Smarter Online Business - Tech, Tools & Truths for Websites that Sell

The Hybrid Evergreen Formula: Scale Your Business Without Burning Out

• Carrie Saunders • Episode 123

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Are you tired of the constant hustle, unpredictable income, and the stress of launching again and again? Imagine building a thriving online business that scales effortlessly while giving you the freedom to actually enjoy your life. Sounds impossible? 

Well, today’s guest, Masha Goins, has cracked the code with her Hybrid Evergreen Formula. She’s here to share how you can create consistent, scalable revenue without burnout—so you can finally build a business that works for you, not the other way around. You don’t want to miss this one!


Connect with Masha Goins

Masha Goins is an online business coach and magnetic marketing strategist and the host of podcast money magnet mama. Work primarily with impact driven coaches, entrepreneurs, and service providers to scale soulful, high profit businesses to multi six and seven figures online.

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Carrie Saunders:

Are you tired of the constant hustle, unpredictable income and the stress of launching again and again, or having a business that makes you feel like you're in hustle mode all the time? Imagine building a thriving online business that scales effortlessly while giving you the time freedom to actually enjoy your life. I know it can sound really impossible, but today's guest, Masha Goins, has cracked the code with her hybrid evergreen formula. Today's guest, Masha Goins, has cracked the code with her hybrid evergreen formula. She's here to share how you can create content, scale your revenue without burnout, so you can confidently build a business that works for you and not the other way around. So let's dive in Struggling to turn website traffic into real sales. You're not alone and you don't have to figure it out all yourself.

Carrie Saunders:

Welcome to Smarter Online Business, the podcast. For course creators, coaches and e-commerce entrepreneurs who want their websites to convert visitors into buyers without the tech overwhelm. I'm your host, Carrie Saunders, a website strategist and conversion expert with over 20 years of experience. Each episode delivers simple, proven strategies to help you generate more revenue and make your website your smartest sales tool. Welcome back to the show. Today we have a special guest with us and her name is Masha Goins, and she is a magnetic business coach. So welcome to the show, Masha.

Masha Goins:

Thank you, , I'm excited to be here.

Carrie Saunders:

So tell us a little bit more about you, so that we get to know you a little bit better.

Masha Goins:

Okay, so I am an online business coach and a magnetic marketing strategist, and I'm also the host of the podcast Money Magnet. Mama and I work primarily with impact-driven coaches, entrepreneurs and service providers to scale soulful, high-profit businesses to multi-six and seven figures online, and I'm really passionate about working less, or working smarter, and living life offline even though we're making money online.

Carrie Saunders:

I love that and so you know, when I got to know you a little bit, I saw that you have this hybrid, evergreen formula, and I was reading your bio and you know I've followed you and listened to your podcast some of your podcast episodes and it sounds like a game changer for scaling online business. So can you explain a little bit more about what this is and like your strategies behind it and how it helped entrepreneurs achieve what you're talking about, which is, you know, scalable revenue while you know, not getting burnt out, not being full of hustle?

Masha Goins:

Yes, exactly, I think you know part of it is that we our society is so hustle obsessed, right, productivity is prized about everything, and if you're being, you know, unproductive, then you're lazy and and so I'm very anti hustle and I'm very anti pro marketing in that sense, because I think that we, as entrepreneurs, we're actually creatives and we need that downtime, we need that white space in order for us to generate and cultivate our best business ideas and have breakthroughs and get ourselves to the next level. Because when we stay kind of like in that hustle mode and in our never ending to do list, we can't take a step back and look at like hold on a second, I'm just like scrambling month to month here. What I really need to do is like triple my monthly revenue, you know. So the hybrid, evergreen formula is basically an antidote to the typical launch structure that is taught in online business, which is you have this mega launch once or twice a year and everything rides on that launch right, and so it's really high pressure and you feel the financial pressure, especially if this is like you know something that you're trying to pay the bills with.

Masha Goins:

And then how do you generate revenue in between? Because what happens is it becomes this feast or famine cycle, right, this like launch revenue rollercoaster where you're like, yay, I made some sales and now, okay, now I am not launching for a while, so now you start feeling it, and then you get to the point where you're desperate and you have to like again live launch. And so I really try to move my clients away from this live launch roller coaster model to something I call hybrid evergreen formula, which means that you're basically always offering a service, you're always enrolling, you're always selling, but and you're always serving your people, right, and whether that is having an evergreen offer or having multiple evergreen offers or having a different promotions that you schedule for throughout the ideas, really is a shift to moving away from that. You know, kind of traditional, old fashioned model.

Carrie Saunders:

That makes a lot of sense and I know that whenever I get in the hustle because it can happen, you know, doing this business for almost 23 years now there are times where I just feel like I really am hustling. But whenever I recognize that and step back and say wait a minute, I'm not giving myself space to be creative and to plan. And once I start doing that again things fall in place again. So I love that you help business owners really have permission to take that space and to not have the hustle and have a plan that sounds like it's a pretty solid plan so they don't feel fearful of not having enough cashflow or money if they're not doing these big launches and they've. You know you've helped them figure out how to do that evergreen type model underneath all of those things. So I love how you do that there.

Masha Goins:

Yeah, I really think it's a game changer because, you know, first of all, I'm a mom. I have two little kids and I only work part time hours while my kids are in school, because I really want to be present for them, you know. So, whether you're a parent or you're just like, you know what I want to go hiking with my dog. I want to to see my friend for lunch. I want to do things that I couldn't do in my nine to five Like. For me, that's also like working out. I work out like five days a week.

Masha Goins:

Now, when I was in my nine to five and I was commuting and I had toddlers and I was nursing, and you know, I remember going to the doctor and telling him like how exhausted I was and how bad I felt in my body, like physically so bad. And he's like oh, that's normal, you're just a young mom and you're working. And I was like this is? He's like, why don't you start working out every day for an hour, five days a week, and come back to me in a month? I just laughed at him. I laughed because I was like there's literally not an hour, there's no hour. What planet are you from that? You think that I can add another hour of working out to my full-time schedule when I come home and then have to mom on top of that? It was ludicrous.

Masha Goins:

I wanted to cry when he said that and I realized, like, okay, this is not the doctor for me, clearly, but I think that there's this, you know. That's why, when I went all in on my business and I quit my full-time job, I said you know, I'm going into my family, I pour into my spouse, I pour into my kids. Everybody benefits when I am well rested, when I am, you know, feeling good in my body, when I don't feel super stressed and anxious. And I think that you know the financial pressure it kills us. Like that stress is a killer, like we know that now, right, all the scientific studies have come out and everyone's like meditate, meditate.

Masha Goins:

Meanwhile you're like, ah, it can't sit still for five seconds, you know. So what I really think is critical is kind of like how do you bake in that permission, like only you can give yourself as the business owner, only you can give yourself that permission to say you know what? I don't work on Fridays. Fridays is my self-care day. Or I delete my social media apps on the weekend, which is what I have to do because I literally, otherwise my fingers find the apps on their own. So there's ways that you have to do it, but it has to be self-led, like you have to start to create those boundaries yourself and give yourself permission to do that.

Carrie Saunders:

Yeah, and in that I think that makes a whole lot of sense because I mean, I've actually tried to prioritize this year.

Carrie Saunders:

This year I've been prioritizing me because I had to put myself in the back burner for a few years and it's been hard to do that.

Carrie Saunders:

And I actually committed to doing a sprint triathlon here. It's going to be as of this recording, it's going to be in a few weeks and you know I've just had to say no, I have to go work out so that I can achieve this goal and better myself. And it's really opened up my brain to being creative again in the business and to having that feeling like I have the space. You know, even though I might have a hustle day or week, you know, I still bring myself back to that calmness and, you know, pouring into myself. So I love that you mix that with what you teach, because I think that's very important for business people and entrepreneurs is to feel permission, to have that balance. And it really is, because I feel, like a lot of people we aren't grown that way, like we aren't like raised that way that you can have this space, and I think it's important to show our children that as well.

Masha Goins:

Exactly, exactly, and I think that you know there is the reason to do that is not just because it feels good. You're going to live longer, you're going to be healthier and you're going to enjoy life more, you're going to make more money. Right, there is a direct correlation between my clients who literally do this like, implement these kind of boundaries, and how they scale their revenue. Because when you think about it right, like when you have a deadline, right, most people procrastinate until the deadline, but they're stressed the whole time, right, they're like, oh my God, I have to do this thing, I've got to do this thing right. And then, like, they do the thing and they're like, okay, well, that took me 15 minutes to do, but I thought about it for three months and beat myself up over it.

Masha Goins:

So when you actually look at the time, I'm obsessed with time freedom. I mean, that's what it boils down to, having that time freedom. And when you look at the time that you spend on stuff, a lot of the things that we do are not the needle, moving money, making activities, right, they're the things that we feel like we should be doing and we think like, okay, I should be doing this and this is going to help my business grow, but they actually suck up all of our energy and time and they don't help us move forward.

Carrie Saunders:

Yeah, and I find that that is so true and it's so easy to fall into that business hustle trap which I feel like is what you're talking about here where you're just doing and doing, doing and not really moving the needle forward. So how does your approach help them break free from this? How do we? How do we break them free from, you know, dropping into that hustle trap and feeling like we got to do all the little things and it's really not really getting us anywhere?

Masha Goins:

Right? Well, for the first thing, I'm like step away from the content hamster wheel, right, because I feel like, you know, content is something that can be really like, especially people who are not what you should be doing. Yes, you want to have valuable content, but having one piece of valuable content a week is enough to nurture your audience. The focus really has to be on your offer. What is your offer? What are you selling? How can you leverage that selling? How can you leverage that offer? How can you restructure the pricing?

Masha Goins:

I love pricing. I'm also a pricing strategist, so one of the things that I love to do is look at people's offer stacks and look at how they've set up their pricing models, and sometimes it's just like restructuring your pricing and realizing like, oh, wait, a second, if I just change the pricing and I, you know, prioritize this offer and I start selling this offer, instead of creating a brand new offer because I think that one's not good enough and I'm going to just burn the whole thing down, create a new one, you know, sticking with what works, like what sells, and then amplifying that. That's really, in a nutshell, like what it boils down to.

Carrie Saunders:

Well, and I know from following you, you also work with magnetic marketing and mindset like magic. It would be maybe some of the words that you use on your podcast and in your bio. So from what you're talking about right now, this kind of lends towards like how did those two components work with? How you help them build up what they already have rather than building new? How do you work those two components together to create sustainable business growth?

Masha Goins:

So that's such a great question because the reason that we usually feel like our stuff is not good enough is because it's our lack of self-worth, right, we feel like we're not good enough, you know, and our imposter syndrome everything we put out we're like, ah, this isn't that great, you know, like this other person's stuff is so much better, you know. And we're constantly like comparing ourselves. I call it like comparisonitis because it's really a disease, right, we compare ourselves. We are our worst critics internally, right In our minds, when we should be our biggest cheerleaders. We're like always tearing ourselves down, and so the mindset part is the energy part is part of that. Like the energy and the mindset part is really important.

Masha Goins:

And I know that some people who are like, oh, that's like woo, that has nothing to do with actual, you know, fiscal responsibility and revenue growth and, on the contrary, the wealthiest and the most successful entrepreneurs it is a hundred percent yet like 20% strategy and then 80% mindset that got them there, right, and really, that belief, that unshakable belief in themselves.

Masha Goins:

So how do you get from this place of self-doubt and overwhelm and lack of self-worth to having this unshakable belief in yourself, right, and that is falling in love with your offer, Like I call it, like creating an irresistible offer, something that you feel so passionate about. You are so lit up by it and then your audience can't help. But, you know, resonate with that, Because when you're excited about something and you know that this is going to have an impact on people, this is going to change people's lives, it's going to this is going to sell right, it's going to sell like hotcakes, like your offer is going to sell itself, Whereas when you're like here's my offer, but it's really not that great, you know, like I'm not that proud of it. I feel like I got to redo the videos and this and that you know, like, whether whatever it is, like physical product or, like you know, a digital product that feeling of like hiding your offer. It completely correlates to are you going to convert and make sales with it or not?

Carrie Saunders:

I can, as you were speaking, all that, like I was thinking about the past 20 some years of our business and me running it, and I can totally relate to the mindset part. So when I first started this business, I mean I had no idea what I was doing, but like I was a young 25 year old, like super brave, you know, I didn't think I could fail or anything and so like my mindset was so in the right place, even though I didn't know what I was doing, and we were more profitable then in our early years than in the later years, as I've gotten more wise, let's say. But you know, sometimes a wisdom brings fear and doubt and uncertainty to yourselves too. So that's been something I've been working on the past few years is my own mindset, because you know we go through ebbs and flows, you know. So if you're new to business, note that this might come back and hit you later, like it has me.

Carrie Saunders:

And if you've been in business a while and you've seen this happen to you, where your mindset's not quite, you know, in the best place to keep you moving forward. You know, just know that that's normal, I feel like. And you just got to find somebody like Masha or somebody that you resonate with, to help bring your mindset around so that you can be the best version of you, because we all have such great you know strengths and qualities that we don't see until somebody else tells us sometimes, which is kind of sad in this. You know, in our culture here, Exactly.

Masha Goins:

And you know that's why you have to find someone who believes in you. And you know you have to find a mentor who really believes in you, because if they believe in you, you start your mind starts going hold on a second. If they believe in me and they think that I can be their success story, then that means that I can actually do it Right. That means that I can, because there's a part of us that's always like the fear doesn't go away. It's not like you're going to wake up one day and be like I am super confident, I have absolutely no fear.

Masha Goins:

Who cares about the mortgage? You know, like that stuff doesn't go away, but it's. It's acknowledging that yeah, I feel you fear, but we're good, like we're good, we're doing this and I know what I'm doing. And that's the key, like having that clarity and that strategy. Because when you have the fear and then you're kind of like, oh, let me do this, let me do this, and you're jumping from one strategy to another, that kind of it's a confidence draining vortex, you know, because you're like I'm not really sure what I'm doing and you start overthinking everything and it can just like all kind of crumple. You know.

Carrie Saunders:

Yes, and I can honestly tell you kind of described me right there that you know I had some personal things that had has happened past five or six years and it really made me mentally spiral and I was jumping here and there and everywhere. It wasn't until I got some good business mentors and we talk about this a lot on the podcast. Sometimes being an entrepreneur seems like you're so alone. So it's so important to find whether it's a business friend or a mentor to walk this walk with you to help you pull yourself out of any of these mental spirals you might get because of some sort of outside influence, some trauma or tragedy you've had in your life. It's really important and even if you don't have trauma or tragedy, sometimes it all just creeps in, no matter what. So, masha, we've been talking about your systems that you create for other businesses and entrepreneurs, so can you tell us a success story or how you use your tactics to transform somebody's business and help them out?

Masha Goins:

Absolutely Okay. So one of the examples I've got a lot of success stories which I am very grateful for. I'm very excited about because it helps me get like I read and watch my testimonials when I'm feeling, when I'm feeling down and I'm like, yeah, see, people believe in you. But one of them, which is really a powerful one, because this is a mom of three who has a very small, organic audience on social media and Instagram specifically, and what she did she has an, she's a service provider, she has an in-person boutique like wellness practice, and what she wanted to do was she was really tapped out in how many hours she had to see patients, right, so she couldn't, you know, she, she just didn't want to add more one on one time and she, but she wanted to scale her revenue. So I was like, great, let's create a group coaching program because I love. That's one of the offer types that I love, because they're so scalable. And I said, why don't we take your number one in-person service and turn it into an online program? And that's what she did. And so in the last year alone, she added like over $300,000 to her business revenue. She just had her first six-figure month.

Masha Goins:

She was just texting me about it the other day and she still doesn't have a sales page for this offer. That's like the mind-blowing thing you know speaking of, like taking messy action and just going for it, like she has been enrolling people in her offer without even having a proper sales page. So it's like something that we keep laughing about, because I know what it's like when you get stuck on like, oh, my website has to be perfect and my sales page has to be really perfect and let me just redo all the copy and now the messaging's not aligned, so let me redo all of that, right? But really, you just need the offer, you need a way for people to pay you and you need to believe in your offer that it can offer that transformation, right? So she implemented this hybrid evergreen formula where she is both doing live promotions once in a while, but she's basically enrolling people on evergreen, so this offer is an Evergreen offer for her.

Carrie Saunders:

That's wonderful. I love how she even got a six-figure month. I mean that's just amazing, especially a mom of three. I'm a mom of three as well and you're a mom of two, so we know what it's like to pay for all the stuff for the kiddos. So I just love that you helped her do it in a way that felt aligned with her as well, which I think is important. And you know, it's kind of infectious when we're excited about something. It's infectious. I mean, you know, if you're listening and you're like well, I don't know if my offer is really that infectious. You know, think about it. When you have that favorite product or that favorite brand, you go tell your friends you know hey, you need to watch this TV show or you need to go buy this new thing. So having that infectiousness can come out even as an entrepreneur and we can sell without selling.

Masha Goins:

Basically, yeah, exactly, and I think that it's really that you know, most people don't feel like their offer is that great, like that's just normal, right, it's because we don't think we're good enough either, right? So if you have to think about what can I do to make this, to make myself fall in love with this business, what would help me get feel more excited about the business, about the offer, about the things that I'm selling, and when you like, go for a walk and think about that, and then then you realize like, oh, maybe it's just like a little shift, maybe it's charging more, maybe you feel resentful because you're doing so much for so little and it's so draining, you know, and we just restructured her offers and her pricing and she's making more and working less, right, and she was like it never occurred to me that I could restructure it in that way. So she was actually pulling back on the amount of hours that she had to do with her clients and they were getting better results, you know. So she and they were loving it. They wanted to have one-on-one access to her. So, like her offer, she has one-on-one access baked into every coaching offer that she does.

Masha Goins:

But it was just draining her and it was just really she was starting to feel resentful. And then when she did this restructure so sometimes it's not like you got to burn everything down, you might just need a refresh and a realignment of your offers and looking at you know, hey, if you, you know, change the pricing of this, would you feel more excited about this. Like, maybe think about that money hitting your bank account. Like, maybe you would you know.

Carrie Saunders:

Yeah, and I feel like many times we just need to sometimes just tweak it, like you were talking about, because sometimes we're just we've either grown out of it we still love it, but there's something about it we have grown out of, so we need to like change it a little bit. So I love how you like take a step back and analyze it from that perspective. So we talked a lot about the hybrid, evergreen approach you know for some of these client examples you've given us, but it could feel overwhelming to some people to get started on that. So what would be the first practical steps that you'd recommend to get started on implementing a strategy like this?

Masha Goins:

So the first thing I would look at is what have you sold before? Right, what have you sold before and at what price point? And starting with that, and then like thinking about how can I sell more of this, and at a higher price point rather than okay, now let me create this complicated funnel with a lead magnet and then this lead magnet doesn't work, so let me create another lead magnet. Then let me spend a year or two creating a course that nobody wants. You know, like there I want people to get to the sale first and if you haven't sold anything online before, think about what you could sell.

Masha Goins:

And the easiest thing to sell is usually right your experience and your expertise packaged right. It's like you can create a coaching offer. Like literally every entrepreneur has so many things that they've learned that they could share with another person who is, you know, about to walk in that path. Right, things that they can avoid. You know, things that they should look out for. You know, like all of this stuff that can be a one-on-one coaching offer that can be packaged up with that in one afternoon. You know it's not something you have to create.

Carrie Saunders:

Yeah. So actually that plays a lot into one of our most popular podcasting episodes, which is the product bundling episode, and it could be bundling a service together and making not really a new package or a new product. You're not really restarting from scratch, but you're just adding a little bit to it to make it even more valuable or make it. You know, something that you, you know sings to your heart more again. So sometimes we just need to tweak what we already have and get that first sale first.

Carrie Saunders:

I love how you want to do the sale first, because we sometimes get so stuck and frustrated because we're waiting on the money, we're waiting on getting the things done, and you know we all get stressed when we don't have enough money. So you know, getting it out, and getting it out in an easy manner, you know how can I make this easy is something I have written down on a post-it note lately. Is you know how can I make this thing easy and I think that's where I hear a lot of your strategies are is, you know, let's make this easy, let's make this fun, let's make this enjoyable, so that we don't feel drained by our own business.

Masha Goins:

Exactly because what happens sometimes is that we create, we build ourselves our own little cages, right, and then we feel overwhelmed by them. And really the idea is to build something that is going to nurture you, right, and it should nurture you in so many different ways, not just in terms of abundance and you receiving, you know payments for, you know the value and the service that you're providing right and the offers that you're providing. And I think that's where, like, some of the mindset work comes in as well, because, especially people who have, like lower price digital offers, they have a lot of resistance to receiving passive revenue. Like we have this inner block, like it can't be this easy, like I gotta work really hard for this and I can't just sleep in on a Sunday and wake up to, like all these payment notifications, like that's not how it can work, right, I gotta hustle really really hard for really really little. First right, and then maybe at some point, right. But if you actually start setting it up so that you have that kind of recurring revenue rolling in, you start getting used to receiving that abundance, you know. You start getting used to looking at your phone and being like, oh yay, you know more money coming in, that's great. Your phone and being like, oh yay, you know more money coming in, that's great.

Masha Goins:

You know like it's not something that and that receiving is a big part.

Masha Goins:

We have a lot of money blocks that we may not even be aware of, like, and we are repelling the sale. We're literally actively like repelling the revenue from coming in and making the sale. So that's another part of it that I feel really passionate about, because once you unblock yourself to that, you realize that all the limitations are really just in your own mind right, that the amount of money and abundance that's out there, the amount of clients and buyers, is limitless. There's an endless amount of abundance and your business there's like no cap for how big it can grow. The only person who can cap it and contain it and cage it is you right. So it's kind of like we're going really deep here. But I think that that's you know. Usually we have these upper ceilings right and we're like well, I can safely make 150 grand in my business, but not any more than that. Because then you know, like we have different people have like different self-limiting narratives that they have in their own mind, but it usually is some kind of a money block.

Carrie Saunders:

And I think that's something that that hopefully the listeners here will actually go back and relisten that little bit there, because I think that's so important to realize that we generally our own money blocks or our own growth blocks. We just need to get still with ourselves and pull back and really look at it, and not in a blaming way, but as an in an encouraging. You know, once we get through this, you know we're going to get past it and be able to, you know, reach those goals that we didn't think were possible before. So I love how you worded that and really made it. You know, it's such a gentle way to remind ourselves that you know we can push past what our ceilings are and we can get to those really big, lofty goals that we want to, and then not only will bring in more finances, but it's going to bring in more joy and more help for others, and I feel like that that's a lot of what most of us are here for is to help others with our own knowledge in some way.

Masha Goins:

Yes, exactly, Exactly we. We want to make a difference, right yeah?

Carrie Saunders:

So, Masha, for those listeners listening in for us. I believe you have a freebie for them, something that they can get and help them with their business. Is that right?

Masha Goins:

Yes. So I have several freebies, and one thing I would say is I have a podcast called Money Magnet Mama and I have whether you're interested in like money blocks or you're more interested in pricing, I have different episodes. So go check out Money Magnet Mama. It's not just for moms, it is just, you know, a mashup basically of online business strategy and magnetic marketing and money mindset.

Masha Goins:

And then I have a really fun freebie, which is it's actually a custom GBT that I created that's called Magnetic Message Coach and that helps you really nail your messaging and your intro. It helps you nail your elevator pitch and your I am statement, and it's a really fun interactive tool, especially with, like AI right, we love spending time on AI. This is like a GBT that you add to your chat GBT dashboard and you get like your full messaging suite. And I think that that's a great starting point, because when you don't have that confidence and clarity in explaining, like, who you are, what you do and who you serve, if you can't like really nail that and dial that in in like a sentence when you're speaking to someone, you're going to really struggle to put yourself out there and sell things, because you know people are not going to understand that the thing that you're selling is actually for them, right? So I'm going to share the link to that with you guys.

Carrie Saunders:

Great, and we will have that link in the show notes and as well as in the podcast description. So, masha, if somebody wants to learn more about you too and besides your podcast, you know what's your what's the best place to find you too, and, besides your podcast, you know what's your. What's the best place to find you on social media or your website?

Masha Goins:

So everything is Masha Goins mashagoinscom. I'm Masha Goins on Instagram, and I'm Masha Goins on LinkedIn and Facebook too, so you can find me everywhere as Masha Goins, and come and connect with me. I'd love to connect with you.

Carrie Saunders:

Great, so I appreciate you being on our show. Thank you so much, masha, for being an excellent expert, and I'm going to be re-listening to this one for sure, because I feel like you had some great money mindset and business tips and just really general mindset tips in general too, that I think are going to really help the entrepreneurs listening in.

Masha Goins:

Thank you so much for having me.

Carrie Saunders:

Wasn't that such a great episode with Masha Goins? She had such wonderful advice for us to keep us out of burnout, to help create that reoccurring revenue and constant income, and to really find joy in our businesses again. So, no matter whether you're an online entrepreneur, business coach or a traditional e-commerce provider, I feel like her tips will really help us get out of that hamster wheel and really make sure we have joy in our business again. If you'd love this podcast, make sure to rate and review it on your favorite podcast app, and we will see you next week.