Finding Your Voice: From Blinking Cursor to Compelling Copy

Have you ever stared at a blinking cursor, knowing what you want to say… but not quite sure how to say it in a way that actually connects with your audience? 

Today’s episode is packed with gold, especially if you’ve ever wondered how to make your copy feel more you—more clear, more compelling, and more human. 

I’m joined by Jill Pavlov, a copywriter, brand strategist, and improv coach who helps entrepreneurs stop sounding like everyone else and start sounding like the best version of themselves. She’s got a background in comedy, and a no-fluff approach to messaging that truly resonates. 

Whether you’re writing a sales page, planning your next launch, or finally trying to get your About page to not sound like a resume—this is the conversation you didn’t know you needed. 

Connect with Jill Pavlov

Jill Pavlov is a copywriter, brand strategist, and improv coach who helps entrepreneurs say what they actually mean—clearly, cleverly, and with a voice that sounds like them on their best day. 

With a background in comedy and training from The Second City, Jill also leads improv workshops that boost confidence, clarity, and on-your-feet thinking for business owners, creatives, and teams. Her approach blends marketing savvy with the spontaneity of the stage, helping people show up more boldly—on the mic, in meetings, and online.

Whether she’s writing your homepage, coaching your delivery, or giving feedback on your tagline, Jill brings equal parts strategy and sparkle. If you need words that work (and a good laugh while you get them), she’s your girl.

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-pavlov-63aa7585/

Instagram - @comedyjill

Website - copy-pop.com

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Chapters

• 0:26 Writing Copy That Connects
• 2:21 Meet Jill Pavlov: Theater Kid to Copywriter
• 5:41 The Psychology Behind Effective Copywriting
• 10:15 Making Your Copy Sound More Human
• 15:18 Final Tips: Lean Into Your Superpower

Transcript

Carrie Saunders: 0:00

Have you ever stared at a blinking cursor, knowing what you want to say, but not quite sure how to say it in a way that actually connects with your audience? Today's episode is packed with gold, especially if you've ever wondered how to make your copy feel more you, more clear, more compelling and more human. I'm joined by Jill Pavlov, a copywriter, brand strategist and improv coach, who helps entrepreneurs stop sounding like everyone else and start sounding like the best version of themselves. She's got a background in comedy and a no-fluff approach to messaging that truly resonates, and it was such a wonderful conversation. So, whether you're writing a sales page, planning your next launch, or trying to finally write your about page and make it not sound like a resume, this is a conversation that you didn't know. You actually need Struggling to turn website traffic into real sales. You're not alone and you don't have to figure it out all yourself.

Carrie Saunders: 0:56

Welcome to Smarter Online Business, the podcast, for course. Creators, coaches and e-commerce entrepreneurs who want their websites to convert visitors into buyers without the tech overwhelm. I'm your host, Carrie Saunders, a website strategist and conversion expert with over 20 years of experience. Each episode delivers simple, proven strategies to help you generate more revenue and make your website, your smartest sales tool. Welcome back to the show Today. We have a special guest with us, and her name is Jill Pavlov. She is a copywriter, brand strategist and improv coach who helps entrepreneurs say what they actually mean clearly, cleverly and with a voice that sounds like them on their best day. So welcome to the show today, jill.

Jill Pavlov: 1:39

Thank you so much for having me, kari. I'm so happy to be here to be talking about some of my favorite things in the world improv and copy strategy and making people be the absolute best, most badass version of themselves.

Carrie Saunders: 1:55

And I love how you marry the two, the improv and copywriting. So tell us a little bit more about you and how did that come to be? And you know some background about you.

Jill Pavlov: 2:06

Yeah, it's such a crazy journey, right? You would never think like improv and copy doesn't quite connect, and somehow all of my combined experiences have really led me to this point. I've been a theater kid since before I could talk I was singing, I swear. So I took my first acting lessons when I was in fifth grade. That's where I learned about improv and I was a theater major through college.

Jill Pavlov: 2:33

Right out of college I got into entertainment reporting and that's where I really learned even more about leaning into your confidence, leaning into your power, also the power of being concise in your messaging, because when you interview a pop star who just keeps rambling and rambling, you learn very quickly that no matter how famous someone is, they can still be very boring.

Jill Pavlov: 2:56

So through my entertainment reporting I learned so much and somehow fell into the marketing world, where I learned what the word copywriter meant.

Jill Pavlov: 3:05

It did not mean trademarking or patents or anything in the legal world, like I had originally thought, and thank goodness, because you absolutely would not want me, jill Pavlov, near any of your legal documents if you value them. However, you do want me near your creativity, because that's what I bring to the table. So after all these years of being in theater, entertainment, reporting, marketing, I really started to realize that what a lot of us struggle with, and especially women, is being able to talk about what we do in a way that gets people excited for it. So that brought me to this aha moment of like wow. To be able to do that, you need A confidence to speak publicly, b, a lot of clarity surrounding your message and, c, just a much branding goodness. To really help entrepreneurs, but more specifically, female entrepreneurs, just feel so confident and proud to walk into a room, whether it's virtual networking, online networking, pitching to investors and saying what they bring to the table.

Carrie Saunders: 4:22

That sounds so valuable and as you're speaking there, I'm just like, wow, I just need to learn so much from you, because I, as a female, sometimes it can be really hard to have that confidence to be able to speak up, and I'm a female engineer with two engineering degrees, so I was like the odd ball in college. So you know, it was sometimes hard for me to speak up, even though, like the guys didn't bother me at all. Like I I could care less that I was in a room full of guys. I was such a tomboy as a kid. But it's still hard to sometimes say your opinions, especially depending upon, I feel, like also your background as a child, like how, what, what happened to you as a child. Like I know, for me I have a lot of childhood trauma that makes it hard for me to speak up. So I bet that you can help ladies like that also get past that and really speak what's on their mind and communicate better.

Jill Pavlov: 5:15

Absolutely. I mean, all of this probably stems from my own childhood trauma as well. Even though I was in theater at a young age, the stage was really the only place that I felt allowed to take up space. Like one of my dad's favorite like funny Jill stories is about him watching me in first grade, like let all these kids budge in front of me in line and I didn't say anything because I didn't want to ruffle any feathers. I was the kid in middle school who was afraid to sneeze in class because I didn't want to make a noise. Feathers I was the kid in middle school who was afraid to sneeze in class because I didn't want to make a noise and have people look at me. So there was some sense of not being worthy of people's attention that I had to really get past.

Jill Pavlov: 5:57

And you say you're in an industry that's very heavily male-dominated, as a lot of us are, even just being in the entrepreneur community. There's far more male entrepreneurs than female entrepreneurs and there's something about males I think it's rooted in society and what they tell us where they are not afraid to take up space Like they are not. Women are told to shrink themselves. If you've ever sat on a crowded bus. If you're next to a woman, you'll notice she's like this If you're next to a man. There's a reason that the word manspreading exists because they're not afraid to take up space in the physical, in the literal. It's just how we've been taught as a society. So women are taught to be seen, to not be heard. This is what is ingrained in us. It's not just my childhood trauma or your childhood trauma. It's a collective, societal childhood trauma, and it sucks because, as women, we have brilliant ideas that are just being forgot about or we don't even bring them up because we're afraid and we need to take our power back Absolutely.

Carrie Saunders: 7:01

I completely agree, and we can even like translate this into what we put on our websites and in our messaging too, because I feel like when we're, when we have a hard time speaking up verbally, that can come across also in written form, and I know you help with copywriting and things like that as well. So I know some people are like kind of blurry on what copywriting is. They kind of know what it is, but they really don't. So let's transition into the copywriting part. How do you, what exactly is it, and how do you connect it to your branding and marketing and make it more of a holistic thing and more confidence behind it? Because it sounds like you would bring the confidence to behind all that.

Jill Pavlov: 7:43

Yeah, absolutely. Copywriting is in its most simple form. It's the words that you use in your advertising your digital advertising, your print advertising, all that stuff. But that's like a really dumbed down form of what copywriting is. At a higher level, copywriting is about persuading your audience to take the action that you want them to, and when I say that, I don't mean that in an icky way. This isn't like we're trying to manipulate people to do something. We're just trying to show them how much they need whatever it is that we're selling.

Jill Pavlov: 8:20

And so, with copywriting, you really want to be very intentional about the words that you say. You need to be concise, because people aren't going to read a bunch of fluff, but you also really need to use your words to paint a picture. A lot of people want to make social posts or on their website and just talk about we have these features or this is what we do. This is why we are great, and they're forgetting to put the customer or the client into the story. They're just talking about them, them, them, which, yes, I'm sure you have like amazing stuff that you sell, but unless your customer feels like they're part of your story, it's not going to land with them. So you have to paint the picture for the customer of what their life looked like before and what their life will look like after they work with you or use your product or whatever it is. And that's the magic of copywriting is using these words, these hooks, these calls to action which is when you say comment or like or whatever it is to get people to become part of your story.

Jill Pavlov: 9:26

Copywriting essentially just comes down to connection and conversation. People want to make copywriting out to be really difficult, which it is. It's not easy, otherwise we wouldn't be paying people to do it for us. But at the end of the day, it's really just humans having another conversation with other humans. We're just conversing with each other. We're not selling each other. We're talking to each other to find out do you need me and how can I help you? We don't have to overcomplicate it.

Carrie Saunders: 9:57

And that's a lot of what we talk about on the podcast too. On other episodes that are even just my solo episodes and I talked to the fact that we need to be having a conversation with our potential customer on our website and we need to be talking about those benefits and really connect with them, because that's what one makes a better customer relationship with the business, but it also makes them feel seen and heard in a natural, good way, not in a manipulative way as you said. We don't want to be that type of salesperson, but we want to make sure that we are letting people know what benefits we have, because our businesses are a blessing to others when we solve their problems or bring them joy, and I like to try to remind our entrepreneurs to listen, to hear is we're selling to be a blessing, and I hear that in your message too.

Jill Pavlov: 10:59

Yeah, absolutely. A coach that I've worked with always says that selling is service, and when you come from it, at that point it doesn't really even feel like selling anymore. And it feels like selling when you're talking to someone who's not maybe your ideal client and you have to push them on it and in that case you may just have to let them go. They're probably not right for you. But when you're talking to someone who feels like a really good fit for your product or service, it does feel like helping them versus selling them, and that's what makes it natural, that's what makes it authentic and there's a lot of patience that goes into it.

Jill Pavlov: 11:34

Right, because you can't just be like hey, I saw that you liked my post. Here's my link to join my program. We want to be quick because we don't have a lot of time. A lot of us are one woman operations. We want to be quick, but you have to take that extra time to get personal with it and talk to people, because that's the only way that you're really going to find out what they need. You can't assume what they need.

Carrie Saunders: 11:58

Well, and I actually read something the other day that was like you know, sometimes we try to sell to people who aren't ready to be sell sold to. They're trying to gather information first, and so I think I think that's what I hear, some of what you're saying there, and when we're using our words on our website too. You know, we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but there's a bit of psychology behind it. So how do we ethically work in that solid, that psychology behind it? So how do we ethically work in that psychology behind our copywriting?

Jill Pavlov: 12:25

Yes, my last name is Pavlov, for a reason For anyone listening that doesn't know the significance of the last name, pavlov. Dr Ivan Pavlov was a psychologist who studied human conditioning, and I love that, because copywriting, essentially, is just conditioning our customers. We're conditioning them to see our email address and know that it's going to be a fire email, not something that we want to delete. We're conditioning them to know that if we post something, it's something that they're going to read because time and time again we give them value. So there's a lot of psychological triggers that you can use to kind of provoke emotion or action in people. I would say one of my favorite of those is social proof, because I don't know about you, but I hate parting with my money. I like to keep my money. So if I'm going to make a big purchase, like working with a coach or something like that, I'm going to do my homework, and part of that homework is feeling assured that the money that I'm spending is going to get me the results that I want to get. And that happens by reading other people's testimonials. Before I buy anything on Amazon, I look at their reviews. Have people been returning this? It's such a natural thing when you go to a restaurant, you probably go on Yelp and look up their reviews. So when you can provide proof which comes in the form of, like, testimonials or, um, you know people joining your workshops, when you can show people that other people have been there and worked with you or bought your product and they've gotten the results, that's when people start to trust you and that credibility builds and they feel a little safer about giving you their money. So social proof is really huge. It creates a lot of authority.

Jill Pavlov: 14:11

And then urgency urgency and FOMO, fear of missing out. And again there's a really easy way to slide into unethical and icky with FOMO and urgency. Like if you're saying we only have one day left of the sale, but really you don't, well, that's icky. Don't lie. We don't ever want to lie with any of the psychological triggers, but there is a way to like really naturally trigger someone's FOMO in a way that's like, man, I really do need this and I don't want to miss out. Other people are getting results. I want results too. And again, that that's not icky, because at the end of the day, we're just trying to help people get results and we need to convince them that they're going to get those results. If you know that you can help someone, it's, it's a service again.

Carrie Saunders: 14:56

So do you have any other tips for like psychology? How can we work in psychology a bit, because I know that that can really especially if done right and done ethically, you know, that can really help convey what our products or services can do for the person and how they can benefit them so that they can make a good, informed decision on there. And I mean really. I think that copywriting and psychology behind it and all the things that we're talking about is helping the potential customer make an important decision so they can make the best decision for them. So what are some other little tips that we can add in some psychology there?

Jill Pavlov: 15:33

Yeah Well, I always take tips from being a theater person and being an actress. And to be an actress, when you jump into a role, you have to figure out what that character's motivations are. You have to figure out what makes them tick. So I do that anytime I'm writing copy. I put myself in the role of the customer, the ideal client, and think what would I want to hear, what would bring me value, what would make me want to buy or part with my money? It's really about putting yourself in that other person's shoes and you have to be really honest with yourself when you do that. Right, you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes and be like, yeah, if I saw this post of mine, I think it's amazing, because I'm amazing and I don't think a lot of us look at ourselves that way. We probably go the opposite. We're probably like I suck, I suck. So you have to meet yourself in the middle and be really honest about who you are and like the quality of copy that you're putting out and you know, take your ego out of it a little bit Really, like, think as the customer, like, leave no parts of you. Think as the customer and be like would I respond to this email, really put yourself there and, if not just like, go piece by piece. What as an ideal client do I really really want? I don't want the features, I want the benefits. Like you said, I want the results. What am I getting you want to touch?

Jill Pavlov: 16:55

This is why it's so important to really truly know your ideal customer, and I actually probably didn't do this well enough until recently. This year I dove in and this is where ChatGPT also is, and we haven't really brought it up that much. But this is where ChatGPT can become an amazing thought partner for you. I will never get on record and say copy-paste what ChatGPT says as far as copywriting goes, but I will 100% go on record and say that ChatGPT can be one of the best thought partners ever. So talk to it about your ideal customer and what you're doing and get a really solid profile. Go deep on those questions and from there it becomes a lot easier to write your copy, because that's when you'll really know what it is that your customers are truly, truly looking for.

Carrie Saunders: 17:41

Well, I've actually done that.

Carrie Saunders: 17:42

I think it's like two years ago or maybe one, I started using ChatGPT to really get a good idea of who my ideal customer is, even though we've been in business over 20 some years.

Carrie Saunders: 17:52

You know, I kind of fell into the business and it happened on accident and I didn't really have to market it until the past five years or so. So I did use ChatGPT for that and I was amazed especially if you prompt it properly how much it can come up with and all the things I read. I was like, yeah, that totally makes logical sense, but I wouldn't have thought about it without having that conversation with chat GPT. It's actually one of the things we do in our course, that we have here at our business, and I actually have been using chat GPT for the past year or so a lot when I'm brainstorming and I know you touched on, you know you don't really want to copy and paste chat GPT for your writing, but what would be the appropriate way to use chat GPT when you're trying to do writing, when you're trying to do copywriting and trying to show your voice a bit better and talk to your ideal customer better?

Jill Pavlov: 18:45

Yeah, it's ChatGPT. Its outputs are only as good as its inputs. So if you're having a I don't know why yarn is the first thing that came to my mind today. But if you're having a yarn sale for your craft business, you don't just want to put into ChatGPT. I am having a yarn sale for my craft business, write me an email. That's a horrible prompt.

Jill Pavlov: 19:21

Chatg GPT has to get to know you just like a real copywriter, would you know? I mean, when I work with clients, I would say it takes me a good two to three months to really nail down a brand voice, because everyone's voice and their nuances are so different. Chat GPT isn't any different. It needs some time to kind of pick up on like oh no, I don't like using the word bad-ass, oh, but I do love using the word diva. Let's use diva at any chance we can get.

Jill Pavlov: 19:46

It needs time to process those things and it needs strategy. You have to give ChatGPT the strategy because otherwise ChatGPT we have to remember it's a robot, so it takes everything that you say very literally and it's not just going to come up with an email strategy because you say write an email. If you use the AIDA framework, which I teach, which is attention, interest, desire, action. That could be a good prompt to put into ChatGPT. Use the AIDA framework in an email about my yarn sale going out to makers who specialize in crocheting baby onesies. Get specific with ChatGPT and that's how you're going to get the best outputs and always go through and re-humanize it. There's hardly ever going to be an area where you can take copy and directly paste it. You're always going to have to go through and edit for humanness.

Carrie Saunders: 20:47

And speaking of humanness, I find that even if I'm not using chat GPT, sometimes when I'm trying to write something I feel too formal to you know, I'm writing to my English teacher too, kind of robotic ish. So how do we make our copy a bit more human too? Because that's part of being a good copywriter and having good copyright on our webpages.

Jill Pavlov: 21:08

Yeah, say it out loud. Having good copyright on our webpages. Yeah, say it out loud. Like sometimes, I'll.

Jill Pavlov: 21:17

If you say it out loud, you realize how stiff it sounds. You're like, oh, I would never say that in real life. So then try to think about well, how would you say it in real life and then write that? It's like if you were going to say like um coming with an example, like um coming with an example like unleash your fullest.

Jill Pavlov: 21:31

Unleash your fullest potential in your business, I would never walk up to someone and say like, hey, I really want to help you unleash your fullest potential. I can't even say it, so of course, I would never say it, but I might come up and be like hey, I noticed that you have a really strong brand and I feel like I could really help you take it to the next level by like making your message even stronger, something like that. It's more specific, it's more personal, it sounds more normal. So just talk it out loud and don't be afraid to get messy with it, like I just got really messy and sloppy and like I wasn't embarrassed for one second about tripping over my words, because it's a normal thing that humans do. So we have to remember it's okay to get messy and it's okay to fail and just talk it out and something natural will come from it.

Carrie Saunders: 22:18

When I feel like the tripping up your words kind of helped. You realize, you know, of course it was an example that wasn't a good one, but you know, it's kind of a natural way to say oh yeah, this doesn't make sense for me to say this verbally. So I love that simple tip of just literally saying it out loud. Maybe go in a closet or your bathroom if you're embarrassed to say it out loud. But, like you know, say it out loud. I'm going to use that tip for sure, because I know that. You know, when we get busy it's so easy to not like double check things like that to make sure it sounds human, it sounds like you.

Jill Pavlov: 22:51

It's so easy to miss that step, it's so easy because, again, we are so busy Like some of us are one person operations and you know, sometimes you just want to get that email out the door but we forget that if you turn off people with your copywriting, it's so hard to get them back, like you don't want to have people unsubscribe to your emails because they'll probably never subscribe again. So it is real easy to just copy paste and feel like you got it off the to-do list. But you just have to remember that sometimes you might be doing yourself more harm than good when you might save yourself a few minutes but you might lose yourself some future customers.

Carrie Saunders: 23:31

Yes, because you basically would be losing their trust, and trust is hard to gain back. It's easier to gain trust initially than to regain it later, so I think that's a really good point there. Yeah, so are there any final tips that you'd like to give us on copywriting or improv, or how do we marry the two together to really make this a much better experience for our customers? Because that's the ideal thing that we want to do in our messaging on our website and our emails and our social medias. We want to make it a better experience and make it feel like you and I are sitting here just talking to each other. Even though it's virtually, we're having a human conversation. So how, what are some last minute tips that you would give us for that?

Jill Pavlov: 24:12

Yeah, you actually said it at one point was is that people want to be seen, and that's so true.

Jill Pavlov: 24:17

When you remember that your customers at the end of the day, they really just want to be seen for the problems or the pain points that they're having, it leads the conversation in a very different way. So I would just always lead with making the customer or potential client feel good, feel safe in your care and lean into your superpowers. We all have them. One of mine is making people feel safe, because I'm such a goofy dork that I think people just are like okay, I can be goofy and silly too, and I know that that's one of my like. Okay, I can be goofy and silly too, and I know that that's one of my superpowers, so I lean into it. We definitely we, like I said, everyone that's listening to this. You're here for a reason and so I'm assuming that you do have a superpower and you may or may not know it yet, but whatever it is, lean into that with your messaging and it'll just naturally. Your magic will naturally follow.

Carrie Saunders: 25:14

I just I love that message. I love the vibe that you give behind all your messaging. I think it's just so genuine and so hopeful to others. So if people listening want to learn a bit more about Jill and find you on social media, what would be the best ways to get ahold of you?

Jill Pavlov: 25:25

Yeah, you can connect with me personally on Instagram. I'm at comedy Jill and my website is copy-popcom, where you can learn about all my different improv workshops and copywriting programs and just see some really wild pictures of me where I pretended to be a pop star.

Carrie Saunders: 25:44

That's pretty awesome. It sounds like you're such a fun person to be around. I just love having you on our podcast today.

Jill Pavlov: 25:50

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

Carrie Saunders: 25:54

Wasn't that such a refreshing conversation. I had so much fun learning from Jill and learning more about her too. She reminded us that good copy isn't about sounding polished, it's about sounding real. It's about connecting with the people you're meant to serve by saying what you actually mean in a way that actually lands. If writing has ever felt like a struggle, I hope today's episode gives you the permission to simplify, to bring more of yourself into your words and to trust that clarity is strategy. As always, you'll find all of our links at our show notes for today's podcast episode and, if you're loving the show, we would be so grateful if you would rate and review us on your favorite podcast player or Apple podcast. That helps spread the word to other entrepreneurs just like you who may need our messaging, and we will see you next week.