Krystel Clear

Narcissism, Untangled with Dr. Kathy Tolleson

• Krystel Beall • Season 2 • Episode 27

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Ever been charmed by someone who later made you doubt your memory, your needs, or your sanity? We go straight to the heart of narcissism—beyond the buzzword—and map the spectrum from overt to covert to malignant, revealing how early overindulgence or deep neglect can shape an empathy deficit that ripples through families, workplaces, and love lives. With Dr. Kathy Tolleson back in the studio, we translate clinical nuance into everyday patterns you can actually spot: love bombing that feels like fate, gaslighting that fogs your reality, and rage that erupts when control slips.

We talk about why addicts often display narcissistic behaviors, how recovery can clarify what’s trait versus substance-driven, and why true narcissistic personality disorder resists accountability. You’ll hear how narcissistic parents can look like heroes while kids are small, then turn critical when those kids individuate—and how that dynamic plants people-pleasing, perfectionism, or chronic rebellion in adult children. We ground it in practical tests: do you have a voice and are you truly heard; does conflict lead to compromise or punishment; and when you set a boundary, does the relationship stabilize or spin?

This conversation is a guide and a guardrail: tools to identify red flags, frameworks to plan a safe exit, and resources to rebuild confidence and community. From differentiating overt charm from covert self-pity, to navigating divorce with minimal collateral damage, to protecting your prefrontal cortex so empathy and judgment can lead again—consider this your map out of the maze. If you’ve felt crazy, you’re not; if you’ve felt small, you won’t stay that way. Subscribe, share with someone who needs clarity, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway so others can find this support too.


Thank you for joining me today. Please know that this podcast and the information shared is not to replace or supplement any mental health or personal wellness modalities provided by practitioners. It’s simply me, sharing my personal experiences and I appreciate you respecting and honoring this space and my guests. If you find my content relatable, please feel free to like, share and subscribe. Have a beautiful day full of gratitude, compassion and unconditional love.

Setting the Stage: Narcissism Today

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to this episode of Crystal Queer, everyone. Thanks for being here. I am excited. We have a returning guest, Third Time's a Charm, for Dr. Kathy Tollison, made her way to Sarasota to be with us today. And we have a really fun conversation lineup.

SPEAKER_03

So thank you. Yes. When Crystal asked me to talk about our subject, I was wondering how many days we had.

SPEAKER_02

I know. Or lifetimes or exactly. So yeah, I don't know how fun actually it's going to be. I refer to it as fun, but insightful. So, you know, the word narcissism is thrown around so much these days. And it's kind of one of those words I don't really like to use because of that. It's trendy, you know, it's it's everywhere. But to me, from my perspective, what I've learned throughout my coaching with you, throughout my life journey, throughout the research and the healing and all the things is, you know, there's a there's like a core kind of I don't want to say motive to that, or like, but essentially narcissism is emotionally emotional unavailability, correct?

SPEAKER_03

Like it's one of the elements. One of the elements. One of the elements.

Narcissism as a Spectrum

SPEAKER_02

Kind of, I don't know. Let's just dive in. Just break it down for us. Like, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_03

The first thing I would say is it's very important to understand that narcissism runs on a continuum. It's it's not just all or nothing. There's varying degrees of narcissism. There's different types of narcissism. There's what we call malignant narcissism, which can be very wicked and um very extremely self-serving and really damaging to other people, which is part of where we get narcissistic personality disorder, which is a clinical diagnosis.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

And um, but a lot of times people will have narcissistic tendencies in area, but I you you can't just label that, well, they're a narcissist. Right. And I think that's the term we throw around and we label people in in a wrong way. Um, but uh, you know, the different, there's like I said, overt narcissism, there's covert narcissism, and um, and they're different. And like I said, even in that, there's different levels of narcissism.

SPEAKER_02

Just like a spectrum, just like anything else.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, like yeah, like autism spectrum. It's not all or nothing. And so I think too many people maybe have someone who's immature or um maybe a little selfish, and right away they're a narcissist. And that's not necessarily true.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

Roots: Overindulgence vs. Neglect

SPEAKER_03

But at the core of narcissism is an inability to have empathy for other people. They have they have trouble putting themselves in the shoes of another person of how they might feel and what they might need. And it's very, it's an egocentric world. I always say that, you know, every every teenager goes through a narcissistic stage, you know, because they're very egocentric. It's all about them, it's not about what your schedule is needs, or, you know, I wonder how mom and dad would feel about that. It's it's about me. But as we mature, we mature out of that and or should. Right. But when there's core narcissistic traits in someone, they they don't. And that can be at different levels. And again, uh narcissism is a hard one for people who aren't narcissistic to understand. Because if you care about people and you you think about how they might feel, or um, you don't feel like, you know, you deserve, you know, narcissists a lot of times believe they deserve special attention, or you know, if um, had this like grandioso type. Yes, I'm I'm more important than everybody else, you know. Even even driving, you know, a lot of some of the road rage is actually narcissistic road rage. I'm the most important person, and where I need to go is the most important place, you know. So there's again, there's all kinds of different levels of it, but I think part of what people need to know is that it it comes from two different spectrums, which is very interesting, is and it it stems from early childhood, really, the roots, true narcissism lies in in those roots. And there's two sides of the spectrum. One of it is they were, you know, they might have been an only child, only grandchild, indulged, you know, or maybe, maybe the youngest baby came along later. Um, they got what they wanted all the time. Nobody told them no. They just are the overindulged narcissist. And then you have the one who their ego at a young age was extremely neglected. They didn't get the attention, they didn't get the care, they didn't get the emotional connection that would cause them to care about another person because they weren't cared about, their needs were not in concern, so they don't really know how to have a concern and care about another person. And so it's two opposite extremes. But um, and with narcissism, again, from the mental health perspective, it is like one of the hardest things to treat because they don't ever think they have the problem. Because if they own the problem, their own ego is too fragile. Um, you would look at a narcissist who can, especially the the um overt, they they can walk in a room, they can charm everybody, everybody loves them. Uh you know, they can, you know, just be the most wonderful person. And um, you would think, well, they don't have a fragile ego. But if there's that narcissism there, they really do because they have to have that attention. You know, some um people are get confused because they like, well, he but he's such a good person, or she's such a good person, and you know, she helps all of these um, you know, foundations or sits on boards or whatever. And you can, whether you have money or not, no money, all in between, uh a narcissist can look altruistic, but that's just it. They want to look that right.

SPEAKER_02

They they feel like they want to play the role on to be on the stage, they need to get the accolades, they need the awards, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Especially the overt uh narcissists. They if they weren't patted on the back for what they did, they won't be doing it, you know.

SPEAKER_02

And and it's I feel like I'm like opposite of that when it comes to some stuff like that. Sometimes it's like uncomfortable for people to like dote on you too much when you're doing things that are just from yes, just to help someone and just from your heart and things like that.

Overt vs. Covert vs. Malignant

SPEAKER_03

Like awkward, but um, narcissists will learn that when I do these certain things, people think I'm wonderful.

SPEAKER_02

So they do those things. It's really interesting because when our youngest son started, kind of like kindergarten this year, um, we were talking about the difference between like traditional school and this alternative type school that he's going to. And this alternative type school, they're building community, they're giving them, you know, challenges, letting them guiding them to find the solutions on their own. Whereas in traditional, this masculine traditional society wherein it's all like you're always seeking the reward, the pizza party, the the good grades, the honor roll, the this, it's like it's all about the accolades. But the way she explained it was brilliant because it's like if we're always seeking the reward, we don't like we we take the meaning away from the action of doing the right thing or or learning something. Like learning doesn't matter, it's the grade that matters.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. You know, and am I better and right?

SPEAKER_02

So it's like in in this, it just made me think of that because it's like the behavior doesn't matter. It's like I just want the reward.

SPEAKER_03

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

And so tell us kind of break down if you can what the difference between the different types are.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

You said malignant, you said covert, you said over.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so malignant goes into like the um narcissistic personality disorder. The extremes. And they are, you know, they're like um, if you've ever heard of Bernie Madoff, who just ripped off a huge amount of people with investment, millions, probably billions, it got close to, of money. Uh they're they're malignant in this terms of the damage that they can and will do to people and totally justify it. And, you know, a lot of times really blame their victims. Um and so that's like on the highest spectrum. The covert, like I said, there, and and let me explain this too. We talked about, you know, uh with gender, there are still more male narcissists in our society than female. Um, it used to be like maybe like 2080 on that. I feel like it's way higher than that. Well, right now females in the last like 20, 30 years has really climbed in the number of female narcissists that there are. And, you know, there can be a number of different factors to that. Um, we I think women have taken back their power in some ways, but it sometimes, you know, again, if you have other issues, you can take that too far. Right.

SPEAKER_02

And that's actually makes me think. So so something popped up when you're saying that. And before we get too far, I want to ask. So if you think of the past 20, 30 years, what's happened? More women have gone back to work.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

And we're more working moms now. So it's not always dad being gone or dad traveling and mom being home and having dinner ready for us and being there to be the nurturing people in the home. So I don't know, I just thought crossed my mind like maybe does that have something to do with it? Maybe it's more of like well, and I think it's the validation, like we've talked about similarly.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and a lot of children haven't been getting as much of the nurture, the true nurture that's a lot of people. That's what I mean. Yes. And um, so there's been an increase. I mean, again, social media, our whole society, especially America. America is one of the highest levels of narcissism. But, you know, our whole, you know, stars and sports figures and you know, idolization of all of that is um, I think has also increased that whole thing.

Culture, Gender, and Social Rewards

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's just a very ego-driven society that we live in here. Yeah. It's like this grandioso, like more is better. And, you know, I mean, you and I have talked about this a lot. Like the more we accumulate in our life, the less I want, and the less the less I feel fulfilled. So it's like, I'm even in a place right now, I want to kind of simplify because I don't want to be the mom that's working so much that my kids aren't getting the nurturing that they need. I don't want to, you know, yes, I want to give back, but if I have the opportunity to not have to be that, and you know, and taking your power back too. You said that. And it's like, so I see that a lot kind of in this empowerment world. You know, power means something very different to a lot of people. Yes. Exactly. So the way we're talking about it is people want like power, they want to be in control, they want to, you know, that's not being empowered.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And that to me, I think is the biggest difference because my girlfriends and I were like, oh, you know, like, you know, own your power. And then I'm thinking to myself, some people think of this way differently than than we do. Yeah. When it comes to this.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and I think too, even in, you know, we have such a high-level um numbers of divorced parents who, again, a lot of times they're having to try to buy their kids or they don't dare discipline them enough because they don't want, you know, a child who doesn't even want to come and see them because they discipline or different things. So I think there's a lot of different factors. But the thing is, it is definitely on the increase in our society, and it has uh increased the stats for women narcissists. And, you know, I come across a lot of both. And um give us an example of like um Let me do oh go ahead. Can I do covert? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yes. Because I think covert is probably one of the least understood, but coverts have a quieter personality, they don't have to come in and be the center of attention, even though they secretly would like to be, but they never were. A lot of times they they maintain a a victim status in the sense of, you know, well, I could have been great at at sports, but you know, my coach just overlooked me. Or I could have been, you know, I could have been, you know, probably a great singer, but my mom didn't ever take me to singing lessons and no one ever supported me. So they still hold a sense of their own greatness, but also were never able to really attain it. So they're very they're like blaming it on blaming it on others, very much a victim, but still some of the commonality, they they're not able to take ownership. And you know, if someone says something to them, uh with the the the covert, let's say in a relationship, some one challenges the covert and they're like, Oh, you're you're crazy. I'm not that da-da-da-da. Look at I did this, this, this, this. They'll give a whole litany. And with the overt, or I mean the covert, what would happen is if you say something like, you know, you I really think you have a problem in this area, or I think you need to work on this, it would be, yeah, because I'm I'm just the most terrible person, and you know, and I can never live up to what you want. And, you know, I it's like poor, pitiful me. Poor pitiful me a lot of times. And they will they will go overboard the other way, you know, to get the sympathy, because then the person will come back and say, No, that's not what I meant, and you're really wonderful, and all these get the attention, they just get it in that kind of like in a uh a more passive, they're they tend to be a lot more passive aggressive, okay, and they're very, you know, they'll be more passive about things.

SPEAKER_02

More like undermining comments here and there rather than just blatant.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Yes, yes, and um, and they may even um be like self-sacrificing in a way, but self-sacrificing in a way that I need everybody in the whole family to know how much I I sacrificed for them, you know. So then everybody goes, Isn't isn't she great? Isn't mom great? Yeah. Look at what she did.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

Covert Traits and Victim Posturing

SPEAKER_03

You know, okay. Or, you know, but back back and forth. And so it um yeah, so the the a little difference, and you know, there's a lot of things you can study online nowadays. I think that's another reason. Um, because I I've worked with people and it's like there are certain things in life, only the puzzle piece of narcissism fits for that person to get a light bulb to be able to get well. Okay, because different degrees of narcissism will cause damage to different degrees in the people around them. Okay. So I can have someone as an adult come in and they're still trying to figure out, you know, why didn't my dad love me and why do I have so much and why don't I have any confidence in why am I? And when they start talking about their father, I mean, to me, all the red flags. I mean, this guy, he he might have been, you know, the greatest doctor at the hospital, the chief of police, the principal at the school, but narcissism is just screaming, you know. And when we start talking about it and they start researching and looking at it, they get that light bulb and it's like, oh, it it wasn't me. They they had a malfunction, they could never give it to me, but they always blamed me why they couldn't give it to me. Right, you know, and it it's like that puzzle piece sometimes or in a marriage, you know, um, especially with the covert. The the overt can be difficult too.

SPEAKER_02

But did you describe the overt yet?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, the overt are the ones you kind of can recognize them. They are, you know, they can walk in a room and charm everybody, everything's about them. They they need the accolades. They need, you know, if they're gonna go somewhere, they need to be the prettiest or the sharpest or have the best car or so they're they're insecure. So yeah, their their ego is is extremely fragile, but you would never do it. And they're always touting what they just did, what what you know, if you say, Oh, I just came back from my trip to da da da. It's like you went to they all they won up in conversation all the time. They always won up, and a lot of times they will dominate the conversation, where the covert might, the overt might not do that as you know, in the same way. But a lot of times the the the the covert one still will be really good at getting conversation back to them, okay, you know, back to them.

SPEAKER_02

So do you feel like because I you know I can think of a handful of people throughout my lifetime that have had these narcissistic tendencies. I don't know if I've ever really had anyone that was like all in malignant, but definitely tendencies. Do you think it's possible? Because I feel like I feel like it is, but for someone to have narcissistic relationships in their lives, but not with other people. So say like a father or a mother-son relationship, but then the son has a decent marriage, or the daughter has a you know, great relationship with her kids, but she has a real you know, narcissistic relationship with her mother. Oh you know what I mean? Like it's yeah, people but people can have those tendencies towards someone that they have old wounds with, yes, but not but it's recognizing where the old wounds come from.

Recognizing Damage and Lightbulb Moments

SPEAKER_03

That's why I'm saying that you know, like helping someone get over divorce. Normal divorce is hard, but if you're divorcing a narcissist, it's hell. And so realizing that part of the reason that relationship never worked, part of the reason why the divorce was so hard, is because you're really dealing with a narcissist. And that's the puzzle piece. And and it's so hard for people who aren't to really wrap their head around that that somebody like just really doesn't have that empathy, that really can doesn't care. Now, a lot of times narcissists, like I said, will tend to learn, hey, when you go to a funeral and be be empathetic, you know, you need to show a little your your sadness. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Or if they have children, they can they can do that for their kids.

SPEAKER_03

To a degree, but they're they're looking at their watch when they can get out of there and how quick they can get out of there. What they're gonna do next. They're really not even they're not present. They're not really present. And the other thing, narcissists can look like really good moms and really good dads when their children are little, when they give them a lot of hero worship, when they they make them feel good about who they are. But where push comes to shove is when that child starts getting old enough to maybe challenge something or have diff different agreements or different opinions, and they don't just become kind of minimes, that's when pretty soon the the narcissistic mom or dad that relationship will really shift because they they can't handle that this person or they start pointing out like well, you know, mom, you always care about that more than I feel like you care about me or whatever. When they start challenging, that's when that relationship will will start distancing with the normal. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02

So instead of having the empathy and compassion and even excitement that your your child is individuating. Yeah. And so it's almost like those types of parents don't want their children to individuate, they want them to follow suit, they want them to go because a certain path that they have planned for them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I am the hero, I am the heroine. So I see everything for you. Right, and you should be, you should want to be like me and think like me and you know, make choices like I do. And I mean, uh again, a narcissist will cut off inheritances, you know, very, very easily because you're you're not you're not following and you you you've challenged me, you've questioned me. And so they will, you know, they can just cut someone out of their will very easily.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So what um, you know, it's interesting to me because, and I think it's I mean, it's definitely a huge thing to mention, like narcissistic tendencies, I mean, that's not a life sentence. People can take accountability for their life and be open to healing at any time if they're willing to face it and move forward. I mean, I've seen it happen, and I think it's really important, and something that we've talked about quite a bit, is like when you are using substances, especially alcohol, um, and you're under the influence or painkillers or whatever, like anything that's altering your state of mind and your prefrontal cortex and shutting that down, that's gonna shut down your empathy. So that's you, that's why domestic violence rates are so high. That's why people get in bar fights. That's why, you know, so so it really not only does it affect the limbic system, obviously, but when you're in relationships or you have, you know, or you witness relationships or your parents, or anyone who has been under, because I, you know, from my personal experience, I witnessed it, and I can't say that anyone uh probably a couple people in my family have some narcissistic tendencies, but mostly because of their substance abuse.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and that's one thing that I I always say every addict is narcissistic.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

Teens, Maturity, and Empathy Development

SPEAKER_03

They are, yeah, but it's about them and what they need in their egocentric, they're not really thinking about, well, you you need some time with me. They're thinking about how can I get to my next fix and when can I when can I have another drink or when can I go shoot up? Or um, you know, prescription drugs, the same thing.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, maybe it's not even just substances, maybe it's anything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it it when there's an addiction, yeah, they can be very narcissistic. I mean, uh a woman with a shopping addiction can, you know, drag her. I see some of them sometimes. These kids that are just drug around department stores or malls and everything, their Saturdays are drug around the mall and they're miserable. No, no, no, but if you put a lot of time outside, right.

SPEAKER_02

But if you have a shopping addiction or you know, those kind of things when it's sacrificing other people for what you need and what you want.

SPEAKER_03

Right. So everybody's narcissistic. Like I said, two different people can look both narcissistic and they both go through recovery, and one comes out of recovery, and there's not the narcissistic tendencies because they never really were the addiction made them, and another may come out and still have the same narcissistic tendencies. Okay. And the depending on the degrees, like you can have someone who maybe they picked up some narcissistic traits because of their family of origin and different things, and they can end up maybe working through some things and develop, but some of the core narcissism, like I said, it's the hardest to treat. It's they can learn some different behaviors, but the natural place of empathy and being able to really put yourself in others' shoes, it it it doesn't come instinctively. There's no passion. No, they can learn to parrot it to, so to speak. Right. And try to get it to understand what people want to hear. Right. But, you know, it so it just really depends on the degrees of that, how much that you can work on coming out of recovery. Again, the prefrontal cortex is critical because, you know, when when you talk about our limbic system, limbic system is all about our survival. And so a narcissist is if if they're really limbic, you know, and they haven't had that prefrontal cortex development, again, they're gonna they're gonna be fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, you know, and they're gonna be worried about their own survival. So we really that's part of our maturing, you know. That's why I say all teenagers, they're they're narcissistic, you know. But that doesn't mean they're gonna stay that way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think that it's important to emphasize, like, not in the way that they're totally manipulative and you know, that kind of thing. It's that, you know, I mean, they're evil. For example, it's like right. It's like, well, why can't you take me to the football game? Yeah. And it's like, well, because it's in two hours and I have plants, you know, it's those types of things. It's like they don't understand how much it's, you know, the parents have going on. They don't understand what may be going on with the younger siblings. They just kind of go through and you know, their brain is going through a pruning process. Right.

SPEAKER_03

And it's about them. And again, and not fully developed till robot 26, you know.

SPEAKER_02

And so that's when, you know, I always say, if that's when we form like most of our relationships, if you think of it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And like and so, you know, I always say you're gonna have to wait a little bit until you get that, mom. I I really appreciate, I really see what you did for the family, or you know, dad, uh, you know, you really sacrificed a lot that you you're not gonna see that from them, usually as a teenager. They have to be, but that takes the prefrontal cortex to be able to look and see what different things took, not just this is what I need right now. I I need you to get me to that football game. What do you mean you can't bring me? Right, you know, because they're just driven to get there, right?

Parenting Through a Narcissistic Lens

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So what would kind of the difference between or I guess I I think of it this way. So let's think of like different types of relationships with this. So a young child with a narcissistic parent, what does that type of parenting look like versus a young child with an emotionally unavailable parent?

SPEAKER_03

Well, a lot of times the narcissist will be the emotionally uh unavailable parent, but like well, I think um, like like let's say a a dad and a son, okay. The the narcissist dad is at his kids' game to be able to see them win, do the best. They might be the dad who berates the kid on the way home. You really should have caught that ball. We we we need to practice. What what was wrong? What was wrong with you? You weren't playing your best today, and um so not only emotionally unavailable, but sometimes abusive, abusive, yeah. Verbally abusive, you know, and you know, and and that can be done with kids that are are very young or all the way. Or if the parent, you know, the parent who um I'm going back to a dad, a dad who, you know, their garage, their car, they have a prize car, they're working on it. And and the child, well, dad, can I help you? Um no, I really, I really, you know, you might miss something. I I really, you know, I've I did I've got to work on it this today. And well, could I try dad? Well, if they do one thing wrong, they're they're out of there there because the car is part is more important and is part of the ego uh for the dad, then the son being able to help or learn.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I have a lot of projects I have to work on, and I don't always allow my kids to help. Like sometimes you just have to get it done though.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I yeah, that but that that's it it that depends on is that like the rule all the time or the way it is. You know, it's like the the mom who fashions herself as Martha Stewart, you know, and her her kitchen, her the food, uh all of that table, the home, everything, it it's not really livable. Right. And it's all about her, and it's all about how she entertains and how good her house looks. And and so it's not about these kids who just want to try to live there. Right.

SPEAKER_02

In a livable house. It's not a livable house.

SPEAKER_03

No, because it has to be perfect. Or I mean, I've talked to, I mean, I've worked with so many people of varying degrees, but it's like the yard. It was like the yard and what the neighbors thought, and everybody thought of the yard. And so even if they had like something special to want to go to, no, you have to mow the grass and it has to be to this specs, and you have to, you know, and not thinking, you know, this is a a 12-year-old who just wants to go on a play date with his friends and go to something special, but no, you got to do the yard because that's what what what that's what makes dad feel good about having the best yard in the neighborhood.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So it's about them, not about the kids. It's not about them, it's about them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and it always goes back. And then they can narcissists are really good at coaching it. Like, you know, what well when I was a kid, we had to do chores, and I'm just teaching you how to have a work ethic.

SPEAKER_02

So these people, I would assume, still try to parent their adult children.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like they understand that adult relationship.

Workplace Control and Sharing Credit

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, narcissists always knows what's the right thing and what was the wrong thing. And they have a very strong opinion on that, both overt or covert. And so, yeah, they will they will try to, you know, we've talked before about parent-child adult communication. They have a very difficult time adulting really with anybody. Even in the business world, they will tend to be, I I know better. Uh even if someone has a good suggestion, maybe in their business or whatever, they will they will take it, but a lot of times they won't give the other person credit and they will use it, but they'll do it from a more parental way instead of a teamwork like, hey, you know, Susie just had this great idea and I thought about it, and I thought it was really good. And they they don't do well at sh, you know, sharing credit. And um they uh, you know, they it's it's difficult for them to take information from other people. That that's why a lot of times they say, well, well, they should go to a counselor. They will decide they're smarter than the counselor, they will know more. They will tell the counselor, I've worked with someone not long, because usually, and then if the counselor starts challenging or getting close to touching anything in their fragile ego, they will immediately find ways to discredit leave not they they're like your maybe one to three time visits, and then they're out of there.

SPEAKER_02

Like, what causes that? I mean, it's deep wounds, like we said, like it's really deep lack of either, you know, love, affection, um, nurture, nurture, all of these things in childhood, or over also overindulgence, or overindulgence. So it's like, you know, the spoiled child that gets everything they ever asked for or something. But but also don't get the real stuff that they don't they get what they want, they don't get what they need.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, perfect. Yes, okay. There's a lot of that going on. Oh, there's so much.

SPEAKER_02

And I feel like that maybe has been why it's increased over time. Um, I mean, as a working parent, I can relate. It's like, you know, say you have a really busy week and then you go all out with your kids on the weekend, and it's like you pour all in and you do all the things and all the and then like you have really busy week, and then you go all in, and it's like, okay, but there needs to be balance there. Right.

SPEAKER_03

There needs to be more time during you have the divorce parents as like yeah, I can relate to that as well. You're gonna you're gonna have the world's greatest time here.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're the fun house versus the disciplinary house.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, instead of both kind of operating in balance, yeah. So then it's like, okay, I I just expect this, you know, and I expect if you know I throw a little tantrum or I mean you see these adults throwing tantrums at, you know, in airports because somebody told them no. Someone told them no, you know, or you know, or God forbid.

SPEAKER_02

Or someone didn't acknowledge their how much they worked or how much they did, or so I'm thinking back of like, you know, we've done the love languages, life languages, all the things. So if your love language is like words of affirmation, I don't please I'm just thinking about people listening to this right now thinking, oh my god, am I a narcissist? I really like when people tell me, like I'm sitting there thinking, like, oh my god, what have I done to my kids?

Addiction, Empathy, and Recovery Limits

SPEAKER_03

Am I most of the time, if you think, oh, maybe I might be a narcissist, you're usually not. You're usually not.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Um, but it's I mean it's funny because it's you know, we always self-diagnose ourselves in one way or another. Yeah. So it's just thinking of that, like, you know, if you're a words of affirmation person, like it's okay to want you know, like there's there's a difference. So tell us kind of thing. Help us kind of distinguish between and that's like this. This is why I think it's such a gray, trendy thing, because people hear things like this and they're like, oh, that's me, or that's my spouse, or that's my boy, you know, or that's whoever, that's my mom.

SPEAKER_03

It's really easy to diagnose somebody.

SPEAKER_02

You know, how do you distinguish like the difference? I guess.

SPEAKER_03

Well, like again, in my chair, a lot of times I can evaluate the difference is how much did that damage the other person?

SPEAKER_02

Right. Like how much have you sacrificed someone else or something else?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and how much how much damage did that really do to this other person? A lot of time is the degree of narcissism that was really happening, especially if, you know, as a child, teenage. I have a lot of adults when I start saying, you know what, what you're telling me, it sounds like your mom or maybe your dad or had a high level of narcissism. They're like, really? But everybody loved them. You know, especially the overt nerd nurses. They love, they're the ones they always, if they go out to eat, they pay for everybody. They always they will they Because it looks like grand gesture. Yes, and what a great guy. Or she she's so sweet, she just she just helps everybody, she does everything for everybody, but you try to live with her. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um yeah, and so like I said, usually if you're thinking, oh, maybe I'm a narcissist, you you're probably not, because narcissists, if you know, and the thing about narcissists, if they're challenged or you know, really uh poked in an area, they they have something that's called narcissistic rage. They will get enraged. You know, that's why like if a person ever starts trying to leave a narcissistic relationship, they are, you know, scorched earth a lot of times. It's like the words you talk to a divorce attorney and say, you know, I'm I need a divorce, but I think my spouse could be a narcissist.

SPEAKER_02

There's fees go through fees go up. Well, I mean, those are the ones that just spitefully burn you to the ground.

SPEAKER_03

And they don't, and they don't care how it affects the children.

SPEAKER_02

They they the ones that fight for custody, even though they've never done it.

SPEAKER_03

And they right, and they don't want custody. And I've I've had to live through some of those um with people, you know, I've worked with, and it's it's it's just so painful. I've I've just had somebody and actually um just last night, and again, should have been no reason, long-term divorce, no, no young children, no anything. It Florida, you know, 50-50 should have been cut and dry. Two and a half years of hell, and and him him being the one that wanted it, and a real long-term marriage, but two and a half years.

SPEAKER_02

So it's just another version of control. So you essentially just want the the control.

SPEAKER_03

And and and I and I had told I which is I called it every level.

SPEAKER_02

Which is like insecurity.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I called it every level. I would say, okay, now he's gonna do that. Oh no, he would never do that. He did, he did it. Okay, she had been very naive in a lot of things and was a real pleaser, real empath, always just tried to make him happy. Plus, she had had a very narcissistic father, and he wasn't her dad was a covert. I mean, an overt narcissist who was just really out there, and he was a covert.

SPEAKER_02

So let's talk about that because that's a big one. Usually, people who are empaths, yes, who are super highly sensitive, yes, who want to help and who want to fix, yes, naturally gravitate towards these types of relationships. Uh-huh. Very, very because they see the red flags and they see the tendencies, but they totally can they can fix them. Right. Right. It's like, why do we do this?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, because of the impasse. And in the beginning, again, the narcissist they will do what we call love bombing. And love bombing is, oh my God, I could never talk to anyone like I could talk to you. And love bombing is gifts.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, and do you feel like that's true sometimes though, too?

SPEAKER_03

Like, do you yes and no? Okay. That sometimes, yes, they just feel that empathy coming and they just suck it all up.

SPEAKER_02

Um, but sometimes they could I guess I guess what I'm trying to ask is do you think it's subconscious or do you think it's conscious? The narcissist part.

Divorce with Narcissists: Rage and Control

SPEAKER_03

Like if you I think a lot of it is is is subconscious. I don't think they're consciously doing that, but it's feeding them. It's feeds them. It's like we call it narcissistic supply. Okay. But all of a sudden, when you know you're feeling like, oh, I'm really helping this person and everything. And I'm not saying you're a narcissist to to want to do that, but then all of a sudden, when you're narcissist, or all of a sudden you need something. I I need this from you. And that doesn't, that's when then you're needy, then you're crazy, then you're you're needy, and what's wrong with you? And again, some of the terms, you know, gaslighting, making you feel crazy. Again, when I talk to somebody and it's just like I I I just feel like I'm crazy, you know. I know no matter what I do, it isn't right, you know, and um, they're always upset and and different things. Those are some things that that's why it it's so important for people who have had either high-level narcissistic parents or a narcissistic spouse to be able to really get some help afterwards because it does a number on them. It does a number on their self-esteem, it does a number on them being able to set boundaries, it does a number on uh on them of of just, you know, still feeling like, well, maybe there was something else I could I could have done.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and a lot of times these people also become, they have those tendencies because that's the behavior that's been modeled for them. Yes. They don't know any better. Right. Or they have one parent that wasn't and one parent that was, but if they spent more time time with the parent that was, then they think that this is how you treat people. This is what love looks like, this is what you know, this looks like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that's it's it's very insidious and it's different. Again, like the high-level, like we talk about narcissistic personality disorder. If you look it up, it will say that it's a form of mental illness. But it is it's very different than like schizophrenia or bipolar or you know, borderline personality. Um it's very high functioning, I think. Yes, and so they live amongst us. I mean, and you can have it, I mean, you can have it in every world, business world, you know. I I can I can watch political world, definitely. The the in the in the pulpits, you know, we have a lot of high-level big name, you know, uh, but they're narcissists, you know. And like I said, a lot of times you can start, you know, I've worked with it, studied it a lot, worked with some, and had some of my own personal experience with it. Um, that you know, um there there are and and even even narcissists when they get older they they even if they have life crises, a lot of times you think this life crisis, oh, this is gonna get them to really really change or they're gonna this is gonna be a wake-up call, not to a true defined narcissist. Right. It it it's not. There's a really good book that I recommend for people if you think that you may have had um a parent that was a narcissist, and it's called Children of the Self-Absorbed. And you know, it's a book. Yes, and it's a study related to the author again. I don't even remember.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, Children of the Self-Absorbed.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you can get it on Amazon. Okay. And um, and it's really interesting because for the child, there are two, and I've recommended it to a huge amount of people, and they're like, I get it. But usually the child of a narcissist will go one or two ways. They will be the very compliant, comp so compliant. People pleaser, people pleaser, everything, or they will be in rebellion, they will be defiant, and they can go in either one of those directions.

SPEAKER_02

But have a hard time in the middle, probably.

SPEAKER_03

I had someone that I recommended that book to, and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't give them, I should have given them this warning, but they were like they saw it and they really saw it in their parent, you know, and things like that. So they want to, they before we talked about it, they recommended it to the parent. And so the parent reads the book, but again, this is classic narcissists, you know. Classic narcissist is they have a conversation, no, oh my god, I can see where I really messed up some or anything. No, that I read that book, and then the conversation was all about that's why, you know, my stepdad was a narcissist. That's why I have so much problems, you know. No ownership of their own narcissism, no just turned the whole book into them, no, no apologies, no sorry, and no change in behavior.

SPEAKER_02

That's one thing I think that just from my own personal experience is like the sorries. There's no sorries. Yeah. Never an apology because nothing's ever their fault.

SPEAKER_03

Right. There's always a reason.

SPEAKER_02

There's always a reason. There's always a justification, there's always something. And that brings me to, and you you brought it up. So we have to we have to talk about it because again, it's another term that's thrown out there and tumbled around, and it's so trendy. Do you know what I'm gonna say? What?

SPEAKER_03

I'm not sure. Gaslighting. Oh, gaslighting, yeah. Well, yeah, that's just part of the vocabulary. What?

Gaslighting: Tactics and Examples

SPEAKER_02

Well give me an example of a gaslighting conversation. Well, okay. Say a stay-at-home mom and her husband, you know, say she goes shopping or she wants to go on a trip. Or, you know, what if her husband were to gaslight her? Say she's like, you know, she's with her kids all the time, she's doing all the things. Husband is provider of the family, because I've seen this actually quite a bit in my life and my peers and things like that. She books herself a girl's trip. So what is, you know, and so, you know, there's sabotage that can come along. There's not the ability to have financial freedom. There's, you know, conversations that would make her feel like she's doing something wrong, or who are you going with, or what are you gonna be there for? Right. You know, those types of things.

SPEAKER_03

And and gaslighting, gaslighting always has the element of you're really crazy. You didn't hear what you heard, you didn't see what you saw. That that wasn't what I meant. So, like in that case, it could have been like she tells him, and at the time he he may not even think that she's really gonna do the trip because a lot of times she does in our different things. And then she says, Oh, I've I've got that trip planned on going. Well, we didn't even talk about that. Well, yeah, we yeah, we did. We did last month. I mentioned it. Yeah, but I don't I don't even remember it. And you never brought it, and you never said for sure you're going. Okay. So are you are you know, we didn't have that conversation, and she's like, I know we had that conversation. No, we didn't, because I would have told you no, because I have an important, I have an important meeting and I can't be handling all of this right now. Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I feel like that again boils down to just not being present.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Just not being present.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, not being present, or maybe they were present, but they can they can just turn it and color it. So you start thinking, am I crazy? I thought I'm I I thought we had that conversation. Right. You know, or you know, it can be a conversation about um, let's say he he goes out and buys something, you know, really expensive and and it's she's like, well, you know, but we talked about that any, you know, we were gonna really, if it was a larger expenditure or whatever, we were gonna have a discussion and da-da-da-da. And then it can be, well, you know, you you never appreciate how hard I work, or you know, you don't ever think I deserve anything because of working.

SPEAKER_02

Or it's my money and because I'm working.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and it's my money. And, you know, we we never said for sure, you know, we just talked about having more conversation, but you would think that I would think that you would want that for me. And pretty soon, all of a sudden, she's the bad person for not wanting him to have it. The conversation that they were gonna part. Yes. And so that the gaslighting like turns it and it the deflects it where where where the other person really starts questioning their sanity, you know, in in terms of what they've heard, what they thought was communicated, what was really going on. I mean, and there's some I mean, there's some master, I mean, I know, you know, narcissists, I know uh men who I mean into sexual addiction, really unfaithful and you know and uh lied and covered it up for so long and just m made the woman feel like she was crazy. She was crazy. And all along she was feeling like there was somebody else. She was feeling like there were other things.

SPEAKER_02

No, I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I totally know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. But but but they gaslight them. No, I'm I mean, you know, I'm busy and you know, you know, I I've I've got to work late.

SPEAKER_02

And I just actually read a fiction, I've been reading fiction books. Just take myself away and I read a fiction book and I was like, I can't even finish this. This guy pisses me off. Like I it was like called Don't Let Me, Don't Let Him In my Lisa Jewel. And I'm like, I can't finish this. Okay. I was totally he had like four different lives and he was scamming all of these women and oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_03

That would be malegna. Oh, he was hardcore, it was crazy. Melingna. I don't know if you heard, I I mean, it was the most one of the horror stories. This was not too long ago where it all came out. I don't know if you heard it, it was in France, and this guy, he had an older wife, she was in her 60s, and he was drugging her at night and putting online for these men, other men, to come over and pay to have sex with his wife. Oh my god. She's unconscious, and I'm trying to remember her name, and and then videotaping it and then selling it online. And she it finally got uncovered. I mean, and she was going to the doctor for different like venereal stuff, everything, and he's like, Oh no, you're crazy, you know. She finally, she finally took him to when it all came out, she finally took him to court.

SPEAKER_02

That is so traumatic.

Malignant Extremes and Safety

SPEAKER_03

The most trauma, I mean, there were like I think 70 guys that they had um recorded. Yeah. Yeah. And who knows what else? Malignant narcissists. Can you imagine to do doing that to your wife who's in her 60s? In her sixties? She was in her sixties. Oh, I mean, not that I mean, but he was he was uh like people like Was he in her sixties? Yeah, she was shocked, her the the children were shocked, the neighborhood was shocked because he was just such a good guy. But he was he was a malignant freak show and a malignant narcissist. Yeah, it it was in France. I I don't remember the lady's name offhand now, but I I I I had to, you know, I dealt dove into a little bit and heard some interviews where she did, but she decided she was gonna get on this fan the the stand and she was gonna face him and these other men. Again, divorced him and yeah, well, good for her, but that's still so traumatic. Yeah, so traumatic, so just broken violating.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, that is the ultimate the person that you're supposed to trust the most with your I mean, how about those vows?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and that's honor and cherish, yeah. And that's that's how far a maligne, you know, malignant narcissists.

SPEAKER_02

Because they are just so absolutely brutal.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. And then try to, you know, spin it.

SPEAKER_02

Right, exactly. So what you know, what are some great resources? Because there's a like you said, there's a lot of this out there, and we we did use males as a lot of examples, but there are a lot of females. There are a lot of, you know, I what do you what do you recommend? Like, where do people start? Because some of these relationships can be very dangerous.

Empaths, Love Bombing, and Red Flags

SPEAKER_03

They can be dangerous, they're toxic. And I I think what I mean, YouTube has a lot of really good stuff on it. So on malignant, on overt, on covert, and but I would just start with like a simple what what does basic narcissism look like? What are the basics of narcissism? And um, you know, and and don't be quick just to label you know, just to totally label the world we live in though. We're quick to label everything, yeah, and or to use an excuse, excuse, you know, yeah, I'm the worst thing, I'll need a narcissist. Yeah, well, yeah, it it's not that simple. And and and again, I do know relationships that have where there has been evolution in it. Would I say that they like totally end up the most empathetic person? No. But that they can work out and they can have conversations, but there's a s there has to be a certain amount of an acceptance that I'm I'm not really good at that. Right. And help me, you know, and are working together that, you know, you can, you know, and and a lot of times for the family's sake, for each other, you know, sake, there can be, you know, work done to make it um, you know, livable. Right. But you also have to realize in that there are, you know, you can't, like I said, you can't squeeze a rock and get lemonade. You know, there's some things you just might not get, but what what are you able to receive in the relationship and what's the best overall decision? Right. I'm not now I've worked with some people where you know the person is so narcissistic, it's like run while you can. Right. You know, because a lot of times to a they call it narcissist discard. They can discard people like a dirty tissue. I'm talking 40 years of marriage, 20. What but when their time when when you're no longer serving their purpose and something else or someone else will, they will, they can discard you. And but sometimes a narcissist will start rejecting, but then they haven't found a real other good place of narcissistic supply, or maybe their kids are still giving them narcissistic supply, and then they will kind of throw out crumbs of doing better, and then the person, like, oh, he's really changing. But it's really crumbs, and they haven't tested it.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and they haven't gotten to the root of because you know, like we we referred to addiction, like, well, you might not be addicted to that thing anymore, but it's on to the next. Yeah, or it's like you know, they choose healthier things to fuel it. Yes. So it looks different, and it might feel different.

SPEAKER_03

I'm not snorting coke anymore, but I'm I'm on my phone all the time. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Or I'm eating sugar all the time. Right. Or I'm, you know, whatever. Like, yeah. So yeah, I just think that because I've, you know, this is one that just really it's scary because, like you said, it can be so brutal to divorce, it can be so brutal for children, it can be, you know, it can be very life damaging. So it absolutely is. So any of you who feel like you might be experiencing this or have experienced this, a grace and compassion, show yourself all the love and strength. But make sure you have a really, really good support system and a really good kind of plan and really navigate through your own healing before you try to make a transition. Because I feel like that could be yeah, if you're too vulnerable at the time, it can it can be.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, you could be left with nothing. Yeah, and destructive, even in the divorce process and things.

SPEAKER_02

And um because they're the ones that'll keep on going just to go, just to be winning.

SPEAKER_03

And a lot, and a lot of times, especially the more grandiose, um, the um over a lot of times it might be by that time.

SPEAKER_02

Fighting over$20,000, but we've yeah, we've uh have quadrupled that in actual.

SPEAKER_03

I I know a couple like over over a million dollars and and attorneys and end up with the very settlement that she basically had said in the first place, I think this would be fair. She was a point of winning, just so you know, they have to win, they have to win every argument, they have to win uh every every battle, they have to win.

SPEAKER_02

They have to do the last word, they have to have the last say, they have to so like anytime you find yourself in conversation, it's better. Or to just leave it because it's otherwise it's just gonna be a waste of energy.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and and it it's just gonna all come come back at you because they have to win. Like I said, the one that needs to be a good thing. He was right getting close to being absolutely forced. Yeah. That he was either gonna be drug into court or he had to sign this divorce decree. And I mean, called her up and the person who hadn't talked to her besides emails in almost two years. Oh wow. Um called her up and just screamed her. And I told I I said he he is he is in narcissistic rage right now because he's being forced to do something, and it looks like you're winning. And he's looked at all of this as all his. Even though you've laid down your life, as he's the one who wanted you to quit quit a good career that you had in the beginning and be that stay at home wife, just take care of him, stay, take care of the kids, do all of that.

SPEAKER_02

But that's so they knew they were in their small little box.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, right. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh, we could go on and on and on.

SPEAKER_03

We could. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02

There's so many entire I I can think of like five people in my life that it's like, but they're all so very different. And it all showed up very differently for everyone. Yeah. The relationships are all different, they're not like that with each person. Yes. So it's just, it's it's a really interesting topic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I feel like we can't scratch the circuit. I know. And it really um, you know, it's really infiltrated our society to such a great degree. And um, and like like you said before, it can be, like I said, very damaging. And I I know part of the healing process I've you know learned over the years is if I can help them to see the puzzle piece, like, no, you just weren't having a divorce, you were discarded by a narcissist, it's a whole different ball.

SPEAKER_02

It's a whole different boggle. It's a whole different level of healing, it's a whole different experience.

Boundaries, Healing, and Resources

SPEAKER_03

Or or, you know, and and the one thing I I what I love to do, especially for young women, um, is I say I I I'm I give them narcissist re repellent. Okay, because I help explain, especially the the um the covert or mean the overt more of the love bombing, you know, if he comes on too fast, too quick, you know, every goes overboard and everything, you know, uh, just look up red flag. Look look for these red flags, you know. If um if you, you know, have a conversation about something and you know, he if you just try to challenge a little bit and say, well, I don't really agree with that. I don't think that what see the response, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And I think that's important because yes, there are relationships where people will go above and beyond and want to treat you and take you places and do things, but you have to have this level of discernment, I think, especially in those new phases where you're learning and exploring and getting to know. So, like I think the big key takeaways in any relationship to think about, you know, whether or not you have a voice, whether or not you're heard. You know, it's one thing to have a voice, it's another thing to be truly heard. Like, is that person hearing your perspective? And are they responding in a way to nurture that perspective?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know, is it all is it always about them, or are they willing to budge and compromise and be open, you know? And if is, you know, I feel like finances is a whole big thing that's really sticky. I mean, in a lot of different relationships. Um, because I think generationally we all have financial trauma in some way, shape, or form. You know, just generationally goes back to the Great Depression. Everyone experienced it in some way, you know. So I think that we all have something there. So just making sure that those types of things are fair and open and transparent and and don't rush.

SPEAKER_03

Don't rush. Because a lot of things you don't see right away, you don't see right away, and you have to experience life with people.

SPEAKER_02

It's like, yeah, when everything's great, that's a perfect time to get married. No, wait till shit gets messy. See if you can clean up the mess together, then get married. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Or if you know, if you're separated from someone and they're like they've started like kind of re-loving you or just oh, over things, don't just go see how long, see if you you kind of put some brakes on that. Because if they're a narcissist, they'll turn on you in a heartbeat.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you know, I didn't want you anyway. You're right, right.

SPEAKER_03

Or, you know, you probably got you know, someone else and blah, blah, blah. You know, if they turn on you that quick, it's not genuine.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the accusatory jealousy stuff is really prominent with the narcissist, right? Like the jealousy type personality.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah, because they they need it all. They want it all.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh, we could go on and on and on. If there's one thing or a couple things you want people to take away from today's conversation or to take it forward, any other books, any other resources, recommendations, what would that be?

Leaving Safely and Building Support

SPEAKER_03

I think, like I said, the one thing is, especially for those who've had parents, that maybe this has sparked maybe my mom was a narcissist or maybe my dad was. Like online, they really have some good differentiating, like, you know, uh the daughter of a narcissistic mother. How does that affect and where did that affect you? And what has it caused in your life? So you can be able to get well. You can get it. Perfectionism paradigm. Yeah. Or, you know, or a narcissistic dad. Or if you are, you know, a man or a woman in a relationship set that's, you know, you think has some of those narcissistic tendencies, do some study, look at it, you know, and it like I said, especially if you're not married, you have to really, you know, sometimes you're married, you have kids, you have a lot at stake and and a lot of different things. May not be as easy, but you know, especially, you know, if I'm talking with someone and they're in a real recent relationship and all the flags are, you know, they check all the boxes. I always say, you know, if you can check the box and say, well, I think it might be a rose because, oh, it has petals and it has thorns and it has these kind of, you know, well, it's probably a rose. And if you check all the boxes for someone you're seeing or of narcissism, you know, if if it hasn't run. I hate to say it. Get out, get out, run. And but do it, I always say like, do it like backing out of a room very carefully. Because you don't want to hit the narcissistic rage and and what they can what they can do to people now on social media or anything like that. You want to back out gracefully, take ownership. Yeah, I agree. This isn't working. I really need to do some work on myself, and I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna work on that now and you know, and just make it about you. Back out back out gracefully, you know, and then other ways to say, okay, how can I be more resilient if I'm I'm making a choice in this relationship, but do it, do it realistically, you know, and say, okay, but I have a need for more connection here. Um, you know, again, I don't recommend going out and having an affair, but look to your friends, look to other places where where you can find um more of that emotional support that you need.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, actually, we just had an event yesterday. Resilient retreat is a good um, I feel like I plug it all the time. Yeah, but it really is. Some of the more of um an organization, and we provide free programming for people that have survived trauma, abuse, helping professions, first responders, all the things. But, you know, we deal with a lot of and we have a lot of participants that do our programs that have had similar relationships, whether it was parental or you know, um, romantic and um free programs. You can call, you can screen in, you can see online, they're virtual. That's a great resource too.

SPEAKER_03

And I want to give you a couple classics related to physical abuse with a narcissist. Oh, god. So physical abuse with a narcissist. I've actually heard this before. Is I can't help it if you're black and blue, easy. Oh jeez. Another another classic is they won't actually hit you, but they will let a wall hit you. Like push you into the wall, push into the wall, because they don't they're they're too good a guy to hit you, but they'll throw you out of a car. Yeah, you know, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And they can be very physical, like backhanded, physical.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah. Or, you know, or it may start off at just like wall punching and big person punching a wall and yeah, because it really it's saying if you don't shut up, yeah, that you're this is what I can do to you.

SPEAKER_02

Ew, that's like the empty threat kind of thing.

Final Warnings, Worth, and Closure

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah, but it's not empty, and it will it will move forward. But a lot of times they won't hit you directly because then they would be the bad person. Okay, you know, but they will they will physically do a number of you.

SPEAKER_02

Well, we're gonna leave with that. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03

It's a warning. It's a warning.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my god. But you know, the great thing is there are so many resources out there now. Um, and if you do you feel like you need um or have experienced these types of relationships in your life, I think it's really important to seek the help that you need to be very gentle and strategic and you know, and just use discernment and don't blame yourself, you're not crazy. Yeah, you know, you can take your power back in an empowering way, meaning, you know, you can you can own that you're worthy of a better life. And I think that that is what I would like to put out in the universe with all of this. You know, if you've experienced it doesn't matter where the relationship came from in your life, you are absolutely worthy of a better life. You're worthy of being treated well. You never should be told that you're crazy. You know, you're you deserve to be seen, to be heard, to be validated, to be loved, and to be nurtured. And um, thank you, Dr. Kathy, for being here today. Um, we could go on and on and on, but that's gonna be a wrap for today. Thank you.