride or something?

Speaker 2:

No, no, no, I don't actually know what it was, Just you know being with boys.

Speaker 5:

There were a lot of boys there, that's for sure.

Speaker 2:

So don't forget our two-part episode with Matt coming out. The first one will be his outing, his traumatic outing, and then the second part will be kind of like that redemption post outing, like what he learned and all of his insights. So if you made it this far, you're officially one of us. This podcast isn't trying to be polished or pretty, that's fucking for sure.

Speaker 2:

Speak for yourself, but I had fun with it. So if you made it this far hit, subscribe. It made the world to us also. Please comment and tell us what you want to see here. You know, have us talk about who you want us to talk to yes, absolutely.

Speaker 5:

Blaine is going to put a contact email or some sort something right here. It's dotel at coffeewithgayscom right any requests that you have, whether it's for read between the lines, for the podcast itself. God ask us questions y'all. If we offend you in any way, let us know if we do something funny, by all means you know what I love more than anything?

Speaker 2:

I love a hate comment. I will, I will take you on all day long. I mean, if you want to just go at it, just let me go for it yeah I don't do filtered comments, by the way, no way I don't need hate comments.

Speaker 5:

However, I'm definitely willing to accept some sarcasm. Make fun of me. All you want, I'm all for it yes, I'm not.

Speaker 2:

I'm not afraid of critical comments. How about that?

Speaker 5:

we'll call it critical yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah criticism yeah, critical comments are fine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, anytime. So, yeah, um, that's it for today. Thank you so much, reed, for coming and thanks everybody for listening. I hope you enjoyed this. And uh, yeah, this is the end of before it was safe. Looking back on the lines is that made pride possible, and we really want to the end of before it was safe, looking back on the lines that made pride possible, and we really want to thank all of the people that made pride possible, and not just the rich white gays of hollywood, but really all those people that suffered, because I really think back back on it and there's just so many people that you know lived in the shadows. We had the AIDS epidemic. Really, the history of the gay community is about strength and resilience. So happy start to pride. I know you aren't a huge fan, but cheers to that. Oh, this is my big mug. I'll do my like small Coffee with Gays mug. So cheers to that and cheers to the launch of Coffee with Gays. And, yeah, we'll see you next week with our Nat episode.

Speaker 5:

Yes, see you next week.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Adam Bailey

Co-host
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Blaine LaBron

Co-host
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Ryan Hines

Co-host